Florida State Seminoles NCAA Sanctions Report
Conference Call details are in the comment section.
- The NCAA hammed FSU verbally, which does not matter. Sticks and stones...
- FSU will vacate all victories in which the implicated athletes participated, including Football, Baseball, and Basketball, as well as track.
- They are ineligible at the time of the cheating, and not at the time of the discovery of said cheating.
- It is up to the university to determine when the athlete was cheating and whether an athlete participated or not. FSU could get creative here. They have 90 days to report their findings and vacations to the NCAA Let's hope they don't try to get too creative.
- FSU will seek to save their 2006 and 2007 season wins
because it never knowingly played student-athletes who were ineligible and followed eligibility guidelines with which the NCAA agreed, the university will seek clarification of a specific penalty requiring it to vacate wins and will consider its appellate opportunities under NCAA procedures.
The NCAA issued its sanctions today for violations that occurred in connection with an online course in the fall semester of 2006, the spring semester of 2007, and the summer of 2007.
The NCAA reported no additional institutional findings beyond what the university had discovered. The NCAA also did not find a lack of institutional control. And it did not impose any sanctions that would restrict the university’s ability to compete in postseason competition this year or in any future years.
The NCAA found that no coaching staff members were involved in any impropriety. The violations occurred in the athletic academic-advising sector of the university and not in the coaching sector.
"We just don’t understand the sanction to vacate all wins in athletics contests in which ineligible student-athletes competed because we did not allow anyone who we knew was ineligible to compete. Our position throughout the inquiry was that as soon as we knew of a problem, they didn’t play."_ University President T.K. Wetherell
Florida State Athletic Director Randy Spetman also offered a similar opinion on the vacation-of-records sanction.
"Our independent investigation concluded that our coaches did not know about the academic misconduct and never knowingly played any ineligible student-athlete. The NCAA’s report does not dispute that conclusion. Some of our student-athletes engaged in academic misconduct — and we will suffer the consequences — but I believe vacating wins is just wrong.", Said Spetman
I don't think that we're going to be able to pull this off. The NCAA is not that stupid. On the conference call today, the NCAA representative stated that ineligibility is from the start of the cheating and that any game that involved an ineligible player will must be vacated.. From my understanding, knowledge is irrelevant here.
- I hear that the player involved in track was not a walk-on, but rather a member of the 4X100 Relay Team.
- Bobby Bowden's shot at the all-time wins record is quashed and hopefully this year will be his last, as well as T.K.'s (AT FSU, not on earth. Don't send me hate-mail, Jim).
- FSU's probation will be 4 years instead of the proposed 2. This is NOT a ban on television or bowl games. It just means that we need to be good for the next 4 years.
- Football Scholarship Losses: Limit to 83 total grants in 2008-09, 82 in 2009-10 and 84 in 2010-11. [Note 1: The maximum allowed under NCAA legislation is 85. Note 2: for 2008-09, the institution self-imposed two grant reductions from the maximum allowed (=83) and will self-impose three reductions for 2009-10 (=82). The committee imposed an additional reduction of one grant from the maximum in 2010-11 (=84). Note 3: The institution averaged 84.25 total grants the previous 4 years.] This is phenomenal news here. We won't even feel this.
- Basketball Scholarship Losses: "Limit to 12 total grants in 2008-09 and 12 in either 2009-10 or 2010-11. [Note 1: The maximum allowed under NCAA legislation is 13. Note 2: for 2008-09 the institution self-imposed a reduction of one from the maximum allowed (=12). The committee imposed an additional reduction of 1 grant from the maximum to be taken in either the 2009-10 or 2010-11 academic years, at the university’s discretion.] Note 3: The institution averaged 11.75 grants the previous four years.]"
- We will not lose any more Baseball Scholarships: Limit to 11.33 grants in 2008-09. [Note 1: the maximum allowed is 11.7. Note 2: The university averaged 11.69 grants the previous four years.] They accepted our penalty in this area.
Guys... Florida State beat the NCAA. Bobby Bowden lost. The only people angry about this are the Bowden crowd and the Track Team.
The NCAA's opening release and report are inside.
Here's the FSU NCAA REPORT , available for download if you want.
INDIANAPOLIS---The NCAA Division I Committee on Infractions has penalized Florida State University for major violations in its athletics program.
The case involved academic fraud affecting more than 60 student-athletes across 10 sports, as well as impermissible benefits, unethical conduct by three former academic support services staff members, and a failure to monitor by the university.
The sports programs involved in these violations include football, baseball, men's track and field, women's track and field, men's swimming, women's swimming, men's basketball, women's basketball, softball and men's golf.
Penalties for the violations include four years of probation, scholarship reductions, vacation of records, and show-cause penalties for the former staff members.
The show-cause penalties mandate that the former staff members' contact with student-athletes must be limited at any employing institutions. These limitations are further explained in the public report.
This case involved a former learning specialist, academic advisor and tutor at the University Athletics Academic Support Services (AASS), all of whom gave improper assistance to student-athletes, resulting in academic fraud.
The committee stated this case was "extremely serious" because of the large number of student-athletes involved and the fact that academic fraud is considered by the committee to be among the most egregious of NCAA rules violations.
A significant portion of the academic fraud violations involved a music course offered to students without incident for more than 10 years before its academic integrity was compromised in the fall semester of 2006, resulting in academic fraud occurring during this time, as well as the 2007 spring and summer semesters.
In addition to the academic improprieties associated with the online music course, the former learning specialist provided impermissible assistance to at least three student-athletes by typing portions of papers assigned to them. She also provided answers to an online psychology course quiz for a student-athlete by instructing a second student-athlete to complete the quiz on behalf of the student-athlete enrolled in the course.
Ultimately, 61 student-athletes went through the NCAA's reinstatement process as a result of these violations. The university believed it was likely that more student-athletes received improper assistance in the online music course, but it concluded the evidence to substantiate this belief was circumstantial and inconclusive.
The committee attributed the violations in this case to two primary factors. First, it said the online exams for the music course were not administered in a structured environment. There was no requirement for a proctor, and the university acknowledged that the course did not have sufficient safeguards in place to prevent students from obtaining exam answers. Second, the committee said that inconsistent supervision of the AASS created an environment that allowed the academic support personnel to take actions violating NCAA rules and university guidelines.
The three former staff members were charged with unethical conduct for knowingly arranging for fraudulent academic credit for numerous student-athletes and providing improper academic assistance. The former academic advisor also refused to cooperate with the investigation and violated another provision of NCAA ethical conduct rules, as well as the cooperative principle. The cooperative principle states that university and its staff have an obligation to assist the enforcement staff in developing full information on the case. As a result of the academic improprieties by the three staff members, 61 student-athletes also violated the ethical conduct rules, and several student-athletes competed while ineligible.
The penalties in this case are as follows:
• Public reprimand and censure.
• Four years of probation (March 6, 2009, to March 5, 2013).
• Scholarship reductions in football; men's and women's basketball; men's and women's swimming; men's and women's track and field; baseball; softball; and men's golf. Additional details are available in the public report.
• Vacation of all wins in which the 61 student-athletes in the sports of football, men's and women's basketball, men's and women's swimming, men's and women's track, men's golf, baseball and softball competed while ineligible during 2006 and 2007. This includes regular season contests, postseason contests and any NCAA championship competition. The individual records of the student-athletes shall be vacated as well. Further, the institution's records regarding all of the involved sports, as well as the records of the head coaches of those sports will reflect the vacated records and will be recorded in all publications in which these records are reported, including, but not limited to, institution media guides, recruiting material, electronic and digital media plus institution and NCAA archives. Any public reference to tournament performances won during this time shall be removed, including, but not limited to, athletics department stationery and banners displayed in public areas such as the venues in which the specified teams compete.
• Five-year show-cause order for the former academic advisor (March 6, 2009, to March 5, 2014). Additional details are available in the public report.
• Four-year show-cause order for the former learning specialist (March 6, 2009, to March 5, 2013). Additional details are available in the public report.
The members of the Committee on Infractions who reviewed this case include Dennis Thomas, the commissioner of the Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference and formerly director of athletics at Hampton University. He is the vice chair of the Committee on Infractions and acting chair for this case. Other members are Eileen Jennings, general counsel at Central Michigan University; Andrea Meyers, athletic director emeritus, Indiana State University; Alfred Lechner, Jr., attorney; James Park Jr., attorney, Lexington, Kentucky and Josephine (Jo) R. Potuto, the Richard H. Larson Professor of Constitutional Law at the University of Nebraska College of Law.
• Three-year show-cause order for the former tutor (March 6, 2009, to March 5, 2012). Additional details are available in the public report.
FLORIDA STATE UNIVERSITY
PUBLIC INFRACTIONS REPORT
MARCH 6, 2009
A. INTRODUCTION.
On October 18, 2008, officials from Florida State University and a former learning
specialist ("former learning specialist") in the athletics department, along with her legal
counsel, appeared before the NCAA Division I Committee on Infractions to address
allegations of NCAA violations at the institution. This case involved three former
University Athletics Academic Support Services (AASS) staff members (including the
former learning specialist) who gave improper assistance resulting in academic fraud to
numerous student-athletes representing multiple sport programs. There were also
associated violations relating to the provision of impermissible benefits and a failure to
monitor by the institution.
This case was extremely serious because of the large number of student-athletes involved
and the fact that academic fraud is considered by the committee to be among the most
egregious of NCAA infractions. A significant portion of the academic fraud violations
involved a music course that had been offered online to both student-athletes and other
students without incident for more than 10 years before its academic integrity was
compromised in the fall semester of 2006, resulting in academic fraud occurring during
the fall of 2006, the spring of 2007 and the summer of 2007.
In addition to the academic improprieties associated with the online music course, the
former learning specialist provided impermissible assistance to at least three studentathletes
by typing portions of papers assigned to them. She also provided answers to an
online psychology course quiz for a student-athlete by instructing a second studentathlete
to complete the quiz on behalf of the student-athlete enrolled in the course. The
institution did not contest either the violations associated with the academic improprieties
or the failure to monitor its academic support unit. The former learning specialist
disputed most of the allegations made against her.
The violations documented in this report can be attributed to two primary factors:
a. The online exams for the music course were not administered in a structured
environment. There was no requirement for a proctor, and the institution
acknowledged that the course professor did not have sufficient safeguards in
place to prevent students from obtaining exam answers.
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b. Supervision of the AASS by the institution did not occur in a consistent manner. This created an environment which allowed the former learning specialist and other academic support personnel to take actions to violate both NCAA legislation and institutional guidelines.
As stated earlier in this report, the academic improprieties in this case involved a large number of student-athletes across multiple sports specifically, 10 sports (football, baseball, men's track and field, women's track and field, men's swimming, women's swimming, men's basketball, women's basketball, softball and men's golf). Ultimately, 61 student-athletes went through the NCAA's reinstatement process. The institution believed it was likely that more student-athletes received improper assistance in the online music course, but concluded that the evidence to substantiate this belief was circumstantial and inconclusive. Reinstatement was processed in two components. The first group was composed of 22 student-athletes. Of this first group of student-athletes, the NCAA's Student-Athlete Reinstatement (SAR) staff initially ruled that four student-athletes would be withheld from 40-percent of a season of competition, one would receive a 50-percent withholding, and 15 would be withheld from a full season of competition, all with no further loss of eligibility. (Note 1: One student-athlete withdrew from the institution and the SAR staff was awaiting information on the remaining student-athlete. Note 2: SAR guidelines in effect at the time of the violations specified that the minimum reinstatement condition for a student-athlete who committed academic fraud was to lose a year of eligibility and also to be withheld from a year of competition.) As part of the discussions about the SAR staff's initial decision, the SAR staff indicated that it would reconsider the penalty if information showed that culpability for the violations primarily rested with the institution and not the student-athlete. Because the institution strongly believed that its processes and personnel were primarily responsible for the improper assistance, it submitted additional information on that issue, suggesting that a 30-percent withholding penalty would be appropriate because the culpability for the violations centered on the institution.
In late November 2007, the SAR staff advised the institution that it accepted the institution's suggested 30-percent withholding penalty, with the understanding that the 30-percent penalty was available only to those student-athletes who previously had been forthcoming and those who came forward in the immediate future. The institution agreed to meet individually with all student-athletes with remaining eligibility who had taken the course to inform them of this opportunity and to advise them that the opportunity would be withdrawn if truthful information was not provided during that interview. Ultimately, an additional 39 student-athletes acknowledged receiving improper assistance in the
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online music course. This group of 39 student-athletes was forwarded to the SAR staff as the second submission for restoration of eligibility. In the end, the 61 student-athletes who went through the eligibility restoration process were withheld from 30-percent of their respective sports' competition beginning in December 2007 and continuing into the 2008-09 academic year. A member of the Atlantic Coast Conference, Florida State University has a total enrollment of approximately 41,000 students and sponsors nine men's and 10 women's intercollegiate sports. This was the institution's seventh major infractions case; its most recent appearance before the committee was in 1996 for a case involving the football program. The institution also had infractions cases in 1984 (football); 1983 (men's basketball); 1974 (football); 1970 (men's basketball); and in 1968 (men's basketball). B. FINDINGS OF VIOLATIONS OF NCAA LEGISLATION.
