Processing the Results: Florida State's Offense v. USF's Defense
NOTE: While I know that everyone expects a huge Bowden rant, you won't get that today. I've shared my concerns for over a year now and had done so long before I was blessed with this public forum from which I can share my views. I will give a quick synopsis, however. Bowden has crippled this program for almost a decade. His selfish actions have stifled every attempt FSU has made at progress. The university has placated him at every bogus request. Bowden doesn't care about FSU, but only about himself and his family. He doesn't care about making FSU great. I'm sort of numb to it now, but those inside the program who were once staunchly silent are finally fed up and are sharing what really goes on inside the program with people they'd formerly never even consider speaking. Bowden's house of cards could finally come crashing down if some things don't change. I have no idea why this loss was the one to push folks over the top. I wish they would have seen the light much earlier and it makes me really question how much some of the big players care about Bowden more than the football program until it became a completely untenable position to hold. They can, however, still cause the change this program has required for nine years. I really wish he would let Jimbo Fisher do his job because right now Bowden is interfering with playcalling and day to day operations much more than I realized. It's safe to say that everything Bowden does is counterproductive to the short and long-term health of the football program because it is taking away a decision making opportunity from someone who is actually informed enough to make a qualified decision. Florida State cannot be above "good" because they have no leadership structure. The best coaches on the staff are consistently overruled on important decisions by the absolute worst coaches who band together against the coaches who will actually be at Florida State when Bowden leaves. Florida State has the worst current head coach in the country, and they are paying him 2.5 Million dollars. And then he had the gall to laugh off the loss in the most embarrassing post-game press conference I have ever seen. Don't expect different results unless you have a reason behind the changed expectations.
I am calling this series "Processing the Results" because results are only repeatable if the process justifies them. The defensive review will be up later tonight.
| Good Process | Poor Process | |
| Good Result | Result Justified, good indicator of future performance. | Team was lucky , future poor process unlikely to yield similar good results. |
| Bad Result | Team was unlucky, future good process unlikely to yield similar bad results. | Result Justified, good indicator of future performance. |
So my goal in these will be to determine whether FSU's result justified their "process" (aka how they played). Anyone can just say "14 points, great defense", or "7 points, bad offense." They might be right, but I would like to make sure they are correct.
Let's start by pointing out something. The run game was bad, but it wasn't nearly as bad as some think it was. The box score says FSU had 27 runs for 19 yards. That is just not true. FSU had 22 runs for 63 yards. the box score didn't lie, but you have to know what to look for, and the discrepancy comes from sacks. Sacks are the result of a failed pass play. They aren't a run play and shouldn't be included in run plays when judging the efficacy of a rushing attack.
In the same vien, the passing game was not 25-37 for 269 yards, 7.3 per pass play. That's an incomplete picture. They really ran 42 pass plays for 224 yards, of 5.4 yards per play.
| Traditional Box Score | Smart Box Score | |
| Rushing Plays | 27 | 22 |
| Rushing Yards | 19 (0.7) | 63 (2.9) |
| Pass Pays | 37 | 42 |
| Passing Yards | 269 (7.2) | 226 (5.4) |
From here on out, I won't acknowledge people who continue to reference the run game as gaining 0.7 yards per carry. It's completely disingenuous after being presented with this information. I am not going to ban those who do, but if they cite that heavily flawed measure, I will ignore their argument.
Quarterback Play
I thought Christian Ponder played very well, given the circumstances, outside of the screen game (see below). His MCL injury was worse than anyone at FSU would publicly admit. The press-releases done by FSU sports information have been easily cracked. If the star QB isn't listed, he's injured and didn't practice. It happened last year and also the year before. Ponder did not practice Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday, as I suspected. I have heard various reports on Ponder already this week. Some said he looked good in practice today and his knee is getting better, but there's also a nasty rumor that he injured his other knee Saturday and is considering season ending surgery. Keep in mind that I do not believe the second rumor, but is is absolutely something to keep an eye on.
Two of the plays Ponder made that impressed me most were actually not successful. The first was the 42 yard bomb he threw to Fortson while jumping and falling out of bounds. That's NFL arm strength, something he did not show last year. Unfortunately, a phantom holding call on Datko wiped it out. The other play was the long throw to Goodman that Rich dropped. Really nice escapability and again, he made a difficult contorted throw, on the money, with a bum knee. Goodman was initially interfered with but he absolutely must make that catch. It was a blown opportunity.
I discussed the screen game below, and thought the quick and screen game was the area of the passing game in which he showed his injury the most. He was excellent on his non-screen throws, however, and part of the screen stuff is clearly not on him.
When the protection was there, he was great. The screen game was not great, and FSU didn't block the quick game worth a damn, but man oh man was the dropback game good when the protection was there. I thought he threw some great balls into tight coverage. It's an encouraging sign that Ponder doesn't have to be super mobile to be a very good QB.
I can't put the fumble on him. It was a complete blown backside protection.
USF clearly didn't respect his ability to run. On the bootleg on the goal line, he had a walk-in touchdown. Normal Ponder runs that ball in and puts FSU up 7-0. Instead, he threw it to Reliford after hesitating and it was tipped away. I also thought you could see some evidence of the injury in the play-action fakes, which weren't nearly as crisp as normal.
I know that some believe the Offensive Line is only good with a mobile quarterback. I think it can help but that it is not a necessity. I did not like some of the choices to use the Pistol, which I believe only works with the QB as a backside run threat, and Ponder just did not pull it and run, so USF didn't respect it. He was used only only two designed run plays- an option keeper and a qb draw. They were both early and I think Fisher did them to make USF think about accounting for them.
Nice job staying patient against conservative zone coverage
Finding a way to attack cover-3. I have to give FSU props for having a consistent play they can go to against cover-3. It's the all-curl from the 2WR 2TE (balanced) alignment. Teams throw a lot of 8 in the box against that, which means FSU will probably see cover-3 much of the time, and they really do a nice job throwing the all-curl. FSU ran this play 6 or 7 times and every time Ponder delivered the ball on the money, as soon as the wideout turned around, and with quality velocity.
Screen and Quick Game Ineffective
FSU threw 13 screens and netted 52 yards. That's really poor- 4 yards per screen pass (pass, not completion). On non-screen passes, FSU gained 9.1 yards per pass (not completion, per pass). Considering that FSU ran only 64 plays, those 13 screens represent almost 20% of the plays called. I'm not saying not to run them, or to run them less, because FSU is typically a great screen team, but they did not run them well last game.
