Strategy Session: Cross the Deep Crossing Route off FSU's List
by Bud Elliott on Jan 19, 2009 6:31 PM EST
106 comments
I'm always on the lookout for articles about football strategy or concepts that fit into FSU's general scheme. Part of knowing who you are, however, is knowing who you are not. Today, we'll discuss a concept we shouldn't often run run-- the deep crossing route.
The Cardinals shocked the world and defeated the Carolina Panthers two weeks ago. Many of our members were intrigued by a screen play 'Zona dialed up, but it was another play that caught the eye of Chris at Smartfootball.blogspot.com (probably our favorite strategy blog, and easily the best at discussing passing concepts).
Chris really liked the way Arizona ran the Deep Crossing Route. His article appears here. Read that article and then come back here.
Let's start with The Route.
There are a few problems I see here. First, this route requires a lot of practice. College teams don't get anywhere near the practice time that pro squads have. Second, against zone or combo coverage, this route requires both the receiver and the quarterback to make complex multi-level reads. These reads are further complicated because the deep cross is a bit of a slow developing route, so the QB must be able to trust his protection so that he can be 100% focused on the reads (This is true of any passing play, but most QB's will tell you that some routes are easier to read while distracted).
The second reason this play isn't feasible as a staple of our offense is that it is unnecessary. As Chris says, the route is great because it is very versatile, which is needed in the NFL because NFL teams play crazy coverages-- "to the extent that good coordinators often can't identify the coverage even after the play is over." In the college game, offense is more about getting your guys into situations to win one-on-one matchups; not to completely have a guy wide open against a defense. In the same vein, college defenses do not play unidentifiable coverages. They generally play cover 1, cover 3 (Bama), or some form of cover 2 (Miami). You'll see the occasional quarters. Few zone blitz well and nobody has enough practice time to come close to approximating even the simplest of NFL defensive schemes (though some would argue Saban). We don't really need to run this route. Why waste a ton of time on something you don't need.
Using the route to satisfy our need for a vertical stretch.
Vertical Stretch
I love comparing our offense to the Colts offense. We can run a ton of Smash and Levels (and I will discuss how we can do these in the coming weeks). In Chris' article, however, he shows the Colts running stretch action. For us, I would prefer that we not run the stretch action and then drop off of it. Instead, I think we should restrict our use of this route to something we do fairly well and should do amazingly well next year: the bootleg. Ponder's wheels make this a deadly play for us and in running this route with the boot action, Ponder gets an easier, half-field read outside of the hash. 
Sima fakes the stretch action to Pittman to the left then bootlegs out to the right to see Clayton running the deep cross. The deep safety on the far hash must respect the run and Clayton should cross his face with ease. The near safety must respect Williams, so the window to throw this ball to Clayton is pretty significant. One of the backers must respect the TE/HB Becht so he won't be dropping deep. (Analysis assumes cover 2 or cover 3). Using this route with boot action helps to take away some of the more difficult requirements of such a versatile but seemingly simple route.
Chris talk about Bill Walsh and The AirRaid. I'm not aware of those two systems shaping Jimbo's offensive philosophy, so I don't care to discuss that too much.
Photo Credit: Chris of Smartfootball.blogspot.com
0 recs |
106 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
That Madden screenshot is usually called a "Flood."
I am pretty sure “Smash” is one of our base plays in our offense.
Jimbo wrote an interesting article about it here.
http://www.americanfootballmonthly.com/Arena/NS_Magazine/Current/smash.html
Jimbo really goes into some detail.
That would be awesome if we got Chris to post here, somehow. His site is amazing now he posts a lot (for him).
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
I was planning on doing a fanpost about it, breaking it down.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
Ok I like Jimbo even more now.
That is a good read. I think you throw that read into this flood play above and now you have something. So when you reads from the smash fail the TE brakes back across and pulls anyone off the farside WR and there you have a play that takes about 45+ sec of the clock and hope you have good blocks.
Wow, thanks for the link
I read the whole thing and didn’t even notice Jimbo wrote it, I must have just clicked the link without reading your post.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 19, 2009 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
On the smash, I'm not sure I agree with Jimbo's approach here.
