Déjà vu: Florida State's offense shreds the defense again
by Bud Elliott on Apr 2, 2009 4:05 AM EDT
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PrintDespite some bad weather, FSU did scrimmage yesterday. If you ask Florida State defensive coordinator Mickey Andrews, however, he'd probably tell you that he wishes it would have kept raining.
18 plays: 245 yards. That's what the first team offense put on the first team defense during Wednesday's half scrimmage. Extrapolated over an entire game's worth of snaps, that's almost 900 yards (890.1).
Offensive Coordinator Jimbo Fisher's crew took it to Andrew's boys again Wednesday, running mostly shotgun and one-back formations. This is the second consecutive scrimmage in which the offense has dismantled the defense. On Monday, the offense ran a lot of spread formations (which our defense can't handle... charts inside as a reminder), for over 15 yards per play. That followed a Saturday scrimmage in which the defense did have some success, albeit against pro formations (something the defense handles well).
If Jimbo is trying to show everyone that Andrews and his defensive staff have no clue against anything other than a pro style attack, he's doing one heck of a job.
Inside I discuss what happened and also take a look at some of Mickey's less than inspiring quotes.
You'll remember from our Size Matters Article (a must read) that Mickey Andrews defense is crippled by Non-Pro Style attacks, particularly those with mobile quarterbacks with spread or option elements.
| Total Off. | Rushing | Passing | ||||||||||||||
| Opponent | PPG | Plays | Yds | Per Play | No | Net | YPC | TFL's | Att | Comp | Yds | TD | Int | Sacks | Dropbacks/ Sacks | QB Rating |
| Against Pro-Style | 19 | 65 | 270 | 4.1 | 31 | 83 | 2.6 | 10 | 34 | 17 | 187 | 1.2 | 1.2 | 4.3 | 8.8 | 100 |
| Against Non- Prostyle |
28 | 60 | 385 | 6.4 | 39 | 235 | 6.0 | 7 | 20 | 11 | 151 | 1.5 | 0.5 | 0.8 | 28 | 138 |
From FSU Sports Information and Seminoles.com (1st team stuff only):
FROM THE -1: 2 Plays, ~83 yards
- The offense got off to a quick start in the shadow of their goal line. The first play went for nine yards as Christian Ponder connected with Jarmon Fortson. Jermaine Thomas then once again turned in a big run as he went 80+ yards.
FROM THE -35: 6 plays, ~81 yards
- Kevin McNeil began the set with a four-yard sack.
- Ponder hit Louis Givens for a short gain
- then Ponder had a long run after being forced to scramble when McNeil chased him out of the pocket.
- After re-setting the ball Korey Mangum had a tackle for loss on a pitch
- Incomplete pass (drop)
- The offense turned in another big play on the next snap though as Ponder went to Rod Owens for a 71-yard TD as the receiver leaped over the DB (Jenijie) to pull in the pass.
FROM THE 50: 3 plays, ~32 yards
- Ponder flared a pass out to Thomas for 12 yards
- Another first on a Ponder pass to Bert Reed who fumbled the ball and Moses McCray fell on it.
- On third-and-six Ponder found Owens for seven yards and a first down.
FROM THE +20: 4 plays, 41 yards
- Nigel Carr brought down Ponder behind the line on a broken play that turned into a run
- Markus White got in Ponder’s face and forced a quick throw that almost resulted in an interception.
- On 3rd-and-6 from the 26 Ponder got the ones back into the endzone when he hit Louis Givens in the front of the endzone for six.
- On the next play the ball was put back on the 20 and Marcus Sims went 20 yards up the middle for another TD. (Untouched)
FROM THE +12: 3 plays, 8 yards
- The defense did not allow the offense to get in from the 12 as they sent the ones out in three plays after they started with an eight yard completion from Ponder to Thomas.
- Thomas was stuck by Maurice Harris and then
- Jamie Robinson tackled Reed for no gain.
GOAL LINE
- Kendall Smith tackled Marcus Sims behind the line from the three and then
- Ponder found Caz Piurowski for a TD from the one.
-
The 1st team offense ran 18 plays for 245 yards! That is the 2nd consecutive scrimmage that Mickey Andrews defense has been absolutely thumped. 14 yards per play??
- The above numbers don't count Goal-Line, since obviously the maximum yards possible is three or less.
- I spoke with some folks and they said that Ponder was sensational, driving the ball downfield and showing good touch. By my count, Ponder was 6-9 for 105(ish) yards and 1 TD, no interceptions. Depending on who you talk to, he was the victim of either 2 or 3 drops. One of the drops was by Commack after Commack made a great double move on a deap ball and Ponder put the ball on the money. I have to say that I am encouraged by Ponder's accuracy to date. The ball to Rod Owens (70+ yard TD) was a deep go as well.
- The backs finally decided to block and the protection was much better. This included fullback Sedrick Holloway, who has put in the effort and lost some weight. (long time readers will remember that he was pretty beefy before spring ball).
- Jermaine Thomas got almost all of the first team snaps today.
