Another relic from the Bowden era: The QB succession plan
by Fsued on Nov 23, 2009 4:55 PM EST
53 comments
It has been so interesting to watch E.J. Manuel get meaningful playing time in his two starts since Ponder's shoulder injury. He's certainly showed flashes of brilliance as well as evidence that he has LOTS of mistakes to work out of his system.
But the very least we can say is this: We can actually breathe next year when Ponder decides not to slide to end a run, knowing we have a capable backup.
Manuel's ascendancy into the spotlight is also an interesting juxtaposition to the descent of Bobby Bowden as his time at FSU draws to a merciful close.
The Bowden era will be remembered for many things -- the program re-launch in the late 70s, the dynasty years in the 90s, superstar players such as Simmons, Sanders and Ward; daring playcalling and then offensive innovation with the spread formation.
A sometimes forgotten aspect of the dynasty was Bowden's embrace of a quarterback succession plan.
Bowden began to set up a recruiting structure by which he spaced quarterbacks two years apart, with redshirts factored in, so that a quarterback became a starter as a redshirt junior. New "elite" quarterbacks were recruited when the incumbent was a redshirt senior.
This system became most noticeable during the early 90s when FSU fans salivated at the prospect of Charlie Ward quarterbacking the Noles. But they patiently waited (and some fine seasons made it easier) for Casey Weldon to graduate so Ward would take over as a redshirt junior.
The system fell apart in the early 2000s due to injuries and other factors, something lamented by Bowdenistas as a reason for the downfall of the program and as an excuse for the ineptitude of Jeff Bowden.
I submit, however, that this system's time has passed (much like the man who who practiced it). This is a new era of college football where the quarterback position is placed in the line of fire much more frequently than ever before.
To illustrate this, let's take a trip back to the Ward era. When FSU fans think of Charlie Ward's style of play, they think of two things -- Ward's passing in the spread offense and his incredible elusiveness in the pocket and as a runner. You'd probably have to go back to Kelly Lowery and Eric Thomas running the option in the early/mid-eighties to come up with quarterbacks who featured running as part of their arsenal more than Ward.
In 1993, Ward carried the ball 65 times and was only sacked 10 times (!!!) which is 55 rushing carries. He missed one game with injury, so he rushed the ball exactly 5 times per game.
Let's compare that to Christian Ponder this season.
Through the first 8 games (left out final game vs. Clemson when he was obviously injured ), if you take out sacks, he had 53 carries, which is an average of 6.7 carries per game -- that's about a 33 percent increase in rushing carries. As you can see, Ponder reached roughly the same number of carries in just 8 games that Ward had in 11 games.
My point?
If you are going to run the type of offense currently in vogue (making the defense account for the QB run threat on every play), the quarterback must be an effective runner. If he never runs, the defense doesn't have to respect the threat of him running. As such, you don't have the luxury of grooming quarterbacks for three years so they can enter the fray as a redshirt junior.
You need AT LEAST two quarterbacks ready at all times. The chances of getting through a season without injury is small enough that it would be foolish to not have AT LEAST two quarterbacks ready to go. I would submit that -- even if the opportunity doesn't present itself in the form of blowout games -- an offensive coordinate must force himself to give the second-stringer (and maybe third) meaningful playing time early on in his career given the high probability that he will be needed before he is "ready."
This should HELP recruiting. Instead of telling somebody -- "look, in the best case (for us), you're going to be holding a clipboard for the better part of three years." We can say this: "you may not be the starter for three years, but you're going to get important playing time early , we will develop special packages for you and given the type of offense we run, you could very well find yourself starting a game as early as your redshirt freshman year."
When Bowden heads out to pasture retires at the end of this season (hopefully), I hope he takes his quarterback succession plan with him.
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It seems like for the near future though, the starter will be a RS Jr. though. Manuel next and Lamay (spelling) after him. I personally don’t see Trickett ever starting for Jimbo unless he blossoms like Chrisitan did.
Lemay is so far off in the future.