I would eliminate the WR reads, just make it a simple smash.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
What about throwing in the divide like Chris gushes over?
by Bud Elliott on Jan 20, 2009 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
That would be awesome, providing Ponder can make the right reads.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
ok Im not seeing something
1) why would the S on Claytons side have to watch Williams no he should respect the run but not comit he should sit and in zone cover his zone and in man cover his man/zone
2) The CB on Clayton has no help other than the S if he goes crossface and cuts up or back then hes burnt, The CB has to stay on him untell he knows 100% its run.
3) the play is not good for the cross because the QB is on a bootleg, I could see a check off it the S shows blitz but I would never throw cross field like that. I think the better play would be to go to the TE in man and williams in zone. the deep cross is just getting someone as a last min last call because he can read the S and cut up on him and try to get deep enough behind the LB or try to get behind the S.
I think the play would take to long for him to be open.
1) why would the S on Claytons side have to watch Williams no he should respect the run but not comit he should sit and in zone cover his zone and in man cover his man/zone.
I was assuming cover-2 or cover 3. Game changes in man cover, as you noted.
A Saftey
…at least in coverage, first step is always back. Your primary responsibility is ALWAYS pass (unless you are walked up as an extra backer). However, if a quarterback rolls up, a smart saftey is going to start squaring up like a LB and working downhill WITH the quarterback.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
One of the first reads for QB would be to check the go/fly, I believe this is called "peeking"
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
3) the play is not good for the cross because the QB is on a bootleg, I could see a check off it the S shows blitz but I would never throw cross field like that. I think the better play would be to go to the TE in man and williams in zone. the deep cross is just getting someone as a last min last call because he can read the S and cut up on him and try to get deep enough behind the LB or try to get behind the S.
Des, it’s not a throw across the field because the run action is originally to Clayton’s side.
but the qb facks then has to turn he has no clue whats going on
that 1/2 the field. hes going to turn and start the look for the blitz off the end then start the checks for the 2wr and TE while looking for a DT/DE to outrun. thin when all else fails he can try to look back. In madden 09 you have more field of vision than in real life. Im not a QB and dont know but I didnt think you can tell other than looking at the hashes where a CB is shadded in or out.
QBs would have to trust their pre snap reads.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
Pro D's are a lot more complex than college ones.
NFL is a whole different animal.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
The bootleg often involves turning your back.
I like this play because it puts a good bit of pressure on the strongside defenders to watch backside and check QB
FSUinc, you get my reply?
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
Also, this play would present a ton of problems for a team in a Cov 2.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
I read a convincing article linked on Football Outsiders about the Cov 2 being phased out.
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/01/the-death-of-the-tampa-2/
Interesting.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
Tampa Two to be exact, my bad.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
FO guys sort of shredded it
Plus, Detroit just hired Jim Schwartz from the Tennessee Titans as their new head coach. Last time I checked, the Titans’ defense went after people, so you can forget about playing Tampa 2 in Detroit. In fact, you may never see it again.
The Titans run the most conservative defense in the NFL, in that they never blitz (fewest % of blitzes in years, outside the Colts)
MY issue with this guy is that
obviously he doesn’t know what Tennessee does (get pressure with their front 4 and play a lot of Combo coverages), but on a greater scale,
He needs to note that one problem with any scheme is overexposure. Teams have seen C2Buc for a long time now and they devote a lot of their resources and time to beating the scheme. In fact, the Bucs and Bears (the two who have run this the best) were getting away from it several years ago.
yeah, I saw that.
Titans have a RIDICULOUS front 4.
To an extent, I kind of agree. It will always be around, no doubt, but it just seems like it just isn’t being run as much as it used to.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
cover 2
I didnt think you would run that from a nickle or dime package. If you were to then you would have an open TE every time for the most part. because the LB have to respect the run back side.
Best play for WR
against a cover 2…… Is a post wheel. Obviously dumping Te’s down the middle is very effective (See FSU for the past 10 years). You can still do this with a post wheel. But you put TREMENDOUS pressure on CB’s and Saftey’s with post-wheel.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
Not familiar with that terminology
….always just called it a post wheel. The slot guy runs a wheel (essentially…gets to the sideline and runs a vert) and the Wide-out runs a Post. Also, if you dump somebody in the flat it makes the CB work that much harder. Essentially, it puts pressure on the Corner to get a good jam to give the safety time and the safety has to make a choice. This choice is EASY if he trust is far side safety to pick up the Post.
