FSU Player Development and Attrition, and has a change in control occured? Wednesday's open recruiting thread
by Bud Elliott on Dec 10, 2008 6:00 AM EST
in FSU Football
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PrintYesterday I asked our members to take on a little project. Today, we will discuss the development of players from the 2006 and 2007 classes in an attempt to figure out what the Noles are doing well and what areas still need a lot of work. PLUS, I have a few exciting recruiting links, and more thoughts on the Jimbo to Auburn deal. This is a big update, so have a look.
Your assignments are due. Let's get to this. Discussion throughout the day. What can we learn from this exercise about player development and the recruiting pratcices at FSU in the 2006 and 2007 seasons?
Links about prospects (lemme know if you have any non-premium links)
Remember when I said that the rumor was the defensive guys had lost their authority to decide who gets an offer? The rumor said Jimbo now had that power. We might just be seeing the first signs of this as I am hearing that FSU has offered ESPN's 77th ranked CB (scouting report there). This offer could be the indication that the staff changes have happened.
He's also being recruited by NCSt, Arkansas State, Ball State, Buffalo, Kent, Western Michigan
I'm not in love with this prospect, but I am absolutely giddy over the idea that Chuck Amato could be gone. Democrat Reporter insinuates that Amato needs to surrender the title of Executive Head Coach
One important area is the matter of team policies where players have told us behind the scenes, that at times, the delivered messages from the staff are mixed.
Ultimately, Bowden is the boss. But Bowden has always delegated many of the day-to-day dealings to his staff. In recent years that has come with a title of executive head coach. Kevin Steele owned that title and the duties that come with it before heading to Alabama. Now it belongs to Chuck Amato.
This recomendation [sic] has nothing to do with execution of that role but as a matter of practicality. The final voice on such delegated matters should belong to Fisher and there should be no confusion about that. It's one of the missing links in making this transition work.
I'm not paid to make readers happy like Ellis is, so I'll go ahead and say that Amato is easily the guy the insiders complain about the most. They consider him a clown, a fraud, a total has been who is drawing a charity paycheck, and someone who has zero hope of ever landing another decent D1 head coaching job. Rumor has it that he is the one who frustrates jimbo the most. Hopefully Chuck "The Clown" Amato has recruited his last kid for FSU.
It appears O'Dell Haggins got back to doing what he does best: Recruit. The guy who Pete Carroll called "the best 3-technique tackle prospect I've ever seen", and who ESPN has as the #3 DE prospect Nationally, Demonte McAllister, has canceled all his remaining official visits and reaffirmed his commitment to FSU.
McAllister said he's scratched plans to take other visits because he wants to begin preparing for his career at FSU.
"I'm going to keep working out and concentrate on academics," McAllister said.
It seems that ODell Haggins stopped by to see McAllister this past weekend and did quite the sell job to further cement the initial pull of WR Coach Lawrence Dawsey.
CJ Mizell was named one of the top 12 Linebackers in the Nation. Everyone knows about this kid's troubled past, but I am very happy that we are getting him. Assuming Nigel Carr can stay eligible until 2010, we will have quite the lineup of Juniors and Sophomores at the LB spots.
JC Shurburtt for ESPN.com on Jimbo Fisher's recruiting
Fisher has a good reputation as a recruiter, having earned it as an assistant coach at LSU under Saban and Les Miles and continued the good work at Florida State. With the agreement in place for Fisher to take over as the Noles' head coach when Bobby Bowden retires, recruits evaluate how they feel about Fisher as much as any other part of the FSU program when they examine it. So far, the evaluations have been positive.
Working for Saban has helped many coaches learn recruiting organization, so you can expect similar structure in a recruiting plan for whatever school Fisher is the head coach at, regardless if it's FSU eventually or Auburn. Expect a Fisher staff to also have good recruiters who are accountable for their performance in that area. He understands what must be done to get the necessary talent.
I bolded that for a reason. We will be a recruiting monster once we establish some accountability and cut the now far below acceptable (from a recruiting standpoint) pieces of this staff : Once we jettison Chuck the clown Amato, Bobby Bowden, Mickey Andrews, Dexter Carter (read Sunday's update for more on that, ugh), and Jodey Allen. Jimbo can't currently hold those guys responsible for their recruiting failures/ laziness. Replacing some of the slackers will show some in 2009, but the real impact will be felt in 2010, 2011, and beyond. Think about this: FSU has stayed decent despite really not even making a straight-faced attempt to compete at an elite level in 7 years. All but a handful of programs would have been completely crumbled. We didn't for two reasons: we had a very long way to fall and women (quite the recruiting tool to have the talent of Tallahassee and FamU). The overhaul is coming folks, but slowly.
Interesting Links:
Could Dan Mullen be headed to MSU?
I (for the purposes of this specific update "I" will represent "MattDNole") have thought Charlie Strong would make a better candidate.
Project Results
3 questions:
1. What did the scouting report say about this player's potential?
2. What did the scouring report say this player needed to work on?
3. Has this player improved in the problem area and has he met his potential?
Patrick Robinson
1. Has potential to be an excellent corner. Great physical tools.
2. "He relies so much on his natural tools and needs to work on technique and not take false steps or stop his feet out of the break."
3. He has improved some with experience, though some will argue that he still relies far too much on his natural talents. Critics say that he's as good now as he was at 18 years old and if he is receiving quality coaching, it hasn't shown in his development. Still, though, a very good college corner.
2006 Damon McDaniel- 4th rated receiver in the country. Lots of talent. Transferred after one year at Florida State. Also recruited by UF, LSU, MIAMI, VT, OSU
2006 Daron Rose- 12th rated offensive tackle prospect, very talented. Started in 2007. Fairly promising. Flunked out. Rumored to be at USF for 2009.
2006 Anthony Leon-- 17th rates safety. Size and speed, fluid. Needed coaching. "Has upside to be as good as his cousin-- Sean Taylor" Transferred/ Flunked Out/ Something. No longer here. Recruited by Miami, UF, LSU.
2006 Tim Rawlison- #39 LB prospect. Good size, decent speed. Projected to be a good college player, but not great. Not at FSU, unsure where he went. Grades maybe?
2006 Evan Bellamy- #50 Guard. Bellamy is a player with a nice upside. He is physical and has the frame, but needs to continuing working on technique and consistency. He had a very unfortunate blood clot this offseason, and nobody knows for sure if he will return.
2006 Tyler Graves #91 OL Roster filler. Not an impressive report. "with work, he could become a division 1 player". Still, LSU and Bama offered him. Fairly sure he is not on the roster any more. Probably a good thing.
2006 Brandon Paul. #14 WR. Is a huge threat as a returner and can exploit a tiny crease to take it the distance. Is decisive, can reverse field, cut against the grain and is fun to watch. Size is just marginal for a full-time running back, and durability could be an issue until he adds bulk and strength to his frame. Overall, Paul can be a "hold your breath" type player. Paul had a ton of talent in high school, but by many accounts was lazy at FSU, and thought he could coast on his Lincoln Reputation. Inadequate as a RB and lost in the shuffle at WR, he and the team parted ways early this season, amidst rumors of off-field trouble (never charged with anything).
Desman chipped in 2 evaluations-- thanks, Des!
2006 Dekoda Watson was off the radar as a recruit with a grade of 40 by ESPN. Sence becoming a Nole DW has made a name for himself being named to the ALL ACC Fr team and playing in 12 games in 2006. in 2007 he started all 12 games and was ranked 5th on the team w/ a single-season career-high 50 tackles. DW came in to Talla 6-2, 206lb and ran a 4.62. He is up to 227 as a Jr and I feel he has become one of the best parts of the Def. I think he will come back and become a leader on the Def. The only problem we have had with him that I have found is that he was part of the cheating scandal.
ed note: DW has potential to be really freakishly good as a senior as he is an absolute beast of an ethlete. One of the few hidden gems in 2006
2007 Dionte Allen is a 5'11 175 CB from Saint Mary's Prep School (MI), and was an ESPN top 150 (#5 corner prospect in the country). He tore something in spring practice and was not able to get in as fast as we wanted. He is the guy behind Tony carter. He RS in 2007. I don't know what he did this year because TC & PR were always in. From the looks of his report maybe we should have had him in if he was healthy. The bad thing is hes kinda short at 5'11. The scout report says hes the man with speed and agility. Basically this guy is going to be a great CB. Only time will tell with him. I thought he had some playing time this year but I'm not 100%. We should see him on the field as a starter next year.
ed note: I think the main knock on Allen is his inability to stay healthy. Let's all hope that he shakes this and stays healthy enough to contend for a top spot in the spring.
ChileanNole brings us the following about one of our talented linebackers:
2007 Kendall Smith
1. The evaluation of Kendall is that "Smith is an athletic linebacker prospect, but he is at his best between the tackles defending the run. He has good lateral movement and does a good job of taking on blocks. He has a good motor and hustles to the ball. He has good speed and displays a bit of a burst to the ball carrier. He is solid in his zone drops and can survive in space. Smith though is at his best near the line of scrimmage and taking on the run."
2. They said that "he will drop his head at times. He does a good job of using his hands to work over the top of blocks and get to plays on the perimeter. He is not a true sideline-to-sideline linebacker, but he does take good angles to the ball in pursuit. He needs to add some bulk to continue his physical style at the college level, but should be a good linebacker in college especially in running situations."
3. Reading the evaluation they project Smith as a fill in the hole run stopper LB. So far that seems to be the case. Of course. He has not seen the field as much yet with our depth at the position. They also say that he needs to bulk up to continue to improve and perfect his coverage skills. From all reports is seems as he has put on some weight and should continue to develop as a run stopper with increased playing time next year. The coverage skills are what concern me a bit. In the past, our LBs (with the exception of Ernie Sims who when asked could shut down a TE if not ask Kellen Winslow, Greg Olsen and Heath Miller) have been exploited in coverage. We seem to rely too much on our CBs and Safeties to fill in that role and good playcallers have taken advantage of it. Although I like the bigger more aggressive LBs, that aggressiveness has been used against us and with the proliferation of the spread and misdirection offenses, it is my opinion that we should ask our LBs to aid more in pass coverage situations. The only ones that did a good job at that in the current roster are Verdell and Ingram, both are converted safeties to LB.
evenflow58 brought us two more evaluations.
2006 Caz Piurowski
1. Should be an excellent all around TE at the college level, but needs to add weight. Good with the ball in the air and in pass blocking situations. Tough to bring down.
