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In the Treatment Room: Florida State's Christian Ponder Separates Shoulder in Loss to Clemson Tigers

In the 40-24 loss to the Clemons Tigers in Death Valley, the Seminoles may have lost more than the game. Late in the fourth quarter, Christian Ponder suffered a separated his throwing shoulder while forcing Clemson Safety DeAndre McDaniel out of bounds during his return of Ponder's fourth interception of the game. Ponder could have easily tried to tackle him high, dive at the turf or simply get out of the way. Instead, he decided to take McDaniel head on. Unfortunately, as soon as Ponder stood up after the hit, it was clear that he had injured his shoulder. The positioning of his arm on the sideline suggested that he was in pain.

In this edition of 'In the Treatment Room,' TNation takes a closer look at shoulder separations and what this might mean for Christian Ponder and the remainder of the Seminoles' season.

Star-divide

Unfortunately, the shoulder is one of the more complicated joints in the body, which is also why it is one of the most dynamic joints in the body. Think about all of the various directions you can move your shoulder and compare that to your knee or hip. The ability of the shoulder to have so much movement results from the multiple boney and muscular elements in that area as illustrated in this image:

http://www.niams.nih.gov/Health_Info/Shoulder_Problems/images/shoulder_qa.gif

Photo from here.

The three primary bones that make up the shoulder joint are the humerus (your upper arm), the clavicle (your collar bone) and the scapula (that triangular bone on your). We must also consider that sandwiched between all of that is your rib cage. The other important elements to note in the photo are the rotator cuff (which is composed of the tendons of the four muscles listed above) the bursa (which is a fluid filled sac that acts as a cushion) and the Acromioclavicular Joint (the is where a portion of the scapula and clavicle come together). Here are two other images of the shoulder that demonstrate the complexity of the joint and show the neurovascular tissues that run through that area:

                       http://www.ganfyd.org/images/d/d9/Shoulder.pngShoulder joint

Photos from here and here.

Typically, when athletes suffer a shoulder separation, it occurs at the Acromioclavicluar (AC) joint. The AC joint is a key part of the shoulder in that it allows rotation in three different planes: moving your arm out to your side (abduction and adduction), rotation of the clavicle and permitting your scapula to move away from your body. The joint is supported by two ligaments: AC ligament and Coracoclavicular. The upper portion (superior) of the AC ligament is the most important ligament in stabilizing the joint for daily activities.  You can feel your AC joint by running your fingers out to the lateral edge of your clavicle. Lift your arm out to your side. Where you feel that flexion/rotation point is your AC joint.

A shoulder separation typically occurs when there is a direct blow to the shoulder, just like Ponder's hit, or falling on to an outstretched arm, like Lance Armstrong falling off his bike. Keep in mind that a shoulder separation and dislocation are two entirely different injuries. A dislocation occurs when the head of the humerus is forced out of the joint. This is the injury that athletes get their shoulder "popped back in." The separation occurs, as described above, at the acromioclavicular joint. The most common presenting sign of the separation is pain, which can be quite severe. Other signs of trauma to the shoulder may also be apparent.

If a shoulder separation is suspected, an X-ray is typically performed to help grade the injury and to identify and possible fractures.

Here is a normal shoulder x-ray:

http://stemcelldoc.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/shoulder_x-ray_2.jpg

Photo from here.

Here is an image of a separated shoulder:

http://blog.brianschiff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/ac_joint2.jpg

Photo from here.

As you can see in the image on the bottom, there joint between the acromion and clavicle is...separated. There isn't that nice alignment that we see in the upper image.

AC Separations are graded based on the severity using the Rockwood Classification:

Grade I: A sprain without a complete tear of either ligament.

Grade II: Tear of the AC ligament with an intact coracoclavicular ligament. The end of the clavicle is not raised.

Grade III: The AC and Coracoclavicular ligaments are both torn. The end of the clavicle is raised 5mm.

Grade IV: The end of the clavicle is pushed behind the AC joint. There is usually a clear deformity at the end of the clavicle.

