NCAA Infractions Committee's response to FSU's appeal
It's a .pdf file, and we're not charging you for it. Andrew Carter reminds us that:
A couple things to keep in mind: The response, once again, doesn’t mean that the vacation of victories penalty will be upheld. The NCAA Infractions Appeals Committee has the final say, which likely isn’t to come for several months. Also, a couple abbreviations you might see below: COI = NCAA Committee on Infractions. IAC = NCAA Infractions Appeals Committee. They’re separate entities.
over 2 years ago
Bud Elliott
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When this is paraphrased for public consumption, it will be some Grade A damning PR for Florida State. Can't wait for Round 3, 4, or whichever round we're on.
Can we just stop the whole process now and say, okay, take the wins away? I’m not looking at this from a legal POV – though of course I’ll be interested to hear the legal experts’ thoughts here at TN – I’m just talking about the PR aspect. The nightmare continues. Worsens.
Interesting that
it says that post-season sanctions were considered, but then because the violations were so widespread that they didn’t do it.
Huh?
They won’t tell the truth – they don’t want to give post-season bans that risk the cash cows of college football and basketball. And forget TV prohibitions as well. There is too much money involved to do anything but “vacate” the past, an action that doesn’t impact future revenues.
by Wild@Heart Nole on Jun 18, 2009 2:52 PM EDT reply actions
Right, but
FSU’s knowledge premise is ridiculous. This penalty will stand.
Further, continuing this appeals process (now threatening to go to court) will drag our name through the mud well through signing day! There is a long history of grossly misplaced priorities within the FSU athletic department and the president’s office.
Tomorrow’s story will reveal some of the dark side of this whole situation, including why it never had to happen in the first place.
after reading the report
I have to agree, the penalty will likely stand.
by Wild@Heart Nole on Jun 18, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
COMPLETELY agree
FSU…no TK is only hurting FSU with this BS.
He started this just to fire Dave Hart and wound up costing FSU millions of dollars, a national title in track, the chance of Bobby have the all time win record, and endless damage to FSU’s rep.
TK is a complete disaster I would wish on my worst enemy. He is the gift to UF that keeps on giving. The last 6 years FSU has had to deal with him has been HEAVEN for UF.
e-mail me.
looking to make sure I have this whole Dave Hart thing right. Tomorrow’s story will not make some happy but hopefully it will provide pressure to stop these appeals.
In order to protect the glory one one individual
The University suffers yet again.
I have transformed throughout the years as a Nole fan. I went from believing Bobby was a saint and the end-all be-all of FSU football (a place where some people are still obviously stuck today), to feeling sorry for the man because everything is passing him by, to now just wishing he would get the hell out of the program I love so much.
How one person can be this self-absorbed is just beyond me.
When will people start realizing that FSU doesn’t owe this man anything? We’ve practically set his family up for life including him, Ann, his 3 sons and all the grand kids. I mean, they won’t be spending summers in Dubai, but they won’t starve… that’s for sure.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
Deflecting our anger to TK won't change the fact that everything he's doing, he's doing because he thinks Bobby Bowden wants it.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
This goes beyond that.
This is about how TK wanted Dave Hart out and that’s why we self reported and now he’s pushing all these appeals out of guilt because it blew up into something much more than he anticipated.
BINGO....
Bobby was angry at Hart over his son (despite it being the RIGHT thing to do) and TK wanted control over the athletic dept.
A great AD was fired in a move to place blame on him. It blew up in TK and Bobby’s face.
FSU is stuck paying the price.
by noles55 on Jun 18, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I can't agree with this comment enough
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
Great, great, great way to sum it up Noles55!
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
yeah
its kinda strange that Hart left FSU to come to Alabama and not long after he arrived we had the textbook scandal….i know he had nothing to do with it but it kinda sucks for him. He might not have the official AD title but we all know who’s running that show. We are very much hoping he does well at UA.
I agree with the commenter above on how fast BB’s reputation has declined over the past 4 years. I moved from Tally in 05 and when i left he was still a god…now…he’s more like the old dude who won’t go away….sad really…
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
I'm not questioning that
I’m just saying (as usual) the motivations behind the FSU administration are not what they appear. TK is turning this into an injustice towards Bowden in an attempt to gain support from the masses.
My point is that Bobby is embracing it instead of doing the right thing and taking that angle away from TK. All he has to say is “You know what TK, we got out of this pretty easy, doggone it, don’t make all these appeals on behalf of me for a few wins”
As usual, Bobby is using the University to get what he wants.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
by Nattylite on Jun 18, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ugh
Now Heather Dinich can write 48 more articles on this crap making sure to rehash the details of the academic scandal and also mention every arrest in past two years while she is at it.