- Much like Clemson did in 2006 and 2007, Jimbo made Andrew's defense look undisciplined, uneducated, and poorly coached by using fake reverse action (with Reed and Givens, though it may have been Commack and not Givens... can't remember). Predictably, the Seminoles defense was completely off balance. They overpursued because they are not big enough to fight through blockers, and were pinned as the backs raced by them.
- Kudos to Rod Owens. We definitely need him with the loss of Parker and Easterling.
- As we discussed Monday, guard Will Furlong is likely off the team. It's a good thing. He didn't have a future here. No official word yet, but Andrew Carter has more on a story that looks like it originated from our friend Jamey Givens at NoleInsider.com He was not going to be a starter.
On the vertical passing game: "It was something we lacked a little bit last year. Things are starting to click and its opening up. It’s just gonna open up the shorter things. It’s something we need and something we’re definitely improving upon." That's encouraging. It's a dimension that must be there in 2009. It should be open because of our powerful running attack. On the progress they have made this spring: "We’ve made a lot of progress. I think there’s still a few things we need to go over and fix but so far its pretty good. It’s been showing up a lot lately. Last scrimmage we had a couple of deep balls. The biggest thing for us right now is the O-Line is giving me ton of time so that has really opened things up. Receivers are learning the smaller details that open up the reads and make it easy to read. It’s definitely come along, a little more to improve but it’s definitely a lot further along then it was before."
It's nice to see Christian stand in the Pocket and deliver. The point he makes about the OLine is huge. The wideouts comment is also important, as Fisher isn't babying these kids apparently.
Mickey Andrews is refusing to shoulder any blame and is acting like Jeff Bowden.
As Jimbo repeatedly makes Andrews look foolish, Mickey is getting more and more defensive while increasingly blaming his players. Good coaches don't do this. They shoulder the blame themselves. They don't take it out on the media.
Andrew Carter and Steve Ellis caught up with Mickey... and his answers were disheartening.
We have too many people that won't win their gap. … We ain't learned to fight hard enough on defense yet."
I am so sick and tired of Andrews excuses
Mickey's solution to every problem seems to be intensity. In fact, Intensity might be the 'Noles problem-- too much of it, that is.
Some will make the excuse that the defense is missing starters. I disagree with this as an excuse. The only actual missing starter is Dekoda Watson. Budd Thacker is terrible at defensive tackle and it's laughable that our coaches cite him as a starter in an effort to deflect blame from themselves.
Instead of intensity, the defense needs some coaches who have had a new idea in the last 10 years. The players have no idea what to do out on the field. Maybe they will employ some intelsly confused looks?
On second thought, maybe the 'Noles defense does need intensity... from its coaches. Did Mickey and Chuck visit other schools this offseason to share (and take home) ideas about defending something other than a pro-style attack? I didn't think so. Where is the commitment from Andrews, Amato, and Allen? If Andrews and Amato really cared, they would have been out visiting other schools and learning. Instead, they have come full circle, from once despising Jeff Bowden's antics, to repeating them.
Andrews should have retired when his son died. He hasn't been the same since. Amato... well Chuck's been a clown since the day he came back to be Bowden's babysitter.
The one positive for 'Nole fans in this defensive collapse is the knowledge that this program is going to skyrocket once it sheds itself of the three lazy coaches picking up checks.
Tomorrow: Could a bad defense in 2009 be good for the program?
Actually, yes. I'll have more on that tomorrow. I'll leave it to you to speculate as to why in the comment section.
GO NOLES!!
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Article went full circle on the D
It’s always darkest before the dawn. Good way to look at things.
Did anybody see Rod’s TD play that could describe what took place?
Those quotes from Mickey are pretty depressing. It reads as if he devised the perfect scheme but his players decided to wear their helmets backwards and run into each other.
Great to hear about Ponder. Whether or not our Defense is giving him an honest look, it’s encouraging to hear that he’s nailing his targets (especially downfield). You can knock his play all you want, but the fact is that he has literally ZERO competition this Spring but you’d never know from reading the practice summaries and his quotes. Keep digging, Christian. You’re going to need to light up the board for us to win in 2009, and you will. (Why am I speaking in 2nd-person? I loathe myself)
It's never Mickey's fault.
In his mind he can do no wrong.
We have to be encouraged by our offense…..however the defenses we play may not be so forgiving.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
I think you have to look at where he is coming from.
He spent 20+ years as one of the best defensive minds in the game. He engineered a Defense that seemed to be able to handle just about anything the other team threw at him. After so many years of knowing the answer, someone of his experience is going to have a hard time finally admitting that, this time, his way is not the right way.
I’m not excusing the bottom line, which is that he refuses to learn/make the proper strategies/adjustments. But I at least understand why he thinks he can continue to attempt to shove the round peg through the square hole.
by Mr. Tito Carlos on Apr 2, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Let me give the homer/head-in-sand line on this board to save anyone the trouble.
