Size Matters Part Deux: Evaluating ACC Run Defenses by Sacking the Sack
In the second part of the "Size Matters" series, we attempt to better gauge run defense by focusing only on running plays. Obvious enough as that may sound, it's not quite that easy.
Note: If you haven't read part one, you need to do that first.
Despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary, many fans still believe last year's defense was an elite unit. It's not that these fans are dumb or lazy. They just don't know what to look for.
The defense had good total numbers last year, finishing 2nd in the ACC in yards allowed, but that's not the important stat. Why? Total defense doesn't account for how many times the opponent had the ball, which is as much a function of a team's offense as it is a team's defense. Simply put, FSU's offense held the ball for long stretches last year, averaging the 2nd most time per game in ACC play. In fact, FSU's defense faced the second fewest offensive plays per ACC game. It is much easier to have a "good defense" if your defense faces fewer plays per game than everyone else, if you define “good defense” in terms of total defense. The mainstream media is just catching on to this, but I expect Tomahawk Nation readers to understand that yards per play is a much better measure than total defense.
But this article is about run defense, and even those who rely on aggregate numbers can see that last year's run defense was not special. And I hope that they are willing to step out on the ledge and accept "yards per carry" as a measure of rushing success. Well, how about Yards Per Carry Allowed? To the Chart!
NOTE: Numbers are from ACC games only, as out of conference scheduling varies wildly from team to team.
| Name | Att | Yards | Avg. |
| Boston College | 298 | 830 | 2.8 |
| Wake Forest | 254 | 784 | 3.1 |
| Virginia Tech | 312 | 996 | 3.2 |
| Virginia | 327 | 1097 | 3.4 |
| Florida State | 265 | 995 | 3.8 |
| Georgia Tech | 270 | 1018 | 3.8 |
| Duke | 333 | 1265 | 3.8 |
| North Carolina | 297 | 1140 | 3.8 |
| Clemson | 285 | 1121 | 3.9 |
| North Carolina State | 256 | 1027 | 4.0 |
| Maryland | 317 | 1345 | 4.2 |
| Miami (Florida) | 344 | 1497 | 4.4 |
So, FSU was tied for 5th, along with 3 other teams allowing 3.8 yards per "carry". That's certainly not what we expect from a Mickey Andrews defense. We wish we could say FSU's run defense was better than that 3.8 yards per "carry" suggests, but that is not the case. There's a reason why we used quotation marks around carry. FSU's 2008 run defense was broken.
In American football, a carry is a statistical term equivalent to a single rushing play. A sack is defined as tackling a ball carrier who intends to throw a forward pass. A sack is also awarded if a player forces a fumble of the ball, or the ball carrier to go out of bounds, behind the line of scrimmage on an apparent intended forward pass play.
For reasons that are probably rooted in the college game's option roots, the NCAA counts a sack as a running play. The NFL does not. This us dumb, especially when you consider that official scorers denote sacks in the same way (see above definition). Can we all agree that a properly scored sack is not a running play?
While conceding that there are differences in each stadium's official scorer, let's have a look at run defense against running plays. Let's sack the sack. A sack is an outcome of a passing play, and in a later article we'll include sacks where they belong. Here are the sack results from the 2008 ACC season:
| Team | Sacks | Yards Lost |
| Virginia Tech * | 27 | 240 |
| Boston College * | 25 | 161 |
| Florida State | 24 | 179 |
| Miami (Florida) | 19 | 134 |
| Duke | 18 | 95 |
| Georgia Tech | 17 | 128 |
| Maryland | 17 | 85 |
| Virginia | 16 | 125 |
| Wake Forest | 15 | 92 |
| North Carolina State | 14 | 94 |
| North Carolina | 12 | 66 |
| Clemson | 9 | 65 |
| * Includes ACC Championship Game | ||
Florida State had the conference's best pass rush in 2008, led by All-American Everette Brown. The goal here, however, is to find the most accurate gauge of run defense. To do that, we need to sack the sack.
That's atrocious. 2nd worst in the conference isn't an off year. It's a serious problem that needs to be immediately addressed. The problem is, we're not even sure FSU knows it has this problem.
