MBB Game 21: UNC 80 at FSU 77
by TrueCubbie on Jan 28, 2009 9:00 AM EST
in FSU Basketball
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PrintNorth Carolina Tar Heels at Florida St. Seminoles, Jan 28, 2009 9:00 PM EST
FSU: 3 ACC:3
Saturday afternoon, we rolled into Virginia and took care of business, defeating the Cavaliers 73-62. Delvidas Dulkys put it well when he said, "I think that's the way it's supposed to be."
Tonight, we take on the Tarheels. Bring it...
N.B. Heartbreak...
I like the fact that at 4:18 to go in the game, we sealed the victory but continued to look for ways to score. Unfortunately, we got a little too agressive and sloppy at time, resulting in late turnovers and easy scores for UVA. On Saturday night, the Noles put up their second best Offensive Efficiency and eFG% of the year. We also did an excellent job on the offensive boards, racking up our second highest OReb% of the year. We held UVA to only 39% eFG%, remember this is a stat weighted for 3 point baskets; they were 17-48 from the floor and only 4-14 from 3 point land. This game was not as close as it seems. Plus, if you look at the free throw advantage they had, it really wasn't that close. UVA has been succesful getting to the line all year; we can't allow that to happen in the upcoming games.
Tonight, we take on the talented team from UNC and it is going to be an uphill battle all the way. However, I think it could be a win-able game if we play a complete basketball game, meaning we don't go on any mental lapses.
UNC came into the season with high expectations. In the early going, things looked good. UNC was beating big time opponents with ease, but their run fell short when they faced Boston College, who then flopped to Harvard, and again to Wake Forest. Two early losses in the ACC is not what any UNC fan expected, nor did the rest of the country. Let's take a look at some scary numbers:
The Tarheels have scored over 100 points 5 times already this season. The last time we did it was against Campbell in 2006. Their two losses were by a total of 10 points. They already have huge win over Kentucky, Notre Dame, Michigan St, Miami and Clemson. They beat UVA 83-61 just as a reference...and that was on the road as well.
| Sat Nov 15 | (234) Pennsylvania | W, 86-71 | 75 | Home | 1-0 | ||
| Tue Nov 18 | (20) Kentucky | W, 77-58 | 74 | Home | 2-0 | ||
| Fri Nov 21 | (194) UC Santa Barbara | W, 84-67 | 74 | Away | 3-0 | ||
| Mon Nov 24 | (NR) Chaminade | W, 115-70 | 81 | Neutral | 4-0 | ||
| Tue Nov 25 | (140) Oregon | W, 98-69 | 85 | Neutral | 5-0 | ||
| Wed Nov 26 | (48) Notre Dame | W, 102-87 | 73 | Neutral | 6-0 | ||
| Sun Nov 30 | (282) NC Asheville | W, 116-48 | 83 | Home | 7-0 | ||
| Wed Dec 3 | (21) Michigan St. | W, 98-63 | 83 | Semi-Away | 8-0 | ||
| Sat Dec 13 | (67) Oral Roberts | W, 100-84 | 88 | Home | 9-0 | ||
| Thu Dec 18 | (151) Evansville | W, 91-73 | 82 | Home | 10-0 | ||
| Sat Dec 20 | (243) Valparaiso | W, 85-63 | 72 | Neutral | 11-0 | ||
| Sun Dec 28 | (154) Rutgers | W, 97-75 | 75 | Home | 12-0 | ||
| Wed Dec 31 | (114) Nevada | W, 84-61 | 71 | Away | 13-0 | ||
| Sun Jan 4 | (81) Boston College | L, 85-78 | 75 | Home | 13-1 | 0-1 | |
| Wed Jan 7 | (174) College of Charleston | W, 108-70 | 84 | Home | 14-1 | ||
| Sun Jan 11 | (12) Wake Forest | L, 92-89 | 89 | Away | 14-2 | 0-2 | |
| Thu Jan 15 | (96) Virginia | W, 83-61 | 74 | Away | 15-2 | 1-2 | |
| Sat Jan 17 | (34) Miami FL | W, 82-65 | 73 | Home | 16-2 | 2-2 | |
| Wed Jan 21 | (22) Clemson | W, 94-70 | 77 | Home | 17-2 | 3-2 |
This is a solid early season schedule. In fact, UNC has the 26th most difficult schedule in the country according to Ken Pomeroy. This is an aggressive basketball team that likes to attack the basket and forces you to try and keep up with them. Our style is completely different. Dave Leitao, the UVA coach, said that the way we play basketball is that we "systematically and methodically wear you down. I thought they worse us down physically and mentally."