The timing was really off in the screen game. The offensive line did a poor job directing the defense where to go, Ponder was not accurate on the screens (very uncharacteristic, one of the reasons we knew he was off). In particular, he struggled throwing them to his right. That's something to watch for in the coming weeks. The backs and wideouts also did a poor job of giving it away too early.
FSU also struggled in the quick game, surrendering two crushing sacks and allowing Ponder to be hit three other times. I don't get this. USF's DLine played great, but seriously, FSU has to block that better. This has me baffled. The Noles are typically a great quick pass team.
Running Backs
Ty Jones didn't run well. Against BYU he had to bounce a lot of stuff because his read dictated he do so, but this week he seems to expect to bounce to the outside even when the play didn't call for it. Jones missed holes, was only so-so in pass pro, and wasn't the runner we've seen him be. I wonder if the other run schemes are messing him up (see below)? Honestly, he has to score on the 2nd down and goal play. It's right there for him. The bottom line is that Jones is not a dancer and if he pulls a repeat of Saturday, he will be benched.
Jermaine Thomas showed his old style on the 1st quarter run from shotgun with a little over 4 minutes to go. FSU needs to run the zone plays, as I discuss below. I expect him to get a lot more touches.
I was not impressed with Chris Thompson. He missed a hole on a big 3rd and 1 and doesn't understand the scheme yet, it appears. Great kid though and a true talent. The missed 3rd down didn't matter because of a penalty, but it definitely was discussed in film session.
Tavares Pressley didn't have the ball from Ponder on the handoff. Still, I believe he's not ready. It should be Jermaine and Jones, in some order, 90% of the time.
End the Lonnie Pryor Fullback Expiriment
This isn't working. The talent must be utilized better. Don't have a fullback? Run with Two tight ends. The Dallas Cowboys are leading the league in rushing and they rarely use a fullback. Lonnie runs hard. He's a great Seminole, a great kid, and a lifelong fan. But he is a terrible blocking fullback. Putting him in the backfield with a running back allowed USF to have a numerical advantage against run plays without devoting an extra man (I know that doesn't make any sense, but just think about what I am saying for a minute, and you'll get it). Might as well just play with 10 and not 11 guys. He doesn't block anyone. I understand that he isn't ready to play tailback because he's not yet cut out to be a zone runner, but the fullback stuff needs to stop.I don't know why FSU is playing Pryor at fullback. The two-tight end alignment with no full-back is much better and I am disappointed that FSU didn't use that more. It created some spacing issues for USF that the I-formation did not.
Called a bunch of run plays, but checked out of a bunch due to the look.
Wide Receivers
Definitely not their best week. 3 fumbles. Give USF some credit for hitting and hitting. Also USF got away with a lot of downfield contact, but these guys need to just play tougher as a unit. It was a better week with only one major drop, though it was very costly.
I expect Bert Reed to steal a lot of playing time from Rod Owens after this week. Owens did not run good routes like he typically does. Bert did. Bert sat down in zone coverage, caught everything Ponder threw at him, and made plays. Owens cost the team bit with a drop and of course the crippling fumble. Bert played his best game.
Taiwan Easterling did not have a good game either and his fumble simply can't happen. I was disappointed in Easterling and Owens, typically FSU's best route runners, for their lack of focus.
Jarmon Fortson and Richard Goodman had up and down days. Fortson had two nice runs and a beautiful TD catch called back. But we must remember that while fumbles aren't random, fumble recovery/loss is random. It is random. It is random. Not a repeatable skill or result. The only thing a player can control is if he fumbles, not what happens after he fumbles, so Fortson also falls into the group of fumblers. He gets no pass from me for having it fall out of bounds, though he did have it in the correct arm. Fortson also had a major mental lapse in the 3rd quarter and Fisher tore him up on the sidelines.
Goodman dropped a crucial touchdown pass but other than that played decently. I caught him running maybe 1 or 2 lazy routes, but for the most part he was very good.
Line Thoughts
I'm disappointed in them as a group. 5 sacks isn't acceptable, and there were two other plays where Ponder did a remarkable job to escape considering his condition. This was the worst pass protection I have seen in a long time. The run game was similarly disorganized. They really seemed to lack communication.
USF did a great job defeating cut blocks. These guys were really well coached, and are very talented. I have my doubts about other parts of USF's team, but their defensive line is very good. USF's coaches got the most out of their talent. They played in control for the most part.
USF didn't stunt and twist up front a ton, but when they did, FSU's offensive linemen looked clueless. That's the first time I've seen FSU not be able to handle stunts and twists completely. Sure, they were dominated on some other plays, but watching this tape is painful. Of particular concern was the right side, where Sanderson and Spurlock didn't seem to get it at all.
I want to give a lot of credit to #90 Pierre Paul who dominated Sanderson/Sanders and played the game of his life. He's a better player than Selvie. That's one of the better defensive lines in football and they really came to play. It was their super bowl. In the same vein, I wonder if FSU's offense is hurt because the defense they face in practice is so poor. One person I talked with said some of USF's backups would start over FSU's defensive linemen, and all of the starters would start over the Noles guys. If the starting team is that bad, the backups FSU's offensive line faces in practice probably isn't giving them anything approximating a realistic look.
I also heard that Trickett told reporters he messed up and didn't have his guys properly prepared. It was refreshing to hear a coach take responsibility for his actions. He also apparently said that he would have them really ready for Boston College.
Individual Line Performances
Inconsistent holding calls. Left Tackle Datko definitely held Selvie a few times, but I think the two he was flagged for were not worthy of a flag. He didn't play his best game. Selvie clearly has motivation issues and doesn't play hard every game, but he really brought it Saturday. I wonder if it was smart to schedule a talented but erratic team with inconsistent motivational issues, which would definitely get up for a huge game against the Noles?
Left Guard Hudson had a great day. They did a decent job of keeping McClain (best DT) away from him. He did blow the cut block on the first drive on 1st down after the Piurowski 1st down catch, and had a whiff on an outside run player later on, but he was our best offensive lineman (as usual). The Chop Block between him and Datko was really ticky-tack, but if you watch, FSU actually had a really egregious chop on the same play between Sanderson and Spurlock.
Center Ryan McMahon continues to be just okay. I'm not as high on him as most. He just isn't a good player. I don't like having to scheme around the center, but most teams regard their center as their weakest link.
Right Guard David Spurlock is strong and aggressive and sometimes out of control. Flat whiffed on some 2nd level blocks and they abused him with run blitzes.