That's 1174 rushing yards allowed on 241 carries, for an average of 4.87 given up per carry. We really can't underestimate the magnitude of this problem.2nd worst in the conference is not an off year, it's a systemic issue.
This chart illustrates how much each team benefited from their sack numbers being included in their run defense totals.
In Part One (see link in lead paragraph), we discussed the reasons for FSU's poor run defense. Simply put, FSU's defense lacks the minimum bulk in its front 7 defenders to stop the run without dedicating another defender (from the secondary) to the cause. Committing an extra defender to the run overtaxes our secondary, leaving us vulnerable to play action fakes. FSU further complicates matters by misusing its resources and playing guys out of position (most notably at strong side defensive end and outside linebacker). See the first article for a huge explanation.
As a last check of our numbers, we put together a game-by-game chart.
| Opponent | YPCA w/o Sacks | Carries (w/o Sacks) | Rush Yards Allowed (w/o Sacks) | Att | Yards | Avg. | Sacks | Sack Yards |
| Wake Forest | 2.1 | 36 | 75 | 38 | 59 | 1.6 | 2 | 16 |
| Miami | 5.8 | 12 | 69 | 14 | 51 | 3.6 | 2 | 18 |
| N.C. St. | 7.9 | 21 | 166 | 22 | 157 | 7.1 | 1 | 9 |
| 15 Virginia Tech | 4.2 | 28 | 117 | 34 | 82 | 2.4 | 6 | 35 |
| Georgia Tech | 6.4 | 45 | 288 | 45 | 288 | 6.4 | 0 | 0 |
| Clemson | 4.3 | 30 | 128 | 36 | 79 | 2.2 | 6 | 49 |
| Boston College | 4.0 | 46 | 185 | 47 | 176 | 3.7 | 1 | 9 |
| Maryland | 6.3 | 23 | 146 | 29 | 103 | 3.6 | 6 | 43 |
7 of the 8 conference opponents ran for 4 or more yards once sacks were excluded, and half the opponents ripped off over five and a half yards per carry.
You don't have to take our word for it, however, as there are far more advanced metrics saying the same thing: FSU's run defense was really poor. For instance, Bill Connelly of RockMNation (Missouri) and FootballOutsiders (where he writes the widely acclaimed Varsity Numbers column). Connelly's "Conference Report" is often referenced here, as it focuses only on conference games. Here we see Bill's Run Defense Efficiency Data and made it into a handy graph. Note that this data does include sacks as running plays, we think (though we hope Bill will exclude that next year). While it does include sacks, it is adjusted for opponent (some teams didn't have to play top running offenses like FSU or Ga. Tech) and doesn't include numbers after the game is already a blowout. The higher number is better. A score of 100 is about average. FSU scored a 95.6, a score placing them in the bottom half of the conference. VT and FSU clearly receive an undeserved bump due to their sack numbers here, jumping 6 and 3 spots ahead of their rankings in the "rushing yards per carry allowed without sacks" category. The key point here is that FSU is again not a good run defense.
If these numbers excluded sacks, FSU might be dead last (as opposed to 2nd to last in our less refined measure).
This problem likely won't be fixed this year as FSU doesn't have the personnel in its front 7 after the wasted 2006 and 2007 recruiting classes, and it could get significantly worse if injuries strike the 'Noles. It is up to Jimbo and the future staff to make sure guys play the proper position and to recruit the players the FSU needs to execute its defense of choice. As noted in part one, this includes having Everette Dawkins play his natural position (Strongside End), moving Nigel Bradham to the opposite side, and having a bigger middle linebacker.
GO NOLES!!
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Comments
I'll wait to see how our passing defense fared...
If we got a significant boost in our pass defense by selling out for the sack, then this article is actually an argument against our strategy and not our performance.
Makes sense.
And that Passing is much riskier than rushing is something hat has to play in, no?
by Bud Elliott on May 11, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
We can definitely argue it as a strategy point (I don't think I like our approach personally)
But I’d rather force a team to go the length of the field 4 yards at a time than to give up huge quick plays in the passing game (obviously in the past few years we’ve allowed teams to do both).
