Ponder: An Elite Quarterback?
Recent debate has taken place on this web site about the caliber of Christian Ponder as a quarterback. Some argue that he already possesses the talent to be an elite level player, similar to a Colt McCoy or a Sam Bradford. Others argue that he is developing this talent and just needs more experience to hone his skills. Still others decide not to drink this delicous Kool-Aid and argue that he will never rise to the elite level.
A guy I work with has a little saying. He says, "Without data you are just another person with an opinion." I know everyone has their own opinion about CP7. Despite a somewhat rocky start to our season, I think most would agree that our man under center is a bad @$$. As my friend at work would remind me, without data to prove this claim, I'd be just another guy with an opinion. In this post, I will make a data driven decision regarding the legitimacy of Ponder stepping up to the elite ranks and becoming a Heisman contender.
Ponder has thrown for career high yardage in back-to-back weeks. This certainly indicates that his passing game is improving, but I think that a sample set of two games is too small to draw any meaningful conclusions from. We have a whole season of data from 2008, Ponder's first year as FSU's starting QB. As a basis of comparison, I will compare Ponder's first year performance in 2008 to the first year performances of two proven elite level QBs: Oklahoma's Sam Bradford (2007) and Texas's Colt McCoy (2006).
First, let's take a look at the passing efficiencies of McCoy in 2006, Bradford in 2007, and Ponder in 2008. The following plot is a box plot (aka box &whiskers plot) of passing efficiencies of these 3 QB's first year performances:
via i26.tinypic.com
Here's a little stats 101 review of what this box plot is showing: This box plot is a visual representation of the passer efficiencies these QBs posted during their first seasons as starting QBs. The top of the box is the third quartile (Q3, meaning 75% of the observations are less than or equal to this value). The middle line is the median (meaning that 50% of the observations are less than or equal to this value.) The bottom of the box is the first quartile (Q1, meaning that 25% of the observations are less than or equal to this value). The whiskers extend to the upper and lower limits.
Upper limit = Q3 + 1.5(Q3-Q1)
Lower limit = Q1 -1.5(Q3-Q1)
The asterisks represent outliers, or unusual observations. For example, the * for McCoy was the Texas A&M game in 2006 where McCoy posted a passer efficiency of 36.9.
Now then, on the surface, it is evident that Ponder generally posted a lower passer efficiency in his first year than Bradford or McCoy. Ponder's median passer efficiency is 72. McCoy's is 118.8. Bradford's is 119.35. That's not to say Ponder didn't have his moments. His upper limit of passer efficiency is 143.6 (when he torched Western Carolina for 196 yards and 3 TDs). His general lower passer efficiencies could be attributable to the fact that he was playing behind the youngest offensive line in the country. It could be attributable to the fact that he was somewhat uneasy about taking the leadership position from former QB Drew Weatherfood. However, I will argue that there are other factors at work here.
Adjusted efficiencies are discussed in depth on this website. Please see http://bcftoys.blogspot.com/2009/01/final-fei-ratings.html for information.
Ponder faced much more efficient defenses than either Bradford or McCoy. Let's look at another box plot. This time, it is a box plot of the adjusted defensive efficiency (ADE) rankings of these QBs' opponents.
via i32.tinypic.com
Roughly speaking, the median ADE rank that Ponder faced is roughly equal to the first quartile ADE rank that both McCoy and Bradford faced! Ponder faced opponents with a median ADE rank of 44. Comparatively, McCoy faced opponents with a median ADE rank of 70, and Bradford faced opponents with a median ADE rank of 56. Ponder's opponents' first quartile ADE rank was 14. This means that 25% of his opponents had ADE rankings less than or equal to 14! Comparatively, McCoy's opponents' first quartile ADE rank was 40.5, and Bradford's opponents' first quartile ADE rank was 35. Needless to say, Ponder consistently faced much more talented defenses week in and week out than either McCoy or Bradford.
What type of impact did this have on these QBs' passer efficiecies? It turns out that there is a very distinct trend here. All 3 QBs posted higher passer efficiencies against teams with lower ADE rankings. Below is a scatter plot with trend lines (ordinary least squares regression models). The x-axis is ADE rank, and the y-axis is the passer efficiency. Each point represents a game. The green points and green line represents Ponder's results. The black points and black line represent Bradford's results. The red points and red line represent McCoy's results.
via i25.tinypic.com
Here are some key take-aways from this analysis.
