Did the Florida State Seminoles improve in 2008?

by FSUncensored on Dec 2, 2008 12:41 AM EST in Football Comment 237 comments

A quick look around the media scene reveals many questioning the 2008 Seminoles. After another 30+ point loss to the Florida gators, they wonder if this team made any progress at all. I was curious as well so I took a look. This is very long, so you might want to print it out.

First, I decided to take a look at the Noles performance before the UF game. This is a good starting point, as it includes our body of work against an 11 game schedule, complete with the entire ACC schedule.

So, how should we evaluate performance? Wins are nice.

In 2007, the Noled entered the Florida game with a 7-4 record. They were 4-4 in the ACC. 2 of the wins were against horrible teams (UAB and Duke). The Noles were 2-3 against top 40 teams. (they would lose their final two as well, to finish 2-5 against top 40 teams)
in 2008, the Noles entered the Florida game with an 8-3 record. The Noles went 5-3 in the ACC. 2 of the 8 wins came against I-AA teams. the Noles were 4-3 against top 40 teams.

There is improvement in the record, but not a ton at first glance. One telling sign is the strength of the schedule. The Noles faced the 30th most difficult schedule in 2007. This year they faced the 2nd toughest in America.

Still, wins are a terrible way of truly evaluating a team. It is entirely possible for a team to play well against good competition and yet still lose the game.

Instead, let's turn to a better evaluation of performance: FEI. This is the most advanced method of performance evaluation available to the general public. If you are new here, follow the links in the pasted text for a better explanation.

The Fremeau Efficiency Index principles and methodology can be found here. FEI rewards playing well against good teams, win or lose, and punishes losing to poor teams more harshly than it rewards defeating poor teams. games against I-AA or DII competition are not included or graded. It is drive-based, not play-by-play based, and it is specifically engineered to measure the college game.

FEI is the opponent-adjusted value of Game Efficiency, a measurement of the success rate of a team scoring and preventing opponent scoring throughout the non-garbage-time possessions of a game. Like DVOA, it represents a team's efficiency value over average. Strength of Schedule is calculated from a privileged perspective (explained here) and represents the likelihood that an Elite team (top 5) would post an undefeated record against the given team's opponents to date.

So, in keeping with the "before the UF game" theme, let's see where we ranked.

In 2007, the Noles entered the UF game ranked 24th, with an FEI of 0.139
In 2008, the Noles entered the UF game ranked 9th, with an FEI of .221

Since this metric is opponent adjusted and goes deeper than any other available, it's an excellent measure of a team's ability. the Noles improved by almost 60% (58.99%)!

Overall, the Noles are a much better team in 2008 than 2007. Where did this improvement come from? Again, we can turn to FEI.

Adjusted Offensive Efficiency and Adjusted Defensive Efficiency are the opponent-adjusted values of Offensive Efficiency and Defensive Efficiency, explained here. Like FEI, the multiple-order adjustments are weighted according to both the strength of the opponent and the relative significance of the result; efficiency against a team's best competition faced is given more relevance weight. AOE and ADE represent a team's value over/under average. Positive AOE and negative ADE are the most valuable.

Offense

In 2007, FSU entered the UF game with the 76th best Adjusted Offensive Efficiency (AOE)
In 2008, FSU entered the UF game with the 21st best Adjusted Offensive Efficiency (AOE)

That's a pretty incredible jump. To go from 76th to 21st is very good. It's even more impressive considering the offensive personnel. These numbers indicate that the holdover players from the Nepotism era were pretty poor. Consider that Florida State started the youngest offensive line in the country.

NOTE: remember that FEI automatically adjusts for rules changes because it measures performance on drives, as opposed to only games. It also doesn't count non-competitive drives (drives where the game is locked up, for instance a drive when a team leads by 40 in the 4th quarter). This explains why FSU got little credit for crushing UAB and DUKE in the 2007 ratings. FSU received zero credit for their wins against the I-AA competition in 2008.

We can dig deeper still, but we need to consider a few things as well. First, the following numbers are not opponent adjusted. This is raw data. Second, the 2007 data includes a game against Duke (goes hand in hand with the lack of opponent adjustment). Third, the clock rules changed this year, giving offenses about 12 less plays per game (about 17% less opportunities).

In 2007, the Noles averaged 5.2 yards per play in ACC play (including Duke). Excluding Duke (because Duke was a major outlier last year, playing far below conference standards), the Noles averaged 5.02 yards per play.
In 2008, the Noles averaged 5.12 yards per play in ACC competition. There are no horrible teams to exclude from this data.
In 2007, the Noles averaged at least 4.85 yards per play 57% of the time, in ACC competition. In 2008, the Noles averaged at least 4.85 yards per play 88% of the time (7 of 8 games).

Hmm, that doesn't seem like much of an improvement, but it is some improvement. The advanced data says we got better. What could be at work here? First, tougher competition, much tougher. Second, the Noles often threw underneath on 3rd and long in 2007, picking up yards, but failing to convert. Those 7 yard completions look good in the scorer's book but don't offer much to help the team. In 2008, the Noles picked up 1st downs much better, because they took risks, but they also failed on occasion and those failures hurt the total.

What about offensive points per play? Remember that First, these are not opponent adjusted. This is raw data. Second, the 2007 data includes a game against Duke (goes hand in hand with the lack of opponent adjustment).

In 2007, the Noles scored .29 offensive points per play in ACC competition. remove Duke and that number doesn't fall much.
In 2008, The Noles scored .39 offensive points per play in ACC competition.

The Noles offense scored 39% more offensive points per play in 2008 than they did in 2007!! This is even more remarkable considering the step-up in competition the Noles faced in 2008. This is a big reason why the Noles offense was much better in 2008. They were much more efficient. The Noles actually attempted to get 1st downs in 2008, and they did not settle for field goals.

Additional Note: The Nole offense scored 33% more points per ACC game in 2008 than they did in 2007 (26 ppACCg in 2008 and 20 in 2007)

DEFENSE

In 2007, the Noles entered the UF game ranked 18th in Adjusted Defensive Effieicncy (ADE), posting a 0.218 score.
In 2008, the Noles entered the UF game ranked 19th in Adjusted Defensive Efficiency (ADE), posting a 0.021 score

Hmm, not much improvement, but still a good score. What might account for this? Why then, are we still disappointed in the defense? This defense needed to be elite (top 5). It showed no improvement, sliding a spot from 2007 to 2008. Unlike the offense, who went with a clear youth movement, the defense was very talented and loaded with returning starters. The defense returned 7 of 11 starters from the 2007 team, and did not feature a sophomore of freshman! Additionally, the 2007 unit was constantly injured-- a fate the 2008 unit did not suffer. After the 2008 season, the Noles defense will suffer massive causalities. A minimum of 8 starters (out of a possible 11) will leave. All told, it is entirely possible that 13 of the top 22 defensive players (22 encompass the 1st and 2nd string) will not be with the Noles in 2009. This was an experienced, talented unit that stayed remarkably healthy and did not produce dominant results under the direction of Mickey Andrews, Chuck Amato, and Jodey Allen. The defensive staff has no excuse. They did not inherit a huge mess as Jimbo Fisher did.

in 2007, the Noles allowed 4.99 yards per play in ACC competition. Removing Duke, the Noles allowed 5.05 yards per play.
In 2008, the Noles allowed 4.86 yards per play in ACC competition.

These results bode well for those arguing to keep Mickey Andrews. In his favor they did show improvement against much tougher competition. Still, this is not enough improvement for a unit with this sort of talent and athletic ability.

What about offensive points allowed per play? Remember that First, these are not opponent adjusted. This is raw data. Second, the 2007 data includes a game against Duke (goes hand in hand with the lack of opponent adjustment).

In 2007, the Noles allowed 0.29 offensive points per play in ACC competition (0.32 if you edit out Duke).
In 2008, the Noles allowed 0.33 offensive points per play in ACC competition.

While I do feel that Mickey's defenses have consistently underachieved over the past few years relative to their talent level, and have stated many times that I want him to lose his job, I should note that the 2007 defense's numbers are slightly suppressed because opponents missed 8 field goals in 2007. Again, these numbers show that the 2008 defense did not improve or reach an elite level, despite being deeper, more talented, more experienced, and much healthier than the 2007 edition.

Conclusion

According to the best available measures, the offense and the defense were about equal (21st and 19th). Both units cost the Noles a game this year. The offense was horrible in the Wake game. The defense was horrible in the Georgia Tech game (31 points, 400 yards and over 8 yards per play before GT's QB went down due to injury). Both units played poorly against Boston College and Florida.

As I explained above, there is no way that the defense should have been equal to the offense this year. The offense wildly exceeded the expectation of even the most optimistic reasonable observer. On the other hand, the defense massively underwhelmed the expected performance of most knowledgeable observers.

In short, the offense improved this year despite many obstacles. they appear to be well coached and should return 9 of 11 starters in 2009. I expect this unit to again improve, as players gain a further understanding of the scheme, and develop physically and mentally.

Given all the factors, I believe the defense regressed. It this defense performs at this same level next year, stand up and celebrate. The losses in the offseason will be substantial and Andrews has not shown the ability to adapt to changes in the game, be it strategic (the new clock rules, placing more emphasis on the running game or schematic (the spread, and most disturbingly the reemergence of the zone read). He clearly has lost the ability to convey information and relate to young people, as his own players repeatedly expressed their confusion in his scheme in throwing the defensive coaching staff under the proverbial bus. Andrews and company have done a horrible job developing the younger players who will be counted on to produce next year. If the administration lets Andrews stay, he will have plenty of rope to hang himself. Undoubtedly we will hear the excuse of youth, followed quickly by his increasingly contentious answers blaming the players and refusing to accept any responsibility for his staff's inability to teach football to college kids at an advanced level.

The administration will be forced to make some tough decisions this off-season. I have little double that if given the go-ahead, Jimbo Fisher will immediately dismiss the defensive staff. Regardless of who we bring in (if anyone) for 2009, the defense will be far from their decent but not spectacular 2008 level. The players simply are not there. Whoever is in charge of the 2009 defense needs to take a serious look at a youth movement, similar to one Florida experienced in 2007.

Speaking of Florida, I plan to review some more numbers on Wednesday, once they are made available, but check this out.

