A Real Statistical Analysis of Jimbo Fisher v. Jeff Bowden: A Response to Andrew Carter's Article
What happens when a Statistician tries to be a comedian on a Florida State blog?
What happens when he lets other guys do the stats and just tries to make funny posts?
What happens when he doesn't hold other FSU writers to a higher level of statistical analysis and lets dumb posts go?
This happens. (I should clarify that Andrew Carter has been a good beat writer, has a good sense of humor, and generally does good work)
Inside this story, you find the reaction of TomahawkNation's premier Statistician-turned-comedian to this obvious well-researched and well thought-out article from our friend Andrew Carter.
My initial reaction?

Mr. Carter should probably leave the statistics to the statisticians. But hey, if he can pass himself off as a Stat guy, I guess I can pretend to be a real writer. So what would happen if I analyzed his writing line by line, FJM style?
"Florida State fans greeted Jeff Bowden’s resignation during the 2006 season with both relief and jubilation."
I also bought a pony. It died. Thanks for reminding me Andrew. Jerk.
I believe it was also greeted by a temper tantrum from a really old head coach.
"It was Bowden, the former Seminoles offensive coordinator, who’d received the brunt of blame from fans and media for the Seminoles’ decline from dominance earlier this decade. And his departure at the end of the ’06 season – a departure that led the arrival of almost an entirely new offensive coaching staff – was supposed to solve the Seminoles’ problems."
I'm hooked Andrew. This article looks like it's going to be good. Nothing scary about this one. Nope. Nope. Nope.
"Or so many thought."
Ok, that's just a well-constructed sentence right there.
This is the point in the ride where Andrew takes us off the main track down the "spooky" trail. The Disney puppets are yelling at you to turn back, AC!! Listen to them!!!
"Since Jimbo Fisher’s arrival in January 2007, the Seminoles’ offensive has improved. But has it improved as much as you think?"
Ancient Chinese Proverb about blogs: "Man who straddles fence usually has problem with posts."
This philosophy has the potential to revolutionize your every day life.
-
I just had the most delicious spaghetti dinner I've ever had. But could it have been more delicious?
-
Jessica Alba is insanely hot. But is she hot enough?
- I just won the Powerball. But can I really make due with only $20 million?
"Fisher has been at Florida State now for 31 games. And his first 31 games bear a resemblance to Bowden’s final 31 games."
Steps in the Sentinel Scientific Method
-
Get marching orders from Terry Bowden
- Make ridiculous claim
-
Hope and pray to find something that backs you up
-
Pat yourself on the back
Let me see, there are several similarities between Jeff's last 31 games and Jimbo's first 31. First of all, there are 31 of each. Incredibly convenient. Secondly, in each case the sport of football was played. So we've got that going for us. Lastly, did you know that during this time period Bowden had a secretary named Fisher and Fisher had a secretary named Bowden?!?!* Freaky, right?!!
*Facts are subject to change without notice and may or may not be reliable. Facts may not be reproduced, reused, rewritten, or re-disseminated without the express written consent of MattDNole, Inc and the Office of the Commissioner of Baseball.
"In Fisher’s first 31 games, FSU is 18-13. In Bowden’s final 31 games, FSU was 18-13."
You got me AC, I'm hooked. I mean, they played the exact same teams so if they finished with the same record it must mean they are similar. Oh wait. You mean they didn't play the same teams?
Bowden's last 31 games: 20 opponents with winning or .500 records, 20 bowl teams
Fisher's first 31 games: 23 opponents with winning or .500 records, 22 bowl teams
About 10% more of Fisher's games were played against teams with winning records.
(How's THAT for soft statistical analysis?!)
"In Fisher’s first 31 games, FSU has a 9-9 record in the ACC. In Bowden’s final 31 games, FSU had a 10-9 record in the ACC – 11-9 if you include FSU’s victory against Virginia Tech in the 2005 ACC Championship."
You spin me right round baby right round.....
Again with the quality reporting. Nevermind the fact that three of Bowden's ACC wins came against Duke and one against a 4-7 Wake Forest team (that won 30-0 the following year). If we're throwing those games out because the teams were terrible, we have to be fair. Bowden's team also managed to lose to 3-9 NC State. So that game should be expunged from the record as well.
"Some improvements have been noticeable. In Fisher’s first 31 games, for instance, the FSU running game is averaging 147.6 yards per game. In Bowden’s final 31 games, the FSU running game averaged 99.7 yards per game. And Fisher’s quarterbacks – especially Christian Ponder – seem to have played better than those Bowden coached."
Other improvements include leading the top scoring offense in the conference last season, after Jeff's attack never finished higher than 4th over his last three years. Or that Fisher accomplished that feat with the youngest offensive line in the country, for which he was named the ACC Offensive Coordinator of the year. A quick check reveals that Jeff Bowden was not named the Offensive Coordinator of the Year in his final 31 games.
Or that Jeff faced 20 ACC opponents in his last 31 games, and produced 30 or more points only 4 times. Twice in 2005 (over the aforementioned 4-7 Wake Forest squad and of course, Duke), and twice in 2006 (shockingly against Duke, and Virginia). That's right, in his last 31 games, Jeff's offense failed to produce a single 30 point performance against any ACC team that would make a bowl. But if you needed 50+ points for parents weekend against Duke, he was your man.
Compare that to Fisher who has faced 18 ACC opponents so far, and has produced 30 or more points 5 times. In Fisher's first year, he didn't accomplish the feat even once. But in his second year (2008), the year in which his offense was the best in the conference and he was honored with ACC Offensive Coordinator of the year honors, Fisher's offense accomplished the feat 4 times, and all of those outbursts occurred against bowl teams. From none of the conference games to half of the conference games, which by Carter's method, must show improvement. This year, Fisher is 1 for 2 in reaching the 30 win plateau, and everyone will count Miami as a bowl team.
We've officially reached the "Please don't kick me out of the program when you take over, Mr. Fisher" portion of the article. Feel free to grab a soda and come back in a minute.
...
"Let’s talk about ineffective offensive performances. Let’s say an ineffective offensive performance would be one in which the team had less than 325 yards of total offense. An effective offense should generate more than 350 yards per game, at least, but let’s be conservative."
Sure, and let's talk about "Oh my God I'm going to vomit- this can't possibly be football- did our coach get this job via the Make-a-Wish Foundation?" offensive performances. We'll say those happen whenever your team looks absolutely lost on national television or fails to reach 150 yards of total offense. Care to count those occurrences, Mr. Carter?
"In Fisher’s first 31 games, the FSU offense had less than 325 yards of total offense nine times. In Bowden’s final 31 games, the FSU had less than 325 yards of total offense 12 times."
*This portion of the article left blank to represent the level of analysis demonstrated by this sentence.*
Yeah I can't do this anymore. Let's just take a look at why I believe Andrew's conclusions are weak.
- Carter never adjusts for opponent or strength of schedule
- He doesn't account for changes in clock rules that have significantly reduced the number of plays (and thus drives) per game
- He chooses the weakest possible response variables to draw his conclusions
- He makes no attempt to measure trends in offensive performance
- He assumes each coach had equal amounts of talent to work with
Yards and points per game are a weak measure to compare different eras because of the different rules across years. A much more effective statistic, and the statistic that we will use today, are yards and points per PLAY. Through this measure, the variation in number of plays per game has been eliminated.
Yesterday, TNation contributor SteveNole posted a great Fanpost looking at the trends of offensive performance over time. I highly recommend that everyone read his post. I believe the most effective measure of a coach is "are his teams improving or regressing?" So, through the use of longitudinal data analysis and a simple regression model we can examine the pattern of offensive performance over time.
Let's treat each of the 31 games of interest as a separate time point. We will have to make the assumption that each of these games occurred an equal amount of time apart for simplicity's sake (accounting for offseasons will complicated the analysis beyond the level of a sports blog). Additionally, we will not account for injuries, suspensions, or strength of schedule (See Andrew? When a real statistician makes an assumption that will influence the results of the analysis, they at least mention it as a possible source of bias.)
- By fitting a linear model to the 31 timepoints, we will be able to analyze two things.