How do we do that? We force teams to play basketball, meaning we force them to settle into offenses and try to run specific sets. We try to prevent teams from getting early quick looks at the basket; we force them into bad shots and turnovers. We challenge shots. UNC likes to take the ball from you and run or if you miss, the ball is going up the court extremely fast. Take a look at the differences in possessions per game:
Huge difference between the teams and it shows in each of their tempos: 75.9 for UNC and 68.3 for us. That is an average of 7 possessions per game and a minimum of 14 points differential. Clearly, these stats do not work when you actually play the game, think about it...the possessions should be equal, plus or minus 1 or 2 depending on the beginning or end of the half. So...who wins this battle? I think we do. We did it to Duke, slowing them down a ton, forcing them to play our game. However, Duke can generate turnovers, UNC doesn't. They run the ball off your missed shots. Look at their turnover percentage on defense:
Raw Efficiency : 117.6 ( 1) 89.8 ( 18)
Adj Efficiency : 120.4 ( 2) 86.7 ( 12)
Effective FG% : 53.5 ( 34) 44.3 ( 32)
Turnover Pct. : 17.1 ( 13) 21.8 (117)
Off. Rebound% : 39.4 ( 19) 30.6 ( 84)
Free Throw Rate: 40.7 ( 65) 27.3 ( 25)
3-Point FG% : 37.0 ( 57) 31.5 ( 62)
2-Point FG% : 52.8 ( 31) 42.9 ( 36)
Free Throw Pct.: 75.2 ( 18) 69.2 (199)
Block Pct. : 9.4 (208) 14.1 ( 21)
Steal Pct. : 10.0 (188) 11.7 ( 59)
3PA/FGA : 27.7 (288) 32.5 (168)
A/FGM : 61.1 ( 39) 52.4 (122)
They force turnovers on 21.8% of their opponents possessions, this is above national average. We turn the ball over about in in every 4 possessions and have been improving. Duke creates turnovers on 24.5% of their opponents possessions. Subtle, but important difference.
In this graph, you would say TC, you're crazy, they generate the same number of turnovers per game. Look at it when you compare the possession, Duke is forcing teams to fewer possessions, thus the significance of the Turnover percentage.
Where do we sit?
Crappy graphs...looks at the three turnovers percentages on the same graph:
Again, subtle, but important when playing elite teams. Think about games that come down to 1 or two possessions. This is where those differences can be generated. Clearly, this is just one variable that determines the out come of a game, and is the converse of one of Ken Pomeroy's Four Factors
UNC does a lot of things extremely well and this is going to be a battle from start to finish. They shoot the ball extremely well, they clean up the glass and they don' turn the ball over. They do allow you to block shots and steal the ball on them. Interesting...we are one of the best shot blocking teams in the country and Toney Douglas is an absolute thief. The crazy thing is that of their 5 starters, who essentially play most of the game now (they didn't in OOC play), their highest turnover percentage is 15.8% by Danny Green, who is a guard/foward.
Size is one area that UNC has been criticized for this year. Their tallest starter is Hansbrough at 6'9. The tallest player on their team is Ed Davis, a 6'10 Freshman. They rank 74th overall in average height at 77.2". Our average height is 79". Their effective heighter is +1.9 inches, meaning they play bigger than expected. Guess, what we play at +5" in effective height. Connecticut is number 1 and is closely followed by Wake. Advantage us...sort of. Can Alabi hang with Hansbrough...probably not in a man to man defense. If Alabi is in the game, look for us to sit in some form of zone, likely a 1-3-1 due to the athleticism of our wing players. However, Hamilton loves to rely on man to man pressure. Our 7-footer won't be able to keep up with UNC for long periods of time. Echefu, Reid and Demercy will have to take on the burden of keeping up with their "big men."
So how did Wake and BC beat UNC? They challenged shots and held them to their lowest eFG% of the year. However, Wake chose to run with UNC, allowing for a high paced game, while BC slowed them down and allowed a better shooting percentage. Wake and BC also shot lights out in those two games. We can slow UNC down. We can force them to take bad shots and challenge every shot. Our team is all about hustle. Unfortunately, we take a lot of bad shots ourselves and it is unlikely that we will shoot over 50% against them, which is what Wake AND BC did. Other teams have done it against UNC this year, but didn't have quite the success on the defensive end, allowing UNC to score easy baskets in transition. In order to be successful, we must make quick decisions about getting back as shots are being made. Our perimiter players need to make the decsion about crashing the boards versus staying with their man or any UNC player who breaks down the court on the jump shot. If Toney puts up a long three, the rebound will be a long one and the players on the opposite side of the court must recognize whether the ball is likely going in or going to rebound to their side off a shot that was too long or go back to Toney on a shot that may have been to short. Anything that looks in or short, they should seriously consider turning and running up the court. If they don't, they will be looking at the back of jerseys all night.
