Strategy Session: Did the defensive playcalling actually improve?
by Bud Elliott on Nov 23, 2008 10:35 PM EST
in FSU Football
107 comments
Tomahawk Nation writer CaStauch went inside our defensive gameplan.
So I went to the game, then watched the CSTV Maryland replay today at 4
As usual, FSU represents well up here in the DC metro area. Lots of grads/bandwagon fans that converted when we would venture up here and routinely smack around UVa and UMd.
I think this week was a vindication of the critique that has been posited and discussed on these boards throughout the week. Specifically on defense, where Mickey was unfairly by some eyes disparaged for his stubbornness, lack of creativity, and general oldness . Yeah, we dominated in that phase of the game. But the method by which we dominated was indicative of what a Mickey Andrews defense denotes.
Everette Brown is a perfect example of what I’m trying to get at here. He earned his pending paycheck last night. In person, this guy is impressive . He reminds me of a cross between Peter Boulware with his hand on the ground and Dwight Freeney. His speed rush was unblockable; we were guaranteed a sack every time they isolated him against either tackle. His footwork and intuition only accentuated the obvious physical disparity between him and everyone else on the field, as he would toy with the opposing linemen, get him to cross his feet, and then swim or speed by him. Admittedly, putting him at the DT position with Mincey, Moffett, and White may be the best schematic quirk we’ve employed in a while: it gave us 4 DE’s that each have superior 1on1 technique. This only works well when you have a first rounder like Brown to as the fulcrim, however, because he generates enough worry to shake the whole line’s confidence and divert their attention enough to accentuate the advantage that our other 1on1’s should take advantage of.
With ample pressure from the front four, the vanilla scheme behind the LOS was able to succeed. FSUncensored’s comparison to Miami’s ubiqitous man under during the early decade is spot on. Press coverage by the DB’s, not necessarily to remove the player as an option, but essentially to rush the play even more, skewing the timing between the QB and the WRs that is already stressed due to the lack of time in the pocket. Clogging the middle of the field with athletic linebackers playing a rough man zone, taking away the middle of the field from a quarterback that doesn’t have the composure, arm strength, or sure footing to drive it outside. Deep safety or robber-1 coverage from the back behind, a conservative aspect that works when you have DL pressure, changed timing, middle contain.
We didn’t try to fool anyone. We ran this look for much of the game (we used the robber coverage with Ingram, but switched to deep halves when Myron came back). But the reason it worked was not due to schematic advantage or precise response. It was due to our personnel advantage.
We had a verifiable game changer on the field. Brown last night was the definition of the necessary element of Mickey Andrew’s defense. Everything we did worked because of the havoc he wrought. Without him beating anyone he lined up against, wherever he lined up, our man coverage doesn’t work. The old hook that you can only successfully cover your man for under 3 seconds proves, true, and we get torched by crossing and rub routes. The deep halves we played get exposed, with multiple verticals or play action.
Whittled down to its core, the offense’s advantage over the defense in football is directly related to time and space . Each offense attempts to generate a temporal or spatial advantage against the defense in a unique way. Either they use the width of the field and create pockets of nuermical and directional advantage in space, or they use the duration of the play to create pockets of the same. A game changer on defense, one of those elite players that is a significantly better than anyone on the field, can singlehandedly remove the ability of the offense to use either time or space to its advantage. A dominant DE or CB do this most directly. The DE disrupts the timing of the offense, compressing its ability to make decisions and find those pockets of advantage, and the CB eliminates the spatial aspect: shrinking the field to 27 yards. Compressing the field to 27 yards makes finding that same advantagous situation very difficult. Brown was the cause of our advantage last night. Mickey Andrews’ defense is predicated upon each player’s ability to beat his opposite. His scheme does not creatively or through subterfuge put his players in their best chance of success. Instead, it places the onus on each player to exhibit perfect execution and superior athletic ability. This can work when you have a dominant force on your side, because it disrupts the natural advantage of space, time, and direction that the offense possesses. But when you don’t have that trump card, the inevitable weight of personal responsibility and the stress of perfect execution is too heavy to bare. Good defensive coordinators use schematic know-how and creative intuition to limit that weight. When you put your athletic players in places that highlights their strengths and diminishes their weaknesses, you get great players making great plays. Mickey’s way can work. But it puts the albatross on the game changing player instead of the coach. It’s the player’s responsibility to highlight the abilities of his teammates and mask their weaknesses, through his disruption. I’ve got impressions about our offense and employment of personnel on either side of the ball too, but I wanna post this first and see what the response is. If I’m completely off base, I don’t want to do it twice more.
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Can you imagine what this defense could accomplish with a progressive defensive coordinator?
Mickey’s scheme is incredibly risky (and somewhat lazy). I copied this because I think you captured what many have tried to say.
Good defensive coordinators use schematic know-how and creative intuition to limit that weight. When you put your athletic players in places that highlights their strengths and diminishes their weaknesses, you get great players making great plays. Mickey’s way can work. But it puts the albatross on the game changing player instead of the coach. It’s the player’s responsibility to highlight the abilities of his teammates and mask their weaknesses, through his disruption.
What does it say that cover-1 robber is considered "creative"?