In 2007, the Florida defense ranked 73rd and the Nole offense 76th. The Noles scored 12 points, while the Noles 18th ranked defense surrendered 49 points to the top offense in tha nation. The Noles lost 49-12
In 2008, the 21st ranked Nole offense scored 15 points against the 4th ranked Gator defense. Think about that. The Gator's defense went from 73rd to 4th! Mickey Andrews should be ashamed at the coaching job he did this year. The 5th ranked Gator offense scored 45 points on the 19th ranked Seminole defense.

The Gator's defense and the Noles offense both made huge leaps this year. The Gator offense (elite) and the Nole defense (good) maintained their 2007 levels.

We're going to be in a ton of shoot-outs next year. Bobby's record against UF now sits at 17-17-1, 2-6 since he forced the Jeff decision down the throats of reasonable objectors. Him and Mickey deserve to have 80 dropped on them in the Swamp to end their careers as a fitting finish to their lazy and selfish actions of this decade.

If you enjoyed this article or learned something from it, please share it with your friends in Seminole Nation.

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Comments

Odell

will he stay under Fisher? He is the only defensive coach I want to see here right now.

by FSUStateOfMind on Nov 30, 2008 8:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I think so. Odell's problem has been recruiting. He stopped for a bit. He's now recruiting well again.

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by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 8:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

McDaniel and McAllister are big.

McAllister will stick. He loves Odell. Odell hasn’t had any losses this year I don’t think. Gary Brown was a Gator all the way.

by FSUStateOfMind on Nov 30, 2008 8:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

How much can you blame Marvin Austin on him?

Everyone gets burned every now and then, no?

by pbysh on Nov 30, 2008 10:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Brown

You mean John Brown?

by tdchrisdavis on Nov 30, 2008 8:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Gary Brown from East Gadsden (sp). . .class of 08

he committed to the gators in feb.

by FSUStateOfMind on Nov 30, 2008 9:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hey TDC, welcome to Tomahawk Nation!

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by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

thanks

by tdchrisdavis on Dec 1, 2008 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

This is some Phil Steele stuff right here

And it’s awesome. Love the work being put out here…I just handle the Rivals idiocy anymore.

I don’t think there’s any doubt we were better than a year ago, although I would have liked to save seen more from the defense, but that’s not changing without a new staff.

by FSUGrad99 on Nov 30, 2008 9:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

woops

that’s I just can’t handle the Rivals idiocy anymore and for that matter, Scout either.

by FSUGrad99 on Nov 30, 2008 9:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I just read Rivals mainboard now "for teh lulz"

by FSUStateOfMind on Nov 30, 2008 9:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm a big PhilSteele fan.

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by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The Main Board is good for some lulz

The Something Awful sports boards have moar epic lulz

by FSUGrad99 on Nov 30, 2008 9:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

main board keepin it real fo sho little rock reppin

by FSUStateOfMind on Nov 30, 2008 9:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

defense

This was eye-opening. Thank you for your honesty and educated arguments. I love the guys who in the past made this a proud program but the Jeff Bowden era will be the dark ages on the history of this program that will continue to haunt it for years to come. It also shows that Bobby’s weakness for too much loyalty not just his son but to Mickey. I cannot imagine Jimbo keeping him or anyone besides Odell on that side of the ball.

by Okinole on Nov 30, 2008 9:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

It can be difficult to toe the line between familiarity and loyalty

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by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Dark Ages

I think the dark ages of the Jeff Bowden era are coming to a close as that era had mostly to do with the offense and Jimbo Fisher is turning it around. WHO had hope in the offense actually coming up with a key score at the end of the game for a win near the end of the Jeff Bowden era, or even last year to a great extent? REMEMBER MIAMI for goodness sakes. The dark ages of the defense could be setting in… No one really knows if Mickey has it in him to turn it around because anything is possible, but there is something to be said about knowing when one’s time is to step down. Just wanting to go out as a national champion is different than being able to, particularly if stubborness is involved… I think about it like when I went from principles of Accounting to Intermediate:

I had all my old study habbits that I wanted to continue, and felt entitled to received good marks because I had in the past with those same habits; however, I had to change myself in order to continue to succeed. I will have to adapt to working at KPMG when I’m out of grad school as well, because school work and real work will be different, no matter how much I liked the fact that I had a lot of success doing things the way I did before.

To me, this is analogous to what the defense needs to do. Granted, some things don’t change like the fundamentals, hard work, etc. etc., but by and large adapting is the key and the more signs that the program holds on to powerhouse relics, the greater chances (I think) we have of slipping.

by FSUvaFan on Dec 2, 2008 10:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Good take, UVA

Now, I definitely would change the fundamentals of the defense, but the work ethic can stay.

If we make the change now, people will rip the guy when he doesn’t succeed with Mickey’s bare cupboard. If we wait, we’ll be a year behind but the guy will be in a position to succeed after Mickey fails next year.

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by FSUncensored on Dec 2, 2008 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't really want to wait a year

Are you sure we would have a bare cupboard if we wait a year? Seems like with all of the seniors on Defense, now would be a great time. I seriously don’t want to taint Bradham and Williams, McAllister, McCray, etc. etc. With the DL, I don’t know how much Odell can shield the players from the “tone at the top” (Mickey) —(hello accounting auditing terms!) but it absolutely makes a difference.

When something is wrong, usually the sooner it is changed the better. I would really like a fresh perspective though on all of the issues surrounding a decision of when to get rid of a coach.

by FSUvaFan on Dec 2, 2008 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I read that wrong, Your saying that we wouldn't have a bare cupport if we waited another year

sorry. That makes sense

by FSUvaFan on Dec 2, 2008 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Although

Seems like waiting until we have more experienced players on board when the new coach comes in would be an attempt to hedge the risks of having a total disaster of a season for the defense. Thats not a bad thought. Is that what you were thinking?

I personally would rather have a new administration on defense come in with the least amount of tainted players as possible, hoping that their talent can make up for their youth and they can learn quickly. Another thing to consider (that I am not entirely aware of) is how much will recruiting be damaged/benefited if we wait another year?

With all of that said, unless Bobby goes this year, I don’t think Mickey does. And I don’t think Bobby goes this year. We must pray that Jimbo is happy and has patience.

by FSUvaFan on Dec 2, 2008 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't nwant the new guy to be blamed for this defensive staff's failure to recruit and develop talent.

I think our defense is more loaded in 2010 than 2009.

If we can cut out Mickey, will Bobby follow?

I don’t know how much the recruiting will be damaged if we do wait till 2010.

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by FSUncensored on Dec 2, 2008 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I don't know if Bobby would stay if Mickey wasn't there anymore

I dont know how Bobby thinks, but if I couldn’t imagine a championship being very enjoyable to Bobby without Mickey being there. Especially seeing as how Bobby promised Mickey a spot at the Head Coach position… but all of that is conjecture of course.

Either way, keep up the good work.

by FSUvaFan on Dec 2, 2008 9:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Uncensored, fantastic job

I tell you that often, but you keep producing. Football is the only real FSU sport I care about , so I may not be around as much after Signing Day.

Amato needs to go, at the VERY least. Andrews and Bobby? Them too, but I’m not holding my breath.

"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...

by Curtain Jerker on Nov 30, 2008 9:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget about Jody Allen.

by FSUStateOfMind on Nov 30, 2008 9:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks, CJ

I am gradually becoming more of an FSU basketball fan.

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by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Let me clarify

I don’t wish the Noles any ill on teh hardwood. It looks like Hamilton has started to turn the corner, and I hope you guys do well.

I undergraded and am almost done with grad school at DePaul, so I’m loyal to the hoops program here, pathetic though it may be right now.

"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...

by Curtain Jerker on Nov 30, 2008 11:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

you will always have "Q"

by TBfisherman on Dec 1, 2008 8:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Awesome comparision from 2007 to 2008...

I am looking forward to the next month. I believe Jimbo voices his opinion about the defensive coaching staff. I wouldn’t be surprised if Mickey and crew are gone after the bowl game.

I think Mickey sees the writing on the wall. I can’t see him staying around to get embarrassed by the Gators next year.

by windycitynole on Nov 30, 2008 9:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

If we are going to make a change I'd really like it done now, that way we have 2 months to assure recruits that the defense is in good hands.

I am specifically worried about McAllister. I consider Stinson a loss at this point.

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by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It should be done now because of the youth on the offensive side.

Question about Allen: We all know he is bad on special teams, but DE has been pretty good this year. Maybe that’s just because of EB, but I feel Mincey has been solid. White is coming along slowly, but has gotten better as the year has gone one. Would you be in favor of keeping Allen if he were taken off of special teams?

Also, why do you not include Hagans in your list of faulty coaching this year? The DTs haven’t exactly been good this year.

by evenflow58 on Dec 1, 2008 10:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I am surprised by the DE play and

have trouble separating EB from the rest as well. I assume by Mincey you mean Moffett.

I would only be in favor of keeping Allen if he were a mega recruiter and Jimbo wanted him.

I didn’t include Hagans because we need to be careful with him. He’s black and we can’t afford to to lose black coaches (see mid-decade where we got killed for having a vanilla staff). He also is bringing in McAllister and Jacobbi McDaniel. I oppose anything that upsets their recruitment.

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by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Again he tells it like it is.

Perfect analysis.

by TRMNole on Dec 1, 2008 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Great take, as usual

I wish I could slap Warchant with this article, but I’m not sure how they’d feel about the link to here, or how you’d feel about it, for that matter. Just can’t believe people are seriously defending Andrews and throwing Jimbo under the bus. I mean, Fisher ain’t perfect, but I love him and I think he needs to stay. Andrews? not so much. His scheme and his recruiting choices are driving me insane.

by pbysh on Nov 30, 2008 10:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Agree 100%

"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...

by Curtain Jerker on Nov 30, 2008 10:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If we could figure out

how to stop that dag gum zone read option crap we win 2 more football games this year. I think players not being physical enough up front really effected 3 games.

I still think Mickey is better than anyone you can bring in…..
Anyway, I am out….ill post more thoughts on this later. Great post though, Bud….thanks for doing that research!

by UNFNOLE on Nov 30, 2008 10:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Zone Read did account for 2 losses at least,

though I’m sure UF beats us if we sell out to stop the ZR. McCray should add at least 10lbs this offseason and Mincey could definitely get better.

UNF, what if I phrased it like this: our defense should suck horribly in 2009. Mickey won’t stick around for 2010, that is pretty certain. Would you rather we bring in the new guy now and have him figure out what he has, teach, implement, and learn, with the hope that the defense is ready for 2010, or would you prefer we wait till 2010.