Let's take a look at our numbers:
Raw Efficiency : 99.7 (185) 91.3 ( 26)
Adj Efficiency : 101.8 (143) 88.1 ( 18)
Effective FG% : 48.6 (181) 43.8 ( 25)
Turnover Pct. : 23.8 (305) 23.3 ( 42)
Off. Rebound% : 37.4 ( 44) 34.7 (235)
Free Throw Rate: 42.4 ( 47) 36.1 (166)
3-Point FG% : 33.4 (188) 32.3 ( 91)
2-Point FG% : 47.8 (173) 41.1 ( 16)
Free Throw Pct.: 70.7 (101) 65.5 ( 55)
Block Pct. : 7.1 ( 66) 17.0 ( 6)
Steal Pct. : 10.4 (220) 12.9 ( 20)
3PA/FGA : 33.0 (161) 35.8 (262)
A/FGM : 52.9 (199) 46.6 ( 24)
I won't continue to harp on the turnovers...but it is getting ridiculous. Worst in the ACC, one of the worst in the country. We have to protect the ball against UNC or it will continue to be a long night. Fortunately, we cause as many turnovers as we allow. However, we don't take advantage of the opportunities of the transition game. We have discussed this before. We don't push the basketball, yet we appear rushed. To me, that is the inexperience kicking in. Fortunately, we have already played Duke at home so playing a big opponent at home is not an unfamiliar experience for our team. I disagree with our friends at Carolina March in that this will not be as easy a game as he thinks it will be. We may not see a lot of Alabi tonight but look for our guards to play the game of their lives to keep us in it. TD has to show that he is an all-ACC candidate.
The man said it himself. FSU has to limit the transition game and get back on defense. We have the athelticism and talent to keep up with this team. UNC does not do well when they are forced to play in an offensive set; it isn't in their comfort zone. We take teams out of the comfort zones. Could we beat UNC? Yes. Wake and BC have shown that it is possible. It will take a amazing team effort of 40 minutes of hustle and concentration.
Here are the likely starting line ups (taken from the FSU Athletic Site):
FSU:
F #41 Uche Echefu (7.7 ppg, 4.7 rpg; 14 pts and 3 rebs vs. North Carolina, March 4, 2008)
C #32 Solomon Alabi (7.4 ppg, 2.0 bpg; First career game vs. North Carolina)
G #22 Derwin Kitchen (7.7 ppg, 3.9 rpg; First career game vs. North Carolina)
G #23 Toney Douglas (19.6 ppg, 2.1 spg; 18 pts and 3 stls vs. North Carolina, March 14, 2008)
UNC:
F #21 Deon Thompson (12.2 ppg, 6.6 rpg; 11 pts and 5 rebs vs. Florida State, Feb. 3, 2008)
F #50 Tyler Hansbrough (22.7 ppg, 7.9 rpg; 22 pts and 21 rebs vs. Florida State, Feb. 23, 2008)
G #5 Ty Lawson (14.9 ppg, 6.7 rpg; 14 pts and 8 asts vs. Florida State, March 9, 2007)
G #22 Wayne Ellington (14.0 ppg, 4.2 rpg; 19 pts and 5 rebs vs. Florida State, March 14, 2008
This should be an outstanding game. It should be an absolute dog fight and I think it will be closer than most people think. We cannot allow the runs to occur and we have to limit Hansbrough's touches, not only for the points he scores but for the fouls he generates, 9.2 for every 40 minutes of game play...that is number one in the country. It's up to you to decide if those are legit fouls or not.
On the offensive end, UNC boasts having 4 of the top 100 players in offensive rating: Hansbrough (30) Lawson (3) Ellington (89) and Green (21). The have 2 players in the top 100 in eFG%: Lawson an Green. Lawson is 13th in the country in Assist rate. And all 5 of their starters are in the top 500 in TO rate. We don't have a single player in the top 500 in turnover rate. Only Toney Douglas ranks in the top 500 in ORtg and is the only player in the team with a rating over 110. Outside of their 5 starters, Ed Davis is their only significnat contributor off the bench. His specialty: rebounding and blocking shots. He is their tallest player, but only plays about 12 minutes per game, usually to spell Hansbrough. This is the time for Hamilton's defense to shine.
What are your thoughts on the game?
The game will be televised on Raycom and it can either be found here or here for radio feeds.
Random fact of the day: The Tucker Center cost 33.8 million dollars to build.
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I'm stoked to be going to this game. Hopefully we don't allow UNC to use their transition offense
I would love to see us defeat UNC, since my dad has always been a huge Tarheel fan (growing up in NC). However, I think if we lose by less than 10, I would consider it a moral victory
If we could pull it off I would be happy
Then I could tell my wife ha not only did we beat NCST but we beat UNC also. Then she couldnt get me crap about B-ball anymore.
Maybe the best yet
Any thought to giving Hansboro his and making sure the others don’t get hot?