I will say, however, that we did do a better job at masking our blitzes and the timing in which we used them. The Verdell sack was a good example. We showed Nicholson and Watson, and Verdell held up as much as he could (he still flinched towards the line, I attribute this to the pressure that CTC puts on his players to make plays instead of execution.) But, once again, our blitzes were more effective because of the chaos that EB was creating. Honestly, the nature of the OL position and the overt size of the players inclines me to look at them as twitchy, easily spooked Herd animals, like Wildebeests or something. Crude, but I think it illustrates the reaction and loss of mind and composure they have when there’s a lion charging them (EB)
Hey! I played OLine!
I can’t wait until Chuck is gone. Let’s hope he doesn’t poison Bradham.
In addition to not trying to guess the snap count and instead allowing our speed to make up for the lack of perfect guessing (what a novel concept), I think we did a better job of blitzing less; both in frequency and numerosity. How often, if at all, did we bring 6 or more rushers?
by Bud Elliott on Nov 23, 2008 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
Haha, no offense meant bro. I guess I shoulda used prey animals instead of herd animals to more clearly explain my point. In PP, your job is to basically take a hit, take a charge, play defense, react. Now, I would hardly qualify our OL in run blocking as “herd animals” (mainly cuz Trickett would find me, hunt and eat me, and wear my skin for the irony). I’ll also qualify my post in saying that the trenches are far and away the most important players on the team.
Ok, that being said, I don’t think we brought a full house rush once the entire game. Necessity breeds invention, and the cause of the necessity was being routinely burnt when we used the full house in the BC game, again and again.
2nd highest paid position in football is Left Tackle-- and FSU "produced" the best ever: Walter Jones
Do you think this D could be USC good if we had a progressive playcaller who would challenge
Do you care if I add this quote to your article?:
Pittsburgh blitzed early but, as LeBeau pointed out, the Seahawks were using “max” protection blocking schemes, and “we didn’t see anything good that could come from just constantly banging our heads against a wall.”
by Bud Elliott on Nov 23, 2008 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
Pass protection is far and away the most difficult thing to do in football. On my old computer I had the 2006 West Virginia U playbook in its entirety (it leaked on the Mainboard). For each formation and each specific play, the OL had to recognize the specific lineup out of dozens of potential alignments. Once they did that, they had to coordinate their actions together due to the specific alignment that they saw. Within that, there were specific actions taken by each player that were dependent on the total actions of the line. It was amazingly complex and I can see the earmarks of that recognition and coordination in how our offensive line works (watch them pre play). That’s expected, given we have the OL coach that designed that aspect of WVU’s playbook.
Once again, I wrote that herd animal comment facetiously and for laughs. Being a former QB, I can assure you that I’ve got respect for the BOs up front.
Feel free to add/do whatever you need to do. How does it fit? As an example of the limitations of defensive scheme?
Do you think we teach dual-reads in pass pro? I occasionally think so, but I hope not. It’s a fairly difficult concept to teach, specifically to college kids with the limited practice hours. With all the pointing we do I tend to believe we’re primarily a man- protection team.
I guess the quote was more appropriate for last week’s “strategy.”
We SHOULD do the typical mistimed creep-up, the back out at the snap a step or two, and then blitz from that position. The Giants killed the pats with this last year.
The one offensive change I want to see, for next year, is increased emphasis on cut-back running and increased cutting on the back/side of the line.
by Bud Elliott on Nov 24, 2008 12:02 AM EST up reply actions
Then this is a personel issue,
Not a coaching issue. If you are dependent on how players play, which all coaches are, then having them play poorly (i.e BC) is not the coaches fault. Let’s look at Maryland’s defense for example. They play a zone, similar (but not equal) to BC and Wake. It’s the one scheme that has been able to take our offense out of the game. However, their players just aren’t as good therefor we beat them. It wasn’t the scheme, it was how the players executed and performed. I told you I agreed with you that we blitz too much, but in the long run, it is a players issue. Mickey’s scheme is fine if Nicholson learns to drop back in coverage or our defensive tackles get a push.
We all agree that Jimbo has been a pretty good offensive cord. However, his quick hit scheme in the passing game doesn’t work if we have no slot receivers, or if they can’t catch the ball. A scheme is only as good as the players make it.
There is nothing terribly wrong with the def. play calling, just the players. Also, tell me Bud, what kind of coverage is going to be ‘creative’ enough for you? We run Cover 2 switches, man under, and we ran robber. We have occasionally thrown a 3 deep coverage in and we will also play man up. What are you looking for? This has gotten to the point of absurdity with you guys. “Our defense only works if they don’t contain our pass rush.” That’s like saying “Our defense only works if they don’t complete their passes.” That has nothing to do with scheme.
Bradham is under developed (as a player) as it is right now, he can only get better (referring to the post below).
The Tampa Bay Bucs
have been one of the best defenses every year, many thanks to the scheme. Scheme are far different in the NFL when teams don’t really run the spread or the option and the blitz schemes are insanely more complicated. However The Bucs are only as good as their LB’s drop and the CB’s jam. If they don’t do that, the scheme fails. If you want to argue Mickey has underdeveloped players, fine, but he has still pumped out more defensive talent than any other team. It’s not the scheme, its the players.
If we don't have the talent, shouldn't we adjust the scheme?