The obvious fear with bringing in a new guy is that most won’t realize how bad off we are, personnel wise for 2009 on the defensive end, and will immediately blast the new guy for failing to meet the standards that Mickey set in 2008 with a loaded squad.

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by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm

I think you make a good point. I suppose it is better now than the following year, but on the premise that Mickey has failed as a DC I dont want him out (I dont think he has).

I dont think stopping the zone-read helps us beat UF either…..but it would have greatly effected the game. Tebow still would have gotten it done though, and our offense was stopped pretty well.

by UNFNOLE on Dec 1, 2008 8:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

This is amazing stuff.

Just more unsolicited praise from me – I’m sorry, I read your stuff, I’m amazed it’s out there, and best of all my credit card doesn’t get billed $9.99 for a poorly-spelled three-paragraph game summary from an ex-player who thinks we’re “this close,” and so I feel compelled to tell you again and again how great this site is.

I also have an honest question for anyone who reads this and can enlighten me, and no, this is NOT meant to flame anyone – it is a sincere and honest question – perhaps others have the same question and haven’t thought to pose it. The people defending Bobby and Mickey on this other site, “let them coach forever, they’ve earned it,” these people – who are they? When I go to the games, who are they? How do I recognize them? Surely they’re not the big money boosters – those folks aren’t online at 10:30PM on a Sunday night clicking the five-star approval option 100 times on every “I heart Bobby” post, right? They’re not kids – what do they care about these old men who make laughing stocks out of them when they go back to school after another blow-out loss to the most popular team in the state? Do these people go to the games? I can tell you they’re NOT at the games when the clock shows zeros and we’re getting blown out. Because everyone who IS there and is anywhere near this fan is involved in a pretty damned frustrated conversation about the state of our program and its leadership. Are they the folks that leave at halftime? Are they the people who don’t go at all? The students in rows 65 thru 80? The season ticket holders who wore orange and blue to the game on saturday? Who are they? Where are they when the rain is still pouring, the team has had their collective ass handed to them, and I along with about 1,000 other supposed “fair weather fans” are still in the stadium supporting what’s left of my beloved Noles? Somone please sort this out for me.

by TRMNole on Nov 30, 2008 10:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Are they Gators?

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by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 10:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Many, I'm sure.

Perhaps very many. Would a Gator troll post as many as 5,000 comments to sell himself as a ‘Nole fan just to get under some Nole fans’ skin? Of course. And really, it’s my only guess at this point. I know you were at the Iron Bowl yesterday, but when they did the weekly “Ask Bobby Bowden” segment over the big screen in the third quarter (your stomach just sank reading that, didn’t it?), this time instead of just the usual stunned silence and, I don’t know, polite(?) looks of confusion on people’s faces, the audio of Bowden’s answers was almost completely drowned out by the laughter of the Gator fans. Genuine laugher, mind you. As in, it was really funny stuff, and I don’t blame them for laughing one bit. It was sad and embarrassing. And I was wet and angry and frustrated and tired, and so all I could do was laugh too.

I think you answered my question. Thank you.

by TRMNole on Nov 30, 2008 11:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

They must be Gators. Who else would defend someone paid 2 Million dollars to lead by stating "lay off, he doesn't do anything!"

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by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow, when you put it that way, it does seem pretty obvious.

Analyzing a sizeable chunk of my online life right now.

by TRMNole on Nov 30, 2008 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh believe me....

there will always be a small group that will always defend someone because he/ she is a nice person even though that person brings nothing of value or importance to the team, department, company, etc…

Some people are just afraid of change or having to adapt to a new situation. I bet these are some of the people that are complaining that Jimbo’s offensive gameplan was awful. This wouldn’t surprise me.

Ughh…the Bears stink.

by windycitynole on Nov 30, 2008 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah they do...

What a brutal football weekend.

"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...

by Curtain Jerker on Nov 30, 2008 11:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

On the Bears...

A lot of VERY smart NFL guys are completely resigned to the idea that investing big dollars in defensive players is flat stupid. They think the long term contracts should go to offensive players (excluding runningbacks), because the continuity really pays off over the course of several seasons. The 2 polar opposites matched up when the Colts beat the Bears in the super bowl. The franchises have taken different paths since. The numbers show that NFL defenses do not stay consistently elite (top 4 or 5) over the course of several seasons. Offenses, however, often do.

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by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'll buy that to a point

I think it depends on who you pay, regardless of what side of the ball they play on. Lance Briggs, for example, is a steal, especially at the 5 yr/30 million or so they locked him up at. Vasher and Tillman, on the other hand, are not.

The biggest problem with the Bears (besides the glaring lack of a wideout) is the stubborness of the coaching staff. Tampa 2 doesn’t work unless you can consistently get a pass rush, but the D-line has been hit-or-miss this season.

"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...

by Curtain Jerker on Nov 30, 2008 11:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't get me started about the damn Bears

by FSUStateOfMind on Dec 1, 2008 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Your point is well taken too, and I totally agree.

One thing I take heart in – though I did last year too, and what did it get me? – is that there is one thing that group you mentioned earlier hates more than anything, the one and only thing they’ll put before Bowden – and that’s losing to Florida. I have zero insider information, but I know some of these people – you know some too, we all do – and they love Bowden, they give their money, they support the program, etc., but last year’s loss to Florida put a lot of them over the edge – again, zero insider information – but yesterday wasn’t supposed to happen. Not again. Not like that. Not in Doak. Now who knows, maybe all is forgotten again. Hell, I half expect it to be. Maybe we just get used to this now like we’ve gotten used to all of the other mediocrity that we’ve come to expect, but indeed these are the “we can go 1-11 as long as we beat Florida” people. There is crossover there. Again, purely anecdotal, but it’s the only hope I have – what the hell else could anyone possibly have to hang on to? Bobby’s gonna call TK when he gets the chance to talk about his contract?!

I got to listen to my Bucs on the drive home today – the field sounded like ours yesterday. (By the way, what a great thing to have Deckerhoff call your pro team’s games!)

by TRMNole on Nov 30, 2008 11:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

But ...

the problem is, no pun intended, resignation. My fear is that FSU fans well simply become resigned to the fact that Bowden is calling the shots and will leave when he wants to. You might say: “No, eventually people will have had enough.” To which I would say: “What more has to happen?” We haven’t done squat in 7 years. We can’t beat Florida and aren’t even close. We can’t even get in the ACC title game any more, much less win the conference, much less dominate the conference like we used to.

That’s why posters like you and this site are so important — the drumbeat must continue.

by Fsued on Nov 30, 2008 11:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Is there a difference between having realistic expectations regarding a timetable to the elite and

simply accepting an 8 win season?

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Major CFB at its heart

is a business. Cold, but it’s just another way to develop revenue. And while that’s the case, the rabble of the proletariat contingent of the fan base will have no impact. The bourgeoisie, the big money boosters, will have to turn before anything of any real consequence happens.

And they’re old. So they’re stubbornly insistent, that their fellow old guy still has it. That he will find a way to regain that charm and twinkle and river boat magic. So they flood him with money and appall and castrate and isolate anyone that asks him tough questions. They laugh at the one-liners, shrug off the “Florida that there is an elite team, we’re not on their level” comments and excuses, and sign big checks.

Can’t beat the dollar, folks.

by CaStauch on Dec 1, 2008 1:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

What the hell was that?

I have no clue who authorized that to go up because it was pretty embarrassing.

by Weasie on Dec 1, 2008 10:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for continuing to read.

I liked Warchant, but it was sometimes difficult to discuss the game at a higher level. That’s due to the nature of the message board format.

After they banned me, I realized that I didn’t miss it. The only thing I did miss was the quick Monday press conference recap, because I occasionally missed the chance to listen to the press conference. Other than that, much of the information available in the premium section is actually available for free at Seminoles.com

I hope everyone will stick around during the off season.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 10:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I have wondered that myself.

I am 1000 miles away so I can’t answer that question. My belief is that the Bowden supporters are the minority now. In my opinion, the majority of the supporters are older alumni that were around when Bowden began to build the program.

by windycitynole on Nov 30, 2008 11:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hmm, this seems like a good poll question.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Let me say

I defend Mickey Andrews, not because I think he is a nice guy, but because he has consistently produced one of the top defenses in the nation for the last 20 years. He still is….. We were in the top 5 all year long. You can say we played ACC competition, but what about the SEC defenses where there isn’t a single offense that is productive outside of UGA and UF? Our defense still keeps us in games. There isn’t a perfect scheme out there. I don’t care who you bring in. Every scheme is MEANT to have it’s weaknesses. Well then you talk about recruiting. Well, we have still produced a whole host of NFL talent. So what is the problem then? I really believe it’s certain players not executing on certain days. Ga Tech is all about assignments. If the coaches teach the assignments and the players don’t execute them, then whos fault is it? The players? However, people like you, consistently go back and blame Mickey, because it is easier. Do I think Bobby should retire? Yes. Only because I am excited to see what Jimbo can do (hopefully he is still on that headset, I dont want him passing that off to somebody). You can’t just call anyone who wants Mickey to stay ignorant.

by UNFNOLE on Dec 1, 2008 8:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I appreciate your viewpoint.

However, I didn’t make any of the points you said I made. Nor did I call anyone ignorant. For the record, I respect our conference, and I don’t care what UF does to anybody.

Perhaps you meant to respond to someone else’s post. I know this format can be a bit confusing.

by TRMNole on Dec 1, 2008 10:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No....

It is the consistent viewpoints offered by many of the readers here. I didn’t feel like posting my reply to you, and then having to defend it in two different posts. You pretty much said that any reasonable person is not arguing for this (They must be Gators or kids who don’t watch the games). I am telling you differently. I have watched all but the Wake game this year and I still feel that Mickey is an elite DC.

by UNFNOLE on Dec 1, 2008 11:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree, I think Mickey is not always to blame.

You can coach and teach someone all day long but if you don’t go out and execute….Is that the coaches fault or the players? As for the zone read, we should have stopped it and I can’t beleive that Mickey is too stubborn to change his scheme to stop an offense. It is simply poor execution by players. Now better coaching would improve execution but you can’t say Mickey’s Defenses have been great! Look at or Opponents 3rd Down conversion rate.

by UnstopaNole99! on Dec 1, 2008 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You can coach and teach someone all day long but if you don’t go out and execute….Is that the coaches fault or the players?

