Preview and Game Thread: Florida State Seminoles vs Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets, 5:30pm EST
Florida St. Seminoles at Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets, Dec 20, 2009 5:30 PM EST
Once again, the Seminoles got the job done and moved to 9-2 on the year with a 76 - 72 victory over the Auburn Tigers. Solmon Alabi had another big night, scoring 22 points for the second game in a row. Michael Snaer contributed 14 points in 24 minutes of play. With 13:34 to go, the Seminoles had a 14 point lead and seemed to be on their way to an easy victory. However, the Tigers stormed back and tied the game with 6:50 to go, resulting in the close finish. The Seminoles have are now 2-1 on the year against the SEC. Tonight, Florida State opens ACC play against Georgia Tech in Atlanta. Take a look inside for more on the Auburn game, a detailed preview including video break down and a must read discussion with the guys at From the Rumble Seat (Georgia Tech's SBnation blog).

vs.

Game Time: 5:30pm EST
Television: FSN
As I was unable to watch the Auburn game, I can only comment on what the stats demonstrate. Why Florida State lost a 14 point lead in the second half? I can guess, but I will leave that up to those who saw the game to comment. There were some positives to note. Solmon Alabi had another nice game, scoring 22 points and pulling down 9 rebounds. Michael Snaer contributed 14 points off the bench and it seems that the offense is showing signs of life again. The Seminoles shot an eFG% of 55.3 and limited the Tigers to an eFG% of 45.1%. As stated in the preview, with the exception of one game, Auburn has yet to win when it shoots an eFG% less than 50%. While all of those stats are nice, Auburn generated 10 steals and the Seminoles finished the game with 19 turnovers, with only 15 assists, resulting in a TO% of 26.4. Here are the Statsheet.com charts for the game:
Compared to previous performances, the shape of the game flow curve is significantly improved, with limited plateaus. In order to be successful in the ACC, the flat parts of the graph need to be few and far between. Of other notes fro the game, Derwin Kitchen had seven assists and only three turnovers. But, he did go 0-6 from the floor. Terrance Shannon made an appearance and Ryan Reid got the start over Xavier Gibson. Gibson was limited to only nine minutes of game play. Even if the game was close than many expected, a win is a win and this is helps the resume as it is an SEC opponent. Now it is time to see what this team is really made of and get a taste of conference play.
The Intro to the Yellow Jackets:
Florida State heads to Atlanta to take on an 8-1 Georgia Tech team that is coming off a 12 point victory over Arkansas Pine Bluff. Last year, the Yellow Jackets had a difficult run through the ACC, finishing a disappointing 2-14 in conference play. However, Paul Hewitt brought in one of the top recruiting classes in the country, adding five new players to his squad, including the highly ranked Derrick Favors. The Yellow Jackets are currently ranked #22 and #15 in the AP and ESPN/USA Today polls respectively. They are 29th in the Ken Pomeroy rankings with an offensive efficiency of 108.6, 68th nationally, and a defensive efficiency of 88.0, 23rd nationally. The only blemish on the Georgia Tech's record is a 63-59 loss to Dayton. Their victories including the following teams: Florida A&M, George Mason, Boston, Mercer, Siena, Southern Cal, Chattanooga and Arkansas Pine Bluff.
The Conversation with From the Rumble Seat:
Before we get further into the preview, Tomahawk Nation had the opportunity to discuss tonight's match up with the writers of From the Rumble Seat, SB Nation's Georgia Tech Blog. Thanks to Bird and Co for their excellent responses. They run a great site over there so take a few minutes to check out their work, especially with their upcoming matchup with Iowa. Check out their site for our response to their questions. Here are their answers to our questions: (Please visit their site to see our responses to their questions.)
1. Is Derrick Favors the real deal? He entered this season with so much hype. In what aspects of his game has he excelled? In what aspects of his game has he not lived up to expectation?
I think it's hard to talk about Favors without comparing him to Gani. Both players are dominant as individuals and unstoppable as a one-two punch. In our early season schedule, no one's really dealt with both of them effectively. That being said, Gani is the more refined basketball player. He has more low post moves and a smoother shot. He also has the most hustle of any player on our team. Derrick is a little bit more of a raw player and not quite the game changer that some of the most outrageous hype led us to believe. And maybe that's because we've got another great forward to compare him to directly.
Derrick's game is all about speed. He gets a ton of blocks and can get up the court with our trademark CPH transition offense. And sometimes his speed hurts him as he's leading the team in fouls/game. He's either too aggressive or the refs have just never seen a big man move to the ball as quick as Derrick can. Playing the refs' game is something Derrick hasn't quite picked up yet. And we're not hatin' on Derrick because FTRS believes this is the best front court since Chris Bosh and Ed Nelson.
2. Georgia Tech had one of the best recruiting classes in the Nation last year. Are they all living up to expectation?
Well, two fifths of our starters are freshmen. Almost all of our three point shots are being shot and made by freshmen. We think the season is a little too early to tell if the great freshmen play will translate into ACC ball but for right now we're very content. When talking about individual play, Mfon Udofia, our freshman point guard, has been the biggest bright spot thus far. He is fearless and an explosive scorer - all necessary attributes of a CPH point guard.
3. Last year was a difficult one for the Yellow Jackets. During the ACC tournament, there were signs of significant improvement. What has been the biggest improvement so far this year?
Last year was the end of the post-2004 recruiting class. I think most Tech fans feel like we had a ton of waste talent from 2005-2009. It was a group of highly recruited high school stars that just never meshed as a team. One night Ra'Sean Dickey would have 30 points and everyone else would suck or one night Anthony Morrow would make 25 three pointers but we'd still lose. There was no team identity. Every player was playing for himself.
I think that 2009 ACC Tournament run was made mostly by Lewis Clinch and Co. realizing it was all finally over. The 2009 ACCT was a final hurrah for an incredibly fruitless stretch of four years under Hewitt. The team had nothing to lose and played incredibly inspired basketball. It took four years of futility for Hewitt's squad to finally mature.
4. The common tie between the Seminoles and the Yellow Jackets is turnovers. Where are the turnovers coming from? Steals? Poor decisions? Is Shumpert a true point?
Let's run down our worst guys concerning T/O's. Iman Shumpert = not a great ball handler but is playing 2nd/3rd team point a lot. Mfon Udofia = freshman point guard finally playing against legit competition. Gani & Derrick = double and triple teams are forcing them into poor decisions. That's really our big issue. We probably should be undefeated right now but on our last real possession against Dayton, Hewitt put the ball in Iman's hands and he bounced it off his foot at half court...
I don't want to blame Iman for the Dayton loss as the whole team struggled in the final 5 minutes (going 1 for 4 from the field and giving up 4 turnovers). It was a collective failure but we've grown a lot since Dayton.
5. Will Georgia Tech live up to the hype? Where do you see the Yellow Jackets finishing the year in the ACC and what post season play will they see?
I think with the talent and depth we've got and the quality of the ACC this season, we should go 0.500 or better in conference. Our goal should be a 3 seed in the ACC Tournament and an at large birth in the NCAA's (in the 5-9 seed range). Needless to say, Hewitt needs to make an ACCT run and an NCAAT run to appease the restless Georgia Tech fans. His leash is the shortest it's ever been with the lack of postseason production he's had and the talent he's brought in over the past 5 years.
6. What is your impression of the ACC this year?
It seems young and talented. Teams are losing to garbage teams yet stepping up and beating big time OOC opponents so it's kind of setting up an exciting season. No one really knows until we really see conference play. Clemson always plays like a big man OOC but plays like a middler/bottom feeder come conference play. I think the only safe assumption is that UVA will be this year's version of last year's Georgia Tech.