I agree that Coach Andrews has been a great conduit of talent to the NFL. In fact, during the past couple of years, it seems that most of our first round draft pics were from the defensive side of the ball. And how many times has the defense saved the offense over the past several years or at least kept it close. Coach Andrews deserves a tremendous amount of respect and (as the Maryland game showed) he can still call a great game.
Here’s my question. Do you trust this defense/staff against the Gators? What if we end up in the Gator Bowl against Texas Tech? Or West Virginia? Could he put together a game plan to beat Boise State with these players? If the players can’t make the schemes work, how long do you give them before you adjust your scheme to fit the players you have? If the players are not executing and performing, how much of the responsibility is with the coaches? There’s always the question of assessment and recruiting but, I’ve already loaded in more than one question.
First of all....
We have the 5th best defense in the nation. It is working. We just aren’t as dominant as you guys may like. 2nd What would we adjust to? a 3-4 where we give our LB’s more room to move? A blitz scheme the hopes our ends get there but if not then the qb has all day to throw? One of the reasons we do blitz so much, even on max protect, is to free up our play makers on the line. If Nicholson or Watson blitz on the tackle, as a tackle you have an extra guy to account for, meanwhile EB is tearing off the edge.
I don’t trust our personnel against UF, but then again you could give me the USC defense (which many people think is the best in the country) and UF still scores 30 points right now. What defense do you trust? What kind of scheme would you like to see a coach come in and teach that will stop an offense like the ones you named (minus WVU who has a terrible offensive line and no receivers). You guys freak out and call for the firing of Andrews, but you have no solution. You may throw out a coaches name, but please tell me how it may differ. Other than blitzing TOO much which I have already stated I disagree with.
So again, I think its a myth that we aren’t making this work. Yes our defense has lost two games (with no help from our offense) but we are still 5th in the nation. <Cue the “We play in the ACC” comment from Bud>
Look at the teams that are ahead of us….. Boston College ACC, USC (admittedly a very good defense, but the offenses just aren’t great in the PAC10 like usual.) TCU….enough said., Alabama (They did shut down a UGA team with a good offense, but who outside of that?), and Penn St. (Given Michigan offense is fantastic……)
I would only agree to that argument if a team from the Big 12 was ahead of us. The stats are ‘padded’ but they are ‘padded’ for all of the teams at the top. We have a good defense and a good defensive Coordinator.
Actually...
I think there were several posts last week about what some of us thought were problems with the defense. Also offering courses of actions to get it corrected.
Like bringing
in a specific person. You have no idea what that guys philosphy of defense would be or how he would do with a specific level of talent. Suggesting the Iowa cord. over Mickey is absurd considering the state that both defense are in.
Well said UNFNOLE
I was disappinted by our def showing last week but I think most posters were a little too harsh in their criticism. If Mickey got credit for the loss last week then he should get credit for the win this week.
Some of the problem last week was in our schemes true. However it looked like lot was on our players too. How many missed tackles were there? Our players just couldn’t man up when it counted. Also, look at the NFL express that has been our Def. That is Mickey. These boys aren’t going to the NFL out of high school. They ARE being developed right here in Tally.
I hope Bobby and MA stick around for 2 more years. Ride Ponder out and let Jimbo take over with his own recruits after that.
Good thing the coaches don't recruit the personnel.
They just get 15 players per year based on a lottery system.
Your Right
Lets go after slower, softer players. That will make our team better. Or lets have 11 all americans on our defense. WHY DIDN’T MICKEY THINK OF THAT??? The teams of the 90’s still had defensive flaws. Lets have a defensive scheme that is set up to succeed even when are players don’t show up. n fact, Lets get that defensive scheme that succeeds with 15 and 16 year olds. It’s fullproof and it’s the perfect scheme. Not only will we be geared toward defending spread offenses, we will also be schemed to stop run heavy offenses, options, and maybe even the A-11 offense. Your living in fantasy land. If you step back, everyone in their right mind would think you all are absurd to fire Mickey Andrews. You are looking at this too hard. Be objective.
You're the one that said it was a personnel issue.
I just wanted to point out that part of the coaches’ job description is to bring talent in and develop it.
About the objectivity. I’m going to start putting down the defenses stats in this post and not edit it. We’ll both find out at the exact same time how this defense has performed in the past few years.
Let’s begin with 2002. Number 1, that’s as far back as ESPN goes with its numbers. Number 2, Mickey turned 60 that year.
2002- 24+ given up 6 out of 14 games (4 losses)
19.27 ppg (median of 20)
2003- 24+ given up 4 out of 13 games (1 loss)
16.6 ppg (median of 16)
This season does not get enough credit from me or anybody else. We were 10-3 with 2 losses to Miami.
2004- 24+ given up 0 times out of 12 games
14.08 ppg ( median of 16)
9-3 this year… again better than we give it credit for
2005- 24+ given up 7 out of 13 games (4 losses)
22 ppg (median of 24)
2006- 24+ given up 7 out of 13 games (5 losses)
19.85 ppg (median of 24)
2007- 24+ given up 7 out of 13 games (6 losses)
22.92 ppg (median of 24)
2008- 24+ given up 4 out of 11 games so far (2 losses)
18.55 ppg (median of 20)
Ok, these numbers don’t account for offensive turnovers leading to points or special teams, so they can improve. I’ll just put it out there and let you be the objective one.
What are the national medians
Fair….Lets look at other teams and see if we are truly being ‘objective’ than. I will list three defenses that we think of as good.
