Bowden vs. Meyer at the top of their game, who is better?
by FSUvaFan on May 12, 2009 11:55 AM EDT
76 comments
Which coach is/was better at the top of their game, Bobby Bowden or Urban Meyer?
I believe Bobby Bowden, at the top of his game (or I should say “games” as will be shown s below) is still better than Urban Meyer at the top of his.
Conclusions:
At his best(s) - (96-99 and 91-94 seasons plus a host of others)Bobby Bowden has:
1. Won more games
2. Playing higher ranked opponents (avg.)
3. Playing more ranked opponents and
4. Outscored those opponents MORE . . .
than Urban Meyer has thus far in Urban’s career (using a 4 year time span). I used a 4 year time span because that is how many years Urban has been at Florida. Even if you take Bowden’s SINGLE best year and compare it to Meyers, Bowden still comes out the better.
The following stats/records used were: W/L record of the teams, final AP rankings of the team’s who played against Florida St. and Florida, and final scores of those games.
I used these calculations to base my conclusion on:
1. Winning Percentage. This is obviously a measure of how many times the coach won in comparison to losing.
| Bowden | Meyer | ||
| Year | Record % | Year | Record % |
| 87-90 | 87.50% | (05-08 for all) | 82.49% |
| 88-91 | 85.73% | 82.49% | |
| 89-92 | 85.73% | 82.49% | |
| 90-93 | 87.98% | 82.49% | |
| 91-94 | 88.75% | 82.49% | |
| 92-95 | 88.43% | 82.49% | |
| 93-96 | 88.58% | 82.49% | |
| 94-97 | 88.58% | 82.49% | |
| 95-98 | 88.13% | 82.49% | |
| 96-99 | 92.30% | 82.49% | |
| 97-00 | 90.38% | 82.49% | |
| 98-01 | 83.98% | 82.49% | |
| 99-02 | 78.90% | 82.49% | |
| 00-03 | 73.13% | 82.49% | |
| 01-04 | 70.73% | 82.49% | |
| 02-05 | 69.43% | 82.49% | |
2. Team vs. Number of Opponents in Top 25. This is the way I tried to demonstrate a strength of schedule factor. This provides insight into the quality of opponents played. A team like Boise State can have a great winning percentage but play easy teams, so I wanted to make sure that if Bowden had a higher winning % it wasn’t because Urban is playing in the SEC (which is a tough conference).
3. Average Top 25 Opponent Ranking. This is a useful broadening of the demonstration of strength of schedule. Not only can a team play a large number of top 25 teams, the difficulty of those top 25 teams should be taken into consideration. Average top 25 opponents ranking doesn’t really mean much if FSU played the number 5 ranked team once in a season (or 4 year stretch) and FU played 13 teams with an average of 10. BOTH number of top 25 teams and the average rank of those teams work together to give a better understanding of the strength of schedule component.
| Florida State | Florida | |||||
| Year | # of Ranked Opponents played | Winning % | Year | # of Ranked Opponents played | Winning % | |
| 1991 | 6 | 84.60% | 2005 | 3 | 75.00% | |
| 1992 | 6 | 91.70% | 2006 | 5 | 92.86% | |
| 1993 | 6 | 92.30% | 2007 | 4 | 69.23% | |
| 1994 | 5 | 86.40% | 2008 | 5 | 92.86% | |
| Sum | 23 | 88.75% | Sum | 17 | 82.49% | |
| AVG Rank | 12 | AVG Rank | 13 | |||
| 1996 | 3 | 92.30% | 2005 | 3 | 75.00% | |
| 1997 | 4 | 92.30% | 2006 | 5 | 92.86% | |
| 1998 | 6 | 84.60% | 2007 | 4 | 69.23% | |
| 1999 | 5 | 100.00% | 2008 | 5 | 92.86% | |
| Sum | 18 | 92.30% | Sum | 17 | 82.49% | |
| AVG Rank | 10 | AVG Rank | 13 | |||
4. Team vs. Opponent Scoring Percentage and Ratio. This is a measure of dominance, whether it be dominance because the defense stopped the opponents extremely well (see FSU 1993), or because the offense was almost unstoppable. This can be used as a tie breaker if 1,2 and 3 are relatively close, or it can further push one coach above the rest just to pile it on.
