MBB Game 13: Pitt 56 FSU 48
Pittsburgh Panthers at Florida St. Seminoles, Dec 21, 2008 5:30 PM EST
Will it be lucky or unlucky number 13 as the Noles take on the #3 team in the country. Check out yesterday's post for an initial discussion on the Pitt offense.
According to our friends at Pomeroy.com...we have a 10 chance of winning this game.
What do you think?
N.B. So close....so so close. The score does not reflect how close this game was. Unfortunately, a couple of late turnovers and poor shooting down the stretch the Noles let one slip away. But...we can play with the big dogs. Despite 18 turnovers and only shooting 29% from the floor...we were in this one. Our defense played out of its mind. Douglas went for 20. My players of the game are Echefu and Demercy. Douglas had his usual 20 points, but Demercy and Echefu did a great job on the boards. 11-2...pretty good way to start the year. Watch out ACC!
This season, the Noles have beat a team from the SEC, Pac-10 and Big East...can we repeat our triumph over the Big East? Through out the last few game threads, many of us have been eagerly looking ahead to tonight's game. Pitt is one of the elite teams in the country and will make a run late into the season. There has been a lot of press about how good this team really is.
Let's take a look at who they are and what they have done so far this year.
Strength of Schedule Rank: Opposing offense...145 Opposing defense...147
No Player Ht Wt Yr G %Min ORtg %Poss %Shots eFG% OR% DR% FTRate
23 Sam Young 6-6 215 Sr 11 72.7 118.6 231 29.1 80 33.4 34 56.7 276 7.3 14.3 31.1
2 Levance Fields 5-10 190 Sr 11 72.0 130.3 39 20.1 17.5 51.8 1.4 6.9 45.9 365
5 Tyrell Biggs 6-8 240 Sr 11 61.1 120.8 170 16.1 17.7 54.8 369 10.7 308 12.1 28.8
45 DeJuan Blair 6-7 265 So 10 59.8 130.2 40 25.5 302 24.3 65.3 25.8 1 29.0 8 43.9
3 Jermaine Dixon 6-3 190 Fr 11 58.0 100.9 17.5 19.9 42.9 3.1 8.1 17.9
22 Brad Wanamaker 6-4 200 So 11 37.3 99.0 18.7 11.9 61.7 1.4 17.9 60.0
11 Gilbert Brown 6-6 200 So 7 32.0 104.6 19.2 18.5 46.3 7.9 13.9 32.5
12 Ashton Gibbs 6-2 190 Fr 10 29.1 130.3 16.3 17.8 64.3 0.9 4.3 31.4
52 Gary McGhee 6-10 255 So 11 26.8 102.5 13.3 10.5 52.6 15.1 13.8 47.4
35 Nasir Robinson 6-5 210 Fr 10 25.9 102.9 13.7 10.9 47.4 8.8 10.5 36.8
1 Travon Woodall 5-11 185 Fr 10 22.0 85.5 16.8 16.8 30.0 0.0 11.2 16.0
Best 95.6 148.3 37.5 39.4 77.8 25.8 36.5 114.3
100th Best 85.6 125.0 28.7 30.6 61.9 13.7 22.7 66.2
500th Best 74.4 111.5 23.8 24.9 52.5 9.2 16.3 39.3
2-point 3-point
No Player Ht Wt Yr ARate TORate %Blocks %Stls FTM-FTA Pct FGM-FGA Pct FGM-FGA Pct
23 Sam Young 6-6 215 Sr 13.6 13.4 294 4.1 277 2.6 34-51 .667 69-119 .580 16-45 .356
2 Levance Fields 5-10 190 Sr 36.5 32 15.8 0.3 1.7 33-39 .846 23-47 .489 14-38 .368
5 Tyrell Biggs 6-8 240 Sr 5.4 12.3 207 1.6 2.0 13-21 .619 28-58 .483 8-15 .533
45 DeJuan Blair 6-7 265 So 9.8 12.4 210 4.1 271 4.1 104 24-43 .558 64-98 .653 0-0 .000
3 Jermaine Dixon 6-3 190 Fr 13.2 17.2 3.4 357 3.0 389 10-14 .714 26-48 .542 5-30 .167
22 Brad Wanamaker 6-4 200 So 19.7 36.8 0.0 3.6 13-18 .722 11-20 .550 5-10 .500
11 Gilbert Brown 6-6 200 So 11.2 21.9 2.3 2.9 10-13 .769 11-26 .423 5-14 .357
12 Ashton Gibbs 6-2 190 Fr 12.7 17.1 0.0 0.5 9-11 .818 6-14 .429 11-21 .524
52 Gary McGhee 6-10 255 So 1.3 22.7 6.4 0.5 4-9 .444 10-19 .526 0-0 .000
35 Nasir Robinson 6-5 210 Fr 14.4 22.7 0.0 2.6 3-7 .429 9-19 .474 0-0 .000
1 Travon Woodall 5-11 185 Fr 25.9 21.8 0.0 3.7 2-4 .500 6-13 .462 1-12 .083
Best 47.9 1.6 20.1 8.1
100th Best 31.0 10.4 6.8 4.1
500th Best 19.9 15.5 2.6 2.8
(The number in the unlabeled column is the player's national rank in that specific category. Go here for the definitions of all the stats.)