2. Needs to work on route running, which is solid but could improve.
3. The report doesn’t really say much bad about Caz. I believe he’s a better blocker than receiver at this point in his career but I think that has to do with the teams necessity than anything else as he’s often held in for blocking. He’s probably not athletic enough to play TE as a primary pass catcher but has seen his role increase along with the improvement of the Oline. Based on the scouting report he has not met his potential as a receiver but has definitely met it as a blocker.
2007 Bert Reed
1. "…An electrifying speedster in space and a nightmare to handle one-on-one in the open field." Projects as a WR even though he played QB in high school. Displays initial quickness, elusiveness, and "an impressive second-gear in the open field". "Smaller Percy Harvin." Tough and not afraid to lower his shoulder. Always in control.
2. Needs to add bulk in the weight room.
3. So far so good for Reed. He does need to add more weight to his frame but that’s expected for somebody of his age. The scouting report seems spot on as we’ve seen his play making ability this year. He needs to improve his blocking though. The biggest problem with Reed has been off the field. His attitude will most likely determine how far he goes more than his talent.
MattDNole evaluated three members of the 2006 class.
2006 Seddrick Holloway
1. Holloway is pretty much described as the perfect fullback. “Holloway is a well rounded prospect at the fullback position as he can run, block, and catch the ball.” They mention that he runs with a low center of gravity and can actually be effective with the ball in his hands and should be a target in the flat as a receiver.
2. His size and ability to hold blocks are the two major concerns listed.
3. I think over two years we’ve seen exactly what the ESPN scouts saw. In 2007 Holloway seemed to have 3 or 4 dive plays that he turned into long runs. I believe the only thing that hindered him this year was the presence of a healthy Marcus Sims to take away his playing time. It seems like Jimbo prefers a big running back at FB, and Holloway is a true fullback. Holloway still had a few catches this season, and even caught a TD against GT. He has grown into a bigger fullback, but I don’t think we run enough I formation sets to truly find a problem in his blocking skills.
2006 Ochuko Jenije
1. Ochuko’s most positive quality is that he is a consistent player. Not so much spectacular, but a workman who will do what he needs to in order to get the job done. They mention that he is better suited for safety because of a lack of speed, but that he would do very well as a FS who could read the quarterback and make plays.
2. " (he) lack(s) the acceleration and quickness" to play corner in college. He is a good tackler, but not very powerful.
3. Well… hope they were wrong, because Ochuko will probably be a starting corner for us next year. I think this is another failure of our defensive staff who likes to take tall, quick safeties and try to turn them into cornerbacks. Ochuko has seemed to improve as the season has gone along, and I’d even be comfortable with him as a second CB to Patrick Robinson so they were right on about his competitiveness and consistency. But I don’t think we’re going to get a lock-down corner out of Mr. Jenije.
2006 Myron Rolle
1. Can throw passes and catch them himself…. unless he defends them first.
Seriously, the hype for this guy was unbelievable. I can’t even begin to summarize the positives they had on this guy. Read for yourself.
“Spectacular is the word that comes to mind when evaluating Myron Rolle. This guy has the total package; size, speed, athleticism, toughness and versatility. He could be an impact player immediately at three different positions; running back, safety or cornerback. We project him as a corner or cover safety. Rolle is a physical, aggressive defensive back and the sky’s the limit in terms of upside. Is a big, physical and confident corner. He has elite size, strength and speed and is what every college coach wants in a corner. Shows rare quickness – hips are extremely fluid and he shows very little wasted motion when changing directions. Is smooth and has outstanding instincts and feel in coverage. Shows ability to cover opponents’ top receiver on an island and take him out of the game. His plant and drive ability is what makes him a playmaker -few have his closing quickness at his size. His lateral movement is excellent and he is an absolute playmaker. His range is excellent when asked to play zone. Shows excellent ball skills and the ability to challenge for the ball in the air. Gets into receivers bodies and shows an understanding of bump-and-run technique. Is strong at the point of attack and can turn and run with most receivers. Has good hands and also breaks up a lot of passes. Has the size and leaping ability to make plays on deep routes. Is really active in all aspects of the game. Plays with great leverage and has wonderful pop at the point of attack. Is active against the run – is a solid, powerful, wrap-up tackler. Aside from his physical ability, he is smart and has a natural feel for the game. Slated to play rover, safety and cornerback at the college level.”
2. Needed to work on? Weaknesses? What are those? I mean… can an aversion to kryptonite be considered a weakness?
3. Well obviously Myron Rolle is not a corner. Myron Rolle is not even a “cover” safety. Myron Rolle is a middle linebacker who does quite read and react as well as you’d think given his GPA. Still, he’s a brilliant guy and a great ambassador. Let’s remember him as that, and not as the second coming of Prime Time.
2006 Kevin McNeil
1. He is a very active player, can be very disruptive. At times he can be very explosive. He has a very good motor, and has the ability to be a productive pass rusher.
2. He can be out of control in space, and isnt a sure tackler in space.
3. Mcneil is a odd player to me. I think he does have the ability to be a very good pass rusher, and at times he shows flashes of that ability. He had a pretty good freshman season, now it seems he is often injured now. I think he still needs to work on being a sure tackler, but almost everyone on our d needs to. If he stays healthy i think kevin could be very productive for us next season.
2006 Marcus Ball
1. Athletic, quick feet, excellent change-of-direction skills, outstanding closing speed, physical, uses hands well, good upper body strength, comfortable dropping into zone coverage, “special athlete.” “If he can continue to add size and strength and keep his athleticism he will be a playmaker at the college level.”
2. No. Known. Weaknesses. Article mentions that good pursuit and speed make up for any out-of-position or poor angle decisions.
3. Ball “left the team” before the 2008 season. There was talk of moving him from linebacker to safety. Trouble followed him at FSU, but reports state that his locker was always immaculate and tidy in the 2007 season. I think a lot of us were excited about Marcus and were disappointed at how his story at FSU ended. That said, it was time for the kid to go.
2006 Brandon Warren
1. “Warren is one of those athletes that coaches just want to get on campus.” (Apparently.) Athletic enough to contribute at DE or TE, but “especially intriguing” at TE. Wonderful size, can get bigger, has speed to stretch the field, not afraid of contact, good balance, runs good routes, can create after catch, can outjump linebackers, releases well, potential to be good pass and run blocker. “Regardless of what position he winds up playing Warren should be an outstanding player on the college level.”
2. No. Known. Weaknesses.
3. Freshman All-American with 28 catches for 301 yards and 1 TD. Maybe I’m just a bad person, but for some reason, the image of this non-catch will always be stuck in my mind, however. Or maybe it’s because of some events that transpired after his freshman season. Brandon’s mother, who lives in Tennessee, became deathly ill to the point that she sometimes had to crawl on all fours to reach her pets’ water bowls just to slurp liquid through a straw to provide nourishment to her body (writer’s embellishment…. Brandon’s, not mine). At the same time, rumors persisted that the recruiting process for Brandon had not ended. In fact, during one investigation of Brandon’s apartment, interviewers discovered several orange-frosted half-eaten doughnuts littered throughout the premises. (University of Tennessee officials later argued that then-head coach Phillip Fulmer couldn’t possibly have had any involvement because he never would have left a doughnut half eaten. Touche.) Fortunately, despite these pressures, Brandon honored his commitment to Florida State University. Brandon caught 10 passes for 85 yards for UT in 2008.
2006 Marcus Sims
1. Analysis focuses mostly on his ability as an ILB, but adds that he has “a talented athlete that is also a very good running back.”. As an ILB, has “great first step, can quickly get downhill and fill, and is physical at the point of attack.” Has excellent closing speed and “the quickness to compensate if he takes a poor angle.” Can drop back into zone coverage and has the hips to turn and run with backs in man to man situations. “Navigates well in traffic and is very good at slipping and avoiding blocks.” So what i’m hearing you say is….he is the second coming of his older brother?
2. They don’t offer a word of criticism in this eval
3. Well as we know, Marcus is not playing ILB at FSU but rather as a big body running back used a lot in goal line situations and often seen coming out into the flat catching passes. From what i have heard the coaches are very high on Marcus, not sure if that is the consensus or what. Marcus started slow in 2008 but i think turned in a pretty decent year despite what some will call the play (or lack there of) that ruined our season. For a big guy, he does have decent quickness and is able to catch the ball effectively out of the backfield for the most part. His pass blocking in my opinion is an area of weakness and was glaringly evident this season.
Post away, MattDNole or myself or another author will add them in to the report.
What do you see so far?
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Comments
I say offer every kid on the Pahokee squad....
They are all playmakers!!!!!
On a more serious note, I like the fact that Jimbo is starting to take the reigns our recruiting can only imporve becuase of it.
Anybody hear about Joyner (2010) class having UF as his leader and us at #2 apparetnly he is worried about our defensive coaching situation, that should add more fuel to the discussion we have been having the last few weeks. Joyner is a MUST GET!!!
Dionte Allen
Allen was in during the UMd game for a few plays. It was UMd’s last drive I believe. The defense was playing soft for obvious reasons. Allen gave up a 7-yard hitch but closed quickly as the WR ran out of bounds. The next few plays were runs to the other side of the field. Then the WR ran a stop and go that Allen didn’t bite on and the ball went elsewhere. That’s when Mickey decided he didn’t want UMd to get into the endzone and brought in the starters to shut UMd down.
Not really a lot to go on there but it was nice that he always kept his WR in front of him while playing soft man.
StateofMind mentioned the Byrd news in the other thread.
Let me get this straight. We’ve got guys out there begging for offers, we desperately need corners, and Byrd is the first one we go after?
Don’t get me wrong, Byrd’s a decent player. If he’ll commit here I’ll be thrilled. We need real corners. But read the bottom of that ESPN update:
“Notes
Also recruited by Arkansas State, Ball State, Buffalo, Kent, Western Michigan…”
Did Jayron Hosley take one of our coaches’ daughters out for dinner and never call her back?
Agree with the sentiment
Hosley should have an offer, but all these Pahokee and Belle Glade standouts that we missed on (Jenkins, Odoms, Alphonso Smith, Boldin’s little bro, etc) I am excited that we are focusing on that area. Like I said even though they may not have the best measurables players from that area have shown that they are playmakers and play with a chip on their shoulder attitude that I love.
by ChileanNole on Dec 10, 2008 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
I think Byrd is/will be more than a decent player,
And rumblings are that there’s a very good reason why Jayron isn’t getting looked at by the big 3. (grades)
Darn straight.