USC
02 – 17.7ppg
03 – 18.2ppg
04 – 13.0ppg (Natl Champs)
05 – 22.6ppg (loose to TX in NatlChamp game)
06 – 14.7 ppg
07 – 15.4 ppg (16.9/yr)
08 – 7ppg (which shows how good this defense is. Excluding this year because its unheard of) we are less than 4 points ppg different off of probably the best defense this decade. We are probably less than that if you account for the first few years of the decade. Wow, thats terrible???? You think less than 4 points pg is bad enough to fire our DC?
I was going to look at a couple of more teams, but ran out of time.
Mickey coaches DB's and has really done a poor job developing them.
2004
Tony Carter – 4 stars – Above average, not “good”.
JR Bryant – 4 stars – BUST
Trevor Ford – 4 stars – BUST
Kenny Ingram – 4 stars – Pretty much a bust. Some contributions this year.
Joe Manning – 3 stars – Garbage /Transferred
Darius McClure – 3 stars – Poor, and now injured.
2005
Jamie Robinson – 4 stars – Below average safety, average at corner.
Clarence Ward – 4 stars – Off team. garbage.
Michael Ray Garvin – 4 stars – Laughably bad.
Korey Magnum – 3 stars – Just wait until we’re forced to depend on Mangum.
2006
Myron Rolle – 5 stars – Taking 5* db’s and making them above average.
Ochuko Jenije – 4 stars – Not promising
Anthony Leon – 4 stars – He couldn’t even take one snap away from Roger Williams. Off team.
Patrick Robinson – 4 stars – Outstanding, and the funny thing is that he was very good even as a Freshman with little coaching influence from Mickey yet. Did Mickey ’develop" him? You decide.
Mister Alexander – 3 stars – Terrible. Non contributor.
Mickey will be able to reap what he has sewn— in 2009. Nice development. there… Ugh. See what I mean?
So get a DB coach?
It’s a lot less risky then overhauling a Defense that doesn’t need it and solves that problem. I think some of them are great athletes but not great football players. I think you need to look at what we are recrutiing as well (which does need to be evaluated). Are we going after athletes who succeeded in h.school because they were more athletic than everyone (Debose may be one of these guys, While I come from Seminole County, the athletes aren’t the same as they are around the rest of the state) or because they are football players that happen to be good athletes?
DBs
I think DBs are a gamble. Usually you take a great athlete and try to make him a good DB. I don’t think most DB recruits are known for their technique. Some learn, some don’t. FSU is known for putting out good DBs. I can’t think of another school that consistantly puts out solid DBs. Granted Cromartie is that last great DB from FSU and he was a local guy. but Mickey does have a lot of history with great DBs.
He's fallen off...
Has he produced any in the last 4 years? Cromartie was drafted off raw physical ability alone.
by Bud Elliott on Nov 24, 2008 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
Also, tell me Bud, what kind of coverage is going to be ‘creative’ enough for you? We run Cover 2 switches, man under, and we ran robber. We have occasionally thrown a 3 deep coverage in and we will also play man up. What are you looking for?
Quotes from our own players and opponents from past games indicate that our coaches aren’t doing a good job disguising what we run. Additionally, I don’t think our guys understand the defense, and that to me is a coaching issue. There is a disconnect.
You know as well as I do that we play cover-0 extremely often. That’s a major gripe.
CaStauch is correct in saying that we could do a much better job disguising coverages, mixing our schemes, paying attention to detail, and making sure that our players understand our schemes. This staff must do a better job of ensuring that the defense “gets it.” This 80% man coverage, vanilla stuff doesn’t cut it.
If Maryland had gone Max Pro, like the smart teams do against us, they’d likely have put up 400 yards.
You can't say "get DB Coach"
We’d have to cut someone who doesn’t coach a position…
by Bud Elliott on Nov 24, 2008 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
the same thing.
I looked to me like we did the same thing we do evey week, it just worked this one. I dont thin it will next week because UF is good. FSU is like a train. when it gets momentum it keep building up and gets harder to stop. Look at the games we lost. WF the game was over after the first off play. If we can start to move foward vs UF we might have a chance.
After watching the game for a second time (This time sober)
I agree with your post 100%. I never thought about it that way, but it was clearly shown on this game. When we are putting pressure on the QB like we did then we our defense is unstoppable, however, if the opposing team can contain EB (either by double teaming him or using his agressiveness against him with draws or quick screens) the we are left too exposed. I think your last paragraph sums up our defense pretty well.
Mickey Andrews’ defense is predicated upon each player’s ability to beat his opposite. His scheme does not creatively or through subterfuge put his players in their best chance of success. Instead, it places the onus on each player to exhibit perfect execution and superior athletic ability. This can work when you have a dominant force on your side, because it disrupts the natural advantage of space, time, and direction that the offense possesses. But when you don’t have that trump card, the inevitable weight of personal responsibility and the stress of perfect execution is too heavy to bare. Good defensive coordinators use schematic know-how and creative intuition to limit that weight. When you put your athletic players in places that highlights their strengths and diminishes their weaknesses, you get great players making great plays. Mickey’s way can work. But it puts the albatross on the game changing player instead of the coach. It’s the player’s responsibility to highlight the abilities of his teammates and mask their weaknesses, through his disruption.