"No, like I said, Woo peed on my rug" - The Dude
This is why the media wanted the information released. Just so they could write more stories to push papers and get views on their sites. This was not driven by wanting to inform the public. It’s not like the information was never going to be released. It was going to be released when the real final decision is made.
Abuse of Discretion
Not the NCAA is the paragon of due process, but for those of us without the benefit of a legal education, it might be useful to understand generally what is meant by the term “abuse of discretion.”
When you have an appeal, the party appealing (the appellant) is taking issue with something the lower body did. That decision being reviewed, in this case, the vacation penalty, is subject to analysis by the appellate court (here, the Committe on Infractions) based upon a particular standard of review.
There are different standards of review, ranging from no deference to the lower bodies findings, to extreme deference to the original decision. A review under an abuse of discretion standard is at the extreme deference end of the spectrum, and is the most difficult posture to be in when trying to get a decision reversed.
I haven’t read the COI Oklahoma report, but it seems that the main point of FSU’s argument is that the lower body has to specify how much weight they gave to institutional cooperation, something that the original report does not do. I don’t know whose position is correct, but if an express finding by the lower body as to what weight it gave each factor (and most importantly the cooperation factor) is required, then the lower body may have departed from the essential requirements of “law”.
Long story short, and you don’t need a legal education to figure this out, don’t hold your breath waiting for a reversal.
However, if the COI were smart (and serious about wanting there to be an incentive to cooperate), it would realize that a policy of requiring weight to be specifically assigned to institutional cooperation would be a good idea. If FSU is wrong on how the findings must be made, there is no incentive to cooperate, since such cooperation ( the hiring of expesnive consultants, remedial plans, upgraded technology and internet security) can be entirely dispached by a perfunctory sentence.
As an aside, I found the NCAA’s response to be fairly unprofessional and at time juvenille. I did not, however, find it surprising.
by fsu44 on Jun 18, 2009 3:34 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
seemed quite so
As an aside, I found the NCAA’s response to be fairly unprofessional and at time juvenille. I did not, however, find it surprising.
Don't worry
I am holding my breath hoping that it is NOT reversed.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
agreed
If the NCAA can come back if FSU wins its appeal and impose a different penalty, i.e. additional scholarship penalties, then I certainly am rooting for an affirmance.
It is a sad commentary on the priorities of our athletic department and school that they are willing to put Bobby’s pursuit of an individual record above the rebuilding of the program itself.
If FSU accepted .....
… scholarship reductions as a substitute for vacated wins, I believe you would see an alumni/fan base rebellion unprecedented at Florida State, if not elsewhere.
You know we won't let you quit.
In fact, you may have to either lead or talk us out of a rally involving pitchforks, torches, and pieces of fabric that once formed a sweatshirt that roughly read “Clem” on one side and “State” on the other. (I have Ann Bowden in the trunk of my car.)
LOL
and thanks to the new recruiting map, you know where I live. Hmmm
by Bud Elliott on Jun 19, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I recall Uncensored saying something like the current scholarship reductions will “barely be felt.” So, a few more losses of scholarships will become a devistating loss? (I’m assuming they would tack on one or two more per year, a 2% loss).
It would be a slap in the face in my opinion
Are you ok with taking away scholarship opportunities from kids who are trying to fulfill their dreams in favor of giving an 80+ year old man a few more wins on his resume to talk about over the dinner table?
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
Well considering the struggle it took to get this document released
I’m not surprised at the tone.
This could have been yesterday’s news sooo long ago. Now we’ll go into Seminole Showtime with headlines continuing to be about FSU and the cheating scandal. Completely unnecessary. Hell, even the struggle to release the documents had 3 out of the 8 headlines on ESPN about lawsuits and FSU. Absurd.
I’d love for someone at the Athletic Department to defend a cost benefit analysis for us. Hell, even someone from the Boosters who are apparently funding this unmitigated disaster. Please explain why we should use your money to drag the reputation of the University through the mud all through the summer? Why?
by coonhound on Jun 18, 2009 4:37 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree with MOST of the comments here about TK, BB, and wanting the whole thing to just go away.
The COI was so very concerned with making an example of us, because the cheating involved a ONLINE course. Most of us here understand that online courses will play a much greater role in the future of academia due to cost savings, budget shortfalls, convenience, etc., and the NCAA wanted a precedent in place so these courses are monitored more carefully in the future.
IMO the bottom line, and here is where I differ from most of you.