1. UNETHICAL CONDUCT – ACADEMIC FRAUD AND REFUSAL TO PROVIDE INFORMATION; EXTRA BENEFITS. [NCAA Bylaws 10.1-(a), 10.1-(b), 16.01.1, 16.02.3, 16.3.1.1.1-(a), 16.11.2.1 and 32.1.4]
During the 2004-05 through 2006-07 academic years, the former learning specialist, a former tutor for athletics ("former tutor") and a former academic advisor ("former academic advisor") failed to deport themselves with the generally recognized standards normally associated with the conduct and administration of intercollegiate athletics and violated the provisions of ethical conduct when they knowingly arranged for fraudulent academic credit for numerous student-athletes and provided improper academic assistance. Further, in the fall of 2007, the former academic advisor refused to cooperate with the investigation and thus violated another provision of NCAA ethical conduct legislation as well as the cooperative principle. As a result of the academic improprieties perpetrated by the three staff members, 61 student-athletes also violated the provisions of ethical conduct, and several student-athletes represented the institution in intercollegiate athletics competition at a time they were ineligible to do so. Specifically:
a. On or about March 23, 2007, the former learning specialist provided correct answers for an online Sports Psychology (PET-4214) quiz to a men's basketball student-athlete ("student-athlete 1") and requested that student-athlete 1 enter the answers onto an online exam form on behalf of another men's basketball student-athlete ("student-athlete 2"). Student-
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athlete 1 submitted the answers for student-athlete 2 at the request of the former learning specialist even though student-athlete 1 was not enrolled in the sports psychology class, and student-athlete 2 was not aware of this action by student-athlete 1.
b. Prior to the 2005-06 academic year, the former learning specialist created a so-called study guide, contained in a three-ring binder (hereafter, "the binder") which contained previous exam questions for the Music Cultures of the World (MUH-2051) online course. In the fall of 2006, the former learning specialist asked the former tutor to review all the test answers in the binder to ensure all answers were correct. The former tutor did as requested. The amended binder contained questions and correct answers taken from the previous exams of the online course, which served as a "bank" of questions and answers from which all the questions and answers were randomly selected for subsequent exams. Between the fall of 2006 and the spring of 2007, the former learning specialist maintained the binder in her office and provided it to student-athletes upon request. She allowed them to use binder while they were taking exams in the course, even though the instructions from the online course stated that the exam was not to be taken using course texts or supplemental study guides. The binder was used by at least five student-athletes (one softball, two men's track and field and two football) when taking an exam for the online music course.
Additionally, during the exam, the former learning specialist provided at least one student-athlete (football) with the correct answers to some of the online exam questions for the music course. In total, the former learning specialist provided at least six student-athletes with either (1) the correct answers to the online exams, or (2) permitted the student-athletes to use her binder while taking their exams, in violation of the instructions from the online course instructor.
c. During the 2004-05 through 2006-07 academic years, the former learning specialist provided improper typing assistance on her word processor for at least three student-athletes. Specifically, the former learning specialist typed portions of the papers of the student-athletes who she believed had learning disabilities. Such assistance was not available to other student-athletes at the AASS facility, and institutional policy required that any accommodations to students with disabilities be provided through the Student Disability Resource Center (SDRC).
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d. During the 2006-07 academic year, the former tutor arranged for 55 student-athletes who were enrolled in the MUH-2051 course to receive fraudulent academic credit when he provided student-athletes with answers to online exam questions or assisted them in correctly answering the online exam questions.
e. During the 2006-07 academic year, the former academic advisor instructed the former tutor to provide answers to exam questions for student-athletes who were enrolled in the online music course. The former academic advisor also instructed at least seven track and field student-athletes (both men's and women's track and field) to be present in either the computer lab or tutorial rooms within the AASS area at a time when he knew the former tutor would be present to provide the student-athletes with correct answers for the MUH-2051 online exams. The former academic advisor advised the student-athletes that the assistance the former tutor provided was permissible. Committee Rationale The institution and the enforcement staff were in substantial agreement regarding the facts of Findings B-1-a through B-1-e and that these facts constituted violations of NCAA legislation. The former learning specialist disagrees that she violated NCAA bylaws relating to ethical conduct and extra benefits. Neither the former tutor nor the former academic advisor submitted written responses to the notice of allegations and the former academic advisor refused to cooperate with the investigation. The committee finds that the violations occurred and that they are major. Finding B-1-a Concerning Finding B-1-a, the facts of this finding were not in dispute. The former learning specialist agreed with the facts and acknowledged that she "made a mistake" when she requested that student-athlete 1 input answers to a quiz in an online Sports Psychology course on behalf of student-athlete 2. She contended, however, that her actions did not rise to the level of academic fraud because there was no motive on her part to provide correct answers on behalf of student-athlete 2.
The committee concludes that the former learning specialist's actions rose to the level of academic fraud. She logged into student-athlete 2's online academic account to determine whether he had completed his exam that was due that day. (Note: It was common practice in AASS for student-athletes to provide academic advisors with their user names and passwords for their online academic accounts.) When the former learning specialist observed that student-athlete 2 had not completed the exam, she
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attempted to call him. When she failed to reach the young man, she asked student-athlete 1 to input the answers on behalf of student-athlete 2 so that student-athlete 2 would not fail the quiz. Student-athlete 1 completed the quiz, answering all of the questions correctly. Student-athlete 2 was fraudulently credited with 10 out of 10 points on the quiz. In support of its conclusion that the former learning specialist committed academic fraud, the committee notes that the NCAA Division I Academic/Eligibility Compliance Cabinet Subcommittee on Legislative Interpretations issued an official interpretation dated September 6, 2000, that states, in relevant part: The subcommittee reviewed the application of Bylaw 10.1-(b) as it relates to academic fraud and agreed that the following guidelines generally should be used in determining whether an incident of academic fraud should be reported to the NCAA as a violation of Bylaw 10.1-(b) or should be handled exclusively at the institutional level in accordance with its policies applicable to all students. The subcommittee confirmed that an institution is required to report a violation of Bylaw 10.1-(b) any time an institutional staff member (e.g., coach, professor, tutor, teaching assistant) is knowingly involved in arranging fraudulent academic credit or false transcripts for a prospective or enrolled student-athlete, regardless of whether the institutional staff member acted alone or in concert with the prospective or enrolled student-athlete. Finding B-1-b Concerning Finding B-1-b, the institution and the enforcement staff agreed that the former learning specialist developed a so called "study guide" which contained answers to questions for the online music course exams and that the binder was used by several student-athletes to obtain answers in completing the exams. The institution could not confirm that in every instance a student-athlete used the binder, when taking the online music exams or that a student athlete obtained it directly from the former learning specialist. However, the institution agreed that the former learning specialist's involvement with the use of the binder violated NCAA ethical-conduct legislation. The institution and the enforcement staff agreed that the former learning specialist provided correct answers to at least one student-athlete on his online music course exams. The former learning specialist acknowledged that she kept the binder for the online music course in her office, to which student-athletes had access, but she denied that she expressly permitted student-athletes to use the binder during their exams.
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The so-called study guide consisted of a three-ring binder which contained past exams as well as various reference materials from the course textbook and workbook. The former learning specialist acknowledged that she asked the former tutor, who had an excellent command of the subject matter, for correct answers to exam questions. Over time, all the answers to all of the exam questions were accumulated in the binder/study guide. Five student-athletes reported that they used the information contained in the binder while taking the online exams in the music course. They reported the following information relative to use of the binder/study guide: Student-athlete 3, who took the online music course in the fall of 2006, reported that while she did not work directly with the former learning specialist, she used the binder on the exams.
Student-athlete 4, who took the music course in the spring of 2007, reported that he used the binder on all the tests and that he obtained the binder from the former learning specialist. Student-athlete 4 recalled waiting to receive it from her.
Student-athlete 5, who took the music course in the fall of 2006, reported that he used the binder to study for the first test. Student-athlete 5 also recalled that the binder had five examples of tests for the first exam and that one of the five was identical to the first test. For the remaining tests, he used the binder.
Student-athlete 6, who took the music course in the fall of 2006, reported that the binder was on a table in one of the tutorial rooms in the AASS building and he used the binder for his exams.
Student-athlete 7, who took the music course in the fall of 2006, reported that the former academic advisor told him that the binder was located outside of the learning specialist's office and had copies of old exams. He used the binder during the exams.
The committee concludes that academic fraud in the online music course was facilitated by the flawed process for administering the course exams. The online exams for the music course were not administered in a structured environment. There was no requirement for a proctor, and the institution acknowledged that there were insufficient safeguards in place to prevent students from obtaining exam answers. The professor who created the online music course reported that he taught the course for many years except during the spring and summer of 2006 when he was on sabbatical. Two other faculty members assumed the responsibility for teaching the course during the time the professor was on sabbatical. During this period, online exams were allowed to be completed open-
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book. The professor reported that while he was teaching the course, there was no question that the course had a closed-book exam format. The online page instructional sheet that accompanied the exam stated clearly that the exams were closed-book, and no notes and no assistance of any kind were permitted. While the exams had a time limit once they were open, they were available for approximately one week from any location. The students could print them off after the student took the exam, although the printed exams did not include the student's answers. Further, the course exam questions did not change from semester to semester. As stated earlier in this report, examinations were created from a limited pool of questions, and numerous copies of previous exams were available on campus. Previous examinations, as well as the answers to the questions on these examinations, were collected in the study guide/binder described above and maintained in the AASS area. At the hearing the institution was questioned about how online tests were administered in the AASS and how it viewed the involvement of tutors with student-athletes in the completion of examinations. The following exchange occurred: COMMITTEE MEMBER: Tutors sitting down and working on graded assignments is a very different thing, whether you want to say it is open book or not. (Former director of AASS), tell me about taking tests in the athletic academic center. Is there a room set apart when they are taking online tests, or are they out in wherever the students are anywhere? FORMER DIRECTOR OF AASS: The structure was supposed to be where the student would check in at the front desk. Our tutorial coordinator would assign them to a room, and they would be assigned to a specific room for testing… COMMITTEE MEMBER: But you would have to sign in saying I want to take an online test, or do you just sign in to say I want a room to study in? What would you be telling (the tutorial coordinator)? FORMER DIRECTOR OF AASS: The student would be telling (the tutorial coordinator) "I am scheduled to take my test today, and I need a room to take the test." Then what our students were doing, were supposed to be doing, were coming into the facility. If they were meeting with the tutor prior to taking the test, they would meet with the tutor for an hour before, review the materials, be prepared for the test, and then walk away from the tutor and go in and take their test. COMMITTEE MEMBER: Did you have any policy about tutors assisting on graded assignments?
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FORMER DIRECTOR OF AASS: We did, very much so. The first time I heard that a tutor was in a room with a student during the testing process was through our internal auditors in October '07. COMMITTEE MEMBER: But that says you were surprised to find that it happened. It doesn't say you had a policy in place in advance. FORMER DIRECTOR OF AASS: My answer to (the tutorial coordinator), when I heard that, was "how on earth would we even assume that we would ever let a tutor in a room with a student while they are testing?" COMMITTEE MEMBER: Were there written policies that said tutors may not assist on graded assignments? FORMER DIRECTOR OF AASS: I don't know if that was addressed in our tutorial manual or not. It was understood in our program that students were not to be with tutors while they are testing. COMMITTEE MEMBER: To the institution, is there anybody here today representing the institution who can state that it was appropriate for (the former learning specialist), or any tutor, to assist the students in a graded exercise, be it a test or a paper? Does the silence mean no? UNIVERSITY PROVOST: No. COMMITTEE MEMBER: Is there anybody there prior to this audit with knowledge of a tutor or (the former learning specialist) assisting a student in a graded exercise? FORMER DIRECTOR OF AASS: There was no knowledge on my part, no… UNIVERSITY PROVOST: No knowledge that I was aware of. COMMITTEE MEMBER: From the institution's point of view, what is wrong with that, a tutor or (the former learning specialist) assisting a student in a graded exercise? UNIVERSITY PROVOST: It is not the student's work. You are evaluating someone else's work, not the student's.
The written policies pertaining to the administration and testing in the online music course and the institution's policies in general with regard to the testing, contrasted sharply with the manner in which the former learning specialist viewed the administration of this course. Although the former learning specialist denied that she
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provided any student-athletes with answers to test questions during an exam, she reported that, in her estimation, the class was very open and "student-friendly" until some point in 2007. During the time in which the course exams were administered in an open-book fashion, the former learning specialist believed she could help a student-athlete who was taking an exam. She viewed giving a student-athlete answers to exam questions the same as serving as a resource to the student-athletes if they needed assistance with the exams. She also believed there were no parameters or restrictions placed on students while taking exams for this course. Her view of the course and how she could help student-athletes was confirmed by a football student-athlete who took the course in the spring of 2007. In this instance, the student-athlete ("student-athlete 8") reported that the former learning specialist provided him with answers on his music exams and when he got "stuck," the former learning specialist would lead him in the "right direction." This practice was also confirmed by the former tutor who reported that in the fall of 2006, the former learning specialist asked him for answers to the questions for the online music exam. As he answered the questions, the former learning specialist gave the answers that he provided to a student-athlete who was with her taking the exam. The former tutor stated that he also witnessed the same student entering the answers on the computer. During the hearing, the former learning specialist was questioned regarding her views of how she could assist a student-athlete with examinations associated with the online music course. COMMITTEE MEMBER: You see no difference, Doctor, in the preparation with a tutor and then the tutor assisting in a graded exercise? FORMER LEARNING SPECIALIST: If the class allowed for a tutor to be with them in an exercise, I see no difference. COMMITTEE MEMBER: Do you know of one class, one professor, one example where the professor said to a student, individually, or class-wise, that you can take this test with the assistance of another person, a tutor, you or somebody else? FORMER LEARNING SPECIALIST: In the music class, when it said open book, and the way the music class was structured, there was no restrictions placed on whether or not the students could use resources that were available to them, including a tutor, to help them prior to the class changes. COMMITTEE MEMBER: Does the institution have any position other than what I understand to be that it would be objectionable, unethical, to have an assistant during the time of an exam?
