Monday Morning Guest Column: Bowden's best is better than Urban's best
by Bud Elliott on Jan 12, 2009 5:00 AM EST
in FSU Football
47 comments
A pretty interesting weekend at Tomahawk Nation. We had lots of new members and ended up hanging with Duke for much of the basketball game. SBNation (our network of blogs) tries to emphasize the community feel. The content is primarily the result of members and writers. Today, one of our own members is featured in a guest column...
A few days ago while discussing Bobby Bowden's rather uninformative press conference, I made the argument that Urban Meyer was better in his prime (now) than Bobby Bowden was in his glory days. Realizing that this was going to start a war in the comment section and not wanting to detract from the point of the article (that Bowden currently is one of the worst coaches in major college football), I decided to delete the comment. FSUvaFan, however, vehemently disagreed with my thoughts and said he was preparing a response. I asked him to e-mail me the response so that I could go ahead and delete the comment.
FSUvaFan came strong, bringing eight pages! In fact, the charts are so substantial that they destroy the formatting of the site. As such, I have attached the article in a word document. Bowden v. Meyer (click link to download).
An assertion was made that Urban Meyer's "best" as a coach was better than Bobby Bowden's "best". Inside is a compilation of some statistics that should prove that assertion erroneous.
My Assertion: Bobby Bowden, at the top of his game (or I should say "games" as will be shown in the tables below) is still better than Urban Meyer at the top of his. At least thus far Bowden was.
Final Conclusions (based on info inside): At his best(s) Bobby Bowden has won more games, playing higher ranked opponents (avg.), playing more ranked opponents, and outscoring opponents MORE than Urban Meyer has thus far in Urban's career (using a 4 year time span). 1991-1994 was Bowden's Best 4 year string. Even if you take Bowden's SINGLE best year and compare it to Meyers, Bowden still comes out the better.
The cherry on Top: Bowden has class, Meyer does not.
Enjoy and be sure to thank FSUvaFan for his rather substantial effort. I did not expect to get eight pages on this and I look forward to sharing this with some UF fans.
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PS
The opponent rankings are the Final AP poll rankings.
"I am the Real Vine and my Father is the Farmer. He cuts off every branch of me that doesn't bear grapes. And every branch that is grape-bearing he prunes back so it will bear even more"
playing devil's advocate
Wouldn’t the 2 championships in 4 years trump Bowden’s 1 championship in any 4 year period?
Why is it a 4-year period? If you’re cherry-picking Bowden’s best periods, why not just use Meyer’s last 3-year period? Or compare Bowden’s first 4 years to Meyer’s first 4 years?
Where was the comparison on “class” in this argument? Didn’t your analysis show that Bowden ran up the score more than Meyer? Or are you basing this on arrests per 4 years, booster scandals per 4 years, academic scandals per 4 years?
More research is needed before your conclusion can be accepted.
I think you missed part of the premise
FTA: Meyer was better in his prime (now) than Bobby Bowden was in his glory days
4 year period because thats how long Meyer has been around.
I’m not cherry picking Bowdens best periods, just going off the arguement that Meyer’s best is better than Bowden’s Best. Meyer’s 2 rings in 4 years might trump Bowdens 2 rings in 6 years but that is subjective. Lets not also forget how we could throw in, if we could find, fundraising differences. More subjective estimates would be what Bowden did to the program, and how great he was with the media, compared to Meyer.
No Class: When Meyer was asked about what he thought of the Oklahoma – Boise State game Meyer responded “my wife had to wake me up” or something to that nature, which I can find for you. He was upset that attention was drawn away from his game. I can go on further about how Meyer has little class compared to Bowden if you wish.
ALSO those academic scandals, arrests, etc. you speak up has to do with Bowden’s worst. This deals with Bowdens BEST vs Meyer’s BEST, so before you start trying to tear down the post, take some time to read and think please.
"I am the Real Vine and my Father is the Farmer. He cuts off every branch of me that doesn't bear grapes. And every branch that is grape-bearing he prunes back so it will bear even more"
I am not sure
your Meyer quote shows classlessness. Bobby can’t stay awake through any games. Anne has to wake him up just for dinner.
That would be my rebuttle to the person who you are role paying in their shoes.