| Florida State (96-99) | |||
|
FSU score/Opponent Score
|
2.4659249 | ||
|
Total Top 25 teams played
|
18 | ||
| Average of the Top 25 teams played | 10 | ||
| Florida State (91-94) | ||
|
Total FSU /Total Opp.
|
2.620199 | |
|
Total # of Top 25 played
|
23 | |
| Avg. Rank of Top 25 played | 12 | |
| Florida (05-08) | ||
| FU Score/Opponent Score | 2.073355 | |
| Total number of top 25 teams played | 17 | |
| Average rank of top 25 teams played | 13 | |
There has to be another post to link the details of the full details because trying to get this stuff on the website is a nightmare. So I will be working with that today. All the numbers are here though to support my conclusions, its just the details that will come later.
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FSUst, or FSUn
If I can upload the tables and provide a link for them to download that would be great (sortof like the last one).
This was harder than I expected to post.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
Definitely, they originated in Excel anyhow.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
Sure
I’m waiting to hear back from FSUn now. I will let you know.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
Its cool, I was away all evening too.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
This is pretty cool stuff FSUva
However, I would point out that Meyer isn’t finished yet. In fact, UF may have their best team yet in 2009. :(
Let’s hope not.
Thanks, agreed that Meyer COULD surpass BB but it would take another NC to do it IMO
Otherwise he has along road to hoe.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
Stay tuned for tommorow when we get all the stuff posted.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
Bowden was never as hands on as Meyer currently is. In that regard, Meyer is much more of a true coach, i.e, he teaches his players instead of just managing them. Bowden always left the coaching to his coaches. Bowden was such a fantastic motivator and CEO of the team, though. And I’m not just talking about motivating players; he galvanized the FSU fanbase.
Resident Josh Freeman fan.
Overall BB, no question.
He built his own dynasty, Meyer was handed one on a platter.
Defense is not the problem.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you gahnki.
I have mad respect for what Meyer has done, but Ron Zook handed him a sports car with a full tank.
No, you apparently have no clue how hard it is to win one championship, yet alone two in three years.
Without the key players Meyer recruits, he does not win even one championship. Without Percy Harvin, he doesn’t win one championship. Was he handed a great roster? Yes. Was he handed a dynasty? Please..there was a reason Ron Zook was fired. To say that someone was handed a dynasty is patently ridiculous. Meyer changed a lot around that program.
Resident Josh Freeman fan.
But to compare what BB was delt to Meyer is what we are talking about.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
Fail, again
I said “overall”, which is no contest, I was not off topic, yes, but my post was simply stating the Bowden is a better coach overall so fair. Which is not fair to Meyer, for that he needs to remain coach for another 30 years.
Defense is not the problem.
Also, yes Zook was also handed the keys to a "sports car" as MattD put it,
But he got behind the wheel drunk and crashed. So Meyer is a better coach than Zook.
Defense is not the problem.
See, this is a real problem with the internet. Your words are actually kept on file. You said:
He built his own dynasty, Meyer was handed one on a platter.
This is very incorrect. No one is handed a dynasty on a silver platter off of a 7-5 season which is what Meyer was working with off of Zook’s last year. He had to, you know, coach them up a bit, change some things, etc. I have no care for how this compares to Bobby Bowden. I do care for the asinine statement that Meyer was handed a dynasty on a silver platter. It’s pure, ridiculous hyperbole.
Resident Josh Freeman fan.
Bowden built his castle from the foundation up, Meyer came in and added a couple of towers to the castle already built by SS and loaded up with high school All-Americans by Zook.
Defense is not the problem.
My friend, you are still missing the point. I am not attacking or disrespecting Bobby Bowden in any way. I am just astounded that someone could say that Urban Meyer was given a dynasty on a platter.