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UNIVERSITY PROVOST: It would be unethical and unacceptable. Finding B-1-c Concerning Finding B-1-c, it was originally alleged that the former learning specialist violated NCAA legislation by "editing" and typing portions of papers. The former learning specialist acknowledged that she typed handwritten "draft papers" on her word processor, but did not believe that this assistance violated NCAA legislation. The former learning specialist contended that, as a learning specialist, her job was to assess the needs of learning-disabled student-athletes and implement learning programs designed to assist learning disabled student-athletes with their learning deficiencies. The student-athletes whom she assisted had the kind of disabilities that required her assistance and, as stated in her response to the allegation, "us(ing) a word processor instead of a pen or pencil to aid in the development of a student's outline" was, in her view, permissible under the circumstances. After reviewing the information pertaining to this allegation, the committee finds that there was insufficient evidence to support a finding that the former learning specialist "edited" academic papers on behalf of student-athletes. Rather, the committee concludes that the improper assistance provided by the former learning specialist was limited to the typing of papers, or portions of papers, for student-athletes, an impermissible extra benefit. The institution agreed that an extra benefit had been provided, but concluded that academic fraud did not occur. The committee notes that AASS staff members observed the former learning specialist at a computer typing papers with student-athletes. As stated in the text of Finding B-1-c, the SDRC was the only entity on the institution's campus that had the authority to provide accommodations, to include typing, for students with disabilities. Finding B-1-d Concerning Finding B-1-d, the former tutor acknowledged that he provided answers to 55 student-athletes who were taking the MUH-2051 online course during the 2006-07 academic year. \ Finding B-1-e
Concerning Finding B-1-e, the former academic advisor instructed the former tutor to provide answers to exam questions for student-athletes who were enrolled in the online
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music course, the institution believed that there was insufficient information to conclude that the former academic advisor instructed the former tutor to provide answers. However, the committee notes that seven student-athletes reported that the former academic advisor told them to either work with the former tutor or that the tutor would help them with the online music course exams. Moreover, the former tutor reported that the former academic advisor instructed him to provide answers to student-athletes during the taking of the exam for the online music course. The former academic advisor also instructed at least seven student-athletes to be present in either the computer lab or tutorial rooms within the AASS area at a time when he knew the former tutor would be present to provide the student-athletes with correct answers for the music course's online exams. The committee concludes that the information reported by seven student-athletes and the former tutor was credible. All seven of the student-athletes were student-athletes for whom the former academic advisor had responsibility. In addition, all of them received either an A or a B in the course when they originally took it. [Note: In the spring of 2008 all 61 student-athletes who had remaining eligibility were required to retake the course after the academic fraud was discovered. Of these 61 student-athletes who retook the course, two received the same or an improved grade, while the remaining 59 received a lesser grade.] The committee concludes that the former academic advisor directed the student-athletes to seek the former tutor because the former academic advisor knew that the former tutor was providing answers to the online music course exams. In doing so, the former academic advisor violated the principles of ethical conduct. Further, despite repeated requests by both the institution and the enforcement staff to interview him, the former academic advisor refused to speak to investigators and therefore did not respond to the allegations made against him. Moreover, after the hearing, the committee sent a letter to the former academic advisor informing him of the committee's decision to charge him with a failure to cooperate and providing him an opportunity to respond. No response was received to this letter. As a result, the committee alleged, and ultimately found that, in addition to academic fraud, the former academic advisor also violated ethical conduct legislation by refusing to furnish information relevant to the investigation and, further, violated the cooperative principle. Specifically: On September 27, 2007, the former academic advisor refused a request by the institution's outside consultant to meet for an in-person interview.
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In the fall of 2007, the former academic advisor did not respond to requests for an interview made by the institution's legal counsel.
On November 7, 8 and 9, 2007, the enforcement staff left telephone messages with the former academic advisor requesting a meeting to discuss matters pertaining to the case. The former academic advisor did not respond.
On November 20, 2007, the enforcement staff made a written request of the former academic advisor to interview with the enforcement staff and the institution. The former academic advisor refused to participate.
On February 20, 2008, the enforcement staff sent a letter to the former academic advisor again requesting an interview. No response to the letter was received.
Via a January 8, 2009, letter, the committee informed the former academic advisor that it was alleging unethical conduct and a failure to cooperate against him due to above cited instances when he either refused to meet with investigators or did not respond to attempts to interview him. The committee provided the former academic advisor an opportunity to respond to the allegation. No response was received.
This lack of cooperation by the former academic advisor violated both NCAA ethical conduct legislation and the principle of cooperation.
2. FAILURE TO MONITOR. [NCAA Constitution 2.8.1]
The scope and nature of the violations detailed in this report demonstrates that the institution failed to monitor certain aspects of its AASS program. Specifically, the institution failed to (a) detect that the AASS director did not sufficiently review or forward to the institution's NCAA compliance staff information available to him concerning potential violations of NCAA legislation involving the former learning specialist; (b) monitor the AASS area to ensure that the Music Cultures of the World (MUH-2051) exams were taken in an appropriate, structured environment; (c) detect that the AASS area operated contrary to its policies when the former learning specialist and the former tutor were permitted to be present when student-athletes took online exams for the online music course and (d) review a contemporaneous report generated by the registrar's office for the 2006-07 academic year, which reflected that the grades obtained by student-athletes in the MUH-2051 course were higher on average than grades obtained by nonstudent-athletes in this course. Committee Rationale
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The institution and the enforcement staff were in substantial agreement as to the facts of this finding and that violations of NCAA legislation occurred. The committee finds that the violation occurred and it is major. C. PENALTIES. For the reasons set forth in Parts A and B of this report, the Committee on Infractions finds that this case involves several major violations of NCAA legislation. In determining the appropriate penalties to impose, the committee considered the institution's self-imposed penalties and corrective actions. [Note: The institution's corrective actions are contained in Appendix Two.] Further, the committee considered the institution's cooperation in this case. It determined that the cooperation exhibited by the institution met its obligation under Bylaw 32.1.4, Cooperative Principle, which requires member institutions to cooperate in investigations. As stated in the introduction of this report, academic fraud is among the most egregious of NCAA violations. The committee was concerned with the large number of student-athletes involved in the fraud and especially by the fact that individuals within the institution's AASS unit were involved. The committee was further troubled by the fact that there were warning signs indicating that academic improprieties were taking place, but these warning signs were, for the most part, ignored. The committee imposes the following penalties (the institution's self-imposed penalties are so noted): 1. Public reprimand and censure. 2. Four years of probation commencing March 6, 2009, and concluding March 5, 2013. (The institution placed the institution's athletics program on probation for a period of two years, beginning on February 13, 2008). 3. Limits in the number of grant-in-aids in football, men's and women's basketball, men's and women's swimming, men's and women's track and field, baseball, softball and men’s golf. The committee assessed the limitations in grants-in-aid to be imposed in each sport by focusing on the number of student-athletes found to have committed violations. The decision as to the scope of the reductions was affected by the fact that there was ineligible participation and the violations clearly warranted a vacation penalty. Had no vacation penalty been imposed, the scholarship limitations would have been more stringent. The following grant limitations were imposed:
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Football: Limit to 83 total grants in 2008-09, 82 in 2009-10 and 84 in 2010-11. [Note 1: The maximum allowed under NCAA legislation is 85. Note 2: for 2008-09, the institution self-imposed two grant reductions from the maximum allowed (=83) and will self-impose three reductions for 2009-10 (=82). The committee imposed an additional reduction of one grant from the maximum in 2010-11 (=84). Note 3: The institution averaged 84.25 total grants the previous 4 years.]
Men's Basketball: Limit to 12 total grants in 2008-09 and 12 in either 2009-10 or 2010-11. [Note 1: The maximum allowed under NCAA legislation is 13. Note 2: for 2008-09 the institution self-imposed a reduction of one from the maximum allowed (=12). The committee imposed an additional reduction of 1 grant from the maximum to be taken in either the 2009-10 or 2010-11 academic years, at the university’s discretion.] Note 3: The institution averaged 11.75 grants the previous four years.]
Women's Basketball: Limit to 13 grants in 2008-09. The committee imposed an additional limitation of 13 grants to be taken in either the 2009-10 or 2010-11 academic years at the university’s discretion. [Note 1: the maximum allowed is 15. Note 2: The institution averaged 13 grants in women's basketball the previous four years.]
Baseball: Limit to 11.33 grants in 2008-09. [Note 1: the maximum allowed is 11.7. Note 2: The university averaged 11.69 grants the previous four years.] (Institution imposed)
Men's Swimming: Limit to 9.1 grants in 2008-09. [Note 1: The maximum allowed is 9.9. Note 2: The institution averaged 9.82 grants the previous four years.] (Institution imposed)
Women's Swimming: Limit to 12.8 grants in 2008-09. The committee imposed an additional limitation to 12 grants to be imposed in either the 2009-10 or 2010-11 academic years, at the university’s discretion. [Note 1: The maximum allowed is 14. Note 2: The institution averaged 12.93 grants the previous four years.]
Men's Track and Field: Limit to 12.1 grants in 2008-09. [Note 1; The maximum allowed is 12.6. Note 2: The institution averaged 12.58 grants the previous four years] (Institution imposed)
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Women's Track and Field: Limit to 17.32 grants in 2008-09. [Note 1: The maximum allowed is 18. Note 2: The institution averaged 17.97 grants the previous four years.] (Institution imposed)
Softball: Limit to 11 grants in 2008-09 and 11.95 in 2009-10. [Note 1: The maximum allowed is 12. Note 2: The institution averaged 11.81 grants the previous four years.] (Institution imposed)
Men’s Golf: Limit to 4.36 grants in 2008-09. [Note 1: The maximum allowed is 4.5. Note 2: The institution averaged 4.45 grants the previous four years.] (Institution imposed)
4. The violations in this case involve all the factors identified by the committee as particularly relevant to imposition of a vacation penalty in a major case: there were a large number of violations – the violations were committed by a minimum of 61 student-athletes in 10 separate sports; the violations were serious and intentional; student-athletes competed while academically ineligible; there was a finding of institutional failure to monitor; there was wide-spread academic fraud; the academic fraud was perpetrated purposefully by three different individuals in the institution's academic athletic support services, including the former learning specialist. Their culpability was especially egregious as they were among the institutional staff members with particular responsibility to maintain academic integrity; their conduct resulted in unethical conduct findings against each of them. The institution evaluated its processes and staff culpability and concluded that it had prime responsibility for the academic fraud. Pursuant to NCAA Bylaws 19.5.2.2-(e)-(2) and 31.2.2.3-(b), the institution will vacate all wins in which the 61 student-athletes in the sports of football, men's and women's basketball, men's and women's swimming, men's and women's track, baseball, softball and men’s golf competed while ineligible during 2006 and 2007. This includes regular season contests, post-season contests and any NCAA championship competition. The individual records of the student-athletes shall be vacated as well. Further, the institution's records regarding all of the involved sports, as well as the records of the head coaches of those sports will reflect the vacated records and will be recorded in all publications in which these records are reported, including, but not limited to, institution media guides, recruiting material, electronic and digital media plus institution and NCAA archives. Any public reference to tournament performances won during this time shall be removed, including, but not limited to, athletics department stationery and banners displayed in public areas such as the venues in which the specified teams compete. Finally, to ensure that all institutional and student-athlete vacations, statistics and records are accurately reflected in official NCAA publication and archives, the sports information director (or other designee as assigned by the
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director of athletics) must contact the NCAA director of statistics to identify the specific student-athlete(s) and contest(s) impacted by the penalties. In addition, the institution must provide a written report to the NCAA statistics department detailing those discussions with the director of statistics. This document will be maintained in the permanent files of the statistics department. This written report must be delivered to the NCAA statistics department no later than 90 days following the initial Committee on Infractions release or, if the vacation penalty is appealed, the final adjudication of the appeals process. 5. The above-listed penalties are independent of and supplemental to any action that has been or may be taken by the Committee on Academic Performance through its assessment of contemporaneous, historical, or other penalties. 6. Due to the widespread academic fraud in this case, and in accordance with Bylaw 19.5.2.7, the NCAA will forward a copy of the public infractions report to the appropriate regional accrediting agency. 7. Because of the former learning specialist's involvement in the academic fraud set forth in this report, any NCAA institution which employs her during a four-year period commencing with the date of this report (March 6, 2009) shall, pursuant to the provisions of Bylaw 19.5.2.2-(l), show cause why it should not be penalized if it does not restrict the former learning specialist from having any contact with student-athletes. This restriction shall remain in effect until March 5, 2013. Further, any institution that employs the former learning specialist during the specified four-year period shall submit a report to the Director - Committees on Infractions no later than 30 days after it first employs the former learning specialist. The report shall set forth the employing institution's understanding of the above-listed penalty in effect at the time of initial employment and its responsibilities to monitor compliance. The report also shall set forth how the employing institution will monitor her conduct to assure compliance with the penalty. Thereafter every year until March 5, 2013, an employing institution will submit a supplemental report that continues to document its monitoring of the former learning specialist and compliance rules education provided to the former learning specialist. At the end of this four-year period, or upon termination of employment while the show-cause order is in effect, the president of the employing institution shall provide a letter to the committee affirming that the penalty was complied with during the time of employment at the employing institution. If the president is unable to so affirm, he shall so inform the committee.