- None of these QBs were immune to efficient defenses in their first season (hence the pronounced slopes in each of the trend lines). Ponder faced a lot more challenging defenses week in and week out. Because of this, he had a lot more opportunities to prove himself (and possibly mess up) against very efficient defenses than McCoy or Bradford did. In some cases, Ponder didn't do much worse than McCoy or Bradford. For example, his performances against Clemson (ADE rank = 12, Passer Efficiency = 72) and Virginia Tech (ADE rank = 16, Passer Efficiency = 102.7) were not all that different than McCoy's performance against Ohio State (ADE rank = 7, Passer Efficiency = 69) or Bradford's performance against West Virginia (ADE rank = 14, Passer Efficiency = 93.2). Ponder faced 5 teams with an ADE rank less than or equal to 20. Compare that to McCoy's 2 or Bradford's 1. Had Bradford or McCoy consistently faced teams with an ADE rank below 20 like Ponder did, would they have been able to perform exceptionally and consistently? Probably not.
- To my point above, let's quantify this uncertainty. What if McCoy and Bradford faced more efficient defenses like Ponder did? Let's compare a 95% confidence interval for these three regression models. A confidence interval is an interval estimate of a parameter that quantifies uncertainty in a measurement. Against a team with an ADE rank of 20, Ponder's 95% confidence interval on passer efficiency is (29.5, 83.11). The width of this interval is 53.61. This means we are 95% confident that Ponder would have posted a passer efficiency between 29.5 and 83.11 against a team with an ADE rank of 20. Bradford's 95% CI on passer efficiency is (62.7, 127.0). The width of this interval is 64.3. McCoy's 95% CI on passer efficiency is (49.8, 118.1). The width of this interval is 68.3. A good chunk of Ponder's more narow confidence interval overlaps McCoy's and Bradford's wider intervals (these intervals are wider because there aren't as many observations around 20 ADE ranked teams as for Ponder's data set). It is statistically likely and fair to say that Ponder would perform nearly as well as McCoy or Bradford against a top 20 ADE ranked team. In all fairness, he probably wouldn't have performed quite as well in terms of passer efficiency. However, it is also fair to say he wouldn't have performed significantly differently either (because of the overlap in confidence intervals).
- On the other end of the spectrum, Ponder starts to close the gap with McCoy and Bradford, posting gaudy passer efficiencies against non-ranked Western Carolina and Chattanooga (the right-most green dots).
- I don't think that passer efficiency takes into account running the ball. As we all know, one of Ponder's major strengths is that he is a mobile QB. Last year he rushed for 423 yards and 4 TDs. Compare that to Bradford's 7 yards and 0 TDs in 2007 and McCoy's 170 yards and 2 TDs in 2006.
Conclusion:
Ponder has all the tools, intelligence, and natural ability of an elite level quarterback. In his first two games this year, he posted passer ratings of 129.99 and 140.62, respectively. ESPN is projecting him to throw for a dazzling 3,708 yards this year. Check out this link:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=183733
In his debut season, he didn't perform quite as well in terms of passer efficiency as two proven QBs did in their debut seasons (McCoy 06 and Bradford 07). However, he did face a lot more talented defenses. When you take this into account, it is statistically likely that he would have performed nearly as well as these two QBs in terms of passer efficiency. In terms of rushing yardage, Ponder was much more of a threat than either McCoy or Bradford were in their debut seasons. Ponder has proven that he has elite potential. Now is the time for him to demostrate elite skill consistently week-to-week.
Our offense is only going to continue to improve this year and next year. This offensive progression will only make it easier and easier for Ponder to shine. I am confident that Ponder will get the national recognition he deserves very soon. PONDER FOR HEISMAN IN 2010!!!
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I'm taking Statistics this semester
and we have a test Tuesday on every one of these concepts and how to apply them.