7. The last time the Yellow Jackets were over .500 in the ACC was 2004. What are your thoughts on Paul Hewitt's future?
Like we said in question #5, Tech fans are expecting big things THIS season. We're tired of waiting. We feel like Gani and Derrick are gone and that next year could be a struggle if our guard play doesn't pick up. Hewitt needs a good run now and we think a Sweet 16 appearance would prolong his career at Georgia Tech.
The Stats:
This is going to be an interesting matchup as there are a number of major similarities between the two teams. Both teams, are playing outstanding defense. GTech limits its opponents to an eFG% of only 40.4% an is holding them to only 25.4% behind the 3 point arc. They are a long team that gives you a variety of different looks on defense. They are also shutting down the paint, limiting opponents to only 41.9% with a block% of 14.6. Derrick Favors and Gani Lawal own the paint and this will be the key to the match up with the Seminoles. The Yellow Jacket's offense is much better than that of the Noles, particularly due to the success of Favors and Lawal who are averaging 30 points per game combined. They have an offensive efficiency of 108.6 compared to the Seminoles 102.5. This is a difference of 68th nationally versus 142nd nationally, interpret that as you may. The difference is really 1.08 points per possession versus 1.02 points per possession. Given the difference in pace of these two teams this results in Georgia Tech scoring 79 points per game to the Seminoles 69. To illustrate how similar these two teams are statistically, look at the following chart that demonstrates the Four Factors for each team thus far:
If you are not familiar with the Four Factors evaluation, please refer to Statsheet.com and KenPomeroy.com. Obviously, a simple chart does not reflect the style of play or character of a team, but in our experience, the Four Factors have been a reliable way to evaluate teams.
The Lineup:
Here is the likely starting lineup for Georgia Tech:
F #11 Brian Oliver 6'6 220lbs Fr 7.2 ppg 1 rpg
F #14 Derrick Favors 6'10 245lbs Fr 13.7 ppg 8.8 rpg
F #31 Gani Lawal 6'9 235lbs Jr 16.3 ppg 10.4 rpg
G/F #13 D'Andre Bell 6'6 222lbs Sr 6 ppg 1.6 apg
G #0 Mfon Udofia 6'2 187lbs Fr 12 ppg 3.4 apg
This is a big athletic lineup. Their average height is 6' 6.2" compared to Florida State's 6' 7.2". They are also one of the youngest teams in the nation with an average experience of 1.33 years, compared to Florida State's 1.28. Mfon Udofia has been an an excellent addition to this team and is contributing more than expected. The left handed point guard wasn't predicted to be starting this early, but he has clearly earned his spot in the lineup. His Ortg is 106.2 and has an ARate of 21.7. The Yellow Jackets other guard D'Andre Bell is another south paw and is coming off back surgery during the off season. He is one of the defensive leaders of this team. His production has been quiet so far this year but he is the senior leadership that this team needs. Brian Oliver is statistically the best offensive player on this team; the reason that his number is so high is that he is 15-30 from behind the arc and is currently the Yellow Jackets' best three point shooter.
Fortunately, this will likely be the only year that the Seminoles see the combination of Favors and Lawal as both are likely heading to the NBA next year. Lawal is averaging a double-double thus far and is continuing to demonstrate his success from last year. He is an aggressive player in the low post on both ends of the court. He rebounds extremely well, passes out of the post extremely well and can score on a regular basis. In order for the Noles to have a chance, he needs to be limited. Derrick Favors was one of the top prospects coming out of high school. He chose to stay close to home for his likely one year of collegiate basketball. He is lightening quick and runs the floor as well as any big man out there. Watching tape of him is impressive. He is physical and attacks the basket. He is having a great year so far and is in the top 50 in the country for eFG%, OR% and Blk%.
Video Beak Down:
In preparation for this game, we decided to take a look at Georgia Tech's match up with Chattanooga to get a sense of what Florida State might see this evening.
This was the Yellow Jacket's first offensive set:




This sequence ended in a turnover as Lawal traveled as the double team collapsed down on him. However, this is an important set to understand as the Seminoles will see a lot of it throughout the game. In most of their possessions in the first half, Georgia Tech would set up in a relatively shallow 2-3 set or balanced 1-4 set with the front court players establishing position at the depth of the free throw line. This can be seen in the first image. They run a switch screen at the top of the next image. While the action is at the right wing position in the second image, look at what Lawal is doing on the post. He is driving his defender toward the ball. The ball is then quickly passed round the top of the key to Udofia who then drops the ball into Lawal in the post. In this series, Lawal didn't establish as low as he wanted to or did later in the game. The variation of this play is that as the ball is swinging around the top of the key, Lawal works back toward the middle of the paint and essentially gets the ball deep in the paint directly in front of the basket. Georgia Tech tries to get the defense flowing away from Lawal or Favors who are using that flow to establish themselves on the block on the weak side.
In this next set, the Yellow Jackets set up in a 1-4 set and Lawal is established on the lane at the top of the screen. The ball is passed to the forward on the right wing, who then drops the ball into Lawal quickly.



Lawal then simply turns and banks a beautiful shot off the board:

Lawal is likely going to see a steady rotation of Xavier Gibson and Ryan Reid. Singleton may also get a chance to defend him as well. However, Lawal may be too big for Singleton to handle on the low post. Georgia Tech has yet to see a team as big a Florida State. However, despite Georgia Tech's size, they are more than willing to play a full court press. Chattanooga made some early threes to take an early lead. The Yellow Jackets started to press and worked their way back into the game and then cruised to a 95-64 victory. Udofia is an excellent on the ball defender and can cause trouble in the back court.
Florida State will likely start Alabi, Singleton, Reid, Kitchen and Dulkys. Right now, Reid is the more physical defender on the low post and this is probably the right move to make to start the game. Georgia Tech excels at limiting its opponents eFG%. The Noles will have to get the ball inside on a regular basis and challenge the Yellow Jackets big men. Georgia Tech hasn't seen a team this big or athletic this year and their big men really haven't been challenged. Alabi must have a big game on both ends of the court and Singleton needs to play like he did earlier in the year. He defense of late has been excellent, but there needs to be more production on the stat sheet. Seven and seven won't be enough tonight. Chattanooga got a lot of good looks at the basket in transition and the Noles need to do the same. If Dulkys has his shot tonight this should be a great game. He is 9-16 in the last three games from behind the arc and he is shooting 40% on the year.
Keys to the Game:
1. Turnovers. Both teams have been turning the ball over at an extremely high rate. Don't give the Yellow Jackets extra opportunities. They will get out and run and they will punish you for it. Plus, the turnovers limit your flow and kill your confidence.
2. Welcome Derrick Favors to the ACC. This should be an interesting match up in the paint tonight. Solomon needs to stay out of foul trouble and frustrate Favors. Solomon needs to be aggressive on the offensive end and get the easy baskets. In the last couple of games, Solomon has shown improved foot work and some very nice post moves.
3. Clean up the glass. Favors and Lawal are averaging almost 20 rebounds per game combined. Florida State's top rebounders are averaging 13 rebounds combined. Don't let their big men get the easy put backs and allow this game to get out of hand. The statistic with the strongest correlation with Georgia Tech's success is their eFG%. They have an extremely high eFG% because the big guys are getting easy baskets down low.
4. Set the tempo. Florida State's defense and their offense slows things way down. When the pace is slower, Georgia Tech's opponents tend to have a higher offensive efficiency. There is actually a negative correlation with Georgia Tech's defensive efficiency and pace. Florida State must dictate the ton of this game and force Georgia Tech to react. Be proactive not reactive.