- Which coach's offense, if either, is performing better?
The numbers are as follows (Coach 0 = Jeff Bowden, Coach 1= Jimbo, Time = Game # in sequence) :
| Coach | Time | Rushing | Passing | RushingScores | PassingScores |
| 0 | 1 | 2.17 | 6 | 0 | 0.019608 |
| 0 | 2 | 5.81 | 10.5 | 0.032258 | 0.033333 |
| 0 | 3 | 0.96 | 4.1 | 0.04 | 0 |
| 0 | 4 | 1.42 | 6.4 | 0 | 0.020408 |
| 0 | 5 | 7.17 | 5.1 | 0.047619 | 0.032258 |
| 0 | 6 | 2.91 | 2.8 | 0.030303 | 0 |
| 0 | 7 | 4.5 | 10.8 | 0.15625 | 0.066667 |
| 0 | 8 | 0.68 | 6.1 | 0.052632 | 0.052632 |
| 0 | 9 | 3.22 | 11 | 0.055556 | 0.083333 |
| 0 | 10 | 5.33 | 10.7 | 0.055556 | 0.081081 |
| 0 | 11 | 4.52 | 6.4 | 0.047619 | 0.016949 |
| 0 | 12 | 4.94 | 7.7 | 0.090909 | 0.081633 |
| 0 | 13 | 4.12 | 7.1 | 0.090909 | 0.027027 |
| 0 | 14 | 1.87 | 4.1 | 0 | 0.022222 |
| 0 | 15 | 3.19 | 3.6 | 0 | 0 |
| 0 | 16 | 1.75 | 6.8 | 0 | 0.02381 |
| 0 | 17 | 1.96 | 6.4 | 0.041667 | 0.028571 |
| 0 | 18 | 1 | 6 | 0.038462 | 0.023256 |
| 0 | 19 | 0.04 | 5.5 | 0.04 | 0 |
| 0 | 20 | 1.61 | 7.8 | 0.035714 | 0.046512 |
| 0 | 21 | 2.68 | 5.1 | 0.026316 | 0 |
| 0 | 22 | 7.55 | 9.3 | 0.131579 | 0.086957 |
| 0 | 23 | 3 | 8.6 | 0 | 0.068966 |
| 0 | 24 | 7.48 | 8 | 0.047619 | 0.125 |
| 0 | 25 | 1.33 | 6.8 | 0.047619 | 0.020833 |
| 0 | 26 | 5.06 | 7.9 | 0.029412 | 0.055556 |
| 0 | 27 | 4.33 | 7.3 | 0.074074 | 0.032258 |
| 0 | 28 | 1.13 | 4 | 0 | 0 |
| 0 | 29 | 2.61 | 7.7 | 0.035714 | 0.086957 |
| 0 | 30 | 2.56 | 4.4 | 0.055556 | 0.023256 |
| 0 | 31 | 3.5 | 7.6 | 0.066667 | 0.023256 |
| 1 | 1 | 4.07 | 4.1 | 0.035714 | 0.028571 |
| 1 | 2 | 4.09 | 9.5 | 0.021739 | 0.085714 |
| 1 | 3 | 2.57 | 7 | 0.027027 | 0 |
| 1 | 4 | 2.34 | 8.9 | 0.028571 | 0.066667 |
| 1 | 5 | 3.54 | 9.2 | 0.028571 | 0.035714 |
| 1 | 6 | 1.96 | 5.9 | 0.041667 | 0.041667 |
| 1 | 7 | 3.36 | 6.3 | 0.021277 | 0 |
| 1 | 8 | 5 | 7.2 | 0.025641 | 0.021277 |
| 1 | 9 | 2.61 | 8.1 | 0 | 0.043478 |
| 1 | 10 | 4.14 | 4.6 | 0 | 0.030303 |
| 1 | 11 | 4.05 | 7.8 | 0.052632 | 0.038462 |
| 1 | 12 | 3.96 | 5.1 | 0 | 0 |
| 1 | 13 | 6.18 | 5.5 | 0.060606 | 0.02 |
| 1 | 14 | 9.06 | 10.8 | 0.15625 | 0.16 |
| 1 | 15 | 6.16 | 8.3 | 0.0625 | 0.111111 |
| 1 | 16 | 3.64 | 3.3 | 0 | 0 |
| 1 | 17 | 5.63 | 5.4 | 0.065217 | 0 |
| 1 | 18 | 5.2 | 5.1 | 0.074074 | 0.032258 |
| 1 | 19 | 3.07 | 7.3 | 0.022222 | 0.028571 |
| 1 | 20 | 2.34 | 8.4 | 0.052632 | 0.052632 |
| 1 | 21 | 5.44 | 6.5 | 0.027778 | 0.068966 |
| 1 | 22 | 7.39 | 5.7 | 0.083333 | 0.037037 |
| 1 | 23 | 3.04 | 6.6 | 0.041667 | 0.03125 |
| 1 | 24 | 4.1 | 6.2 | 0.047619 | 0.038462 |
| 1 | 25 | 3.09 | 4.4 | 0.030303 | 0 |
| 1 | 26 | 3.53 | 7.5 | 0.052632 | 0.054054 |
| 1 | 27 | 3.67 | 7.2 | 0.033333 | 0.04878 |
| 1 | 28 | 3 | 9.3 | 0.076923 | 0 |
| 1 | 29 | 6.39 | 7.1 | 0.081633 | 0.071429 |
| 1 | 30 | 0.7 | 7.3 | 0.037037 | 0 |
| 1 | 31 | 2.41 | 8.1 | 0.068966 | 0 |
Here is the model we will be using for the data:
Response = B0 + B1*Coach+ B2*Time+B3*Time*Coach
If B1 is significant, then the average value of the response for the two coaches is different. A positive value indicates Fisher's offense is better, a negative value indicates Bowden's was superior.
If B2 is significant, then the slope of the graph is significantly different from zero. If the B2 is positive, then the offense is improving. If it is negative, then the offense is getting worse.
If B3 is significant, then the two offenses have performed differently over time in the given response variable. The magnitude of the value will determine which offense is improving (or regressing) at a faster rate.
The data are analyzed using PROC GLM in SAS. Four separate models are created, each using one of the following as a response for the above predictors: Yards Per Rush, Points Per Rushing Play, Yards Per Pass, Points Per Passing Play.
The results are as follows (We are merely looking at the mean model here, so I will not analyze the residuals to check for correlation, etc.):
Yards Per Rush
proc glm data=matt;
model rushing=time coach time*coach;
run;
Standard
Parameter Estimate Error t Value Pr > |t|
Intercept 3.350967742 0.70821288 4.73 <.0001
Time -0.007016129 0.03863618 -0.18 0.8565
Coach 0.716967742 1.00156427 0.72 0.4770
Time*Coach 0.006258065 0.05463981 0.11 0.9092
At the alpha=.1 level there does not seem to be any significant difference in the time trend of the two coaches (.9092 > .10).
This interaction is removed and the model is analyzed again.
Standard
Parameter Estimate Error t Value Pr > |t|
Intercept 3.300903226 0.55253902 5.97 <.0001
Time -0.003887097 0.02709045 -0.14 0.8864
Coach 0.817096774 0.48460877 1.69 0.0971
Notice now that at the alpha=.1 we can see that Jimbo Fisher's offense rushes for about .81 yards per play more than Jeff Bowden's offense.
Rushing TDs
Standard
Parameter Estimate Error t Value Pr > |t|
Intercept 0.0426416506 0.01260494 3.38 0.0013
Time 0.0000970092 0.00068766 0.14 0.8883
Coach -.0183541957 0.01782607 -1.03 0.3075
Time*Coach 0.0011220481 0.00097249 1.15 0.2533
There is no significant difference in the time trend.
Standard
Parameter Estimate Error t Value Pr > |t|
Intercept 0.0336652655 0.00994531 3.39 0.0013
Time 0.0006580333 0.00048761 1.35 0.1823
Coach -.0004014254 0.00872261 -0.05 0.9634
There is no significant difference between coaches in the number of TDs scored rushing. The difference in TDs per game is not statistically significant.