Bottom line
First, I have to say I love this site. It’s really nice not to have to read a sports writer’s brief opinion written at an eighth grade reading level about what I already knew.
Second, I think this post hits the nail squarely on the head. We seem to have one plan of attack and it doesn’t seem to take a great deal of creativity to beat it, even with lesser talent (The Boston College loss is a great example). I have to admit that I was surprised by their success against Maryland. Friedgen, the offensive genius, seems a lot smarter and I suspected that he would adjust to our defensive game plan by the end of the first quarter. Is it really as simple as EB’s an unstoppable force of nature? Where was he during the Tech and BC losses? ChileanNole is right on the money there. We seem to be easily exposed with a few wrinkles.
Third, Meyer & Mullen didn’t have trouble figuring out how to beat the scheme last year. Unfortunately, their talent level will nullify ours rather quickly and we don’t seem to have a Plan B. If our usual approach doesn’t work, (and I think the Maryland game will do nothing but encourage Coach Andrews to stay the course), it will be a very long day.
Fourth, I really don’t like to take a crap on a great victory like this and have had a warm glow all weekend. 8-3 never looked so good! So props to the defense and, of course Mr. Rolle! Go Noles!
By the way, major props to CaStauch for great post!
An excellent read. And anyone who can use the phrase “generate a temporal or spatial advantage” in a football discussion gets my respect!
I sat behind the UMd bench and quickly came to the realization that UMd was not going to beat a high school team. The most movement I saw on the bench was in the 4th quarter when a player was trying to get warm…it didn’t work. My Mom calls this the curse of the black pajamas and it’s tough to argue with her. Reports were that UMd had a bad week of practice. Call Bobby a sooth-sayer as he thought FSU might catch UMd down after the UNC game.
FSU on the other hand came out on fire and stayed that way all through the game. It was nice to see the players walk over to the FSU section and cheer them on after the game. I saw a few players stay a bit after and shake hands with many of the fans.
UMd fans are getting fed up with Friedgen (one in particular serenaded the UMd bench for about 5 min before a cop asked him to stop and the call in shows were rife with disbelief at the team’s performance). I can’t say I blame them but so much. On one hand why should UMd expect to be better than a 7 or 8 win season average? What advantage do they hold over any other school? However, when your coach is reported this way:
Florida State defensive lineman Everette Brown finished with 31/2 sacks on the night. Friedgen said Florida State moved Brown from the edge of the pass rush to the interior, something the coach didn’t believe Brown had done all season.
Followed by:
After the game, Maryland Coach Ralph Friedgen, appearing beaten and talking in a solemn tone, said it “boggles my mind that we can play so poorly in such a big game.” Friedgen placed the blame squarely on his players, saying they “did not compete, did not play with any effort.”
You have to wonder about the guy. How can you just completely ignore the last two weeks of film and then blame the players? That borders on mental illness in the coaching profession. I understand that the UMd line has been doing better and, as a result, Turner has looked better, but this is not an excuse (referring to EB):
“He got singled up in there and beat some of our guards”, Friedgen said.
(Note: I’m adding all this to my theorum that fat coaches can’t win in football because how can you be motivated by somebody that can’t get enough motivation to go to the gym?)
I was glad to see only one 3 down linemen line. Mickey started resorting to this last year when we had depth issues on the line. However, he only did it once and went more with the 4 DE line instead. I think this is much more effective as Mickey usually doesn’t bring a 4th rusher on the 3-down line (You might as well drop all 11 into coverage).
Surrency better hope he gets that extra year of eligibility. He lost us 4 points again by going up for a ball while falling away instead of planting his feet and jumping. It’s not completely his fault, he just hasn’t been around football enough to get this sort of thing down, but he does need the extra time. Kudos to him on his blocking. He crushed a DB on Reed’s long run.
To an earlier poster, I saw the same thing. Two UMd men in motion and neither one got set before the snap. This followed Brown being tackled by the UMd left tackle and no flag.
(Note: All quotes from the Sunday version of the Washington Post)
3 down v. 4 down.
Agreed. We finally rushed FOUR, not 6, not 2.
I am not even sure Surrency will be here this weekend, much less this year.
Holding my judgment
I’m not going to make any more comments on the scheme of this defense until after Saturday. The past is the past, but I’m willing to give Mickey and Co. this next game to redeem themselves. We will see what they are really made of this weekend. I ultimately judge the team and coaches on what they do against UF, not Maryland. Let’s hope they don’t fail miserably like last year.
A serious question:
In watching NFL coverage yesterday I was hearing them discuss the Eagles and Donovan McNabb’s woes. I heard one of the ESPN guys say that the week of turmoil had really gotten to McNabb and that he is only human, people are going to have a reaction to things said about them. I guess that reminded me of the point I started making last week and a few others echoed it. When the fight happened and all the terrible press started, is it not likely these young men who were still playing BC had their preparation disrupted and began to feel like… Oh no, here we go again! Being Homecoming week and all… it just seemed to me like they were shell-shocked from the beginning and it was a self fulfilling prophecy what happened. BC saw the opening and pounced. Now… against MD we were up against the wall and pride became an issue as well as the GOOD NEWS and GOOD PRESS we got with Myron Rolle. It seemed that FSU was focused and feeling a bit of the swagger that helped us over the hump. Now, I am not going to debate the defensive schemes and all that, it has been done to death and I will admit, I am not educated enough in that to argue who is right and wrong. I just think that before we ge to the point of calling for heads to roll, we should take into account ALL the circumstances surrounding a game. If that fight never happens, if that stupid personal foul after a 3rd down stop in 4th qtr never happens, ??? we could easily be 9-2. Oh heck, I have to add it… if that fumble in the endzone against GaTech had of never happened… 10-1!!!!! lol
Life in the land of wolf
Where coaches are only responsible when something good happens.