(I don’t even have to look at the other boards to know what the few posters left are saying:)
1. It’s only a scrimmage. We’ll be alright
2. It’s only the spring. Come fall, we’ll be alright.
3. We’re playing a lot of new players and trying new things. We’ll be alright.
4. Mickey’s been a great coach. He’ll figure it out, and we’ll be alright.
5. Jimbo’s trying some unexpected new looks. Mickey will figure it out, and we’ll be alright.
6. It’s due to a lack of talent on defense. Once "players X, Y &Z " get into the system, we’ll be alright. (Implicit in thaf is the rationale that it’s not the D staff’s fault we lack defensive players.)
7. Wow, Ponder is really special. We may not face another player like him. When we face other teams this fall, we’ll be alright.
Did I leave any out?
I don’t mean to be harsh or insulting to poeple who, beacuse of their good wishes for our program, want to believe any of these excuses. But as I said during the nepotism era, until we admit the problem, we won’t address it, and our high expectations will only lead to disappointment.
Hmm what about...
pointing our the 2nd team’s success? Or, citing the lack of “starters”? (Despite the fact that the offense is missing more starters than the defense).
#4.
Relying of past successes to the detriment of present realities and preparation is what gets anyone in trouble. Look at me, I’m sitting here typing about CFB when I have a ACTG theory exam… well, i graduated magna cum laude in May but I still have this test waiting in a couple hours that doesn’t care what I graduated with. Neither will the opposing offense for Mickey.
- the talent will not be developed and so we might have a certain increase in quality play but not to the level where it will make us just better than average, IMO.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
I have my moments.
Thx.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
I misread your post and saw it as you were advocating the list. My bad.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
I did think of one more:
“Dot, Thank U 4 keeping us informed!! Where would we be without U!! C U at the Spring Game!! (Will U be wearing Garnet or Gold??)”
O goodness!
We better start praying as Bobby eloquently put last year that our defense does something. I feel desperate relying on freshman to figure this thing out.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
Around the program for about 24 years.
And I mean around it— in the early 90’s I lived a block from the practice fields and used to take my kids down to watch.
by PeachTreeNole on Apr 2, 2009 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Not that I completely disagree with you regarding MA & his schemes...
but previously everyone was concerned about the D losing a bunch of senior starters this year. Now, there is no mention of that.
Let’s put down our pitchforks and handtools for a moment and take an objective look at what the defense did:
McNeil – 4 yard sack.
McNeil – chased Ponder which turned into a “long run” because of Ponder’s running ability. Most QBs won’t be doing that to our defense (save for Tebow & Taylor).
Mangum TFL – all I can say here is WOW maybe we’re wrong about Mangum (but probably not).
McCray – fumble recovery. This is on Reed, but shows good hustle by a DT.
Carr – TFL on Ponder (which apparently isn’t easy even in two-hand touch).
White – QB pressure results in an incomplete pass & nearly a pick.
3-and-out in the RZ.
Did the defense give up some big plays? Yes, they did. But, why are we surprised when JT gets a long run? He did that all of last year to a lot of good defenses. Why are we surprised now that we have a o-line that has played together for a year under Trickett that is FINALLY giving Ponder time to throw? When you have time to throw, any decent QB will pick apart a defense. (Also, when you throw in a couple of 70+ yard plays, the average gain per play is going to be skewed) Is the defense really that bad, or is the #1 offense in the ACC last year, starting to click now that the players are in their 3rd spring under Jimbo?
Certainly, we have some question marks not only scheme-wise but personnel-wise on the defensive side. However, all in all, I see positives for both sides from this scrimmage. Yes, the offense “won,” but the defense looks like it is making plays as well.
The way our defense plays— overly aggressive, often over pursuing— will yield some negative plays. Even when being bulldogged by UF, we got some negative plays. That’s why it’s very important to evaluate the entire body of work. For instance, is this good?
1-10: sack, 7 17: incomplete
2
3-17: Ponder passes to Goodman, 45 yards.
Of course not. Now, only one of the three plays worked, but the defense still yielded 45 yards over three plays.
I see Andrew Carter confirming what our “jogger” said (defensive linemen getting blown off the ball). The defense is just getting worked.
Addressing some of the individual points:
McNeil – chased Ponder which turned into a "long run" because of Ponder’s running ability. Most QBs won’t be doing that to our defense (save for Tebow & Taylor).
This means that Ponder was untouched. That’s really concerning that our defensive end loses contain and Ponder is able to break a 20+ yard run untouched! Never underestimate the limiting power of the green jersey, which is effectively the 12th defender.
Further, even quarterbacks like Chris Crane (a huge, barely mobile guy for BC) ran on us last year. Remember that last drive when they ran the same play down our throats? In addition to Tebow and Taylor (though VT is off the schedule), Grothe, Russel Wilson for NCST, and Jacory Harris of Miami are all perfectly capable of gashing us. Plus, we have the GT game, and Clemson’s QB’s are very mobile now.
Mangum TFL – all I can say here is WOW maybe we’re wrong about Mangum (but probably not).
Bad pitch.