"I am the Real Vine and my Father is the Farmer. He cuts off every branch of me that doesn't bear grapes. And every branch that is grape-bearing he prunes back so it will bear even more"
Then
I would have to apologize for a grouchy response. Late for work, the kitchen is a mess, arguement with the wife, staples was close so I couldn’t get a notebook for my first class, etc.
"I am the Real Vine and my Father is the Farmer. He cuts off every branch of me that doesn't bear grapes. And every branch that is grape-bearing he prunes back so it will bear even more"
Thanks for writting that up FSUvaFan
Charts tend to make me go cross-eyed, but there was some good information. I do think that the sample size of Meyers seasons is far too small so far (not his fault obviously). I think Meyer is a great coach and I am a little upset he is at Florida, where we have to face him every year.
Good stuff though!
I agree, great write up FSUva
Although I think there is a little be said for the fact that for Bowden’s four year period he was firmly entrenched as head coach. While the players Meyer inherited were very good, and their first title was won on defense, very few of the original guys he had on offense were made for his system.
I do not like what coach Bowden has become, but I’m still on the fence regarding whether Meyer is better than he ever was.
I also think the passion invoked in this argument makes it impossible to discuss logically, as I believe both sides will draw their conclusion then look for evidence to back it up.
Yeah, thats where trying to cut out subjective as much as possible is good.
I do not deny that Meyer is heading in the direction of being better.
"I am the Real Vine and my Father is the Farmer. He cuts off every branch of me that doesn't bear grapes. And every branch that is grape-bearing he prunes back so it will bear even more"
Great job, FSUvaFan.
Of course Urban’s already better than Bowden! Just like Bob Stoops was the next John Wooden after 2000.
We’ll see how it all turns out. History will show that Bowden did everything he did at Florida State, which means nothing to us young folks, but would be the modern-day equivalent of Urbie staying at Bowling Green and having the same success that he’s now having at Florida, or, if you’d rather, similar success to what Jim Tressel has at Ohio State if you want to account for regional differences in talent. Honestly, just taking the argument in this direction illustrates that fans probably won’t ever be able to compare the two.
Personally, I’ll be interested to see if Meyer can go 14 straight years with a Top 5 finish. (I care nothing of one-loss NC’s. Consistency in college football and winning bowl games is what keep the masses happy and create lasting legacies. Without a playoff, too much is left to chance, and fans know this. I mean, it’s not like USC’s hurting, are they?) Should be easy enough for him though, right? He’s at… 1.
uh, you mean 14 yeras with a top 5 finish PLUS
siezing up and shutting down his offense in the 4th Q against comparably talented teams, on the belief that his worn-out defense will win it alone, and thus choking away about 3 MNC’s? Yes, he can equal that 14-record, IF (a) the gator boosters allow him to stay that long; (b) miami and FSU go on successive probations with severe scholly while other schools stop trying to recruit in Florida and © he loses a few brain cells and is unable to learn from mistakes and wasted opportuniites.
Take Bowden's single best record, still beats Meyer
Given the contraints of the analysis.
"I am the Real Vine and my Father is the Farmer. He cuts off every branch of me that doesn't bear grapes. And every branch that is grape-bearing he prunes back so it will bear even more"
That's pretty harsh.
I’ll pile on Bowden Current, but I won’t pile on Bowden Past. I’ll wait for someone to match the achievement while conceding Bowden was never perfect. I also wouldn’t trade the 14 years for anyone else’s in any era.
This criticism is nothing new.
Lest you think this is some kind of revisionist viewpoint, many of us were levelling these criticisms of Bowden in the late 80’s-early 90’s as he choked away game after game against miami by playing for field goals while they continued to go for the jugualr and won. He was completely outcoached by a series of miami coaches, because he was/is just that mediocre when it comes to strategy.
Those 14 years were also a time of frustation to many, as Bobby’s myopia failed to take full advantage of unique recruiting advantages and circumstances that will never be repeated.
I have to agree with this
Bowden consistently made the wrong call in game after important game. You take the good and the bad.
Aware it's not a revisionist view.
And conceded he was never perfect. Can’t argue a point I’m not making.
I also can’t help but love what Bowden did for our program and can think of no comparable 14-year span in college football history – regardless of how much better it wouldashouldacoulda been – and I’m ready like hell for him to leave.