Ultimately, it is the coaches fault for being poor teachers and preaching intensity over execution.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

On an individual basis this is true. However, when the whole unit complains about being confused it’s a coach problem.

by evenflow58 on Dec 1, 2008 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm a fan and

I still support our team. Our team being the kids playing AND the coaches. I’m 31, and grew up on Bowden football just 50 miles south east of Doak.

As FSUncensored is fond of saying you don’t let an architect tear down a great buliding simply because he built it (paraphrasing here). I understand and agree with that statement. I hoever see things differently. I say a man can stay in the house he built as long as he likes. In my eyes, the house hasn’t been torn down. Sure there may be some weeds in the yards and maybe a coat of new paint is in order but the house is still better than 3/4 of the houses out there.

To bring a little gray to these seemingly black and white debates, I’m about 60-40 for Bobby and Mickey staying. It would have slipped had we not had a better season than the previous ones … BUT we did! We all knew this was a rebuilding year and if when we win our bowl game we will be ahead of schedule in my eyes.

by RollinNole on Dec 1, 2008 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

To assume that Bowden is the singular reason that FSU became successful is a bit naive. It is located at a crossroad of some of the best talent corridors in the country and has an implicit advantage in recruiting, being composed of mainly girls as well as its proximity to FAMU.

by CaStauch on Dec 1, 2008 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Florida was also the fastest growing state for many years.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Fair Enough

I can admit that I don’t have any good reasons for him to stay other than out of respect for what he has accomplished here. Also, selfishly I want FSU to have the crown of winningest coach in D1 and am hopeful that it is not at the expense of the program.

If we stay with Ponder, I can give him 2 more years. If we move on to EJ, I would be ready for him to step down as we will officialy be in the Fisher era at that point.

by RollinNole on Dec 1, 2008 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Bowden Then and Now

Bowden was not the singular reason that FSU became great, but he WAS the biggest reason. He changed FSU from the mentality of “maybe we won’t lose” to " we will travel to anyone’s house and take it down". That attitude along with his wide open offenses and willingness to gamble made top young talent grow up dreaming of playing for FSU. In addition, he won over most mothers as well. That being said, for these reasons, I do think it is time for him to retire.
Due to the ineptness and failure of the offense during Jeff’s tenure, Bobby has lost his confidence and ability to call plays as he once was able. I feel that even though Jimbo does not have the personality that Bowden once had, his game planning and play calling is excellent. This team is steadily growing offensively. Had it not been raining saturday, I believe It would have been a close game. Bobby needs to leave before Jimbo decides ha has had enough. Fisher is the future and would be very hard to replace.

by heartnnole on Dec 1, 2008 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Bobby has built up a lot of good will in what he has done with the program. People like my parents remember the days when the “stadium” was just a bunch of metal bleachers and you could sit on the grass and watch them game. They look at the fact that we didn’t win any games and so 7 or 8 wins a season doesn’t seem so bad.

That’s not to say that they don’t care or think Bobby is the man for the job, but it’s hard to push somebody out after they’ve acheived so much. At this point it’s almost like telling your grandfather he can’t drive. Taking away the keys isn’t easy.

by evenflow58 on Dec 1, 2008 12:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ah, the erector set and the light-up spear that gauged crowd noise

by hopnole23 on Dec 1, 2008 4:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

In a strange way, I missed the erector set on Saturday.

by TRMNole on Dec 1, 2008 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm glad ...

…. I’m not the only FSU fan banned from Warchant!

by Fsued on Nov 30, 2008 11:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

When were you booted?

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, couple years ago

Gene Williams wrote a terrible column ripping the media for all sorts of things which he was, in fact, guilty of himself in the very column he wrote. I pointed all of this out in a few rational posts. He then said he had traced back my IP address and found that I was a Gator fan and banned me. I put all of this on my personal blog and then called another of the staff members and told them how bogus it was — asked them if they had watched Gary Huff and Jimmy Black and Wally Woodham play in person and stuff like that.

They said they’d reinstate me if I’d take down my blog post. I did, the reinstated me, then he banned me again saying he wasn’t in the loop and that I should have taken the original matter up with him rather than post on my blog.

I pointed out that all of that was fruit from the poison tree and that the REAL issue was that he had falsely accused me of being a Gator fan/imposter. He didn’t budge.

So now I do everything I can to let people know what a ripoff Warchant is, how unethical GW is and that joining their premium service is a big fat waste of money.

Aren’t you glad you asked?

by Fsued on Nov 30, 2008 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That's a great story.

It would take the average Seminole fan $29.97 over three months to reach the same conclusion, and your story is a classic and totally free.

Ed, you’re another great contributor to this site. Your takes are excellent.

by TRMNole on Nov 30, 2008 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you very much

Ditto to you TRM. I really don’t have much to offer on X’s and O’s but I’ve been around the stadium track a few times so I have a wee bit of history to offer (although I’m sure there are posters here that go back to the Bill Peterson era which is before MY time). Also, I enjoy the intangibles part of the game.

Make no mistake, however — the heavy lifting on this site comes from Tomahawk Nation, as evidenced by the excellent thread in which we are all commenting.

by Fsued on Nov 30, 2008 11:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I too am guilty for calling out the media,

most notably for the hyper-criticism of penalties (which are more symptomatic of aggressive play than anything) and my defense of Marcus Sims.

The one thing that annoyed me was that someone used their powers to have me banned from the National board, which I enjoyed reading.

That does suck that you can be penalized for non-TC free speech.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well....

… everybody’s guilty of media bashing — even me and “I is one!”

by Fsued on Nov 30, 2008 11:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

you could probably get unbanned from the mainboard

if you wanted to. Is the ban carried out by BushidoNole? If it is, just e-mail.

by FSUStateOfMind on Dec 1, 2008 6:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No idea. You should lobby to bring back surenole. People went nuts for the gambling picks.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 6:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Can't post on rivals (friend's account---I'm a poor college kid).

people still go apeshit over gambling. Wish Bushido was over here as well. He knows his stuff. I’m sure someone can lobby for you though. People were asking about “SureNole” when Weatherford’s idiot comments went public.

by FSUStateOfMind on Dec 1, 2008 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

hmmmm....

are you a gator fan??? FSUncensored…check his IP. :)

5 years in a row? Getting beat 45-15 in our house? Second straight time they have beaten us at home en route to the BCS championship? When is this crap going to end? Force Bobby to resign and let Jimbo clean house on the defensive staff. Anything less is doing permanent damage.

by mp212121 on Nov 30, 2008 11:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You outed me!

I have a big poster of Jimmy Dubose in my room and Chris Collinsworth is my true hero!

by Fsued on Nov 30, 2008 11:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

"He then said he had traced back my IP address and found that I was a Gator fan and banned me."

(insert rolling laughing face 10x) That doen’t surprise me one bit that Gene Williams would do that. Some of those mods are scumbags.

by FSUStateOfMind on Dec 1, 2008 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

meant to add "as if it were possible"

Can we get an edit button?

by FSUStateOfMind on Dec 1, 2008 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I predicted a 6-6 season, and the reason I was wrong is because I underestimated Trickett and the offensive line.

It’s easy to be overly impressed with the offensive turnaround because we’ve been so used to incompetance, so I try to be level-headed about it. That said, we definitely improved in every aspect, garnet and gold glasses or not. The mishaps can be chalked up to youth and inexperience. The thing I loved the most about the offense was the toughest and ability to come from behind.

Even though Gano has been unbelievable, I still look at the special teams as iffy. Really, I guess that would be just because of the kickoff unit, which was high-school-like.

The defense – it’s very special watching this defense dominate a game (i.e. Maryland). There’s a swagger that comes with a Mickey Andrews defense and at times we make the other offense look completely overwhelmed. You get chills watching performances like that. But…

this isn’t 1996. This defense plays dumber than probably every defense in the country (other than Miami). Any team that has a competant offensive coordinator can destroy our defense, even with just a splash of talent (i.e. Wake). Again, this isn’t 1996, where it’s just a bunch of old school fogies who are calling plays like their daddy taught them to do. It’s not a coincidence once the information age blossomed in the 2000’s, Mickey’s moldy tactics got exposed by innovative and/or sharp opposing coaches. Sure, the talent has helped mask it, but last year’s UF game was the beginning of the end of Mickey Andrews. We could ALWAYS blame the offense, and rightfully so, but now there is no fallback for Andrew’s defense.

I posted last week that I was willing to hold out judgement on the Mickey Andrews defense until after the UF game. He had a chance to prove me and us wrong. He had a chance to redeem himself. He had a chance to look at that UF game tape from last year over and over and over again. But once again we got destroyed.

Anyways… I’m going off on a tangent and I’m tired (been in holliday traffic all day)… but long story short…

We improved this year because of the offense, but if we want to be where we want to be, the FSU admin needs to force Bobby to retire, effective immediately, then give Jimbo the keys. If Mickey hasn’t already stepped down with Bobby, then the admin will need to have a “chat” with him as well. Jimbo will then be given a budget and will be allowed to assemble the defensive staff anyway he pleases.

by mp212121 on Nov 30, 2008 11:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Funny you mention the information age.

I believe that it is more than a generality that older people are less receptive to change. I can’t see Mickey sitting down and working the computers to isolate what an opposing team has done against Defense _, in 3rd and _, when trailing by X-XX points.

I also believe that Mickey finally went over the edge in being completely reliant on freakish athletes, where before I believe he was very reliant, but still did a decent job teaching these guys.

Like it or not, Jeff Bowden hurt the defensive side of the ball as well. How much could anyone criticize the defense when the offense was literally being operated at a Division II level? Is it really that inconceivable that the defensive coaches would slack off? Accountability works both ways.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

After Cromartie

it’s like he stopped doing anything.

by FSUStateOfMind on Dec 1, 2008 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Speaking of Bobby retiring ...

… did anybody see this exchange quote from his Sunday interview?

Q: Since you signed that new year-to-year contract last year, and Jimbo Fisher has his deal as the Coach in Waiting, how does this work? Do you have to meet with T.K. Wetherell now and talk about next year?

A: I would probably call him and tell him this is what I plan to do.

I guess I was kind of hoping the administration would call HIM and tell him what THEY plan to do!

by Fsued on Nov 30, 2008 11:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Wow. Must be nice to make a 2-million dollar phone call.