You with me?
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
yeah, i gotcha
The Switch
The Switch is one of the Shoot mainstays, but the concept has transcended the offense and now chunks of NFL and College playbooks are dedicated to the “switch” – often from coaches who would otherwise show nothing but disdain for the now supposedly discredited offense. But to many coaches, players, and fans, the play is still shrouded in mystery.
The concept is, at core, a two man concept. Two receivers release and “switch”: The outside guys angle inside for 5-6 yards before pushing vertical, while the inside guy runs a “wheel route” under the outside guy, rubs right off of his hip, and then turns up the sideline. That’s when they play gets interesting.
In the original R&S, each receiver had the five delineated options depending on what coverage he saw. They could break it quick on slants, run vertical routes, post routes, curls or in cuts. When it worked it was beautiful. But sometimes, to borrow Yeats’s phrase, “things fall apart.” Or simply it took immense practice time for receivers to get good at running the play.
Indeed, it is simpler to teach this kind of thinking when all of your routes adjust. But it’s not quite so simple if you run curl-flat as your bread and butter play, with no reading, as many teams do. And yet. the play thrives.
http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2008-01-09T193A393A00-05%3A00&max-results=27
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
sorry about that, I usually check my email when I wake up and then when I go to bed.
sent back.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
I like the idea of that play
It would give Ponder a lot of options, and get him out of the pocket so in case no one is open he could run it. He needs to greatly improve on his accuracy this off season though.
Levels
The Levels play that Chris talks about on that site is another play that Fitzgerald ate the Panthers alive with. I think they used it more against Carolina than the deep cross.
DrB--
any chance we can get your take on what Dabo will keep of the Clemson O and what Billy will change/ tweak/ add.
I think
You’ll see mostly the same offense, still two-TE multiple, but with a bit more zone read option, QB keepers and more spread formations. Napier has said it’ll essentially be the same thing as all of the offense has been installed, but alot just wasnt ever called.
The staff is visiting OU and Texas to incorporate a couple of their concepts in the coming months. I figure they’re looking at bringing back the hurry-up-and-wait stuff Brad Scott used here a few years ago, and some of Colt McCoy’s read option plays for Korn.
Defense, I expect to shift to more Robber.
Spiller
going to get the load? Or are they looking for him to share carries?
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
hope so
I think he should get 25 carries or up to 30 touches per game. They have not indicated anything in interviews though.
Jamie Harper will be more of a bruiser, in the mold of Raymond Priester, and he’ll get alot of carries too.
Spiller is one of the special players in our game and
they should get him his 30 touches.
A Raymond Priester reference, nice.
I was shocked that the Panthers didn't play more cover-1 and play more robber subs
to Fits’ side.
I think Chris wanted to highlight that play because he had already written about levels a few weeks back.
I love Cov. 1 Robber
seriously, it’s like my favorite defense of all time.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
On the "FSU defensive rules" series
to add to my earlier:
plays Cov 1 robber (base package)
plays Cov 2 Man (if we have the personal)
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
yep. . . . .granted, I haven't look at it in awhile, but I did not see one thing about Cov 2 or Cov 2 Man.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
I like how Saban basically has an offensive playbook in his defensive one,
when he discussed pattern reading and common patterns.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
98 man I thought we were past that
My bad Your talking about MA right. Hes still running that same old stuff
ok the play at first you show more a 4-3 Def but the game photo
shows more a nickle or one of the lb covering a WR. I could see the LB trying to cover a WR but I think thats realy bad then with the TE in there FSU would be screwed. also you show the LB droping back in the lanes where the pass would go. Im just trying to understand are wee looking at this as FSU on Off or Def and what would/could we do.
ok well I think
Im not a big fan of TE at FSU Im not a big fan of FB ether but I would like to see maybe a wing where the TE would go doing about the same thing. Shotgun play-action zone read. I just think there could be to many reads in a play like that. But I could see Jimbo useing plays that look just like it to set something up with Easterling & PP strong side with Reed far side.
Slot post
Okay, I don’t know if this is a real play or just an ncaa 09 invention, but I think this is a nice easy read for Ponder and I think this play could really work well for us.