But I think the author’s point is that good coaches get non-RsJr’s to perform.
Totally agree with that sentiment
was simply saying that it seems as though we’ve got plans to have an experienced starter for the foreseeable future.
Very Good Points
And i like this article, but Im not too sure, if its a definite that the succession plan needs to leave. Bowden himself can go, but I don’t see any reason why this succession plan is that bad. I think it gives each quarterback enough time to mature, and it makes sure that they have the offense down. I know you may say that it is bad for possible recruits, but I remember Jimbo giving a quote, where he says he constantly tells EJ that “back-up QB is the hardest position to play” – Jimbo gives tons of support to his (top recruited) back-up Quarterbacks, and I think this makes it a whole lot easier on those waiting to play. Don’t forget about what you said about injuries as well…if we are seeing a QB start for more than 2 years, we will most likely see that QB go down sometime along the line.
With all that being said – I do agree with you that this succession plan shouldn’t be a definite go-to each and every 2 years…I think it does work well, but if there are other options, then go ahead with them. Right now, we will see EJ start 2 years, and the next in line, will hopefully be Lemay, if everything works well, he will start as a RS So….man I hope we get him!
Yeah, you want two ready, but the backup is not going to be as good usually
as the guy who sees the majority of playing time. There are times when backups come in without a hitch. Often it is due to good coaching adjustments, as I am sure Brian Kelly used when Tony Pike got hurt at first, or as Jimbo Fisher did for Manuel. Still though, those changes to help the QB means adjusting how you may truly want to attack the opponent. Manuel is still young, and in another year of practice will be better, but I think nothing replaces real time game experiences for these guys.
Just Imagine.
Where Manuel would be if he hadn’t injured his finger in spring…
revisionist history
when FSU fans salivated at the prospect of Charlie Ward quarterbacking the Noles.
A bit of revisionist history going on there. I love how the years pass and the mythology of Charlie grows.
For example, as a sophomore, there were two more widely recruited QBs on the roster – Kenny Felder and Brad Johnson. Johnson was behind Weldon, Felder was rotating with Ward as third string (one game one was third and the other fourth, then they switched). Felder and Ward battled it out for the starting job in the spring before their junior years.
You can speak of — well “Ward was more of the athlete”. Well, Felder, Johnson and Ward were all two sports athletes. In fact, Johnson was offered a basketball scholarship to UNC. Felder was an athletic outfielder on the baseball team, who after losing the starting job that spring went pro in baseball.
and all that is not to even mention that Ward almost lost the starting job in season – he struggled until the infamous Georgia Tech game.
As for the infamous redshirt junior philosophy, it’s a partial truth. But actually, in its early years it was designed as recruiting one QB a year, not every other year. They stumbled upon it. And the dynasty years started off with a second year starter in junior Danny McManus, who’s three years as a starter over lapped the first two dynasty years (‘87-’88). The ’89 starter? Fourth year senior Chip Fergusen. The ’90 starter? Fifth year senior Peter Tom Willis. The 1991 season had two third year juniors (Weldon and Johnson) battling for the position, with a redshirt freshmen (Kenny Felder) behind them and a redshirting sophomore available if needed (Ward). The 1992 season had a redshirt junior backed by a true freshman (and had been designed to have another redshirt jr backing him). The 1994 season had a true junior starting.
In fact, through the dynasty years, there were 7 times FSU needed to find a new QB starter – and only three times was there a redshirt junior filling the role. One additional time there was a true junior filling the role, with the other times being a fourth year senior, and fifth year senior, and a redshirt sophomore. Had it worked out differently, Dan Kendra would have made a fourth redshirt junior taking the role — but at the same token, Danny Kanell had been recruited with the hope of redshirting him, with the pace of starting as a third year sophomore in ’94 rather than as a true junior.
by Wild@Heart Nole on Nov 23, 2009 7:55 PM EST reply actions
Good call, Wild, that point struck me too
I remember a lot of fans questioning whether Ward was durable enough to lead the team. Most fans were like “you mean the QB is the guy from the basketball team?” I remember thinking Felder was gonna win the QB battle because he was bigger dude. And you are right, fans were tearing into Ward and calling for Kanell to start during the first two months of the season.