Resident Josh Freeman fan.
I think so too.
I tried to eliminate subjective things as much as possible… or more so in your arguement, qualitative.
I think Bowden has a lot more class than Meyer as well, which is important IMO.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
Jumping the gun a bit are we?
Bowden had decades to build the program how he wanted when he hit his stride in the ’90s. Zook left Meyer some nice pieces, but they were ill suited for what he wanted to do.
Meyer has had two great seasons and two nice seasons in four years. One of the not-great ones was due to transitional years (both in players learning schemes and coaches learning how to do things on the highest level), and the other was a somewhat inevitable byproduct of the black hole of a recruiting class in 2005.
But really, as other have pointed out, four years in is far too early to judge any coach. Give him at least a decade before you compare him to the second winningest coach in the game. Or, compare Bowden’s best four to Spurrier’s best four (‘93-’96) or something.
And for the record
Meyer’s only been “at the top of his game” one season: 2008. The 2006 title was MacGyver’d together with duct tape, baling wire, and a fantastic Charlie Strong defense. The offense was awful for most of that season.
2008 is the only time so far that everything has come together on both sides of the ball.
Year2, that's too easy. Bowden >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Spurrier.
Not much of a contest right there.
If you say so, but it’s at least comparison that actually makes sense to make, unlike this whole post.
Theres no say so to it, Spurier pales in comparison to Bowden, that comparison is a waste of time.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
How can I jump the gun on past performances? I made no comments that Urban could not surpass.
Sour grapes.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
You made no comment, but you implied it with your premise. Calling the past four years the top of Meyer’s game indicates that you, in fact, believe it to be the top of his game. As four years is not enough time to judge that, I am correct in saying that you jumped the gun with this piece.
If you do not believe that the past four years are the top of Meyer’s game, then you made a poor choice of wording.
saying that he is at the top of his game is not, in fact, saying that it wont continue which is what you are saying that I'm implying
and if it continues Meyer could be better than Bowden.
What I didn’t do well was include enough wording, you are corect about the wording problem.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
I could make tons of subjective excuses for FSU not doing as well as during Bowdens tenure too
But where would that leave me?
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
I don think it should be Bobbly vs Myers but
the best of FSU past vs the best of UF now. This is what you are asking and to be truthfull I think the UF of now would beat the FSU of the past. Not because they have the better team but because they have the better Off. Also I think MA couldnt stop them now what make you think he could stop them when he was in his prime. I dont want to bash FSU lord knows I love them but I just want to be truthfull I think UF has FSU rught now. I would like to see somehting like this in about 5-6 years when we can say Myers vs Jimbo. Then this might mean something. We cant live in the past anymore. We have to look foward because the past was what got us here and gives us hope for tomorrow, but thats about it.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Hasn't Meyer also had the benefit of a couple weak years in the SEC East?
Tennessee has sucked for a long time, Georgia perennial underachievers,
Spurrier has done nothing at SC, Kentuck and Vandy have been better of recent but nothing spectacular.
Not to play Devil's advocate, but...
I think top to bottom, the SEC East is a good bit better than the ACC Atlantic…
"We're not maxed out, ... The best is still ahead of us."
Bobby Bowden
I think I have to disagree with this
The SEC east has one team that is better that all the others.
I think the rankings look like this
UF,FSU, Clemson, NCST,USC, UGA, BC, UMD, WF, Vandy, UK, Tenn
Yes UF is the best team but thats about it. Vandy, UK and Tenn are going to suck very much next year while Clemson, NCST and FSU are going to be good. BC might me ok but thats a hard one to say. I think they will fall. Some are saying USC will go 9-3 next year but I dont think they will beat NCST and Clemson. maybe one but not both. The SEC East would only be better because of UF thats it. I think from top to bottom the ACC will be the best conf because we have the better teams overall. the only bd thing is I dont know if we have a team good enough to crack the top 10 but I think at least 5 should be in the top 30 and I think 8+ make bowls again next year.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
The original comment was the last couple of years
If you realy think NC State was the third-best team in the ACC Atlantic over the last couple of years, much less the third-best team in the ACC Atlantic and SEC East combined — well, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
I wouldn’t attempt to rank teams from different conferences because there aren’t enough common data points. But I would love to see an SEC vs. ACC tournament.