Backup Right Tackle Rhonnie Sanderson played most of the game. I liked some of what I saw against him but USF's defensive end (not the All-American) had a field day with him in pass protection. He's a valuable asset as a backup to both the guard and tackle positions and could definitely be a really nice starter if someone went down to injury, but Zebrie Sanders is the better player. Unless Sanders was injured, I am disappointed in Trickett playing Sanderson. The miscommunication between Sophomore Spurlock and Freshman Sanderson definitely caused some trouble, in particular dealing with the twists and stunts. Still, Sanders had two crucial missed blocks. The one everyone will point to is on FSU's last play of the game. He absolutely has to get his cut block on USF's #94, and he didn't do it. There's simply no excuse. He just lunged. That's a designed quick pass and FSU is trading the possibility of a long play for what should be a guaranteed 2 1/2 seconds of pocket protection. It didn't happen and Ponder never had a chance. As I said above, USF did a great job having their guys ready for the cut blocks. Maybe they practiced this all the time they were playing the cupcake teams?
Why schedule this game?
As I wrote yesterday, FSU should have never scheduled this game and Athletic Director Randy Spetman should lose his job for setting up this ridiculous schedule. He is not qualified to be an athletic director at a football school, was a lap-dog hire by President T.K. Wetherell, and shouldn't have any long-term future here. This scheduling of west-coast teams also needs to end. If a west coast team wants to play FSU, fine, have them come here and do not reciprocate with a return trip. They'll still go for it. It's unrealistic to expect a football team to be up for every game of the season. It just doesn't happen at any school. Try to tell yourself different, but you are just wrong. The solution is to play enough games for a respectable schedule (UF, Miami every year, and at least 5 other bowl teams does the trick). The three other non-conference games must be guaranteed wins, because they reduce the chance for a team to have a loss in an expected letdown game. Scheduling games where FSU has to get up to win that they don't have to play should never be done. BYU should not have been done and USF definitely shouldn't have been done. Do what other schools do, play one solid out of conference game (UF, done), and then schedule to put yourself in the most advantageous position to win the ACC. It's foolishness. Again, I'd like anyone to show me how Randy Spetman is qualified to be AD. Dave Hart is light years better and is about to be handed the keys to Alabama. I'm really not happy that T.K. went on a wild goose chase to remove Hart and exposed an academic scandal that happens everywhere but would never be reported because no school (outside of FSU) would be dumb enough to report themselves or uncover the extra help.
USF did a great job bringing the run blitzes, particularly in short yardage. I think they picked up on a tendency of Jimbo that I might have missed: not much play-action on short yardage downs. Granted, I like running in short yardage, and hate when teams get cute, but play-action needs to happen once in a while (not against USF necessarily, but in previous games to at least show it). The bootleg would work very well there, though with Ponder's mobility, FSU probably didn't want to risk it.
Please stick with the zone blocking.
I don't know if this is all correct, but some things are bothering me here. I don't fully understand the blocking scheme now. Last year, FSU did a great job as a zone running scheme. It's Rick Trickett's forte. I wrote about this in the off-season. It's what the personnel is built to do. But right now I am not seeing it enough. It's not that enough run plays aren't being called. I'm told that they are in fact, but that Ponder checked out of them against certain looks, as he is supposed to do. No, I think the problem is that FSU isn't running a high enough percentage of their run plays as zone runs. FSU has great zone personnel and needs to do a better job staying comitted to it. I am seeing way too much non-zone stuff right now for my taste. Too many pulling guards (which USF exploited to perfection, by the way, sending run fit blitzes and some twists at really opportune times, shutting down FSU in short yardage almost completely). I particularly don't like the the off-tackle stuff with the pulling guard. It's not that it is a bad play. It's that it takes away the opportunity to run a better play (either inside or outside zone). And of course, if FSU is running that in a game, they are having to use practice time on it, which isn't what I think they should be doing. It means the backs get less opportunities to run in the zone scheme. I noted above that Ty Jones played a bad game, and I have to wonder if they are putting too much on his plate, or any of the backs. Stick with the inside and outside zone plays. Running the toss play once in a while (stuffed every time this year, as FSU doesn't run it very well) is okay, but the primary runs need to be inside and outside zone. I wonder if Fisher is trying to get away from this and get back to more of what he did at LSU. His schemes are solid, but sticking with the zone runs and ditching the other stuff is the right call here in my opinion due to personnel and proven success (last year, best rushing attack in the ACC). Or could it be that Coach Bowden is calling for these out of sequence plays?? (wink). Any time FSU runs a non inside-outside zone play, and run some other inside run play, is a lost opportunity to run the best play.
This was a particular problem down on the goal line sequence. I was totally fine with the first play. Ponder needs to just run the ball in. He walks in on the bootleg with Hudson out there blocking. Instead he was tentative and threw a pass that was batted away. But the 2nd and 4th down plays really annoyed me. Stop all the pulling guard nonsense and stick with what you do well. Instead, FSU pulls guards on both plays and doesn't score. Also, on the 2nd play, Lonnie Pryor shows why he isn't a fullback. I absolutely hated the fullback dive call and think it could have been Bowden interfering with Fisher again.
On FSU's 4th drive of the game (towards end of 2nd quarter), they ran the nice lead zone sweep from two-back shotgun, for 15 and 6 yards, both on 1st down.
I happen to think Fisher is an excellent coach, but I think he will make a much better head coach than an offensive coordinator. Everyone I know who has spoken to or worked with Tight Ends Coach James Coley has been blown away by his football acumen. He'll be the offensive coordinator under Jimbo when Fisher takes the head coaching position, and I think he'll be an upgrade over Fisher, who I think is very good. I just wish he would streamline the run game a bit, though i have my suspicions that coach Bowden is meddling here and demanding some of the toss plays and pulling guard plays. Information from those dissatisfied within the program is starting to flood out. There's no longer a trickle. People are angry that Coach Bowden is tarnishing their future and they are fed up. I expect more and more dirt to come out on Bowden in the coming weeks.
Unacceptable Risk Evaluation (much too conservative)
Finally, FSU needed to go for the 4th and 1 from the 43. Punting, no matter the resulting defensive series, is the incorrect move and I know that some inside the program are extremely unhappy with the call. That's a call made by the head man that directly hurts FSU's chances of winning. Going for it on 4th and goal from the 2 is also the right call, because of the expected points gained from the resulting poor field position for the offense (didn't happen, defense allowed 99 yard drive). On the 4th and 1 from the 43 FSU must trust the common sense approach and go.