This is a well balanced team that has some play makers. The first thing to notice is the percentage of minutes played by the respective players. DeJuan Blair, who is outstanding, is only playing about 60% of the possible game minutes. Seems low...not typically for a big man. Alabi has a low percentage as well. But look at the rest of their top players,, only playing abou 70% of the possible game minutes. Toney Douglas has played clsoe to 95%. Their Bench has played 35.2% of the possible game minutes, which ranks 0th in the nation. This tells me two things: 1) Their bench is deep and 2) They have won many of these games without significant minutes from their starters, meaning fresh legs.
The next staggering figure is the ORtg (Offensive rating), which looks at personal offensive effeciency. As Pomeroy puts it...anything over 110 is good and 120 is excellent. They have 3 players over 130 (one of whom doesn't get a ton of minutes) and 2 over 110.
Then take a look at DeJuan Blair's line. Lots of national rankings...but look at his offensive rebounding percentage....25.8%. This is the percentage of possible offensive rebounds a player gets and is calculated with the following formula:
PlayerOR / [%Min * (Team OR + Opp. DR)]
Apparently, anything over 10% is excellent. Now, we have to keep in mind the type of offense that Pitt runs...a 4-Out, 1-In Motion offense that has a significant component of dribble drive. That means Blair is coming from the weak side on many possessions and cleaning up the boards and getting a lot of tip ins. His eFG% is 65%. That tells me he is doing his job and making the buckets around the rim. There have been some who argue that a lot of these stats are padded due to the competition Pitt has faced this year.
Their season strength of schedule is the following:
Strength of Schedule Rank: Opposing offense...145 Opposing defense...147
The Noles is the following:
Strength of Schedule Rank: Opposing offense...69 Opposing defense...206
Hmmm....So far this year our opponents average ranking in the Pomeroy Index has been 144. Pitt's is a little more difficult to calculate as one the teams they played is not ranked in the top 344...meaning it wasn't a Div I team. If you rank that team as number 345, their strength of schedule has been 131. But look at their margin of victories. They have simply taken care of business on both ends of the floor.