Again, as you have astutely pointed out, a football program is like a corporation, or any organization for that matter. This type of tom-foolery at the top does trickle down to the players. They crave leadership, which they haven’t received for many years.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

To put a finer point on it

A football program isn’t just LIKE a corporation or business it IS one.

We’re starting to remind me of the company the guy runs in “Secret of my Success” — the movie with Michael J. Fox — anybody remember?

They’ve got all these VPs (read: executive head coach, etc.) but none of them actually do anything.

“Emeritus” leadership is a proven way to lose — in any kind of business. Again, Trickett must really chafe under this kind of disjointed leadership given his military background. It runs completely contrary to everything he’s ever been around. Must drive him nuts. Can you imagine the Marines naming a “general in waiting?” Or calling somebody a General even though they really aren’t?

This festival of title-giving and leadership diffusion is really just an extension of the monarchy model of leadership that gave us Jeff Bowden. Honestly, I don’t know how we won 8 games this year the more I think about it.

by Fsued on Nov 30, 2008 11:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The secret of my success... trailer

http://www.imdb.com/rg/VIDEO_PLAY/LINK//video/screenplay/vi4277338393/

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

"That's right ...

…. Brantley is Whitfield and Whitfield is Brantley."

;-)

by Fsued on Nov 30, 2008 11:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I've never seen the movie, but I might just check it out after finals.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well done FSUncensored. Amazing job you have done this season and I, along with the many fans that have found this oasis of greatness, appreciate the time and effort you take to keep this site alive.

I am not banned from WC, but mainly because I never post there and hardly visit anymore. I do agree the forum is filled with trolls and Gators that give nothing to the forum except nonsense and the occasional good laugh. I also agree that no Nole fan should have to pay to get “breaking news”…and for what? For 0sec access to the news? If anyhting, the news filters to blogs, news sites, and friends via email and txts within an hour if not minutes anyway.

I hope you keep this blog alive during the offseason, because basketball and baseball seasons still await. I plan to stick around through the year on this site.

Once again, thanks for everything FSUncensored.

by thirdcoastnole on Nov 30, 2008 11:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Thanks, 3rdcoast

I really believe that all of the FSU sites have their place. It’s very important not to fall into groupthink traps. I think sports is one of the easiest places for this to happen, as words like “toughness” and “focus” are thrown around far too often. You have to weigh through so much junk to find true answers to anything.

As for baseball, I’ll definitely need help with that. I love baseball, but I am not sure how much I will be able to watch of the Noles this year. Even a paragraph every other day from the occasional volunteer would help.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Warchant

I’m a “rookie” on this board so to speak, but my opinion is…

Just take it for what it is and leave it be. It’s my believe that the majority of the warchant posters should just stay over there and not litter this board with nonsense. The smart ones will find their way.

I think it’s just one of those things… let sleeping dogs lie. If links to this site get posted over there, it will attract an unwanted crowd.

by mp212121 on Nov 30, 2008 11:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I'm not sure I can handle moderating 10K users

We have a solid group of about 100 commenter’s. Obviously, opinions of all types are welcome, but when you register you agree not to use profanity, not to flame with off topic arguments, etc.

I also want to make it clear that I am not telling people to go solicit Warchant members. If you have FSU friends, sure, alert them to the site. I just don’t have the time to deal with a fight against rivals right now.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

This is true.

But no worries, such a post wouldn’t last.

by TRMNole on Nov 30, 2008 11:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

As a follow-up, please understand that some of us (like me) are excited just to post an opinion without being threatened.

And some of those opinions reference this other site we’ve been mentioning. I apologized in advance the first time I mentioned this other site (and I’ve never mentioned it by name), and I don’t plan to talk much about this other site in the future. I also have no desire to bring anyone from there over here.

by TRMNole on Nov 30, 2008 11:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It's fine to mention Warchant.

Gene has asked that we not post premium articles and I have agreed that we will not do that. I really think we need all the varying viewpoints that we can gather. I really don’t think the economy is helping subscription sites either.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Nov 30, 2008 11:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

+1.

I have brought a few fellow FSU alum over here, but they agree with the way WC is run.

by thirdcoastnole on Nov 30, 2008 11:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Slightly OT:

Does Dabo Swinney being named Clemson’s coach help or hurt them? I think it is the latest example of “Bill Stewart Disease” where an interim coach with no pressure or expectations does well in a game or games and then gets the big chair.

"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...

by Curtain Jerker on Nov 30, 2008 11:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

2 of my best friends are Clemson grads.

Tommy Bowden did one good thing for Clemson: recruit. He stocked their program with talent. Dabow is an excellent recruiter, and he’s young. He relates well to the young guys playing for him. My guess is that he does fine, but Clemson has to have realistic expectations. Not counting bowl games or championship games, Clemson should attempt to be 35-13 in a 4 year stretch (48 games). Expectations might be the biggest problem at Clemson.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 12:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Clemson fans

still think it is 1981.

by FSUStateOfMind on Dec 1, 2008 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Dabo at Clemson makes me giggle

Clemson has downgraded the head coaching position. Tommy wasn’t anything great, but he at least above average – and Clemson just replaced him with an assistant (not even a coordinator) from the same failed staff who does Joe Kines imitations at halftime. That program has a limited window of opportunity to get something done before FSU and Miami get their crap together and this is what they come up with?

Wow.

by FSUGrad99 on Dec 1, 2008 12:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm kind of excited

Dabo is an unknown. On the surface, I agree completely with the Bill Stewart assessment. And the absolute worse thing that could have happened to us was for them to bring in a true Xs and Os guy to work with the talent they’ve assembled (see: Zook, Ron). But who knows, maybe he’s the next Bear Bryant.

by MattDNole on Dec 1, 2008 8:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No clue how you pass up a proven commodity in Bud Foster (it seemed like he was theirs if they wanted him) for unknown Dabo Swinney. It’ll be interesting to see how Swinney does when he has nothing (like a contract this year) to fight for.

by evenflow58 on Dec 1, 2008 12:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Having seen it up here, up close

I think it was a bad decision, but I was really surprised he led Clemson to a bowl, so maybe I’m wrong. He seems like an over-energetic Lou Holtz, always jumping and chest bumping and what not. I think the mistake was in not wiping this slate clean and bringing in some new blood, just for a new start. No doubt, the Tigers have been very good at recruiting, but he’ll have to prove he can match that AND coach them in the game right (which is where Tommy Bowden failed).

by hopnole23 on Dec 1, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The general thinking is that he's cheap, can be easily fired, and will at least keep them in the same position, recruiting wise.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The chest bumping, i'am your friend and coach ....

routine will get old quick with the players. They will tune him out in three to four years.

by windycitynole on Dec 1, 2008 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Just like in economics

I think it’s important to look at performance at the marginal level. It is very clear that the offense drastically improved while the defense stagnated.

Compared to what they’ve done in the past, and what they should have done with the players on the team this year, I see no way to say anything but the defensive coaches completely underachieved this year.

by MattDNole on Dec 1, 2008 8:39 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Production relative to resources-- bingo.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 11:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Can you post your

suspected depth chart on defense next year? I am not sure it is as bad as we are thinking it may be. If Watson stays (which I dont see him having much draft stock right now) Bradham and maybe moving Kendal Smith is a pretty descent linebacking core as they stand right now (hoping bradham takes a couple of steps forward it could be good). You think PRob is leaving? I dont think TCarter is very good as it is, so I don’t know how much the drop off is to Jenije. Anyway, it would be interesting as to why we think they are going to be so bad.

by UNFNOLE on Dec 1, 2008 9:09 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

My Depth Chart

FSUncensored will probably post a better one, but here’s how I see it.

DE- Markus White and Kevin McNeil will be the starters. Dawkins will be in the rotation. I’m not sold on Stevens having the size to play yet, but he might be called on here. If we could get Vernon, I can see him getting playing time. Maybe Budd Thacker could slide down here if he stays in school. Jenkins should redshirt.

DT- Stewart and McCray are my starters here. Mincey would be the top backup in my opinion. McDaniel will get a lot of playing time and McAllister will get some. If we take another DT recruit that isn’t Thornton, he will probably redshirt. I don’t think we can count on Dunbar being healthy.

MLB- Recardo Wright starts here unless Vince Williams shows a lot of improvement. Vince is good, but I think he’s still too young to pencil him in as a starter. Hopefully we can count on Aaron Gresham for some depth at the position.

OLB- If Dekoda leaves, Bradham and Smith are my starters. If Dekoda stays, I’d hope we’d see a lot of 3-4 with Bradham, Smith, Watson, and Wright on the field at the same time. Carr and Alexander would be in the rotation here. I’d like to see Nick Moody here as well. Who knows what will happen with Maurice Harris. Mizell will probably only contribute on special teams next year.

FS- Jamie Robinson is our only returning safety. Hopefully we can get a lot of production out of our recruits here. Harley would be good here, but I think our staff is convinced to play him at corner. If we could spare the depth and he can’t successfully convert to corner, Parks would probably play here.

R- Our staff is probably going to put Nick Moody here as the starter. Downs, Demps, and Bright all look to be candidates for playing time here. Downs can make an immediate impact, but don’t underestimate Demps either.

CB- I think we absolutely have to have Robinson back here. It gets scary if he’s not on the depth chart. Your starters would be Mangum and Jenije. I feel comfortable with either of them as a #2 guy, but neither as a #1. We need Allen to get healthy and contribute. If Parks stays here, he’ll play. Alexander will hopefully learn the necessary skills to contribute here as well. Our current staff will probably put Harley here, and maybe Rhodes plays corner for us as well. I think Brinson will get immediate playing time if we bring him back.

I think we could bare the loss of Watson, but it would be very ugly if we lost Robinson as well.

by MattDNole on Dec 1, 2008 9:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Agree with your post

Mincey needs to hit the books. I would hate to lose him due to academics.

by ChileanNole on Dec 1, 2008 9:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Added

Signing Jawanza Starling would free up a lot of options regarding Moody, Downs, and Harley at the safety position,

by MattDNole on Dec 1, 2008 10:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Someone with connections...

please tell somebody in charge to offer Jayron Hosley.

We look pretty bad right now at DE and Safety, and downright scary at CB if Robinson leaves.

