Realistically, next year's defense...
by AMFKNole on Nov 25, 2009 10:56 PM EST
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PrintHow good can they be? They are going to be a talented unit (based on recruiting grades, at least). Were we to run a standard 4-3 with what I imagine we have coming back next year, we'd be looking at 4 starters (Bradham, White, McDaniel, Reid) who were 5 * recruits coming out of high school, 6 who were 4 * recruits (Carr, Williams, Jenkins, McCray, Jenje, Moody) and 1 3 * recruit (Parks). I imagine the numbers would bare out similarly if we were to run some type of 3-4 Hybrid next year. (Yes I know that this lineup still leaves us somewhat small up front, think of me as banking on us adding substantial size in the offseason weightlifting program).
So my question is, with the proper position coaching and an updated scheme, how good can we be? Top Half in the country? Top quarter (I doubt)? I think there's no way we'd be elite so quickly, but how good do you think we can be how soon?
A guy like White has clearly been warped by not having a coach around (and not having Everette Brown here to teach him the position). Could a coach whose background DOESN'T lie on the offensive side of the ball teach him the correct technique for his position to, at the very least, make him serviceable?
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lots of assumptions
that I don’t know bear out.
First of all, the new defensive staff that Jimbo (and it will be Jimbo) hires will probably reflect a “multiple” defense. Meaning situationally it could be 4-3 or 3-4, or even 3-3 (5 defensive backs).
Second of all, there are many indicators that FSU is heavily pursuing several JUCO types, with the idea of quickly infusing size and DL depth. Already Anthony McCloud (6-3 295) is committed, and I believe scheduled to enroll in the spring. That puts him on similar footing with the returning DL players – learning the new scheme and coaches. Charles Deas is being reported as all but committed to FSU – he was recruited by Jimbo Fisher himself to LSU, but ended up in JC. Deas lists at 6-5 315. There are some signs of other JUCO DL joining them.
Third, this is not to mention Damien Jacobs (6-3, 294) and Cameron Erving (6-5 285), two high school commitments.
Fourth, I don’t think you accounted for position changes. With just the additions I mentioned plus any others DL who are added with returners Moses McCray and Jacobbi McDaniels, we would have enough on the interior to permit Everett Dawkins (rumored to be in the 260s or more now) and Demonte McAllister (with size and a frame to build to 270+ by next season) to move to DE. I think under a new staff, some of the current DEs could see themselves moved to linebacker. And maybe the new staff thinks a 235+ lb Nick Moody would be better utilized as linebacker,
FSU could rapidly have a much bigger defense by next season. I think if it bears out, FSU with the increased size could jump into the top 50 defenses, and in the ACC the defense could join the middle of the pack.
by Wild@Heart Nole on Nov 26, 2009 12:59 AM EST reply actions
To amplify my point
remember what happened from 2006 to 2007 with all the offensive staff minus one replaced? especially along the defensive line?
by Wild@Heart Nole on Nov 26, 2009 1:03 AM EST up reply actions
I agree
Added size will help. I think McCray will be better next year with the use of two arms as well.
I think added size in the LB will help also.
Not sure why they do not let our LB get to 240+ as long as they can maintain their speed and fluidity. To me, we should mimic the successful NFL defenses that work against almost any offense you throw at it.
I think our biggest issue is still safety play, we need some stars to emerge from the safety spot.
When I heard they are trying to keep Bradham's weight down
to the 240, I thought “why?”. If he gets to 255 or so and maintains his speed and such, I think he could be an excellent middle linebacker, if he gets much bigger, he could be an excellent defensive end. And if he maintains his speed and agility at 260, nothing wrong about having that size at OLB, as long as there’s no indication that that kind of weight risks his lower extremity joints.
by Wild@Heart Nole on Nov 27, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
I would like that too...
But sometimes over-bulking causes injury. And we definitely can’t let that happen to Bradham…
What about
that Carmon kid? The one whose 370-390 lbs? That would almost be like having 12 men on the field. Maybe he’s slow, but I think its fine if we put one monster in the middle of the line to plug the center so long as he can stop the inside runs.
Possibly Dorsey? What about CJ Mizell? And Joyner? It seems like a CB should be able to contribute right away b/c we play so much man D.
I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the guys who had high interest early on and have strayed would return or switch back to FSU.
Sunseri, Travis Jones, and T-Buck would all be great for recruiting.
well
b/c we play so much man D
who’s to say under the new defensive coordinator that will remain true?
by Wild@Heart Nole on Nov 26, 2009 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
Forgot
Wayne Dorsey (4 star JUCO DE – 6 ft 8 in, 255). Skinny for that height, if both are accurate, but at 6’8", he should be able to be a nice situational player at least, coming in on obvious passing downs to use his height to deny certain “passing lanes”, and could be a good threat as a middle rusher on kick, punt, etc block attempts.
by Wild@Heart Nole on Nov 26, 2009 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
I'd hope
so by 2011. My comments were with the expectation that he’d report at no more than 265, 270 at the outside. At 6’8" (if true and not really 6-6 or so), even for a DE, you’d like 280 for that height.
by Wild@Heart Nole on Nov 27, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
A couple of people saw Dorsey at the Maryland game
They think that 6’8 is his legit height.