I believe the goal of Mickey’s defense is to sell out in order to pressure the QB, force more frequent 2nd/3rd and long situations, and gamble quite a bit when the downs are in our favor. When you have a team of Peter Boulwares, Antonio Cromarties, and Dexter Jacksons this is great.
Teams could run on us in the 90s too, but we usually built a lead, forced them to abandon the running game, and allowed ourselves to take chances.
A combination of stale strategies, diminished talent, and a lack of 2-3 TD leads early in games causes us to focus on the rushing yardage we give up, because now those weaknesses lead to losses.
It's both a strategy and a personnel issue
From a strategy standpoint, the idea is that if you can pressure the QB, he is more likely to make a mistake by being forced to throw early (i.e. pick or fumble). If he holds the ball too long, then the defense gets a sack.
The problem with the QB pressure strategy is, your defense gets burned on runs in obvious passing downs b/c the two ends are overaggressive. Suddenly, the defense goes from having 6 or 7 in the box to 4 or 5.
You want to force the other team to pass,
since passing is the riskier endeavor. And you want to do this by forcing them into obvious passing situations. Nobody wants to see play action passes.
Boom!
I don’t want to even look at the pass defense.
Total indictment on Mickey and Co. Inexcusable.
FSUst,
Schools out, so if you still want a cleaned up version of that Bowden vs. Meyer let me know and I will spend some time on it for you. Just thought I’d mention.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
Bravo
This is one of the best articles I’ve read on this site. Which is really, really saying something. Very impressive research, logic, and arguments.
Eye Opening Information
Uncensored, I wish you had press credentials and could interview Mickey while throwing these stats at him. Total Jim Gray moment. Awesome.
Just to play devil’s advocate, here’s an extraneous variable to consider for this data set: Say a team is stuffing the run at will and consequently drops extra men into coverage knowing they have the rushing game handled. “Coverage sacks” could result and are possibly a direct correlation to the defense’s success in stopping the run.
I think Sacks are a result of a team placing its opponent in negative leverage situations
Whether that occurs from the opposition having two incomplete passes on first and second down, or two run stuffs.
The better run stuffing teams will usually have more sacks because they have a lot of talent, but the best sack teams might not be the best run stopping teams, because they might be getting there via excessive blitzing, etc.
by Bud Elliott on May 11, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Nice
I have a question though:
It is much easier to have a “good defense” if your defense faces fewer plays per game than everyone else.
For YPC that is what my gut tells me also, but I wonder if we take it for granted. For example (as everyone already knows this but I will map out my logic to avoid missunderstanding)
Team A: 2 run plays go for 10 yards, thats an average of 5
Team B: 3 run plays go for 12 yards, thats an average of 4
So again, my gut says that its more difficult to defend the run 3 times for 12 yards than 2 times for 10, but why isn’t the opposit also true? The defense would have less chances to stop the opponent for shorter gains. I wonder if it all depends, then, on the first few runs as to whether it makes it easier for a defense to have less YPC on more or fewer rushing attempts.
In another situation, which applies numerically since we are using averages, if your basketball player shooting free throws, is it easier to hit your usual % with 20 attempts or 10%? Well, thats not a great analogy because with free throws you don’t have an opponent changing what he does… how about, like I always seem to bring up, taking exams and GPA. The more classes you take the more chances you have to get a higher GPA, but the same is also true. If you take 2 classes, if you mess up the first you are pretty bad off, but if you do really well on the first your looking pretty good. So again, isn’t it sortof dependent after the first couple chances?
Hueristics: defense is harder to play well than offense in terms of the offense is always just busting at the seams? Some softer variation but with the same point?
Help me out here?
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
Ah, miscommunication
I meant to write: It is much easier to have a "good defense" if your defense faces fewer plays per game than everyone else, if you define “good defense” in terms of total defense. Wasn’t meant to apply to Yards Per Carry.
With the GPA and rushing examples, if I had written my statement correctly the first time, it would be easier to compile total GPA points with more classes, and more yards with more carries.