Hosley adds depth to CB and lets us keep Harley at FS, which helps there as well. I don’t know what to do about defensive end.

by MattDNole on Dec 1, 2008 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Jarvis Bryd perhaps too?

by FSUStateOfMind on Dec 1, 2008 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Man o man, you guys love recruiting.

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by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I like recruiting a lot, but

I like good quality cornerbacks more. You know, the ones that can run, cover, and somehow catch a ball thrown right to them. You know, just the opposite of what we have right now except for P-Rob. I ESPECIALLY LIKE GOOD QUALITY CORNERBACKS THAT WANT TO COME HERE BUT OUR DUMBASS STAFF WON’T OFFER THEM. All caps for emphasis. Sorry about the yelling.

by FSUStateOfMind on Dec 1, 2008 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I wanted to know

Why do we go get SS and not CB. Then we try to convert them to LB/OLB. I think it BS. Its like turning a WR to a CB its not going to work and they will get burned. I I think we will be ok on Off but man we need to start now recruiting for 2010

by Desman on Dec 1, 2008 6:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

While I'm in the depth-charting mood

On offense….

QB- Ponder, Richardson, Manuel. Do I need to explain further?

RB- Thomas, Pressley, Jones, Pryor. I think Lonnie will have to show a lot to go beyond 3rd on the depth chart at best.

FB- Sims, Holloway. We’re fine here for the way we use fullbacks.

TE- Caz, Little, Reliford. It will be the Caz and friends show for one more year.

OT- Anybody Trickett wants. I’m guessing Greenlee, Sanders, and Datko will be the mix for starters.

OG- Rodney Hudson will start on one side. Furlong, Spurlock, et al will fight on the other side.

C- McMahon gets this one by default again. Hopefully he can add some strength in the weightroom this offseason.

*I cannot begin to project who Rick Trickett will start and where he will put them. I can say that I fully expect us to be fine with the starting 5 he chooses, and that we will have plenty of depth.

WR- Hopefully Preston stays. Paker and Easterling will be our do-everything receivers. Reed, Owens, Givens, Thompson, and hopefully Ricco Sanders will be our slot guys (At least 1 of the two recruits listed will redshirt). Fortson and Commack will be our primary bigs. Wade, Rodney Smith (fingers crossed) and Haulstead will add some depth. If Downs doesn’t play safety, we will be a good outside receiver as well.

I think we will be fine at QB, ok for what we want at FB and TE, and great at RB and OL. The success of the WR corp will depend on some of the young guys (especially the outside receivers) stepping up.

by MattDNole on Dec 1, 2008 10:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

How is Commack?

I don’t know anything about him. Bobby said he thinks Jimbo will open up competition for EJ Manuel. That worrys me. I think Ponder has a lot of potential and progressed nicely in this offense. This offense isn’t one designed for him to put up huge numbers.

by UNFNOLE on Dec 1, 2008 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Great size.

Unproven talent.

I think he got one reception this year in the early games and played a bit during the BC game.

He was recruited by this WR coach and not the previous one.

Probably going to play the Surrency to Fortson’s Carr.

by MattDNole on Dec 1, 2008 11:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

This brings up a great point

At the start of the year I was extremely hopeful for the future under Ponder. At the end of the season I am much less so. I understand the OLine problems and give him credit but he has serious trust issues. How many pitches did he make from option this year, 3? How many times did he throw to where the WR was going to be without seeing it first? Not many I’d wager.

FSUncensored,
I’m curious as to your take since I think you’ve been a little easy on him comparatively speaking.

by RollinNole on Dec 1, 2008 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Look for a pretty big piece on Ponder in the coming days.

He definitely needs to improve his trust in the OLine (they got better in pass pro as the season wore on), and his general accuracy overall. Consistency in mechanics could help here a lot.

Now, do I think he was better than anything we’ve showcased since Rix as a sophomore? Yes. Still, if he doesn’t improve in 2009, we won’t make the leap from a top 30 offense to a top 10 offense.

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by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

I know it’s early (OK WAY EARLY) but Ponder or EJ next year?

I like Ponder as I think hes got the skill and the head for it just needs more work. Hold off on EJ till hes a RS Junior (Like the 90’s?)

by RollinNole on Dec 1, 2008 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I can't honestly evaluate that as I haven't seen EJ take a snap (we had at least seen Ponder and co. in spring)

I also don’t believe in the idea that a QB either has it or doesn’t have it and can’t improve. To me that’s tantamount to saying “QB is the only position where coaching doesn’t matter.”

Hopefully one QB really emerges in spring, and emerges as a result of great play, not just poor play by his competitor.

Also, if we weren’t so damn Belicheckian in our injury info, we’d have a better idea of how injured Ponder was throughout the year.

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by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Word of the Day:

Belicheckian

by RollinNole on Dec 1, 2008 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

D'Vo is done as a QB.

Combining the lack of intelligence with the lack of commitment (baseball) and the non-physical health issues, I will assume he is no longer being considered an option. Though, I think most in the know have assumed Drew was the true #2 if anything were to happen for the long stretch.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I meant for next season.

Drew will be gone.

If D’Vo is done, we are very thin at QB.

by MattDNole on Dec 1, 2008 12:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Correct me if I am wrong

but that is pretty standard isn’t it?

by UNFNOLE on Dec 1, 2008 12:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Are you ever going to address the non-physical health issues?

or will they ever be disclosed anywhere? I could care less what he has, I just wish he’d play football.

by Weasie on Dec 1, 2008 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My guess is he focuses entirely on baseball.

The general sentiments seem to be that he isn’t very smart, and can’t grasp the playbook. The non-physical health issues (mental) need to be viewed just like a physical issue would be viewed. It’s not something he can just “get over.”

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Andrew Carter made this point as well...

… so will D’Vo go 3rd on the depth chart or will the staff move him? He’s a heck of an athlete and needs to be on the field.

We know he’s had some reps at WR. Could he do anything on the other side of the ball? We do need DBs.

You guys toss that one around a little.

by Aussierat on Dec 2, 2008 1:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Reliford is an athletic freak that will need a lot of time to develop

and he will need to stay in school of course.

by FSUStateOfMind on Dec 1, 2008 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Matt, thanks for putting this together.

I’m a die-hard, but honestly my frustration has kept me from even thinking about next year yet. I think many will agree the situation on defense is by no means dire IF there’s new blood leading these guys. Honestly, who wouldn’t want to work with this type of talent, even as green as most of it is? (I mean, seriously, I know there are holes, but to a young DC looking at this cupboard, would it not be safe to say that the potential of the defense, especially with the recruiting pipelines we have in place, would look at least better than serviceable?) Agree that Robinson is an absolute must-keep – this probably can’t be overstated.

by TRMNole on Dec 1, 2008 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think our LB core

remains good. I am not concerned at Rover. I don’t think any of those guys are a huge drop off from Rolle (though I haven’t been big on him). CB scares me a little…… but as long as Mangum and Jenije improve their coverage skills slightly i think they will take a step forward (and their tackling skills). Tell me about Recardo Wright?

I don’t want to see Thacker lining up anymore, unless it’s to lift weights. He is soft, terrible technique, and a un-intelligent player.

by UNFNOLE on Dec 1, 2008 11:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

We should be alright at LB; not quite as good regarding depth as we used to be though.

Wright has played some on special teams and as a backup to Nicholson. If I remember correctly we recruited him hard against Alabama.

The problem with each of the guys named at Rover is that none has played a single down of college football. I personally think Nick Moody would make a great outside linebacker.

Thacker provides depth if nothing else. Oh… and cheerleading. Oh… and he says “Are you ready?” before the games.

by MattDNole on Dec 1, 2008 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

err… maybe he says “On your feet.”

Either way, can we really find someone else to do that?

by MattDNole on Dec 1, 2008 11:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

maybe I shouldn't say this......

BUT
Is he only playing because of affirmative action?

by UNFNOLE on Dec 1, 2008 11:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It's the Kyler Hall Clause.

by MattDNole on Dec 1, 2008 11:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He was white?

You would never know if you heard him talk.

by UNFNOLE on Dec 1, 2008 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

But you would if you saw him getting burned by a WR.

by MattDNole on Dec 1, 2008 11:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

that's not the way affirmative action works in case you weren't aware

by andy_wooster on Dec 1, 2008 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

are you being serious?

Let’s hope not.

by UNFNOLE on Dec 1, 2008 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

yes

Thacker’s not playing because he’s white, he’s playing because we don’t have much at DT. I have no idea why you think “affirmative action” somehow comes into play here. Perhaps you could explain what you think “affirmative action” is, and how it fits to what was being discussed here.

by andy_wooster on Dec 1, 2008 7:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think he was joking, maybe not.

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by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 7:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think this is pretty much accurate.

If Mincey can stay in school (grades), he will start. McCray is my #2, with Kendrick and Budd spelling him. I’m pretty happy with that lineup.

*We need Vince in the middle, but I agree that he might not be ready.

I wouldn’t at all be surprised to see Mizell get extensive playing time.

Again, Dekoda needs to make sure his GRADES are in line.

I am very worried if Mister Alexander is asked to play a major role in.

Can we afford to play a rover on a full time basis with Jamie as our free? Maybe Jamie will improve with the extra year.

The overwhelming theme here is inexperience (not youth) in the secondary and grades (Mincey, Watson, N. Carr, Moody, Alexander, etc.) These guys need to get in the classroom.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Your last paragraph contains a frightening list.

Goodness gracious, how far has one season of trusting another site and falling out of the loop with some of my contacts in Tally (anyone else had that first child yet?) cost me as far as information as fundamentally necessary to Seminole fans as how key guys are performing in the classroom? I hate to continue this theme, but there is fraud being committed in the Seminole online community.

by TRMNole on Dec 1, 2008 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I just find it funny that we assume guys who have had previous academic trouble will suddenly become model students.

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by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Seems as though kids

that struggle with qualifiying never amount to much in college.

by FSUStateOfMind on Dec 1, 2008 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

FSU's future

Gator fan here. FSU has to bite the bullet and somehow force Coach Bowden to retire. This unknown situation of when he will retire is not good or going to get any better. If Coach Fisher is the future, he needs to get his own staff in and develop an identity. The longer it goes the more doubts about Fisher. For every year Coach Bowden stays it may cost you two years to overcome and move back to title contention.

by oldtimegator on Dec 1, 2008 10:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Umm, we know.