Passing Yards
Standard
Parameter Estimate Error t Value Pr > |t|
Intercept 6.945161290 0.74036869 9.38 <.0001
Time -0.007459677 0.04039042 -0.18 0.8541
Coach -0.039354839 1.04703944 -0.04 0.9701
Time*Coach 0.006693548 0.05712068 0.12 0.9071
Again, the coaches are not trending differently.
Standard
Parameter Estimate Error t Value Pr > |t|
Intercept 6.891612903 0.57762964 11.93 <.0001
Time -0.004112903 0.02832062 -0.15 0.8850
Coach 0.067741935 0.50661471 0.13 0.8941
There is no significant difference in passing points per play between the two coaches.
Passing TDs
Standard
Parameter Estimate Error t Value Pr > |t|
Intercept 0.0305258299 0.01286568 2.37 0.0210
Time 0.0004758789 0.00070188 0.68 0.5005
Coach 0.0136674437 0.01819482 0.75 0.4556
Time*Coach -.0009266638 0.00099261 -0.93 0.3544
There is no significant difference in the time trends.
Standard
Parameter Estimate Error t Value Pr > |t|
Intercept 0.0379391406 0.01011164 3.75 0.0004
Time 0.0000125470 0.00049576 0.03 0.9799
Coach -.0011591777 0.00886849 -0.13 0.8965
The difference in passing TDs here is not significant. Fisher's offense is not performing any worse statistically than Bowden's despite the difference in scores.
What can we conclude from the data?
Carter claims that Fisher's offense is throwing for fewer yards: No statistically significant difference in the objective measure
Carter claims that Fisher's offense is rushing for more yards: Moderate evidence of a significant increase in rushing yards under Fisher.
Carter claims that Fisher's offense is scoring less than Bowden's offense: No statistically significant difference in rushing or throwing scores between the two offenses.
The difference in clock rules and the increase in Florida State's strength of schedule could account for the overall total differences in yards and scores. Personally, I was surprised at the lack of a significant time trend across the data, but the huge variation from game to game is probably the culprit. Once Fisher has coached at Florida State for a few more years, enough data points will be available to analyze these offenses across seasons, not games.
The point of this article is simple: It is bad logic to craft numbers to fit your agenda. Obviously I have my own bias, but for actual ANALYSIS I entered the data and examined the results as they were.
Articles like Andrew Carter's are counterproductive to objective sports observation through statistical analysis. Casual readers will look at his work and says to themselves "oh it has average in it, so it's statistical." People will believe that you can make up statistics to support anything. Let me state this unequivocally:
NOT ALL STATISTICS ARE CREATED EQUAL.
The appropriate use of quality data can lead to the improvement or analysis of any process, including sports.
Using Excel on your laptop to calculate a few averages does not represent quality statistical analysis. Using biased response variables and shoddy inferential techniques does not mean you are the next Statistical Sports Guru. It means you are a lazy writer.
While far from complete, this analysis is ten times more substantial than Carter's attempt, which is incredibly misleading and incomplete.
At Tomahawk Nation we try to find the most unbiased sources and measures of data to present an accurate view of what happens, because a good statistic is nothing more than a measure of what happens on the field. A bad statistic is misleading and detrimental to quality analysis of sports-related information.
In the future, when an editor or "whomever" directs Mr. Carter to conduct an "analysis," I would hope he puts a little more thought into his methodology.
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Comments
Another things to analyze to mke it more apple to apple comparison
1) the quality of defense FSU had at the time – who, Jimbo or Jeff, had a defense that would get the offense the ball more back quicker – I suspect the answer was Jeff.
2) the average time per possession
The second often does more to contribute to a winning team than yards per game. An offense that keeps the ball away from the opposing offense breaks the momentum of that opposing offense, rests its own defense, etc. I wouldn’t use time of possession – a weaker defense would allow the opponent to hold onto the ball longer. What I’d compare is how long FSU held the ball from the time it got the ball to the time it punted, turned the ball over, scored (TD or FG), or missed a FG.
Good stuff, Matt.
And now AC’s alienated probably about the only group of FSU fans that have ignored his employer and given him a shot. (I’m sure he’d say he doesn’t care. He should.) As for stats, I think the mainstream’s getting smarter. 24-hour news cycles are going to increase the demand for smarter methodologies. The public won’t tune in to the same coachspeak and garbage analysis aimed to please the top five or ten fanbases forever.
Outstanding work.
I would doubt that there is significant difference in passing yards, as an FSU fan wouldn’t exactly call the Jeff Bowden Passing Offensive System balanced.
I wonder how much of Jeff’s offensive output can be contributed to dynasty players (2001-2003). It seemed to me (I haven’t looked at the numbers) that there was a clear drop off.
Compare that to Fisher who started off his tenure at FSU with Jeff Bowden’s offensive players. Jeff inherited players that had actually been coached, and Fisher had not. So Fisher had to basically start from scratch, and Jeff took a full cupboard and destroyed it.
Can’t wait to see what Fisher does in the next couple of years.
Numbers don't lie...
…but people lie with numbers.
If you had an order from Bianchi to write something nice about the Bowdens
you’d fill a blog full of bad statistics, too.
I'm a bit irritated with anyone that tries undermind Jimbo at this point
Not that I think Jimbo is an end all be all for our program, but its quite obvious that our program is going to better than it is now when he takes over. He needs fan and FSU media support as soon as possible because he WILL BE our next head coach, no matter how many articles of weak comparison are written up about him.
It's obvious to people who follow the program closely because it is their passion
But to many it is not obvious and that’s why articles with shaky conclusions are so dangerous.
Great read but
using my own propriteary analysis I came to the unmistakeable conclusion that Jeffy was a no talent turd as an OC.
by POCONOLE on Oct 7, 2009 5:13 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
You Can Make Numbers Say Almost Anything
AC had to be suffering from Stockholm Syndrome when he wrote that piece. He chose the lamest of data points and used the most superficial analysis to try and prove a point.
I think (hope) this was spoon fed to him and he typed it while being burnt with cigarettes and threatened with a new assignment to the UCF beat.
Good job filling out the picture so others can see the type of media bias that exists in FL.
by Nole_Fan_Til_I_Die on Oct 7, 2009 5:30 PM EDT reply actions
Great Job!
You obviously know your statistics. Love how Jeff Bowden=Coach 0.
Greta stuff Matt
I love the analysis but isn’t it a little disappointing that Fisher isn’t a little further separated from Bowden? I would expected more considering how bad Jeff B was.
Not to mention ACC expansion.
a game we played every year in miami became a conference game (going to affect the conference record). Then start Subbing Duke and UVA with BC and VT…You get the point. The conference got tougher also.
I was laughing my head off until numbers started appearing in the second half of the article
- then my head just plain fell off and exploded.
I often wonder
if Xavier Lee’s temperament and attitude would have been any different with Jimbo being his QB coach from day 1. Because I don’t doubt that if he had the proper attitude he would have progressed as expected as far as playing the game goes. I know people speak of how he was a bad teammate but that could have had to do with a number of factors. I just wonder how much of a difference, if any it would have made with Jimbo. Hell I believe Weatherford would have been more than just a “safe QB” had Jimbo been here from his freshman season. I don’t think his ability to coach QB’s can be overlooked in this situation because Christian Ponder is incredible this season.
Good Point
Rix, Weatherford, McPherson, Lee were all highly touted recruits and did not progress AT ALL under Jeff. All 4 had flashes of greatness but never panned out. Fisher has turned a “program guy” into the best FSU QB since Weinke.
The quarterback problems are what is referred to in evaluating coaches as......
an INTANGIBLE. I remember the revolving door of QB recruits. I cant help but think what would have happened with them if we had had a real OC then, instead of someone whose last name was Bowden, and who was dumb as a box of rocks (my apologies to the rocks).
Old School Nole
if you don't mind me asking
who the hell are you?
that was some nasty statistic work there -
are you some kinda will hunting from south-tallahassee?
(its not your fault mattd, its not your fault!)
Love it...