The point of that was to get people to step away from total defense, a silly stat, and to accept yards per carry.
by Bud Elliott on May 11, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I dont know (still thinking through)...
keeping up with the analogy; wouldn’t it be just as easy to get a gpa of 4.0 with taking 1 class than 2? or gpa of3.5, etc. Its the classes that follow the first that matter because it would be harder to maintain a better % if classes following were more difficult, and vice versa…
My thought is that the amount of plays for any measure of defensive quality isn’t affected by the amount of attemps (other things being equal), say to stop the run, rather just what happens on an individual by individual occurence. Totaling and averaging them is a way to give an expected value approach to thinking about, measuring, and predicting football games (maybe?). So even if we were just measuring total defense, I still don’t think that it would be easier to have better total defense by having either fewer or more attempts. But what keeps me stumped is that in my gut I think it would be harder to prove something over and over again, BUT then again, if you ARE a good defense having more attempts will work to your benefit percentage wise since you would eventually have more attempts to “undo” flukes or odd occurences… the only thing that if obvious at this point is that if you are an inherently good defense, having more attemps will show that eventually and you would rather have more than just a couple attempts. Kind of getting off on a tangent.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
By GPA points I meant like..
1 A is 4.0, 1 A and 1 B is 7.0 GPA points (divided by 2 hours would be a 3.5).
So even if we were just measuring total defense, I still don’t think that it would be easier to have better total defense by having either fewer or more attempts.
I disagree. Team A faces 600 snaps and gives up 4 yards per snap. Team B faces 600 snaps and gives up 4.5 yards per snap. That’s 2400 yards v. 2700 yards. What about Team A facing 500 plays and giving up 6 per snap, while Team B faces 700 plays and gives up 5 per snap. Team B is the better defense, but they’ve given up more total yards…
Maybe I am missing something. I was just attempting to show how total defense is a poor measure of defense because it doesn’t account for things like “how long the offense had the ball, field position, etc”
I agree that having more attempts will help to level the variance and will show the true character of a defense. More events help to eliminate what some call “luck.”
Maybe I’m missing the point.
It is much easier to have a “good defense” if your defense faces fewer plays per game than everyone else, if you define "good defense" in terms of total defense.
What about Team A facing 500 plays and giving up 6 per snap, while Team B faces 700 plays and gives up 5 per snap. Team B is the better defense, but they’ve given up more total yards…
That is definitely clear, however, are you saying in the first quote that a team that has given up 2100 yards on 700 attempts is a better defense than a team that gave up 1800 yards on 600 attempts?
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
haha, ok im not going to try and use block quotes for a while...
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
make sure that you aren't prone to having seizures before looking direcly at it.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
No, I would agree that they are basically equal quality. The point is that many would look at only the total yardage and not think to look at the yards per play.
Thus why I put “good defense” in quotes.
ah' gotcha, I believe we agree then.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
by FSUvaFan on May 11, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dude, is this post one of those optical illusions
if I stare at it long enough, will I see Osceola riding through?
The point is getting at the more attemps vs fewer as being important or irrelevant
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
btw, not trying to be argumentative for no reason
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
defense is harder to play well than offense in terms of the offense is always just busting at the seams? Some softer variation but with the same point?
Not sure I exactly understand.
by Bud Elliott on May 11, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I'll get back to this later today (and a little more above).
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
The block quote was only supposed to be around the first sentance BTW.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
And with the move away from Pro Style off toward spread off..
This becomes more important. The spread beats you with the run, not the pass. A lot of the pass plays are thrown around the LOS, and really should be considered runs. When compiling these #s, did you include forward passes behind the LOS?
"We're not maxed out, ... The best is still ahead of us."
Bobby Bowden
Those numbers aren't available
Plus, they are technically passes and scored as such at every level of football. A lot of judgment starts to come in if we look to differentiate every parallel pass from every slightly forward pass.
by Bud Elliott on May 11, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree that some size in the front 7 is needed, however they should not sacrifice speed and quickness for it, no big slow guys, only big quick guys. That should go without saying.