Overall
Overall, I would give the offensive process about a C-, which is unacceptable, but the point total doesn't totally reflect how FSU's offense played. FSU's offensive players are generally well coached. They are put in position to make plays. While I've seen Fisher call a much better game, I am told that Bowden had his fingerprints all over this one, and some people with tickets right behind the bench say the offensive staff was visibly upset several times aftet Bowden tried to meddle in the offense. It's not acceptable for someone who is not involved in gameplanning or actual coaching to make the important decisions and then interject himself into playcalling. Between Bowden and the fumbles, there was no shot for any sort of rhythm. 7 points is not acceptable. I think Fisher is a very good OC. He's not the flat out best, but FSU needs to live with very good for another year as Fisher has the qualities of a great head coach in my opinion and he brings in great assistants.
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144 comments
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Comments
Excellent read
I know this isn’t the forum, but perhaps someone can start a blog or website for the flood of info you say is coming out. That way you stick to analysis and let the other sight put pressure on Bobby.
So from what I get out of this is
Dont blame the Offense as much as some are. Yes they played like crap at times but thats part of the game. Jimbo didnt call a good game and as a whole the offense went with the wrong stuff. Screens and Pro-I were not helping.
I thought our Slot 2rb Shotgun look (the pony) looked good for the most part. They ran option out of it a lot and it worked at first. Where ponder gave it to the RB and they both went one way.
Ponders play was good for the condition but if hes hurt his legs cant help us. I think EJ needs to come in a little to give ponder a brake and get a running QB thret on some plays. Not a whole game but I think 1 every 8 plays. unless ponder is picking the team apart for a long drive. Dont take momentum but there is so much more we can do.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
MA's fault the offense didn't execute?? Yeah, that makes sense.
by gonolesrolltide on Sep 29, 2009 7:22 AM EDT reply actions
Nope nope nope
Im not going to blame the MA because the Offense didnt execute. I beleave that the Def has to help out at least one game this year. I dont feel that they are. I cant expect the offense to win every game. They are going to have there problems. I think the Offense beat themselfs. We looked like OU vs BYU. We fumbled, flags, and just being banged up. What is Jimbo and the Offense going to do. Jimbo and the Offense can be both Offense and Def all year. MA and the Def has to stand up every now and then when the Offesne is not playing good and help out. Getting INT in garbage time dont count to me. If Our Def could get pressure on the QB 1 play every 5 or 6 pass plays what would that do. If we could stop the run from going 6+ yards to 3-4 yards. This is why I Blame MA. Because Jimbo cant and shouldnt be both Offense and Def for the Noles all year. (But thats what hes going to have to do)
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
The offense already got their free pass during the Jacksonville State game. So this has been two bad offensive games.
I think the whole team gets a pass for the Jax State game.
Defense has had guys running wide open every game. My post tomorrow will open your eyes, I think.
Wait, sarcasm or do you think I implied that?
by Bud Elliott on Sep 29, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
i think Des has gone over the edge.
He has OD’ed on the TN Brawndo.
OH YEAAHH!
by TBfisherman on Sep 29, 2009 1:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I have watched each game and I see one thing that hasnt changed.
the Def. Miami racked up a lot, Jax St looked good, BYU same thing and USF. I beleave JF is trying to take us in the right direction but you can only go as far as others will let you. Im not on crack I just cant blame the offense becaues If MA would have don a better job recruiting, If BB and co would get some better recruits or at least did there homework we might have something to work with.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
I agree whole-heartedly about Scheduling
Fire Spertman. FSumn is right on about scheduling anyteam but cupcakes out of conference. Playinh UF, Miami, Clemson, NC ans Boston College every year along with either Georgia Tech and Virginia Tech is tought enough. Again follow the path that the gaytors and texas follow, All cupcakes out of conference and limit your team to maybe 1 conference loss and you play in a BCS Bowl. Lets face it if you lose more than two games in conference then you are likely not good enough to win any difficult non conference games.
And as FSun states that it is difficult for these kids to have to be up for every game. Need to play cupcakes in between big games.
I would like to add something here.
Look at how UNC scheduling works to there favor.
Citadel then Conn
ECU then GT
UVA, GaSo, bye week and FSU on a thurs. after we play GT.
they get VT the next week with an extra practice.
Duke then miami,
BC and close with NCST
They dont have TRAP games they ahve cake games leading to Key games. But FSU. We have GT and then that Thurs UNC. Im going to have faith but drank to much Koolaid and let Nextlvl get to me with some spiked punch.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
4th and 1 on the 43
When I saw them punt on that play I immediately said to myself “This team has just given up”. Sad, really sad.
Now that I know that it may have been Bowden’s interference it all makes sense. The coach was giving up.
4th down
Bud, You’ve mentioned several times that statistically teams should go for more 4th downs. Could you explain that a little more? I understand the call to go for it 4th and goal from the 1, you’ll likely get the score and if not the opponent has to go 99 yards to score. However, what abou tthe call of 4th of 1 from say your opponents 43? why is it better in that situation to go for it rather than punt?
4th downs are picked up at a pretty high clip
The expected points created by the new set of downs and chance to gain even more field position generally outwieghs the expected points gained by punting and changing the field position in the offensive teams favor.
I don’t know if I explained that well. Bud can do it better.
make sense
That all makes sense, but there must be a tipping point somewhere. That’s what I’m most interested in. Obviously 4th and 10 on your own 20 you punt, but what about say 4th and 2 on the 50, or 4th and 4 on your oppontents 35?
It's been a long time since I read about it and looked at the numbers
Also depends on the score, and what change in point expectancy you need. But off the top of my head I would imagine 4th and 2 on the 50 everytime, and 4th and 4 on the Opp 35 would depend on the score and the placekicker, but outside that pretty much everytime. Its more than is intuitive, if you play the numbers.
Here you go
http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~dromer/papers/PAPER_NFL_JULY05_FORWEB_CORRECTED.pdf It’s pretty good, I would print it out.
by Bud Elliott on Sep 29, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s exactly what I’m talking about. I want 43 pages with formulas and economic models examining the decision of whether to go for it on 4th down or punt. (slight sarcasm, but not really, I’ll actually probably read over most of it).
A better question is who am I going to bill for the time I spend reading it????
well...you know how we roll
you probably shouldn’t have asked if you weren’t prepared for the answers :)
A punt from the 43
will result in either
1. a good punt that pins the opponent deep
2. a bad punt with a halfway decent return and the opponent ends up near where you punted from anyway, so why not go for it.