I believe it is now safe to say that Tomahawk Nation could be the best study tool I have ever had.
by freshcollegeboy on Sep 18, 2009 1:13 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Look for an upcoming basketball article with multiple regression analysis on the impact of pace on a team's success.
www.Tomahawknation.com
Statistics
I suggest you try my method as I had to take statistics many years ago. I attended the first day, mid term and final, three times. I looked over old tests from the frat files and tried to gauge whether or not the correct answer would fall according to A. B. C. D. E. in regard to how the question was worded. I beat the profs using statistics.
I looked around the large auditorium of over 100 people and decided my best shot was to forget the formulas and shoot for a D in statistics which I fortunately received and direct my attention to other courses which actually made sense to me.
Playstation All American, right again!
TomahawkNation
Better to bear the rebuke of the wise than to hear the song of fools
I also received a D-the third time I took it.
The first time it was a 8 AM class in the winter term and it interfered with my playing Jai Alai at Big Bend Jai Alai in Quincy during the week nights, so I dropped it after a couple of weeks.
The second time I couldn’t get into because the teacher was a dick, so I dropped it again.
The third time was when I was getting close to graduating and it was the only class I needed it to complete 2 out of my 3 majors in business. I was working full time at Gov Square and I just barely squeaked by, but I didn’t care about the grade, I just needed to pass.
I consider myself a fairly intelligent person, but I had a hell of time with this class for some reason.
This was the Wake Forest of my college career.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
i think he has elite level potential
he has the weapons to throw to and he has the mobility to get them tebow type rushing yards and td’s.
this year i think will be the stepping block most definitely, but next year, i truly think he would have to be an early heisman canidate right?
"theres two types of people in this world, those who CARRY a spear and those who FEAR the spear"-James Coley
Agreed
I wouldn’t be surprised to see a Christian Ponder vs. Jacory Harris showdown for the Heisman next year.
thinkin the same thing
i could see a ponder vs harris showdown in the acccg next season, winner being in the heisman run.
i checked out that link tho for his projected stats, and it has him at 12tds, i think he’ll have way more than that.
"theres two types of people in this world, those who CARRY a spear and those who FEAR the spear"-James Coley
Those stats
are just his current season average applied to the whole season.
They also project Jermaine Thomas to rush for a whopping 108 yds this season, because he has only rushed for 18 yds. in 2 games.
by freshcollegeboy on Sep 18, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
yea i know
im just tryin to show that projections cant be trusted.
i think yardage wise its definitely close, td wise i see christian in the low to mid 20’s this year (26-28 would be a high optimistic number for me)
with next year (having fortson,reed and taiwan being juniors as a solid nucleus) to be in the 30 td range.
"theres two types of people in this world, those who CARRY a spear and those who FEAR the spear"-James Coley
Nice job.
I think Ponder is potentially an elite QB. Great running ability. Strong arm.
However, I’m concerned with his accuracy. Most experts say that accuracy is one aspect that really doesn’t change for QB’s. Either you’re born with it or you’re not. Based on past performance, Ponder looks to be in the 55-57% completion range. That’s not great. Now, I don’t know how a bad pass-pro o-line affects accuracy, but I’m sure it has to have some negative effect.
He’s looked much more accurate in the first 2 games this year. So, hopefully, it was just that he didn’t have time to throw.
Good point
His accuracy is much improved so far this year. He has been quoted as saying that last year he used to look to one target, and if the target wasn’t open he would look to scramble. This year, he is seeing the field much better and nailing his targets. I am confident he’ll be able to keep this up. This weekend will be a good indicator of whether he can or cannot sustain this for the rest of the season.
Just playing devil's advocate but . . .
We COULD make the argument that he is extremely accurate. He rarely misses, and many times we constitute an interception or dropped pass (with fault on WR) as a “miss” or an incomplete pass. Therefore we could argue that many of these “misses” are not actually misses, but they are balls thrown EXACTLY where Ponder meant to throw them. It may not have been the best decision (int) or an outside force could change the outcome (dropped pass), but the point is he threw it where he wanted the ball to be, meaning he COULD be UNBELIEVABLY accurate, just the numbers don’t show it.