The treatment of a shoulder separation is dependent on the grade of the tear. As these injuries are quite painful, they are treated with NSAIDs (Motrin etc) and Narcotics and ice. With Type I injuries, a sling is typically used until range of motion exercises can be done without pain. Type II injuries usually require a sling for one to two weeks followed by rehabilitation. Some say that heavy lifting and contact sports should be avoided for 6-12 weeks after this kind of injury. But as we saw with Sam Bradford, he returned rather quickly...but re-injured his shoulder. If the ligament isn't allowed to completely heal, you can easily turn a Grade II sprain into a Grade III.

In general, Grade III and higher separations require surgery. Depending on the type of individual, some Grade III injuries may be managed medically. Surgery typically involves an open procedure (meaning not arthroscopic) to repair the damaged ligaments and structures. This can either be done with various devices screwed across the joint. Patients will remain in a sling for approximately 2 weeks, after which rehab will begin. If a non-absorbent screw is used, it will be removed 6 weeks after the original surgery.

Grade I and Grade II injuries usually do very well and recover to pre-injury ability. Some individuals do report chronic mild pain, but are typically not significant.

We don't have the full details of Ponder's injury yet. It will be likely that he gets an MRI to evaluate the extent of damage to the ligaments involved. Let's hope that it is only a Grade I or II sprain, avoiding surgery. Given Ponder's potential, one would hope that the athletic trainers and coaching staff will shut him down for the rest of the season. Forcing the issue with a shoulder separation can lead to disastrous results. Ask Oklahoma. If Ponder is able to return, Florida would likely be the first game that he would be available. With the potential that he has demonstrated and the trajectory that this offense has shown, let Ponder recover and look toward a better year next year.

What are your thoughts? Was last night Ponder's last game of the season? Should it be his last game?

0 recs  |  Comment 53 comments |

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In many ways, this may help us in the long run.

If it hadn’t yet been determined, I would expect that this isn’t the conclusion CP would want for his last year, and that he comes back for another season. With EJ getting playing time, we will be in a better position to transition beyond next year.

by TEMPORARY LIKE ACHILLES on Nov 8, 2009 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

who is behind EJ?

in other words who is third string, God forbid.

by Okinole on Nov 8, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Secord?

>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em

by FrankDNole on Nov 8, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

We will...

..also have Clint Trickett in the 2010 class as well. So we will be deep in QB depth.

Ponder, EJ Manuel, Will Secord, Clint Trickett and Becker.

by CPNole on Nov 8, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Bye Bye 2010 Draft

I say shelve him and get EJ some reps

by RaysnNoles on Nov 8, 2009 11:52 AM EST reply actions  

Sit him.

Gonna lose 2 out of the next 3 anyway.

by FSUSOM on Nov 8, 2009 11:54 AM EST reply actions  

Sit him and let him get healthy for Jimbo's first year as HC.

It is time for EJ to show us what he is capable of. Last night’s limited performance, IMO, is not indicative of what he will bring to the table.

>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em

by FrankDNole on Nov 8, 2009 11:55 AM EST reply actions  

Receivers weren't really running for him either

It seemed that everyone by the mid fourth was just like—eh—its over…

But yeah, the receivers were pulling up early on EJ’s routes

by Trus1te on Nov 8, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I wasn't expecting much from this season

CP7 is our best player and should sit the remainder of the season and recover 100% from his injury. If EJ can get us bowl eligible, sweet… But I think our bowl streak ends.

by CSI Nole on Nov 8, 2009 11:56 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

Let him rest

Give EJ some playing time and let CP7 heal up for next year.

by REtaxNole on Nov 8, 2009 12:02 PM EST reply actions  

Absolutely

 Ponder needs to heal….. Fully. Do we have any ex-qbs on the board? Would his ribs potentially have caused him to throw the ints? Its hard to say, i’ve seen some risky passes this year but they always were just out of the reach of the defender. How much of a setback was last night? I hope E.J.‘s ready next weekend. Winston-Salem isn’t the best place to break in a young QB.

by Scalpemall on Nov 8, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Just an opinion

I think the injury combined with Clemson being the best secondary he faced all year (my opinion, don’t know if that is based on facts) and the hostile enviroment just all added up to a bad performance. I would venture to guess that he started pressing after the first two interceptions.