One other small point, most of the rushes Ward had were probably of the scrambling variety. Maybe my memory is betraying me, but I can’t recall many called QB runs, even for Charlie.
Still overall, a good argument and article, Fsued.
On scrambling ...
This would actually play to my argument. With even more designed runs in the offense, the injury risk is higher (scrambling QB’s often get in the habit of hook sliding — not the case when are running the option).
On Felder, I have a TOTALLY different memory than you two — which could very well play to my age. My memory is that he was viewed as not having, ahem, the field presence to be a starter for FSU.
Yes, Brad Johnson lit it up in multiple sports in Black Mountain, but he was never anything more than a dropback passer.
On the succession plan, I sure didn’t mean to leave the impression that the plan was followed to a T all during the Bowden era — it was merely a stated goal which was fouled up on the ocassions you mentioned by injuries, transfers, etc.
I remember when Felder left for baseball and it was reported that
Charlie Ward would be our starting quarterback in 1992. Charlie… WARD?!?? You mean that terrible punter from back in 89 who shanked every other punt 20 yards with the wind, CHARLIE WARD??!?!?? (He wasn’t that bad actually, but John Wimberly did take over for him at the end of the 89 campaign).
The GT game made me more suspicious than hopeful. It was a miserable performance that we barely survived. Great comeback in the 4th, but being down 21-7 late was unfamiliar territory. Big wins over Maryland, Tulane and UF at the end of the season and an Orange Bowl win solidified Ward’s fame by the end of his first season. It wasn’t without grumbling and concern though.
We had just lost two capable QBs in Weldon and Johnson and then our likely starter for 92, Kenny Felder signed with the Brewers. So, it seemed like here is Charlie Ward, our 4th best option, our former punter, who couldnt even keep that job.
The reason I mentioned the GT game was
that was when FSU had to go into more two minute offense for practically the whole fourth quarter. Coming out of that game, Scott (the OC then) and Richt (the QB coach) adjusted the offense to be more like a two minute offense all game, thus the “fast break” offense was born.
And don’t forget, that punter was also a wide receiver as well as fourth or fifth string QB. and in a nice little “what if” – had Chris Weinke not gone on to baseball first, in the 1991 season, FSU would have had a QB depth chart of Weldon, Johnson, Felder, Ward and Weinke. Would one have changed position? And the most likely of those being — Ward?
by Wild@Heart Nole on Nov 24, 2009 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
Let's Get the QB Succession Straight
Here are the starting QB’s for FSU since 1984:
1984-Eric Thomas
1985- Chip Ferguson/Danny McManus
1986-1987 Danny McManus
1988-Chip Ferguson
1989-PT Willis
1990-Brad Johnson/Casey Weldon
1991-Casey Weldon
1992-1993-Charlie Ward
1994-1995 Danny Kanell
1996-1997 Thad Busby
1998-2000 Chris Weinke
2001-2004 Chris Rix
2005-2007 Drew Weatherford
2008-Present, Christian Ponder
Weldon and Johnson battled for the starting QB job in 1990. Brad Johnson won the battle, but lost the starting job after the Auburn game that year. Weldon took over and didn’t look back. Felder and Ward battled in 1992, but Felder did go pro in baseball. You are right about Kanell. He had to come in as a true freshman in ‘92 due to Charlie’s INT troubles. I don’t know if the GT game that year was infamous. I look at that game as a turning pt. in the program. FSU didn’t have much confidence coming back on teams before that game ( and the Clemson game that year). The GT game showed them that they could. It sent GT into a tailspin for several years after that. Kendra would have started in 1998, but he tore his ACL in the Spring game. We may have had a championship that year if Kendra or Weinke had been healthy.
Anyway, that is the QB succession history. I would like to see Fisher adapt the QB succession planning to some degree. It does work and provides stability.