And if we’re talking about top-heavy conferences — let’s stroll down memory lane through Bobby Bowden’s “peak years,” when he played an ACC slate that might have had two or three teams that you could even call Top 25 caliber with a straight face.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
*fourth-best team in the ACC Atlantic and SEC East combined
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
yes this is what I think for this coming year
NCST will be back in the mix where FW will fall out. I think its going to come down to FSU, Clemson, and NCST. NCST has a def coming back and a QB that is going to be better than ours
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Tennessee won 9 games in 2006 and 10 games in 2007. Georgia won 10, 9, 11, and 10 games from 2005-08. South Carolina’s win total under four years of Spurrier is tied for the largest such total of any four contiguous years in program history. Kentucky is on a three-year bowl streak for the first time since the 1950s. The past four years for Vandy have been the most competitive the program has been since the ’70s, and they went to their first bowl since 1982 last season.
So...
Tennessee was decent a couple years ago, Georgia still underachieved, Spurrier has still done nothing at SC, and Vandy & KU are 6 win teams. Are you saying that the SEC East has been strong the last couple years?
That's a bit of a fallacy to begin with
Florida doesn’t just play teams from the SEC. They also play LSU and two other teams from the SEC West every year and had to beat McFaddenJones University in the SEC CG in 2006 and undefeated Alabama in the SEC CG last year.
I do think you’re underestmating the SEC East, but let’s accept for the sake of argument that it’s not the strongest division in the world. Are you going to tell me that the ACC of the 1990s was a superior conference? (There’s a reason the ACC went to 12 teams. And it wasn’t because of Miami’s great basketball tradition.)
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
Not through fifth, no
Second through fourth, probably. (Alabama, Ole Miss, LSU in some order) But I think either Georgia or South Carolina will be better than Arkansas, Auburn picked the wrong coach and Mississippi State is at least two and probably three years away from a good season.
If forced at this point to rank them, I’d go:
Florida, Ole Miss, Alabama, LSU, Georgia/South Carolina, Arkansas, the other Georgia/South Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Auburn, Vanderbilt, Mississippi State
I will caveat all that by saying I have no clue about South Carolina. They could be a lot better than I have them, they could be a lot worse.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
That's why I phrased it as I did
I happen to think Arky will be pretty good, but I also struggle with the Arky UGA USCe UT foursome.
well Spurrier has done some things
He has taken the team to a bowl game like 5 years in the road. this was not a big school 10 years ago. I think hes done something and hes going to get one good year ( one good year might be all he has in him though.)
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
ok this is what I think will happen next year
UF going to the NC
USC or old miss ( I think USC goes)
UGA takes steps back
UK suck
Vandy beats UK and Tenn thats it.
Tenn done I dont see them doing anything.
Now LSU and bama take a step back and Old miss moves up.
Alburn and miss fight it out for last place in the SEC w and Ark somewhere in the mid.
Thats it. I think there are only 3 teams the SEC has right now and one of those 3 dont have a good off.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
You're going to have a hard time comparing...
…a coach who built a football program entering its third decade into a national power, with a coach who walked into a school that has the resources to win MNC after MNC regardless of who the head coach is. That Florida needed Urban Meyer to win its second and third national championships 100 and 102 years, respectively, into its football program’s existence is what’s amazing. (Trust me that Florida’s real peers, schools with traditions like Notre Dame, USC, Alabama, Michigan, and Oklahoma, couldn’t care less how Florida’s current HC is handling the has-been legend still hanging on at the upstart girl’s school. And they’re as eager as anyone to see if UF will ever go undefeated.) Regardless, Bowden and Meyer’s accomplishments are apples and oranges in a sport in which even the annual championship that’s awarded is subjective. They’ll both go down as great coaches, and both may finish his career with an undefeated wire-to-wire national championship. One may not. There’s just too many factors to consider to compare greatness in college football.