| Offense | Defense | |||||||||||||
| Date | Opponent | Result | Site | Pace | Eff. | eFG% | TO% | OR% | FTR | Eff. | eFG% | TO% | OR% | FTR |
| Fri Nov 14 | Fairleigh Dickinson (s) (sr) | W, 86-63 | H | 68 | 126.1 | 59.2 | 16.1 | 44.4 | 18.5 | 92.4 | 52.0 | 29.3 | 23.6 | 26.5 |
| Mon Nov 17 | Miami OH (s) (sr) | W, 82-53 | H | 67 | 122.2 | 65.7 | 20.9 | 31.4 | 31.5 | 79.0 | 34.5 | 19.4 | 30.1 | 27.6 |
| Fri Nov 21 | Akron (s) (sr) | W, 86-67 | H | 62 | 137.9 | 49.2 | 11.2 | 55.7 | 61.7 | 107.4 | 56.0 | 19.2 | 25.5 | 28.0 |
| Sat Nov 22 | Indiana PA (s) (sr) | W, 86-60 | H | 65 | 133.0 | 56.1 | 13.9 | 50.7 | 25.8 | 92.8 | 40.5 | 13.9 | 30.6 | 15.9 |
| Tue Nov 25 | Belmont (s) (sr) | W, 74-60 | H | 68 | 109.2 | 68.9 | 26.6 | 26.4 | 46.7 | 88.5 | 34.9 | 19.2 | 47.6 | 23.3 |
| Fri Nov 28 | Texas Tech (s) (sr) | W, 80-67 | N | 76 | 105.0 | 50.0 | 21.0 | 41.8 | 41.5 | 88.0 | 42.2 | 13.1 | 19.8 | 29.7 |
| Sat Nov 29 | Washington St. (s) (sr) | W, 57-43 | N | 58 | 97.7 | 38.5 | 13.7 | 30.9 | 56.3 | 73.7 | 41.7 | 24.0 | 19.0 | 8.3 |
| Wed Dec 3 | Duquesne (s) (sr) | W, 78-51 | H | 70 | 110.8 | 48.5 | 25.6 | 57.1 | 27.3 | 72.5 | 42.7 | 34.1 | 39.7 | 21.8 |
| Sat Dec 6 | Vermont (s) (sr) | W, 80-51 | H | 75 | 106.4 | 44.6 | 17.3 | 45.6 | 33.8 | 67.8 | 30.6 | 22.6 | 26.8 | 30.6 |
| Sat Dec 13 | MD Baltimore County (s) (sr) | W, 91-56 | H | 58 | 157.2 | 66.2 | 12.1 | 55.0 | 9.2 | 96.8 | 54.1 | 22.5 | 28.3 | 8.2 |
| Wed Dec 17 | Siena (s) (sr) | W, 79-66 | H | 68 | 116.1 | 47.0 | 10.3 | 42.2 | 34.3 | 97.0 | 44.6 | 14.7 | 28.9 | 18.5 |
Miami (OH) and Washington St. have been their most difficult competion thus far. They have been held under 70 points only once this year. They have allowed only 4 teams to score more than 60 points.
Raw Tempo: 67.1 poss/40 min National Rank=190
Adj Tempo: 66.8 poss/40 min National Rank=200
Offense Defense
Raw Efficiency : 119.0 ( 4) 86.2 ( 19)
Adj Efficiency : 122.5 ( 3) 83.6 ( 13)
Effective FG% : 53.4 ( 46) 42.6 ( 26)
Turnover Pct. : 17.7 ( 32) 21.7 (139)
Off. Rebound% : 44.0 ( 6) 30.0 ( 80)
Free Throw Rate: 23.5 (189) 22.7 ( 9)
3-Point FG% : 35.7 (116) 31.2 ( 95)
2-Point FG% : 53.3 ( 38) 40.2 ( 20)
Free Throw Pct.: 67.1 (196) 68.5 (175)
Block Pct. : 6.6 ( 67) 10.6 ( 90)
Steal Pct. : 8.0 ( 51) 13.1 ( 26)
3PA/FGA : 27.6 (287) 35.8 (265)
A/FGM : 63.4 ( 32) 55.7 (184)
Lots and lots of green. They get it done at both ends of the floor and I would argue that they have done so against similar competiton to what we have played. However, they have only played two games away from Pitt. We've played all over the country, winning tough games against big name teams away from home. Advantage us.
In my previous post, I mentioned how their offense runs. They wear you down until you make a mistake...wasn't that a Top Gun line or something? Anyway. Their tempo is slow. They don't run and gun and try to score quickly in the possesion. They are taking about 1.6 shot attempts per minute of game play, which is pretty quick. But look at the turnovers. They don't give the ball up and they force turnovers...so they get a good ammount of shots, but not a ridiculous ammount. Some teams average closer to 2 shots per minute of game play.