This should be a great game and should give Seminoles fans some idea of what the rest of the ACC season will be like. Georgia Tech has yet to see a team as good as Florida State. Conversely, Florida State has played a significantly tougher out of conference schedule. Florida State's OOC ranks 139th in the nation compared to 281st for Georgia Tech. That 'experience' may help Florida State in this game. Plus, the Seminoles have already played a big game on the road this year against Florida and Ohio State. The crowd will likely be smaller than usual as Georgia Tech students are on break and Graduation was last Saturday. Look for this game to be a slow turnover happy first half followed by a physical second half. Whoever establishes the paint will win this game.

Photo from here.
Game Time: 5:30pm EST
Television: FSN
Online Viewing: Justin.tv
Prediction: Georgia Tech 67 Florida State 65
Go NOLES!!!
Cheers,
TC
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Comments
great post - but a minor typo
cant be 2 -1 vs the acc and open acc play tonight
maybe 2 – 1 against the sec?
I think we win this game
GaTech hasn’t played anyone yet and they certainly haven’t seen our height yet. It should be fun to watch though…
I think we can as well. Was hard for me to come up with a prediction. They haven't played a a great team as of yet. I really think that playing UF and OSU will be a big advantage for us.
GTech was sloppy at the beginning of the Chattanooga game and seemed flustered with their pressure. But then GTech got on a roll, started to get out and run and applied full court press to the Mocs and took over the game. Granted, this was only one game.
In the Arkansas Pine Bluff game, it looks like their big three had a really poor shooting night, going a combined 37% from the floor. Lawal also had 5 turnovers.
Regardless, it should be a great game, and lets hope that the Seminoles can steal a win in Georgia.
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They haven't played a "great" team, but Dayton is a very good team.
Their only losses are to RPI #1 Kansas State (9-1) and by 6 to RPI #12 Villanova (10-1). In their loss to UD, UD was up 9 at the half and went on a 13-2 run the final 4:36 to seal it. The turnover by Shumpert was huge, but Dayton had the lead at the time of the turnover, so it’s not like that specific play cost GT the lead (as FTRS seems to indicate). They were also the preseason favorites to win the A10 (same league as Xavier).
I’ll get off Dayton soap box now. This game scares me, mainly because I think we don’t nearly play up to our talent level and capabilities. We are all length and no execution. While it appears that GT also has length but executes much better on offense. If this were in Tallahassee, I’d see a close win. Being in Atlanta, I see a 7-15 point loss.
Isn’t it funny how their expectations are nearly identical to ours (#3 seed in ACC, Sweet Sixteen…at least with our talent, those SHOULD be our expectations)?
True and I don't mean to discredit Dayton at all. They are a quality basketball team and will likely see some post season play.
The turnover by Shumpert killed it for them. I didn’t see the game…but why didn’t Udofia have the ball in his hands? Plus, a close loss to Dayton in OOC play won’t hurt GTech that much in the Grand Scheme (aka NCAA Tournament selection process).
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I have no idea why he had the ball in his hands.
It’s hard to follow starters/backups/playmakers at most ACC schools that aren’t Carolina/Duke. It wasn’t like he just dribbled it off his foot while standing there. He was being guarded very tightly near the side line and the pressure caused it (kind of like what would happen against us). I just assumed he was their PG/playmaker. I obviously know of their big guys, but you can’t expect them to make a play from beyond the 3 point line.
And realtimerpi predicts us to win 60-59. Kenpom has us losing 69-62 (22% chance of victory).
All 3 of these teams (GT, UD and FSU) should make the NCAAT.
The only line that I have seen has us at +7.
Just a few days ago, Pomeroy only had us with a 10% chance of winning. I don’t know what pushed it up to 22%. I think all of this means that this game is really up for grabs. Both teams are young and the ‘stats’ are at least fairly equivalent, except for the offensive efficiency which is significantly higher for Geogria Tech.
As we all know, we don’t know which Florida State team is going to show up, which I think reflects the youth of this team.
Shumpert certainly moved up into the starting role last year, but with Udofia’s progress, Shumpert is now seeing limited minutes.
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By "which Florida State team is going to show up", you mean what?
From what I can tell, there is only one team. They seem to play pretty consistent from one game to the next. Throughout the games there’s a good and a bad Florida State, but it seems to always follow a similar plotline.
The one that is going to turn the ball over a lot and score or the one that is going to turn the ball over a lot and not score.
The turnovers are almost guaranteed at this point.
Ad you are totally correct about consistency. Last year, the Noles were the most consistent team in the country, meaning that no matter who they played and no matter if they won or loss, the score was about their margin of victory/loss was usually about the same, of course there were a couple of outliers.
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I see what you're saying.
You’re looking at it in an intragame manner, I’m looking at it in an intergame manner. From game to game we look THE EXACT SAME to me. But within games, we look great for a few minutes and horrendous the next few. I see no indication that good play is increasing while poor play is decreasing.
as relatively inaccurate and more of a filler than anything. I think we are both getting at the same point and my 'which team will show up' comment w
Looking at the big picture, with the maybe the exception of the first couple games, this team is very similar night in and night out. And, they look very similar to last year’s team and the trend line (plus or minus) is relatively flat.
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it would be nice if we could see some stats about who's on the court for
FSU when our turnovers occur. Or the +/- stats, for that matter.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
I don't think +/- stats are that great.
I think they’re too situationally dependent (are we up big? are most the starters out, meaning we’re giving a bunch of young/inexperienced guys minutes? etc.) which is impossible to take into account.
On kenpom I believe there are Off eff numbers for each individual player.
Those would, I think, be more accurate.
well, the LOL conclusion of KenPom's individual offensive ratings
is that Dulkys should definitely start, since he has the best ORtg, but then so should Reid and Demercy. But you know what they say about “lies, damn lies, and statistics…”
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
I like the ORating as well for individuals. It essentially looks at how many points a player will score given 100 posessions.
Such a calculation would take into account turnovers. One needs to be careful if the possessions are limited. For example, Ryan Reid has one possession during the last game and scored a basket. His ORating was over 200.
I also like the TO Rate. This will give you some sense of who is turning the ball over the most. Again, small sample sets can skew this data.
www.Tomahawknation.com
Unfortunately, I would have to predict a loss, as one trend is particularly clear (and not
suprising) over this year and last for FSU: The struggles on offense are blatantly apparent and particularly aggravated against good defenses. Being that I see GaTech defensive effic. rating at KenPom’s site is now #18, I am going to prepare myself for the loss and hope that we pull the one road ACC win we need tonight.
The other thing I’ll note is that TrueCabbie asks: “Why did FSU lose a 14-point lead in the second half?” However, as I heard Coach Ham point out several times last year: every possession counts, no matter at what point in the game it comes. So, I wouldn’t separate the loss of the 14-point lead Tuesday night from the 1st 4 or so possessions of the game which we flushed away with turnovers. To that point, I personally would replace Snaer with Reid to start, and hope GaTech shoots THEMSELVES in the foot with turnovers.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
sorry, that should say that I would replace Reid with Snaer to start. At least Coach Ham
should be ready to pull the trigger on that if our propensity to turnovers shows itself early.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
You bring up some great points GNO.
I thought about the idea of Hamilton going with a smaller line up to start to prevent digging ourselves into a deep hole as a result of turnovers.
My concern was if Singleton can match up with Lawal or not in the low post. Even if we forced GTech to go ‘small,’ there is no way the Lawal and Favors are coming out of the game. GTech has a good number of the hybrid 2/3 players that could match up with our smaller line up. It will be interesting to see how Hamilton rotates his players through today. Our offense needs to have its best overall outing of the year today. It doesn’t have to be perfect, but it can’t be wasteful…meaning turnovers.
