Florida State's No-Huddle Tuesday
by Bud Elliott on Dec 16, 2008 6:00 AM EST
in FSU Football
59 comments
With my last final a few days away, I had time to think about the next story idea. I want to thank everyone for doing a great job over the past few days. The roster of quality contributors continues to grow.
The idea that football ideas come and go in cycles is certainly true. Defensive modern trends in college football is one of my primary interests in writing about the college game (the others being exploiting the unique college rules and the battle for recruits). Still, I think we have experienced a fundamental change in college offense that will never again disappear: utilizing all 11 offensive players. This week I'll share my thoughts on how FSU can attempt to design the modern offense; an offense which arguably was designed to beat the defenses of Mickey Andrews and Bob Stoops. Expect that to come Thursday.
No-Huddle Notes
- Andrew Carter has a great Q&A that everyone should read. I've pulled this quote because I continue to believe that Chuck Amato is a horrible coach and he continues to be a waste of space for the Florida State program: "...Anyway, seems like there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen, and sometimes that means you wind up with a messed up dinner. The only two titles that matter belong to Bowden and Fisher and, yes, it has hindered Fisher's ability to control the program given that Andrews and Amato both have the words 'head coach' in their titles. The reality is that this won't be Fisher's program until Bowden retires." I'll add that every year changes aren't made is another year that Florida crushes FSU, both on the field, and off- in recruiting. Firing Chuck Amato is a crucial step, but it is just a step.
- Chantrant has an early look at bowl opponent t Wisconsin.
- CBS News has one of the coolest videos I've ever seen. This will remind you that football isn't everything. Pete Carol fighting gang violence, at 1AM, during football season. Giving his cell phone number to members of the Cripps gang in the Watts housing project. Safe for work as well.
- The Seminoles are 9-1 and have a basketball game tonight against Tennessee Tech. TrueCubbie should have the preview and gamethread later today. While I think our Tourney chances are virtually Nil, if we can win every remaining nonconference game except Pitt, we'd be 13-2 in the Non-conference. I think we can win 5 conference games, but maybe if some other teams suffer massive injuries, the Noles could grab 7 conference wins and get the 20 overall win plateau.
- I updated the Leonard Hamilton offense watch (chart at right). We are 299th in turnovers, as Leonard's scheme continues to not compliment our players, fails to spring guys for open looks, and still doesn't value the basketball. 299th.
- A disturbing quote from an NFL scout, which seems to echo my thoughts that the Bowden coaching tree is pretty poor and is overly dependent on athletic ability without adding much to them: "If you look at the Bobby Bowden, Mark Richt, Chuck Amato family tree, there is no discipline whatsoever. And if the players don't have natural strength, they are not strong. There is no substance to their strength programs. With the type of talent they have at Georgia and Florida State, they ought to be in the hunt for national championships every year. I don't know why Richt is not fending for his job."
- Patrick Robinson has filed his paperwork for a draft evaluation. He is a first day pick this year and will need to seriously consider whether he will get better under the tutelage of Mickey Andrews in 2009.
- Does anyone feel that our basketball or football teams are well coached overall? (I say overall because Edenfield and Jimbo Fisher can obviously coach).
0 recs |
59 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
that will hurt
if P Robinson goes we will be in tough shape on the corner position. i havent looked at our recruites on DB. with the acception of saftys.( very good recruits on saftys)
Is the basketball game on TV??
I only got to watch the second half of the last game because I didnt even know that CSS was carrying the game…
I am interested
to hear your take on FSU and modern offense. We definitly need to learn how to put up more points if we want to compete with the Florida and OU’s of the nation. I still have yet had a good idea on how to design a defense to STOP the spread. Certainly you have to have a great secondary, but how do you make sure that everyone is accounted for in a way that doens’t open up giant weaknesses. It’s a tough one and am glad I am not in charge of figuring it out.
Ole Miss caught UF on a bad day. I dont know that they effectively stopped the spread.