If you want to take into account “ALL the circumstances” let’s remember that this defense was supposed to be better than it is. Regardless of the expectations for the team, or what other schools are doing, this experienced defense has performed to its ability for about 10 quarters this season.
The young offense has had to carry this defense too many times this year (NC State, Miami, etc).
it's kinda like Margaritaville... only in the Mtns.
At any rate, my question was concerning hindsight and all that 20/20 jazz. Do you think that the very POOR performance last week had a wee bit more to do with the whole circumstances than was given credit for here? I was not sending Mickey a bouquet of flowers or anything because of the MD game, but I also was not calling for the troops to run him out after BC. I just found the convo on McNabb interesting and the panel there seemed to give it some creedence. ??? these are much younger men and I would assume maturity is also part of what is developing in these 18-23 year olds.
It's a good point.
I was joking around a bit after what we talked about last week.
I think the prudent reaction is somewhere between the two extremes of “let them stay” and “fire em all.”
If Mickey can consistently fit his gameplan to the teams we play and their new styles of offense, then of course he should stay. However, BC seemed to me to be the culmination of several years of being incapable to do that.
I enjoy a good natured joust as much as...
anyone… especially when we both are using Seminole Spears! lol Have a good day!
one good thing
at least we can look at this season as a good step foward. Even if we lose to UF we are 8-4 and going to a bowl game. We might make it to the ACCCG or even the OB if the cards are played right. Right now BC lost its QB and has to relay on a Fr QB. Thats good new to us. Maryland is coming off a lose and also BC is ranked. Maryland has done great things when playing a ranked team. The stars are falling into place. If we play a hard game we even have a chance at beating the Jugernut of UF. All we need to do is get some Criptonight and EB is its name.
Go Noles.
Agreed to a point
If you told me in August the Noles would be 8-3 going into the Florida game with a decent shot of going to Tampa and playing one of two teams they’ve either already beaten or lost to on a last second play I’d would be thrilled. (Sorry for the incredibly run-on nature of that sentence, by the way).
However, I’m still slighly disappointed in this season. We gave away two games at home on primetime television, and the Georgia Tech game we were dominated by an option team. I usually hate playing the “we should be unbeated if…” card, but we should be unbeaten with better gameplanning.
That being said, I’m very anxious to see our offense next year, especially the o-line.
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Nov 24, 2008 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
Since we're talking about schemes...
I’m going to go ahead and say it. Everette Brown HAS to play defensive tackle for 30% of the snaps or more. Here’s my thinking:
Everette likes to speed rush around his man to get to the quarterback. This leaves him incredibly vulnerable against the run. If we keep him at DE the entire game, he will overpursue take himself out of the play a significant percentage of the time. If we shift him inside, and he can beat his man there, we can still pressure the passing game, create havoc in the backfield, and aren’t as prone to getting gashed by the option.
Hmmmm
I like it. Sort of like how the Giants used Justin Tuck last season (when they had Strahan and Umenyoria). Tuck would play some D-end, and some D-tackle (usually in the 3 technique spot, but occassionally at the nose to decoy)
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Nov 24, 2008 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
I agree...
and I think it helps our blitz package as well. Florida’s tackles would likely be able to run our DE out of the play if needed and our DT, as previously mentioned, are not the forte of our defense. If you move Brown inside, he automatically gains the attention of 2 offensive linemen. If you put him on the same side as Moffet and then have Nicholson blitz…it would be a nice three man game that would give that side of the offensive line fits. Having an athletic defensive tackle completely disrupts an offensive line. If we look at the BC game and the impact that Raji had, one can easily see what disrupting the middle of the O-line does. But I think the judicious use of an athletic freak like Brown in the middle can be disorienting, especially if they shift to it late.
We did that this week
If you were watching everette was lined up at DT a number of times against Maryland….Including his first sack of the nigh.
I feel like I'm piling on.
Mickey is a great man and has been a great defensive coordinator in his career. He deserves a lot of respect and a great pension package.
But when the head coach of your chief rival can hold a press conference and basically say ’It’s Monday and we already know exactly what their defense is going to do,’ then there is a problem.
Is that what Urban said just now?
I saw him talking on ESPNNews a few minutes ago.
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Nov 24, 2008 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
Yes.
I was watching that too. He said the defense did what they’ve done for years. Same schemes basically, but with very good athletes and solid tacklers. He went on to say that the offense a bit more unpredictable because of the single-wing and option style combined with the normal attack. Actually said our scheme was somewhat like theirs on offense.