8. With regard to the former academic advisor, the limitations set forth in Penalty C-7 shall apply, with the exception that it will be in effect for a period of five years
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rather than four (March 6, 2009, to March 5, 2014). The additional year of the show-cause penalty is due to the former academic advisor's refusal to cooperate with the investigation. 9. With regard to the former tutor, the limitations set forth in Penalty C-7 shall apply, with the exception that it will be in effect for a period of three years rather than four (March 6, 2009, to March 5, 2012). 10. During this period of probation, the institution shall: a. Continue to develop and implement a comprehensive educational program on NCAA legislation, including seminars and testing, to instruct the coaches, the faculty athletics representative, all athletics department personnel and all institution staff members with responsibility for the certification of student-athletes for admission, retention, financial aid or competition; b. Submit a preliminary report to the office of the Committees on Infractions by May 15, 2009, setting forth a schedule for establishing this compliance and educational program; and c. File with the office of the Committees on Infractions annual compliance reports indicating the progress made with this program by October 15 of each year during the probationary period. Particular emphasis should be placed on monitoring to ensure academic integrity is maintained and to provide education to student-athletes on the importance of adherence to high standards of conduct in their academic affairs. The reports must also include documentation of the institution's compliance with the penalties adopted and imposed by the committee. 11. At the conclusion of the probationary period, the institution's president shall provide a letter to the committee affirming that the institution's current athletics policies and practices conform to all requirements of NCAA regulations. _____________________________________________________ As required by NCAA legislation for any institution involved in a major infractions case, Florida State University shall be subject to the provisions of NCAA Bylaw 19.5.2.3, concerning repeat violators, for a five-year period beginning on the effective date of the penalties in this case, March 6, 2009.
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Should Florida State University or the involved individual appeal either the findings of violations or penalties in this case to the NCAA Infractions Appeals Committee, the Committee on Infractions will submit a response to the members of the appeals committee. The Committee on Infractions advises the institution that it should take every precaution to ensure that the terms of the penalties are observed. The committee will monitor the penalties during their effective periods. Any action by the institution contrary to the terms of any of the penalties or any additional violations shall be considered grounds for extending the institution's probationary period or imposing more severe sanctions or may result in additional allegations and findings of violations. An institution that employs a coach while a show-cause order is in effect and fails to adhere to the penalties imposed subjects itself to allegations and findings of violations. Should any portion of any of the penalties in this case be set aside for any reason other than by appropriate action of the Association, the penalties shall be reconsidered by the Committee on Infractions. Should any actions by NCAA legislative bodies directly or indirectly modify any provision of these penalties or the effect of the penalties, the committee reserves the right to review and reconsider the penalties. NCAA COMMITTEE ON INFRACTIONS Eileen K. Jennings Andrea (Andi) Myers Alfred J. Lechner, Jr. James (Jim) Park Jr. Josephine (Jo) R. Potuto Dennis E. Thomas, vice (acting) chair
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APPENDIX ONE CASE CHRONOLOGY. 2007 March 28 - Officials from Florida State University were made aware that the former learning specialist within the AASS unit had provided impermissible assistance to a former men's basketball student-athlete taking a sports psychology online quiz. April 2007 – The institution's president requested the institution's office of audit services to investigate this academic matter to determine whether the incident was isolated or if there was evidence of a more widespread pattern of similar behavior among employees in the AASS unit. April 3 – The former learning specialist was placed on administrative leave. June 20- The former tutor resigned his position after he acknowledged providing improper academic assistance to student-athletes in the MUH-2051 online course. July 27 – The former director of athletics and the associate director of athletics for compliance telephoned the NCAA vice president of enforcement, to inform him that the institution had begun investigating academic irregularities within the athletics department. September 26 – The vice president of enforcement was notified by letter that the institution completed its initial investigation and identified 22 student-athletes who were involved in varying levels of academic misconduct related to the MUH-2051 online course. October 16 - The institution submitted a request for the restoration of athletics eligibility to the NCAA student-athlete restatement staff for the initial group of student-athletes who admitted to committing academic fraud in the MUH-2051 online course. November 7 - The NCAA student-athlete reinstatement staff rendered a decision for the initial group of student-athletes who were identified as having committed academic fraud. November 7, 8, and 9 - The enforcement staff telephoned the former academic advisor and requested an in-person interview to discuss his knowledge of and involvement in possible violations of NCAA legislation. November 20 - The enforcement staff submitted a letter to the former academic advisor requesting an in-person interview.
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November 21 – The former academic advisor telephoned the enforcement staff and indicated by voicemail that he had no interest in participating in any interviews with the enforcement staff. November 21 - The NCAA student-athlete reinstatement staff apprised the institution that it accepted the institution's 30-percent reduction penalty with the understanding that the 30-percent penalty would be available only to those student-athletes who previously had been forthcoming and admitted that they had committed academic fraud and to student-athletes who came forward in the immediate future and acknowledged their involvement in academic fraud regarding the MUH-2051 online course. December 21 - The NCAA student-athlete reinstatement staff restored with conditions the eligibility of the initial group of student-athletes who admitted to committing academic fraud. 2008 February 12 - The institution submitted a self-report to the NCAA enforcement staff. February 20 - The NCAA enforcement staff made another request in writing to the former academic advisor and requested that he participate in an in-person interview. February 25 - The enforcement staff submitted a notice of inquiry to the institution. June 10 - The enforcement staff submitted a notice of allegations to the president of the institution, the former learning specialist, the former tutor and the former academic advisor. June 11 – The former tutor informed the enforcement staff that he would not participate in the processing of this case. September 11 - The institution submitted its response to the notice of allegations. September 13 – The former learning specialist submitted her response to the notice of allegations. September 19 - The enforcement staff conducted a prehearing conference with the former learning specialist. October 18 – The institution and the former learning specialist (along with her legal counsel) appeared before the NCAA Division I Committee on Infractions.
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2009 January 8 – The committee notified the former academic advisor that it was alleging unethical conduct and a failure to monitor against him due to his refusal to submit to an interview with institutional and NCAA officials. March 6 – Infractions Report No. 294 is released.
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APPENDIX TWO CORRECTIVE ACTIONS AS LISTED IN THE INSTITUTION'S September 10, 2008, RESPONSE TO THE NOTICE OF ALLEGATIONS. The institution has (or will) implement several corrective actions. They include the following: 1. Did not renew the contracts of both the former learning specialist and the former tutor.
2. Removed the then director of the AASS from his position.
3. Required all athletics department administrative and non-administrative staff to attend a four-hour training program instructed by the compliance consultant on "Decision Making in the NCAA Compliance Environment".
4. Disassociated the former academic advisor from the institution due to his: (a) involvement in violations set forth in this report and (b) refusal to cooperate with this inquiry by refusing to interview with the institution or the NCAA Enforcement Staff.
5. Reviewed and enhance the working relationship between the learning specialist positions within the AASS and the SDRC and consider relocating the AASS learning specialist positions to the SDRC.
6. The institution has made significant changes in the AASS unit and in the administration of the athletics department.
7. In the summer of 2007 an internal audit was conducted. Numerous student-athletes and staff were interviewed in order to determine whether procedures should be modified or added. The audit staff issued a report with several recommendations. After its reorganization, the AASS staff agreed to implement these recommendations and detailed specific activities to obtain that goal. The actions below highlight some of the auditors' recommendations and additional actions developed by the institution:
A. Encouraged student-athletes with disabilities to register with and take advantage of the services provided to them by the University Student Disability Resource Center (SDRC). B. Ensured that the director of AASS has the available information concerning the determination of whether a student-athlete is considered learning disabled. C. Developed a policy for the AASS to report all known violations of the academic honor code to the dean of the faculties.
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D. Adopted a policy that AASS staff has only "view only" access to the student-athletes' "blackboard" information, which would strengthen security over the student-athletes' information and help protect their accounts from possible misuse by others. E. Implemented a institution-wide practice in which all online exams that count for significant credit in an undergraduate course are given in a structured environment under the supervision of a proctor. F. Enhanced monitoring of trends in grades of students in online courses. G. Developed a system within the AASS concerning tutorial assignments for student-athletes, including the identification of student-athletes assigned to each tutor for each semester. H. Reviewed and strengthen the Academic Honor Policy to accommodate situations when numerous students are involved in an academic irregularity when the institution had primary responsibility for the violation. I. Required more frequent communication between the athletics department, the AASS, and the dean of undergraduate students. While such communication is helpful for all areas, this relates primarily to discussions about the AASS. J. Required all student-athletes to receive information on the type of assistance that is permissible by tutors. K. Improved monitoring procedures for tutors in the AASS. L. Required all log-ons with all institution servers to be recorded and those recordings to be retained. M. Retained a consultant firm to review the AASS and make appropriate recommendations. N. Established guidelines concerning student-athletes and tutors for student-athletes to sign prior to the beginning of their tutorial relationship. O. Will review the appropriate reporting lines for the AASS.
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344 comments
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Comments
Mr. Thomas leads it off.
Prepare to have them bash us quite a bit. Remember that the only thing that matters are the actual penalties, not the tongue lashing.
FSU won't appeal, right?
Isn’t the speculation that we have been bargaining the past few months? This is what we managed to agree to? God knows what they originally wanted to do.
If we did appeal,
could the NCAA impose harsher penalties in a “oh yeah, that’ll teach you to complain!” move?
The delay in releasing this...
should be attributed to what I would call, pre-appeal… at least that is what I have been hearing. Meaning, the NCAA and FSU discussed this prior to Friday, March 6th to ensure there is no messy post appeal.
But, I could be completely wrong.
The most important item to most fans:
Football: Limit to 83 total grants in 2008-09, 82 in 2009-10 and 84 in 2010-11. [Note 1: The maximum allowed under NCAA legislation is 85. Note 2: for 2008-09, the institution self-imposed two grant reductions from the maximum allowed (=83) and will self-impose three reductions for 2009-10 (=82). The committee imposed an additional reduction of one grant from the maximum in 2010-11 (=84). Note 3: The institution averaged 84.25 total grants the previous 4 years.]
The other sports might not be...
But football is GOLDEN!!!
They gave us 4 additional reductions. 3 this year and 1 next.
Bad, come on now… from what I understood she was honest about it when questioned and fessed up. Many others didn’t.
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't." - General George S. Patton
I agree
cost a nat’l championship. That is the only thing that I am extremely angry about. She ought to be ashamed of herself.
As far as football is concerned, I agree with FSUn and everyone else who says we got away pretty clean. Hopefully Bobby realizes the win record is out of reach. Call it a good bye tour under the premise that we win the ACC, have our team go bonkers, he leaves as king of the ACC mountain for one last time.
I do not make qualms for cheaters.
She should have had the integrity to not cheat, along with the other athletes and students for that matter who cheated.
I'm having at least 6 beers right after work to celebrate.
Guess what kind?
BYE BYE BOWDEN! WOO HOO! Roll out the red carpet for his majesty.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm pretty pumped for football.
Not knowing was the worst part.
This Mr. Thomas guy is an idiot.
His answer “course was open to all students”.
Can’t answer questions. He seems inept.
Censored, I took that class too
Got a D.
…and before anyone asks, NO, I was not privy to the cheat sheet.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
So can somebody summarize
this is my understanding
Football:
Lose all games from 2006 and 2007 (Thats 14 games)
Lose 3 schollies this year 2009 and 1 next year
Basketball
1 schollie next year
Track:
We lose last year NC
I dont care about the other sports enough to summarize them into that much of detail
Andrew Carter has a deep voice? Didn't see that one coming.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
Dennis Dodd... CBS Sports.com
Even if 1 eligible player pariticpated ina ny of those football games… the wins are vacated for both years?
Is committee aware of the NCAA ALLTIME wins record?
Committee only reviews the facts and the records or gravity of the impact have no bearing.
Jim lamar... Tallahsee Democrat
if team has to vacate postseason competition… do monies need to be given back?