I really think the 3-4 can beat the spread
Her is how I came to this. You have 3 big strong DT then 2 MLB that are big and strong then the OLB are more like SS they are smaller but faster. then 2CB and 2 S. This is how it works. there are dif sceams I think a basic zone would work the best but You can also go in man.
In zone you would have the DT rush the mid. The OLB have the flats and contament. The MLB take the mid at the hashes The CB drop back w/ one S the other S comes up to cove the Mid.
in Man you still have the DT rush. The CB take the Out side guys. The Olb would take the Slot guys with the SS coming up to help. If there is no slot then OLB take the TE. The MLB take the FB/RB/Blitz/ what not.
Yes there is a 3 man rush but you can blitz -1-4 on any given play. I would never send more than 2. I also think you can disguise your coverage way to eazly. Im not a coach nore do I know anything other than what I remember from High School. Where we ran a 5-2 which worked just like this. I think the 3-4 could stop GT option and the Spread. I also think its good agenst the power teams like Wis or OSU that use power running over the spread.
I am a fan of the Power 6 Invert defense.
Just seeing how many get the reference.
I went through a phase last year where I read as many old-school strategy books as I could.
I am the king of the Power 6 Invert defense and the 1-2-2 Jug Offense in basketball (in the 25 and under classification).
3-4 can work
And thats why the spread will never fully work on the NFL (at least not how it is used by Florida) The problem is that in order to have an effective 3-4 scheme you need a 300+ beast up the middle clogging running lanes and putting pressure on the QB and there arent many of those in college.
I disagree
The Spread does work in the NFL on a limited basis and that it is not run more has nothing to do with the 3-4 in my eyes. It is all about the quality of defensive players relative to offensive players and the huge increase in practice time that NFL teams get. They can come up with much more complicated stuff to stop it.
The spread works but not like in college. It is not the same spread
The patriots run a spread offense but it is not very similar to what Urban runs. Agree with the quality of players and time devoted to stop it, but at the same time you would have figured that somebody in college would have a way to stop it. I just dont see how anybody will.
Hmm
I don’t know what you mean by “stopped”.
- The spread is run throughout the NFL; the spread option like UF uses is not.
- This idea that you can just shut down the spread is silly and poorly thought out. Were other great offenses simply shut down? NO. Poor spread teams are being shut down with regularity, and great teams who run the spread are not. It is primarily a function of them having good players and smart coaching. In the 90’s, did people shut down the great offenses? NO, but they did shut down the bad offenses or the average offenses. Now, that said…
- FSU has the unique problem of having an ancient defensive staff with no fresh ideas and thus they struggle with anything other than what this defense is specifically designed to stop (2-back I form).
- Teams with the talent of OU and UF would score no matter the offense they run.
I would make the same distinction regarding the term "spread" offense.
Oklahoma and UF both run a “spread,” but they are vastly different offenses.
I think Oklahoma’s style of spread can be stopped without much of a fundamental change to defensive principles. I believe the 4 and 5 wide spread passing attacks can be stopped in ways very similar to the old ways people used to stop the Run n Shoot. Solid coverage with 3 CBs and 2 Safeties, own the middle of the field with 2 LBs, keep help over the top as much as possible, and rush the crap out of the passer with your front four.
UF’s offense is an change in strategy that requires a marked adjustment in the way most old school defense is played. In Gainesville you have seen both the QBs and the WRs morph into running backs. I think the only way to “stop” their version of the spread attack is for an evolution in defensive players. I think you need lineman that rush like ends but clog up running lanes like tackles. I think you need linebackers with size who tackle like linebackers but run like safeties. I think you need corners with speed and awareness to lock down their man on passing routes, but with tackling ability to stop runs to the outside.
We can’t simply act like UF has tried out a new offense and that’s the sole reason for their success. UF has upgraded the talent at virtually every position and changed the role each player plays on the field. To consistently “stop” them you are going to have to see some serious athletes on the defensive side of the ball. We will need an infusion of size, speed, and awareness on that side of the ball. I don’t think we will be able to stop them until we can consistently man up on them and match them athlete for athlete.