This should be an outstanding game. It should be an absolute dog fight and I think it will be closer than most people think. We cannot allow the runs to occur and we have to limit Hansbrough’s touches, not only for the points he scores but for the fouls he generates, 9.2 for every 40 minutes of game play…that is number one in the country. It’s up to you to decide if those are legit fouls or not.
Those fouls are insane. I totally agree with the “get back now” comment. Remember how Louisville finally got burned last year (crashing the glass too hard)
Let's do this.
I see the defensive glass as one of our deficiencies. We can’t give up too many second-chance points to UNC, or there’s no hope.
I can already see myself getting very angry tonight at the refs...
this isn’t the NBA and last time i checked Tyler Hansborough is not Lebron James or Kobe Bryant, two people who you would expect to get fouls called their way. sorry, it just always bothers me to see that in college basketball.
i’ll say that i like our chances tonight, at least more than i liked our chances against Duke because of our style of defense. You made a great point TC that we can force UNC out of their comfort zone by making them run their half court offense. Duke is a great team in the half court and will wear you down. I actually think that we are a lot like UNC in many ways but they have more talent to work with. I actually wish we’d play their style of basketball more as i think it suits our players but oh well. Defensively i’m not afraid of us playing man to man until they show that they can break it down. what scares me about playing a 1-3-1 is the back door. whoever is playing the baseline is going to be tempted to stay with hansborough wherever he goes, if they get sucked to one side or another watch out.
I think offensively we will be able to have a little more success than we saw against Duke just based on the difference in styles between the two. But we HAVE TO limit our turnovers or this might get ugly. Turnovers lead to fast breaks and we don’t want them get out and run.
Assuming we get the TO's under control tonight...
and assuming we play the ferocious D we’ve been accustomed to lately, then factoring in our height advantage, doesn’t this game come down to whether we A) hit a decent % from the field, and B) get respected enough by the refs in order to get to the line? Unfortunately, I haven’t seen either of those things happen much this year, but if the home crowd really brings it, crazier things have happened…
Those, however,
are huge assumptions.
We are one of the worst ball handling teams in America and we never rebound the ball on the defensive end.
You’re right, but we haven’t done those two things this year.
there is a link on channelsurfing.net
I think you have to download something to play it, but it isn’t a big deal
Game is on Raycom/ gameplan. See very bottom of Truceubbie's deal.
Local ACC Area ACC Station Affiliate AKA Station Website (for more info)
NORTH/SOUTH CAROLINA
Charlotte, NC WJZY-TV CW The CW 46 www.wjzy.com
Raleigh/Durham/Fay, NC WRAL-TV CBS WRAL TV 5 www.wral.com
Greenville/Spart/Ash, SC/NC WMYA-TV My TV My 40 www.my40.tv
Greensboro/Winston-Salem, NC WMYV-TV My TV My 48 www.my48.tv
Columbia, SC WKTC-TV My TV My 63 www.wktctv.com/headerbnew.swf
Charleston, SC WMMP-TV My TV My TV Charleston www.mytvcharleston.com
Greenville/New Bern/Wash, NC WCTI-TV ABC News Channel 12 www.wcti12.com
Myrtle Beach/Florence, SC WWMB-TV CW CW TV 21 www.carolinalive.com
Wilmington, NC WILM-TV CBS CBS 10 www.wilm-tv.com
MID-ATLANTIC
Washington, DC WDCA-TV My TV My 20 www.wdca.com
Baltimore, MD WNUV-TV CW CW Baltimore www.cwbaltimore.com
Norfolk/Portsmouth, VA WTVZ-TV My TV My TVZ www.wtvz33.com
Richmond/Petersburg, VA WTVR-TV CBS CBS 6 www.wtvr.com
Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA WWCW-TV CW The CW 5 www.cw5va.com
Salisbury, MD WRDE-DT My TV My RTN 9 -
Harrisonburg, VA WHSV-DT My TV My Valley www.whsv.com
Charlottesville, VA WVIR-TV NBC NBC 29 www.nbc29.com
GEORGIA
Atlanta, GA WATL-TV My TV My ATL TV www.myatltv.com
Savannah, GA WGSA-TV CW CW 13 www.wgsa.tv
Columbus, GA WLTZ-TV NBC NBC 38 www.wltz.com
Albany, GA WSWG-DT My TV WSWG-DT2 www.wswgtv.com
FLORIDA
Miami/Ft. Lauderdale, FL WBFS-TV My TV My 33 www.cbs4.com/wbfs
Orlando/Melbourne/Daytona, FL WRBW-TV My TV My 65 www.wrbw.com
Jacksonville, FL WAWS-DT My TV My TV JAX www.mytvjax.com
Tallahassee, FL WCTV-DT2 My TV – www.wctv.tv
Panama City, FL WBIF-TV IND RTN 51 -
NEW ENGLAND
Portland/Auburn, ME WPME-TV My TV TV 35 www.ourmaine.com
ESPN
http://www.justin.tv/vtphreak4evr
Showing Duke/WF game right now, but I am pretty sure he is going to broadcast FSU/UNC next.
channelsurfing just links to the link I posted above
by thirdcoastnole on Jan 28, 2009 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
Is anyone else looking forward to Demercy matching up with Hansbrough?