I think you can also
give credit To Richt who did a great job developing the QB’s in the glory years.
I blame the whole lost decade on Jared Jones
Just kidding… kinda, it would have saved us from having to deal with Rix for 4 years
by vanillathrilla83 on Nov 23, 2009 8:26 PM EST reply actions
again..
goes back to the coaching.. tebow wouldve turned out just as bad under jeff’s direction and rix couldve been a superstar under urban’s
2 years of Rix would have been just right
I know his 4 years had a lot of bright spots but maybe he could have fit all those into 2 years and avoided some of his antics (parking, exams). I’d love to say look how much he improved, but if I remember correctly, his QB rating and other stats just got worse after the first year, goes to show you how terrible of a coach JB was. Maybe if Jones was there he could have taught Jeff a thing or two.
by vanillathrilla83 on Nov 23, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
Rix also never had any senior leadership from another QB showing him the ropes..
kinda like Ponder is supposedly doing with EJ now.. Rix was thrown right into the battle with Jeffys offensive scheme.. if there was ever one that existed!
..senior leadership is what succession plan provides.. watching someone else do it before you!
I went to FSU in 2001 same year Rix started as a RS Freshman
As much as I hate to say anything nice about Rix and all the pain he caused us as fans, the truth is he never had a chance. Give him Richt or Jimbo or anyone that has any idea of how to game plan on offense and how to coach a QB and with the defenses we had those years he was there, he could have been a great one and even taken us to another NC game. Think about the supporting cast of Greg Jones, Anquin, Javon Walker, along with top 10 defenses who never left the field because our play call on offense was so predictable even us at home knew what every play call was just by what formation was on the field. My point is with all the talent he showed his first year at FSU and with a hoss in Greg Jones behind him and great receivers that could go and make plays all we needed was a decent coach to develop that offense. Our defense still kept us in games back then so we didn’t need much from the offense, just being able to stay on the field for more then 3 plays at a time would have been enough to have at least a couple more 10 win seasons EVEN with Rix as the QB. I blame all of that on Jeffery, he truly was the worst offensive coordinator I have ever seen have a job for that long after continuously doing nothing with so much talent.
and the worst part is..
Bobby still probably thinks hiring Jeff was a great decision and he was the best OC ever and still mad at FSU for getting rid of him.. such is the blind love of a parent I guess!
I blame the decade on Joe Mauer
Can’t believe he would drop his FSU commitment to be the 1st pick in the MLB draft and current AL MVP. He was the future. Without him, we had to fall back on Adrian McPherson. At least that guy knew how to gamble in big game situations.
What a jerk
"It boils down to one of two things: It's either the horses or the jockeys. And we think we have some pretty good horses."
Which QB in the lost decade had the most raw talent as a passer?
Everyone said XL was space age talent, but I want to say Rix had better passing skills.
I'd say Rix
He threw the prettiest sideline jump ball ever. Executed exactly how Jeffy imagined it would work.
Jared Jones
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Nov 24, 2009 9:20 AM EST up reply actions
Who was that kid who caught lyme disease from being bitten by a tick? He gets my vote.
Rix sucked sucked sucked sucked sucked!!!!! If he could have followed the old addage “do no harm” we could have had some great seasons. I hated him. Then he had the off-field arrogant antics. I surprised he wasn’t named Bowden. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone did a family tree and found out he was anephew or something.
He looked pretty good from what I recall.
It’s hard to say though. During the JB years, the QBs looked so shitty that alsmost anyone who came in to replace them looked good, comparatively speaking. Then they would play a little and become molded into the crud cast that JB created. Jeffy was like Pigpen from the Peanuts cartoon: Everything he touched turned into a big mess and a cloud of dust.
I don’t think Sexton played much, but I recall feeling uplifted after the Rix years and disappointed when he got taken out by a tick. The next bright spot wasn’t until Ponder. I remember seeing Ponder enter a game a couple of years ago in the fourth quarter late in the season. I think the first two QBs were injured. The announcers didn’t know what to expect, but after CP7 made a few throws I remeber them saying “This kid looks like a young Joe Montana.”