McCray – fumble recovery. This is on Reed, but shows good hustle by a DT.
Love the hustle from the big fella. Unfortunately, we know for a fact that fumble recovery is not a repeatable kill. It is entirely luck. That may seem counter intuitive, but I’ll find the study if you’re interested. Once the ball is on the ground, it’s random. Interestingly, interceptions are not random.
Yes, they did. But, why are we surprised when JT gets a long run? He did that all of last year to a lot of good defenses.
I’m concerned about the type of seams we’re getting to run. Huge gaping holes.
Why are we surprised now that we have a o-line that has played together for a year under Trickett that is FINALLY giving Ponder time to throw? When you have time to throw, any decent QB will pick apart a defense.
This is true, but it seems that our defense is repeatedly blitzing and getting gashed. Look at evenflow58’s comment below for further proof.
Is the defense really that bad, or is the #1 offense in the ACC last year, starting to click now that the players are in their 3rd spring under Jimbo?
I’m more discouraged by the defense than I am encouraged by the offense. I hope that works as an answer. Our wideouts are very young and at this point, I don’t think we should expect them to be running wide open— but they are.
I really like your enthusiasm, but I completely disagree with this:
Certainly, we have some question marks not only scheme-wise but personnel-wise on the defensive side. However, all in all, I see positives for both sides from this scrimmage. Yes, the offense "won," but the defense looks like it is making plays as well.
18 plays for 45 yards. Snap. 14 yards. Snap. 14 yards. I don’t see any positives for the defense. I see some negative plays for the offense, generated by the defense’s aggressiveness, but I see a defense that is paying an enormous price in terms of big plays in order to generate those negative plays.
Good response.
1) Our defense has ALWAYS been overagressive and overpursuing. This is nothing new. In recent years, we’ve also given up some big plays. I just don’t think we have the talent level on defense to fit our old scheme.
2) The Ponder I saw last year was untouched on a lot of plays. I distinctly recall a number of plays where he would wiggle through the line when there was seemingly no hole. Ponder is elusive. Remember the UM game? He effectively won that game for us and ran for 1st down after 1st down.
I agree that our defense was atrocious in the BC game. Crane looked like an All-American when he shouldn’t have. However, I think he was deceptively quicker than he looked. That or our defense was uncharacteristically slow that game. Yes, there are other ACC QBs that can run, but none of them are better runners than Ponder IMO. It’s good that our defense gets to practice against an agile QB.
3) Fumble recovery = luck. I totally agree, which is why I pointed out that a big dog was chasing down a shifty little receiver.
4) Huge gaping holes are not good, but it looks like we’ve been passing often and fairly well. A well executed passing game will keep the safeties from cheating up to stop the run. Certainly, I think this may support your argument that we can’t stop anybody with 7 in the box. However, I’m not sure this is really any different from any other Nole defense. Everyone has known that to beat the Noles, you just have to run it straight down their throats. Same thing with the blitzing and getting gashed. It seems like MA has always been big on the blitz, and sometimes we get gashed.
5) Yes, we have wideouts that are young. However, look who’s making the major plays: Rod Owens – Sr, Bert Reed – he’s been around, Givens – he hasn’t been around our program forever, but he’s a Sr with experience. I still think our receiving corp is talented enough to get the job done.
Bottom line: we’re exactly where I expected us to be (and I think where you expected us to be as well). I would be concerned if our inexperienced, less talented defense was dominating the offense like in past springs. Does the defense suck? Right now, probably. But I also think it’s easier to work out kinks in your defense than it is to correct problems on offense (like we’ve had in the past).
Spring Game
Is there any chance of seeing the Spring Game on TV this year? I know last year they said it was going to be featured on “Under the Lights” but there was almost no game coverage on that thing.
Anybody planning on going?
I’d like to hear a first hand account.
I think we will have a lot of Tomahawk Nation readers
In fact… check back tomorrow for a special project.
I found this quote interesting. This is Mickey speaking about Mangum
“His coverage should be good because the coverage is actually easier as a rover than it was corner except when he’s got to get out on one-back sets and cover wideouts. But he’s had a ton of work at one-on-one at those.”
So has he been getting the practice because Mickey thinks that leaving his DBs out on an island in these sets will be a large part of the FSU defense or because Jimbo is running a bunch of these plays against the defense?
Ugh. So we're going to continue to run what we've always run.
I’m not surprised, but that quote is telling. I’m disappointed in Mick. He didn’t even go to another school to swap ideas. Offensive coordinators are licking their chops.
Didn't he plays some zone in the UM game last year?
That seemed to work well. Or was it just b/c Marve sucked.
If it weren't for those ridiculous trick plays
Shannon pulled out of his @$$, I’m not sure that game would have even been close.
It looked like a well-called game at the time, but after some of our other games I think UM just wasn’t that good on offense.
Why didn’t we go to zone against BC, UF or GT? Even if a zone scheme isn’t the right call, for the love of God, do something different.