Sucks for the track team
Why can’t we do something like how UF lists their vacated SEC Titles as “1st in the SEC”
"I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."-Bill Hicks
by Jonathan Loesche on Mar 6, 2009 3:23 PM EST reply actions
Jim Lamar...
track and field… participation… if athlete competed at national meet, but didn’t score a point, does the whole team need to vacate?
so Bobby take sthe biggest hit on this right
We only lose 1 scolly this year and 3 next, and probation again. thats about it.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Reverse that, Desman....
We lose 3 this year and 1 next.
We only have 80 players anyway.
Givens and 1 more guy can get their scholarships.
but Bobby takes the big hit right.
Im not realy to worried about scholarships because there are of 75Bil out there we can get a walk on with.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
What is really sad is that the member of the softball team that cheated
was supposedly the leader and best player.
Rick Haulstead
University VP… says… they didn’t play ineligible players… so they shouldn’t have to vacate games.
As for the rest
About what you could ask for. When this first broke I thought the team was headed for something like what happened to UF in the mid 80s. Only thing now is maybe all those vacated wins convince Bobby to hang it up early
"I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."-Bill Hicks
by Jonathan Loesche on Mar 6, 2009 3:26 PM EST reply actions
Yes sir
That’s all I want for Christmas… for Bob to hang it up.
I promise to be good this year!
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
I will shave my head and joing a convent
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
Scott Carter... Noleinsider
Difficult part is identifying… how concerned are you that FSU can identify them within the alloted 90 days?
FSU self reported after the players participated in fraudulent course taking, so...
OBVIOUSLY the university wasn’t playing guys knowing they were ineligible.
clarify: FSU's contention: they didn't knowingly play the players.
does the timeline begin when we self reported, or is it even when they didn’t know.
No answer here.
We want to know if we will be penalized for the games they played in before we were aware of the situation…
Are you saying there is a chance they won't forfeit the 06/07 football wins?
Because I can’t take emotional swings like that…
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
Are you trying to make me break down and cry?
We, as a team, NEED those vaacancies.
It’s the only way to progress.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
This is good news imo.
We just need to behave ourselves for the next 4 years.
If FSU was smart, they would say, we will HAPPILY give up the victories in exchange for the Trach NC
I don't think we get to load up the punishments on certian areas of misconduct so other areas don't feel the sting.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
Yeah this sounds like we got lucky on these penalties ...
great job Uncensored on keeping us up to date!
Mizell was the best linebacker in the country, arguably, last year.
And he knocked his former HC, that called him a ni**er, out. Then, rode in a car in which his friend had planted drugs.
Hardly damning.
Anger issues plus bad crowds to hang out with... how much worse do you think it will get when he gets into the swing of things at FSU?
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
Hah, oh wait, i think im catching on...
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
Which means recruiting A LOT OF guys with questionable character needs to stop
Fixed. You need to take some chances; you just need to hedge your bets
Remember our discussion on
knowing all your kids so that you can figure out how many bad apples you really have?
Online education...
very difficult, b/c the # of student athletes and the academic support unit.
Narrow in scope but very serious nonetheless.
Guys, how do you think this will effect EJ Manuel's thoughts on the program?
I remember specifically him being quoted in the 2007 recruiting season as saying our coaches told FSU didn’t commit any violations and will be found innocent… Not to worry about it.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
No they don't.
The conference call would last a week…
haha
How sad is it that we are learning how to write questions in a way that is broad and specific at the same time. I am learning there really is an art to it.
It took them 7 attempts to ask:
Games involving ineligible players participated are vacated, but is a player ineligible as soon as he cheats or upon the self reporting date?
Brent Haulstead...
math question… when FSU became aware, the players sat out the bowl game…
will there be more suspensions? No.
YES! THE ANSWER IS YES.
THE GUYS WHO PLAYED IN THE GAMES AFTER CHEATING BUT BEFORE BEING REPORTED BY FSU… THOSE GAMES ARE VACATED.
Ear Muffs!
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
What the heck is Bianchi doing on the call?
This isn’t the SEC, nor Gator sports…
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
That bald-headed midget is a buffoon.
I’ll never forget when Mike Lamb called him that on Sports Talk Live.
He went to UF right?
Ive never looked him up, but his arrogance and overall D-bag look screams gator.
Hilarious, and appropriate.
I wish we had a school of journalism that could rival the propaganda that horrid university perpetuates.
When/how do they become elligible again once they cheated?
A player caught cheating isnt ineligible the rest of his career (I don’t think). How long would he have to sit out. Basically, if ineligibility results in a 4 game suspension, then the most that could be affected is 4 games. If its a season, then any game that season could be affected.
Andrew Carter
wants to clarify
“no evidence that university knowingly played ineligible athletes”
that doesn’t matter, but it helped us get lesser penalties.
It doesns't seem that our self imposed penalties really helped, though the committee says that we would have
received stiffer penalties had we not self imposed.
Hate to interrupt, but this is unbelievably good news!
My only remaining concern is the track championship, and if I’m understanding correctly, even that isn’t out the window yet? (No need for anyone to answer this – I understand we’re awaiting clarification.)
I can not believe the break we got in football schollies. I hope everyone realizes that this is a slap on the wrist with the only real penalty to our football program being some negative media that will last throughout FSU’s SPRING BREAK! When it continues beyond that, FSU will be forced to move Jimbo Fisher further forward as the fresh, young face of the program.
Enjoy the FSU meltdown around the web because it’s funny (even though it’s sad), remeber that Gator fans are pathetic and are fuming on the inside, and to my friends at Tomahawk Nation – Go Noles!!
by TRMNole on Mar 6, 2009 3:43 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
However they can spin it...
I pray they don’t spin it in the direction of NOT forfeiting football games.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
Hey Guys since you're on the conference calls now
Are you going to be writing the site with your real names?
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't." - General George S. Patton
Ah okay… I would refrain from using the “legitimate media outlet” term then… although I must say kudos on the coverage, I enjoyed it. Site worked nicely too with the live comments.
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't." - General George S. Patton
That's a point I hadn't thought of.
I might change the name then.
My main reason for not doing it was that I didn’t want to deal with a bunch of hate-mail or crazies.
That does not suprise me....
more and more paper media is a dying breed
by UnstopaNole99! on Mar 6, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Damn, interesting
I tried to get credentials for the Jaguars draft day conferences and they basically told me to F-off.
"I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."-Bill Hicks
by Jonathan Loesche on Mar 6, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Wouldn't the other bright spot be that it IS the end of the work week?
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
Gotta Work on a rental property so really is not the end of the work week....
just the office work is over
by UnstopaNole99! on Mar 6, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
Just got this from FSU sports info
Florida State University officials said today that they are pleased that the National Collegiate Athletic Association’s Committee on Infractions accepted the findings of its investigative committee and acknowledged that nearly all of the penalties self-imposed by the university were appropriate.
However, because it never knowingly played student-athletes who were ineligible and followed eligibility guidelines with which the NCAA agreed, the university will seek clarification of a specific penalty requiring it to vacate wins and will consider its appellate opportunities under NCAA procedures.
The NCAA issued its sanctions today for violations that occurred in connection with an online course in the fall semester of 2006, the spring semester of 2007, and the summer of 2007.
The NCAA reported no additional institutional findings beyond what the university had discovered. The NCAA also did not find a lack of institutional control. And it did not impose any sanctions that would restrict the university’s ability to compete in postseason competition this year or in any future years.
The NCAA also found that no coaching staff members were involved in any impropriety. The violations occurred in the athletic academic-advising sector of the university and not in the coaching sector.
“We believe that the NCAA confirmed that our investigative efforts and our self-imposed penalties were appropriate,” said Florida State President T.K. Wetherell. “We already began implementing our self-imposed penalties. And we will begin implementing all but one of the NCAA’s additional sanctions.”
“We just don’t understand the sanction to vacate all wins in athletics contests in which ineligible student-athletes competed because we did not allow anyone who we knew was ineligible to compete. Our position throughout the inquiry was that as soon as we knew of a problem, they didn’t play.”
Florida State Athletic Director Randy Spetman also offered a similar opinion on the vacation-of-records sanction.
“Our independent investigation concluded that our coaches did not know about the academic misconduct and never knowingly played any ineligible student-athlete,” Spetman said. “The NCAA’s report does not dispute that conclusion. Some of our student-athletes engaged in academic misconduct — and we will suffer the consequences — but I believe vacating wins is just wrong.”
Spetman, who was not the Florida State athletic director when the NCAA violations occurred, also said he was impressed by the university’s detailed and exhaustive investigation and thorough examination of all academic records in the case. “No stone was left unturned,” he said.
Wetherell concluded, “We had a serious issue occur on this campus. We discovered the violations, hired an outside compliance group to undertake a thorough and impartial inquiry, encouraged other student-athletes to come forward, and imposed significant penalties — all actions we believe were validated by the NCAA. We will seriously consider our appeal options after having further discussions with the NCAA.”
The university’s initial investigation into possible NCAA violations stemmed from a student-athlete’s report of a questionable incident to a staff member. The university’s administration took action at this first hint of impropriety in March of 2007 and immediately began a thorough and exhaustive inquiry, including extensive examinations of computer records and files to search for any evidence of impropriety regarding NCAA or university rules.
so their argument is they didnt knowingly play inelgible players
so we shouldnt vacate those wins….
however it sounded as if the NCAA doesnt care and if they played knowingly or not we should vacate the wins
Yeah, and this is possibly just lip service to the Bowden crowd.
No way they screw with the NCAA after this light spanking on a foam-padded fanny. (Is there?) I guess we’ll see.
But I was glad to see that Randy was on the SAME PAGE! as TK. With these two guys in charge, anything is possible. (You know, in a bad way.)
Bobby Bowden deserves the University to fight for him.
You know my feelings on his performance of late, but he does not deserve this.
This penalty (well, the football part of it) is put squarely on his shoulders and no one else’s. I can guarantee you, even if everyone else in the world knew these guys were cheating, he didn’t.
Florida State should do everything they can to help him keep his legacy short of harming the future of the program.
I actually applaud TK and Randy for standing up for this.
But they should sit down if it costs us too much more.
Bobby Bowden doesn’t deserve this particular stain on his career, especially if it costs him his goal. HE had nothing to do with this scandal.
Besides... I think the University has a point.
The NCAA agrees that they punished the athletes accordingly and that the university did everything it could once it knew of the problem. The NCAA also has said that FSU was not negligant in finding out the details (otherwise there would have been a “Lack of Institutional Control” tag).
Yet, the NCAA will punish Florida State for playing the players who cheated when the University had NO IDEA that they cheated at the time, nor (by the NCAA’s own findings) COULD it have known nor SHOULD it have known.
There is an incongruency in the conclusion that I think Florida State is justified in pointing out.
Again, once USC gets punished for Reggie Bush accepting benefits, even if the school claims it didn’t know, then I’ll accept this punishment.
I can't argue with your frustration one bit.
I think it’s illustrative of the reason we’ve all been up in arms about the track championship. I mean, are any among us really that big into track? Sure, we peek everytime we stroll past Mike Long, and we know all the football players and that guy named Walter Dix most recently, but I bet for most of us the reason it was a major point of contention along with our real concerns like, you know, football, was because it’s just plain sad to see the NCAA take something away from good, hard-working kids who didn’t do a single thing wrong. There’s no question the penalty in unjustified.
Nice analysis.
You’re right it seems inconsistent. But this seemingly inconsistent punishment may be a concession for the reduced scholarships.
That's always been my concern though. (Harming the future.)
I was always afraid we’d offer up schollies to keep the wins. (Unfounded as it may have been – probably just the result of some good-natured speculating/BS’ing on here, but the thought stuck with me.) And well anyway, now we’ve been slapped on the wrist. What leverage can we possibly have now besides those scholarships?
That said, if FSU can get the wins back, sure, I’m all for it. (And of course they won’t now publicly hand over more scholarships.) The only problem is I’m pretty sure Nattylite’s already drunk by now.
What if we let them take away all of our NIT appearances in the Leonard Hamilton era?
I don’t remember those fondly anyway.
Wow, now we're just getting greedy.
And can you believe the spoiled brat typing this sentence used to complain during the Pat Kennedy era?
I have personally just vacated the last 15 years of FSU basketball from my mind. Hmm, maybe the NCAA is onto something. Think about it: How many times did you watch the FSU football team in 2006 and say, “I wish this wasn’t happening?” Now it didn’t! Thank you, NCAA!
MattD, I’ve changed my mind again! Can we vacate just Jeff Bowden’s wins? Or only his record as offensive coordinator?
While we are vacating bad memories....
Can we vacate some of those baseball super regionals, too?
I complained during the Kennedy years, too. I guess the Elite Eight wasn’t good enough for me. So I traded that for NIT first round busts.
I remember the arguments....
“The year we made it to the second round, we should have made it to the Sweet 16! The next year we made it to the Sweet 16, and we should have made it to the Elite 8!! And the year after that we made it to the Elite 8, and we should have made it to the Final Four!!! And now we can’t do anything with a talent like Bob Sura!!!!”
Vacated.
Jaw... Drops... On... The....Floor.....
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
Mine's STILL on the floor...