Everybody runs the spread offense. The only thing the Pats do is run it from the shotgun giving their QB a better read of the field. The number of 3-wide sets has stayed pretty constant throughout the years on a league-wide basis.
The reason the Pats offense is so good is not scheme, but Moss, Welker, and Brady (Cassell to a smaller degree now). It’s interesting that it’s one of the few offenses that doesn’t really depend on lineplay because Brady (or Cassell) can beat you on the quick slant to Welker or the bomb to Moss, which forces teams to not blitz. A vast majority of the passes in the Pats system are down the middle of the field (specifically attacking the LBs with the short stuff).
You can stop the passing game by being physical with the WRs but it’s tough to do that since the WRs are usually much bigger than the DBs across from them.
Haha
No worries, Des. It was a half sarcastic answer anyway.
The Power 6 was a defense from the 70s that I actually think would do well against Georgia Tech, but requires too much coaching to only be used for that 1 week. It began to have limitations when teams started to go to a more passing style.
I hope
That p rob dosent leave. Imo it would hurt our secondary big time next year. He is would be the only returning corner that i have any kind of confidence in. Btw you say he wont get any better under Andrews in 09, have you heard anything to make you think that Andrews isnt going to retire?
B the W Tennessee Tech sucks...
but there’s no way I’d take this Florida State team as an 18.5 point favorite over anybody.
Thats why I am all over Tenntech.
FSU is the 3rd worst team in the ACC and has no shot at the tournament. None. Literally. Hamilton is not a good coach. We turn the ball over on one of every 4 trips down the floor, yet everyone wants to ignore this! Ugh, just frustrated. We’re not improving and we will get ripped by Pitt and miss not only the NCAA but also the NIT as people proclaim Hamilton as “needing another year.”
What happened to FSU? Why did we all of a sudden become fine with mediocrity and relentless wasting of talent since 2001?
I agree with
What you said matt, we need to get better athletes on the defensive side of the ball if we even want to slow down UF. I dont think anybody can stop UF, especially this year but it is possible to slw them down.
JoePa getting 3 year extension??
This is ridiculous. Joepa turns 82 next week. Is he really going to coach til he’s 85??
http://pennstate.scout.com/2/821972.html
Ugh, FSU better not let Bobby try to out last him.
by FtLauderdaleNole on Dec 16, 2008 4:16 PM EST reply actions
I think Joe Paterno died 2 and a half years ago and what we currently see is a sophisticated animatronic puppet.
It has glitches in wet weather and has therefore been confined to the press box during the winter for the past few seasons.
Someone should hire those people that analyze OBL tapes to figure out if it’s the real JoePa.
Good stuff.
Though a “sophisticated” model really should have better plumbing.
This is the most unbelievable thing I’ve ever read. There is no way we can afford to keep up with this guy. I can’t think about this tonight. Does anyone have any actual pitchforks and torches for when FSU responds to this?
Who was the last coach to die on the job? Seriously?
Not from a disease that forced them retire and then took them down the line, but actually dying while under contract and not on a leave of absence.
That was an extremely sad story B the W.
I’m not trying to be heartless. Just some gallows humor from a depressed Seminole I guess.
i was just gonna post that.. almost verbatum
except that ESPN said it just came in seconds…literally seconds ago.
Notic the difference in time stamps…
Thats ridiculous
Joe Pa cant coach 3 more years. Imo Joe Pa cares more about the win record than Bobby does.
He died
Of a heart attack. It was real unexpected too.
Thoughts.
I have one issue with the NFL scout. Does he think Georgia should fire Mark Richt? Georgia is usually in contention (until they play Florida).
Also, can Stroud get our strength program turned around? I know Jost was terrible, and I’m hoping Stroud can get it turned around.
Leonard Hamilton = Ron Zook
Patrick Robinson please stay.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
It's an anonymous scout, so I can't really ask him today.
I think the scout is just noticing that the Bowden coaching tree seems to rely on recruiting much too heavily, to its detriment. I think we’ve made some of these same observations.