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2008/10/4/628366/noles-work-canes-then-hold
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2008/10/5/628624/noles-by-the-numbers-fsu-s
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2008/10/7/630619/inside-the-seminole-film-r
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2008/10/12/633591/inside-the-seminole-film-r
Enjoy :)
I'm pretty sure I've read all of those...
but it wouldn’t hurt to go back and read them again. :)
That was about the time I started reading.
definitely by October.
It looked like a well-called game at the time, but after some of our other games I think UM just wasn’t that good on offense.
Agreed.
Im also dissapointed in Mickey too.
He is just being stubborn, we have to make adjustments or it will be the same old stuff.
Unfortunately, if the defense is as bad as the scrimmages might indicate the playing field is leveled between FSU and UM come the first game.
Since there was an advantage to playing them first with them having a new OC.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
We will need to outscore them.
The ball is in their court, however, as we thrashed them last year. Their new offensive coordinator is very respected in the coaching community, however, and I am scared of the Miami game (rightfully so).
I think a big factor is going to be if we can discourage them early.
I know this is simplistic but I think, in the first game especially, a team with great talent but not much maturity like Miami can be a ticking time bomb if they get extra motivated by a few good things happening early. I wonder how much of our first half last year was due to Miami’s lack of confidence after we jumped on them early.
I’d be willing to bet your absolutely right though about having to outscore them.
"Love will come to save us, if we’ll only call, He will ask nothing from us, but demand we’ll give our all...Love is a shelter in a raging storm; Love is a peace in a middle of a war, and if we try to leave may God send angels to guard the door."
I still think we would have the advantage
The offense may be new and improved, but will still be relatively new to the Canes. Jimbo’s transformation of the offense wasn’t an overnight event. I believe we can expect a similar learning curve for Miami. In time, we may be in for problems, but I still expect to see a sloppy and unorganized Miami offense on Labor Day 2009.
by Mr. Tito Carlos on Apr 2, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope your right.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
hopefully something will change...
right now mickey looks like a jackass out there. it this continues into the summer im sure he will be cramming to learn new schemes … if he already isnt, which he should be after looking at these awful numbers.
I do feel having dekada back will help a little.
thacker…stay out as long as you need buddy.
I wonder how long it will take us to learn how to defend the spread if mickey accually tries to learn it???
Am I the only one who doesn't hate Thacker on this board?
The kid can’t help that he’s a DE playing DT… not that he would be good at DE either, but let him play his true position.
Thacker got hyped up coming out because he can bench 700, and he had some mud on his face after an all star game.
Kill a fly with an axe - Mickey Andrews, his 1998 playbook
I wonder how long it will take us to learn how to defend the spread if mickey accually tries to learn it???
I don’t. We are already telling recruits that Mickey is done after this year. It would require him changing our mentality, and his own. I doubt it happens under Andrews.
How do we know for sure
this will be his last year? It seems like the last 2 years were his last year but Bobby keeps persuading him to come back. Have you heard a recruit or coach say this was Mickey’s last year directly or is that just your feeling based on rumors and such? I know Jujuan Harley mentioned something about it but I won’t believe anything until it actually happens.
What would you do?
Mickey’s been a coordinator or head coach for over 30 years. He’s been at FSU 25 of those.
Jimbo has been an offensive coordinator for roughly 10 years and never been a head coach. He’s only been at FSU for 3 years.
Jimbo is 43, Mickey is 66.
Would you stick around?
Its all up to Bobby
if hes done this year MA and chuck wont be here next year. funny think is I bet Chuck is pink sliped the same day and MA leaves with Bobby. dont get me wrong god belss MA for his pass and what he has done but FSU needes to move on.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
I still want to know who the heck Jimbo is going to go after for the OC and DC spots.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
That's a great question.
And a good subject for an article/blog… hint, hint
Manny Diaz will be a candidate for DC. He can also coach LBers.
I hope Stroud gets the DE job.
Buck will take over DBs, and I say give him a year. Recruits love the man.
Kill a fly with an axe - Mickey Andrews, his 1998 playbook
Diaz also has ties to SoFla, which Jimbo loves.
Diaz played/coached here as well.
Kill a fly with an axe - Mickey Andrews, his 1998 playbook
that works for me I have no clue who he is though
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Hmmm... interesting:
During Rick Stockstill’s helm at Middle Tennessee, Manny Diaz’ defense has been one of the most disruptive in Blue
Raider history. Nothing changed in 2008 as the unit collected 85 tackles for loss and 25 quarterback sacks. The TFL’s ranked
second on the single-season list while the sacks came in at fi fth best. Over the past three years, Diaz’ unit owns three of
the top fi ve TFL records and three of the top fi ve sack marks. Linebacker Ivon Hickmon led the way with 13.0 tackles for
loss to tie for the 10th most in a season while linebacker Lonnie Clemons paced all Blue Raiders with 4.0 sacks.
Well if he gets the job...