If the refs don’t call all of Demercy’s blocks “fouls”, I think it could be exciting. Hopefully he could pick up a few offensive rebounds on our side, but I don’t expect to see him with the ball if Hans is near him.
that would be fun
Unfortunately, I don’t expect him to be crushed tonight. I would love to see someone battle with him though.
Unfortunately, with the way he gets the calls, no one can battle with him. You touch him and the whistle blows.
It may be a revolving door of people covering Hansbrough, which is a good thing for us. we have the depth to keep throwing fresh legs at him. Look for Singleton, Demercy, Echefu, Reid, Alabi (not as much) to go after him. I look forward to seeing who they match Hansbrough up on defense. Singleton is too quick for him on the wing and Alabi is to big for him in the post. Should be good…
I cannot wait until Tyler Hansborough suits up in his first NBA game.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
My prediction
NC 70-66, Reid will foul out with at least 5 min. to go. I am greatly afraid of us getting into foul trouble this game.
GO SEMINOLES!
what happened, I missed it.
TIA.
Our goal is simple: Best in the land
Kill a fly with an axe -- Mickey Andrews
Looked like we were getting winded early
Do you think we can hang at their pace? We’re certainly not used to it.
by thirdcoastnole on Jan 28, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
Man ESPN360 is lagging about 1 minute behind you guys.
Sucks because you tell me what’s going to happen then it happens on the screen.
WOWOWOW Guys... Hansborough looks 12 years old and shocked
Like when you heard the garage door open and your parents were coming home as you looked at porn and the computer wouldn’t shut down
The best part of watching online is listening to Gene on the radio.
No in depth analysis, but he does a great job and you gotta love the home broadcast.
We have to rebound better...they are killing us underneath on their offensive boards. The defensive intensity slowed. They are getting a lot of open looks.
Even though we are double teaming a lot, we are late to switch to cover the open man. Look at their wings positions, they are open all the time. I liked the offensive pace we had at the beginnig. Lets hope they slow down on the 3 point shooting…too bad they love it.
UNC has 12 offensive rebounds on 23 missed shots. If we boxed out at ALL, we're winning.
They had the ball back on half of their misses?!!
but would they be at the line if they didn't get all those 2nd chances?
Ugh, how can we not box out at all.
by Bud Elliott on Jan 28, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
Didn't catch the whole 1st half
I was flipping back and forth between Lost, but how did we get down by so much so quickly? We were looking great to start the game, and we are down 11 now.
turnovers and rebounds...
just scroll up
by TBfisherman on Jan 28, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
What channel is this on in Tallahassee?
I could swear Raycom was channel 7 but there’s something else playing on it.
It doesn't, I'm watching it from justin.tv
I just can’t believe there’s no TV in tallahassee for this. I mean there’s digital but whatever.
Yeah pretty weak
Should be on FSN or sunshine at least
Simple
if the opposition crashes the glass and causes turnovers, they will beat us.
Miami crashed glass hard and won. Duke created turnovers. UNC glass AND turnovers.
Let’s hope we play a great shooting team in the tourney
TC... opposing teams shooting ability is
irrelevant, correct? Because they just get so many more attempts?
Yup. It can be totally skewed by the type of shots. If you try three put backs in a row and miss all three, that looks bad on paper, but it's good for your offense during the game.
It all has to be taken in context. It’s nice to see shooting percentage, but look at how a team plays their offense to help you determing teh importance of it for each game.
watch him on offense-
the last play, he was just standing in the corner. Just a freshman though.
by TBfisherman on Jan 28, 2009 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
we are getting lots of second chances
we just aren’t making them
by TBfisherman on Jan 28, 2009 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
I was thinking the same thing...
…but didn’t somebody say we usually start the 2nd half slow?
looks OK tonight.
CALL!
I would be suprised if the game is not at least tied again before the 10:00 mark.
by TBfisherman on Jan 28, 2009 9:02 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions 0 recs
lol- I was keeping an eye on it
Call me surprised. It was close though.
by TBfisherman on Jan 28, 2009 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
if you can’t take the heat, get out of the KITCHEN?
haha, that was lame but I had to
by thirdcoastnole on Jan 28, 2009 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
BOX OUT!
NC 6:03
Ty Lawson made Floating Jump Shot (14 PTS)
NC 6:06
Offensive Rebound by Ty Lawson
NC 6:11
Deon Thompson missed Tip-in
NC 6:12
Offensive Rebound by Deon Thompson
NC 6:15
Danny Green missed 3-pt. Jump Shot
They are just standing under the backboard.