Ponder came in Against VT in 2007..Weatherford hurt, and Lee suspended.
It was for much longer than the 4th Qtr.
I was long gone by the Sexton era, but I am under the impression that a tick and lyme disease had nothing to do with his problems.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
I think the stories said...
He was caught running naked in the streets or acting like he was a lunatic or something. Then it was explained that he would be okay, he was bitten by a tick and had gotten Lyme Disease so he wouldn’t be playing football anymore. I don’t know anything about Lyme Disease, but it sounded strange.
his symptoms
and behavior were entirely consistent with Lyme Disease.
by Wild@Heart Nole on Nov 26, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
Inside sources say combo
I didn’t question the Lyme disease story when it cam out b/c I know crap about medicine. After I saw Miaminole’s “shooms” comment, I contacted someone who was VERY close to this incident. They told me that his weird behavior could have been caused by Lyme disease and that he did have it. They also said that when he went to TMH, there was a combination of Lyme disease and substances. The source wouldn’t specify what substances. Apparently, the substance stuff was a way of dealing with the stress of being the starting qb and the stress was too much for him to want to return.
Actually
the Lyme Disease only kept him out of football one season. But in that time he couldn’t work out or such, and after his recovery from Lyme, he quit rather than try to work back into football shape.
by Wild@Heart Nole on Nov 26, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
YEAH
Bowden did everything wrong. What in the hell were we doing ever cheering for these guys. Now that he’s senile… everything you know is wrong.
It's just an excuse
Can’t depend on having RsJr’s all the time
by Bud Elliott on Nov 24, 2009 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
Yep. if you had a rsJr at every position in BCS-level competition
you would have a confident and experienced team, I think
by NorthernHaze on Nov 24, 2009 2:16 AM EST up reply actions
Screw it, let's blame it on Budd Thacker
He screwed us over at QB for a whole decade. Yeah, all his fault.
I blame it on Chuck Amato. If CTC had never left for NCST, we would have at least 5 NC's because he would have helped make Jeff a superstar and our next Head Coach.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
Great piece Ed. I think we should try to take one quality QB every year because as you stated, the game has changed and the injuries, formations, and attrition means you need 3 quatity QB's on the roster every season.
Also, Bowdenistas is my new favorite word which will be supplementing Bowdenites. Please be advised that “Bowdenistas” is now property of Tomahawk Nation and you have lost exclusive rights to the word. In other words, I am stealing it.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
I google imaged "Bowdenistas" and came up with nothing
I now leave it in your hands Frank to make sure that doesn’t happen again this time tomorrow.
"It boils down to one of two things: It's either the horses or the jockeys. And we think we have some pretty good horses."
You try to take a quality QB each year BUT
the truth is about every other year the talent will be lesser – you can’t realistically expect to take a top 20 QB every year, but every other year.
I remember many a quote from Bowden about taking a quality QB each year, but each year you sign one, typically the following year it is really hard. So you either take a lesser QB or diamond in the rough that no one else sees as a diamond, or you don’t take a QB.
So probably the best you can do is to recruit a great QB every other year, then the sleeper in between. That gives you every other year quality senior QB, quality sophomore, and quality redshirting freshman, with a couple of others on the roster. In the years in between, a quality jr, quality rs fr, and two others. Of course, I’m simplifying by not counting for attrition due to injury or the like.
A better, slightly alternative approach may be to do the quality QB prospect every other year, with a quality athlete with QB talents and ambition in the inbetween years. If they look like they can work out as QB entering their third year, they can choose to stay there and compete. If not, there’s the alternative of a position switch.
by Wild@Heart Nole on Nov 24, 2009 5:10 PM EST reply actions
BB would likely explain the difference as Ponder, not Jimbo.
How many times has he said in his post game comments that one player can make a team? (when talking about individual players on other teams)
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