Get in a shotgun 4 WR or Shotgun 3 WR 1 TE.
No way this works, but I’ll give it a shot…
I I
I I I I
I I I I
I I I I I
I I I I I
I I I I
I I I I
WR WR WR/TE WR
From left to right: 10 yard comeback, 8 yard post, 7 yard slant-stop, inward fade
Read 1: If the safeties both come up, hit the fade
Read 2: If safeties split and it’s a cover 2, hit the post
Read 3: If the safeties drop and it’s man, hit the comeback
Read 4: If one safety drops and it’s cover 3, hit the slant-stop
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
my goodness that was a disaster
Apparently you can’t string together a bunch of spaces.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 19, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions
The left side of the play looks like the right side of this one (but reversed obviously)
Please re-size…
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 19, 2009 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
We run a variation of this
Switch the “O” wideout to an Out and you have one of our staple plays.
by Bud Elliott on Jan 19, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
From the picture I posted to the play I described?
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 19, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
did you try it
im not getting it would be to much of a cluster. maybe a 10yd post, 8yd hitch, 5-7yr slant with a TE show hands and out to flats with the last wr slant back in.
I'll just try this again
…………..I……………………..I
..II…….I…………………………I
.I.I…..I……………………………I
…I…I………………..I…………..I
…I…I………………I…I…………I
…I…I……………………I……….I
…I…I…………………….I……..I
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 19, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
In a zone, the LBs will have a hard tome covering that slant-stop
He’s basically stopping once he finds the middle between the 2 LBs. If it’s man it doesn’t matter because the ball is going elsewhere.
1 deep safety won’t be able to cover both the post and fade.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 19, 2009 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
10 yard comeback, 8 yard post, 6-7 yard slant-stop and a fade that trends toward the inside
I’ll re-post the reads that I would take.
Read 1: If the safeties both come up, hit the fade
Read 2: If safeties split and it’s a cover 2, hit the post
Read 3: If the safeties drop and it’s man, hit the comeback
Read 4: If one safety drops and it’s cover 3, hit the slant-stop
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 19, 2009 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
The hope is that...
In cover 2 the mike will stay on the slant-stop, opening up the post behind him. In cover 3 the slant-stop route is over before it gets to the will, and the mike plays it as a slant.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 19, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
What would you do against cover-0, 2 man blitz, with blitzers coming from the non-slant side.
If you slide away from the slant, it’s probably a no-throw
hit the comeback
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 20, 2009 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
maybe I'm not reading this right. . . . .but isn't a fade that trends toward the inside a skinny post?
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
. . . .or is it a jab step to the inside and then go outside?
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
I guess
Make it very skinny though… it’s trying to attract the safety in a 2 or 3 deep to open up the post.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 20, 2009 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
I love the bubble and go
throw the bubble screen all night and then fake it and go long. To bad we couldnt make it work all to well I think we should stick with the screens next year too. With the speed I think we can just zone/read and screen our way into the ACCCG.
Those are constraint plays. The more you run them the less effective they are. You also need certain types of coverage to run them which is why we didn’t see them in every game, like Wake.
And the game gets even deeper when
you are having fakes to counteract people cheating against constraint!
by Bud Elliott on Jan 20, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Someone explain this to me
I read the article about the deep cross and I keep hearing about how this is very complex and we can’t do it… why the heck not? It sounds pretty simple – vs man just keep running. Vs zone find the soft spot. Is that really so hard? The smash play sounded much more complex and Jimbo loves this play.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
It just takes familiarity
both the wideout and the qb need to be on the same page. Ponder also doesn’t see the field very well and he’s not all that tall. Can be hard for him to track across.
The smash is a half-field read, primarily outside the hash.
by Bud Elliott on Jan 19, 2009 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
But still...
For the WR, it’s easy as pie.
For the QB, all he has to do once he recognizes the zone is look up to find a hole between the LBs, wait for the WR to get there, and throw it just before he does. He doesn’t even need to know if it’s cover 2 or cover 3 or whatever, as the receiver is still below any deep safeties or corners.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 19, 2009 11:12 PM EST up reply actions
The key is making sure he is still in front of the safeties
It’s just not an easy read for Ponder, with him seeing the rush as he does…
by Bud Elliott on Jan 19, 2009 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
what about EJ, 6'5 they could start to teach him these things.