-The vacating of victories sanction WILL BE reversed by the appeal committee, at some point, someday, but not soon enough for any of us.
-There will be no additional penalties or sanctions imposed when the vacating of wins penalty is reversed. It will be over, and we will have won. However we will have really lost with how all of this publicity regarding this whole fiasco, the cheating, the verdict, the appeal, etc, has tarnished our image and further damaged our reputation.
To slap us with additional or more severe penalties would be an affront to the whole appeal process. Think of it as someone being found guilty of 2 crimes, lets say murder and a gun charge, and sentenced. The murder conviction is appealed and overturned. Then the appeal judge decides that the gun charge sentence/penalty should be increased because the defendant got away with murder when he won the appeal.
I know there are law students/lawyers on this site, and I may be wrong, but I don’t think so. I have said this here before and I will say it again now, “Sir, I am no fancy big city lawyer…. cluck”. This just seems like common sense to me.
On the other hand we are talking about the NCAA and anything is possible. But if we do win the appeal and they come back at us with stiffer penalties, I would support taking the matter to court and making it a issue for the legal system to sort out. But again, I don’t think it will ever get to that point.
Just my one cents worth as I see things through my garnet and gold coke bottom glasses.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
I agree with your legal analogy
Except that the NCAA doesn’t have to play by the same rules as the regular U.S. legal system.
I don’t know if they can go ahead an impose a new penalty after their original penalty got vacated, and I don’t know much about NCAA “legal” procedure.
However, what we are dealing with is analagous to an error applying the punishment. It seems the COI could say, try again with a new sentence, in accordance with the guidelines we are instructing you to follow. The logical conclusion from that, if vacation isn’t appropriate, is that additional scholarships would be taken instead. I’m not a criminal lawyer, but if a judge erroneously departed from madatory sentencing guidelines, I suppose a court could revese the sentence and remand it for a new determination in accordance with the guidelines.
Good points but l believe adding on additional punishment to someone who wins a appeal
would undermine the whole appeal process and would circumvent the process.
Again though, we’re talking about the NCAA. But IMO this will be a moot point.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
It would not be adding so much as substituting...
They’re holding Coach Bowden’s beloved wins hostage and FSU may be willing to pay in future scholarships to get those wins back.
Either way, the damage here isn’t the final imposed penalty so much as the constant news cycle. Politicians know that in this country you just apologize and move on. If you deny or argue, it only makes it worse. It’s like struggling in a briar patch.
by coonhound on Jun 18, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
TK speaks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am481o8K5HA
Sounds like even if the NCAA holds up its original ruling they plan to take it to court. The media is loving this.
“FSU to announce next step”
“FSU delays announcement”
“FSU expected to announce today”
“FSU announces”
“President comments about announcement”
“Rumor is there will be more announcements to come”
(repeat)
Court?
Really? FSU really needs to drop this. Its only going to make them look sillier and can really destroy your recruiting…i know BB’s record is a big deal but at some point you just got to stop. Heck i was pissed when i heard Bama is appealing the textbook ruling….
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
I would be curious to hear what the players, past and current, really think about this when the camera is not on them. I obviously have no clue how it feels to be in their position but I have participated in athletics and in this case I would not give a damn about what “official records” said in terms of wins and losses. I would know who we beat on who we lost to because I was there and that is all that would matter. Anyone who really cared about the wins and losses in the end would probably also know about this whole thing and the vacating of the wins anyways and would know FSU won such and such games that year. For current players I would see how a few individuals seemed content to drag this on and hurt the future of the program just for some stupid record that Bowden will not get anyway barring Paterno dying sometime before this season.
I don’t think for a second any team we beat is like yess now we get to say we didn’t lose to FSU that year, all those players know they got beat.
This is about Bowden and TK plain and simple, and its pathetic that after all his successes and the huge amount of money he has been paid that he and a few other people around him can’t see how his “legacy”, record or not, is getting tarnished by things like this and not whether he has a wins record. The athletes cheated and they got caught so just take your punishment, which was not that bad, and move on.
"No, like I said, Woo peed on my rug" - The Dude
by Surfanole on Jun 19, 2009 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
thats why most
people feel that the ncaa forcing teams to “vacate” wins in the first place is just plain silly. It does little damage to teams and does even less to stop those cheaters from doing it again. THe only real punishment that holds merit is post season bans and loss of scholly’s.
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
Perhaps the only good thing about this is
that Bobby has been quoted as saying that he is in a race with JoPa and wants to win. This should shut up even the biggest BB Kool Aid Drinkers that think he is still coaching for the kids or the university.
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