Not unlike a kicker who is 12 for 20 on the year. Doesn’t look very good on the surface, but if you really dig deep and see he had a terrible line which allowed 8 blocked FG’s, you realize that given the right situation, you could be sitting on a star.
by freshcollegeboy on Sep 18, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure, but would WR mistakes amount to 10%+ difference in completion %? I don't know.
ie. the difference between an average QB and an elite QB
I don't think this equals 10%, but I can think of at least 6 or 7 passes in the first 2 games
where Ponder threw it to where the rec was supposed to be (at least 3 vs. UM)
or
where the rec dropped a catchable pass (like the last one he threw against UM).
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
There were a couple of passes that J-man should have caught in the EZ
he would have had that jump ball had he not waited for it to come to him
Accuracy in first three games
Here is Ponder’s completion % in the first 3 games:
Miami: 58.5%
Jax State: 62.9%
BYU: 80.8%
This is interesting. I saw a lot of short, high % passes in the BYU game to allow FSU’s more athletic players to make plays against BYU’s less athletic players. Ponder picked up 195 yards in the air attack. Comparatively, Miami’s defense forced FSU to prove they could open the field up with longer passes. FSU responded well (Ponder picked up 294 yards in the air), but his completion % was only 58.5%.
My point is that “accuracy” is difficult to measure. Short, high % passes make for a higher completion %, but fewer yards gained through the air. Longer, high risk/high reward plays can make for more yards, but can lower completion %. Also, success on these plays is just as dependent on the receiver’s ability to catch as it is the QB’s ability to throw.
Bradford and McCoy did not play behind a freshman offensive line their first year.
How does that compute?
It simply forces me back to square one and square one is Ponder has been evaluated by Fisher and pronounced NFL grade.
Playstation All American, right again!
TomahawkNation
Better to bear the rebuke of the wise than to hear the song of fools
Another good point.
This sounds like a possible shift in the mean. You can visualize it this way: Had Ponder played behind an OL that had more reasonable pass protection last year, his green trend line in my plot above would likely shift up closer to the trend lines of McCoy and Bradford. Another reason that Ponder has elite talent/potential.
Another mean (average) shifter.
In addition to the inexperienced OL, I mentioned in the post that the “discomfort factor” Ponder dealt with taking the leadership role away from Weatherford may have negatively impacted his performance. Had he felt more comfortable taking the reigns, the green line may have shifted up the y-axis, too.
Great post! I'm terrible with statistics but
could you come up with a constant that expressed the relation between the passer rating and the ADE of the defense faced? I.e., perhaps there is a constant for McCoy, one for Bradford and one for Ponder. Who would be the best on that standard? I may be saying this completely wrong. Maybe its not a constant, but a ratio or something. I think you get my drift. Perhaps Ponder is comparable to others. Another interesting comparison is Ponder and Carson Palmer in his first full year starting. You probably saw my post this summer about Ponder.
I think I know what you're getting at here.
There isn’t a constant or a ratio.
You’re looking for the equations that express the relationship between the paser rating and ADE Opponent Rank. These equations are the models (trend lines) that you see on the plot above. Here they are:
Ponder:
Passing Efficiency = 34.6 + 0.746 * ADE Opponent Rank
McCoy:
Passing Efficiency = 78.5 + 0.551 * ADE Opponent Rank
Bradford:
Passing Efficiency = 86.4 + 0.438 * ADE Opponent Rank
In reference to the term "mean shift" above.
What I mean is an increase in the intercept term in the above equations. Fore example, if Ponder had been playing behind an experienced OL that could pass protect, then perhaps the intercept term in his equation would have been 44.6 rather than 34.6, shifting his trend line up the y-axis.
MKE
This is a good post. This turned out even better than I expected. I’m glad you took the time to put this together.
This is excellent work.
I am glad that we are now moving ever closer to being able to quantify performance relative to competition. Think of racing. What if I said
I just ran a 7 minute!
I would really like to know IN WHAT RACE?? But in football, many fail to ask this question.
Again this is great work.
MKE this is really great. I really love the stats
Personally, I would do a little more anaysis (conclusion/discussion) to bring it down to a lot of people’s level but this is awesome stuff, and many of us appreciate it very much.
Thanks for the kind words!
Thanks also for all that YOU do! I always love coming to the site to learn about our ’Noles. You guys do AMAZING things here!






