I don’t expect to win another one but frankly don’t care either, its all about the future in my eyes. The ACC is paying FSU back every week for the years of dominance we had over them. Expect Maryland and Wake to play inspired football against us just because they had been our whipping boys for so long.

by diablonole on Nov 8, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I played quarterback in high school

and earned 2 cracked ribs in a nasty hit. I had a mirror image of RIDDELL in my skin. I couldn’t LIFT my arms for 2 weeks, let alone throw a football.

God knows I got respect for Ponder playing through that pain last season and this year too, he’s more of a man than me and I got no problem admitting it.

by freshcollegeboy on Nov 8, 2009 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

EJ time

I personally feel it would be EJ time following such an injury, regardless of the season potential. But given what is left to play for, this is a no doubter.

by DixieNole on Nov 8, 2009 12:08 PM EST reply actions  

Thanks Cubbie

We’ve got to sit him for the year. Can’t risk his future career for a season like this. FSUn is right—let him rehab and hopefully he’ll be ready for the summer.

>>---l>

by DKfromVA on Nov 8, 2009 12:21 PM EST reply actions  

Thanks Christian

Christian has been the best QB we have had since Weinke. In my Opinion better than, but I agree it is time for him to rest. This season is done. Now we need to email and call the FSU board to force Bobby to retire this year. That way the football program can start to heal also.

by Trenaway on Nov 8, 2009 12:21 PM EST reply actions  

If we loose to Wake it is definitely going to be his last game of the season.

Even if we beat Wake I think it will most likely be his last game of this season.
With EJ, even though our offense will be less efficient I think we will have more explosive plays. When I watched the team in the summer, his deep ball was more accurate than Ponder’s. His long throws look a lot more natural and effortless than Ponder’s(not to say that there is anything wrong with Ponder’s throws). I also noticed that he can move laterally better out of the pocket and throw more accurately on the run than Ponder. I think that will create bigger plays down field. Also it doesn’t hurt to have a big healthy quarterback who’s got some decent wheels involved in our running game.

by revival on Nov 8, 2009 12:26 PM EST reply actions  

l-o-s-e

loose is the opposite of tight.

by nolestuff on Nov 8, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

LOL grammar Nazi most likely a t-y-p-o

by Renegade_NOL3 on Nov 8, 2009 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

We were barely winning any games with Ponder having an amazing season. I don’t see EJ doing enough in his first meaningful playing time.

by 38Noles on Nov 8, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't see us putting together drives either but...

EJ is healthy and his running threat will help us hit some big plays down field. I think we will still be competitive. At the very least I don’t think we’ll get blown out until the last game.

by revival on Nov 8, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Jimbo will have to call plays to keep EJ healthy since there is no one behind him. I’m not sure he’s any better runner than Ponder anyway, though he is at least healthy.

by 38Noles on Nov 8, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I hope EJ has better sliding instincts than CP7.

He has a wider frame and I have nothing to back this up but I just have a feeling that he is going to be more durable in the run game when he takes hits; just by seeing how his frame is built.

by revival on Nov 8, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Man, I want what is best for Ponder's health

But I thought this year we would at least not get blown out by UF. I though it might be more of a shootout.

by nolestuff on Nov 8, 2009 12:51 PM EST reply actions  

I think the UF game would be a blowout even with a healthy Ponder.

UF will play to their strengths and will decimate our defense…I can see 50+ being put on us. However, and here is the biggest difference, UF defense is a juggernaut. I don’t think anyone we have played so far would come close to that dominance. I think our offense would have to play beyond perfect to even think about a shootout. I know this offense is top 10, actually maybe top 5 in the nation but defense and a strong running game win championships and both of those are what UF does best.

by diablonole on Nov 8, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

UF's D

UF’s D looks to be faster than Clemson’s and actually more physical. If we had a healthy Ponder I don’t think we would scored more than 20 pts. It may be better now since we have an excuse for not scoring against them. Plus UF has a top ten rushing offense; I don’t think we could keep up since we have such a weak defense.

by revival on Nov 8, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I think we should use this game just to be physical