I hope the newer members of TNation have taken the time to read and appreciate the work that was put into this article. In the past week, we have seen excellent summation of an emotional topic by FSUn and the rest of the contributors to this site. FSUn’s work was/is outstanding and he really deserves credit for staying abreast of the information and challenging all of us to re-consider what is really going on and providing us with a logical argument as to why the tide needs to turn.
For those of you who have joined in the recent days, you have only seen a small window into the world of TNation. We’re here to provide in-depth no-holds-barred analysis of Florida State sports. Whether you agree of disagree with the opinions expressed here, please do so with civility and respect. We do this out of our passion for excellence at Florida State. You will be provided thorough statistical analysis that objectively evaluates this team. We don’t drink the Kool-Aid unless the numbers say to. We’re here to provide you with information about FSU sports like you haven’t seen before.
So, I ask all of you who have joined the site in the past few days and have joined the TNation community…hang around for a bit. Get a feel for what we do here before you cast us off as a bunch of emotionally charged riot mongers. Hopefully, you will be surprised by what you find here. And please remember, it’s free.
But what is certain, is that we are passionate about FSU and it’s success. While you may think we’re just here to stir the pot and create movements for this or that, to protest, to enrage, to convert or whatever your opinion of our little space on the web…I urge you to hang around and see what this is really all about.
The quality of the work that FSUn has produced in the past few days is reflected in his commitment to thorough, novel analysis of our team.
As demonstrated by MattD in this outstanding article, we follow in the steps of FSUn. He has set the stage here for consistent, quality analysis of FSU sports. If you’re not into that, we’re sorry but that is what we are committed to and enjoy doing around these parts. We always welcome and appreciate your feedback.
GO NOLES!!!!
Cheers,
TC
www.Tomahawknation.com
by TrueCubbie on Oct 7, 2009 6:11 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
What flavor of Kool-Aid
Do Seminoles drink, when they drink it?
I got punk'd by UT's Athletic Department.
Depends
4 general groups
- Bowden > Program at any cost
- Bowden can stay, Fisher/someone else take over
- Bowden must go, Fisher takes over
- Fire everyone
Thanks, tn, for being around
when I was looking for an answer to my “WTF” questions about my alma mater’s once great football program. I hope that we return to our former greatness, so that a site like this is no longer necessary.
Old School Nole
When we get back
I hope we’re still around to detail how we’re beating everyone down.
by Bud Elliott on Oct 7, 2009 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
+1000
would love to read about the intricacies of a lopsided blow out (in our favor)
by DownByTheRiverWalkinOnWater on Oct 8, 2009 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions
new to the site
I am a relatiely new reader and am curious as to the coaching staff issues. I gather Fisher and Trickett, pretty good, Amato not so much. How do the others fall out? Who is Fisher likely to keep, get rid of?
Keep: Coley, Trickett, Dawsey
Limbo: Haggins, TBuck, Stroud
Pink Slip: Amato, Allen, Carter
I don’t count Andrews because he will retire.
Stroud is not in limbo IMO
Adios to stroud.
I’d say
Keep: Coley, Trickett,
Limbo: Haggins, TBuck, Dawsey
Pink Slip: Amato, Allen, Carter, Stroud
Wideouts have to show more consistency and not fumble IMO
Also, loyalty to past regime is an issue.
Fisher is going to say a lot of “that Bowden C*** stuff won’t fly no more boys” to the players. If he’s not in line with that, I’d expect a new guy to get a look.
Our YAC is in fact discouraging
I watch players from other teams turn 15 yard catches into 75 yard TD’s all the time. Its so weird. Its almost like our guys are just accustom to catching the ball and falling down, maybe with the exception of Easterling who always shows a lot of fight after a completion.
Agree
Having former players in the mix is good for the program but I think FSU would best to get coaches with previous experience I know Dawsey had some but dont think Tbuck or carter did…also those positions are struggling alot DB’s and RB’s
Stroud gone?
I thought we had made great leaps in strength and conditioning program after Jost left. O-line is stronger and knee injuries are down.
http://s825.photobucket.com/albums/zz178/unclefestus/
Yeah, that one surprised me too.
Maybe it’s guilt by prior association with Amato. But Stroud is a quality guy, was a quality player with character, and earned his accolades in the S&C community before joining this staff.
That said, if he’s part of the old Bowden/Amato mindset or has allied himself with that faction (which I haven’t heard), he would need to swept out as part of the house cleaning.
by PeachTreeNole on Oct 8, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
People are saying we could pluck a S&C coach from the Bama tree
You can’t beat that, I think you’d be surprised how much of a different makes. Stroud is definitely an upgrade to Jost but he is still far from elite. Our weight program is much improved, but not good.
Welcome to the site noleguy...
I will let the Football guys tackle this issue specifically…
But, there is a search feature at the top of the page that allows you to search the posts and comments for some of the information in which you might be interested. Try that out. I’m sure you’ll be able to find what you’re looking for.
www.Tomahawknation.com
We're working on a project to
catalog the site so that we can more quickly reference past articles.
Welcome Noleguy. Shocked that name wasn’t already taken.
noleguy
“I am a relatively new reader”
Congrats on your new literacy. It was a big deal for me when I started reading as well but i honestly don’t remember much of it. But now i read stuff all the time. It’s a good skill to have.
kidding, welcome to the site.
Nice work MattD
I do like AC’s blog and check it most days but when I read that article recently I was pretty disappointed. I knew it was only a matter of time until there was a response on TN with real analysis (or at least as good as you can when you arbitrarily pick two time frames based on the convenience of overall record similarity.)
"No, like I said, Woo peed on my rug" - The Dude
Rofl.
wonderful article. Nice points. Can I suggest that you try pretty graphs instead of those big blocks of numbers? I’ll admit that my weak Tennessee/North Carolina mind had a difficult time wrapping myself around the stats you put up.
But, yeah, these articles are wonderful. Keep ’em up.
I got punk'd by UT's Athletic Department.
Those are just the text outputs from the statistical software he was using. The data for the variables of the model included in those outputs (e.g.,error and t-value) are not graphically represented.
do you want to be added to the stats squad?
It’s an e-mail group of statsy type thinkers we bounce ideas off.
Did you read my post Matt?
I prove that Jimbo’s offense is quite significantly more consistant than Jeff’s. You just have to look @ the standard deviation. Jeff’s deviation is terrible and just 1 negative deviation away you have a 215 yard game (where Jimbo will have a 279 yard game)
Look @ the SD and you will have a very clear idea of whose offense performs better day in and out
IN fact
Go ahead and calculate Jeff’s Value @ Risk…You will go WTF
I ll just post it here
Consistency as a Factor
There are many other factors you’d probably want to throw in here… But based on these numbers, Jimbo provides consistency @ a higher rate of performance.
Jimbo’s Standard Deviation (measure of consistancy) is 38 yards better than Jeff’s, or rather, Jimbo has a 26% deviation to Jeff’s 38%…
Which also means that 4 out of 10 games Jeff’s offense is going to look ATROCIOUS, while 2.5 out of 10 games are going to look bad for Jimbo…
But wait…there is more!!! Why does Jimbo’s offense have merely “bad” days while Jeff’s offense has ATROCIOUS days?!
Because in addition to having a more consistent offense than Jeff, Jimbo averages 23 more yards than Jeff per game. That means when Jimbo has a bad game (1 negative deviation), Jimbo will still gain 279 yards while Jeffy will gain an EXTREMELY BAD 218 YARDS. I think we can all agree that a 218 yard offensive performance is UNACCEPTABLE.
by Trus1te on Oct 7, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Chopping Block, Jim Smith, and Knee Jerk Reactions
I was planning on doing a Fanshot/post when I got home before this piece was put up. But I guess here is as good as any.
First, I will say I know this piece was done mostly in good humor. And I don’t think that this is a personal attack on Carter. I will also say that Carter didn’t take into account all the necessary factors to do a proper comparison of Jimbo and Jeffy. I left a rather long keyboard heave on his board letting him know why I thought so. But I will say, folks here, and especially on his boards flipped out because of his post (and another that that I will mention in a bit) and all the sudden he is ‘in the pocket of the Bowdens.’ Seriously? Give me a break. You disagreed with what a reporter said? How will you ever survive? Please keep reading, I’m not trying to be a jackass here.