Bowden’s recruiting advantages in the ’70’s and ’80’s continue to be overstated on this board. Also, Bowden’s big-game flaw was his end-game panic, not his game strategy, as he didn’t play for field goals back then. Watch ‘91 FSU-Miami: Weldon’s duck that forced the first field goal. Eric Turral’s dropped catch of the “juggular” before the wide right. Watch Wide Right II: Shannon Baker also dropped a pass in the endzone before that fatal miss. Bowden became conservative much later in his career. Of course I’m being picky – Bowden was clearly outcoached in those games – but since the subject of revisionism came up.
Wow... just... wow
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
I'm not one two compare different eras
But really, I think it’s something of a wash. Bowden’s best 4 years also correspond to entering the ACC. If you think the ACC is a Basketball conference now, I think the only school that realized the ACC even sponsored football then was Clemson.
Now, that being said, when you peel back the hype, the SEC was down in 06 and 08. Outside of their 2006 win against LSU, UF regular season wins either.
"I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."-Bill Hicks
by Jonathan Loesche on Jan 12, 2009 3:16 PM EST reply actions
Comparing eras is the flawed premise.
Does anyone seriously think that in this age of parity, when coaching makes a major part of the differences between schools, that a 45 year old Bobby Bowdn could step in and do what Meyer has done at UF?
For the answer to that question, just compare Bowden’s “success” at WVa to Urbie’s at Utah.
Take a look at the number of ranked FSU opponents and average rank of those opponents in the download
"I am the Real Vine and my Father is the Farmer. He cuts off every branch of me that doesn't bear grapes. And every branch that is grape-bearing he prunes back so it will bear even more"
Basing anything # of Nat'l Championships is bogus.
It’s like the people who are now saying Meyer has surpassed Spurrier because he backed into two MNC games. What a joke.
The single biggest reason UF is on the run they are on because FSU and Miami are down. If the other two state schools had been down in the 90’s then FSU would surely have another MNC or two.
by Dent Street Nole on Jan 12, 2009 5:30 PM EST reply actions
.....partly true
but some of the reason that FSU and Miami are taking so long to rebuild is Florida’s dominance in recruiting. Florida has now been able to secure more national recruits than has Miami or FSU. In the early 2000’s it was Miami and in the 90’s it was Florida State.
Chicken or Egg.
Is there someway you could post this piece by piece?
Great job FSUvaFan.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
I would be happy to (with a more detailed thought process) if wanted.
"I am the Real Vine and my Father is the Farmer. He cuts off every branch of me that doesn't bear grapes. And every branch that is grape-bearing he prunes back so it will bear even more"
I might have missed this..
but when I read the bowling green comment by TRM, I also looked at it like Bowden BUILT the program. If thats what you meant, my bad; I kind of looked at as simply staying at a school. But yeah, by creating something from nothing I think he gets extra points when comparing it to Urban who came to a school with a full cupboard. Thats just IMHO though.
And even so, Bowdens single best year was better given those stats and constraints than Urbans.
"I am the Real Vine and my Father is the Farmer. He cuts off every branch of me that doesn't bear grapes. And every branch that is grape-bearing he prunes back so it will bear even more"
Yes, I meant the building of and loyalty to the program of a school like Florida State at the time / modern-day Bowling Green.
The comparison isn’t meant for over-analyzing obviously as I’m sure experts of ’70’s-era FSU and modern-era Bowling Green would want to weigh in – it’s just a bridge for contrast.
Phillip Thomas lining up at CB during Dade-Broward game.
http://www.soflafootball.com/fan-forum/topic.php?id=311
Interesting to say the least. I’m awaiting an answer.
FSUnC, if no trouble, please bump this to tomorrow’s topic (whatever it may be). The recruiting thread seems dead.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
Just wanted to say thank you to everyone for reading, I appreciate your time.
"I am the Real Vine and my Father is the Farmer. He cuts off every branch of me that doesn't bear grapes. And every branch that is grape-bearing he prunes back so it will bear even more"
I think there would have to be some numbers in there also
If you wanted to comepare thses two you have to look at some things.
1) the players stats from both eras.
Charlie Ward vs Tim Tebow,
2) Which team had the better recruits?