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thanx, TrueC. I was actually utterly convinced that the 3-guard set is what Coach Ham
should do for the very reason you suggest (avoiding digging the turnover “hole”), until I read your preview and considered the numerous 2/3 players GaTech has. That definitely presents a problem for what our 3-guard lineup would be. Then I wasn’t so sure. Its easy for me to say I would take the risk of going with the 3-guards to start, but then again it aint my butt on the line if it blows up in my face!
But you know, I would almost prefer losing to a GaTech that dissects our potential 3-guard set effectively rather than seeing us in the typical drunken stupor of an offense we get with 2-guards.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
I gotta agree, Ohio
I just haven’t seen enough offense from this team to think that they can get it done against any formidable ACC team with even an average defense. By the way, is anyone else PUMPED about ACC play starting? WOOOO
I know we say this every game, but the guys have to come out FOCUSED. Limit the turnovers. Especially the silly ones (passing to the invisible jersey, etc), stay OUT of foul trouble, etc.
Is a win possible? Hell yeah, but they’re going to have to play very very good to go into Atlanta and beat GT. Always a tough draw.
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
and this defense (GaTech's) is much better than average.
In any case, to limit those turnovers, I go with 3 guards. As you know, our hoops team has the exact opposite problem of the football team And what did we say about the football team’s defense? Just give me average, thats all we ask. Average D this year probably meant 9-10 wins.
So, for the basketball team: just give me average on offense, and a bid to the Dance is forthcoming. I think the easiest way to average for this offense is to limit turnovers, and I think we do that with generous helpings of three-guard setups.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
Im just lookin foward to a good game.
This one could go down to the wire and if we can crash boards and get second chance points we will walk out with a W.
by hntdeerliv4noles on Dec 20, 2009 2:32 PM EST reply actions
Gonna be interesting to see if Reid/Gibson can play extensive mins
without getting into foul trouble. Thus far they’ve had the luxury of knowing that they can be overly aggressive and we’d still have a size ad with Alabi and Singleton (as an eg.) being bigger than what our opposition has. Tonight, with Lawal and Favors, I’d rather not see Singleton have to match up with those guys inside. Probably will see more of Shannon (especially early) to make sure we can keep Alabi fresh. I’d expect to see Shannon play when only 1 of Lawal or Favors is out there so that we can rest Alabi with one of those guys or he’s not gonna be able to be effective in the last 5 mins of the game as Alabi will be matched up with physically equal player(s) in Lawal and Favors.
Will this be the game we control our turnover problems? I hope so as I’d hate to have to deal with the GT Gs and SFs getting confidence in the open court to help Favors and Lawal in the halfcourt game. I am a big believer that dunks/layups help with players jumpers as they have the feel of getting the ball in the net. May not statistically be true, but it sure feels that way.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher
If our bigs get into foul trouble, it could be a long night. Unlike most teams, GTech has two outstanding front court players, so we can't simply rotate Gibson and Alabi and get away with it.
It will really need to be a full effort by all of our front court players. Look for a lot of doubling down on Favors.
www.Tomahawknation.com
anyone know where i can live stream this game?
doesnt appear to be on tv in my area
Sam Houston State just beat Auburn AT Auburn, 107-89.
We just aren’t that good. I will continue to say this until we actually play well.
Ouch...that doesn't help us at all.
If only our offense could put together a great game. The defense is there…just need the team to put together a complete game on both ends of the court. Until that happens, I’m with ya trick. We just don’t know how successful this team could be unless we see significant improvement in turnovers and offensive production.
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Looks like Sam Houston State played as predicted...
They shot lights out from behind the three.
It looks like they basically say “We don’t play defense. See if you can keep up…” They put up 92 points on Kentucky.
They shot 53% from behind the arc and made 15 three pointers….
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that does not help us at all, nor does it make me feel more comfortable about tonight's game.
One could respond with the obvious: that maybe the Auburn team that lost today is not the same Auburn team that we beat (mentally speaking, due to the close loss to FSU), but I tend to think it just means we have not played that well at all so far. Last year’s non-conference performance was definitely better than this one, even assuming we beat the remaining creampuffs we got on the sked. And we got some creampuffs left.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
I dont remember who, but someone at this website advised downloading Google
Chrome to watch the games, and boy, whoever that is, I want to thank them.
That Google Chrome is blazing fast. Lightning.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
Don't think it was me but I am a HUGE Chrome fan.
It is so much faster imo. I sometimes have issues with adobe flash crashing (which obviously is a nuisance), but the good outweighs that one flow.
I think it was me
as I have both I.E. and Chrome and sometimes when one doesn’t work/slows down the other works fine – plus it’s a way to help get around the JTV viewer limits.
Just glad that it works on both (as some streaming systems don’t work on one or the other eg. Veetle only works on I.E.).
Happy to help.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher
I was even a few seconds slow on the take.
Wasn’t sure I wanted to do my TO count today.
so you were seeing the lineups when I was typing TO? lol
Reid with the nice put back off the SIngleton miss. Nice ball movement by the Noles.
www.Tomahawknation.com
Singleton Klangs 3
Reid with the offensive board for 2
Nice interior passing by the Yellow jackets. Alabi pics up the foul on the Lawal dunk.
www.Tomahawknation.com
Good interior passing leads to a GT Flush
Alabi fouled?
bad foul there. probably the energy of the first acc game
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
Reid is doing great. I went on record saying I would have started Snaer. Looks like I
might have been wrong.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
This is one of my biggest pet peeves
When Alabi gets a rebound near the basket he has a habit of putting the ball on the floor, it should never drop below his shoulders.
365 days, until I change my ways.
all my coaches through the years would rip me for it back in the day
365 days, until I change my ways.
kitchen is going to have to get some balls taking those outside shots
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
To be honest,
Those threes have been uncontested good shots – mostly in the flow of the offense.
I disagree especially when this team has not shown the ability to hit those consistently.
by Legal_Seminole on Dec 20, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah and I noticed that they were making them with bad form.
That catches up with you.
by Legal_Seminole on Dec 20, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
Typical ACC reffing at work
Alabi getting mugged but yet to be fouled….
Singleton not having a good game...
loses ball dribbling (technically a jump ball…)
Now that's a turnover
Snaer passes it out of bounds…
I mentioned the typical ACC reffing
FSU getting jobbed :)
GTEch ties it
and singleton commits an offensive foul (another to)
Still 9-9 with 10:40 to go
Jump ball FSU possession.
so, we fix the turnover problem and now start shooting like crap.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
Would love to have a slasher right now.
Go and create shots.
We haven't had bad shots
we just haven’t made them!
Jump shooting will not put the other team in foul trouble.
by Legal_Seminole on Dec 20, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
WTF Alabi
Far too far outside on that shot.
Wow...crazy help down on favors when he gets the ball. Nice interior D by the Noles.
www.Tomahawknation.com
I havent been around the game threads much, but WOW we have smart basketball fans here.
365 days, until I change my ways.
I knew we had smart football fans, but a bunch of you guys really know the game
365 days, until I change my ways.
Very nice! I played AAU my entire life and have done some assistant coaching and camps
365 days, until I change my ways.
If he does that a couple more times
maybe his own game will set up a little easier…
anyone else thinks kitchen is desperately avoiding taking shots?
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
I see what you're saying
He’s not really a shooter – more of a slasher. He’ll shoot more in the second half…
some of those opportunities looked WIDE open, though. No?
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
I think he could definitely take it to the hole more frequently if he so chose.
Maybe Hamilton has asked him not to in order to allow the team to get into a flow offensively. Maybe.