Defense is not the problem.
I think we do need to sacrifice some speed for some size.
If you look at part one, the numbers suggest we just don’t have the bulk to play effective defense. You can’t run around every block. We can get a lot bigger and just a tad slower in the front 7, but take proper angles as a result of better leverage when taking on blockers and still get to the ballcarrier in better time.
by Bud Elliott on May 11, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Why not get size and speed, top recruits have that. Like I said "only big quick guys".
You and I both know Mickey will take quickness over size, always has. The change you suggest may work, but it also may have to happen after Mickey retires.
Defense is not the problem.
I'm not advocating slow
I’m just saying “get to this size” with as much speed as possible. Elite recruits do have size and speed, but we’ve taken this speed thing to the extreme. I’ll never turn away an elite recruit, but the guys we have at linebacker are almost the size of safeties, and we don’t have a strongside end or a decent sized defensive tackle. We’re faster than UF and Bama on Defense, but their units were much better than ours because they can maintain angles through taking on blocks.
We can’t keep this level of speed and get to the size we need, but this current level of speed is unnecessary. We’re simply not big enough to take on blockers. Teams blow us off the ball and gash us with long runs.
There’s this idea of “effective 40 times”, which is a measure of a player’s speed relative to his size.
by Bud Elliott on May 11, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
It will be interesting to see who comes in after MA retires.
And what kind of defensive philosophy they bring. About taking the speed thing to an extreme, it is no different than it was 20 years ago, MA’s guys are always speedy and undersized.
Defense is not the problem.
Speed on the interior line isn't necessary.
DT’s primary job is to stuff the run, wreak havoc on the line and free up DE’s and LBs (where speed is more important). Speed is always helpful, but speed is also useless if you’re getting blown up, pancaked or constantly overrunning the play.
I agree DT is an area where speed is not a requirement
and we have a definite need for big wide bodies in the middle.
Defense is not the problem.
But we need size at End and Linebacker as well.
Unless we want to change out entire system. Personally, I like going with quicker smaller DT’s, because of the versatility they offer, but only if we employ an actual strondside end and some decently sized linebackers. Kendall Smith scares me to death at 225lbs in the middle.
That he does.
I’m not sure what’s holding him back. It if’s lack of instincts or something that shows up on the field, then I’ll side with the coaches. If it’s this preference for absolute speed in an ill-suited personell decision to stop the spread (when it’s been shown you need to be able to quickly shed blockers to stop these spread run attacks), then I’ll be disappointed.
Nigel Bradham is afraid to drink protein shakes because the coaches don’t want him above 235lbs. Some people think he has lost weight since coming to FSU. Todd Stroud has to cry himself to sleep every night when he thinks about what our defensive coaches are asking him to do. Bradham should be at 250lbs right now, playing strongside backer.
Yeah, but how many 250 lb linebackers do you see that are any good?
I can think of the guy from WF last year. IMO, speed is much more important at LB. Maybe not quite as much at MLB, but moreso than on the line.
SoCar Jasper Brinkley
USC Ray Mualguga
Cinci Connor Barwin
UVA Clint Stidham
BC Robert Francois
all over 250
But there are TONS of guys at about 243 or greater.
All Americans
While I agree there are some good ones over 250, with the way teams fib about height and weight, who the hell knows how much John Doe weighs?
Defense is not the problem.
An exacerbating factor?
(Every time I type or say “exacerbating” I think of the poor CNN weather man, who wanted to use that word, but instead said “… and today’s heavy rains will only exasperate the flooding situation …” sigh….)
Anyway, to my actual point, considering FSU won more games than it lost, I assume I am safe in saying that they were ahead in the game more than we were behind.
I wonder how much being ahead or behind affects rushing/passing statistics. I seem to remember someone arguing in defense of the Colts defense’s poor run-stopping numbers by saying - “when you’re up 35-12, you’ll give up a 6-yard run.” I’m not sure I ever bought that logic, but it’s worth considering.
On the other hand, one would expect passing efficiency numbers to be lower for opposing teams who are behind and pass in obvious passing situations.