…but I didn’t think MattD’s feeling personally bad for Bowden was necessarily a competing thought with those of us who were just elated with the unfathomably light results of an NCAA investigation that’s dragged on for months (years? – seriously, how long has it been now!) with the sky-high possibility that the hammer was going to hit hard. I gathered MattD’s point as this: How is it possible for a so-called legislative body to gather all the evidence in the world that FSU failed miserably as an academic institution at the presidential level and then see to it that the only two people, outside of the track team, effectively punished by these penalties are Bobby Bowden and Louis Givens?!
There’s always room for commentary on how collosally stupid the NCAA is.
Maybe the NCAA can't do much to the organization outside the scope of the actual athletic programs?
I dunno.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
Well, technically, the NCAA can't MAKE us do anything...
…so why can’t they say, hey, fire your president! Makes as much sense as anything else that comes out of Indianapolis.
But man, now we really are getting greedy. TK’s humble apology for his role in this mess will be sufficient. (That was a joke.)
I think most here would be against this thing going any further if the sole purpose was to preserve Bowden's wins.
MattD’s one of my favorite posters and contributors here, so I heard him out. I’m sure a lot of us ran the gamut of emotions Friday afternoon. But I assure you he’s no Bowden apologist.
I can’t imagine many rational Nole fans out there would want to invest a whole lot more time and money into this thing after receiving so light a punishment from the NCAA, but then I briefly visit a popular FSU paysite’s messageboard today and that’s all any of the Nole fans posting there seem to care about. Travesty. Worst punishment ever. How could they do this to Bowden?
Six scholarships over three years.
So once again, Bowden’s goals are in direct opposition to Florida State’s goals. I couldn’t care less about the man’s wins record. And I can’t imagine there’s any serious fighting left to be done as I have to believe the concession has already been made – give back the wins and what’s the punishment? At least there exists evidence, for the second time in a month now, that the school has put FSU ahead of Bowden. Now if public sentiment will just shut up.
I think one reason we got lucky and ended up with this punishment is because the NCAA did something we were actually expecting it to do – embarrass TK. What is TK’s one goal, his singular job here at FSU? Protect Bobby’s legacy. And under TK’s watch, Bowden’s legacy has been destroyed. Maybe they’re not so dumb in the ivory towers after all.
All I know is I haven’t taken so much as a step off cloud nine since the penalties came down because finally something has happened at FSU that’s good for the future of our program, and a huge negative has turned into a positive. And as for Bowden, he’s left me high and dry for almost a decade now. It’s about to get real lonely at the top second place.
I don't really care one way or the other to be honest.
Oklahoma had to vacate some wins for violations and they played in the NC game last year.
He was testing a script that allows him to post from a phone.
It worked.
Kill a fly with an axe - Mickey Andrews, his 1998 playbook
Bianchi
Funny someone mentioned this clown. I generally leave him something in the forum discussion after his articles on the line of FSU will be back but you will still be deceitful, dumb, ugly and baldheaded.
Haha. Sortof along the lines of Winston Churchills quote that went something like this:
At a “party” – - – this is a disputed quote—-
Elizabeth Braddock: Mr. Churchill, you are drunk.
Churchill: And you madam, are ugly. As for my condition, it will pass by the morning. You, however, will still be ugly.
Give us a pic of Bianchi, I think its relevent to the conversation at hand.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
From the outside looking in....
these penalties (vacating wins) probably seem harsh, and if it were 1999, they woudl be HARSH.
Fortunately, we’re in a unique situation. Though we don’t want to vacate these wins necessarily, there is a huge upside for FSU because we’re at the end of an era, and maybe even closer (to what many of us want) with the games being vacated.
Under normal circumstances, this would hurt more, but these were 2 of our worse seasons in the past 30 years at a program that needs a change.
Thats one small step for man, one giant leap for people that put a lot of time into sports.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
Did anyone know that the guy who said that line actually messed up?
It was supposed to be… this is one small step for A MAN.. thats why theres an awkward pause during the statement.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
Yes indeed.
Neil Armstrong. When he returned to earth he found out that static messed up the particle “a”, so it wasn’t really Armstrong’s mistake but it was a misquote for one of the most famous events that will ever happen.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
Quick question?
Didn’t the NCAA give those victories back to OU?
The Bowden apologists on Warchant are freaking out...
It’s pretty funny. It’s also funny how media outlets are reporting this like it’s terrible news for FSU and that we didn’t see this coming from miles away. Like Uncensored said, I chalk today up as a W for FSU football.
by Dent Street Nole on Mar 6, 2009 5:38 PM EST reply actions
Just wrapped an interview with the Orlando Sentinel...
let’s see if they include us in their piece tomorrow.
To infinity and beyond...
Kudos to FSUn and all of his tireless work for this site…doesn’t get any better.
We could possibly have the #1 class in the country now.
Can’t wait until the next WORT.
Kill a fly with an axe - Mickey Andrews, his 1998 playbook
Look
I don’t know why you guys think this punishment is a good thing, or that we got off lightly. We got the worst punishment possible in that the only we he leaves FSU now is by the hands of God, literally, meaning he dies while as the Head Coach. If they do strip him off his wins he will come back next year. I do think its time for him to go, but he is not leaving until he gets that all time wins record.
Also, I think its a little ridiculous that NCAA is finally stripping of us of wins after like the 1000th violation. We practically have been a half way house for the past 20 years and they punish in terms of wins for some cheating? Ridiculous. The punishment for our football team is a slap on the wrist and more of a shot at Bobby than anything else. They will never EVER do anything to any of these big programs. The days of post season bans are over much less major scholarship reductions.
This is another reason why I hate the NCAA, when OU and USC are, practically, pro franchises they have the nerve to strip of us wins for something as minor as academic cheating. That last sentence was sarcasm. Its
I’m not happy about stripping us of wins, because that will guarantee Bobby being around for another couple of years.
This is a joke and in terms of affecting the football team completely irrelevant. Its just the NCAA’s way of showing the country they actually do something. Every couple of years they have to deliver punishments in showing the country they are still on top of their game.
"You play to win the game, you don't just play to play" - Herm Edwards
... You're making the wrong assumption
There’s no indication that Bobby would want to STAY because of losing the wins.
Correct..
If he were younger and had been on the verge of leaving for the booth or beach, I would agree that this may lengthen his tenure. Yet, one thing did not get set back with today’s ruling- time. He is running short on time, and fell even further behind an active, albeit old, coach who will likely stay around another year or two.
It’s a sad way for Bowden to leave in that respect, but it does make his exit more certain. It would be nice, though not so likely, if the Bowden would announce before the season and at least have a year-long send-off. He needs to be remembered for the amazing job he did to take a second rate program and turn it into one of the most dominate teams in the nation. We can question what he really brings to the table today, but no one can question the steady leadership he provided for over three decades. Let’s face it, he’s the reason most of us give a damn in the first place.
It stacks everything against Bowden
I’m not one to light the fires and try to drive the man out of town, but the ruling does work against him. The only hope he had of holding the job past Jimbo’s big payday was if he was in a tight race with Paterno. With the win reductions his one leg to stand on for an extension has been cut out from under him. Bowden also has to know that there is no way he can out last Paterno and make up 15 wins. So when the AD comes to Bowden and tells him it is time to step down and let Jimbo take over there is really nothing Bobby can use to make a case for staying.
by osceolafan850 on Mar 6, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
true
It stacks everything against Bowden
I’m not one to light the fires and try to drive the man out of town, but the ruling does work against him. The only hope he had of holding the job past Jimbo’s big payday was if he was in a tight race with Paterno. With the win reductions his one leg to stand on for an extension has been cut out from under him. Bowden also has to know that there is no way he can out last Paterno and make up 15 wins. So when the AD comes to Bowden and tells him it is time to step down and let Jimbo take over there is really nothing Bobby can use to make a case for staying.
First off, PSU alumn and fan here… That being said, there is no way in the world that Bobby Bowden deserves this!! He’s a solid human being and a great football coach. There are alot of people out there that like to hate the Seminoles for some player indescretions during their reign in the 90’s. This isn’t to say that the NCAA is unjustly persecuting FSU for cheating, but I still don’t think that it should result in wins being taken awa from Coach Bowden. Like many other PSU fans I feel those wins while at Samford should not count towards BB’s D-1 total, but that’s a different subject for another day.
Whatever the case, Bobby Bowden deserves better than this!!
He does deserve better..
That said we really did do ok here, many of us waiting for the death penalty(sigh!), with a slight reduction in scholarships, and probation. Assuming the trend in the NCAA to cave on vacating via appeal continues, I dont expect the wins will be lost. This is like going to court for a felony and getting out with time served. This means we have just allayed the fears of potential recruits, perhaps removing the one reason other coaches recruiting against us would offer to them for not coming here. Imo, I think Bowden does want the record badly enough to stay on( not trying to ruffle feathers here), I mean he only has to outlast Paterno by a little more than a year, even with vacations. Then again, there are probably 5 million reasons why it wont happen…
Tired of hearing about what Bobby "deseves".
No one is saying he was directly responsible for these violations. But who cares whether he “deserves” to have these wins stripped?
FSU didn’t “deserve” to have its name dragged through the mud nationally over the last decade and a half every time Bobby’s lack of discipline came back to bite us in the rear.
FSU didn’t “deserve” to have nepotism forced upon it and then have to watch its football program decay to the point there were more visitors in the stands than supporters.
FSU doesn’t “deserve” to have tBobby’s old buddies on staff now who underperform, cause dssention, and continue to hold the program back.
Bobby Bowden didn’t “deserve” the roughly $20 MILLION he was paid over the last 8 years for this mess, nor will he “deserve” the $5 MILLION more he’ll get paid to close out this decade.
He doesn’t “deserve” to hang on until he feels like telling his buddies he wants to pursue another hobby.
And anyone who thinks Bobby was just hanging around for the overall record is missing the point..
(And btw, no, TK and RS, you can’t pretend “the university didn’t know and wasn’t involved and didn’t intentionally play cheaters,” etc. That just won’t fly with the NCAA. It was the universtiy’s course and the the university’s employee, so it was the university).
by FiestaNole on Mar 7, 2009 8:55 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
Excellent post
FSU didn’t "deserve" to have nepotism forced upon it and then have to watch its football program decay to the point there were more visitors in the stands than supporters.
Bobby Bowden didn’t "deserve" the roughly $20 MILLION he was paid over the last 8 years for this mess, nor will he "deserve" the $5 MILLION more he’ll get paid to close out this decade.
I'm no Bowden apologist, but I think your points are offbase
1. Having your name dragged through the mud is part of playing major college football. Good public affairs management is the best mitigation strategy. This has little to do with the man in charge. Give me any other coach and the results in this regard are similar.
2. Jeff Bowden was definitely a mistake, but fans on this site routinely credit the performance of athletes in another sport to the son of a coach: Meat. Let’s face it, had Jeff Bowden turned in a Norm Chow-type offensive coordinator, the n-word would never come up. I don’t agree with it, because I think it makes situations difficult when the subordinate either has issues or just doesn’t perform. Either way, we should all be demanding 11 fire Meat if we’re that upset about Jeff. Winning does change our perspective and opinion.
3. As for Bowden’s compensation, I find no fault with him for securing the best deal possible.
The point is, much of the problems with FSU athletics have arisen from FSU admin. Yet, this punishment let’s them ride free, while Bowden takes it on the chin. This is like sentencing a terminally ill patient to death. He was already leaving, so the impact is minimal on the institution. The impact is only on his person. The NCAA did FSU a favor and dumped the majority of penalty squarely on Bowden.
Yes, it’s time for Bowden to retire. But why would we want the face of our institution for years to come (regardless of his replacement) to go down in disgrace?
Actually, I don't think the NCAA took this far enough
I think this academic cheating is a black-eye for the public school system of the entire state of Florida. As such, I feel all victories by any NCAA public school in Florida should be vacated for the duration.
wow..ESPN just gave us some respect finally...
called us one of the nation’s top programs at the beginning of sportscenter.
Bianchi
The Sentinel mentions FSU as rarely as possible. It is usually a one inch article. Yes I live down here in the big O with Bianchi. I poured the morning coffee and noticed Bianchi was handling the diatribe this morning.
The article did mention Tomahawk Nation. FSU got all of two pages on this one. A jab that stood out by chrome dome was that Bobby did not know what his players were doing in the classroom as he hardly knew what they were doing on the football field. Vintage Bianchi.
If I am not mistaken about a year ago I read somewhere that T. K. ordered Hart to put the academic tutoring under the university and not the athletic department. That seems to be where the problem began. You can bet UF does not have any regular students mixed up with their cheating. It is the best way to turn semi-literates like Chris Rainey and Ronnie Wilson into almost academic All Americans.
All in all it looks like the NCAA in their own way got even for FSU keeping the logo.
I can live with it however and looking forward to at least a ten win season this year.
I don’t have any pics of Bianchi but better not put any pics on this article as lots of people will be trying to download the information here like censored says.
Rumor only, of course...
If I am not mistaken about a year ago I read somewhere that T. K. ordered Hart to put the academic tutoring under the university and not the athletic department. That seems to be where the problem began. You can bet UF does not have any regular students mixed up with their cheating. It is the best way to turn semi-literates like Chris Rainey and Ronnie Wilson into almost academic All Americans.