He has a motor like no one else on the team. We haven't been able to see it yet.
www.Tomahawknation.com
If he could only find his 3 point shot
Usually kills the 3’s and bricks at the line today is complete opposite
Shannon should let the game come to him a little more.
Love the potential and the energy, though.
FIVE SECOND VIOLATION FSU. BOO
Good FSU defense.
keeps us in a lot of games
Its been an issue all season it should have been corrected.
by Legal_Seminole on Dec 20, 2009 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
That's a sign of careless and bad coaching.
by Legal_Seminole on Dec 20, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
I hate to say it but in order to be elite Coach Ham has got to go.
The talent on this team is top 32 but coaching drags it to the 50s
by Legal_Seminole on Dec 20, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
GT's passing to "air" just like we usually do.
Maybe their offensive efficiency was overrated due to their competition?
HOLY SH*T SINGLETON
Blocks Oliver’s shot. Jumps out of bounds. Swats it back in Oliver’s face. FSU ball. Off his FACE
If we don't commit stupid turnovers leading to transition baskets
it’s really hard to score on us unless you shoot really well.
Our offense is actually playing much better than usual
We just keep missing wide open shots. Should be up by a lot more right now.
We are missing good shots, though.
So I’m ok with the lower percentage. Our offense doesn’t look like sh*t like it normally does. lol
Why did Singleton not put that second chance up with authority?
He shot it while in the air. Dumb choice
Geez Singleton is so damn inconsistent
Great play here then a wtf there.
Hes done good things, but he kills possessions with his lack of vision and understanding of movement
365 days, until I change my ways.
Moreso, but still has the holding the ball problem. 2 of his scores came as the result of terriffic passes by other people.
365 days, until I change my ways.
Just because he scored doesn't mean he made a great play.
by Legal_Seminole on Dec 20, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
That is how I took your statement but if that is not what you meant them my mistake.
by Legal_Seminole on Dec 20, 2009 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
I said he was the mvp so far in the game.
Meaning he’s made plays when presented with the opportunity and/or made plays out of nothing (in regards to several of his rebounds).
Alabi’s D and a few of his dunks/put backs have been huge as well. And Snaer had a nice spurt there at the end after a few turnovers and missed shots early.
if you dont start him, he needs to get near-starter time.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
putting the the ugliness to numbers
FSU off eff: 80
GT off eff: 68
both teams turning it over on 25% of their possessions
source: http://www.scacchoops.com/ViewHdGame.asp?hSchedule=3709
Snaer on a 5 point run
Scores in transition makes the lead 6
I like the fact that the last several GT possessions have been contested shots from distance.
And no offensive rebounds.
Nice d by shannon
knocks entry pass out of bounds
And they do now
GT to the line for 2 shots after wild sequence following wild shot
22 points given up in the first half to an ACC team. That aint half bad.
8 turnovers. not bad.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
FSU 27 GT 22
HT score – Loucks misses last second 3 (good shot actually)
I want that Number 1 draft spot
I really like Sue!
My retarded friend says the Bucs should draft Tebow
It was hard not to punch him in the face, really hard
ive been a fan all of my short life
and id have a hard time watching/rooting for the bucs with tebow
I would definitely prefer he not be on the team.
And I honestly see no chance of it occuring. I would enjoy seeing him get the sh*t knocked out of him against stout defenses, though.
are there ANY mock drafts that have him going 1st round?
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
I really think he does go to the Jags.
They “reach” on him and pick him up in the 3rd. Seriously. I’m calling it.
Where would Spiller go?
I think he’s a legit 1st rounder at RB and is an excellent punt/kickoff return man.
I just can't think of many/any offensive skill players I'd call better pro prospects.
Other than Suh, I’m not sure who I’d call better, period.
Thanks guys for the updates
At least I can watch the Bucs game and know whats going on here also..:-)
That will win a lot of ball games.
Although I favor a lot of defensive rebounds myself.
by Legal_Seminole on Dec 20, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
that rebounding advantage, and fewer to's (relatively speaking, when it comes to FSU, of course)
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
Great first half by the Noles on the road. A number of unecessary turnovers and a lot of missed open looks, but a 5 point lead at the half on the road in the ACC.
Florida Stat’s offense seems to be moving well, passing well, nice inside out game. Breaking the press well also. No one in significant foul trouble for the Noles.
www.Tomahawknation.com
She was like an 8. Pretty good looking.
There are definitely hot chicks at FSU that are good students/educated. I don’t know if I’d call many of them “smart”.
Reid leads the Noles with 7, and I wouldnt have started him. Shows you what I know.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
IT WOULD BE NICE IF THEY SHOWED THE SCORE, TIME AND SHOT CLOCK
And they defintiely fouled Reid there but he gets the loose ball and takes it in for a layup. REID 4 MVP
But if they play or not this year, it doesn't matter.
Next year is all that matters at this point. And Freeman becoming decent.
I'd like to put whatever equity is left in my home on the "under."
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
"Ryan Reid himself has outscored Lawal and Favors"
Who expected to hear THAT?
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 6:54 PM EST reply actions
If GT starts hitting those outside shots we're in big trouble
What we do in life, echoes in eternity.
Nice finger roll from Derwin. Showed good body control, smart play
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 6:57 PM EST reply actions
OK back now - family caught in snow drift
Dinner postponed (but ready)
The Game's on!
It’s Sunday – they should know better.
i've spent 1/3 of my life in florida, 2/3 in ohio. One big difference betwixt North and South:
the servers at Hooters. South: VERY nice. The North: just shut the place down.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
Cleveland is where I was born. I started school at FSU, graduated from Cincinnati. You?
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
Dayton
Born north of St. Pete. Moved to Dayton. Back to Florida for school (FSU). Now in Ft. Myers. Heading back up to Dayton Monday or Tuesday, though, for a few weeks. Got some free tickets and parking pass to the Bengals final home game. And holidays with the family and high school friends.
nice. I am quite sure I will be bouncing back and forth between Ohio and Florida
the rest of my life. In Cleveland right now for work, though.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
I kinda like Cleveland. I used to live in CHI and enjoyed going to Cleveland once in a while.
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
tough to argue with chicago, though. my brother lives there. a whole lot of fun
going on there. a whole lot of hot women.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
I would much prefe Florida (I think) and just visit relatives in Ohio over the holidays.
The Dayton suburb I grew up in was a very nice city, so if I moved back it’d have to be in a city like that.
Totally forgot about Berry.
Considered McCoy but don’t think he’s a gamechanger like Spiller or Suh (or possibly Berry).
Shannon getting a lot of minutes tonight. Demercy on the foul. No easy baskets though.
www.Tomahawknation.com
The Bucs are actually going to win
First the Rams tease early in the day and now this – a road win?
yes! the lexus commericals and the commercials for the diamond stores that completely
emasculate the men and commercialize Christmas in a rediculously sappy manner.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
My wife hates the diamonds commercials
They cheapen EVERYTHING
Anyone seen the "Family Guy" diamonds commercial?
Diamonds…[shows a girl’s shadow inching down the man’s shadow]…she’ll pretty much have to.
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
Stubborness is really help you
or kill you. It’s a matter of where you apply it.
What we do in life, echoes in eternity.
Yeah...You'd think the peach baskets were still up there
And the clock runs while the “guy with the stick” pops the ball out.
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
Doh - Brother-in-law unable to rescue wife and kids.
Gotta run. Come on Noles. Pull this out!
What is that snow drift thing? Is it dire? Im from S. FL and never seen snow....
365 days, until I change my ways.
Looking Rice makes me feel old
I actually remember his Dad setting that tournament record.
What we do in life, echoes in eternity.
Grrr...Glen Rice. Wasn't he recruited by us?