If he’s not going to qualify, what’s the harm in giving him an offer? It’s not like he’ll use the scholarship.
Whatever guys, we’ve always got Dre Kirkpatrick to fall back on.
\end sarcasm.
Here's my only thing, and then I'll get off the Hosley kick.
What else are we going to do at cornerback? There’s a distinct possibility that we could be terrible in the secondary, absolutely terrible.
I like that the new staff has made a point to go after guys who have their stuff in order. I just don’t know how picky we can be at corner. You’re basically putting every egg you’ve ever had into the Joyner basket in 2010. What happens if we don’t get him? Do we start running the 46? I think we’re in dire straits here and we have to do something about it.
I posted this earlier about Joyner
Anybody hear about Joyner (2010) class having UF as his leader and us at #2 apparently he is worried about our defensive coaching situation, that should add more fuel to the discussion we have been having the last few weeks. Joyner is a MUST GET!!!
thats what soflafootball says but
Then again we’re 14 months away from his final decision
My concern with Joyner is that he’s shorter than even Tony Carter, at 5’8.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
I think Miami and UF have offered him though
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
No way UF only offers the top 1% of the top 1%
Plus there is no way he would qualify. Look at John Brown and Torrey Davis who all the sudden were able to qualify after signing with UF.
and tim tebow went from a sub 900 SAT to a 3.7 GPA and academic all-sec
what a fine institution
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
Byrd is 5'10 and plays taller
I saw some film on him and he looks pretty big. I don’t think height is a big concern.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
still hes going to have a hard time with taller guys.
He might have the speed to keep up but its like spud webb vs Aceam. I cant complain because we need CB not SS move them over to CB.
Im not going to say thats bad
The guy from USF sold me on being able to play as a short CB. I dont care if we get a short on I would rather have a short CB than a 6’1 SS convert to CB. I just think he might have a hard time covering someone 6’5 or taller.
I saw this on another site but it could be a great question for next week or we can talk about it now
Rank from 1-5 or 10 if you can go that far the biggest misses in recruiting in the last 5 years. I want to put a caviat though. I dont want the 10 best players we missed but the players that hurt us the most because of th eimpact they could have had specially in positions of need. I will add my 5 or 10 after lunch.
I only went back till 2006 and I found more than enough
1. Percy Harvin – Grew up a Nole fan (Kiss of Death). Rumors are that him and Myron Rolle did not get along from their high school days and when Myron decided to come here Harvin started to look elsewhere. Unfortunately he went to the worst possible location for us. He has shown that when healthy he is the best player in the nation. He has a different gear that we have missed in the last few years. Although our WR corp is strong now we sure could have used a playmaker like Harvin in the last 3 years.
2. CJ Spiller – Another Nole fan growing up (wears #28 in honor of Warrick Dunn). His explosiveness is unparallel. We did get Antone but up until this year he had been banged up and Spiller would have stepped in and contributed immediately. Supposedly he was a silent the whole tiem and even had the coaches over for a BBQ which we all thought had sealed the deal. Wonder why in the world he went to Clem$on??
3. Michael McNeil – Although he is not a househould name he hurt us tremendously. Another rumored silent commit in a position of need (safety). He ahs played consistenly at Auburn and we sure could have used him. (Roger Williams flashbacks in my head :/ )
4. Marvin Austin – Nole Fan, Silent commit (see a trend here). Again huge position of need (DT) . it seemed as if our coaching staff put all the eggs in one basket with Austin and failed. Although he has not shown superstar level at UNC I believe that if he would have come here Odell and Stroud would have put him in shape and he would be a monster.
5. TJ Bryant – Lincoln superstar you assume = FSU. Wrong. Pete Carroll came into our backyard and stole the best recruit to come out of Lincoln since Cromartie. This has become a position of need because we missed on Bryant who could have contributed and early. From all accounts it sound s as he is performing well at USC with limited PT since they have 100 first rounders on defense.
6. Noel Devine – FSU fan wooohooo!! Deion Sanders adopts him so he is going to FSU for sure. Not so fast. In fact, it is rumored that Deion steered him away from FSU. He has been great at WVU (1200+ yards this season) and after we missed on Spiller I thought we were fine becasue we were going to get Devine.
7. Arelious Benn – FSU fan growing up. We got Zooked. He is a playmaker and has shown that at Illinois, of course the exposure at FSU would have been incredible i wonder if he regrets it after the one good season Illinois had.
8. Janoris Jenkins – Did you watch the UF game. Then you know about him. Again another kid from the Muck that loved FSU but got no love. He has shown that he can step in as a freshman and be a shut down corner. It seems as we finally learned our lesson and are going to start going hard after Muck kids. A lot of playmakers there in 2009 and 2010.
9. Jeffrey Demps – First Jimbo mistake. Apparently he said he would only be a trackstar. If we would have shown him a little love he would have come here in a second. we have the best rack program in the country and all we had to say was that he would play football. He has that Spiller, Harvin speed.
10. Lakeland boys – Pounceys, Rainey, Brown and Black. Pounceys dont hurt as bad as we have a solid Oline for the future. Rainey is a superstar in the making and Black has been solid in a position of need. All reports were that we were gettting all of them but they decided to go to Hogtown instead.
Honorable Mentions: Brice Butler, Patrick Johnson (patterson), Brandon Thompson, Enrique Davis (twice), Major Wright (not sure if he was ever really interested in us), Damon McDaniel.
by ChileanNole on Dec 10, 2008 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
Great article!
I’m curious why you think offering Jarvis Byrd is a sign that Jimbo makes the decisions on who we offer though?
I think that the old staff would have definitely offered him by now, and
he is a break from the pattern we’ve been in for the last 5 years of trying to find guys who are freak athletes who aren’t really corners. Mickey seems to be looking for the next Cromartie and couldn’t see all the Terrell Buckley/ Tay Cody types right in front of his face.
by Bud Elliott on Dec 10, 2008 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
Tay Cody's one of my all-time favorite Noles.
We’re naming our first son Taylor.
My wife wouldn’t go for Coronta.
I'm thinking about going with "Tron"
Okay, back at 5 eastern. Have to go take an exam.
by Bud Elliott on Dec 10, 2008 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Just FYI, Gano should win the Groza tomorrow night. It’s supposed to be shown on ESPNU (if their web site is correct). Gano has the best made % than any of the finalists and all of the finalists have missed one extra point. Also he was hurt starting the season, which makes his accomplishment even more impressive. I don’t see how he couldn’t win it.
Why didn’t we use Garvin on punt returns? I’m guessing that’s what is keeping him from being named overall best returner.
He's probably not very sure-handed
You don’t want someone returning punts who can’t catch well. On kickoffs it’s not that big of a deal, as it just hurts the return, but on punts you might turn it over.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
In ncaa 08 Bert Reed was an amazing returner
He won the heisman in 2010 thanks to 10+ KO+PR touchdowns. Plus he was my go-to receiver. Owned the post and curl route.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
Xavier Lee was was a beat of a runner
Set the FSU single season rushing record.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
beast
His TD-INT ratio was brutal though
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
Brown was beat out by the TCU guy
Who had more sacks but… I’m pretty sure Everette played better competition…
Jon Bostic
What are our chances? He seems like a great guy – his dad played in the NFL and got hurt, but had a good education to fall back on. He taught his son well, and Jon is interested in academics first, football second.
Would be a huge get… who is his leader, Miami?
I have heard UF. He came up here so I guess we have a chance.
But we are set at LB and already got Mizell who if it wasnt for the off-the-field issues would be a high 4 start probably 5 stars.
true, but you never know with LBs
Kendall Smith could have a monster year and go pro. Nigel might only be around for 2 more. Carr might not stay eligible.
Plus, if we do go to a 3-4, we’d need more MLBs.
And he’d give our ST a boost.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
Kevin Steele used to get at least two 4 star linebackers a year.
Chuck Amato is no Kevin Steele.
Man… if Kevin Steele coached Jayron Hosley it’d be the greatest defense of all time (kidding of course).
I agree with you
But with the scholarship crunch Idont know if we would take 2 LBs this year. I love Bostic and I would be happy if we did I just dont know if we will.
If there is such a scholarship crunch why bring in 4 strong safeties?
Especially when you have another WR who can play the position.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
He'd probably be a good safety...
but I’d make the analogy that you’d be taking food from one starving person and giving it to another starving person.
We're in troube unless
Dionte Allen steps up.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
Jenije and Mangum
Jenije is actually a pretty quick and fast guy. I think he’s close to the speed and quickness of say Tony Carter and maybe an inch or two taller. However, not sure if he has the hips of TC. Jenije showed promise this year in the time he was in. He wasn’t beat very much and he played in every game.
Mangum has good mechanics but just doesn’t have the talent to start for a team like FSU. If we have to count on him as a start we’ll be in trouble and will have to get a good pass rush all year. he won’t have the speed to cover 4 or more seconds.
Best case scenario: Patrick Robinson returns. Dionte Allen stays injury free over the next year so he can develop into the kind of CB we expected. If those happen those two will be your starters. Parks, Jenije, and Mangum will provide depth. Parks has a lot of upside too. I don’t know if the Alexander experiment at CB will work but we’ll see in the Spring how he holds up…
Worst Case Scenario: Robinson leaves. Allen still doesn’t develop likes he needs to and keeps battling injuries. Parks may get moved to safety. If Robinson leaves and Allen stays injured Parks will stay where he is though but having Parks, Mangum, and Jenije as our CB’s will hurt and they will get beat. Furthermore depth will be provided by Alexander (who is undersized, will be a RS FR, and has never played CB before) and by Freshmen.
This was a really good post by the way
Much appreciated.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
But at least we have other CBs
Mangum, Parks, Alexander, Allen
Not exactly the best group of all time, but they have some experience. Nothing like that with the safeties. I’d really rather not start a freshman in the secondary with our scheme. Unless we go to zone heavy next year and it’s a corner playing the flat.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
What other top 100 type recruits do we have a shot at?
Smith, Bostic… is that it?
And I’d love for us to offer the Tallahassee DT who has offers from other top programs but not us.
I knew I was forgetting some
Charles sounds outstanding and seems like a great guy. but I feel like we’re on the outside with him.
Tell me Starling can play rover… please?
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
FS I thought. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong
I never got the impression we are in it for Charles but a lot of people bring him up and say we have a legit chance….we’ll see.
There was a good article about him recently
That basically said he was wide open.