Again, this is only what i have heard and I am not reporting it as fact:
TK wanted Hart out. He wanted more credit for the success of athletics, and Dave Hart was well respected by most. TK wanted dirt on Hart to get him out. When they found the one kid cheating, they should have just reported it, and been done with it. Instead, TK’s investigation was already underway and was too large to be covered up. TK’s disdain for Dave Hart is what got us into this mess. His attempt to bribe the NCAA and his sexist actions in dealing with the woman in charge of the investigation worsened our fate.
Wow
Our University is pretty much incompetent. If that rumor is true.
Thats why I believe being an Academic All-American is pretty much worthless. First the players take the easiest classes and have the easiest majors possible, i.e. Family, Youth and Community Services (Tebow’s Major) and they get around the clock tutoring that the average college student can’t even dream of. The tutoring that these guys get is unbelievable and if you don’t get become an Academic All-American you are an idiot.
You are giving Chris Rainey and Ronnie Wilson too much credit as being semi-literates.
"You play to win the game, you don't just play to play" - Herm Edwards
DAVE HART, CAN GO TO BED NOW
stop working overtime to make urself look sqeaky clean since u gave Bowden free reign
Bowden is corrupt, Hart, and Sandy also
TK definitely changed things, but Hart was still on the watch
Im not a lawer and kinda need help understanding something
The students took an on-line music course and cheated, I get that.
The NCAA issued its sanctions today for violations that occurred in connection with an online course in the fall semester of 2006, the spring semester of 2007, and the summer of 2007.
So if football players took the course in the spring and track and baseball took it in the fall then wouldnt they only be eligible for there sports. I know that they prob took the on-lince course duing there seasons because those are eazy classed to get good grades and wouldnt have to focuse to much on school work. Or are they out for the full year and not just during the time they were in those classes.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
I don't know what to think about the NCAA
Two school, FSU and Bama have committed what seems to me as minor infractions. ANd are already being punished or soon to be punished by the NCAA. FSU’s seems a little heavier than UA’s but thats not the point. USC on the other hand committed a HUGE infraction with the whole Reggie Bush saga and hasn’t receieved anything yet! What’s the deal there? Are they just out for southern schools? Don’t get me wrong, FSU should get penalized for what happened but why is it taking so long for the NCAA to rule on USC when there is plenty of evidence?
Players cheating on test/ players selling books for cash happens at every university. Boosters paying players parents and given freakin sweet places to live while doing nothing for it doesn’t….The NCAA needs to be fair across the board or do nothing at all..
I have a small place in my heart for FSU ( i did go there) so i kinda hate to see this happen but it was going to happen at some point…The thing about FSU giving up its wins is only fair. UA, UM and many other schools had to do it so FSU should to. It just sucks that it pretty much takes away any chance for Bobby to catch Joe Pa..
When you are an Alabama fan you are expected to hate Auburn, I hate Tennessee because I want to.
Well that's not the type of news I was hoping for tonight.
But tell me, genron. What about this affects LJ? What part of it makes any bit of difference to his future?
He’s still got his scholarship. Florida State is not missing any future games, no tv or bowl game restrictions.
Unless I’m mistaken, the goal of an athlete of LJ’s caliber is to have an enjoyable and worthwhile experience at college for 3 years, prepare for the league, and succeed in the NFL. How was LJ able to consider Florida State as a place he could do all of those things on Thursday, but not now on Sunday?
I actually am asking, not being sarcastic or anything if it came off that way.
By the way...
I am just asking because I’d like to know. Obviously I’m here because I am a Florida State fan, and most of the other commenters here are Florida State fans. We’d of course have our own view of the results of this week. I just want to see how someone who’s not necessarily a fan but is involved in the recruiting process sees what’s going on around here.
Too much program disfunction
FSU football program looks very unorganized from the outside looking in. I see players constantly in trouble with many repeat offenders. That tells me either the punishment is too soft and players dont fear it or the players just lack respect for the program, their coaches, and obviously themselves. There is no character buliding or peer mentor groups that the teams establishes. And I know that for a fact. coaches dont focus on that either. I dont want my kid to go to a school like that. Especially when there are programs that are better in that area he can attend. Now FSU is on probation and loses 10 scholarships from NCAA plus the 5 self imposed ones, thats 15….they lose almost an entire class. Thats big. But that should matter b/c i personally feel FSU wastes talent. FSU gets the best in Fla every year.Too many players either dont perform to their hype, quit the team, or get kicked for academic reasons/team discipline/local crimes. I have a inside source that works on the team staff thats telling me dont send him there. And on top of that, my man Bobby Bowden is leaving and Mickey Andrews….like I mention to LJ, its not the FSU that you grew up with.
Whoa genron...
I cannot, nor will I, try to argue with anything you have said as we will probably have different opinions…. with one exception.
Florida State only lost 6 scholarships total. That’s it. The NCAA took away 1 extra scholarship from what Florida State already had. Not 15. Your feelings are your feelings, but we aren’t losing anywhere near the number of players as you currently believe.
i stand corrected
I thought it said 10 over three years for football
Again... that's all I want to argue with you about.
What’s sad is that much of the rest of what you have to say about the program has been right about Florida State in the past. I cannot tell you for certain that it is different now. I think it is, but I don’t know. Keep in mind that all of this stuff happened before Jimbo was hired, and especially before he was named as Bobby’s successor.
It’s not the FSU that LJ grew up with, but it might still be a good FSU. I would encourage you to reconsider your position on dropping Florida State.
The most important thing regardless of whether LJ decides to look elsewhere or not, is that we’d love for you to continue to contribute to our site. Throughout the process and throughout his career, it’s great to get insight from the other side of the ball, so to speak.
You’re able to let us know how things are going from an athlete’s perspective, not that of a fan.
The last thing we want to allow to happen to this site is that we all start thinking and reacting the same way. If we all started following the same tune around here, we would decend into the worst of what the paysites have to offer (Note: I also think they offer plenty of good).
Discussions with you have kept us grounded, and kept us from wearing Garnet and Gold colored glasses during the recruiting process.
lol
Dang Matt….I find myself agreeing with you. Bringing me to focus and getting my mind off the hostile fans who i let bother me. Trying to figure how a FSU fan dislikes Bobby Bowden is besides me. To me this recruiting process is not about the school physical location or its buildings and past. Its about people and relationships. I feel good about Bobby and Mickey but from what Ive read and heard from here not many people up there like him. Im thinking the players feel the same way. Fisher, Cooley, Amato, and buckley Im not so sure about. They have had a huge hand in the program for the last 2 years and things seemed to get worst. I put a ton of blame on them b/c i know how much responsiblilty was given them. And they folded. No players is scared of either of those guys…thats a problem
I can only speak for myself when I say
that I love Bobby Bowden. I always will. The fact is though, I love Florida State more. I went to college there, I grew up there, became a man there. I am fully aware there is no program without Bobby Bowden. I am also aware that he should not have done some of the things he has done.
Genron, I appreciate you sharing your feelings, because as Matt said, it helps us as fans look at a different angle. It also helps me personally try to adjust my paradigm when evaluating what is in “the best interest” of the program. That said, as in anything people do in any sort of organization, people become aware when change needs to be made. Whether the change happens or not depends completely on what an organization considers to be more important. For example, for the life of me, I can not remember the last time a staunch defender of Bobby said he should stay because he was the best man for the job. It is always deferring to it being his right. I can’t get angry with people because I have felt that way. He built it, he can tear it down. I realized I care more about the finished project then the engineer. So yea, I think most, if not all still love Bobby.
Finally, maybe being a homer here, but I think the program is on its way up. You will do what is best for your family, and that is all anyone should expect. My advice, dont dismiss us, because it is not in your best interest. FSU is the greatest place on earth, and the football isnt bad either.
I think it’s important to separate Fisher, Coley, and Buckley from Amato. Some have described Amato as a cancer. The first three, however, have been a breath of fresh air. The program has improved in the last two years. the real down period was 2004-2006.
Why do players not fear those coaches? Because they know Bowden won’t do anything. He’s out of touch. Those coaches don’t have the power.
Once Bobby leaves? Those coaches will have the power.
I'll be as straight up with you as I can...
Florida State fans resent Bobby Bowden for allowing his son to ruin our program.
Plain and simple, that’s how it is.
Jeff Bowden set Florida State football back 5 years with his inability to effectively coach football and have a good gameplan. Bobby was loyal to a fault in this case, threatened anyone who thought his son wasn’t doing a good job, and refused to go in another direction.
That is beautiful for a father. I hope every father would do that for his son. It’s not, however, the best working environment. Florida State fans remember that and blame Bobby for the shortcomings of the program lately.
I don’t know what Fisher, Dawsey, Coley, Trickett, and Buckley are like (Amato is a clown as you already know). I think they will be stronger and they have just had to deal with the bad leftovers since they’ve gotten here, but I don’t know. I’m willing to give them a chance to get their system in place though. Until it is really their necks on the line, I don’t know if we know how they will react.
I'm very optimistic that the coaches you named will turn things around
once Fisher has the power to set that expectation.
2010 can’t get here soon enough. I just hope we can get through this season and continue to build without any major gaffs, player arrests, other drama.
Jimbo's offense
OK you all love Jimbo Fisher. For the last 2 years his offense has been very very average. He has had full control of recruiting personal and offensive philosophy. He was and is the change….where’s the change? Players have not developed well lately. Thats a fact….and thats with Jombo and his guys
Are you aware of how long it takes for change to surface?
And he is handicapped by the fact that he is not the head coach. We can talk until we are blue in the face about the future, but currently Bobby is still THE man.
As I said earlier, I think you make excellent contributions, but IMO, that last statement is absurd.
full
of it. You telling me you cant see change in two years…. We’ve seen change in one year or less in other cases. And Jimbo has had a ton power. Jimbo fisher better than Bowden????
If it wasn’t for Miami having some of the best teams of all time Bobby would have atleast 2 more championships and with chances of 3 others. Jimbo is part of wasting talent. And yes he did recruit Surrency (i think thats the WR name)
I will respectfully disagree.
You might want to reread my statement before you comment.
First of all, this is not a cumulative analysis. Is Jimbo better then Bobby right now? Aside from the fact that Jimbo has never been a head coach before, there is a bit of skewing to the data.
Is he a harder worker? Yes, if you cant see that, you are blind.
Is he a better coach RIGHT NOW? that is where opinion enters the conversation. That said, if you think it is a slam dunk, then it is you that is “full of it.” Bobby used to be a GREAT coach. Right now though, who thinks he really immerses himself?
I wont argue history here, that is missing the issue. Currently though, look at our offense last year, and the years before Jimbo got here. If you cant see change, then again, you are “full of it.”
As it was stated by FSUn and someone else, the attrition takes time. He does not have all Jimbo guys in there, and as HCIW, there are still limits to his ultimate authority. Case in point, the three headed beast that is associate head coaches since CTC thinks he has pull. When there is dissension, there is turmoil. Once he takes the reins, that goes away. Does it get us a national title? I am not a future teller.
So if you want to discuss the actual issue, you let me know. If you want a history lesson, there are others around here who can provide you a much better education on FSU football.
Do you sincerely believe that at his age
he can sustain the workload that Jimbo does?
Come on man, lets get real. Either you want to articulate something, or you don’t.
The point, Miami, is that we don't know.
We have no idea what Jimbo Fisher will do or be as a head coach. We have our opinions. Florida fans have theirs. Miami fans have theirs. LSU fans have theirs. No one knows.
All a recruit can do is talk to Fisher himself and find out what his plan is. If you like what he’s selling, then buy it. If you don’t, then don’t.
Let Jimbo Fisher speak for himself. If he wants an athlete the caliber of LJ then he will find a way to convey his message to Lamarcus.
Exactly.
Noone here is predicting the future, but it kills me when someone tries to tell the future by looking at the past when circumstances have changed.
My dad used to beat me all the time at chess when i was 7. That does not mean he will be able to beat me now.
to me
the message as to be conveyed to me as well. You can try to go around me but every school that does that gets crossed out.
I'm sure he meant that.
Have you crossed somebody out for going around you yet?
What do you think about schools lying to recruits about the FSU sanctions? We just found out Clemson was lying and saying FSU can’t play in Bowl games or on TV, which is obviously false when reading the report.
by Bud Elliott on Mar 10, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
take no bull
I dont respect schools that dog others while hyping themselves up. As soon as I get something like that I turn it around and scrutinize them about the same things. Only 2nd- tier schools have gone that far though. And yeah some school have gotten crossed and FSU is on the verge. Im trying to tell em, that last minute recruiting push is not going to work.
He was named offensive coordinator of the year.
Had the top rated offense in the ACC.
ACCSports.com: Jimbo Fisher named ACC offensive coordinator of the year
FSU led the ACC in scoring offense with 32.7 points per game, as Fisher — now in his second year in Tallahassee — began to see the fruits of his labor. The Seminoles scored 30 or more points in wins over Colorado, Miami, Virginia Tech, Clemson and Maryland, as Fisher pulled strong performances out of first-year starting quarterback Christian Ponder, senior tailback Antone Smith and an offensive line that consisted entirely of freshmen and sophomores.
He cut out punts in HALF once he got his guys playing there. In half Gen.