Urban... Kenny Chesney minus hat and worthy talent
He is such a likable guy. I know, we don’t want coaching hires based on saint status, but really… when you watch and listen to him, where is this chip he has coming from? Florida likes that type I guess (Spurrier). It would do my heart good to see the Gator royalty given a good ol’ fashioned dadgum horsewhippin’. (pardon my language, I get worked up)
he really said that?
well i hope that lights a fire under mickey’s ass, not that he should need one for our biggest rival
You are
Urbans comments were intended to be those of respect….Mickeys not hiding anything….we play solid balanced D and it is working as we are in the top 10 all year in total D…..Just deal with it guys the d is not THAT bad.
Personnel Changes on Defense
What did you guys think about Ingram at Safety? I thought he looked explosive, rangy, and had good read and reaction while he was in. He was in on three tackles and read the path of the ball and the intention of the QB on his INT really well.
I think the hesitency that we had with putting him at safety because of his size is due to the intransigent demands that Mickey and Mickey’s scheme put on our safeties. I think his size alone would lend an intimidation factor on deep crosses, and his height and perceived reaction skills would be valuable on deep balls.
He wouldn’t do well at Man to Man coverage, though. And before this game, in which we ran the deep halves (much more conducive to our talent set, btw) that would’ve been a deal breaker.
Guys, not ignoring y'all.
Major food poisoning last night. Literally just woke up. Missed all my classes. Very dehydrated. Running some errands.
Ouch
Feel better Uncensored. We need you at full strength for Gator Week.
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Nov 24, 2008 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
that sucks dude
food poisoning is not fun.
by andy_wooster on Nov 24, 2008 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
To beat Florida and Tebow
we need to, in Mickey’s words, “make him get up to see what happened.” Dirty play, late hits, I don’t care. Just hit him. Obviously don’t want to hurt him, wasn’t my intent with this, but we HAVE to hit him hard and often.
Dirty Plays
is football. Football isn’t a ‘clean’ sport. However, LATE HITS are absurd. They will move the ball alllll day long if we give them the yards.
Definitly
I hope we pop Tebow all day long. I do have to admit I like Tebow a lot. I got to watch him play week in and week out for 3 years in high school. He is a good guy and a great college player.
However, he is pretty resilient and we won’t make him regret running if nobody has been able to do so the last 3 years. He dishes out just as much punishment as he receives. I would rather us worry about tackling him instead of punishing him, but if we can do both, more power to the guys.
Tebow will get his yards...
we have to prevent the big play, not have the mental errors seen in the BC game and we need to get Tebow off the field by stopping drives. The longer their offense is able to stay on the field we’ll be in trouble. I see us having difficulty coming back against their defense. However, I do see a lot of similarities between these teams…highly athletic teams that play incredibly fast. Keeping Tebow second guessing himself, putting him on the ground (legally) and having our offense hold onto the ball will keep us in the game. Plus, it would be nice to see us reverse the field a couple of times with turnovers. It would also be nice to see our punt unit have the game of their lives this weekend as well. Just a few thoughts.
Comment from Mickey
Q: Are there any weaknesses?
Andrews: We have been looking at their film since Sunday and we haven’t found any yet. They are not as good at time out as some people are. That might be the only thing we have found so far – we are even with them there.
I am not sure he would respond honestly
to this even if there were. Gives away too much of game plan.
I do think there
are plenty of weaknesses. They aren’t great at just straight up running the ball. Harvin get’s his yard on little swing passes and getting him outside.
They are great if they can solo the first level.
Mincey and the DT’s (Maybe McCray?) really need to step up. If they have to double one of those two, we have a better shot.
Mincey is a big body
but either his technique isn’t very good or he just isn’t strong. He and Thacker get blocked too easily.
Agreed, but if we continue to have our DT's guess, I'd have Mincey guessing.
If we get into their backfield, we could cause havoc.
Which brings up a good point...
you don’t have to 300+ to be an effective DT…You have to be active, meaning you occupy space and blockers, allowing your line backers to flow behind you. Having good hands, quick feet and understanding leverage can take you a long way as a DT. It is your job to secure a gap (A or B depending if you’re lined up in a 1 or 3 technique) and to occupy your offensive lineman. That guard may be bigger than you, but if you understand if he is trying to pin your outside shoulder and you’re able to leverage and pin his outside shoulder you are occupying the space that he wants to clear. Huge defensive tackles are nice, but not required if the player understands run blocking, pass blocking and an offensive line’s blocking schemes.
Yes, as soon as Seminoles.com posts them. Is there a different e-mail I can send you correspondence?
i’m a novice when it comes to the internet. You should find some way to make a @tomahawknation.com email. I’d rock that.
I guess if the UVa account doesn’t cut it, I can make a gmail one. I’ve got like 2600+ messages in there and I don’t check that email terribly often, but I’ll make sure to do that if im missing important stuff your sending
I'll look into that.
My internet skills aren’t great, however, so don’t expect much.
by Bud Elliott on Nov 25, 2008 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
Green Bay Packer game is pertinent to our interests tonight
They lead the league in virtually every Pass D stat. They run primarily press man to man. They have two of the best corners. Do they vary their look behind the press?
I’m gonna watch their technique, their adjustments, and their safety play behind them. Most of the value of a man to man press D comes from the subtle movements of the LBs and Safeties behind the pressers. With the pass rush and the stressed timing due to the press coverage, its asking a lot for the QB to recognize the precise movements and locations of the safeties and LBs. If disguised well, they can cherry pick.