…we know his defense will be good enough to, at the very least, stop Maryland.
by Mr. Tito Carlos on Apr 2, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Expect Coley to be the OC. Coley is the only coach hand picked by Fisher and is Fisher’s eyes in the booth. He also is the best recruiter we’ve got and is big in SoFla. He was also the OC at UCF and left that job to become the TE coach at FSU. I have to think an OC job was promised for him to make that move.
Any chance the OC position would go to
Rick Trickett? He’s obviously looking for a huge bump in salary and that would be the way to go. I don’t think RT has OC experience but if given the position (regardless of who it will be), calls would still go through Jimbo. Of all coaches, RT deserves a nicer salary.
For FSU’s next DC, wasn’t there another name mentioned other than Manny Diaz(who maybe had connections to Jimbo or Rick)?
I don't see Trickett being an OC.
He may get an honorary title like “executive assistant to the assistant head coach” so that they can justify a bigger salary.
True
regardless… RT deserves more money. With BB and MA possibly retiring, that’ll free up a lot of $$$. And after Chuck and Jody get pink slips, more dough to pass around to those more deservng or replacements.
Money
MA makes about $315,105,
BB make about $2.5 million
Jimbo makes about $625,000
I cant find out how much Chuck and Jody make but in it was about $200,000 in 2006.
Im sure Jimbo will get about what BB makes maybe more. But thats around $1,340,105 for a DC, OC, TE, and LB coach. Im not a money guy and have no clue what people get paid but seems we could get some good coaches with that money and even get the ones we want to keep something nice to keep them here.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
No, very unlikely
Jimbo and him don’t see eye to eye anyways. You can see it sometimes in our recruiting practices.
Remember our discussion regarding the importance of consistent...
running plays? How it is better to have a back log 100 yards with lots of 4-5 yard plays versus 2 50 yard homeruns? Well considering how explosive offenses may be against our defense, we’re going to need to control the clock with a consistent running game. But, how the hell are our backs going to learn how to fight for 4 and 5 yards when the D gives them 50 and 60 in practice?
Whatever… I guess a 52-51 FSU-Miami score is better than a 2-0 game as it had been for awhile…
That's a good point.
But, how the hell are our backs going to learn how to fight for 4 and 5 yards when the D gives them 50 and 60 in practice?
I think that might be a good problem to have ;) We know that Thomas and Jones are very good at getting upfield quickly without dancing.
I agree it's not bad to have some homerun hitters...
I just worry that like in previous springs we excused the pathetic offense because our defense was just so “dominant.” Then by midseason we realized that our offense was just horrible and our defense average. So, I guess my point is that Mickey’s scheme or lack thereof does nothing to help the Offense, unless you think false confidence really helps. It’s nice to see an offensive coach exploit a defense, it just sucks when that defense is your own.
Great point...
but I don’t know if I want Thomas and Jones fighting for extra yards in spring practice.
Man this hits the spot
Im glad Jimbo is taking it to MA. Now we need MA to grow up. This could be a long year for Nole fans. I dont want to be like the big 12 teams next year but we might have to be. Something Im getting from this is that when our Def is backed into the red zone and teams try a more power/pro-style we might be able to stop them. What seems to be killing the Def is giving up the big plays. Thats going to be hard to stop. Is one of the problems not having the players on Def yet. It seems like they can still get to the QB. but the plays they dont there is no help from the secondary. will the True Fr coming in the fall be able to make an impact.
Cant wait tell tomorrow because I think you are right Jimbo killing the Def right now will be better in the long run.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Great point Des
Our RZ defense looks to be holding strong.
Let's talk to the Denver Broncos to see how they use a zone blocking scheme in the red zone.
It’s something I occasionally think about.
My initial thought? Run Ponder in the redzone more often. He’s really slippery.
well I like the idea of the spread in the redzone
but Teams like Wis and Ohio St score more in the redzone when size and power help
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Hmmm... that's not a bad idea.
I actually wondered why we didn’t do it more last year. Maybe Jimbo didn’t want to get Ponder completely destroyed…
TCU
there playbook runs the spread but still has the power I in it. So when they need to get those 2-3 yards they load up the backfield and power it down your throat. we could almost do something like that where we have the TE as a FB and 2OT as the TE. Run Sims at FB and Thompson as the Power back. If we couldnt get 3-5 yards that way we dont need to play football anymore
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
aww that was brutal
Hurt me just watching it
Was that the one
where it looked like he got split in two? I don’t remember what game it was…
can't remember...
I thought it was end zone, but now that you mention it maybe it was another play.
Above they say we throw to the TE for a TD
When did FSU start to use a TE. I didnt know we had one. JK I like this idea teams know we dont use one that often and MA needs to get the idea that we need to stop them.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
I spit out my beer at the Champs Sports Bowl when Piurowski caught one for a TD.
"The other day I... uh, no, that wasn't me." - Steven Wright
Though technically a major party foul...
…at least the Citrus Dump got a much needed rinsing. Has a TE gotten a single throw this spring outside of redzone? Not overly shocked or anything, just curious / hadn’t seen it.
a few questions about Micky
1)What made Mickys Def so great. I think there is more to what is going on that we think?