In 2007, with none of his own players, Fisher’s offense punted 76 times (53 in ACC play). last year, the first year he has his own guys, the offense punted only 41 times (25 in ACC Play).
He did that with the youngest offensive line in America and a sophomore quarterback.
The ’Noles played the 2nd best schedule in the Nation. The ACC has the best defenses by far. They put more defensive players in the NFL over the last 5 years than every other conference, including the “mighty” SEC.
I wrote this back on December 1st:
FEI. This is the most advanced method of performance evaluation available to the general public. If you are new here, follow the links in the pasted text for a better explanation.
The Fremeau Efficiency Index principles and methodology can be found here. FEI rewards playing well against good teams, win or lose, and punishes losing to poor teams more harshly than it rewards defeating poor teams. games against I-AA or DII competition are not included or graded. It is drive-based, not play-by-play based, and it is specifically engineered to measure the college game.
FEI is the opponent-adjusted value of Game Efficiency, a measurement of the success rate of a team scoring and preventing opponent scoring throughout the non-garbage-time possessions of a game. Like DVOA, it represents a team’s efficiency value over average. Strength of Schedule is calculated from a privileged perspective (explained here) and represents the likelihood that an Elite team (top 5) would post an undefeated record against the given team’s opponents to date.
So, in keeping with the “before the UF game” theme, let’s see where we ranked.
* In 2007, the Noles entered the UF game ranked 24th, with an FEI of 0.139
* In 2008, the Noles entered the UF game ranked 9th, with an FEI of .221
Since this metric is opponent adjusted and goes deeper than any other available, it’s an excellent measure of a team’s ability. the Noles improved by almost 60% (58.99%)!
Overall, the Noles are a much better team in 2008 than 2007. Where did this improvement come from? Again, we can turn to FEI.
Adjusted Offensive Efficiency and Adjusted Defensive Efficiency are the opponent-adjusted values of Offensive Efficiency and Defensive Efficiency, explained here. Like FEI, the multiple-order adjustments are weighted according to both the strength of the opponent and the relative significance of the result; efficiency against a team’s best competition faced is given more relevance weight. AOE and ADE represent a team’s value over/under average. Positive AOE and negative ADE are the most valuable.
Offense
* In 2007, FSU entered the UF game with the 76th best Adjusted Offensive Efficiency (AOE)
* In 2008, FSU entered the UF game with the 21st best Adjusted Offensive Efficiency (AOE)
That’s a pretty incredible jump. To go from 76th to 21st is very good. It’s even more impressive considering the offensive personnel. These numbers indicate that the holdover players from the Nepotism era were pretty poor. Consider that Florida State started the youngest offensive line in the country.
NOTE: remember that FEI automatically adjusts for rules changes because it measures performance on drives, as opposed to only games. It also doesn’t count non-competitive drives (drives where the game is locked up, for instance a drive when a team leads by 40 in the 4th quarter). This explains why FSU got little credit for crushing UAB and DUKE in the 2007 ratings. FSU received zero credit for their wins against the I-AA competition in 2008.
We can dig deeper still, but we need to consider a few things as well. First, the following numbers are not opponent adjusted. This is raw data. Second, the 2007 data includes a game against Duke (goes hand in hand with the lack of opponent adjustment). Third, the clock rules changed this year, giving offenses about 12 less plays per game (about 17% less opportunities).
* In 2007, the Noles averaged 5.2 yards per play in ACC play (including Duke). Excluding Duke (because Duke was a major outlier last year, playing far below conference standards), the Noles averaged 5.02 yards per play.
* In 2008, the Noles averaged 5.12 yards per play in ACC competition. There are no horrible teams to exclude from this data.
* In 2007, the Noles averaged at least 4.85 yards per play 57% of the time, in ACC competition. In 2008, the Noles averaged at least 4.85 yards per play 88% of the time (7 of 8 games).
Hmm, that doesn’t seem like much of an improvement, but it is some improvement. The advanced data says we got better. What could be at work here? First, tougher competition, much tougher. Second, the Noles often threw underneath on 3rd and long in 2007, picking up yards, but failing to convert. Those 7 yard completions look good in the scorer’s book but don’t offer much to help the team. In 2008, the Noles picked up 1st downs much better, because they took risks, but they also failed on occasion and those failures hurt the total.
What about offensive points per play? Remember that First, these are not opponent adjusted. This is raw data. Second, the 2007 data includes a game against Duke (goes hand in hand with the lack of opponent adjustment).
* In 2007, the Noles scored .29 offensive points per play in ACC competition. remove Duke and that number doesn’t fall much.
* In 2008, The Noles scored .39 offensive points per play in ACC competition.
The Noles offense scored 39% more offensive points per play in 2008 than they did in 2007!! This is even more remarkable considering the step-up in competition the Noles faced in 2008. This is a big reason why the Noles offense was much better in 2008. They were much more efficient. The Noles actually attempted to get 1st downs in 2008, and they did not settle for field goals.
Additional Note: The Nole offense scored 33% more points per ACC game in 2008 than they did in 2007 (26 ppACCg in 2008 and 20 in 2007)
That FEI measurement is what NFL teams are using when they figure out who to pay. It’s a much better measure than just points or yards.
Oh, last thing: all offensive numbers were down in college football lats year because of the changes to the clock rules (teams ran 16% fewer plays).
by Bud Elliott on Mar 9, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks FSUn
that is a little more in depth, but exactly what I said. But only a little haha.
Improvement?
There was a rather lengthy article on this very site about that very question (replete with facts and stats, in typical FSUncensored fashion). Suffice it to say, I don’t think you realize just how bare the cupboard was when Jimbo and his staff got here, or how much the offense has changed.
He was named offensive coordinator of the year.
Had the top rated offense in the ACC.
ACCSports.com: Jimbo Fisher named ACC offensive coordinator of the year
FSU led the ACC in scoring offense with 32.7 points per game, as Fisher — now in his second year in Tallahassee — began to see the fruits of his labor. The Seminoles scored 30 or more points in wins over Colorado, Miami, Virginia Tech, Clemson and Maryland, as Fisher pulled strong performances out of first-year starting quarterback Christian Ponder, senior tailback Antone Smith and an offensive line that consisted entirely of freshmen and sophomores.
He did that with the youngest offensive line in America and a sophomore quarterback.
with all due respect
FSU loses 10 scholarships TOTAL (in ALL sports) over 3 years. The football program only loses 6. The 5 that we self-imposed don’t “add”, they subtract. FSU football will take a Full class next year.
Can't diasgree with you about the dysfinction and lack of discipline,
But get this straight: “your man” Bobby Bowden is directly responsible for creating that atmosphere. Unitl he goes, that won’t change because those will change it won’t be in charge until then. That will occur in 2010.
If you hate Bobby so much how in the hell are you a fan. He bulit that program. And he didnt start that cheating atmosphere, thats on the academic support staff and assistant coaches who knows these kids moves in and out.
None of the coaches are responsible for cheating
I think Georgia’s point was the discipline (or lack-there-of) has detoriated over the years. We all know Bobby has never had very harsh or strict penalties on players. We (I think I can speak for the majority) believe that Jimbo and co. can bring a change to FSU. One of those main changes is discipline.
None of what we say is “hate” towards Bobby. We all love BB. He built the program that was so dominate for so many years. But we also can see what is happening.
Change is coming. That change is for the better. And that change includes discipline…under Jimbo Fisher.
It is sad that Bobby can not exert as much influence as he used to.
Most here would argue that they are Florida State fans first… many of them went to school there and would be fans even if there were no football team…. and Bobby Bowden fans second.
I agree that he had little to do with what the players do on a daily basis and he does not deserve a lot of the criticism he receives nor the sanctions that have been imposed.
The academic support staff directly responsible for what happened has been let go: both the director and individual tutors. The only assistant coaches that remain from this time period are Jody Allen, Mickey, and Odell.
If you look at all of our recent arrests, only two have come for players that were recruited and signed by the current staff: Bert Reed and Corey Surrency. Only one of the players recruited by this staff has been "kicked off" the team, and that decision was somewhat mutual with Brandon Paul.
Yes, we’ve had a lot of players leave the program in less than attractive ways recently. But I think a case can be made that these were bad apples from a previous generation and that the new leaders (Bobby is included on this list, but he is now delegating much of the responsibility to Jimbo) have a renewed focus in player discipline.
You know we suspended 3 guys for a game apiece last year for missing class? I think going to class is important, but everybody misses one or two per semester. We suspended guys for it. Check how many other universities do that.
It’s not enough to say "well everybody else does it" and assume that we’re off the hook. I know that. We should be better because we are the freaking Florida State Seminoles. In the past we have not lived up to what our standards should be. I think we’re working to change that and get to where we need to be both on the field and off.
What is it with "fans" like you?
Do you only have an on/off switch, it’s either “love” or “hate” a coach? How about just being honest and objective, seeing the good and the bad? BB is no saint, never was. A charming man to be sure, but he’s made some fundamental mistakes with this program which we can no longer afford. I don’t choose to be blind. I’m a fan of FSU, my alma mater, and that comes first in my analysis. As I clearly wrote, he’s not directly responsible for the cheating. But your post went well beyond that, to the general lack of discipline in the program, and that’s what I addressed. Until we admit where that comes from, it won’t be fixed, except by accident.
That is a misguided opinion
"your man" Bobby Bowden is directly responsible for creating that atmosphere.
Can you explain what Coach Bowden does and has done in the past to create an atmosphere that encourages cheating among student athletes?
I think any coach, well good coach for that matter, creates an atmosphere that promotes winning. Winning is priority among the players, the staff, the support staff, the campus, and the fans. This means you solicit more financial support; recruit the strongest, fastest players; invest in the best training equipment; build monuments, museums, and sod cemetaries; buy the best film equipment; hire the best trainers and physical therapists; have dietitians prescribing meals for players. You, thereby, have encouraged everyone around you that has a vested interest in the team winning, to seek every advantage possible. You could conclude, though, that by creating an atmosphere of winning, that you indirectly encourage cheating.
You could say this about every successful division one coach and be accurate. This is not unique to Florida State or Bobby Bowden. I think your argument is flawed because it’s premise is inherent to successful football.
I think it is the coach’s job to create the winning atmosphere, encourage it, foster it, and help it thrive. It is the administration’s responsibility to understand that it can become a slippery slope in such environments and to mitigate folks crossing the line.
Winning at any cost is OK then?
How about accountability? How about knowing you’ll suffer more than some stadium steps if you get caught doing weed or get arrested twice, before you hit the magical “3 strikes”? The CEO sets expectations in real life. Bobby’s policies have hurt FSU in the public’s and the NCAA’s view. We have to deal with it.
I'm not talking about getting caught once.
This issue is that players seem to know that multiple misdemeanor violations are acceptable, or at least bear little consequence form Bobby.
right on
You should want your kid to go to a program where if he violates a rule he’s punished to a point where he doesn’t want to do it again. I’m watching the Champs Bowl game and i see a couple of players who have been suspened twice during the year starting or getting most of the playing time. As a former player, to me that sends a message that i can get away with a lot stuff and still play.
Two of those players were wrongfully suspended and the University said they would change the policy,
because it was unfair.
The way they calculated missed class and translated that into a suspension was incorrect. They apologized.
To sum up all of my long-winded posts and ramblings.
I guess I would just ask that you talk to the coaches involved before ruling out FSU.
I’m going to tell you something that probably no other internet fan will: My school might not be the place for LJ. I can’t say for sure. Like you say, it’s all about relationships and people.
I don’t know who is recruiting LJ for our staff, but I would encourage you to try to talk with Fisher, Coley, Trickett, and Dawsey. These are the guys Jimbo has hired to be on the offensive staff. These are the types of guys Fisher will hire on defense when he takes over. Amato is gone the day Bobby and Mickey retire or soon after. He is not the type of coach we will continue to associate with. Ask Jimbo face to face where he wants this program to be. If you like what they have to say, great. If not, that’s great too.
I readily admit that internet fans, of which I am one, can be some of the dumbest homers out there. I’d only ask that you visit FSU sometime in the coming months and find out about FSU for yourself and not let such an important decision for LJ’s future be decided by some freaking idiots posting on your youtube page.
Most of the members of this site will still root for the kid even if he goes elsewhere. Well, as long as he’s not directing competing against our Noles. Then we’ll hope he has 3 INTs but the Seminoles win the game.
Yes sir
Mad respect Matt. Dude, love the response and just b/c of you….just b/c on you..FSU will recieve a visit or two. But they better have their sh*t together. I want to know how they are going to progress guys off the field. What services are being devoted to character buliding, spiritually, and mental well-being. All that matters, not just playing on the field and lifting weights. I know now getting into FSU why Myron Rolle stay away from teammates off the field and went his own path.
Man, you'll be asking the right questions.
Sounds like you’re a good dad with that. I’ve have a 19 and a 17 year old, and I’d want to know the same things. It would be a HUGE if you could post some of what you hear about thoe matters. Great questions.
Genron, the sanctions will have ZERO effect on LJ. Shouldn't have any effect on his decision.
UF has been on probation, as Miami has. They both recovered, and look at UF now.
Kill a fly with an axe - Mickey Andrews, his 1998 playbook

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