3. a really bad punt that is returned past where you punted from and possibly returned for a score, particularly with how poorly our special teams can play at times.
Not only that , but it does smack of giving up. My understanding is that 4th and short plays either keep the drive alive by making the yardage, or they result in a turnover on downs that gives the opponent only slightly better field position than they would have after the punt. It is completely different if you are deep in your own territory.
If they had made the 4th down conversion, they would have a good chance to get in field goal range with the new set of downs and at least give the D more rest.
If I may add a 4th probable result to your list. A punt from the 43 will probably roll into the end zone and the other
team gets the ball on their own 20, for a net difference of 23 yards in field position.
Our defense will probably give up 23 yards of field position within the next 3 plays, seriously.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
on a side note
Powell punted well on Sat, even if it would have been a better decision not to put him on the field.
OH YEAAHH!
by TBfisherman on Sep 29, 2009 1:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
More about that goal line 4th down
I agree that it was the right call to go for it on 4th there, but what I hated was the play calling sequence. The 1st down pass made no sense to me. I can see that on 2nd or 3rd down, but 1st? Spread them out and run it up the gut maybe?
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't." - General George S. Patton
I agree too.
Did you make the decision because of the expected point value in a defensive series starting on their own 1?
If so, something terrible has occured and we are agreeing way too much.
lol, no. My thinking doesn’t run that far ahead on Defense. My thinking there is more along the lines of The Offense should be able to move the ball two yards in four plays, or we suck. Turns out, we sucked. I’m not against going for it on 4th down at all, especially in enemy territory and considering our kicking game is completely inconsistent. Time to think outside the traditional coaching box.
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't." - General George S. Patton
Hopkins is killing me with his punching at the ball. That’s why everything is generally going to the right. Shouldn’t a coach correct that?
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't." - General George S. Patton
Which coach would you like to do that?
The one who is UNDERqualified to coach special teams or the one who is UNqualified to coach special teams?
Tavaras...
I know your personal feelings about tavaras but you shared similar feelings about Ty earlier. His fumble in the first quarter was less due to not holding on to the ball and more about getting speared(which should have been a 15yd personal foul). The USF guy clearly dropped his head and led with the crown of the helmet and caught him right in the chest.
I can’t believe we have a coach who wasn’t all over those damn refs.
Calls that helped USF and hampered our cause:
1. Pressely was speared…should have been 15 yd PF
2. Goodman was clearly interferred with. Could have been a mental lapse thinking he would get the PI in the endzone call and thats the reason for the drop. Should have been FSU ball at the 2.
3. Was absolutely no holding by Datko on the Ponder bomb. Should have been 7 points.
4. Pretty certain it was a safety. The USF tailback clearly got the ball out but then took a step back into the endzone and never re-established crossing the goal line completely with the ball. Should have been 2 points for FSU turned out to be a 99 yard TD drive.
5. Can’t remember when it was but Jermaine Thomas had gotten the edge and was heading up the field and as the USF defender went passed his head clearly turned in a manner suitting facemask. Could have been 15 yd PF instead we punted because he didn’t get the 1st down.
6. Ponder had the same thing happen to him. Believe it was #90 on the USF dline who dove at Ponder. Ponder side stepped him and then the helmet spun similar to what happens when a facemask gets yanked…
7. The Ponder fumble late in the game. From the replays they showed on the stadium scoreboard it looked as if Ponder’s arm went back, stopped, started forward and his forearm was clipped and the ball went forward. Thats the definition of the incomplete pass and the group of USF fans sitting next to me were astounded that it was still ruled a fumble.
Do these calls mean the difference in the game. No on paper but I believe when you have a young team such as we do when you get to thinking about all of the calls that aren’t going your way you begin to doubt and stop trusting yourself. When you lose the confidence that you can get it done mistakes start happening all over. In the end our team should still have overcome those calls but damn when is FSU going to ever be the recipient of bad calls instead of always coming out on the short end of the stick?
"Reporter: What will you tell the team at halftime Bobby?
Bobby: I'll tell 'em what I always tell 'em when were winning. Boys if they don't score we'll win this game"
Grizz I’m going to disagree with you on #7. I saw the same replays, and while his arm moved forward, it was after the ball had been knocked from his hand.
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't." - General George S. Patton
Thats fine...
Either way we still should have been able to win the game its just really frustrating to sit on the sidelines and end up feeling like we are fighting ourselves, a good defense, and not getting any help.
For another thing…..Correct me if I am wrong but this year FSU is currently 1-13 on replayed calls. I am not saying that every call should go FSU’s way but one should guess if the ref’s screw up a random amount of times, and they randomly review certain times, then I don’t know if I believe the fact only 1 out of 13 reviews has gone our way.
"Reporter: What will you tell the team at halftime Bobby?
Bobby: I'll tell 'em what I always tell 'em when were winning. Boys if they don't score we'll win this game"
There were more close plays in this game than I'd seen in a long time.
and there were a lot of questionable calls, but the calls didn’t lose us the game.
Keep in mind
That when you get into the ref blame game, you have to count the calls that went in your favor that shouldn’t have. Among several other plays, Sampson Genus was called for a phantom chop block. He was in front of the FSU defender, and the defender was clearly not engaged with any other blocker. Wiped out a good gain.
I believe the Ponder fumble was the right call, but it was very close. I did not expect it to be reversed on replay. But had it been called an incomplete pass, I would not have expected it to be reversed, either.
Yeah, all the phantom calls were going our way until big-mouth Leavitt started screaming at the refs.
Someone needs to tell Jim that he’s too old to be doing that… oh wait, wrong coach.
Nitpicking...
First, I like the concept of not using a fullback and your point was well made. Also, this is a great article. I was getting frustrated with the put EJ Manuel sentiment during the game thread (which was probably the majority) because I thought Ponder was playing well. This confirms that.
As an avid NFL fan and writer for Buc ’Em be careful with this analogy
The Dallas Cowboys are leading the league in rushing and they rarely use a fullback
They have played the 27, 28, 32 ranked DVOA against the run.
Not trying to go off on a tangent, great article FSUn.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
"I don't know why FSU is playing Pryor at fullback [in the I-formation]."
Been wondering, am I okay to assume a * wink * with this as well?