2)Back to the size what was the avrage size of the front 7 in the 90s?
3)What happened to Mickys game plan for recruiting players to fill the holes?
4) Last why cant Mickys plan still work?
FSUn thinks size matters, when you dont have the size what else can you use to make up for that.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Des I want to answer this but I have a meeting. Not ignoring it, but it will take more time than I have right this minute.
Back after a while guys.
thats cool I have to close and head home Ill get back on later.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
I can answer #3
What happened to Mickys game plan for recruiting players to fill the holes?
Mickey got lazy after his son died. Plain and simple. He should have retired. No one would have blamed him. He wasn’t in a coaching state of mind.
That, and bad philosophy.
Kill a fly with an axe - Mickey Andrews, his 1998 playbook
I completely agree.
I wouldn’t have blamed him one bit for retiring after his son died. I actually thought he would.
I was under the idea
that back in the day when all was good we didnt have to worry about the size because we didnt have to go recruit like we do these days. Back then we got the pick of the litter. We took only guys that were top5 in there pos. and everyone wanted to come to us like the USC or UF today. I dont know how or if we can get back to that. Im not sure we want to because if we do this will happen again.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
1)What made Mickys Def so great. I think there is more to what is going on that we think?
A few things have happened since the late 90’s:
- Offenses changed: Back in the mid-90’s the pro set was the most popular form of offense. Mickey was able to recruit superior athletes, stick 8 in the box to stop the run and not have to worry about his DBs getting beat. Things have changed, however, and teams now run more 4-wide and 1 back sets.
- As a continuation from the above point: The phasing out of a FB, a big staple of a pro-set offense, has led to more WRs on the field. This now means at least 3 DBs out on an island on any given play. Also the TE has become more athletic and it’s a mismatch every time he steps onto the field…especially when he’s not covered because the safety has to step up into the box to stop the run.
- Size and speed don’t exist in a vacuum: It used to be that a player either had size or speed because the high school and college training programs just weren’t what they are now. However, training has become much much more important in sports and these aspects are no longer diametrically opposed to one another. Mickey’s defense was good because they could run around everybody. However, now that big guard or tackle can move their feet with the best DEs and still plow them over.
- Athletes are now more specialized: A kid will work his whole life to be a safety and when he gets to FSU he’s now a DB. Unfortunately he hasn’t had much one-on-one action and can’t hang with the better WRs for long. Heck, when put out on an island the rules say no DB can hang with a WR for long and we can’t put consistent pressure on the QB, EB withstanding.
I’m sure other posters will have more to add as it wasn’t just one issue that has caused Mickey’s downfall but these are just a few I can think of….and my hands are tired from typing all day.
To add to evenflow's great post
5. Mickey was one of the greatest defensive coordinators of all time, in my eyes.
6. Mickey was one of the greatest defensive backs coaches of all time, in my eyes.
Kill a fly with an axe - Mickey Andrews, his 1998 playbook
DB still have to cover the same
why cant he teach the new Gen. how to do this.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Because we're asking them to pull double duty.
We are too SMALL, so we ask the DB’s to do too much run support, and they can’t focus on coverage.
Receivers are more athletic. You really need to get preassure on the QB to reduce the amount of time a DB has to cover a receiver. There are a myriad of ways to do this (mixing up coverage, blitzing, getting preassure without blitzing, etc) but Mickey seems to just use blitzing. What we line up in is what you get, which is fine if you can out athlete the players across from you but you just can’t do that anymore.
Combine all that with the fact that schemes have built in ways to keep the defense honest (bubble screens, zone reads, jump passes, etc) and you create an environment that if you aren’t spending 24 hours a day trying to reinvent yourself you’ll fall behind.
by evenflow58 on Apr 3, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
but
I didnt see other teams running the bubble screens thats a FSU think. What all teams run the Spread in the ACC. most teams dont run it. Also The ACC sucks on Off right now. VT, GT, and FSU have the best ones.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Michigan, West Virginia, and UF now do it a ton (bubbles).
Pure spread, with the wide linemen and 4 or 5 wideouts? Not many teams are running it consistently in the ACC, you’re right.
thanks I agree and understand
Not MA and co but the Spread as a whole it seems like an unstopable force. if you have 5 guys to cover 3-4 Wr that only leave 6 in the box Vs 7-8. Im going to try to do some work on this. I want to know how much teams run the ball w/ the spread. It seems like it should be eazy to run the ball with the option in this also.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
The spread is no different from any other offensive philosophy in that it was created to attack the dominant defense of the time. The spread, whether you mostly pass or run out of it, forces defenses to play good sound football. It punishes aggressive play (like blitzing) and BRINGING 8 INTO THE BOX, which are the qualities that made defenses so good against pro style attacks.
Eventually DCs will figure a way to consistently stop the spread and OCs will have to figure out something else. Unfortunately Mickey is trying to fit a square peg (our traditional defense) into a round hole (the defense needed to stop the spread) and is getting gashed.