DO this
but also remember that these are pro’s and their full time job is to learn this. It is way different than college man, and to make comparisons of schemes isn’t exactly accurate. I will point out how (since nobody else will) when you go into your rants.
BINGO,
it is very important to be able to teach your schemes to the players in the limited amount of time available.
by Bud Elliott on Nov 24, 2008 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
Watch to see if they play leverage
WR aligns wide, play him inside, aligns tight, play him outside, etc.
by Bud Elliott on Nov 24, 2008 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
Have to say I'm not totaly buying the spin here.
The bottom line is irrefutable. We line up and say beat me if you can. I think the point is being slightly exagerated and should be brought back into balance.
That our scheme is vanilla.
We do run different looks…always have. What is fundamentally the same is that we play balanced defense (I don’t think that’s a bad thing). We mix in blitzes (on various downs and distances) occasionally play all out man, but mostly leave one or two safteys back to help. If you watched tape over the coarse of this year alone we’ve run 4-3, 3-4, 4-4; we’ve run cover 1 cover 2 (both in zones and man) we’ve blitzed 1, 2, 3 backers… the list goes on
What this thread has done so far is assume that saying I’m better than you physically doesn’t work any more…. I think that is only somewhat true… we are still better than most. To me fundamentals are the problem more than the scheme. We consistently take bad angles, lose contain, run over or under, but never through blocks, and don’t play stay at home and my job football. Our kids are somewhat arrogant and try to be heroes. “I can make this play, never mind my assignment”, and that’s why they are easy to fool with misdirection and option.
I don’t thinke Meyer’s comments were meant to be negative. I think it’s more likely he meant to say something like…“you know what’s comming, you just gotta man up and ask yourself if you are ready to deal with it.”
2.
I see where you are going with this, but...
We do not many different looks. We run a huge % of man. We rarely challenge the offense mentally. We do challenge them physically.
Have we ever lined up in a 4-4 look? Sure, but it’s pretty rare. You know as well as I do that we are very easy to figure out, and often easy to beat.
I totally agree that fundamentals are a problem and I place this primarily on the coaching staff. Amato is a failure as our linebackers coach. His guys are very undisciplined and he encourages them “make plays” as opposed to executing. The linebacker play has declined since Steele left. Also, Amato is yet to recruit a south Florida kid for us.
Our next coaches need to do a better job of teaching the schemes to the kids, and need to do a better job being multiple. As for fundamentals, athletic ability and fundamentals result in big plays.
by Bud Elliott on Nov 25, 2008 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
Check this blitz out. Designed by Bo Pelini
Creative. Well timed, well paced.
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n141/ryanroussel/landry3.gif
I was there, behind JPW
I want to see us fake the blitz (like intentionally mistime the snap), back off 2-3 steps at snap, then charge in.
Ya
I’d like us to do that. I’d also like us to run delayed blitzes. We’re so insistent on getting there as fast as possible, but bringing a delayed blitz like Laron did in that play is sometimes more effective.
There are so many ways to blitz in addition to how many people come, and from where.
The defensive line sold that blitz perfectly...
Watch the left defensive end as he drops in coverage…it leave the right tackle picking his nose not knowing what to do.
The left defensive tackle drives his man to the outside which starts to open up the gap.
The right defensive tackle again occupies his man and forces him to the outside.
The right defensive end again baits the left offensive tackle into doing nothing.
So you have the tackles standing flat footed on the line of scrimmage with nothing to do because all of the action is to the inside. The DTs drive the guards out leaving the center alone to pick up the first blitzer.
The center makes the correct initial read and turns back to his right to try and get a hand on the blitzing backer. This was perfectly timed by the line backer and watch the speed with which he blows past the center. He had no hope.
But the key to the play is the timing of the second line backer who comes on a cross. The line backers essentially head in opposite directions…pulling apart the blocking scheme. Then Landry times it perfectly and fills the void with a clear rush up the middle.
LSU only rushed five…but they ended up playing 2 on 3 with the tailback and the center, which is rarely an effective combination to block three, especially with the speed and the angles that were taken on the blitz. Nice post CaStauch…would love to see us do this.
Plus watch the DE drop into coverage…nicely donw.
I wonder how much competition there is between Amato and Coley for sofla recruits though. Maybe they’re bridging their resources together and giving Coley the benefit since he’s more likely to be here in the long term.
Ready for it. What's the topic? Will be out of school most of the day.
Also, you seen Joyner’s vids on Youtube?
agreed we need a change
I agree 100% that we need a change…you’ve sold me on this throughout the year.
My point is, that I like the balance of our scheme. I have to be honest I DON"T want to see delayed blitzed very often…it’s a good way to get burned.
I think we need a coaching change because fundamentals are simply not being transmutted….period.
But I don’t want to live and die by zone blitzing. I like that we match up and say beat us, I just think our backfield needs to be more solid fundamentally if we are going to do this.
Great post
We don’t need to live and die by zone blitzing. I’m not really happy with our defensive workings, but they have performed well overall this year. That, however, is expected this year with our crop of players. If Mickey sticks next year, he will be forced to lie in his own bed so to speak.
I’m actually warming to the idea of bringing in a different LB coach or a DB coach for next year as an understudy and having him take over in 2010.
Not totally sure yet. Lots of young guys.
Preferably someone from a high scoring conference.
by Bud Elliott on Nov 25, 2008 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
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