But Andre Debose also said he was wide open and I don’t think anyone believes that to be true.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
Did they redo the whole rankings? I'll have to give that a look
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
Just saw the rankings they are a joke
All of Bama recruits move up.
They make a bunch of uncomitted recruits 5 stars (for businnes reasons)
All of FSU reruits move down (except Rodney Smith)
No pryor or McAllister in top 100.
Meh, I really stopped caring when they said Jermaine Thomas was only a 3-star because they did not watch his nationally televised game.
Yeah, it's a business.
But at least not all of USC’s commits were given 5 stars.
If they keep hyping Morgan Moses, eventually I won’t care what his IQ is.
Well
Some friends of mine are former Garnet and Gold Girls Guides. They like to talk about the top recruiting classes they used to bring in. I imagine it increases morale among the support staff to have a top number to point to.
Wow, I had no idea it's "guides" now.
Just googled, and I still don’t see a single girl who would waste their time talking to me. Well, maybe one or two. Or the guy in the back. And the whole time I would really just want him to go away. Quickly.
I'm sorry if this offends anybody...
but my nickname for the friends of mine who used to do that is “Bait.”
I have doubts about Smith and Bostic.
Charles… eh, maybe.
I think Starling is a must sign. I think we could be in danger of losing Lincoln. Plus, with Starling and Harley suddenly our safety spot looks pretty good for several years.
I didnt think we realy needed Bostic
We are deep at LB and I dont think we would need to move him. I thought we need to go after DT and CB thats about it.
Now that I think about it, we're only losing ~ 12 guys to graduation + draft
Plus probably ~4 more for other reasons, so it’s not like we can bring in 30 guys.
We’re at 18, our tops is probably somewhere around 22
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
I was counting Thornton in there as well.
I consider him a maybe.
We’ve still got shots at 1 or 2 others… gotta think we could pull at least 1.
I dont think top 100 type are the guys we need to go get
I think we should go after guys that can stay on the field, good enough to play but good enough in school to stay.FSUncensored talked about 6-8 guys and none of them are even here anymore. We need guys that can keep us in for a year or 2 tell jimbo can get the coaches in and we can work on getttng the top recruits
But with our fantastic record with 5 stars in the past few years, they are guaranteed stars
/sarcasm
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
Just to remind myself... (rivals rankings)
2004: Lee
2005: Smith, Bright, Rouse
2006: Rolle, Warren
2007: none
2008: Bradham, White
So far nobody on that list has even become All-ACC, I’m pretty sure.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
That "Might have been" song plays in my head when people mention Fred Rouse.
I actually joined a Facebook group at the time “In 4 years I want my favorite NFL team to lose all its games so it can pick Fred Rouse first.”
Shoulda been you, Detroit Lions.
Here's my wishlist
As it stands right now, and lasting for at least the next 3 hours.
DE- All we’ve got is Jenkins right now. Vernon would make me happy, Stinson coming back would be ok too.
DT- Would like to have one more of those 4 stars.
S-Jawanza Starling
CB- At least one who we can count on to be around 5th on the depth chart this year and get serious time next year
Ath- One more guy who could possibility play multiple positions
Here is my list
DE – Vernon or keep Stinson.
DT – Thornton
S- Starling
CB- Byrd or Hosley pleasee
Any – One more from Charles or Debose (pipedream)
Who's this Hosley kid? Tell me more.
Are we pretty much in agreement on what we still need, though? At least as far as positions.
If Debose came to school here… crazyness. Not gonna happen, but still.
I dont know much about Hosley
You should ask this other poster who is obsessed with him.
Agree on Debose not happening.
The positions of need we agree also I dont know how somebody could argue about that.
I thought we were good on Off as a hole for about 2 years really.
On Def we need at least 1 big DT, Some real CB and thats about it. at least I thought.
I told you this would be good for about 3 hours.
I forgot that adding a DE would basically be replacing the loss of Stinson.
So, assuming we take 23 (just a number I’ve got in my head).
Plus, StateofMind’s DB class got me thinking.
DE- Vernon or someone else
DT- Thornton or someone else
S- Jawanza Starling
CB- Byrd and Hosley
Ath- Multiple position-type guy
For those that live in Tallahassee or surrounding areas
do you guys go and watch any of the local kids at all? Being up in Ohio i have to resort to youtube and espn videos. high school football is big up here in ohio but there are not a lot of the big name type recruits that would make it worthwhile to go see anything. just curious what its like down there in terms of high school football? growing up in Boston, it was evident that people there could give a rats a** about high school football.
I usually see some of the NFC kids.
Or local kids when they play against NFC.
Marcus Sims, Ochuko Jenije, Melvin Ray, etc.
I saw Rouse play at Lincoln.
Saw Willie Ferrell this year.
I only go see Rutherford, Mosly, Bay high games.
Im a rutherford alum from 95-98 so I try to go to there games when Im home but thats been a while.
"Mullen's the Man"
Headline on MSU Rivals page.
If they lost both coordinators I would be happy.
They’d replace them with someone just as good, but I’d still be happy for a few weeks.
Too bad nobody has ever been burned by a coach who took a job before the NC
Or else UF might be in trouble.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
Can one of the mods
Delete the evals from the comment section since they are already in the article it makes me have to scroll trhough all that to read the comments.
For the record...
In case FSUncensored gets mad when he comes back, I didn’t delete anything that had discussion going.
Ponder and Thacker
Christian Ponder
Position Rank: QB #59 (Grade: 84)
ESPN considered him a sleeper. They said he had great escapability and a good arm to make all the throws. They were enamored with what he could do on the run. He keeps his eyes downfield, makes good throws on the run, and can tuck the ball and run if necessary. "He may not be as polished as others in this class…." That too is pretty accurate, although, he is developing. His mechanics are average to poor at times, and this can cause better defenders to read him very well.
What happened? Well his synopsis coming out of high school was dead on. Christian had a ‘nice’ year. It wasn’t great, it wasn’t terrible. His strength was his ability to move and make good short throws. He throws to the flats as well as anyone, and does a great job of finding his open receiver even when he is moving. FSUncensored pointed out, accurately, that he does a good job of throwing, regardless of which side he runs to. He has this uncanny ability to square his shoulder and make the throw before getting hit. His weaknesses are his ability to read defenses. He is extremely intelligent….off the field. He can’t process a ton of information on. He progresses to slowly through his reads, often didn’t see linebackers dropping into coverage, and has a hard time checking to different levels of the field. I thought Jimbo did a very good job of allowing Ponder to play to his strengths this year, however, maybe too cautiously at times. I also thought he used Ponder well as a running back in option and zone read plays. He certainly reads defensive ends well on these.
Doug “Budd” Thacker
He came out of h.s as a OG #42 from Seminole (I did get to watch him play in h.s, and he was dominant in Seminole County….Seminole County doesn’t have the greatest athletes). They were unsure of where to put him, but I will give some of the general ideas they had on Thacker. "Penetrating DT." "Can be out of control and miss tackles" "Strong lower body" "Plays with a great motor."
When ESPN’s scouting report is that he "is a fun player to watch" it made me cringe. I am not a Budd Thacker fan. He plays soft (he plays high), the offense gets their hands on him first, and he is routinely blocked out of plays. He can penetrate occasionally relying on his strength alone. He is a strong kid and play with a tremendous amount of energy. He is a leader on the field and off. As one of the regulars on this site points out (not sure who) he is great at "pumping up the crowd." I think Thacker is a good defensive tackle to add depth, but not a starter at this level.
I would like to know if anyone realy likes ponder
I love the kid. I think most of his mistakes is because hes young. He cant let thing go eazy but when he has conf. hes almost unstopable. I think most of his problems this year were because the WF game. I realy think when the Off line gets to the point where he can sit in the pocket for more than 3 sec and not get hit he will make people happy. Im not saying hes the best but I think he did the best job and was the right choise for the job, and yes Jimbo is a master at playing to our Str.
I do like Ponder a lot!
I think there is still a bunch of undeveloped potential in him. I don’t think hes going to be Tim Tebow, but I do think he is the best quarterback we have had since Weinke and he has potential to be a lot better than he is. I love the fact the he is a true dual threat (hes not a tyrod who isn’t much of a throwing threat)
i dont think Thacker's offseason yoga workout regimen
did much help. maybe he was doing it pick up chicks, because it certainly didnt show on the field this year. maybe he needs to get a new mat
I think your wrong.
Yoga funny as it sounds helps you find a center gravity. I think that showed on our run blocking.
what side of the ball are you talking about?
and it was a joke partially, but partially not because he really didnt produce much this year
On your feet!
I’ve heard many of our opponents’ fans say that Budd Thacker is a fun player to watch.
Watching the game, I was actually somehow able to stomach it until...
…the point when Alabama was stuffed on the kickoff return following UF’s game-clinching TD, and Gary said, “What are you doing? Don’t you know you’re supposed to go down after Tim Tebow calls you out?” The contents of my stomach emptied onto the carpet, and my baby was sitting there, and she’s covered in vomit, screaming and writhing and crawling around in it, and my wife comes into the room yelling and cursing and turns off the TV and says it’s my fault. Man crushes hurt everybody.
my players
For Preston Parker: (here is his eval on ESPN)
“Parker has adequate size for the wide receiver position. He has very good foot quickness and he has above average speed. He has a good surge off the line of scrimmage and he shows that he can be a vertical threat to the defense. He runs good routes and he finds the open areas in the coverage. He shows that he can accelerate to get separation from a defender. He has very good hands and he can make the catch with his arms extended and he has great focus and concentration on the ball when it is thrown. He can make the difficult catch and he will catch the ball in a crowd. He has good leaping ability and he adjusts well to the ball in the air. He has decent elusiveness with the ball after the catch but he lacks the elite speed that would set him apart.”
They have him listed as a Safety though. ESPN didn’t seem to think he had good potential as he was ranked as the #95 safety. They completely missed the boat on him. As for one area of improvement, I would say it would probably be his speed. It says he lacks elite speed. Well, three years later and he still lacks elite speed. I also think Parker has exceeded his potential, as no one had him rated real highly. He was our best player in 2007 and we look for big things out of him next year if he stays. I would say ESPN completely missed the boat on this one.