Most teams that run the spread actually run out of the spread. Many people think the passing game makes the spread deadly because you have so many receivers on the field but it’s really the running game that does it. The offense has forced the defense to either spread LBs out and cover or bring in more DBs, who don’t usually tackle well. Then they run the ball with the QB which means there should only be 1 available player to tackle the ball carrier.
So DCs brought up that extra man and played a cover 1 or put a LB out on a slot WR and now you have mis-matches. The defense needs to play assignment football (like defenses against the option did) and quickly read and react. To do this you need good coaches up and down the line to teach each position what their role is. Unfortunately we just don’t have that.
by evenflow58 on Apr 3, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And this is where the hybrid SS/LB are coming from
Get a bigger SS or a smaller faster LB to cover the slot WR. What I dont get is why cant MA talk to Jimbo. If MA can work with Jimbo and stop his spread he should be able to stop other teams because we should have one of the better spreads in the ACC if not the NCAA. Jimbo knows what hes looking for where the holes are and hes telling his Off this. Why cant he tell MA this is what you are going to need to do try it. The team is not just the players. The coaches are part of the team to.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
But that would make too much sense.
I get the feeling that there’s no love lost b/t the off. & def. coaches…
I don't know...
we already have tiny linebackers, and that doesn’t seem to be doing the trick. I think some teams are doing well against the spread with bigger athletes…
Question for everyone… were we worse against spread runs or spread passes?
Spread Run
what hurt us last year. BC zone read in the 2nd half and NCST QB running. VT was on a roll tell there QB’s went out. UF is just a beast right now but Tebow is the power behind it. If we can stop the rushing QB and RB force teams to throw on us. I would rather have teams try to beat us with passing than running. When teams try to pass in the spread its the same thing as 3rd an long in the 90s. Shotgun pass. Its a more prostyle and I think MA can stop it if he knows a team is passing.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Bingo.
You must take the run away (not completely, that’s impossible and unrealistic), and then manage the pass.
What is our weapon
The running game. what are teams going to fear. Ponder handing the ball off then him running it and then passing it. That the same thing for every spread team.
So let me get this right. Teams have to stop the run with 6 in the box agenst 7-8 (1C, 2G, 2T, 1Qb, 1Rb, and sometimes a FB, 2nd RB or TE, and/or a WR in motion. If you stack 7 in the box it leave mismatches with a LB or SS covering a faster better WR. because teams like us have players like a preston parker or Percy Harvin have to have at least a SS covering out there.
Now from what I have seen and FSUncensored is the one that has shown me the light. how can we do this. SIZE matters to a point. How did BC own us last year with 2 DT that were 650lb between them both thats. ours were about 560 last year then you add the DE and that only 490lb 1050lb for a DL. BC huge O-line just pushed us back and got about 4-7 yards a play in the second 1/2 and there was nothing we could do. they were just bigger and stronger. and thats prob going to be the same this year too.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
I think we were worse against the run period.
As we’ve discussed on here ad nauseum, the spread is actually designed to beat you with the run, not the pass.
I think your theory about the weight issue is legitimate. However, I think the “bigger” (pun intended) issue for us is the lack of talent in our front seven. I’m pretty sure we’ve always been small up front, but traditionally we had the talent and/or speed to make up for it.
I'm feeling ver lazy right now, and very qualified to be a defensive coach for FSU.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the Father but through me"
Laziness of the mind...
may be what’s killing us. I don’t think our coaches are lazy per se.
uncensored, I think you're asking for trouble by posting this on facebook
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
Because I'm afraid we'd get too much of the "facebook crowd" to join in here
With some less than intelligent commentary.
http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20081229/?pg=2
I initially worried about that
However, there are some safeguards in place to keep us above that.
First, the best way to deal with trollers is to not acknowledge them and flag their post so that I can delete it.
Second, there is some basic level of sports knowledge needed to post here. It can be intimidating (so I’m told).
http://www.facebook.com/pages/TomahawkNationcom/63264950770 is our page, I created it today.
Previously, I was posting these as items on my personal page.
someone might need to mail a letter to BB
to tell him you are doing this. I was under the idea he has no clue what facebook is.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
I'll have to think about this...
not sure I want to lose anonymity just yet ;)
ok so what teams do we play next year run the spread
Miami who knows but I would bet its more a west coast or ace back.
Jack St Spread with the Ex LSU Qb. did Jimbo recruit that kid for LSU?
BYU I think they run the spread but its not as good as the rest of the big 12 teams.
USF Spread but still not as good as 2 years ago
BC no clue but we should own them(better own them)
GT damn option
UNC not sure I think they did but lost Brandon Tate
NCST yes and have a fast QB running it. thats about all they have though.
Clem no more pro-style for now but they still have all those recruits from the last few years to work with
WF no again more pro-style but no QB (BETTER WIN)
Maryland nope but I hope we get them like last year
UF I hate them.
I the ACC I only worried about NCST, GT, and Clem. I think we can take the rest. We still need to win the out of con games.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
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