I guess what I’m saying is — how much does the type of season a team is having factor into some of theses statistics?
Regardless of the answers to that question, the article is terrific.
actually I believe we were behind in the first half more than ahead.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
at halftime...
Behind v. Wake
Ahead Miami
Ahead VT
Behind NCST
Behind GT
Ahead Clemson
Behind BC
Ahead MD
Wisconsin puts Fsued over the top.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
It does some,
and that’s why Bill Connelly’s numbers, even though they do include sack yardage as rushing yardage, are so important. They do not include statistics from games that were blowouts. They don’t include kneeldowns either. He only accounts for competitive possessions, and even without removing the sack yards, his numbers indicated that our run D was 8th out of 12.
If you’re up say, 28-14, midway through the 3rd quarter, however, that game can very much be in doubt, so you wouldn’t want to give up that 6 yard run.
Maryland, Miami, and Clemson all gashed us early with the run and then threw a pick-6 or crippling interception for seemingly no reason.
Bad Coaching
These teams used the old school mentality of using the run to setup the pass, regardless of the success of the run. But if your running game is successful, why abandon it. These coaches were trying to think ahead, which is a good thing, but not if you are not paying attention to what is happening in the moment.
Honestly, I think the article is spot on, FSU has lived off their ranking in total defense number for the past couple of years. On other posts I have seen where FSU fans argue with other teams fans before games about how we are a top ten defense, and we get destroyed (GT for example).
They expected us to switch to a more run-stopping mentality
Where we had thrown scissors a bunch of times in a row, and they had thrown rock, they went to paper expecting us to finally throw rock (or at the worst, paper), but we stuck with scissors, and out stubbornness actually helped us get lucky.
As an aside,
since I watch pretty much every FSU game, I’ve never been fooled by the total defensive rankings. You can watch the games and tell that we’re not that good. There were times when I didn’t think we could stop a team like UCF much less UF. IMO, our defense has not been very good for a couple years now.
I was thinking this the other night too.
Anecdotal evidence should tell most people just watching last year’s team that we weren’t stopping the run. Those multiple 5- to 10-yard gashes against our defense can hide in the stats, but they weren’t hidden from view during the games. This is why Uncensored’s analysis is excellent. People love to rewrite history with stats, and you can “prove” almost anything you want with them. But the dig, “Stats are for losers,” takes on a new meaning when fans – and coaches – refuse to learn from them. I’d love to see some real analysis hit the mainstream soon. Work like Uncensored’s puts the pressure there.
For anyone wondering, or for statisticians who might be offended...
“Stats are for losers” is what the guy says when he rubs it into you that his team beat your team by 30 points, and you come back with something like, “Yeah, well, we outrushed you AND had the better time of possession! You got lucky!” See also, Scoreboard.
Georgia Tech
I’m curious what the raw stats would look like with Georgia Tech removed from the equation. They run a very unique offense that averages nearly 100 yards per game more on the ground than the next best rushing team (FSU). 3 teams didn’t even play them (NC State, Maryland, and Wake) and Tech’s defense didn’t have to face themselves.
I don’t think this takes away from the gist of your article, but I also don’t think Miami and FSU are the two worst rushing defenses in the league.
Excellent point
I initially had a section in here about just that, but it made the piece run long. We also have to think about Tech’s team. Their QB missed a few games, missed parts of others, or was really banged up. Miami faced him at near full strength, however, and Tech gashed them.
Some would actually argue that FSU had a better run game than Tech (I disagree). Should we exclude FSU? Not specifically, but the question is at what point to we distinguish an outlier, as Tech might be?
Your point on where that line should be is a very good one. I really don’t know the answer. Would I exclude Florida? West Virginia’s spread under Pat White? I really don’t know.
That being said, I do think Georgia Tech is on the other side of that line. Miami didn’t get gashed in that game because they didn’t have the talent or athletes to match up. They were gashed because they had absolutely no idea what they were doing (which is an indictment of their coaching staff as much as anyone) or where the ball was.
If you're the one keeping this stat, can we call you Rev. Run?
And how do you feel about only wearing Adidas from now on?

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