The facts are that there are many fans that are worried about Fisher. AC presented some evidence (like I said before, I agree weak evidence) to show fans out there that maybe not all is peachy on the offensive side of the ball. And I have to agree but only to a point. Clearly something is broken on offense this year. Is it Bowden interfering in the red zone? Has the offensive line learned better pass blocking but regressed in the run game? Have running backs hit some sort of mental block resulting in trouble hitting the holes? I don’t know, but two goal line failures stick out, even to casual fans and Fisher is the guy on offense.
Even Jeff Cameron, who is pimped on this site (just not nearly as much as WC), has said he understands why some fans would want to start from scratch. But I am certain that Cameron and Carter BOTH want Fisher to have his shot, as he SO MUCH deserves. A quote from Carter that he posted as a response to a question, “I do think his hands are tied, but not because of anything having to do with the offense. Fisher is solely the guy on offense. But as head coach in waiting, he should be allowed to play a key role in shaping the Seminoles’ coaching staff.” Sound like a Jimbo Hater? Sounds like a news reporter.
Time for round two, the piece he did on the Jim Smith comments. Carter stated that Jim Smith was out of line for the, let’s call it old yeller comments, that Jim Smith spewed to a news outlet. Two articles not calling for Bobby’s head on a platter and people were convinced. Carter has officially become a Bowden family puppet.
Let me preface this next part by saying, I am for the removal of Bobby by the end of the year by pretty much whatever (legal..I guess) means necessary. At first I was for Jim Smith coming out and saying it was time for Bobby to go. Why? Because I agree! All of the sudden change was eminent. THIS WEEK, something huge was going to be announced. But, to my knowledge, Carter didn’t have a minute by minute update on when the massive changes were going to occur (thanks tards at warchant). He waited. Waited on a reliable source to actually say something big was going to happen.
Then, TADA, Johnny on the Spot, TK comes out and quashes all of our hopes and dreams. Fans, players, coaches, the media, recruits, will all have to wait until the end of the year. If this turns out to be the case, where did Jim Smith get us? What did he do for the university publicly and privately? I’m going to go out on a not too long limb and say this was actually poorly planned. If we had some results then maybe I would be writing something different. But we don’t. We wait. And to steal from FSUn, we get raped in the national media.
Just step back and think for a sec. Maybe Jim Smith screwed up. Maybe the best thing to do was keep this behind close doors. I have no doubt that he tested the boosters. But did he talk to TK, or even Bowden? Think about how much face this university could have saved if it was first made clear to Bowden, behind close doors, that the university was ready to ‘move in a different direction’ at the end of the year. I really believe that Bowden, lacking any real friends or family willing to tell him he is doing a crap job, that he’s hurting the team, time was running up,he’s not invincible etc, was taken off guard. Now we have an 80 year old man with media clout doing even more damage than I even thought possible. I did make the argument on my first response to Carters analysis article that this could be just as ugly in 2010. And that may be the case. But to have an off season to tell Bobby there is no way he gets to have any decision making authority, would certainly have helped alleviate some of the problems going on now.
And I absolutely agree with Carter in that the ‘old yeller’ comments were absolutely inappropriate by Smith. Let the fans make anonymous hateful comments. We excel at that. But I don’t want to hear them from an official at my university. All it does is give more people in the national and even local media more ammo. It should have never been said. Let Bobby show that he is the spiteful one. Let him keep making fun of women. It is a delicate situation and Jim Smith screwed up.
Now to sum up, I’m right and everyone else is wrong. No..that’s not what I meant. I’m joking of course. But I am trying to make a point (however lamely that may be). Please avoid group think. It is an infectious disease. People so quickly started throwing stones at a guy that has been one of the most reliable sources of information on FSU. Before you start flipping out, try to look at stuff a LITTLE objectively. And then if you still completely disagree, throw poo. No. That’s not right. Tell them you disagree and state the facts why. Lame knee jerk responses will only make you look silly.
Note: Please don’t ban me. I still love this site and all that it offers. I just wanted to throw this out there. Feel free to disagree with me. But please tell me why without calling me a Bowden puppet or Jimbo hater.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Oct 7, 2009 7:12 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Very fair
I think Smith’s analogy was extremely accurate and also poorly delivered. Other than that, I agree with most of what you said and I am glad you posted your thoughts.
Oh the analogy was spot on...
I can’t even begin to tell you the absolutely horrible and atrocious things that have been pouring out of my mouth about Bowden and his family. Rob Zombie would tell me that I have crossed a line. But Smith has a very public, and completely different, roll to fill than I do. And he, eh hem, screwed the pooch.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
OBR
I disagreed with you on AC’s board, and I still do.
So there.
I don’t think Jim was comparing Bobby to a dog, as a lot of people seem to read those comments. He said the situation was like putting a dog down. That’s a situation where you know it’s the right thing, but you don’t want to do it. It takes a lot out of you emotionally, and I think Jim using the analogy helped show the public that this wasn’t a cold, calculated move by the university due to a (potentially) losing season or loss of revenue.
But you’re entitled to your opinion, even if it’s wrong….
by PBD on Oct 7, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Also
Sometimes humor doesn’t come across well in posts, so just pretend I was being as funny as MattD (we can all hope, okay?)
by PBD on Oct 7, 2009 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions
So who is Bowden in the 'situation?'
But seriously, I got the joke.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
Such a hater. Period.
No, these are very well reasoned thoughts, and I agree with many of them. I don’t have a problem with how Andrew reported this stuff outside of the statistical attempt yesterday. If he has a problem with the old yeller comments, then I don’t have a problem with him stating that, because I’m sure he’s not alone there. He’s been one of the most reliable sources of objective FSU information, outside of here. What I will say is that while Jim Smith may not have done this in the most effective manor as far as the administration goes, I’m still very glad he said what he did. It has galvanized a chunk of people to wake up and try to take some action to topple the tyrant.
>>---l>
OBR, I rec'd and I agree with most of what you said especially the AC/Terry conspiracy theories,
that the Bowden’s have bought AC, that the Slantinel forced this story, and that AC has turned into a Bianshit.
As a matter of fact, I left AC a comment that went something like this
Bianchi is awesome, AC sucks (j/k)
and just like many here, AC has grown to understand my warped sense of humor and he took it exactly as I meant it.
I will not defend or chastise AC or Matt, because as far as my simple mind can tell, (I will be the first to admit that I am not the brightest bulb in the chandelier) the final results between both studies were very similar, although Matt did take into consideration many variable that AC did not. I did challenge AC to adjust the numbers to level the playing field (I asked him to perform the analysis without 2007 and then compare Jeffy’s last 18 games with Jimbo’s first 18 games [Matt are you up for the challenge?]), and he said he would, but I have not seen it yet. However, until AC’s story broke, this was one area that had not even been considered or looked into or analyzed by anyone previously, and one that Matt would probably not done if not for AC’s story.
Also, like you, I would have liked to be looking at a greater seperation between coach 0 and coach 1. (To all others, I do understand all the other factors that make Jimbo’s #’s not appear better, so please save your breathes).
However, here is where we can agree to disagree. I didn’t/don’t have the slightest problem with Jim Smith or any of his comments (maybe putting down the dog may not have been the best analogy, because I would really, really miss my dog, Bowden not so much any more) but everything else he said, while may or may not have been beyond his supposed chartered limitations, has been the only thing that has been able to turn up the heat and get the national media involved and put FSU in their crosshairs.
Also, whether the media, the other coaches, or the other fans agree with our cause or believe “he has earned the right to go out on his own terms,” is really irrelevant, because now the entire nation knows that all is not well in Bowden Kingdom, and the 2-3 record is just a symptom of a much bigger and deeper problem.
As much a I respect and support Bud and this site, and as much as I respect AC, and Ellis and Clark, and as much as I despise Bianshit, none of them alone or banding together could have made this total dysfunction of FSU the flavor of the week in the national media as much as what Jim Smith did by speaking out of turn. His comments generated enough steam and brought maximum attention to the cause that we are all unified in attempting to achieve, which is Jimbo 2010.