I dont want him to sit behind Ponder and only learn the Off as much as ponder can. I got a gut feeling that ponder is going to start next year. EJ wont beat him out. He might get some playing time but I dont think he will be ready but when ponder can only do some things but EJ can do more because hes taller, faster, and bigger.
EJ is a different story
Reports say he can make every throw and you are correct in sayin that we can throw a lot of this out if he is the guy.
Im want to see what they plan on doing I think in the ACC
We have the best WR group coming back with Easterling, PP, and Reed with some guys coming in that could just add. With help from the O-line next year Ponder might just have to show us what he has and even suprise us. When the season started Jimbo said one can throw better than we thought the other can run better then we thought. Ponder was the better passer but that was hard to see because he never had time. I think the ACC regresses next year and Miami, and Clemson could be back just as fast as they were out.
I love the fake bubble screen
I know we used it against Chattanooga, but we didn’t execute it anymore. If my memory is right, didn’t we try to use it a couple more times against other teams and it didn’t work?
I think we did agent VT and Maryland but didnt get anything good out of it.
It would help if Serncey could catch an eazy ball. Throw him hard balls and he can get them but give him an egg and he would drop them all day. I loved having 2 guys 6’5,6’6 but what good is size when Ponder cant place the ball for them and they dont use there size to there adv.
Wow....
I love talking strategy, but I was surprised by the amount of comments. Haven’t had all the time to read them, so I don’t know what was discussed completely.
Lets talk about the deep crossing route…
I completely agree with you Uncensored that it isn’t necessary, extremely hard (esp. for the QB) to learn to make the read on this. There is SO much to read. Here is what I see the benefit of a variaton of this though. The Mike linebacker’s first responsibility is run. His first step is always downhill, even if he does have to drop in coverage. Getting a reciever on a consistent basis is going to make the Mike freeze. One, in college you get a wide variety of intelligence at the Mike. This play would be open (give you have a lot more to read than just the Mike). Second, you start getting all 3 linebackers to take steps back instead of downhill. This opens the run. You talk about the Colts. The Colts are excellent at this. Linebackers are so fearful of having something dumped over their heads (Patriots have established this as well) that it opens up the run just a little bit. In college, this would be absolutely deadly. Esp. with the quarterbacks that we have in our system right now (Ponder, EJ).
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
Anybody have a link on pre-snap defensive reads from both the QB and WR perspective? I keep reading about patterns and pattern combinations and always run into (if zone do X if man do Y). It’s fairly straight forward to tell the difference between man and zone during the play and if a player is in motion but what are the keys otherwise? The only information I can find deals with Madden and I’m not sure how accurate that is.
A lot has to do with DB leverege
If a safety is shaded toward the center that hints at a cover 3. If they appear to be more spread out than normal that looks like a cover 2. If the corners look to be a little inside the receivers it might be man with inside leverege or cover 2. If the corners are back it might be cover 3 or cover 4.
It’s all very hard to determine though, because teams can saily disguise what they are doing. In the Pitt-Baltimore game they talked about how on some plays Polamalu starts out in the box (basically ruling out a cover 2) and then sprints back to be one of the deep safeties in a cover 2. In college teams can’t do this well though.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 20, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
To add to this
Cov. 0 = no deep safety = most likely a blitz coming.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
I dont like the Idea of havind not one deep.
I see teams do that and I just wonder when they are going to get burned because its going to happen.
Mofo and Mofc
MOFO= middle of field open (cover 0, 2, arguably 4)
MOFC= Middle of field closed (cover 1 or cover 3)
by Bud Elliott on Jan 20, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
I'm trying to find a good play on words about MOFO but I can't think of one
Something relating to how Mickey must be a bad MOFO because the middle of the field always seems to be open when we are on D.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 20, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
a good play to look at for DEF.
In NCAA under the 4-2-5 there is a man cover-2. This is evil agenst the run becaues you can have 8 in the box agenst the run but also have 2Cb, 2 S, and a Fs playing deep as a rover/headhunter. Should never get burned with this Def. when speed is on your side.
It's a good play
Obviously, still vulnerable to splitting the safeties, and crossing routes underneath, but it’s a solid play.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