But thanks.

by TRMNole on Dec 1, 2008 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Be concerned about your backup

quarterback. From all accounts, he is terrible.

by UNFNOLE on Dec 1, 2008 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

QB

He’s played very little. After backing up Tebow another year he will be ready to step in as a junior. Your QB concerns are more urgent. Ponder seems to be a slightly more mobile Weatherford. #10 doesn’t seem to have mastered it yet, and do you really want a redshirt freshman starting.

by oldtimegator on Dec 1, 2008 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think Ponder fits the offense

far more than Weatherford does. I have spoken to some big time Gator fans who are nervous about what you guy can do. I don’t think we have an urgent concern at quarterback. Sounds to me like you only watched the UF game though. I am not worried about Ponder winning out the job.

by UNFNOLE on Dec 1, 2008 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It’ll be interesting to see what Tebow does in the off season. If UF goes on to win it all Tebow will really have nothing to accomplish in college. Sure he has questions in his game relative to the pro level, but everybody does. The big sticking point is the possible rookie salary cap that very well could go into effect in 2010. There are expected to be a record number of underclassmen entering the draft because of this. Will Tebow be one of them?

by evenflow58 on Dec 1, 2008 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Good call about the rookie salary cap

but do we think he has high draft stock? I don’t. I dont know if he is a first round gamble or not.

by UNFNOLE on Dec 1, 2008 4:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He’s got a strong accurate arm, leadership qualities, and guts it out. Yes, he’s a first round pick. Maybe not top 10, but a first round pick for sure. If you’re taking Vince Young in the top 5 why would you not take Tebow?

by evenflow58 on Dec 1, 2008 7:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Vince young and Culpepper are arguments against Tebow.

Donny Brook (The Territory) said:

PROS
*throws a great deep ball
*solid arm strength
*great build
*good character and work ethic
*Powerful runner
*Good pocket presence

CONS
*too long of a release
*mechanics have not improved over his career
*footwork is HORRENDOUS
*not especially accurate on middle routes
*his WR’s speed make a lot of his throws look better than they really are

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by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 7:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Add a Wonderlic score that may make Vince Young embarrassed

by CaStauch on Dec 1, 2008 8:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Culpepper was a great QB for awhile

But he eventually learned the pro game, which is an exception. The year Manning broke the TD record Culpepper came 2nd in MVP voting.

"I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."-Bill Hicks

by FSBlueApocalypse on Dec 2, 2008 2:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I make the Vince Young comparison because they are both similar athletes (although Tebow’s more of a FB type runner while Young was more of a WR type runner). However, Tebow is better because he can move through reads. Vince Young’s reads consisted of 2 WRs and then run. How a scout can overlook that is beyond me.

Tebow has the physical skills and the intangibles. Coaches and scouts will go with the belief that they can teach him correct form and that will help his accuracy. If Tebow is able to pull out a BCS win similar to something Vince Young did he’ll be a top 5 pick, if not he’ll be a top 20 pick. Either way he’s a first rounder IMO. There’s just to much talent and hype about him (and he’s backed that up).

by evenflow58 on Dec 2, 2008 8:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No way will he be a top 5 pick. Not happening.

He could win 2 more national titles. He has way too much working against him now.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 2, 2008 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I said the same thing about Vince Young

by evenflow58 on Dec 2, 2008 12:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

We've learned lessons since Alex Smith.

Trust me on this, nobody will take Tebow with a top 5 pick.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 2, 2008 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think ponders the man

No hes not the best QB ever but hes good enough and with a O-line as young as ours and another year I might make some heads turn. Second the kid we have after him no talking about Dvo but EJ when he steps in will taking over a Off of Jimbos not Jeffs. I think he will be what we got him for.

by Desman on Dec 1, 2008 9:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Time, Talent & Excuses

While suffering today in a land chock full of lizards, I cannot get past the fact that Alabama is suddenly among the elite, while the Noles continue to struggle. How is it that in TWO Years, Saban has transformed their talent level and production from a starting point that was BELOW where Florida State was? I am bored with the institutional acceptance of this mediocrity. Leadership and High Expectations matter.
How can this continue to be so acceptable to the people who make these decisions?

wac

by FSUwac87 on Dec 1, 2008 11:34 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I believe Mickey and Chuck are done, effective Jan 2., 2008

Either that or a lot of folks are e-mailing for no reason.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Regarding Chuck

And your upcoming article about him.

Notice how bad our LB recruiting has been since Steele left? Bradham was a virtual lock to come here. Carr was part of a hugh class from the same high school, and I think Williams had strong family ties to FSU as well. Either way, Carr was recruited by Dawsey and Williams by Haggins.

Mizell is being recruited by Carter.

We used to be good for at least two 4 star LBs per year. Chuck hasn’t pulled two 4 star LBs the whole time he’s been here.

Wait… does that mean you’re hearing something positive?

by MattDNole on Dec 1, 2008 11:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Vince Williams's brother

is a beast. Name is Karlos. He is a WR/DB class of 2011. I know it’s early and I know it’s not the reason we took Vince, but damn his brother is a prospect.

by FSUStateOfMind on Dec 1, 2008 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Do you think if they leave

that would encourage Bobby to leave? I think he would hate watching two of his good friends go.

by UNFNOLE on Dec 1, 2008 11:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

This is the house of cards idea I alluded to the other night.

If you take two, and replace them, he doesn’t have his friends left on staff

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by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm still confused.

Are you saying that they are gone? Or that more people want them gone now and are emailing administration about it?

by MattDNole on Dec 1, 2008 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Boosters e-mailing saying that Chuck and Mick are done.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 12:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Just to be a dick...

They’ve already survived your deadline. I’m assuming you meant Jan 2, 2009. That’s what you get for going to lawschool…loss of brain cells ;)

by evenflow58 on Dec 1, 2008 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Damn right.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You mean Jan. 2 2009

by windycitynole on Dec 1, 2008 8:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Mickey & Chuck

Who will have the courage to make that call? Our new AD? TK? I would like to believe that these individuals see the writing on the wall and will step up. Where should the pressure be applied?

wac

by FSUwac87 on Dec 1, 2008 11:51 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

They don't nor should they

have any say about the coaches staff. This should be up to the head coach (regardless of how you feel about Bowden)

by UNFNOLE on Dec 1, 2008 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed. We need to keep the chain of command. Otherwise, it sets a horrible precedent.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

So what next

1) this season is not over. We are going bowling.
2) If BB and MA stay one more year which Im under the impresion they are Is it going to piss Jimbo off and make him want to leave or could it kill us. Im scared Jimbo could fall into a position where he will get what is left of a once great place to coach.
3)What is it going to take to get BB and MA out to get Jimbo in. I love BB and MA but come on, its time to throw in the towl BB isnt going to catch Joe Pa.

by Desman on Dec 1, 2008 1:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

1. I’m hearing Gator bowl, but not sure yet.

2. Don’t assume that Bobby staying = Mickey staying. Do assume that Bobby leaving = Mickey leaving. Mickey could leave and Bobby could stay. Very possible.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I just want to know what did it take for us to get rid of Jeff. I dont think MA has made it that far yet but after another year where we are not improving like this one would that be enough. Second, If we have another one next year what would that do to the schools Rep. I worry we wont get the recruts on D like we will need. Mabye we can get Jimbo to help out with the Def next year

by Desman on Dec 1, 2008 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

A big chunk of change. We literally threw so much money at him that he cou;dn't resufe.

This isn’t the same deal with Mickey. Mickey deserves an honorable send off. He has been a GREAT Seminole. He is my favorite FSU coach of all time. My guess is he bows out gracefully this offseason.

I suspect Bobby’s end will be ugly (death or forced out)

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

this season went by to fast

There should be 4 more games in the season. add a playoff or something it seams like 4 weeks ago we started off playing. I hate looking at it maybe next year or something like that. Now I have one game to talk about and its going to be 2mo before I can see it then another 7mo to preach about FSU. I need to get into another sport.

by Desman on Dec 1, 2008 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Desman, get into baseball. March (spring training) thru October.

by FSUStateOfMind on Dec 1, 2008 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ill try but

Its kinda hard because I have a lot of family that are NCST, UNC and WF fans and I would hate to have to have pride in FSU and watch them lose to them. I love FSU football and will die preaching them. BB can kill us w/ MA and Ill still beleave. But when it comes to B-ball my wife would rag on me all year if the pack or UNC is in the March mad.

by Desman on Dec 1, 2008 6:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think even if he is

‘forced out’ we will never know. Bobby has too much pride to be forced out. He will just say it is the end of the road for him.

by UNFNOLE on Dec 1, 2008 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And that's just fine.

by TRMNole on Dec 1, 2008 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

As long as he leaves, I don't care what he says.

by FSUStateOfMind on Dec 1, 2008 4:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Dumb question time.

What’s the latest on family, friends, associates, ANYONE having a kind, respectful conversation with Bobby about it being time to step down for the preservation of his once-great legacy? Does his family really want him to go on? Really? Can you imagine that no one EVER politely discusses the situation with Bobby as any friend or loving family member would? Is anyone anywhere close enough to this guy to know? Is he that cold about this? That defiant?

And to switch gears just slightly, what are the conversations with TK really like? Can TK honestly go from relieving himself in his orange and blue urinal to grinning and salivating and handing over a $2.5 million dollar check to a man who already has been more than compensated for what he has accomplished for this program, while offering him absolutely no chance to beat Florida for as long as he’s the head coach? Sure, it’s always added up before, but it doesn’t add up today. Not after Saturday. And okay, it didn’t add up after the game last year either, but it really doesn’t add up today. It can’t go down again, can it? What am I missing? I’m so close to something here. What is it i’m close to?

by TRMNole on Dec 1, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

First Uncensored, good read and thank you for not having us shell out $9.99 a month to read/post here

1. I had no idea the offense has improved that much over the course of the year. I think serves as proof the miracle worker Jimbo is and helped me put away some doubts I had about his ability to be a head coach.

2. That being said, the fact Ponder still at times looked like he couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn makes me wonder about his ability to be the QB guru everyone made him out to be.

3. We’re still atleast 2 recruiting classes away from being close to UF right now.

4. The defense still has talent on it, albeit really young talent. If we somehow did manage to fire Mickey, Amato, etc, and got somebody who could actually teach discipline, assignment football, we could stay about where we’re at on defense.