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 7:17 PM EST reply actions
Got lucky there...I don't like that shot by Dulkys
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 7:18 PM EST reply actions
Alabi rushed a little and misses his jumpshot badly again.
Where was that nice jumpshot from last year?
And how on earth was Dulkys so open for 2?
How the HELL did that fall?
No D help for GT…It’s all good
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 7:19 PM EST reply actions
I am an idiot for not wanting to start him, and I love it!
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
No you aren't...Nobody couldve predicted that.
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 7:22 PM EST up reply actions
And that is why we are sitting here discussing the game and not making millions of dollars a year walking the sidelines.
www.Tomahawknation.com
it's also how someone gets the playing time they want
with performances like this
What we do in life, echoes in eternity.
WOW!!!
nice job by RR.
Did I just say that?
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 7:20 PM EST reply actions
Nice patience by Singleton to dump it to Reid who cut to the basket. Great play.
www.Tomahawknation.com
This one is going to the wire, gents...Gonna be a lotta buttholes puckered up towards the end of this one.
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 7:26 PM EST reply actions
I guess the announcers don't realise that FSU is actually a younger team than GTech.
www.Tomahawknation.com
Does this surprise you? I can't wait for FOX to pick up ACC athletics.
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
Team needed to settle down. Get organized for the last minute. Get your plays called. I'm ok with it. Though, do worry about the inbound.
www.Tomahawknation.com
I cant take another year of this acc stuff. I am going to have a heart attack.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
I just woke up my house with a GD bomb.
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 7:36 PM EST reply actions
What a completely disorganized, terrible sequence.
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 7:38 PM EST reply actions
I just yelled "get into the offense 5 times as loud as I could and my neibor came over to see if I was ok
365 days, until I change my ways.
Does anyone have a DVR, so we can see what they were trying to do?
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 7:39 PM EST reply actions
Probably trying to get it to Alabi is my guess.
Man we had them. They had no times outs. We had the last shot. In the single bonus. Unaccetable.
www.Tomahawknation.com
Why give the ball to the guy who creates space on his own the best?
365 days, until I change my ways.
I really need to stop watching FSU basketball
I am terrible luck. I turned the game on when we were up 5 at half, watch GT take the lead. Then I turn it on at 52-49 and see this ending.
reid is a freak tonight
think he has earned more playing time?
What we do in life, echoes in eternity.
Ahh...
Overtime – That’s why the game isn’t over yet :)
Slightly less than worthless brother-in-law got the wife out
When I was almost there.
Anyone else almost pee themselves seeing Kitchen pass to Dulkys in that situation
365 days, until I change my ways.
Nice way to get out and run. Good to get that foul. Now lets hit some free throws.
www.Tomahawknation.com
Not in any league I've heard of.
Complete bail out foul
That is what Singleton needs to do...greta pass by Reid. Good court vision on that. And he was patient.
www.Tomahawknation.com
Exactkyt
He needs to drive and kick or drive and finish (Stop taking 3’s unless you’re hitting them)
Nice...Good hustle by Derwin.
Only to miss another free throw or two
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 7:53 PM EST reply actions
Reid helped make that play
He needs to hit one of these!
2 for ten from the line since the end of the firs thalf
now 3 of 11 (yes)
Thankg GOD they called the charge their...I saw visions of another BS call
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 7:53 PM EST reply actions
Loucks hit some free throws
But it is already a 2 pt game
You're counting chickens...
Unless you’re ahead of me :)
so we inbounded to the
2-12 FT shooting guy.,.. ok 3-13!
Demercy...you sneaky little bastard...that was smooth
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 7:56 PM EST reply actions
Oh I think they will
Question is, what are they gonna do about it.
What we do in life, echoes in eternity.
damn straight we do. we just beat ranked team in their joint.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
what am I talking about? The delusional coaches poll has GaTech at #15!
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
I have to think so. We're at the top of the "others recieving votes" list...
Even the Wake / NC State announcers commenting on Ryan Reid. i guess it surprised them too.
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
17 points, 7 of 11 from floor, 5 boards, 3 steals, only 1 personal foul.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
prior to this game: I was preparing myself for an NIT bid. Now? This season is
like a beautiful rose, about to bloom!
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
Limited until Snaer blows up.
Only a matter of time.
Road win - First place in the ACC
I like playing freshmen heavy teams early in the season :)
ANYONE else think Demercy was going to try to dunk the last alley oop even though n he would have failed?
365 days, until I change my ways.
Defense was outstanding tonight. Great game everyone.
Thanks to everyone during the discussion. This was a fun game to watch and discuss.
www.Tomahawknation.com
Nice! Hopefully we can hit this mark for every ACC game
Cubbie, who do I complain to regarding an issue with mobile commenting and Yahoo ID’s?
The technie nerds at SBNation?
by Randall W. Spetman on Dec 20, 2009 8:00 PM EST reply actions
TC
I’m late to this party but watched the end of the game. FT’s were an issue and looks like this game was an ugly one, but I’ll take the win!
Go Noles! Thanks again TC!
MVP = Reid...Congrats Big Fella. Heck of a game tonight.
Alabi had a very solid game. Nothing spectacular. Dulkys had a few big 3’s. Snaer had a spurt there that was big (5 straight points for us). And Singleton did a few crucial odds and ends without having a great game.
Clutch Performer of the Game = Kitchen…For making those free throws at the end to seal it. 7 points, 5 assists, 6 rebounds (great line for a PG…not sure on his TO’s)
Kitchen has shown vast improvement running the "offense"
or whatever it is FSU does when they have the ball.
But good for Derwin. It was needed.
But our defense is among the best in the country.
Net effect: we’re a pretty darn good team.
I disagree with "pretty darn good"
We are good. With the talent we have, we should be great. And it’s really NOT coaching that makes us good, either.
Coaching brings the talent.
Coaching is as coaching does. If you win games, you’re a good “coach.” As I said, it’s the next product of doing everything a coach is hired to do. There’s no guarantee we would have these insanely talented athletes with another coach.
And, you can have lots of talent that doesn’t play defense well. We play defense very well; we have for a long time, even before we had this much talent.
Whether we’re “pretty darn good” or “good,” we’ll have to wait until the end of the season to see… but I expect us to finish top 4 in the conference and win at least 2 in the NCAAs. We’re still bleeding turnovers, but the last two games, our offense has looked remarkably better to me. Just have to continue working on Snaer’s development (to get someone that can create their own shot from the perimeter-in) and then simply hit our open shots.
Whoo, win AT LEAST 2 in the NCAAT?
So you think we are likely an Elite Eight type team? Two games would take us to the Sweet Sixteen, but that’s at the minimum of your projection.
I can’t see us winning 2 at this point in time. Depending on our seed/opponent, I’m not sure we win 1. I do think, for now, we should make the Dance, though.
Good recruiters land good talent. Good coaches get that talent to execute and play fundamentally sound. We often lack the latter portion of the two. I don’t really want to get into this too much. My whole premise is that we win ugly. We always win ugly. Execution and fundamentals on the offensive end are often mediocre. That means we ARE NOT playing up to our potential and NOT getting the most out of our talent.
You have to credit Hamilton for landing some quality recruits. And we do play great defense. But have we ever played D THIS well before? No. It took the tallest team in America to do this. Height isn’t taught and it is a given that height is a natural advantage on defense. It’s also proven that it’s not as much as an advantage on offense as it is defense. Good coaching, gameplanning, schemes, etc., could overcome that differential. We do not overcome that differential.
It is hard to argue based on today, because I thought the offense might have played it’s best all season (we simply just couldn’t buy a bucket at times…easy, open looks, too), but normally our offense looks completely lost and inept. It looks high school-ish. And you saw it surface on the final possession of regulation. WHAT WAS THAT?