Can I point out any weaknesses? That is a tough task. They're experienced, averaging 1.5 years of college experience, 207th in the nation. They have 3 stud seniors and Blair who is only a sophomore. We have one edge in raw numbers: size. Granted we have this by default against any other team in the country as we are the tallest team in the country per minute of game play. Their height is 76.3 inches, or 6'4". Our average is 6'7 or 79 inches. Their tallest player is only 6'10. Blair is only 6'7" (DO NOT let that fool you).
We are the best defense that Pitt has seen all year. So, can Leonard Hamilton get his team fired up to shut down this offense? Let's take a look at our numbers:
Raw Tempo: 67.9 poss/40 min National Rank=160
Adj Tempo: 68.9 poss/40 min National Rank=125
Offense Defense
Raw Efficiency : 99.5 (183) 90.2 ( 43)
Adj Efficiency : 99.1 (185) 87.0 ( 32)
Effective FG% : 49.4 (148) 43.3 ( 37)
Turnover Pct. : 24.9 (307) 22.5 (115)
Off. Rebound% : 36.0 ( 90) 33.1 (161)
Free Throw Rate: 36.3 ( 9) 33.3 (115)
3-Point FG% : 35.8 (115) 32.9 (141)
2-Point FG% : 47.4 (186) 39.7 ( 17)
Free Throw Pct.: 71.1 (100) 64.3 ( 59)
Block Pct. : 5.9 ( 45) 18.1 ( 8)
Steal Pct. : 9.8 (170) 12.2 ( 55)
3PA/FGA : 32.3 (183) 37.4 (294)
A/FGM : 54.4 (160) 48.6 ( 65)
Yes...our achilles heel is our turnover percentage. We turn the ball over 1 out of every 4 possessions, yet somehow we continue to win games. These turnovers come in every flavor...offensive fouls, throwing the ball out of bounds, getting stuck in terrible traps, poor placement of passes. You name it we do it. Hamilton even joked after a game that it was like a game of HORSE.
Take a look at the positives. We get to the line. and we shoot the ball quite well when we actually hang on to it. Our offensive rebound percentage has steadily improved. Our defense is excellent, 39th in the nation. This is where we have a chance to stay in this game. If we force Pitt to grind it out in a low scoring game, we have the advantage. How so...we get to the line a lot and we shoot the ball well when we get there.
Although I didn't get to watch the last game, it was a huge step in the right direction. The addition of Kitchen has been key. He is aggressive around the rim and is distributing the ball well. Alabi finally woke up and had a huge game. He needs to be an absolute beast in this game and use his size to clean up any garbage coming off the rim.
I think the keys to the game will be the following:
- Douglas must shut down their guards.
- Alabi has to play bigger than he ever has before.
- Singleton must use his athleticisim to his advantage and continue to drain the three. It will open up the offense.
- Turnovers. Nuff said.
- Kitchen must play more.
- Reid has to keep a body on Blair. Blair will have a great game regardless but don't let him get easy boards. Having Alabi will help.
Hamilton put it well: "They don't have a weakness at any five spots on the court. They have great players at every position."
Here is their likely starting lineup:
Tyrell Biggs F 6'8" 240 Sr
Sam Young F 6'6" 215 Sr
DeJuan Blair F 6'7" 270 So
Levance Fields G 5'10" 190 Sr
Jermain Dixon G 6'3 190 Fr
Here are our starters:
F #31 Chris Singleton 6'9 220 (9.7 ppg, 6.7 rpg; 8.0 ppg and 7.8 rpg in 4 games vs. major opponents)
F #42 Ryan Reid 6'8 235 (8.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg; 9.0 ppg and 4.0 rpg in 4 games vs. major opponents)
C #32 Solomon Alab 7'1 241 (7.8 ppg, 2.1 bpg; 6.8 ppg and 2.0 bpg in 4 games vs. major opponents)
G #2 Jordan DeMercy 6'7 208 (4.7 ppg, 2.8 rpg; 4.8 ppg and 1.5 rpg in 4 games vs. major opponents)
G #23 Toney Douglas 6'2 200 (17.7 ppg, 1.9 spg; 14.8 ppg and 1.8 spg in 4 games vs. major opponents)
As of now the game is being televised on FSN. I don't know if it will be shown nationally. If anyone knows any different please speak up.