We stand in front of the rim. Everyone get their own spot.
by TBfisherman on Jan 28, 2009 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
YESSS!
FLST 2:22
Defensive Rebound by Solomon Alabi (7 Reb)
NC 2:26
Tyler Hansbrough missed Layup
NC 2:35
Offensive Rebound by Tyler Hansbrough
NC 2:35
Danny Green missed 2nd of 2 Free Throws
NC 2:35
Danny Green made 1st of 2 Free Throws
of course as soon as I click the link
I see a terrible pass/ steal and foul.
I might close the link.
ok folks, I apologize, I watched them score 5 points and us none
in a matter of a minute.
I might not watch another game. I feel like a jinx
Man that is unbelieveable.
Terrible late game execution by our offense. We had Toney isolated on Hansbrough and the best we can get is 2 dumb 3 point attempts.
Ham... shakes head
3pt lead… 2:01 left… if ever there was time for Leonard to manage the game at the end…
Tomahawk Nation: No-Holds-Barred Nole Analysis
by FSUncensored on Jan 28, 2009 10:10 PM CST reply reply actions actions 0 recs
My solution
We need to hire an assistant who can handle the set plays better. I don’t think Ham is the “mastermind” on offense. He can handle the defense and I think he is willing to let the assistants coach. I think Hamilton has earned his keep in defense and recruiting.
by TBfisherman on Jan 28, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
Wow
that’s ACC basketball. We will have to settle for the “moral vicory” Poor final possesion again by the way.
A reliable second scorer would do wonders for this team.
by Legal_Seminole on Jan 28, 2009 11:20 PM EST reply actions
We can blame lots of things, but points in the 1st half matter just like pts in the 2nd half.
They scored 18 or so on putbacks in the 1st half
i wonder what will be leading sportscenter tonight.
If this does not resonate with the selection committee, they should all be thrown in jail.
Just saw the highlight on espnews
We didn’t even come close to defending that last shot
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
That last offensive possession for FSU was a complete failure.
We had the game won at 2 min and absolutely blew it. Kitchen threw the ball away, then made a weak foul for a 3-pt play. And they didn’t impeded the inbounds pass at all!
Terrible.
This was a game we should have won
There are no moral victories. We need 8 wins in the ACC, every loss hurts our chances considerably.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
I think close losses count when it comes to the selection commitee...
granted, we need to be in consideraion.
by TBfisherman on Jan 28, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think UNC will be that much of a quality "loss"
They are overrated and will lose a few more games. I think they’ll be a 2 or 3 seed.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 28, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
It's easy to be overrated when you're expected to be the first undefeated team since '76 Indiana
They are a very good, talented team with a ton of depth
by basbalstr101 on Jan 29, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
Actually, watching the "experts" on ESPN this afternoon, they still painted UNC as the best team in the ACC.
So while I hate the term quality loss, I think it will be one.
too bad we didnt have a timeout at the end
to set up our D. we should have put some kind of press on to slow the ball carrier.i blame that 100% on hamilton.
Nothing is more frustrating to me than
Watching the other team shoot free throws. I was following the end of the game on my phone and every time I refreshed all I saw was UNC making free throws. Make them earn the points, don’t give them free ones! And a 3-point play??
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
it happened against Duke as well and i made the same point
we put teams in the bonus so early in games that we just give away free points. it hurts…
I thought we had the game won
I am really not one for moral victories, but we did play well. We will see how they respond from this.
I will admit this, the pieces are certainly in place but I can not say the same about the coaching that continuing to be disappointing. At this point it is not about Xs and Os but having someone who can inspire and motivation these boys toward victory against tough competition.
by Legal_Seminole on Jan 28, 2009 11:26 PM EST reply actions
We have played inspired ball against ACC comp during all of Ham's time here
How can you say tonight was uninspired?
by TBfisherman on Jan 28, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
Also disagree
we’ve played hard every ACC game
put the guys into a better position to win.
by Bud Elliott on Jan 28, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
Perhaps I need to be more clear we need a coach who inspires them to victory and not to moral ones.
by Legal_Seminole on Jan 28, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
I think the use of the word "inspires" detracts from your point
by Bud Elliott on Jan 28, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe so, but it doesn’t change the feeling that this team has gone as far as it can good with Coach Ham. I will concede that we have improved this season and hope to be eating my words come tournament time.
by Legal_Seminole on Jan 28, 2009 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
I have no doubt we've reached
the point where Ham won’t bring is MUCH further.
by Bud Elliott on Jan 28, 2009 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
I think Ham's ceiling is a double digit seed birth
And maybe a 2nd round appearance. But that’s it.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 28, 2009 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
I would be happy with that right now.