It is not all coaching that is hurting the defense now
*But some new coaching blood could go a long way in helping
- some players playing hurt getting healthy could help
*another year of off season workouts could help
*some new players could have an immediate impact, but it is doubtful high school guys can contribute right away as stars (notice its harder for McDaniel to shine right away versus Greg Reid). JUCO guys can contribute there right away, but recruiting them seems more hit or miss than high school stars (see Marcus White..his problem is not all coaching…he looks rail thin when they show him and he crashes in, spins around more than the younger DES, who have the same coach…the same coach who coached Everette Brown, Kameron Wimbley, etc. )
will they? Who knows
no i think it is pretty much all coaching
The defense isn’t young, they aren’t just not “picking up on the schemes yet” or “inexperienced” or anything like that. They are much more veteran than the O is. Playing hurt…. it’s football most players play banged up, if you’re betting on a low injury season next year to be your savior, good luck. Last year’s D was extremely lucky to have so few injuries that kept players off the field, not likely to happen again soon, but even if it does, players will still be playing hurt next year, and the year after, pretty much as long as football is played.
I think we have whiffed with a lot of JUCOs because of coaching, they seem to make things happen in JUCO ball show up here and are nobodys…. hmm sounds like someone isn’t instructing these boys how to play within the system, how to not lose contain, or anything that goes into disciplined football (vs. freelancing – i seriously wish cancer on Jody Allen and CTC… not a lot of cancer you know, just some).
And if you’re seriously giving Jody Allen credit for the likes of Everette Brown and Kameron Wimbley, stop watching football, especially Florida State Football.
It’s not just the “coaching blood” that could go a long way, it’s the “Coaching Minds”
Don’t mean to be aggressive, this season just sucks and I’ve never looked forward to offseason so much in my life
NoleRaised
Hey man I realize that you are frustrated about this year, as all of us are. However wishing “CANCER” on anyone is poor form. I’m sure you didn’t mean it how it came out.
by hardhitter5050 on Nov 26, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
If everything breaks right, I'd say we could be in the top 40.
But that means getting the coaching combinations, winning back some recruits, having the questionable ones qualify. It will take some time for the guys to learn the new system and people learn by making mistakes. But you can’t learn if you don’t know what you’re doing wrong, which is where coaching comes in. Our players are very hungry to get better and I think they’ll absorb the coaching like a sponge. They are not used to losing. Despite all their frustrations, the younger guys haven’t quit. One thing we have plenty of is potential. The players and recruits who bring this D back have a great opportunity to make a name for themselves. If the improvement is dramatic (meaning we return to the top 40), we will win plenty of games, get the good TV coverage, and the pre-game stories will feature CP7 and whichever defensive players rise up to become the leaders. Once the younger guys get comfortable with the new coaches and system, we could be looking at a top 20 D the following year.
Yeah, the exact lineup wasn't what I was getting at
But more so, with that much talent lining up with the correct coaching how good does everyone think they can be.
Does anyone have any data on past talented teams who were coached by inept fools one season and then dedicated smart defensive coaches and the improvement that followed?
by AMFKNole on Nov 26, 2009 9:29 AM EST via mobile reply actions
funny you should ask
Just reading on the Colorado-Nebraska game.
Nebraska’s defense was 112th in total defense in 2007, 55th in 2008 (first year under Bo Pellini and a new staff), and is currently 8th in the nation.
Scoring it was 114th in 2007, 80th in 2008, and this year is running 3rd.
by Wild@Heart Nole on Nov 26, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Pellini has worked wonders with his squad
And I expect that to happen when our new DC is announced. Don’t expect a miracle overnight but we’ll see a huge difference. I want our D staff to be HUNGRY!
They will be salivating at the mouth with the talent (especially young talent)
they’ll have to work with. Its really mind blowing, a lot of these kids will be like clean slates. Sadly many of them will have to UN-learn bad behavior and habits.
Another thing to think about with the Pelini example is the difference in talent he inherited.
Pelini did not inherit the amount of talent we have on the current roster. We should make similiar if not a little better jump with the right defensive coaches.
I just hope that next year's defense can get a stop on GT....
"If lessons were learned in defeat, our team is getting a great education." -Murray Warmath
we don't play GT next year
unless it is in the ACC championship game.
by Wild@Heart Nole on Nov 26, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
How many players are seniors at GT?
If their roster is still there and no early NFL draft entries, then I bet we could pencil in GT for ACC game next year.
Imagine if they could find a defense also….
I just meant GT would make it.
We have a lot of improvement to make before we can think about the ACC championship game.
Our defense will turn around quickly IMO
we’re setting ourselves to start out in a pretty good position and the c/o 2010 looks like it may shake out pretty damn well on the defensive side of the ball. We’ll be bringing in a scheme more suited to stop modern offenses, increasing the size and depth in the front 7 immensely and bringing in coaches that are competent in both coaching and recruiting. We will be a top 15 and maybe top 10 defense in 2011 and the recruiting class that year will be quite impressive I think.
3-4 next year.....100% sure!!!! reliable source..........
Can’t wait!!! We ran a lot of the 3-4 with the zone blitz’s against V-Tech in the ACC title game a few years ago and it shut Vick down…….I wish we still had Kevin Steele…..now the dc at Clemson……let’s shock the world on Saturday!!!!!! Go Noles!!!!!!
I've heard much that it will be "multiple"
by which it was explained that “multiple” means using more scheming, rotating of players, and using 4-3, 3-4, even 3-3 or 4-4 depending on opponent and situation. Apparently that’s what Jimbo wants and capability of teaching and running it is a necessary qualification for the new DC and his staff.
That includes running 3-4 as a base against some opponents, and some situations against the rest.
by Wild@Heart Nole on Nov 27, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
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