For some reason it is ok for our basketball team to continually struggle in one aspect of the game (offense), but it was never ok for our football team to do so. For some reason it is ok for our basketball team to not looked well coached, make fundamental errors, and continually make similar errors without noticing any sort of progression or improvement. But it’s wasn’t ok for our football team’s offense. It’s ok to have great talent but not have a great results on the court. It’s not ok with football.
Fisher is all about being process oriented, which is not the same as results oriented. A good, consistent process, will eventually lead to good results. Good results without a good process are fleeting. I feel like we’re winning with smoke and mirrors (because our offense just isn’t up to snuff). We are winning because we are tall, not because we are well coached. We have Sweet Sixteen type talent and if we don’t make it there, there’s no excuse. None (save for an injury…lol). If we make it there I’ll be the first to admit I’m wrong. If we make it there with an offensive efficiency 150+ in the nation, I’ll be stunned.
I hope you do not feel I’m going off on you or anything. I’m not. I also hope no “authors” or whatever you want to call them on here mind the length and/or content of this post.
Anyways, I’m GLAD we won today. I hope we keep winning WHILE improving the “process” in which we win.
But you forget that basketball has been winning......
This solves a world of problems. Lack of a football offense could not be ignored as it was blatantly responsible for many of our failures of past years.
by EngineerNole on Dec 20, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
OK, the "at least" 2 NCAAs was an over-statement.
I think 2 is the probable number. I think we are definitely a top 20 team; or at least will be by the end of the season.
And I do have higher expectations for our football team than our basketball team. We are probably #11/12 in program tradition/history in the best basketball conference in the country, versus #1 or 2 in football tradition in a much weaker football conference. In spite of that, we’ve performed among the top 4 in basketball in the last 4-5 years, while at the bottom half in football.
Further, I give Ham a relatively long leash for a couple reasons. #1, he’s brought us out of the misery that was 1994- on, #2, his teams are continuing to improve — until that trend plateaus or reverses, isn’t it crazy to get rid of him? — and finally, #3, he’s bringing in kids that are not an embarrassment to the university. (Not to mention, he’s not the absolute scum of the earth like a lot of the other “successful” bball coaches out there. I wanted to vomit with idiots clamoring for Calipari a few years back.)
The offense is frustrating. I’m not blind…. if we do appear to peak out as a top 20 team for a couple years, then we should obviously make some changes on the staff. Stan Jones probably isn’t going anywhere, and seems to do well developing big men, aside from this season, Enfield had proven himself invaluable. What does Crawford do? I’m not necessarily saying he has to go, but It seems like we can make improvements by bringing in an offensive technician, that can specifically work on shoring up our guard play, rather than throwing out the baby out with the bath water.
every time FSU doesnt play man-man
that is Crawford. 2-2-1, 3/4 press, etc.
And switching up defenses is a GOOD thing.
Like I said, I don't know.
And we’ve been showing some nice variations the last couple of games.
Anyway, I’m not in favor of any shake-ups until we’ve hit a wall. I still think personnel is an issue… with Snaer developing his full set of tools, our offense will look dramatically better.
I don't know if I addressed the issue of where our program was and where it's at now.
If I didn’t I thought about it and just got caught up in my train of thought and forgot.
Two things:
I know exactly how far Hamilton has brought up this program. Fourth most wins in the ACC the past 3 (4?) years. Went from from finishing 7th, 8th or 9th EVERY year the 5ish years prior to Hamilton in the ACC (out of 9 teams) to where we are now. Can NOT take that away from him. Just because he’s turned the program around and made it very respectable and very competitive does not mean he should be allowed to squander the immense talent that he recruits.
We are not a top 20 team right now. Not even close. We weren’t last year (SHOULD have been). Nor are we so far this year (SHOULD be). I say “should” based on talent, not because we were “screwed”. If Hamilton got us into the tournament every year and made the Sweet Sixteen every other year (and maybe an Elite Eight every 5 years or so), I’D BE STOKED. That is VERY HARD to do. A top 20 program is a VERY GOOD program. I’m not saying I don’t want to ever win a national title. I’d love to. But, again, it’s even harder to do in basketball, imo, than it is football. So, I would take top 20. We just aren’t anywhere near that right now.
Make that 3 things. I also have higher expectations for football than basketball. As in, I expect to be ranked in the top 10 every year in football, and I think we could be ranked in the top 25 ever year in basketball. That’s not my point. My point in my original post was that we squander our talent. We don’t utilize/maximize the athletes we have with the offensive system/coaching we give them. THAT’S not acceptable. If we have top 50 talent, we better finish top 50. If we have top 25 talent, we better finish top 25. Thing is, we DO have top 25 talent (and we did last year), but we aren’t top 25 on the court (not last year, not currently this year, although it’s possible we finish there, but, imo, unlikely).
by tricknole on Dec 21, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with you that another coach might be able to take this roster...
and make a Final 4 run.
BUT, as you, yourself argued in the Odell Haggins thread, coaching = teaching + recruiting. You’re trying to argue the exact opposite here, which suggests to me your mind is made up, and you’re connecting the dots however you can to make the case.
Next, to properly place things in historical context, if you’re going to suggest 7th through 9th, you need to qualify that by saying pre-ACC final expansion, because we were a play-in game fixture. One of the worst 1 or 2 teams in the conference, with a talent base more suitable to the MEAC than the ACC. Do you remember when we started David Anderson and Justin Mott? Seriously? Maybe our resident ’dealer Tim Wooten had you drooling about our potential….
Where do you think we should be slated in the ACC? Obviously behind Duke and UNC. Then there is simply a slew of quality programs in the mix competing for the next 4 slots that make up the upper half of the league. We’ve been very competitive in that mix in the last few years, and I think this is in SPITE of some major holes on our roster. This is the first season where I truly thought we had a good balance of inside-outside talent AND experience… and we’re still one of the youngest teams in the country.
We started off with complete garbage, got to a plateau of performing “just outside” of the bubble for a couple years, and then we finally make it over the hump, secure 3rd most wins in the ACC and 2nd in the tournament, and look to be AT LEAST a tournament-caliber team this year, and for several years to come.
I don’t care how you cut it, that’s progress. You don’t make drastic changes while on a clear upswing. (You can argue about process vs. results all you want on this point, but as an outsider to the program, the irony is that all we can see are the results.) So let’s see how this year pans out. If the young guys settle down and develop as I hope they will, this season will be solid. If we struggle or possibly miss the tournament, then we definitely consider incremental changes to the staff (i.e., bring in a guy that can develop a PG that can run an offense). Hamilton has proven to me that he’s capable of adapting and developing — bringing in Enfield probably put us over the hump and into the tournament, we’re seeing some nice defensive/zone adjustments this year despite his distinct taste for man-to-man — so wait and see. I know we’re all programmed to expect our coaching staff to fail us, but I have no doubt that Hamilton’s and Bowden’s approaches at this stage in their careers are distinctly different. Hamilton will do what it takes to win.
How am I arguing the opposite?
Odell: Good teacher (from what they say), Poor recruiter
Hamilton: Poor teacher, Good recruiter
Since neither guy is good in both aspects, neither guy is a “good” coach. If I goofed up and typed something else, it was merely a typo. I quit reading your post after the “arguing the opposite” part. So you may or may not have said something I agree with the rest of the way.
Am I taking crazy pills?
You said,
Good recruiters land good talent. Good coaches get that talent to execute and play fundamentally sound.
…thus, distinguishing between “coaches” and “recruiters” in this instance, in direct contrast to your other claim that coaching = recruiting + teaching, as it related to Odell. What am I missing? And, not surprising you wouldn’t read, like I said, it’s obvious your mind is already made up.