Here is what will likely be the radio link:
http://sportsradio1470.com/whbo4.asx
So....is Pomeroy correct? 10% chance to win? FSUncensored asked me if I believe in moral victories. I think if we can keep this one close, within 10 points, it will help us with the selection committee in March. Will a close loss get us in...no. But, it will get people to take a closer look at us. This should be a fun one. I only hope that we keep our focus and use our size to our advantage and control the game.
Go NOLES!
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Comments
Pitt started 7-0
But the Noles have cut it to 2, 11-9 on a TD 3
alabi is just not big enough
thats two times in a row that he hasnt been able to make himself big to allow for the inlet pass.
The game is going exactly how I hoped and thought it would...
We’re grinding it out and playing great defense. A low scoring affair and we’re doing great on the defensive boards
We are in this game because we’re getting to the free throw line. We only have 10 shot attempts (remember a foul on a shot does not count as an attempt unless it goes in). The 10 turnovers is not great, but could be worse. We’re still in this…that’s huge. Echefu is having a great game on the boards…and he aboslutely needed to.
We are
playing real good d so far. Our offense has been horrible as usual, but Pitt is a great defensive team. TD has really showed up, i hope we can keep it close and pull it out in the end!
I think we should all be very happy how this game has gone. Yes our offense has been lack luster...but so has theirs.
We have scored our points at the line…but that is a good thing. We’re rebounding the ball very well and we’re playing the our style of basketball. This is the lowest point total they have had at the half all year.
My MVP so far…Echefu. 4 rebounds. He’s probably fighting it out with Blair under the boards.
I have noticed a couple times that we go to the basket so hard, we have no shot at making the basket
If we don’t get the contact, it’s a turnover. I like the drives, but they need to be under control.
I thought we were shooting back
But they’re under 28%
1 possession game with the ball
and 6 min. left.
This is good
(Be better if we were up of course, but…)
number 4 on Blair
Love Singleton – just love him
Bad shot by demercy
questionable offensive foul in our favor
We can't get anxious, sloppy and rush shots. Tossing up threes will not help us. Get the ball inside and get to the foul line.
Well - missing 3's won't help us
If we hit one of those…
Nothing to be ashamed of
Good experience for our youngs.
we can play with these guys – just need to hit our shots.
At the end of the game
TD forced a couple of shots that hurt us, but overall i was impressed with the fight our guys had. Good learning experience for us.
I'm not happy with the way Hamilton coached the game down the stretch. They needed a time out after that offensive rebound on the missed three.
It would have settled the team down and we wouldn’t have felt as rushed. This is a young team and we have to admire how close this game was. This will help us later in the year if we have a good run in the ACC tournament. This is pretty much how I evenisioned the game would be played out.
Grind it out. Slow paced. Tough defense. I’m proud of the way the guys played tonight. This was a great game for our confidence and proves that we can play against the elite teams in the country. Watch out. This is going to be a great basketball team over the next couple of years.
Yea
I was suprised Hamilton didnt call a time out also.
I just got back from that game
I felt like throwing something at the ref. The one that looks like he has the unibrow and was always squinting. Douglas is a beast.
Well, I will appreciate for you to keep my zingers out of your mouth!
How did we look in person? Most of us watched it on internet tv?
Was it as close as it seems? There were a lot of phantom calls towards the end of the game.
Douglas is a beast.
The ref, like I said above, with the unibrow thing and the squinty eyes
was really screwing us over towards the end of the game. Before it was the white-haired ref. Half the game I was chasing around the cheerleader with the pizza box, but then she went outside, and I had to abandon the mission. Anywho, Reid hit the floor REALLY hard, I am surprised he came back in. If you watch him on the inside, he is getting mugged, but they rarely call that. The crowd really started to get into it, but then we made our famous late-collapse and we quieted down. Gameplan: feed it to Toney who is in 3-point range.
Well, I will appreciate for you to keep my zingers out of your mouth!