If he had not made these comments, our cause would still be a local story at best, so for that I salute and thank you Mr. Smith.
OBR, you and I are always cool regardless of any petty differences of opinions such as whether Jim Smith spoke out of class or not.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
???
AC responded to you something to the effect of “You were right about all of it Frank”
What was he talking about? I didn’t see a post from you in that article before he wrote that….thought maybe all the rumors were confirmed after he spent time denying them (yeah, it’s a stretch, okay)
by PBD on Oct 7, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know about that one, I have to check it out.
Although he did come out, I think in the live chat and say the sucker punch during Wake did not happen (so maybe it wasn’t a sucker punch but a straight up punch, I don’t know), and that there was no confrontation before the USF game, but he did not refute that Bowden never came down to give the pep talk. He also pretty much acknowledged the Dexter Carter punching out Jody Allen alleged rumor which was good, and he did not deny the Bowden hitting up boosters for the $5 mil to buy out Jimbo.
I wish I had more inside info to counter back, but I mentioned the alleged rumors a couple of times on there and others also said they heard them.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
Now can be considered his greatest accomplishment as a coach
Though he only had to surpass the passing of the recruiting test on the 14th try to achieve that #1 spot.
>>---l>
Good so from now on I can say "It is a fact that..." instead of the "alleged rumor...."
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
You Group Thinking, Mush for Brains, Tomahawk Nation Pirate Hooker.
I’m responding to DKfromVA as well (and MattDNole, sorry I kind of hijacked your post)
I agree that there is a more unified, vocal front that is now advocating for Bowden’s exit. But I don’t think that there have been many people won over. The fans shouting from the roof tops are the same that have wanted him gone for a while (I’m sure there are more boosters behind it and winning Ellis over is a plus). It is nice to finally have a voice inside the administration support this group, of which I’m included. I am, however, hesitant to say that the results we get when all is said and done, are the best we could have hoped for. Will Jim Smith prove to be the needed catalyst for much needed change? Or will he be the guy that tarnished the program (in the media’s eyes and some ‘fans’) and done further damage to recruiting and the stability of said program. I think the verdict is still out. I think if we got what we all hoped for, Bowden saying he is out, Fisher is in, new coaches will be hired, etc, then I think it would be easier to call. To me, TK’s inability to step up to the plate and letting Bowden further dig in, has ruined the best case scenario following Smith’s comments. Now having said all that garbage…BLACKOUT!!!!!!!! I’m still totally down with this idea and will be the only way I go to the rest of the games until Bowden says he is ‘retiring.’
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Oct 7, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
High stakes poker
At the risk of being branded by one of your Yosemite Sam slanders…I disagree.
As far as winning fans or converts, I believe that it has. Or at least it has brought to the fore many people who have been only obliquely critical of Bowden out of respect. Or fear. This is especially true in the media. It is now okay to publicly take a stand on this and most people feel he should go. In the national media, I have heard very few people saying he should say. In fact, I’m not sure that, besides the Two Live Stews on talk radio (who are lunatics), I’ve heard anyone say different. That unanimity of opinion is quite powerful. Most look at the situation as a sticky wicket and understand the problem here. Andy Staples on CNNSI has a great piece about it with an excellent analogy. While they may disagree on how we handle it, they know it has to be done.
Even his family must see the writing on the wall. We can all hope they will keep an eye on posterity and not fight this out. In a better situation, Bowden could have been appointed as the Ambassador of FSU Football and gone out with the Boosters all over the state to raise money, tell stories, play golf and be hailed as a Hero. Now, who knows how the relationship will end. Will he write a “tell all” book? Will the Boosters want him to just go away?
Who knows.
p.s. I’m really looking forward to this Saturday and seeing how the whole game plays out, how the team reacts, what the crowd is like and whether or not the team comes out in their Black uniforms. Heh…
http://s825.photobucket.com/albums/zz178/unclefestus/
This Will End Badly...You Varmint
Also confident his family will not do the right thing as they have done nothing but exacerbate the situation. They refuse to be the calm voice of reason he needs now, and into the off season.
While there are media outlets saying that Bowden needs to go (and you are right, not all are sure how it should be done) not all is positive news. And many think the University has handled it poorly.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-four-corners-bowden,0,131302.column
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orl-sportsadelson-08100809oct08,0,2208786.column
http://www.lakecityreporter.com/articles/2009/10/08/sports/doc4acd462e71b2e808303263.txt
http://www.thesunnews.com/sports/story/1106598.html
http://www2.journalnow.com/content/2009/oct/08/rough-waters-3-acc-coaches-feel-heat/sports/
I’m not saying any of this stuff is exactly quality. But it’s out there. People are reading it. Not everyone is pulling a Bianchi or Ellis. There is certainly not a unified message to the whole nation. A writer saying Bobby has earned the “privilege” to “call his own exit strategy,” another referring to the situation as a “civil war,” and a 2011 recruit saying he is upset with how it has been handled, provides a pretty poor image of this weeks past events to the public. And this doesn’t include the garbage coming out of Bowden’s mouth either.
Don’t underestimate the man’s pull in the media. Bobby will need to spew a few more statements that reveal he believes Ann is the only women fit to wear pants, before everyone turns on him. I personally think, as sad as it is, Bobby has won the first round (first round of many to come) following TK’s statement. Just sad.
You are right. This Saturday is shaping up to be quite intriguing and I am looking forward to it. Many plots and subplots to be played out. How will the team handle it? How will the crowd? Do facebook people really follow through worth a crap? Stay tuned.
Anyway. Good discussion, Varmint.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
So Matt is this a funny post or a smoke that in your corn pipe post.
I like it and think its great ether way.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Terry Bowden just posted this on AC's blog:
DickfromVa, don’t pretend that any of you are real statisticians. You may know where to find statistics but that’s about it. You and FSUSOM are the definition of worthless and can’t even assist in running a website. Not without screwing it up at Bobby level. I know this may seem harsh but I have no tolerance for stupidity and never will.
Posted by: No Bobby Lovers | October 07, 2009 at 06:32 PM
If Terry Bowden has no tolerance for stupidity....
Then he should never try to coach football at any level (including pee-wee) ever again.
Old School Nole
Someone left me a comment yesterday on AC's blog, by someone named dot.com, accusing me of giving out Warchant premium information and how I could get in trouble. You should read my reply to dottie.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
I just figured it was the guy on here named DOT COM.
and you two were in on it. I thought it was funny…
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
I thought dot.com was the screen name for the dick who runs W/C.
I wouldn’t know because my answer was serious, I have never even taken up the free offer there.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
But yeah, now that you mention it, it would have been funny if it was a tag team effort.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
Gene is dot.com
but there is a guy that posts on here that I have seen named DOT COM. Sometimes pretends to post stuff like he is Gene, to get the haha reactions.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
it is quite humorous. I wish Yarborough4heisman would come back
Maybe after this weekend we will be graced with some more good stuff.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Oct 7, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Now I don't know who was calling me out. Regardless, whoever it was, F*ck em, I don't give a sheet.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
You think it's joke? BANNED FROM THE CHANT! I DEFY you to let your mouse carress the Tribal Council ever again!!
Now that I have been brought up to date on your twisted sense of humor Dottie, HAHAHAHAHA! I like it.
Nice one.
I really thought it was a scumbag from W/C calling me out.
DOT COM=1
Frank=0
Or in Matt’s world, you are Jimbo and I am Jeffy.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
Nice! Let the most objective and quality stats come forward and shine a light in the darkness to those who cannot see.
"I'm falling apart, I'm barely breathing, With a broken heart thats still beating, In the pain is the healing, in Your Name I find meaning, So I'm holdin' on.. holdin' on to you."
Responding to a few thoughts from the comments...
Yeah, I can see where the formatting might be a bit of an issue in the results section. Honestly I just copied and pasted them from SAS in attempt to get the article up quickly.
Trust1e, I believe your analysis is the specific thing that proves the “OMG- Is this even football” part of the FJM section of the article.
The AC conspiracy theory is based more on a running inside joke among the writers than it really is on anything we’ve seen from the Chopping Block.