For D’Vontrey Richardson: (here is his eval on ESPN)
“Richardson is a player that has the athletic tools to play defense and will probably end up as a safety in college, but given the right school, he does have some intriguing qualities as a slightly undersized, athletic quarterback that can make plays on the run. He has a strong arm and can make all the necessary throws. He is very dangerous working out of the shotgun both as a runner and passer. He is excellent on roll outs, he can throw rolling to his right or left and he will stretch defenses with his ability to scramble. He does a nice job of putting the ball into comfortable spots for his receivers. He can hit them on the move, his scrambling skills allow them to finish their routes and he does a pretty good job of reading the field and finding his secondary receivers and you like his overall patience. He is a good ball handler, he does a nice job on play fakes and he really puts a lot of pressure on defenses. He is effective on the short to intermediate throws, he is especially good at dumping the ball over linebackers and under defensive backs and you really like his overall touch. This guy is very tough and when he gets a head of steam going, he can deliver a blow and will fight for extra yards.”
This says that he is extremely athletic, which we all know, and that he will probably wind up on the defensive side of the ball in college. This scouting report said didn’t talk about any weaknesses, just waxed poetic about athletic ability. We now know his one weakness however. He hasn’t picked up the offense yet (I think) but he still has his athleticism. He will probably quit football and play baseball in the spring. I can’t blame him when you look at the dollar bills being waved in his face.
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
Nice job FSUSOM
Parker is a good example of the rare unheralded gem we’ve not found enough of of late.
We should have known how good he was
when he signed. Miami people were so angry.
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
Thing is
That your eval is different than Rivals. He was the number 2 WR in FL coming out of HS (behind Greg Matthews) so he was expected to be a playmaker. Maybe not as big as he has been but a playmaker nonetheless.
new name on DB board (sleeper)
Philip Thomas, S from Miami Edison. He is the brother of Clevan Thomas.
This past year was his first playing football and he had 8 picks.
FSU coaches visited his high school and asked for tape on him. This guy from SoFlo football says he is ours if we offer. He could also play corner.
Here are some links:
http://www.soflafootball.com/fan-forum/topic.php?id=224
http://www.miami-hurricanes.com/forum/tm.asp?m=515328&p=4&tmode=1&smode=1
Also, I like the news on Byrd. Jayron Hosley hopefully is next (please please please). I don’t care about the article on Joyner. It’s a FSU-UM battle with us leading. I expect him to end up in Tally.
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
Looks promising.
I’m gonna hold off on linking it in the main section in case Uncensored has any issues with it.
DB class
if by some miracle we get these guys. We have a reasonable shot of doing this. (note: not taking into account schollie limits)
CB: Jarvis Byrd
CB: Jayron Hosley
CB/S: Philip Thomas
CB/S: JaJuan Harley
S: Jawanza Starling
S: Justin Bright
S: Gerald Demps
S/WR: Willie Downs
I will be SO happy.
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
Maybe somebody can tell me something about Bright.
But it feels like we’re only taking him to get to his teammates.
I KNEW I had forgotten somebody LOL.
That’s what I think about Bright too.
Brandon Willis, Corey Miller, Marcus Lattimore. It might help.
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
Me too
I thought about Lattimore, but we’ll need a DE more than a RB next year.
We have plenty of young RBs, but not so much with DEs.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
Can we at least greyshirt him?
I mean… I don’t know much about the Thomas kid, but I want every other DB on StateofMind’s list.
That’s 21 commits with only 2 or 3 more to give out.
Upon further review.
21 commits + Thornton/Other DT + Vernon/Other DE = right about where I expect us to be.
And fills all the needs we brought up earlier.
Byrnes for me
1. Willis
2. Willis
3. Lattimore
4. Corey Miller
Willis could take the first four.
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
So I think it's fair to say
that everybody is willing to take a pass on Bright this year to have a shot at Willis next year.
eh
I would, but you can’t just take a nobody to get a player.
Barry Every over at Rivals is an idiot, but he said the words “Kyler Hall” in his eval.
He seems to have some talent though, and safety is a need position.
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
Kyler Hall must have owned suggestive pictures of Mickey Andrews.
It’s the only thing that let me sleep at night from 2002-2005.
Safety wouldn’t be much of a need if we added Starling and the 2 CBs (letting Demps and Harley stay where they are).
CB might be a need depending on who might play corner.
We can focus on Joyner in 2010.
Of course, this is all dependent of offering Jayron Hosley.
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
I think your class...
while I personally feel is a long shot (given our circumstances), would be great for us.
2009 would be a down year, but beginning in 2010 we’d have serious depth at safety.
We’d have players at corner, but I doubt there’s enough there to scare away Joyner.
I agree it is an extreme long shot
just wondering what would happen if all the chips fell into place,
I don’t think Hosley will get an offer and I didn’t even list Bernard Brinson.
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
Out of all our current young (Fr and So) corners
I only like Parks (and maybe Allen if he can stay injury free) a lot.
I feel Parks will be a beast wherever he plays.
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
Kyler Hall was pretty good his senior year
Better than some of the safety play we’ve seen after him.
I think Bright might surprise us… I know stars don’t mean all that much, but he wouldn’t be the first 3 star to become a pretty good player. The first white safety perhaps, but that’s a different discussion.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
I put him in there just to look at potential scenarios.
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
Suddenly we have endless possibilities at WR and DB.
Which is why I doubt it will happen.
With our luck our best case scenario is we’ll get Starling and Byrd, Hosley doesn’t ever get offered or won’t make the grades, and this Thomas kid will be the next Deion… but will commit to NC State.
I think Thomas, Starling, and Byrd come.
Don’t think Hosley gets an offer. I hope like heck I’m wrong though.
He’s my #1 realistic DB target right now.
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
Look for Justin Bright to move on when Mickey moves on. He’s his main recruiter, the only coach that has any interest in him
Also, the coaches have talked to Gerald Demps at Corner, which would only reinforce Downs, Harley, Starling at safety
Does Demps have that kind of speed?
I’d be extremely happy with that safety class.
But again, we’d have to sell hard for Joyner in 2010.
What is so great about Joyner
He looks like another small corner to me, in the Tony Carter mold.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
watch his tapes
FSUncensored put best when he said “extreme explosiveness”
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
Meh...
He’s a meh prospect. Don’t really think he’d ever perform well enough to justify being one of the 85 players on Jimbo’s FSU team.
If you assume that we need him to strengthen our bond with Byrnes, I don’t think that’s it would affect it much anyway. Byrnes has seen how FSU will treat their players: Dawkins was given playing time as a freshman and opportunities at multiple positions.
Additionally, who knows if Bright is even close to Lattimore or that DL prospect? I wasn’t cool with every single player on my HS team…then again I wasn’t given scholarship offers hahah
Clemson will quickly retake Byrnes I think.
Bright is best friends with Lattimore and Lattimore lived with Bright for a time.
ncensored
what do you think about our DB class? I have a soft spot for DBs (as you can probably already tell.)
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
If Mickey is still coaching them,
I honestly don’t think it matters who we get. Sorry for the fatalistic view here. I guess I think we will turn two of them into corners— someone there is bound to be able to play.
We’ll consistently see them align incorrectly, fail to jump routes because the coaches cobble together poor scouting reports due to laziness and not putting in enough hours, and being technology averse, etc.
what if Mickey isn't coaching them?
Do you feel the talent is in the class? or potentially in the class?
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
I dont think so not at CB
we have to get a DC/DB coach that now has to teach these SS how to be college CB not SS
Safetys normally play safety for a reason.
You’ve found a rare player who can play both.
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
thats what Im saying
I was under the Idea all the DB we got so far this year were true SS and not CB. I havent seen us going after a CB tell next year.
Right now we have:
CB/S: JaJuan Harley
S: Justin Bright
S: Gerald Demps
CN Xavier Rhoded
Let’s just say that I would trade who we have for who we do not have. Still, these guys aren’t terrible and I like Halrey & Demps. Not sure I like to take Bright since Clemson should quickly reclaim their dominance over Byrnes HS
I think either Parks or Allen will turn out to be very very good.
I do.
If we get a good DB coach, either Kirby Smart if he DC’s here, or someone that another DC would bring in, I think we have sufficient talent to compete with what we have/will have back there.
I’ve already berated the point, but look at what Texas has done this year with Freshmen or RS-Freshmen in their 3 deep at both safety positions! Three of them weren’t world beaters coming out of HS, judging by their offers. (However there is the caveat that most teams don’t bother recruiting or offering kids Texas wants that have reciprocal feelings, its a waste).
They don’t really use a ‘rover’ insofar as FSU Mickey has defined that position here (most teams don’t). So both their safeties can cover, exhibit great technique as freshmen, aren’t out of position, basically every problem that we’ve seen the last couple of years.
And they’re playing behemoths on offense, us…not so much.
Already on the team:
AJ Alexander (CB)
Dionte Allen (CB)
Ed Imeokpara (CB/S)
Ochuko Jenije (CB)
Korey Mangum (CB)
Patrick Robinson (CB)
Jamie Robinson(FS)
Nick Moody (LB/SS)
Terrance Parks (CB/S)
And what would be coming in
Willie Downs (SS/FS)
Jujuan Harley (FS)
Gerald Demps (CB/SS)
Xavier Rhodes (CB/S)
Assuming Jarvis Byrd (CB)
Maybe Mywan Jackson or Jaron Hosely (CB)
And Hopefully Jawanza Starling (SS/FS)
Thats a lot of raw, untapped, misused, or misjudged talent. I think it’s unfair to judge anyone on the team thus far by production, practice reports, lack of playing time, because of how egregiously Mickey has declined as a DC schematically and more specifically as a teacher of technique.
So if you look at the list instead as a pile of unmolded dough that hasn’t been hardened in the oven thus far, there’s potential for good things.
Downs, Harley, Starling, Demps, Robinson would compare, at least superficially, with anything Texas threw out there this year.
With Robinson locking down one side (assuming, of course, he stays in school and doesn’t fail out) You’ve got 4 or 5 players competing for the other side. I think Allen will be very good (he was noted, in HS, as having phenomenal technique) and it’s not for nothing that everyone and their mother went after Parks
Yeah, a prospect of which the staff has now taken a cursory look
Reminds people of a less paraded Mcgee. An offensive player that projects on D and would need a year to learn technique.
Dunno how serious our interest is though, maybe just an excuse to poke our heads in Tampa more with our renewed want of Giddens and Charles.
Does he play at Armwood?
I always thought he projected with the ball in his hands. Did he decommit from Auburn?
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
Seemed as if Parks fell off the radar after his knee injuries.
Every SEC team went after Parks too.
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
Either tore both ACLs or just one twice
Which is why he was a three star in rivals, but every staff knew of these injuries and every program in the south east still offered him
He is my favorite young corner.