It has been a long time.
by TBfisherman on Jan 28, 2009 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
New assistant!
I will continue to plug this idea, but I am unqualified to make an in depth argument for it. It just seems like it would work.
by TBfisherman on Jan 28, 2009 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
No. He'll be able to turn around to our AD and say look at all the talent I brought here. I'm recruiting kids from all over the country.
I beat Duke or UNC once a year or so. We get players to the NBA. What’s wrong with that?
Now, in my opinion….(TC speaking now) This team has not nor will likely not reach its full potential under Ham alone. Add the support and we’re there.
When was the last time we beat Duke or UNC?
Duke in 2006 and 2007. When Al Thornton was the Man Child.
UNC in 2004. I repeat, we have not beaten UNC since 2004. Roy Williams lost his first game to us and hasn’t since then.
Hamilton was able to do what all bad (or lesser respected) teams are able to do: shock somebody on a bad night. Since they’ve begun to take us seriously, they’ve owned us.
So Hamilton’s platform would have to be “Back when we were garbage, we surprised some people.”
I have always heard rumors that Hamilton doesn't "coach" the practices.
If this is true, nothing would change for Hamilton, if we had a different assistant to do the coaching that he is already not doing.
by TBfisherman on Jan 28, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
I think we all can agree with what you are saying
That Leonard is missing “it”
It’s just that the first time you said it it sounded like you meant the team doesn’t play hard enough, which isn’t true.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 28, 2009 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
Hamilton gets the pieces we need to be competitive. He is an absolutely effective defensive coach(except for the inbounds play aside)
He needs an assistant coach who can be more offensive minded to balance his defensive interest. Without Hamilton, we don’t get Douglas to transfer. Without Hamilton, we don’t get Singleton, Gibson, Kitchen, Dulkys or Michael Snaer next year.
I agree. We are reaching an asymtope in tournament play and season play. But as much as I question some of his decsisions, we’re not in this game without Hamilton. We just need a coach to balance it all out.
What top coach would want to come here? We play in a terrible facility, the fans aren’t great, and the good fans we do have are not showcased when we do get a full student crowd.
Hamilton is not the best coach in the world to be sure, but he is one helluva recruiter. What if we bring in someone who is a slight upgrade at H.C. but is nowhere near as good at recruiting. I think that equals a step down.
This is one of those times where I will ask for possible alternatives that are realistic in projecting for us I.E. not Roy Williams leaving UNC kind of stuff. So yeah, he isnt the best, but what makes you think we could bring in the best. Even Miami has an on campus arena.
I left out a word in my post...
We need an assistant coach to balance him out. Right now, I think Hamilton is going to be here for a while and I don’t necessarily think that is a bad thing. A couple of little adjustments and we’ll be fine.
agreed
to come back from down 13 against a team like that takes some inspiration in my opinion. we just always seem to have a knack to never finish close games. i never have confidence in our ability to seal a win
If I could edit my post I would reword it to avoid the confusion. I would not be surprised if the next coach takes this team to the next level.
by Legal_Seminole on Jan 28, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
Only thing that matters about this game is the L.
Yes, we showed a lot of heart and came back. We had a chance to nearly punch a ticket to the dance, and we came up short. Regardless of all of this, an ACC loss hurts.
by thirdcoastnole on Jan 28, 2009 11:26 PM EST reply actions
a good victory for UNC, duh!
they already showed the winning shot on Sportscenter and were all about UNC. FSU will get no love or attention from the media for tonight.
by thirdcoastnole on Jan 28, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
Why would we get any attention?
If we want ESPN to make a big deal out of us maybe we should try beating a good team.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 28, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
sad part is...
i think we would have coasted to a win in overtime. hansborough and green would have both fouled out. we had kept lawson in check most of the game. my heart sank watching that shot…
Hansbrough fouled out
The ref just didn’t see it
by TBfisherman on Jan 28, 2009 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
when they do call a foul on him...
he has the look of a kid whose girlfriend just gave birth to what he thought was his kid but when it came out it was a completely different race….
Which of these 3 teams is best?
UNC, Duke and Pitt
I’d rank them Pitt, Duke and then UNC, but Wake is better than all 3 of them.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
Screw moral victories.
Moral victories go out the window when you’re on the bubble. Moral victories count for nothing when your idiotic coach hasn’t put together a single positive play in the final minutes of any game he’s coached in 6 years.
Forget this game. We need to win 6 of our next 10. We’ll have a 9-7 ACC record, a positive winning percentage in our final ten, and good out of conference resume. THAT will get us in to the tournament, not moral victories.
Given his record of coming up short, I think we should modify his name from Recruiter Hamilton to Moral Victory Hamilton.