I am not saying I want our players to hurt their players, just play extremely physical. UF is becoming known for its brutal style of play and is slowly building that reputation across the league. Teams are intimidated before UF walks on the field. We have no chance of winning but we can inflict some pain and punishment in the process of losing. Take away that mental edge UF has now with us. Didn’t Dekoda Watson say something to the effect of how they were intimidated last year before the game (could be mistaken but I thought he did). After watching Ala vs LSU last night I realized one thing, LSU had come to play a physical brand of football. They lost a lot of players, and with it any chance of winning the game, but they wanted to imbed into Ala that they were not intimidated. Tenn did it in the game versus Alabama too. Those seeds aren’t fruitless either, it can make them dominant team more tenative the next time they play.

Awww who the hell am I kidding, if we can’t win, I at least want some damn Gators in pain! Seriously though, we need to send a message that it ends here, you may win the war but you will suffer a lot of casualaties doing it.

by diablonole on Nov 8, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

The possibility of injuries a week before the all important Bama game are the best defense we will have against the Gators. LOL

by 38Noles on Nov 8, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

We are too young.

On defense I only can see Bradham and Mincey with the physical capabilities to inflict that kind of pain. Everyone else is too immature physically to do that kind of stuff. They need more years in a collage strength training program. We will have a bunch of TRUE freshmen and sophomores going up against a bunch of REDSHIRT juniors and seniors. As for the senior outside of Mincey an P. Rob., well I think FSUn covered their physical problems a lot over the off-season.

On the bright side I think next year we will be mature enough and bring in some juco guys to deliver that kind of play.

by revival on Nov 8, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Nah dude

Next year is the year we don’t get blown out by UF. Will we win? I hope so. If we have decent defensive coaching next year, I like our chances.

2009 Rays Baseball: Welp.....we'll try again in 2010
2009 FSU Football: Seriously, Bobby. Go Away.

by JMB on Nov 8, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

No More Ponder...for 2009

Yes, he needs to shut it down for the season.

by Kellumbear on Nov 8, 2009 12:58 PM EST reply actions  

Personally, I say...

…let him heal up. Our season is (has been) over. I dont want to see one of the best QBs in the country further injure his shoulder. Let EJ get some play time and we will start fresh in 2010.

by CPNole on Nov 8, 2009 1:35 PM EST reply actions  

If we lose to Wake next week, we should shut him down

No reason to trot him out in Gainesville if he’s not 100%. We weren’t going to win that game even if he was.

2009 Rays Baseball: Welp.....we'll try again in 2010
2009 FSU Football: Seriously, Bobby. Go Away.

by JMB on Nov 8, 2009 2:23 PM EST reply actions  

3 birds - 1 stone

This injury could be a blessing in disguise…The season has been considered by many, after the loss, over. So with that being said, we should look at this in a positive light. If Ponder shuts it down for the year, we have nothing to lose, and at the same time I think 3 big positives can emerge from the situation.

1 – Ponder stays out for the rest of the season, and while doing so – heals his rib injuries. He will have a full off-season to heal both the ribs and the shoulders, and will be back 100 % next year
2 – Ponder will no longer be going to the NFL – we will have him next year
3 – EJ will get playing time. As some have said above, this will give him an easy transition when it comes time to start in 2011…I am looking forward to watching him next game, and seeing what he can do with the first string offense behind him.

by LETSGONOLES on Nov 8, 2009 2:31 PM EST reply actions  

PS - Great article

The Shoulder illustration, along with the fact that you are getting fan feedback, truly show that this is one of the better sites out there

by LETSGONOLES on Nov 8, 2009 2:32 PM EST reply actions  

PLEASE sit Ponder

Let’s look to 2010. Get Ponder healthy. Get E.J. some playing time. Hang it up at the end of November and let Jimbo hammer the recruiting trail with his new DC.

by ScalpEM_TX on Nov 8, 2009 6:26 PM EST reply actions  

1) Get ponder healthy for 2010
2) DO NOT FORCE Ponder back for uf…uf is 2x better on D than Clemson
3) POSITVE…..EJ will get some valuable PT this season

by Fredric on Nov 8, 2009 6:37 PM EST reply actions  

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