3) Which team had the harder schedule STR with the better wins?
4) Who had the better staff?
You can look at a lot of things but for me to tell who is the better I would look at these. The better coach would have won more games with higher scores with worst players. The ? is who had the worst team. Both of these teams are in the history books. Charlie Ward vs Tim Tebow can you realy compare. BB changed the way college football is played today. Spurrier changed the way football was played because of BB and Meyer has changed how football will be played from now on. This is just how things work. The only thing that realy matters anymore is when/if Jimbo comes in as HC can/will he change Football again. I would hope so. to me though Jimbo is using BB plays right now. I can wait to see what will happen with he takes over, what kinda of Off will he run, what DC will he go out and get. things like that.
I tried to do schedule strength with the # of top 25 ranked opponents and then average rank of those opponents.
the average of the ranked opponents doesn’t really mean anything unless the # of top 25 opponents is similar in number. Is there some other way I could rank the strength of schedule? I tried to look up historical rankings but couldn’t find any (hence, tried my own).
Your right about the players and staff though, thanks for the suggestions.
"I am the Real Vine and my Father is the Farmer. He cuts off every branch of me that doesn't bear grapes. And every branch that is grape-bearing he prunes back so it will bear even more"
Also,
I didn’t want to do player stat comparisons because Meyer inherited a lot of players, where Bowden had been in the program for long enough that I thought the comparison wouldnt work. If the numbers were there, it would be a factor, however, of a good coach
"I am the Real Vine and my Father is the Farmer. He cuts off every branch of me that doesn't bear grapes. And every branch that is grape-bearing he prunes back so it will bear even more"
Also, I think your premise is flawed
I would say 97-2000 would be Bowden at his best. We were Fred Taylor’s coming out party away from 4 straight National Title appearances, 3-1 vs UF and Miami, etc
"I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."-Bill Hicks
by Jonathan Loesche on Jan 13, 2009 9:14 AM EST reply actions
Could be, you make a good point.
"I am the Real Vine and my Father is the Farmer. He cuts off every branch of me that doesn't bear grapes. And every branch that is grape-bearing he prunes back so it will bear even more"
You could proabably
make an argument that Coker’s best is better than Bowden’s best if you do a 4 year comparison. I haven’t looked at the numbers, just a guess. Anyway, it is an enticing argument and debate. Thanks!
What makes you think Meyer is at his peak?
He hasn’t even scratched the surface.
This is at this current point in time,
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
Typical gator, still need to learn how to read.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
the class issue
“Bowden has class, Meyer does not”
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it takes a lot of ignorance for such a broad statement like that. Bobby Bowden, who was last relevant sometime in 2000-2001, has presided over a thuggish program only a Miami fan could appreciate. For all his hee-haw idioms and inability to graciously walk away from a program he has helped build for no other reason than to secure the all-time wins record does not scream classy to me. Standing on the 30 yard-line when the play is down at the other 30 yard line is no way to go out as a legendary figure in college football.
Every program has their share of NCAA problems and bad apples that run afoul of the law, so I am not going to say Bowden is any worse than some other coach. But it galls me to read from some jealous super fan of the Seminoles that Bowden equals class and Meyer does not.
Look, it sucks to be a Seminoles fan now. I get it. They are a mediocre team who play in mediocre bowls and have been getting their heads handed to them by Florida for 5 years now. I get it. Look, you can say Meyer is classless, it does not matter, but do not ever put Bowden on some pedestal like he is some… some… saint!
To put it how he might understand it: ‘he ain’t.’
Doesn't Florida lead the Fulmer Cup?
To answer your post:
We are all right. You are wrong.
Bowden has class.
Do you think Meyer has class?
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
I will put him on a pedestal of class if I want, and a pedestal is where he belongs as long as we are considering his best vs Meyers.
I have a feeling you know that Bowden has more class than Meyer, and thats what drove you to write this.
Perhaps it was ignorant (to use your terminology, although I’m not sure how correct) to say that a thuggish program only Miami could appreciate when Florida is probably just as bad.
Stealing a laptop
Stealing dead girls credit cards
Drug Charges
Assaulting Women (boy thats a big one in Hogville)
Firing guns into the air
Firing into abandoned apartments
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
Battery of women I mean.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
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