"I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."-Bill Hicks

by FSBlueApocalypse on Dec 1, 2008 2:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Fine post, but I want to make one very important point.

Ponder isn’t Jimbo’s guy. Jimbo couldn’t make me into a good college quarterback if I were on the roster when he got here. (How’s that for an exaggerated example?) Let’s look at Jimbo’s excellent resume with quarterbacks and see what he does with E.J. The expectations are very high, and Jimbo’s said nothing to dampen those expectations since E.J. arrived on campus.

by TRMNole on Dec 1, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

going Bowling

as of right now on ESPN Mark Schlabach & Bruce Feldman think we will go to the Champs Sports bowl to face Wisconsin. I dont know how they will pick the bowl we go to but I kinda would like to go because my best friend is from there and is the biggest Wisconsin/ Packer fan. I would love to beat them and have something else to throw in his face. Also we can go to a lot of bowls I thought. I dont know what bowl is better than the other. I know the BCS bowl are the best but after that does it realy matter. Im sure it does who wants us to go to the Eagle Bank Bowl, Meineke Car Care, or the Gaylord Hotels Music City again.

by Desman on Dec 1, 2008 2:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I am pretty sure...

We’re going to go to the Gator Bowl vs Nebraska. Obviously it’s not 100% certain but if I was a betting man I’d put my money on that.

I think Chick-Fil-A > Gator > Champs, but I’m not sure.

by pbysh on Dec 1, 2008 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

This seems to be the prevailing thought.

I’d say we are

65% Gator Bowl v. Nebraska
25% Champs sports Bowl
10% Chick-fil-a (peach) bowl

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You're right

We have an outside shot at the Chick-Fil-A, but that’s about as likely as the Cowgirls coming into my apartment handle of Patron in hand

"I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."-Bill Hicks

by FSBlueApocalypse on Dec 1, 2008 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

would be funny

If we went to the gator bowl and faced Nab. they dont run the Option anymore so we wouldnt have to worry about that at least.

by Desman on Dec 1, 2008 2:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Quick Selection Order
1. BCS
2. Chick-fil-A
3. Konica Minolta Gator
4. Champs Sports
5-7. Gaylord Hotels Music City
5-7. Meineke Car Care
5-7. Emerald
8. Roady’s Humanitarian
9. EagleBank
We fall in the 2-4 game Champs Sports
ACC vs. Big Ten Orlando, Fla.
Florida Citrus Bowl Dec. 27, 4:30 p.m. this is the only bowl in its time spot
Konica Minolta Gator
ACC vs. Big 12/Big East/Notre Dame Jacksonville, Fla.
Jacksonville Municipal Stadium Jan. 1, 2009, 1 p.m. this bowl would compeat with the Capital One.
I dont think we will make the peach bowl but who knows I think Vtec would go there.

by Desman on Dec 1, 2008 3:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

GT is hearing very favorably from the Peach bowl. They’d bring 40-50k easily, and have had a season that warrants their inclusion (peach tends to go for the best available ACC team to match up against the SEC).

FSU vs. Nebraska in the Gator is a very likely possibility.

by CaStauch on Dec 1, 2008 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Was listening to Cameron's show on the net

and they were talking like it was the Gator or the Champs. I don’t think there’s any way we got to Orlando, not if Va. Tech wins the ACC. I guess if Va Tech loses, then the Gator may opt for them because they are the only other ACC team with a good-enough traveling fan base to sway the Gator’s eye. (Other than Clemson, which is headed to a lesser-tier bowl)

by hopnole23 on Dec 1, 2008 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And I forgot

if the Gator picks Nebraska, then it’s easy since Va. Tech and Neb already played each other

by hopnole23 on Dec 1, 2008 6:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I just hate how its not about who is the better team

I understand GT would make more money and hell they are a good team to go to the bowl but I think the team that should go is the better team. the loser of the ACCCG should go to the peach bowl not GT because they will make more money from them. Second I think they should get the best teams for the best game. Whos going to watch a game that no one cares about. I know its never going to change but man sometimes the Bowl stuff sucks. I hope Utah make it to a good BCS game and gets blown out the water.

by Desman on Dec 1, 2008 3:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

The BCS is about 1 v. 2 Everything else is about selling tickets.

That is the way the Bowl system has always worked.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

One day when Im Im in charge I will change that.

But untell then looks like we are screwd

by Desman on Dec 1, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Desman, Bowl Commissioner.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

as my first few acts

FSUncensored gets to pick the ACC teams going to what bowls
FSUed and TrueCubbie get to pick the rest and we all get to go to the Sheraton Hawaii bowl all payed for well eveyone currently on TN

by Desman on Dec 1, 2008 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

We have a winner.

by TRMNole on Dec 2, 2008 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

last think on my mind

so the pac 10 is going to send USC ove Org St. didnt USC lose to them. I dont get how that works out. Org St lost to Stanf. and 2 out of conf games. but beat USC.

by Desman on Dec 1, 2008 3:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

OSU also lost to Oregon.

If UCLA beats USC, Oregon State goes to the Rose Bowl.

by MattDNole on Dec 1, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Correct. Oregon scored 65 points on Oregon State.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Good read

I remember trying to convince my brother that we would win 8 games and him telling me I was crazy. It was a good season and an improved season, but we have a long way to go. The offense was leagues better as your numbers bear out, but the defense slipped again. Hopefully we can beat Nebraska and send Bobby out with a win, then get to rebuilding the defense and that unit’s staff.

by hopnole23 on Dec 1, 2008 4:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

We can handle Nebraska.

by UNFNOLE on Dec 1, 2008 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I would love to send Bobby out with a win.

Right now, though, I’d trade a bowl loss for some certainty in NCAA sanctions and a promise that our kids won’t fail out in the spring term.

Glad you enjoyed. Did your brother check it out? I know the stats are pretty complicated. I have trouble understanding them sometimes, but I do believe they are a very well designed metric.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 5:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

so who are we pulling for in the ACCCG

Also what is people feeling about the ACC teams playing in there bowls Are we pulling for them as ACC fans or you guys not going to care

by Desman on Dec 1, 2008 6:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Va Tech. I want to say i beat the champ

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 6:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

what he said

by hopnole23 on Dec 1, 2008 6:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

virginia tech

anyone but bc… if you lived in new england, you’d understand…

I will pull for acc teams in their bowls, I still have some acc pride left

by tdchrisdavis on Dec 1, 2008 6:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Acc has an excellent shot at a nice bowl season from the projected matchups I've seen so far.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 6:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

amen to that

by Renegade11 on Dec 1, 2008 6:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Its about time

It has been to long for the ACC away from the top. We need to strike now while the teams from the pac 10, big 10 and big east are down. We need to hope the ACC gets the low tear teams from the big 12 because the ACC cant win in a shoot out unless sad to say GT is in it. Last I think The ACC can win a lot of games if UVA and Maryland play that week. but they shoud get eazy games I hope. As for FSU’s game we will see how and who we get I hope you are right because I would love to woop anyone.

by Desman on Dec 1, 2008 9:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Post Card from Nebraska

It’s been a long time since FSU and Nebraska played. FSU ‘owns’ the series. Looking forward to meeting FSU fans, Florida hospitality and a fun game in the Gator Bowl.

Horse Farmer

by Teamster on Dec 1, 2008 9:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Hey Husker! I too look forward to renewing this rivalry.

Forgive everyone here if they are a bit on edge, we’re facing some interesting leadership dynamics here.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 10:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

As awful as the game was...

still had a pretty amazing first time trip to Tallahassee….couple fun highlights:

1. first night randomly met Terrell Buckley and Odell Haggins while walking around the stadium at dusk. I walked by and knew immediately that it was Terrell but my Dad and brothers didnt believe me. My dad went back and asked if he was in fact Terrell Buckley, and he answered “Depends on whose asking” and sure enough it was him. Got to talk to them both for like 10 minutes. Odell thought we were gonna shock the world.
2. doing the tomahawk chop with 65,000 fans instead of just your brother in your living room is highly underrated.
3. curious to know what the application requirements are to be a waitress at po’boys…..whatever they are i’d like my gf to have them.
4. got to meet rick trickett while walking through the hall of fame room. didn’t know snake skin cowboy boots were in style still. i guess i dont get to see much of that up north….what is he 5’2?
5. standing in line at checkers in the atlanta airport yesterday on the trip home and realize that toney douglas is standing next to me ordering a large #3 with a mr. pibb. couldn’t find leonard hamilton anywhere though…
6. poncho’s from the garnet and gold store don’t work in monsoon like conditions…
7. peter warrick looks like he has put on a little bit of weight….
8. i was embarassed at the number of gator fans that were there. it was difficult to tell at first with all of the different colored ponchos but with 2 minutes remaining you could def make out who was rooting for which team….
9. i didnt think it was possible to hate the gators more than i already did….apparently i was wrong

by Renegade11 on Dec 1, 2008 10:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Glad you had a great time!

I can’t believe you got to meet those guys, that is awesome!

Po’Boys does have some sights. I actually dated one off and on for a while in ’05 or ’06.

Snake Skin boots are not in style really, but Rick Trickett could walk around pantless if he wanted to.

We definitely need to reclaim the Doak and I think we soon will.

Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis

by FSUncensored on Dec 1, 2008 10:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder if Jimbo makes it an explicit goal when he assumes duties as HC. Meyer, in his first press conference, made the audacious public goals that they’d retake the swamp and beat FSU, UT, UGa. Jimbo doesn’t seem like one to make these claims to the media, but I wonder about the true personality of Fisher. More and more I feel like he’s neutering himself as to make sure he doesn’t offend or step on the toes of one his idols.

by CaStauch on Dec 1, 2008 11:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Jimbo

I’m sure Jimbo’s agent is not happy. I think Jimbo’s market value keeps declining as Bobby stays. Not because he’s not doing a good job, but because his window for when he does get the job won’t be as long if FSU is not instantly better. It’s like we are rebuilding with Jimbo, but only halfway. So when Bobby retires, say next year, there will be some more rebuilding to do. I just wish the rebuilding would happen right now. This process is becoming so slow and drawn out. Jimbo and his agent probably want some intensity…plans in motion…excitement. Instead they are dying slow with Bowden. It’s like, yeah, I can stomach one more year with Bowden, but one “Bowden year” feels like five normal years. It’s like were on Mars or something, where years last longer.

by mp212121 on Dec 1, 2008 10:50 PM EST rep

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