4th and Goal
We are now 0-3 (if my count is correct) with the quick toss play from the goal-line. Why keep running it? It allows the defense to sell out immediately to the running back. While it doesn’t take any longer for the play to develop, it takes away any other possibility.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
I think that could be due
To us not wanting to line up and pound it straight ahead. Our offensive line is not the type to drive it in on the goal line, especially without a good blocking fullback. So, we try to use the athleticism to our advantage, which doesn’t work nearly as well in the short yardage situations with 11 guys attacking the RB right away. I’d like to see us spread it and run more down there.
>>---l>
But there is plenty of other options than allowing the
defense to sell out.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
Right. I don't like the toss down there either.
They’ll always sell out when they see it start to develop unless we showed Ponder faking the pitch, which generally doesn’t happen.
>>---l>
We all know why the toss play doesn't work.
Bud posted a picture diagram of how we will run it. Now every coach in the country knows how we run this top-secret play. Next thing you know, our opponents will start running the zone read on us since he said we can’t stop it.
OH YEAAHH!
by TBfisherman on Sep 29, 2009 2:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Headset....
So I have to start screaming every time I see Bowden with the headset on again? And I had just gotten used to the idea that he wasn’t actually doing anything. Oy, knowing this should make watching games even more infuriating.
I was hoping he was ordering a post game pizza.
However, based upon some of our play calls around the time he was on the headset I suspect he was busy messing up JF playcalling.
Please, please, please retire. Now would be great but January would work for me too.
Fullbacks
Blame the running game troubles on the fact that both would be starting fullbacks left the team over the summer, and that the staff had neglected to recruit any other fullbacks over the past couple years to replace them. They would probably be better off offensively and defensively to let the Yarborough kid play fullback. Just tell him to hit the first thing that is not wearing garnet or gold. That would be an upgrade over Pryor.
It would be better to not use a fullback at all. We simply do not need one.
by Bud Elliott on Sep 29, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
This is very true
especially with the use of an H-back. Fullbacks have become almost useless.
I don't understand
the need for, or utility of, a full back in a primarily zone blocking system. I’d much prefer to spread the defense out with an extra receiver, second tight end, or hback. Leaving an undersized fullback in the game only allows the defense to put an extra guy in the middle of the field. Passing catching options and routes from the fullback position are limited. It just doesn’t make any sense.
Maybe part of this is that we really don’t have a dependable hback. I think it is an effort to get the best guys on the field, but there seems to be a tension between personnel and scheme. Here, I think scheme needs to win out.
I don’t know that I can agree with that assessment. I think the main challenge in the running game this year (except BYU) has been a lack of movement at the point of attack. Reliford and Little are not physical blockers. At best, they just try to screen their assignment, and don’t generate any movement. Having a good blocking fullback allows for better angles on the outside runs and can more easily seal off scraping linebackers. Good blocking fullbacks can also help generate movement on the inside zones and BOB plays.
As was pointed out this summer in the article on zone blocking, the first cut should occur up field, not while the back in still in the backfield or at the line of scrimmage. Look at all the teams Alex Gibbs has been on (DEN, ATL, HOU) and watch how important the fullback is to the offense and run blocking schemes.
If we can’t find a serviceable blocking fullback, I think the run game will remain inconsistent most of the year.
And by the way, the internet feed I watched the USF game on was terrible, so if I’m speculating a bit on how much movement was generated in this last game.
Oh they beat us up to be sure
I just think that our primary sets should be 3wr with caz, or te, with a fullback last.
by Bud Elliott on Sep 29, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Agree
I agree with you. For the remainder of this season, I think our offense might benefit from taking a page out of the Texas Longhorn playbook. Get in the shotgun, spread out, throw the quick stuff, and use the zone read and draws as our primary runs.
I'm amending my opinion
After further consideration, I can see why a fullback isn’t useless, but having a freshman rb playing out of position at fullback is not the same as Denver or other accomplished zone blocking teams with an actual blocking fullback. So, in the context of FSU’s zone blocking scheme, having Pyror serve as a blocker is not the answer.
If we still has Sims
We’d be using the I formation more often and more effectively in short yardage situations. Somebocy should have convinced him to not quit on himself and the team.
Let's remember that walk on Gard had started 2 of the first 3 games and while he is no Edgar Bennet,
he did a serviceable job leading the way. He was out against USF and IMO that hindered some of those short yardage downs we did not make. He is a much better option in the backfield than Pryor.
I wonder what his status is because I haven’t heard a thing. It is really a sad state of affairs when FSU is starting 2 walk ons and they are performing better than our scholly players.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
If your on a full ride and still quit, then its on you not the team or the coaches.
Especially as Sims could not be homesick.
poor process good result seems to be mixed up
Top right quadrant should read:
Team was lucky, future poor process unlikely to yield similar good results.
Sure seemed like a Bowden rant
Bobby lets Jimbo call the plays. I guess it was Bowden’s fault Ponder was hurt. I guess it was his fault the young TES and FBs are inconsistent with blocking (again I point out losing two experience fullbacks was worse than some thought). I guess Bowden sabotaged Jimbo by teaching players to fumble balls.
awwww
Please! Is that supposed to be an argument?!
by Fire Machine on Sep 29, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
First its Bobby is a figure head, then its Bobby’s fault that the offense stinks under the HCIW everyone is so eager to take over, despite him having full offensive control and not getting consistency, despite never really posting great offensive teams at LSU. Give me a break. Bobby may not be the solution, but he is not the problem and Fisher is not the answer. If Fisher cannot get the offense to play better consistently then why does he deserve to be the head coach? FSU could get many proven guys.
He does not have full control.
Bobby is the sole problem. Fisher was the ACC offensive coordinator of the year, was he not? Did we have the top offense in the conference?
Fisher didn't have all-world offenses at LSU partly because he played in the SEC against top defensive competition
Head Coach Emeritus IS a figure head AND it IS his fault that the players aren’t motivated properly.
Regardless, what do you want to keep an 81 year old coaching for anyway? Are you part of the AARP? Most people retire at the age of 65. Coach Emeritus is 15 YEARS past the time when most people hang up the uniform!
Defending Bobby Bowden right now
is essentially contributing to the very state of mediocrity the FSU football program is mired in.
Until fans like nolestuff stop with this BS and ignoring what EVERYONE knows is true, we will be an inconsistent average team.
Jeff Cameron said it best yesterday.
by Fire Machine on Sep 29, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Jeff was on yesterday
That was like listening to a southern gospel preacher spit the truth. It was actually therapeutic. Almost as good as watching Miami lose.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Sep 29, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Lets play the game.