Or is he a safety today?
I never sleep cuz sleep is the cousin of death.
Dunno, he legitimately could play both...if he can tackle
But I’d like to see him at Corner. With proper coaching, I’m actually excited about the prospect of Parks and Allen at the corners
He's Still a Corner
Though he was cross-training at Safety in recent weeks with the injury to McClure. I expect him to stay at CB as long as we shore up safety. We redshirted a few players who can compete at rover (Jaime Robinson will start at FS and lets hope he learns to tackle better and take better angles). I expect the redshirted players (Moody and Imeokparia) and incoming freshmen to compete for a starting spot at Rover/SS and for playing time behind the safety spots. Parks has the talent to lock down a starting spot at CB. Like I mentioned in a thread earlier, if Robinson comes back and Allen stays healthy, Parks will be the third of a respectable group there. However, all of that could fall through.
Barrow
you’re a good poster. Glad to see you on here more often.
What are your thoughts on Allen? I have no feel for him as he always seems to be injured. Are the injuries the type that would cause someone to lose a step or are they just freak stuff.
by Bud Elliott on Dec 11, 2008 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
On Allen
He has the talent to lock down a starting job. he came in with good fundamentals already set too. In the little that I’ve seen him he hasn’t done anything that stood out as bad BUT you have to figure that he’s been on campus for two years now, and didn’t see ANY playing time (NONE) until mid-way through the seson. From what I hear, he has all the tools but has no experience at this point because of his injuries (missed both seasons AND the Spring). He’s no more experienced now than a freshman is. Parks at this point has more experience than he does since Parks has played an entire Spring AND a season. Allen just needs time to learn and experience. And he needs to stay healthy. IF he can stay healthy I expect him to be a major contributor next year, and, if he favorably develops, he could be a solid player and starter.
1 more thing
That I like about Allen is that he is a true corner too. He’s not a convert of another position or a hybrid. So thats good.
And as far as his injuries I think he’ll end up ok, its just that as soon as he’s over 1 he gets another. I don’t think they’ll hinder him down the road.
Thanks for props. I really enjoy this site as it is not what I akin to “Disney World” on some other sites. Some only want to give the sugar-coated news or not even bother having a negative opnion but I understand why they do it. I like that you’re able to give insight that delves more into what makes a team tick rather than just comparing rushing or passing stats.
This is another reason why I'd like us to get on with it.
Not sucking is reason 1.
Keeping Fisher is reason 2.
2007 Rodney Hudson
1.) Scouts graded him as a 77 who plays bigger on film than his measurables indicate. “Uses his hands well and gets good placement” combined with “good feet.” Feet that they felt would be able to mirror rushers in pashing situations. Noted as being able to get “up to the second level and get a piece of moving targets.” Uses his “hand well to punch and displays the ability to adjust.” I think the biggest compliment listed in this eval is that he is listed as a “good prospect becuase you could envision him plugging into different spots along the line.” His versatility will go a long way in his career both at the college and pro level.
2. Works hard to stay with blocks but they note that he needs to improve his pad level. They also mention that he might struggle in “getting back and dealing with edge rushers at the college level.”
3. I think we can all agree that Hudson has gone above and beyond our expecatations thus far. He anchors the youngest offensive line in the country. He has consistently been our best offensive linemen week in and week out. His focus can’t be questioned as he was not flagged once for a penalty all of last year. That’s pretty freakin impressive. Dominates both during practice and during games. Some of his awards after last season: a Freshman All-America first team selection by College Football News and the Football Writers Association of America…named a Freshman All-America Honorable Mention by the Sporting News…earned All-ACC second team honors by the Atlantic Coast Sports Writers Association and All-ACC third team honors by Phil Steele…named to the All-ACC Freshman team by the Sporting News…named to the Miami Herald All-State team…in his final eight games of the season he graded out either first or second among the Seminoles’
We will be able to add to that list following this season as well, but my access to sites has limited my ability to get the full list. I add that i didnt know that he was originally committed to West Virginia. news to me….
you know what all this tells me
We might not be in as bad of a spot as I first thought. We could have a very strong Off coming back and our Def could be young but realy dep. on our recruiting could be a lot better than we all think.
when I was at Rutherford in PC
we had a oline coach that was awasom. I think he got a HC job in Bama. I wish I know where because I would love to tall him how Im doing. he was also the biggest nole fan and one of the reasoms I became one
coach McCorry
don t know his first name but I could find out. He was one of the guys that got us to the final 4 from 95-98
Im tryinhg to look it up but having no luck Ill have to go look at the football pic.
that was the year will wetherspoon played it always sucks playing behind someone like him.
Fisher To Auburn Again
They are saying on the Auburn Scout board that Fisher is a done deal to Auburn and has been since the UGA game and it has made Alabama radio. Anybody know anything about this?
I think its BS
As I have said before Jimbo will make more money at FSU and better chances to go to a ACCCG/NC and winning than the SECCG/NG at alburn
Ok... I'm bored.
Who is the one recruit in this class that would change the future for FSU more than any other?
Doesn’t necessarily have to be one we get, or one we could get. Would Randle take the program to the next level? Barkley? Who is it?
I think Dre Kirkpatrick could have been a program-changer.
Kirkpatrick I think
Though not one would change it around, need more.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
What's the deal with him
Bama lock? Who else has a shot? Don’t tell me UF.
If I were FSU I’d consider promising him a start from day 1… though we wouldn’t do that and he still probably wouldn’t accept.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
Nobody else.
Bama only. These guys play dirty, it’s sick.
by Bud Elliott on Dec 10, 2008 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
Gilbert. I'd trade EJ for him in an instant. Best QB prospect I've seen in years.
by Bud Elliott on Dec 10, 2008 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
I'd encourage every member to take some time and watch his video on Youtube.
Texas got a good one.
He impresses me far more than Barkley.
...Runnin' to the beat of the marchin' chiefs band
On a saturday night, we’ll strut our stuff…
To show the nation the noles are tough,
So bring on miami, michigan state…
Clemson carolina and the other 8
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed, none. Also, I think Debose could go Miami or LSU, not UF.
by Bud Elliott on Dec 10, 2008 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
How did we lose him??
Who was our primary recruiter with him? Rivals doesn’t show any.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
E.J. question
I know he has potential to be a great one, but ive also seen the flaws in his mechanics. Does anyone know how he is progressing? I have heard a little about him, but not a whole lot.
What do you think is wrong with his mechanics?
I’m not a QB coach. I can tell when something looks funny, and sometimes there is an obvious flaw (low elbow angle, or long release), but I’m not great at pinpointing some of the other stuff.
by Bud Elliott on Dec 10, 2008 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
I remember from the Under Armour game last year
His throws didn’t look very good. I can’t remember what it was, it just looked very high schoolish and not very polished at all.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 10, 2008 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
Apparently in the national championship game in '05,
a professional scout loudly said that Vince Young threw “like he was flinging god [feces] off his hand.”
by Bud Elliott on Dec 10, 2008 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
He has an over exaggerated release. Proper form dictates that the elbow should be even with the ear, his is a little higher.
It’s not a long release, per se, but its just not perfect. He throws an incredible deep ball and has enough zip on the ball without obvious effort to throw intermediately with consistency.
This is actually one of my gripes with Ponder; his release is too shot-putty . Instead of relying on the natural sling effect from using your hips, he instead relies on his arm and shoulder. Most likely because he naturally dips his shoulder. This isn’t easily corrected because he has done it for so long, most likely his entire career, and will undoubtedly revert back to it during any stressful situation.
Because he’s throwing the ball so much with his arm, there isn’t any measure of consistency in the velocity and placement. With proper form, you pretty much know where it’s going to go because the form dictates the ball. But when you’re using strength instead, its too variable.
D’vo also has a bit of an over exaggerated motion like EJ. But his is actually the closest I’ve seen to perfect form from all of our QBs since 2001. Maybe Xavier.
I've noticed the shot put as well. Some QB's are effective with this,
and despite its look, you can definitely win with this in a college QB.
by Bud Elliott on Dec 11, 2008 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
Watch the throw at 1:32
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MlZ0A_jKP4
I know that invoking Xavier Lee is a bugaboo, but everything about that pass wasn’t replicated by Ponder this year. The throwing in rhythm and the timing. The velocity and trust in his arm to get it there, the placement of the ball, outside hip.
Granted, our pass protection was better last year. But It, despite a few plays in which our center was just mauled, wasn’t bad the BC game.
Ponder’s greatest attribute is his intelligence. The speed at which he understood the breadth of Fisher’s complex scheme which places so much pressure on the QB at the LOS is testament. However, I believe it’s also the greatest hurdle he has to overcome. Because he’s so intelligent, he overthink everything. This disables him from just trusting that the throw will be on time and well thrown, that the receiver will be there, that the tackles will push the outside ends past the play (so i don’t have to peddle backwards or out). Because trust implies that the truster assumes . And I don’t think Ponder’s critical analysis persona allows him to assume. Consistently, he comes back to the huddle, back to Fisher, and Fisher yells at him for the same thing . Assumption. “The plays are there” is captured on my DVR said by Fisher like 50 times. Ponder’s response is always the same, excasperation. He knows that they are there, but he becomes so razzled from a million stimuli and thoughts going through his head every second that they become lost. He sees the game, but has no feel . Feel’s what you need. You don’t consciously feel on a football field. You subconsciously do it. Allowing you to retain composure.
I’m of the camp that believes that composure is inherent in a player. That it can’t be taught, but it can be enhanced if you have it. Composure is derived from the calmness that is created when one feels and assumes. The pressure is alleviated. As the Joker says, (im watching the dark knight right now) "I’m not a schemer, I just do . Good quarterbacks just do . Similarly, Pocket presence and intermediate routes are things derived from composure. They require a degree of assumption and rhythm.
Also, Bama wasn't good on Offense that year
But that game is a true tribute to your thoughts Bud, on how Mickey’s D stimulated the spread movement. Bama’s pro style attack was completely blunted by our D.
Mickey Andrews and the other "9" DC's (Andrews, Stoops, and in some respects, Carl Torbush)... inspired the modern college offense
But while Meyer and Rodriguez would eventually become confidants, Meyer’s most direct inspiration for his ground game came from Kansas State, where coach Bill Snyder had made a direct-snap running back out of quarterback Michael Bishop and contended for the 1998 national title. “I went out to visit Kansas State and saw what they were doing with the quarterback, and I came away from there amazed,” says Meyer. “That stuff really impacted me.”