By the way...
No question Florida State was more impressive against much better schedules in the ’90’s. But that’s still selling Bowden short to only reflect on wins and losses. And there’s no way it’s fair to call Meyer’s only four years at Florida his best four years. This conversation may make more sense in, say, 20 years, but I contend it will still fall back to a comparison of apples and oranges. Maybe if Meyer had stayed at Bowling Green or if Bowden had become the coach at Alabama.
Not calling it his best, we don't know what his best at FU will be until its over
I didn’t provide enough words in the post: this is just a comparison thus far.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
Oh, I know man.
You did great. Just throwing out a concession in fairness while agreeing, “No question Florida State was more impressive against much better schedules in the ’90’s.” I still find myself having to argue this with FLORIDA STATE fans.
With all the muck and embarrassment and tribulation in the nine decades that preceded anything resembling success in UF’s football program, I know for a fact that there are only two things Gator fans really regret in their history. They both came after 1990: 1) Tim Tebow tearfully admitting in his now-famous Ole Miss post-game presser that the goal for 2008 was to go undefeated since no team in Florida’s history had done it, and 2) Steve Spurrier confessing in his farewell press conference that his success in the SEC in the ’90’s was largely due to the conference being weaker than the tradition of the SEC would suggest. One of these was handled by removing the words from a memorial plaque commemorating every other word in the speech, while the other will require my assassination. (Good luck, suckers! TRM’s not even my initials!)
Huh?
a coach who walked into a school that has the resources to win MNC after MNC regardless of who the head coach is. That Florida needed Urban Meyer to win its second and third national championships 100 and 102 years, respectively, into its football program’s existence is what’s amazing.
You do realize that statement is completely contradictory, right? I mean, if they had “the resources to win MNC after MNC regardless of who the head coach is,” they would have won more, right? Besides, try telling that to Ron Zook or every other coach in Florida history before Steve Spurrier. Winning at Florida was never a given, except when two coaches were there: Spurrier and Meyer.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
Wow.
You couldn’t put a bow on this? It’s like I needed just a little extra umph and here it was waiting for me. Here’s a tip, skigator cocknfire: If you read something and you don’t understand what it means, don’t comment. We don’t do p***ing matches here when we find ourselves a little out of our league. Sometimes silence really is golden. You might learn something.
Well since this comment is incomprehensible to me
and none of the points in it are actually explained, guess I better not comment further.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
Oh, and I'm not a Gator fan. Fact, I'm a Gamecock fan -- we don't like them much.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
"...guess I better not comment further."
Guess not. I.e., you kinda get my point, huh? (No worries though – anyone with a basic knowledge of college football should be able to explain to you how a school with Florida’s abundance of “resources” – write that down – should have, and should have had for decades, no problem piling up accolades on the gridiron. They let a girls’ school with an erector set for a stadium beat them to it. Not good.)
And yeah, I know you’re not a Gator fan, because unfortunately, there’s this very well-known phenomenon on the internet in which every South Carolina fan is mandated to include the abbreviated form of the word “gamecock” in his screenname to the point that you’re not sure if he’s a college football enthusiast or a high-ranking member of a homoerotic sect of web-savvy predators. Team speed kills, eh? I’ll take your word on that.
You know what will be funny
When UF thinks they are on top of the world and ND cans CW after next year if not sooner, and goes after Mr Meyer with all the money in the world. Just think ND they need something big and they need wins. ND is going to offer him the most money a coach has ever been offered and how could he turn that down. He wont. Tebow leaves and so does Meyer. I wont lie I would love to see the day FSU beats UF with Meyer at the helm but I dont think it will happen. Now is this even going to happen maybe I think so others might not. thats life.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Let's not forget..