I’ll list reasons Bowden needs to be fired. Give me yours why he should stay. List too long for A2D
*He brings nothing to the playcalling. Even in the Richt days Bowden was out of touch with offensive playcalling and that was a decade ago. He has been hands off on defense for even longer than that.
*Player evaluation skills are gone. Until Jimbo arrived FSU was late to ID talent, letting the Gators get the jump in recruiting them, or just failed to do it completely.
*Detriment to recruiting. Even beyond failing to spot and recruit talented players, Bowden is so old and out of touch that he can no longer eat Momma’s cooking and pull a kid. Instead he is a weapon used against us by other coaches to let a kid know that at any time of his college career the coach can retire and every thing be pulled from under him
*Playing by old seniority rules. Bowden could order Reid on the field to play for the future. He could do the same with Harley. Instead he is either too hands off or stuck in the past to get us ready for the future.
*Horrible at evaluating assistant coaches/blinded by friendship. He was too blinded to see his son was failing. Too blinded to see that Mickey was starting to be exploited. Too blinded to see that Amato is completely useless. I don’t think Bowden has initiated any change on his staff without outside help in the last 20 years. So how could he possible change the course of FSU football?
*Unaccountability all across the coaching staff. Bowden feels he can’t be fired because he is bigger than FSU. Bowden can’t fire Jimbo because of his HCIW deal and the big buy out. Jimbo has no power to fire any useless/under performing coaches because they are Bowden’s boys. So you are stuck with a staff full of guys who don’t like each other, and being horrible at your job won’t get you fired at FSU.
And the biggest reason
*He has been the head coach during a decade long decline. We put the blame on his son, got the guy fired, and found out the problem was really systemic. Now Bowden fans want to put the blame on Jimbo, but what head coach gets to ride out two OCs and a decade of pure suckage? Switching OCs is like finding out you have a brain tumor that is causing headaches, so you decide to take aspirin.
by osceolafan850 on Sep 29, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: the dive play
Jimbo said yeterday it is the same play we scored against BYU with. Sounded like Jimbo called it to me.
Pryor did have some nice blocks as well. The Oline blocked horribly and none of the backs performed well.
Do you really think Jimbo called a dive play?
Thats Bobby’s favorite play.
If Jimbo called it it was because Bobby wanted it.
He said it scored last week, so he let Bobby call it again.
Its like when someone asks you if they can do something and your like, “I wouldn’t do that, but if it is going to work, okay.” Two weeks ago it worked, this week I hope he puts his foot down.
joe surratt
man, you could guess that play everytime…… over and over again.
by noles 4 life u dig? on Sep 29, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Serious question,
Would you take Chris Peterson (Boise St) or Brian Kelly (Cincy) over Jimbo right now??
I know there’s the whole buyout issue but from a pure HC standpoint would you take either of those two over Jimbo??
I’m not sure myself. I hadn’t questioned Jimbo as the head man until this week. Just way too much inconsistency combined with less than stellar play calling this week.
by FtLauderdaleNole on Sep 29, 2009 1:23 PM EDT reply actions
Peterson- absolutely not.
Kelly- maybe, but I doubt we can afford him, I am not sure if he can recruit, and I think Fisher has a special advantage of understanding the organizational chaos we’ve experienced. It’s quite unique and he has the best chance to hit the ground running.
Great point about organizational chaos at FSU
Why don’t you like Peterson??
I think Kelly is ripe for the picking. How long can you seriously win at Cincy??
by FtLauderdaleNole on Sep 29, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Forever
There is no program in the Big East set to challenge him right now. He could go undefeated through the regular season and play in the BCS CG for all we know. But at the very least he could win the Big East for the next two or three years, stock pile talent, and go on a run with the help of smart scheduling.
We have to face facts, and after almost 10 years of damage we are a step away from being UCLA. A school that is in a recruiting hotbed but has sucked for so long you are still at a recruiting disadvantage. We can change that with a strong finish for the rest of the year, or dig the hole deeper if the team doesn’t perform better.
by osceolafan850 on Sep 29, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Why don’t you like Peterson??
Probably because he can’t bear to see anyone but jimbo bring the team up. Peterson has his team ranked far ahead of ours in every stat category. He may be playing a weaker schedule but he is also using a roster that is of equal or lesser talent relative to his competitors according to rivals.
boise
http://web1.ncaa.org/football/exec/rankingSummary?year=2009&org=66
fl st.
http://web1.ncaa.org/football/exec/rankingSummary?year=2009&org=234
I don't like Peterson because I don't see any reason he's better than Fisher
Trust me, most other coaches would have already quit had they been made to go through what Fisher has.
What competitors does Peterson have lesser talent than?
by Bud Elliott on Sep 29, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
What competitors does Peterson have lesser talent than?
I was thinking of La. Tech and Fresno St. but on further inspection the gap isn’t that, great so I was overzealous about the ‘lesser’ part. I think this jimbo love-fest is too many steps removed from objective. Perhaps I have a bad impression of him after it took BB releasing a press statement, that ‘we’ll find someone who wants to be at FSU’, to get jimbo to finally commit to coming here… Meanwhile Kiffin basically overnighted his resume to us. But that is in the past now. I feel you are not critical enough of jimbo when warranted. For example if we decide that running the quarterback is going to be an integral component of our offense, then why wasn’t a quarterback with a more durable body selected. We had one last year in devo.
Lastly you imply that BB was ‘calling for these out of sequence plays’. Even back when he had more functioning neurons, did you ever see him call plays outside of the i-formation? If he doesn’t know jimbo’s terminology how is he going to call a play? Is he going to take thirty seconds and try and describe it to jimbo by waving his arms around? Is he going to whip out his handkerchief and doodle the play on it. I think you need to place more responsibility on jimbo for the inconsistency. But if you truly got that idea from somebody from an ‘insider’, then I’ll leave it at that.
We had one last year in devo.
D’Vo had serious depression issues and missed tons of practice, he was not a serious option at QB.
Lastly you imply that BB was ‘calling for these out of sequence plays’. Even back when he had more functioning neurons, did you ever see him call plays outside of the i-formation? If he doesn’t know jimbo’s terminology how is he going to call a play? Is he going to take thirty seconds and try and describe it to jimbo by waving his arms around? Is he going to whip out his handkerchief and doodle the play on it.
I do know for a fact that he interjects with the plays, specifically in the red-zone. As to the specific formation, I can’t say which formation he is calling.