Leonard Hamilton = Ron Zook
except we sucked before Ham got here and he has at least made us competitive (by recruiting not coaching) where Zook made the UF program worse… i can’t think of a good college analogy right now but this 1 kind of works:
Leonard Hamilton = Tony Dungy with the Bucs
except whoever comes in won’t be leading us to a championship…either way i got your point
by nolesblogger on Dec 16, 2008 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
I meant recruiting and coaching ability as the comparison.
Both are similar in those areas, IMO.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Full list
FIRST TEAM
Offense
Quarterback — Sam Bradford, sophomore, 6-foot-4, 215 pounds, Oklahoma.
Running backs — Shonn Greene, junior, 5-11, 235, Iowa; Javon Ringer, senior, 5-9, 202, Michigan State.
Wide receiver — Michael Crabtree, sophomore, 6-3, 214, Texas Tech; Dez Bryant, sopho-more, 6-2, 210, Oklahoma State.
Tackles — Andre Smith, jun-ior, 6-5, 330, Alabama; Michael Oher, senior, 6-5, 318, Mississippi.
Guards — Duke Robinson, senior, 6-5, 330, Oklahoma; Her-man Johnson, senior, 6-5, 350, LSU.
Center — Antoine Caldwell, senior, 6-3, 305, Alabama.
Tight end — Chase Coffman, senior, 6-6, 245, Missouri.
All-purpose player — Jeremy Maclin, sophomore, 6-1, 200, Mis-souri.
Kicker — Louie Sakoda, sen-ior, 5-9, 178, Utah.
Defense
Ends — Aaron Maybin, sophomore, 6-4, 236, Penn State; Brian Orakpo, senior, 6-4, 260, Texas.
Tackles — Terrence Cody, junior, 6-5, 365, Alabama; Peria Jerry, senior, 6-2, 290, Mississippi.
Linebackers — James Lauri-naitis, senior, 6-3, 240, Ohio State; Rey Maualuga, senior, 6-2, 260, Southern California; Brandon Spikes, junior, 6-3, 243, Florida.
Cornerbacks — Alphonso Smith, senior, 5-9, 190, Wake Forest; Malcolm Jenkins, senior, 6-1, 201, Ohio State.
Safeties — Taylor Mays, jun-ior, 6-3, 230, Southern California; Eric Berry, sophomore, 5-11, 195, Tennessee.
Punter — Kevin Huber, senior, 6-1, 220, Cincinnati.
———
SECOND TEAM
Offense
Quarterback — Colt McCoy, junior, Texas.
Running backs — Knowshon Moreno, sophomore, Georgia; Donald Brown, junior, Connecti-cut.
Wide receivers — Austin Col-lie, junior, BYU; Jarrett Dillard, senior, Rice.
Tackles — Eugene Monroe, senior, Virginia; Andy Levitre, senior, Oregon State.
Guards —Brandon Carter, junior, Texas Tech; Trevor Can-field, senior, Cincinnati.
Center — A.Q. Shipley, senior, Penn State.
Tight end — Jermaine Gresham, junior, Oklahoma.
All-purpose player — Percy Harvin, junior, Florida.
Kicker — Graham Gano, sen-ior, Florida State.
Defense
Ends — Everette Brown, jun-ior, Florida State; Jerry Hughes, junior, TCU.
Tackles — Gerald McCoy, sophomore, Oklahoma; Mitch King, senior, Iowa.
Linebackers — Scott McKil-lop, senior, Pittsburgh; Brian Cushing, senior, Southern Cali-fornia; Aaron Curry, senior, Wake Forest.
Cornerback — Victor "Macho" Harris, senior, Virginia Tech; D.J. Moore, junior, Vanderbilt.
Safeties — Rashad Johnson, senior, Alabama; Trimane God-dard, senior, North Carolina.
Punter — T.J. Conley, senior, Idaho.
———
THIRD TEAM
Offense
Quarterback — Tim Tebow, junior, Florida.
Running backs — Kendall Hunter, sophomore, Oklahoma State; Jacquizz Rodgers, fresh-man, Oregon State.