My mind IS made up.
Hamilton can recruit but lacks in the teaching department. I still don’t see any “contrast”. I said “coach” instead of “teach”. Big deal. I also said it’s easy to use one in place of the other, since most levels of sport coaches only have to teach (only in college do they truly recruit).
If you are a Ham nuthugger that’s great. I don’t think he gets the most out of his teams.
Nice. Nuthugger. That's productive.
I’m not trying to get into anything with you, My whole point is that another coach wouldn’t have “his team.” It’s useless to lament a lack of technical prowess on one side of the basketball and demand a staffing overhaul without accounting for other positive aspects of the program.
If you could ship a whole program down to Tallahassee from any other program in the ACC, I’d trade our roster and coaches — since they can’t be separated — for UNC’s… and, begrudgingly, Duke’s… but not any other program in the ACC. That’s the ultimate testament to the quality this program has achieved.
Haha!
RR with a great game. Would NEVER have expected that, but it sure is welcome!
Where can I watch a replay online?
I was only able to watch the first half.
+1
Had to go rescue the wife and kids :)
Ah, but we ‘almost’ blow every game we win. I still want to watch.
by EngineerNole on Dec 20, 2009 9:52 PM EST up reply actions
You're crazy.
I was having a blast watching this game (even though we couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn) until the final few minutes and the first few of overtime. And for me, once I know the score of the game, it’s hard to get emotionally into it watching a re-airing.
Well I like to see every game to be able to accurately analyze what’s going on. Improvements, trends and etc. Can’t do that with a box score. I suppose I am somewhat off my rocker though, considering my career path.
by EngineerNole on Dec 21, 2009 2:35 AM EST up reply actions
What's your career?
Green peace?
I understand where you’re coming from. Don’t get me wrong. I just don’t have the same…desire, I guess.
How is this political? I simply wanted to watch the game. Anyway, I am a mechanical engineering grad student.
by EngineerNole on Dec 21, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
Political?
It’s pretty obvious what your career path is which is why I said Green Peace. Different ends of the spectrum.
RYAN REID
TomahawkNation and myself have been downing ryan reid, but tonight he proved himself to be a starter. WHAT A GAME! Gives the boys alot of confidence. We should be ranked somehwhere in the low 20’s tomorrow. We should be 13-2 going into our next big game at MARYLAND. GO NOLES!
by DeanerNoleProphet on Dec 20, 2009 9:06 PM EST reply actions
He won the UF game for us last year.
He sent the UNC game into OT with a buzzer beating 3 a few years back.
A round of applause for TC
another great game string with great info along the way.
What we do in life, echoes in eternity.
We'll definitely get a kenpom boost with that little road victory
It will be fun to look down on UNC in the rankings tomorrow ;)
So now it’s cupcake Tuesday (Tennesee Martin)followed by Christmas break and an even bigger (hard to do) cupcake (Alabama A&M) on New Years Eve. Then it’s a sterner warmup on Jan 5 against Tex A&M Corpus Christi b4 it’s back into the ACC meat grinder.
These upcoming games should not be difficult. They should not be tests. BUT WE MUST WIN them.
.500 in the ACC will get us into the big dance – as long as we don’t have a bad loss on our resume.
Totally do not agree.
Going 20-10 (8-8) with potentially 0 top 50 OOC wins isn’t NCAAT to me. I actually see us doing better than 8-8 (much better) because we are much more talented than most of our opponents.
"Potentially"
And Marquette is RPI #93 according to realtimerpi, so I’m not sure what you’re saying? Alabama is #84, fwiw.
.500 in conf will not be good enough for a bid
9-7 maybe. 10-6 def. Based on how teams have performed out of conference, look for the ACC to garner 4/5 team bids
Same story every year.
8-8 you’re hoping for a couple ACCT wins.
9-7 you’re feeling OK, but afraid of game #1 in the ACCT.
10-6 you’re a lock.
There’s a little variation in that, but aside from the occasional mid-major eruption, these are pretty reliable numbers. ’Nova’s and Alabama’s performances have the capacity to push the margins us up or down slightly.
I agree here. Leaving out the ACC Tourney, 8-8 is not good enough in the regular season.
The nonconf resume is too thin this year. Its not as thin as the year we went 9-7 and got left out of the dance, but it isnt as good as last year.
Its merely guesses at this point, but I’d say 9-7, even with a loss in the first round of the ACC and FSU gets a bid. Just based on the fact that ACC teams that go 9-7 rarely get left out. Unless you have a truly horrendous nonconf resume (which we did that year.)
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
Good win for us but
Hamilton is a terrible coach. The last 20 seconds of regulation was inexcusable. I was shocked and amazed to see how good RR played. 17 points has to be a career high for him.
It is a career high for Red. CONGRATS to him. And Hamilton is not a terrible coach.
He’s a great recruiter. He’s a very good at teaching defense. He’s a bit subpar on offense. I think if you combine the 3 that makes him “good”. It’s just, I’d rather be good all-around as opposed to really good in one area and fairly mediocre in the other.
I was at the game ...
… first FSU basketball game live since probably 1999. We certainly miss Douglas but we’re definitely better than some folks think. I didn’t read all the comments on this thread but we had some real bonehead plays, ones that could have easily won the game in regulation had we not made them. Very exciting game and I’m glad we won in OT. Reid played well but definitely needs to work on foul shots. :) I apologize if this is super obvious, I’m just observing as a casual basketball fan. Glad we won it.
Can you explain how we are better than some think?
You said there were plays we could’ve made that we didn’t. Is that in support of the previous statement or was a separate thought?
WE GET NO RESPECT
How do we beat GA TECH and they are still ranked and we are not. The only team they beat was USC. This is crap. We will keep playing hard and prove all the naysayers wrong!
by DeanerNoleProphet on Dec 21, 2009 2:12 PM EST reply actions
Personally, I don't give a flying flip about ranking
Preseason rankings are horse-pucky. In-season rankings are completely based on media bias.
Are we an elite team? Not yet. But what matters is how we develop over the course of the season. The talent is there. I don’t want these guys to start reading their press clippings and think they don’t have to work to improve over the next 3 months.
I want 10-6 and a sweet sixteen birth. It is attainable.
rankings don't mean so much
when you have (hand over mouth) a playoff.
What we do in life, echoes in eternity.
Thanks TrueCubbie (and all TN)
I just went to a doctor of some sort, because I fell and put my arms out and something popped and it hurt pretty bad, but I waited until winter break for my parents to pay for my doctor visit.
The point, is thanks to the ridiculous work put in by the crew here at TN I went in knowing basically what had happened, and I knew I tore that posterior ligament in my elbow thanks to TrueCubbie’s In the Training Room special on Dekota Watson’s Tommy John surgery (which I may get when I get back to Tallahassee) but when the doctor asked me about it and I could recall and explain the precedure to him, I realized I learned more from TN than FSU this semester.
I just want to thank everyone for all the hard work you put in, and you have taught me a ton, and I check this site seriously like 20 times a day for the new comments too, because all the readers are like a second article, so much info and cool ideas.
Figured this wasn’t relevent enough to FSU sports to make a fanpost, but seriously, thanks so much. I’m even better at NCAA because I understand the plays fully, can run the smash route successfully, learn which packages work with what better, even though its not nearly like real life, I went from 3-25 last year to 40-3 this year. Thanks!
I concur. I came to this site midway through the football season, and never left. I was hooked
instantly.
And to think I almost shelled out good money for Warchant. Yikes. Those savings went right into my Scotch fund.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
by GoNolzOhio on Dec 21, 2009 9:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs






