I agree
Moral victories are for a 16 seed almost beating a 1 seed. Not for a team the caliber of FSU.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
by tdchrisdavis on Jan 28, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
Ham is faulting the last 7:00 of the first half for the loss.
Good point. I would also credit the last 2:00.
now crediting Reid on defense...
losing credibility
by TBfisherman on Jan 28, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with him.
We lose this when we didn’t take advantage of a no green no hansborough lineup and gave up what, TEN offensive boards in a 7 minute stretch?
by Bud Elliott on Jan 28, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
On a happier note...
how about that first 2 minutes of the game where it actually looked like we finally took all the pieces of our offensive puzzle and were able to fit them together. i believe the words out of my mouth were “holy s*&^ what the hell was that?”
that back door cut for a layup? hamilton must have been taking notes during the northwestern game.
Just saw the turnover that led to the Danny Green 3 pt play
That was HORRIBLE.
Barely 1 minute left up 3 and we throw THAT pass? If you’re gonna foul at the end, MAKE SURE HE DOESN’T MAKE THE SHOT!!!
My goodness.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
On a better note, I like the new espn college basketball gameday ads
The rock chalk jayhawk one is funny, as is the film session.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
do we need an defensive rebounding tracker?
It’s a trend… look over last 4 years…
by Bud Elliott on Jan 28, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
ok... here it is...
http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2009/01/28/north-carolina-80-florida-state-77
we shot a ton better
we turned them over 27% of time, we turnied it over 24%
they got rebounds on FIFTY % of their missed shots. 50. FIFTY!!!!!!!!! FIFTY! HALF? !
I became a FSU basketball fan as a freshman in 1999.
We were really bad back then. (I am sure some of you have been fans much longer) We were the laughing stock of the 9 team league. We have improved every year since Ham has gotten here. I remember when Michael Joiner and Richardson were out prized All-Americans. Yes, the improvement has slowed, but we are still making progress. I don’t think we “owe” it to Hamilton to keep him here if we hit a stalemate, but I am willing to let him work with what he has brought us to a little longer. The situation reminds me of the Bucs with Toney Dungy (defense) and Jon Gruden (offense). Gruden won a Superbowl with Dungy’s players and couldn’t sustain anything after that. Everyone credits Dungy with the Super Bowl and regrets giving him the boot. Be careful what you wish for, because the grass is always greener.
I feel the same way despite the outbursts.
He doesn’t rub me like Jeff did
by Bud Elliott on Jan 28, 2009 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
I think I have a pretty level head about it though.
I admit he has weaknesses but I think they can be overcome for the time being, by the talent he continues to bring in. The best argument for replacing him, is by looking at where he has topped out at other schools. I just try to kee in mind that there are only 10-15 perinneal teams in the tourney and we shouldn’t expect to be one of them YET. Baby steps. We are getting better in a very tough conference.
by TBfisherman on Jan 29, 2009 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
Translate to the football teams in our conference....
There are schools that happen to have a football team (Duke) and then there are the elite teams (FSU, Miami, Vtech etc…). We are not a basketball school and I kind of equate us to the likes of a UNC this year. They won a couple of big games, but they we all knew that wouldn’t make it to the ACCCG. They were fun to watch. Even Georgia Tech.
We have talent and we are getting better. But I think you said it exactly right. We are trying to climb to the top of the toughest conference in the country with the perinneal elite teams in the country and it is a huge challenge. I’m dissapointed by the loss tonight because there were a few things we could have done, minor adjustments, that would have won this game. But, we’re not going to be a #1 seed any time soon. I just hope this motivates our team, makes them hungrier and gives them cofidence that they can play with the best and beat them as well.
Last thing before surgery
we need to be 5-5. If we’re 4-6, we’ve messed up big. 5-5 is right on course.
5-5 means we need to pull 3 wins from:
Wed Feb 18 (42) Miami FL W, 67-65 67 58% Home
Sat Feb 21 (61) Virginia Tech L, 66-63 67 37% Away
Tue Feb 24 (69) Boston College L, 70-68 69 40% Away
Sat Feb 28 (22) Clemson L, 69-67 71 44% Home
Tue Mar 3 (1) Duke L, 75-56 70 4% Away
Sun Mar 8 (61) Virginia Tech W, 66-62 67 68% Home
and we can do that.
by Bud Elliott on Jan 29, 2009 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
Just got in from the game. Unbelievable last play. Where was the D?
The entire student section was ready to run onto the court before UNC had the ball with 3 seconds left. By far the most grit I’ve seen from this team all year; I think we were down 12 or 13 and came back to have a 3 point advantage. Tough, tough loss.
The hidden game...
very tough loss
check this out: http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2009/01/28/north-carolina-80-florida-state-77
they missed 34 shots and grabbed TWENTYONE offensive rebounds. Thats insane.
by Bud Elliott on Jan 29, 2009 12:23 AM EST up reply actions
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