The purposes of this article were three-fold: 1) to have a little FJM fun, 2) The other writers (mainly SWFLNole) were giving me crap because I never post anything statistical even though I am a statistician, 3) I am tired of people using Bad Statistics and thinking it represents quality analysis.
I have now come full circle, aaahhh.
MattD comments next: “That’s what she said.”
I saved you the effort Matt.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
(Fingers crossed he isn't part of number three despite the fact that he has tossed some quick and dirty stats up in the comments sections in the past week)
Should leave it up to the professionals…
Great stuff though Matt. Really hope to see more this fall if you have time for it.
From one stat geek (not professional) to another, cheers.
www.Tomahawknation.com
Our "Seminole beat writer"
Shown up by Bianchi. Just proves what nest of gators the Orlando Sentinel is. I am glad I cancelled my subscription.
Playstation All American, right again!
TomahawkNation
Better to bear the rebuke of the wise than to hear the song of fools
If anyone is mildly comparing Fisher to Fredo
Even remotely hinting at it he doesn’t qualify as being a sportswriter. We can only speculate that he is told by his supervisor Mike Bianchi hey hit the showers and let me be the good guy this time.
We no longer need statistics to realize that Andrew is finished and one to never take seriously again.
Playstation All American, right again!
TomahawkNation
Better to bear the rebuke of the wise than to hear the song of fools
Rumor is that Terry from Northern Alabama
made a few call down to Orlando and tada…you get the AC switcher-roo.
He is now batting for team Bowden.
comparing Fisher to Frodo.
Terry gave AC one of the rings now he is bound FOREVER to the Anti-Fisher Neo-Bowden apologists.
MattDnole
Am I correct in assuming you’re using STATA for these statistics? I just started using it for research in my work here at FSU, so I’m becoming more and more familiar with these processes
SAS actually.
But my dissertation work is in STATA.
I’ve had to use everything from Matlab to R to SPlus to SAS to STATA and Matlab.
Yay consistency!!
BTW-
Bobby Bowden will be on live with 790 The Zone tomorrow morning in Atlanta. I think during the 8 AM hour.
I would imagine he will be doing several radio shows if he is doing Atlanta.
BB on the radio
He does everything but coach and keep sabotaging coaches inline don’t he.
Yep
Interesting to see what Baghdad Bobby has to say
By the way, I emailed you a wrestling video clip for the game preview.
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Oct 7, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I may call in to that show
and tell bobby that Sauron thinks he is the owner of the ring!
Playstation All American, right again!
TomahawkNation
Better to bear the rebuke of the wise than to hear the song of fools
Recruit saying JIMBO SHOULD TAKE OVER. Come to my site and give me money to know who, or let a fine gentleman here at TN leak the goods
"Now I'm done!" "Boom, I'm outta here!"
REcd
Yeah, right!
by truecolors on Oct 7, 2009 11:51 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
“Compare that to Fisher who started off his tenure at FSU with Jeff Bowden’s offensive players. Jeff inherited players that had actually been coached, and Fisher had not. So Fisher had to basically start from scratch, and Jeff took a full cupboard and destroyed it.”
It would be somewhat of interest to compare JB’s last 11 games with Fishers first 11 since they had pretty much the same players to hand…however the competition is surely not the same. This is a difficult thing to quantify ‘progression’..and frankly I never took statistics. But I believe one would in teh end have to stand by the “Jury of his peers” and go with the ACC offensive coordinator of year awards but then that would be something voted on by sportswriters…not the swiftest fish in the pond to work with there.
Here’s my take….JB’s play call I could nail about 90% of the time. Fisher mabbe 50%…well he’s no Mark Whipple either. Not that I’m a fan…but you have to admire his play calling in game 1…play-action on first down and only one running play all night iirc
And this is the crux…predictability. Jeff Bowden was so predictable
"I am not now at all sure that the tendency to treat the whole thing as a kind of vast game is really good - certainly not for me who find that kind of thing only too fatally attractive." - J R R Tolkein
Fisher
Had an offense that was only slightly better in his 1st year. It was light years better in his 2nd.
You could also say though...
That Fisher’s offense had a better Oline coach to work with (there is still debate on how good Trickett really is, but genius or not, his lines are better than McHales in JB’s last two years).
Also, Ponder is looking good under Fisher, but Drew did not look much better under him. Fisher could also not make a connection with Xavier Lee.
Fisher’s better rushing numbers largely come from last year. This year it seems the offense has reverted back to JB’s 90% passing attack. While some would say Fisher is just taking what is given to him, then you have to be fair and say the same for JB. JB actually seemed to call lots of running plays Greg Jones junior year. I do not defend either coach for it though. Fisher needs to get back to not giving up on the run.
Also, like JB’s tenure, there have been a few blowouts to pad the stats, but you cannot save those extra points to use when you need them in another game unfortunately (2003 blowing out Notre Dame then losing to Clemson and this year blowing out BYU then losing to USF).
316 yards rushing against BYU is not giving up on the run
When you are down 21-6 against BC with time running out you have to pass. In the final analysis you have to take what the defense gives you.
Playstation All American, right again!
TomahawkNation
Better to bear the rebuke of the wise than to hear the song of fools
That's already been proven untrue
pass/run ratio has been consistent. truecubbie discussed it the other day, I’ll try to find the thread.
“Fisher needs to get back to not giving up on the run.”
I’ll second that. I certainly expected more production from our running game. And a big part of that is play calling…but then no idea how many times Ponder checks off or has a run or pass option. Too many variables…including the ‘head coach’ in your ear venting while a crucial 3ed down call is about to be run and a play needs to be called…witnessed at least once…not that every play is not crucial.
What disturbs me is lack of success in the red zone. Deeply.
"I am not now at all sure that the tendency to treat the whole thing as a kind of vast game is really good - certainly not for me who find that kind of thing only too fatally attractive." - J R R Tolkein
Thats what she said...
damnit! mine are never as funny as MattD’s.
This is a great article, and it actually helped me ease the pain of this mess. Thank you again.
If you are ever in China, hit a brother up.
by LincolnHighNole on Oct 8, 2009 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Quote from Lord Kelvin (lifted from a recent Deadspin article)
“When you cannot measure it and express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a very meagre and unsatisfactory kind.”
Sooooo
any news on the team this week?
by DownByTheRiverWalkinOnWater on Oct 8, 2009 9:11 AM EDT reply actions
You know what really grinds my gears, Jimbo calling Ponder over to the sideline so much during the game.
Fortunately it hasn’t resulted in any delay of game penalties so far, but that is what the hand signals are for. He is making Ponder have to hustle to get back to the huddle to get the play off and less time to line up and look over the defense to possibly check off.
A little off topic I know, I don’t have the stats to back it up, and I apologize to Matt for my sudden outburst, but it has been keeping me up at nights and if Jimbo doesn’t stop doing this, I will start a FireJimbo.com site.
No seriously, watch and see if this is just my imagination or not during the next game.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
GLM question
I’m assuming you used a Gaussian (normal) distribution. Just a note: Always include that info.
Could you explain what B3, multiplying Coach type by game sequence number, was supposed to test? That seems very unclear to me. Also, I’m double-checking, but I think having a binary column (coach = 0 or 1) will mess up the calculation.
To be perfectly honest, including the assumptions of the generalized liner model seemed a little snotty for the purposes of a sports blog.
Game sequence number in this example represents a time component for a longitudinal analysis. Looking back, it probably wasn’t the best measure of time and no significance was shown. However, we did not have enough data points to a year by year comparison so I went with what I could. Game number was the only measure that seemed relevant to the data; I wish we had more data to work with so that I could choose a different time measure.
B3 is the coefficient associated with an interaction term (time*coach was the only real way I could express that given what we have to work with using the SBNation template) between the Coach (consider this our “treament”) and time. Think of it as a random slope term in your traditional regression analysis approach.
If B3 had been significant, it would have indicated that there was a difference in the slopes of the two trajectories. The massive amounts of game to game variation are probably limiting my ability to see any significant difference, so a better time variable would enhance the analysis. I am basing this approach on Diggle, Liang, and Zeger’s book Analysis of Longitudinal Data(2002).