Wide receivers — Kenny Britt, junior, Rutgers; Jordan Shipley, senior, Texas.
Tackles — Jason Smith, sen-ior, Baylor; Phil Loadholt, senior, Oklahoma.
Guards — Louis Vasquez, senior, Texas Tech; Rich Ohrn-berger, senior, Penn State.
Center — Alex Mack, senior, California.
Tight end — Rob Gronkowski, sophomore, Arizona.
All-purpose player — Derrick Williams, senior, Penn State.
Kicker — Kai Forbath, sophomore, UCLA.
Defense
Ends — Nick Reed, senior, Oregon; George Selvie, junior, South Florida.
Tackles — Fili Moala, senior, Southern California; B.J. Raji, senior, Boston College.
Linebackers — Mark Herzlich, junior, Boston College; Sean Witherspoon, junior, Missouri; Michael Tauiliili, senior, Duke (tie); Rolando McClain, sopho-more, Alabama (tie).
Cornerback — Vontae Davis, junior, Illinois; Mike Mickens, senior, Cincinnati.
Safeties — Myron Rolle, jun-ior, Florida State; Nic Harris, senior, Oklahoma.
Punter — Pat McAfee, senior, West Virginia.
The usual omissions due to lack of media coverage, but not horrible overall.
The lack of ACC defenders is ergegious.
by Bud Elliott on Dec 16, 2008 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
It's a crime.
Maybe they see the missed (blocked) extra point from the Florida game? It’s obvious these voters aren’t slaving over game tape to make their picks.
He got the Groza. Would you rather be first-team AA or win a national award and get the ceremony and speech that go with it? So proud of Graham Gano.
Soooooooooooo..........
………back to the whole JoPa thing. Doesn’t anyone else find this disturbing? I’m surprised there’s not a whole blog devoted to this. I was clinging to the hope that the Rose Bowl might be JoPa’s last game. It’s beyond me that the FSU admin and boosters really think FSU can still win a BCS title status quo.
5 years in a row? Getting beat 45-15 in our house? Second straight time they have beaten us at home en route to the BCS championship? When is this crap going to end? Force Bobby to resign and let Jimbo clean house on the defensive staff. Anything less is doing permanent damage.
Count me as one of the disturbed.
I posted above, not sure what else to add. If FSU responds to this, which would essentially mean losing Fisher, and the $5 million that goes with him, I cannot begin to describe the emotions I would feel. There would have to be demonstrations. There would have to be (proverbial) blood in the streets. The Board of Trustees would have to be held accountable, and there would have to be an organized uprising, undermining, tapes, blackmail, extortion (is anyone here studying law?), whatever it would take to bring these guys down. My heart is pounding as I type this. It’s as if Florida State has already responded, and I’m ready to react to it.
I wonder what the chances are that both will actually be LIVING in 2012.
Seriously. Not to be morbid here, but at 80 years old, as an American male…
I think we will extend Bobby one year. The key will be to cut his legs out from under him; take away Chuck and Mickey and the rest of his buddies. See how much fun he still has coaching when he actually has to do stuff.
by Bud Elliott on Dec 16, 2008 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
Bowden and Joe Pa have already past the average life expectancy of white males.
The law of averages would seem to indicate that the chances of them both being with us in three years is not real good. I of course wish neither man ill will but would like for Bobby to retire ASAP.
Right! I want the best for each man, but I am pointing out the absurdity of expecting those guys to be around.
I saw you were finally fed up with the turnover situation tonight.
by Bud Elliott on Dec 16, 2008 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
Amen
As soon as I saw the Joe Pa extension I cringed. I just hope TK and BB did not chat tonight as our Program can not sustain three more years of BB trying to outlast Joe Pa, which is what this all boils down to. Of course the optimist in me is thinking that BB drops the hubris and realizes he will now never catch JP and retire after the bowl game or the end of next season. Yeah, I know, too much to hope for.
Only 3 NCAA head coaches are older than Mickeyu Andrews. Only 7 are older than Amato.
We don’t have the energy to put in long days.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Tomahawk Nation
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