Snyder’s innovation was a matter of survival on his own practice field. He had hired a group of hungry, aggressive defensive coaches at K-State who would later become head coaches, including Bob Stoops (Oklahoma), Mike Stoops (Arizona) and Jim Leavitt (South Florida). They developed a sellout, eight-in-the-box defense that was as difficult to run against all week as it was on Saturday. “We had to get better against our own defense, and the answer was pretty simple,” says Snyder, who retired in 2005. “We had to involve the quarterback in the running game. We ran the same plays, but we gave ourselves the option of running them with the quarterback as the ballcarrier.”
Also
Consequently, this is why I think Ponder is so succesful when he runs the ball. It allows him to “switch off” and rely on instincts.
His instincts are good. It’s just translating them to the passing game and switching off the critical analysis so they’re shown through, thats the problem.
Hurting his arm prolly didn’t help either. Just another thing to…ahem…Ponder. (wah wah)
Essentially
Your base plays are your dropback passing and your base runs. They will work against any honest defense, no matter what, usually. They don’t work against cheat defenses.
Traps/ draws/ screens/ bubbles/ bootlegs/ play-action/ are “keep-em honest” plays. They prevent and sometimes punish the defense from cheating.
Jimbo is clearly a numbers offensive coordinator. He puts numerical stress on the defense. The teams who beat us this year were able to beat out base plays while they played honest defense, indicating to me that out offensive personnel wasn’t quite ready to beat some defenses, and that Jimbo must improve on his base stuff. Now, we run the CONSTRAINT stuff really well, and once we get better at the base stuff, we’ll be pretty hard to stop, Ponder Mr. accuracy or not.
Further
Tebow is dumb as a box of rocks. He seriously got like an 840 on his SAT. That clip of him where he repeats “as hard this season, this season, this season” wasn’t implemented as a clever lyrical device. It’s just cuz he’s dumb and didn’t have enough of a vernacular to phrase it any other way.
But he is incredibly composed on the football field. Their design of the offense and his confidence in it allows him to trust and assume that the plays are there .
He's composed for several reasons
He is very tough to bring down. His OLine realizes they never face big blitzes and do a great job handling what they see. He has receivers to burn college DB’s all the time. His offense is based almost entirely off misdirection, slowing the pursuit of potential rushers. The design of the offense (as you mentioned).
I hate Saban. He is so good.
Look at that play! The corner plays it well! The problem? Xavier Lee has a lightning quick release and literally an elite NFL! arm, not just an elite college arm. Saban plays the %‘s to the max, as everyone should do. Unfortunately, a QB with truly world class physical skills can kill your % based defense. If Colt McCoy throws that ball lee throws… it is a pick-6. Very few college QB’s can throw that ball consistently. Now, consistently is the key there. The throw encompasses the quickness of the release as well. Long release and great velocity won’t get that ball there. Many QB’s can throw that, but their delivery would take way too long and it would be picked as well.
Trust/ assumption
My assessment varies a bit. I think our protection was so brutal early on in the season (and horrible from practice reports), that Ponder never was able to trust the protection, even though it did get better as the season wore on. Ponder didn’t realize that it got better because he was so used to running away from the pressure that he was under early on.
I think the feel comes from repeated similar endings— in this case, he would need to get good protection in practice for a week or so in order to trust it. I think that the green jersey in practice would allow him to stand in, and if he didn’t feel pressure, he’d develop the habit, feel, whatever you choose to call it.
People who do a task here over and over again will attest to this. For me, this task is taking notes in class.
As a first year law student, I wrote down everything. Everything the professor said seemed important. This was incredibly inefficient. As I got into my 2nd semester, however, I realized that was unnecessary. I was able to realize what was truly important. Now, I am able to pick up what is truly important.
I guess I am saying that Ponder was scarred early by his picks against Wake and by some embarrassingly poor protection. No doubt CP7’s legs saved us from a bunch of sacks— in our last game Drew was sacked 3 times in 14 pass plays, an insane rate.
Fisher must have the defense go at half-speed in practice to remedy this. Mickey is notoriously annoying to go against in practice because he blitzes all the time! Let CP7 develop some confidence!
Another problem: Mickey doesn’t have any legitimate zone schemes, and consequently, our scout team does a horrible job simulating this stuff— specifically cover-3 CB-SS-CB.
For his sake
Let’s hope that you can indeed teach composure and the trust and assumption that follows it. I just don’t see it. I don’t think it was a residual pavlovian reflex to getting abused earlier in the season.
I think it’s the source of that mythical it factor that people go on about. There are two examples that would refute my composure as inherent argument. One, would be if all rookie or early starters were rattled. The other, is your argument. That it can be absent and then gained.
The composure’ists would then contend that the QB had to have the composure to begin with. I’m not convinced that we have any evidence that Ponder did. At the first sight of confrontation, the first time it would be beneficial for the QB to rely on trust and assumption, he wasn’t able to release himself of over thinking it. It literally is the first thing Fisher says to him every time he yells at him on the bench. The plays are there. Slow down and find them.
Spring game.... 8 months ago....
We think we might have NO offensive line and we’re trying to see what our quarterbacks can do. Mickey blitzes 8 every play. Combine the terrible blocking with the green jerseys and the quarterbacks never had a chance. The whistle was blown almost immediately because there was at least 1 defender’s arm within 5 feet of the QB.
I despised him greatly on that day. Congratulations, Mickey. You dominated the spring game. You severely limited our ability to learn about our team and win games, but you dominated the spring game. How soon can we get him to retire?
B the W, is it the Kendra injury that turned the spring game from an enjoyable time for the fans into the most boring 2 hours ever in Doak Campbell Stadium?
What if, when learning to ride a bike, your dad fastened training wheels on your bike
and they fell off (because your dad is poor with a socket-wrench). You get hurt. He puts them back on, and this time they last longer, and then one falls off. You get hurt more. You’re not a fan of riding that bike!
Then, without putting the training wheels back on, he instead just puts you on and gives you a big push start! You go flying down the street! You pedal some! It doesn’t actually propel the bike, but you think it is, but the bike is really going on the momentum of the great push. You get further than you’ve ever gone, all the way down the street, but you do crash. It hurts, you have some confidence, but were you really riding? Did you learn how to ride a bike? No! The training wheels still don’t work, and you don’t actually trust them. The big push from dad is the Miami game!. Ponder’s running was the push.
At this point, the push method would work. Now, you’d still crash and bust yourself, but you could get really far, and getting far (winning games) is what mattered at this point. It worked for a while, but you still never learned to trust the training wheels (still haven’t been put back on)! You’re only concerned about getting down the street (winning games)!
The problem comes when one day, your friends have learned to ride the bike. You race them, have your dad push you, and your friends ride their bikes. You start off okay, but eventually, you lose because you can’t ride the push (Ponder’s running) forever!
And such is the Christian Ponder had horrible protection early and never learned to trust his offensive line or his reads as his dad never put the training wheels back on and was more concerned with getting him (and his team) down the street story.
Fair
But what if he never learns to trust the wheels. What if he is irrevocably and incurably traumatized from them collapsing. The result would be the same if he never had the trust to begin with. Instead of assuming the wheels would stay on the bike because thats what their supposed to do and that’s what you’ve been told they would do (the important bit) you’re just so hung up on whether they would fall off. It forces you to question everything that would follow the very first transfer of momentum and weight when you get on the bike. If you’re bright enough, and Ponder is, your brain and thought process compounds all these potential negatives into one giant clusterf*ck.
Eventually, Dad can do everything he can do to assure you that the wheels are fixed. He can tell you they are fixed 22 periods a day 4 days a week. He can tell you their fixed while your riding it. You’re so shaken by the potential for them to break, that it actually impedes you from riding the bike correctly when they’re working! You slow it down, you turn it slow, you close your eyes.
The onus ultimately is on you. Dad can proximately nudge you in the right direction all day, but if its not inside you to just say F*ck it, and assume that the wheels aren’t falling off, you can’t ride your bike. You can’t play QB.
The things Ponder struggled in that we caught glimpses of during the Miami game cemented during the regular season. We faced a variety of defenses and had varying degrees of success in coverage and receivers getting opened. But he never made any throw that Xavier made in that game. That any successful QB makes in rhythm. He was always thinking too hard. People always come at me with the “But if and when his receivers are in the right places he’ll start making those rhythm throws!” I disagree. First of all, to assume that 10 WRs are all too dense to learn the playbook is pretty farfetched. If that were the case, the plays would never be there. Secondly, even if they are in the right places, it would still require Ponder to suspend his critique and just pass the ball. I don’t know if he can.
Okay, but don't you have to ultimately try the training wheels without any kind of push?
I am saying… get back to the base. Let him develop confidence in his line. Start it in spring. Work it with EJ as well.
You could be 100% right, but I want to see first. Middle of the season trying to win games, isn’t the best time to do it.
My point was we never got back to the slight push + training wheels + pedal yourself. We were fall off then full push.
Sure, but only trust that it will emerge as far as the spring.
I wrote this on the TC in debating whether EJ will be given a legit swing this spring, it sorta fits,
"I was seduced by Ponder like everyone else after the Miami game. He was a playmaker. But then, as the season went on, his problems became chronic . They haven’t lessoned, only cemented. He’s an incredibly smart kid, a model student, and a good quarterback. But he hasn’t shown the capacity to take that next step that, along with some other things, will enable us to move from 8-4 to 12-1.
I think an entire season is sufficient. We should make judgments after 12 games. Otherwise, we risk the problem of falling into a 3 bad year, 1 good year (maybe) trap waiting and waiting and waiting for the player to turn the page.
We’re not Wake Forest. We don’t need to abide by that philosophy. We have the capacity and ability to recruit game changers to our program. We just have to find them, recognize them, and finally put them in a position to succeed early enough.
Ponder isn’t a game changer . He’s a good player. EJ, could potentially be a game changer. Xavier, he hadn’t succumbed to his debilitating addiction to FSUs party scene, was a game changer.
As begrudging as it is, no other program has done this as well as UF the last three years. Meyer and his staff is second to none in recognizing those game changers and putting them in the line up ahead of “good players” .
There’s no room to feel bad for those “good players” if they get benched for a “game changer”. In football, one must abide by the Utilitarian ethos. Whatever is good for the team , despite if it harms or hurts the feeling of an individual .
The days of kids not being college ready from High school are clearly over. The days of even the special players waiting their respective turn are done. It is a prevalent theme amongst the successful teams all around the country that they all have underclassmen performing big time in previously thought of “experience based positions”.