I may very well be wrong, but if it is improper to use a 0/1 indicator for treatment, then how are clinical trials using a treatment and control variable analyzed?
Going even deeper through the looking glass...
Let me assume that every coefficient had been significant. If that had been the case:
B0 is Jeff Bowden’s initial starting point at Game 0
B0+B1 is Jimbo Fisher’s starting point at Game 0
B2 is Jeff Bowden’s trend over time
B2+B3 is Jimbo Fisher’s trend over time
Since B3 was never significant in the actual analysis, we can not state conclusively that Jeff and Jimbo’s offense have improved or regressed differently (a better measure of time may show otherwise) and their slopes are parallel.
In the case where B1 is significant, it means that Fisher statistically performs better throughout the set (picture two parallel lines where one line is above the other).
okay
that’s a little snotty for a sports blog.
So Jimbo > Jeff?
Also AC said Jeff = $150,000, while Jimbo = $950,000, but Jimbo’s production isn’t 6x that of Jeff’s. I don’t buy that $‘s relate to a linear increase in prduction, but didn’t know what you thought about that part of the argument.
I don't think Jimbo makes $950,000
I thought it was more like $650K.
I am honestly surprised that Jimbo didn’t seem to perform much better in this analysis.
I consider that extra 500K to be insurance that we don’t look God-awful on national television so often. Jeff was good for 1-2 performances like that per year, JImbo has given 1-2 performances like that in his entire time here.
If you're going to put up GLM results
there is absolutely nothing snotty about stating your assumptions. I mean, you included the SAS code, which is cool to me because you’re showing the meta-work; I just didn’t see the family of models to approximate, hence my question.
Is B3 literally the “time” and “coach” independent variables multiplied, creating a new independent variable? Again, I question the physical sense in this type of combination. What is produced? A game sequence number times a 0/1 coach?
Also, testing the game sequence number should be irrelevant toward determining game any of the dependent variable relationships (e.g., YPP, etc.), unless you are trying to test for a relationship between coach and game-to-game performance. So I would not include that as a variable in your model. (This is verified by its non-significance in the model output, so i guess that’s academic).
Regarding binary (0/1) data, that is refering to a binomial distribution. Which is fine and dandy, if the GLM is tested against a binomial distribution (family=binomial). However you have intermingled gaussian and binomial terms in your GLM, and that is going to hugely change your output. My suggestion is to just do a bivariate regression of a coach’s average performance indicators (PPP, YPP, etc.) that you did above, and test for significance that way.
Fair enough on the assumptions.
You hit the nail on the head with the game sequence number assessment. My initial guess was that Fisher’s offense were improving game-to-game while Bowden’s were getting worse. Obviously that wasn’t shown given the non-significance of the coefficients.
If Bowden had performed great in 2005 and every single one of his performances were in 2006… and then Fisher comes along and everything in 2007 is bad and his offenses start improving in 2008 and 2009, then there could be a case made that Bowden was making his offenses worse while Fisher was making them better. Or the other way around. Including the time variable was an attempt to see if that was happening. As I stated above, I would prefer a different time variable but I didn’t have one.
0/1 isn’t dependent the binomial distribution when it is a predictor variable. If the 0/1 variable had been a response, then you are correct, the Normal distribution is completely off base and I should have used the Logistic model or perhaps some sort of Poisson regression. In this case, 0/1 is just an indicator variable for the two different coaches.
If I am giving a Stat 101 class an example on linear regression, and I tell them to predict their test score using only the fact that they ate breakfast or they didn’t then the model is given by:
Test Score= B0 + B1*(Eat Breakfast)
B0 is the average test score for people who did not eat breakfast, B1 is the additional effect of eating breakfast on that average (assuming significance)
Here, the variable “Eat Breakfast” is a 0/1 (no/yes) indicator variable. It does not change the fact that a simple linear regression would be appropriate for the data.
Now, if I were to reverse this, and ask them to predict whether or not they had eaten breakfast given their test score it would completely inappropriate to use a linear relationship since the 0/1 variable is the response. Logistic regression is called for here (Unfortunately I cannot seem to find a clear way to type the logistic model in this format, but I am sure you are familiar with it, i.e. the ratio of e^B to (1+e^B)).
“Coach” is nothing more than an indicator variable (sometimes we call it a dummy variable… but that seemed mean-spirited since we were discussing Jeff Bowden) to determine if the two coaches have a different average response.
The first part of sentence 1 in paragraph 3 should read:
“If Bowden had performed great in 2004 and 2005 and every single one of his BAD performances were in 2006…”
I think I finally figured out where the confusion is.
In longitudinal analysis, Time represents the only predictor (x). Coach here is merely a modifier for time.
Note that in the example above about breakfast, I could only make assumptions about the mean and could not actually calculate a slope, because as ricobert has said it is improper to use the normal distribution when the data are in two distinct groups.
Now that everyone is scared away from my post…. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri33bydAavI&feature=player_embedded
Terrence Moore is an a-hole
He HATES fsu. I remember him ripping into fsu for getting Corey Simon. At the time his article was titled “FSU: breeding ground for scandal” in which he refered to our University as a “half-way house”
All of this goes back to FSU doing the unthinkable. Thats right. We had the unmitagated gall to win the 1993 MNC over Moore’s beloved Notre Dame. Kicking ND butt a few times since then hasn’t improved or lightened Terrence’s mood toward FSU at all.
Those of us in Atlanta are well aware of TM’s muck-raking for the AJC. He thinks fsu is trash, but always bad mouthed the local teams, and sports figures to get noticed. The same guy that hated on Evander Holyfied…relentlessly, always defended and excused Mike Tyson’s many…MANY trangressions.
PS: Not to mention he once demanded payment to call-in on the local sports talk stations (680 & 790) the radio crews here in the ATL got a big on-air laugh out of that one.
HAHAHA, Terrance "Matt Ryan can't even shine Mike Vick' s shoes" Moore?
Moore is the Bianchi of the AJC…he ate crow all his anti-Ryan post.
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three.
Elayne Boosler
He's also conviently leaves out Chauncy Davis when talking about Falcon DEs.
Always bashed Dunn. He’s got it out for FSU, always has…
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three.
Elayne Boosler
Is he a UGA guy? GT?
I find a lot of people that pull for both UGA and FSU, i suppose due the proximity, and the fact that the teams have no rivalry and rarely face each other….
However
There are alot of UGA fans that don’t like FSU at all, and the reason that I have been given is that alot of Georgia fans became FSU fans in the late 80’s and 90’s during UGA down period. They kind of view FSU as “dividing their house”….
No matter what you guys say
Jimbo just has not overwhelmingly impressed me as an OC. I hope Fisher lets Coley (assuming he makes Coley OC) call plays when he becomes head coach. Then I hope Coley improves the clock management of getting plays in even more so..even maybe sometimes throwing in some no huddle. I do not think our current team is organized enough for that yet, but so many teams have done it at some point, including FSU, that it cannot be that hard for them to get it back as something to use occasionally.
Oh, and I hope he gets on the same page as Trickett for when the defense jumps offsides. Right now it appears Fisher (even stated it once) wanted to take advantage of the free play, but Trickett seems to train his guys to stay set (I assume to make sure the refs know they did not do anything wrong to draw the defense offsides). It seems hard to run a free play with a frozen Oline. Anyone else confused by this?
We don't run the no huddle,
Because we want to keep our defense off the field as much as possible. Our defense gives up two minute drives all the time.
by UnstopaNole99! on Oct 8, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
again
I am not in favor of running a no huddle all the time. I think late in games when trailing it can be good, or you can take advantage of it early in games to get big leads and wear opponents down. Then I think its better to slow things down on offense and grind it.
They do get the plays off, but
have had to call timeouts sometimes to prevent them, and once this year when it was a 4th and 1 and they were going for it, they just got the ball off. Had they gotten to the line and had time on the clock Ponder could have tried to draw the defense off sides. They had no time to do that though and since the defense knew when the ball was going to be snapped they could go full throttle without risk of being offsides

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