I like our defense
- We are very long, and should continue to hold opponents to a low %
- The coaches must do a better job stressing boxing out. There is no way that we should give up 17 offensive rebounds!
- If we cut our turnovers from once every 4 possessions to once every 5 possessions, we will make the tournament.
- Too much standing around. Scrap this motion offense if we can’t teach it, have our kids understand it, and execute the game plan.
- This team is good enough to win 8 ACC games simply by playing great defense and running a series of set plays and iso’s
- Good showing on National TV
Too much standing around. Scrap this motion offense if we can’t teach it, have our kids understand it, and execute the game plan.
But what do you swap it with? I understand what you are saying but how can you install a new offense? Also the only way they are going to get it down is by playing it. I think they have to stick with it (maybe cut it down a little bit if that’s possible) and just suffer through it.
I don't know, but
I do know that his past results pretty clearly show that he cannot teach it. I don’t believe it is a coincidence that his guys turn the ball over at insane rates while not having the ball stolen (meaning they throw passes to guys who are not open, not in the right spots). The players don’t get it, and Hamilton hasn’t been able to teach it in what, 7 years? It seems TP and AT were able to hide this for a few seasons.
by Bud Elliott on Dec 22, 2008 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
This is dependent on basketball IQ...and either you have it or you don't.
Many of these players were excellent high school players who were able to dominate simply because they were great athletes…no scheme necessary. Do you think Lebron James really stuck to his high school coach’s offense? Part of the problem is that we need a true point guard. Toney Douglas is a great basketball player but I really don’t seem him as a point guard. He likes to get to his spots and shoot. I think as we see the increased playing time of Kitchen and increased confidence/comfort of Loucks….things will get better.
Against a team like Pitt
We have to switch to zone coverage. Pitt is great at setting picks, and they kept setting a perfect pick so there were two other guys who could have blocked the shots, but that one guy had to stay on his man, so they would get a wide-open three.
Well, I will appreciate for you to keep my zingers out of your mouth!
Great Point BoSox.
We have a huge team that could do well in a zone. Think about how well Syracuse did a few years ago with their zone. Last night, Pitt was not shooting the ball well from the field, at least during the first half and well into the second half. Many of those were missed lay ups, but they couldn’t buy a three pointer until the end of the game. I we sat in zone it would have forced them to continue to shoot from outside. I’ll put up a post later this week about different zone defenses if you guys are interested and how we may or may not benefit from such a scheme.
Def interested in the zone defense post
BoSox you are right that we really needed to utilize more. We did do it a little bit towards the end but we went right back into man. I understand man favors a more aggressive athletic style but against certain teams we have to make the switch.
Did anyone else question Hamilton’s subs once again??? I don’t think anyone was in real foul trouble were they? I may be nit-picking and please correct if i’m off base but i still don’t get what he’s doing sometimes
Post Game News Conference
http://seminoles.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/recaps/122108aaa.html
I think Hamilton really gets it: “That’s what experienced veteran teams, with well-coached talent, will do,” FSU head coach Leonard Hamilton said. “They finished their plays and we didn’t. I can’t fault our players’ effort; I thought we gave tremendous effort. I think we could still execute a little better.”
And credit from the Pitt Coach: “That’s a good team,” Jamie Dixon said of the Seminoles. “They’re going to win a lot of games.” and “They’re the best defensive team we’ve played against,” (I think we all knew that Coach…thanks)
Is there any stat that seems to be an overriding factor in a winning team? For example in football 3rd down passing efficiency is strong indicator of wins.
You speak of win/loss correlations
It actually varies from team to team.
One thing that is consistent: championship teams rarely rely on steals from their defense (cough… tennessee… cough). This is likely because elite teams have great ball handlers.
Our correlations:
Correlations
to OE to DE
Pace: -0.14 +0.03
eFG: +0.69* +0.39
OR: +0.48 +0.04
TO%: -0.52 +0.03
FTR: -0.01 +0.20
Opp eFG: +0.51 +0.82*
Opp OR: -0.35 -0.10
Opp TO%: +0.00 -0.57
Opp FTR: +0.04 +0.40



