No where is this more clearly illustrated then the biggest of these prior “experience based positions”, Quarterback. Tebow, Stafford, Mccoy, Bradford. They all were starting or receiving lots of playing time in their freshman or RS Freshman years and putting up BIG TIME NUMBERS, not 6 TD-13 INT in their third year in the program ."
They all had the composure, the feel, that I’m trying to elicit. And it was prevalent the day they stepped on campus.
My fear is that my suspicions regarding Christian are correct. But, also, that they mirror Drew Weatherford in their herpes like reseliency. THey aren’t shown during the spring, when the green contact jersey is on and he knows he’s not going to be hit. They only emerge their ugly heads when the pressure is on and the buck is pressed. When Christian doesn’t have the luxury of knowing that a wrong decision wont cost him anything. I don’t think he has the necessary short memory mentality. Marino would throw a pick, cathartically release all his frustration on whichever player was unlucky enough to be within earshot, and come back out like nothing ever happened and assume that he was the greatest thing on the field.
Chris Leak was a good player
Tebow is a game changer. Even in Chris’ senior year, Meyer found ways to get him on the field.
Wondy Pierre Louis is a good player. Janoris Jenkins is a game changer. Result: Louis is benched within 3 games and they take the chance on Jenkins. And he shines playing the game
Do you honestly think we could win 8 games next year? I see us taking a step back.
Unrelated, but you brought up the leap to 12-1.
I'm going to start the season, assuming we have a new DC
with complete trust that he can turn our underachieving players around. Coach Muschamp did, with freshmen dbs, that’s my standard.
I’ve got my percentage of winning the Clemson game higher than yours, and you had us at 7 right?
Excellent conversation, guys.
Googling “residual pavlovian reflex.” Oh yeah, Pavlov’s dogs. I get it.
Of course I knew that, I was just seeing if you knew that.
Well I see us going 6-6 to 10-2
I think our Def will stay the same. Our Off will improve. I want to look at the games this year we lost. UF is better and will be next year hands down. GT. We score one more on them and we win. WF I think they will take a step back next year bigger than us, and we can score next year on them. I think the only team we beat this year that will give us problems next year is NCST. I think we can do better next year and if we get someone other than MA as the DC we might be ok.
But remember GT...
Was killing us until their QB rolled his ankle. Everyone forgets this somehow. They dominated us. I think they score 50+ if he doesn’t get hurt. We can’t assume he gets hurt next year.
by Bud Elliott on Dec 11, 2008 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Don't they return 19 starters?
If that’s the case (or something close) than the road to the ACC Championship goes through Atlanta.
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Dec 11, 2008 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
I think it's 17 or 16
But they get Coastal foes VT and UNC at home. Do travel to Miami.
by Bud Elliott on Dec 11, 2008 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know about that
GT played 12 teams this year who hadn’t faced the triple option, or at least not at the D-1 level.
Maybe of their OOC teams did, now that I think about.
By anyway, my next year teams will be used to it and will have learned from last year, and the defensive players will have learned that the 3O is no joke – they’ll be prepped to stop it.
Like us for instance, no way we go back to our DT lineup and putting our OLB waaay outside.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 11, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not saying it doesn't work
But will it work as well as it did this year, in the ACC?
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 11, 2008 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, I believe so.
I think these coaches have plenty of film on this now. Ga Southern, Navy, now GTech.
If you took out the word “GTech”, you have the ridiculous “this won’t work in the SEC” type stuff that people said about Florida. I FULLY expect us to get out coached again next year by one of the best coaches in America.
You beat it by having much better players, and I am doubtful that we can do that next year. Or, you beat it by being lucky when they fumble.
As long as the defenders know what they are doing
And the defensive line makes a few plays you can stop that offense.
However, our DL did nothing and nobody knew what they were doing, that’s why we got beat.
GT scored 10 points on Gardner Webb. I know it was their 3rd QB, but still.. 10 points? I’m willing to bet Gardner Webb had their kids covering the right guys, and that’s why they were so successful. If they can do it, we can do it.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 11, 2008 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
GWebb
I believe they also held out several other players against GWebb.
I was amazed by this so i did some research… Nobody stopped them when Nesbitt was healthy. The yards per play numbers were consistent. The only time they lost was really on a fumble, or QB injury.
I disagree with the protection aspect to a certain degree. How many times did the ball come out on time? I think Ponder’s had a couple of games with those throws that come out before the WRs had turned around. The three step drops are the most maddening to me. You can only really have 2 reads. Either throw the ball to the WR, throw it away, or run forward. To often he just stands there or drops back further. That is not the Oline’s fault that’s Ponders.
I would agree with the overthinking aspect of it but I do believe that’s changeable. Think about walking. When you are a child it is tough to walk because you have to think how to balance yourself. You do it enough and you just do it. Ponder is still thinking too much about how to do it and not just doing it (he may never overcome that but he deserves the chance to).
It was pretty obvious that the players did not have the plays down pat throughout this year. The WRs are still working on how to run routes correctly. Not knowing how your WR is going to run that slant makes it tough to throw it. Basically he has to do like Marino did. Throw the ball where it’s supposed to be. If the WR doesn’t catch it ream him out like he just stole from you. You’re always right because your the QB!!!
good post CaStauch
def agree that Ponder’s greatest strength is also his biggest hurdle to overcome. What sucks about Xavier is that he was such a knucklehead. how is that FSU has had two Mr. Football’s from the state of Florida this decade and we have done absolutely nothing with them. Coaching? Lack of Discipline?
Im no qb coach either
But ive heard people say he dosent have good mechanics, and the times i have seen him throw something just didnt look right. Like you said not all great college qbs have perfect mechanics, but ive heard Jimbo is trying to straighten them out. I think its something with his release point it looks way too high or something.
Ive heard
that he is a firm commit. You really never know though until signing day comes around, something or someone could change their mind.
I tend to think both are extreme longshots
They aren’t seriously mentioned by anyone I trust for recruiting purposes (though I don’t have great recruiting contacts).
Also, welcome to TomahawkNation, pcnole!
The kid from Tampa (Ryne Giddens) is a DE who is increasingly mentioned.
Ryne Giddens to USF
That is the rumor that I have been hearing. Why would you go to USF when almost every team in America wants you is beyond me.
That guy is awesome.
I love it when coaches are insane.
Wait… let me rephrase that….
I love it when coaches are insane but they are good at what they do.
I do not love it when they are senile and bad at what they do.
For the record...
If a generic Wednesday Recruiting Thread can get 300 posts… Signing day is going to be off the hook.
Cant wait for signing day
Although it wont be as hectic as the with the old staff (when we were waiting for 10-15 kids to decide) is still a fun time. I decided to take the day off from work because I dont acomplish anything that day anyway. Might as well be home with a beer and ready to hit F9 a million times that day.
Hopefully it's better than last year...
We had three guys who some people were still holding out hope for commit elsewhere in the span of 20 minutes.
Julio, TJ, and one other big time recruit… it was a tough lunch break.
Jamie Harper too
Yea it was tough. I hope Jawanza doesnt disappoint us this year.
by ChileanNole on Dec 11, 2008 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
Apparently T.Bowden promised him the first carry of the first game
Against Bama and he fumbled. The fumble may have happened on the second play I am not sure. I thought it was funny.
by ChileanNole on Dec 11, 2008 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Oh yea Jawanza is keeping it tight (no homo)
Most Lincoln kids do is so hard to really know with them. I am afraid that with the recent failure of superstar players from Lincoln to FSU we may have run out of lock there.
by ChileanNole on Dec 11, 2008 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
And before somebody points out Little,Gheres and Holloway
I was referring to superstars from lincoln:
Bryant – went to USC
Paul – Left the team
Rouse – Smoking trees somewhere
Hope it doesn become a trend.
by ChileanNole on Dec 11, 2008 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
Well yea that is a huge factor
But also he plays a position of need and he is an elite prospect. HAs anybody heard anything on him it was supposed to be a battle with UGA all the way.
by ChileanNole on Dec 11, 2008 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
I dont get
Why giddens would want to got to usf. I hope he comes here, unless it is a grades issue or something.
George Selvie is why a defensive end would go to USF.
Well, at least 1 reason. It’s an improving program.
Why? Why can't it rise up like FSU?
They have almost an ideal location where they can get the Tampa and the Miami kids. FSU and UM are down, and UF is recruiting more national kids. I think USF can turn into a pretty good program.
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 11, 2008 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
Lack of an on campus stadium and a true campus feel are two important factors.
It’s also very much a pro town.
Why would that matter though
If I’m a big time recruit I might find the city to be a nicer place to play ball than some quiet campus tucked away.
And being in a pro town doesn’t stop Miami, BC, USC, GT, etc
by tdchrisdavis on Dec 11, 2008 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
Could be
How about lack of exposure from being in the Big East? In my mind, there are 2 schools located in big cities that do well— USC and Miami.
Fair point.
USF is combatting lack of exposure...
By playing a lot of games on Thursdays and Fridays and some on Sundays.
You forgot Ohio State
Columbus is bigger than both Cleveland and Cincy, but I’ll leave it up to you to decide whether it is a “big” city.
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Dec 13, 2008 12:46 AM EST up reply actions
Being located in Tampa has 1 hidden perk...
They’ve had incredible luck get hardship waivers passed for transfers. Florida kids can choose schools out of state to get away and if they don’t like it can use the excuse of being closer to home because a family member is sick or something.
USF has gotten a ton of guys through the process like this in football AND basketball. Their transfer success is remarkable.
I know that won’t make them elite, but it’s a hidden little helper they’ve successfully used to their benefit recently.
344 comments?
This site has grown a whole lot since I started reading.
One, if not the best, FSU site on the interwebz.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Scout is reporting Thornton to USF
Doesn’t look like our interest from last year remained this year.
I’d still hope to get one more of those 4-star DT’s left out there.
Not this player particularly given the scholarship crunch.
But I’d really like to bring in 1 more DT for depth purposes.
Call it “striking while the iron is hot.”
USF remains a commuter school
They have considerably more dorm rooms now than in the past but their campus (life) is essentially in the dark ages compared to Tally. The football team will get some of the locals and players that the big three don’t want and some will be turn out to be studs and the rest duds. FSU is basically shut out of Armwood and nearby (45 minutes) Lakeland High. We should be all over Tampa Plant as they are stealing players from other high schools (check out their TE/DE) and putting together another great team.
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