I think that Meyer’s biggest advantage is using an offense that most college defenses either don’t have the right scheme, or the right players to stop . It’s not gimmicky as the SEC pundits say, but it’s still new. Much like Walsh was considered great for his timing based short passing game, this is the same thing. The NFL found away to defend the West Coast, and colleges will figure out how to stop the spread. When defenses catch up, we’ll see what kind of coach he really is. You have to remember that Bowden has evolved his style over the past 30 years to be a constant winner. From the Veer to the Fast-break, he’s used what works, been able to recruit the right guys for whatever system he’s ran, and win (up until the past few years). It’s really too early in Meyer’s coaching career to have this conversation. Meyer is a flash in the pan right now, Bowden has lead this program to greatness for decades. Yes, in the past few years our program has declined. However, even at Bowden’s worst, we’re still getting to bowl games. That’s not where we wanna be, but it sure as hell isn’t Michigan…..
"We're not maxed out, ... The best is still ahead of us."
Bobby Bowden
A flash in the pan?
Seriously? Did you check out Meyer’s results at Utah? at Bowling Green? Did he just inherit “sports cars with a full trunk” those places as well?
I do agree that it is too early to compare Meyer vs. Bowden at this point – but I am greatful for interesting posts like these to tide us over until August.
All were impressive...
Still, I hold to my idea that we’ll learn more about Meyer over the next few years. Will the spread be as dominate after defenses catch up? After Tebow leaves? Meyer’s a great coach, but better than Bowden? He’s got a long, long way before that can be said…
"We're not maxed out, ... The best is still ahead of us."
Bobby Bowden
Thank you for the compliment. I am going to post the whole thing either later tonight or tommorow A.M.
Just so you know and can see the details for yourself.
BTW, it is early to compare; originally this post was a response to a poster who said that Meyer is already better than Bowden.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
Couple points to consider
UF has money. It isn’t like we aren’t going to be able to afford to keep Meyer if another school offers him a bigger contract. If Meyer leaves UF for Notre Dame or anywhere else, it will be because he feels he has done all he can at UF. I would hope that would include a few more national titles.
If you are making the comparison of coaches, it is important to note how a coach leaves his program. In Spurrier’s last 2 years at UF, he was 10-2 and 10-3. His recruiting may have fallen off a bit, but he surely did not allow the empire he built to significantly decline while he held on trying to wrestle a personal record away from another geriatric coach.
The state of FSU’s progam when Bowden retires is yet to be determined. But his last 4 years of 9-4, 7-6, 7-6 and 8-5 surely look pedestrian for what is supposed to be a national powerhouse, especially following the gaudy numbers he posted previously.
My hope for UF is that Meyer knows when his time is done at UF and leaves the program in a healthy state where the next coach can come in and continue a winning tradition.
Wow.
Nice work, skigator. Thoughtful, informed, reasoned…. I’m… impressed. You’ve… earned my respect?
Something’s not right here. Is this the seventh sign? Connie, hold my calls.
thanks and
I really meant no offense on the other thread.
"Pride goes before destruction" that is what FSU is working its way out of now.
" And He drank the world's sin so He could carry you in, and give you life"
you know what is funny about that
There is a reason Pride is one of the 7 deadly sins. Though it leads to destruction most of the times with hope and love pride can heal and cure not destroy.
AS for the BB vs Spurrier that was greatness. If you wanted to watch college football at its best that was the game you watched. FSU vs UF last game of the season. ranking out the window, hismens who cares. winner take all pride, respect, bragging rights.
now BB vs Meyer who cares. College game day dont, more people want to know where ohio St and USC are and the big 12 game of the week. Its just not the same. And you know what its all FSU falt. some people in charge dont want to change to the now football game. they want to play the same thing that won 10-20 years ago because they think it will work.
If you take FSU best team and UF best team BB vs Meyers there is still one problem. FSU still has MA as the DC. love him or hate him hes not going to beat meyers. Jimbo might but not MA. Sorry thats just how I see this.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
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