Without going into specifics, the stuff that Amato and Bowden are pulling right now is deplorable and amounts to sabotage.
by Bud Elliott on Sep 30, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps I have a bad impression of him after it took BB releasing a press statement, that ‘we’ll find someone who wants to be at FSU’, to get jimbo to finally commit to coming here
This is silly to me. Coaching at FSU is a job, and not something the coaches do out of love for the school, teams, or fans.
For example if we decide that running the quarterback is going to be an integral component of our offense, then why wasn’t a quarterback with a more durable body selected.
You have to work with what you have on hand. No QB that Fisher has recruited has started a game.
Lastly you imply that BB was ‘calling for these out of sequence plays’. Even back when he had more functioning neurons, did you ever see him call plays outside of the i-formation? If he doesn’t know jimbo’s terminology how is he going to call a play? Is he going to take thirty seconds and try and describe it to jimbo by waving his arms around? Is he going to whip out his handkerchief and doodle the play on it.
Bowden would just have to get on the head set or walk over to Jimbo and tell him to run Pryor up the middle, or tell him to run a FB dive or say we need to throw a fade. Jimbo would then call in a play that did what Bowden wanted. Richt said at the roast that Bowden would tell him to run plays just because he wanted to see them and not because they were set up by prior plays.
by osceolafan850 on Sep 30, 2009 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Any decent coach can recruit Florida
The state has some of the best talent, FSU is still a well known program and Kelly can cite his success elsewhere, just like I am sure Urban Meyer had to do when he first got to UF and people questioned him.
Urban has always been known as a savvy recruiter
and he has THE BEST recruiting Defensive Coordinator in the country on staff.
Couple of issues
A question mark with Kelly would be if he would know the type of talent needed to win the ACC and how would his personality and the personalities of his staff affect recruiting. When Meyer moved in half of the Gator staff stuck around, guaranteeing a lot of relationships were carried over thanks to Strong and co. Meyer and his people then hit the ground running and the rest is history.
FSU can no longer just walk up and wow a kid, and the only coaches who have been building relationships with schools would be run out of town if Kelly or anyone else took over. If things were going to be blown up it should have happened 3 years ago. Now waiting for Jimbo is the best possible choice unless some head coach becomes insanely hot and is ready to move on.
by osceolafan850 on Sep 29, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Bobby Bowden
At this point in his career, I get the feeling Bobby is a mute point. Did any one see the team huddle in the 4th quarter with Jimbo in the middle and Bobby looking on for the outside like a school kid?
He also tried to get in another time and
they blocked him out and Fisher sent the huddle off to the field and called Ponder back to give him the play.
Thank you.
I don’t get why people keep saying “mute point” on here.
Its not a moot point
Listen man, what happened when you were a kid, and you asked your parents if you could do something? Do you remember disagreements? Who did you listen to, were you at all apprehensive? Ill bet you were. I would be. Do I listen to one, ignore the other, knowing there will be consequences? Now add a meddling aunt with a huge rack chimin in just because no other family member will house her (that is a not so subtle amato comment). When you dont have, to continue the metaphor, a head of the household (and even when you do, but he is senile and likes to act he lets his “generals” do what they think is best) who makes the best decisions for the family that everyone will fall behind, you have chaos. Sory about the awful sentence structure there, but I think the idea is clear.
Jimbo
I think Saturday was a bad game in all facets (except Reid’s returns).
Jimbo and the offense had a bad day, as did the defense.
Put yourself in his shoes…..
You can’t run the ball.
You can’t protect the QB.
You can’t let your defense on the field.
What are your options?
In order to be a clock controlling offense to keep the defense off the field you have to be able to run the ball and complete short passes.
If neither works, this Saturday will continue to replay with different opponents.
Jason Paul Pierre
We declined on this guy last year if i remember correctly
He was a JUCO DE. He’s better than all our DE it seems. We dropped the ball big time on him :(
Jimbo said we couldn't take him
He was missing a Math credit or some crap so he couldn’t have made it in here.
Yeah, we did not get him or Mount Cody, but we got Marcus White, Corey Surrency (no knowing how good he would be this year) and T Pressley (think he will be good given enough chances). That is why I stated it seems like the rankings for JUCO players are more of a guessing game than some high school kids.
ah , that stinks
Especially since our need for DEs
Surrency was good. I loved the guys blocking. White = bust city so far. Can’t believe he was rated as 5 star.
Pressley we won’t know til next year. I agree he seems like he will be good for us
Great evaluation and great piece again Bud!
I’m going to add to the Bowden rant:
This truly was the dyslexic bowl and a microcosm of two programs going in opposite directions. FSU’s administration should look to how USF is “playing the game” to get a clue. USF is smart. They know that football adds to a university’s national prestige – regardless of actual academic achievements. More importantly, winning football adds to national prestige. Within roughly 10 years, USF has gone from a program built from scratch, no stadium, practically no budget, working out of trailers on a dirt field, to a top 40 program that has put USF on the map. In those same 10 years, FSU has gone from a perennial top-5 powerhouse to an inconsistent program in disarray – essentially running its program into the dirt.
Notably, USF stopped playing in-state rival UCF as USF has essentially declared that they should be rivals with the Big 3, not the lowly Knights. Another smart move. The Big 3, in some of the dumbest moves of the century, all agreed to play USF. This automatically helped validate USF as part of what is now the Big 4. (Arguably, there was a Big 4 as soon as USF joined a BCS conference, but that’s neither here nor there). What’s worse, FSU & UM made the boneheaded move of scheduling home and homes with USF. At least UF had the wherewithal to refuse to play in what is the Buccaneers home stadium. FSU, in particular, has nothing to gain from playing USF except maybe extra money from filling the stadium this week. Further, USF wisely scheduled three warm up games to begin the season in preparation & anticipation of its showdown with the Noles. Whereas, FSU scheduled UM, a ranked BYU and a top-25 D-II school. But I digress, and FSUn has already written a great piece on the importance of scheduling.
Although I get annoyed with those who always blame the administration for FSU’s football failures, the actions of Universal President and Almighty Coach Emeritus Bowden, his puppet T.K. Wetherell, and Wetherell’s puppet Spetman, show a complete lack of direction, plan or other reasoned motives. This cannot be ignored. I feel sorry for Jimbo Fisher and the players. These are good guys caught in what is apparently some sort of desparate cling to a title that probably won’t be won and doesn’t really matter anyway (all time wins).
Like most FSU fans, I’m also a fan of Bowden. However, the Bowden I’m a fan of is no longer coaching at FSU. I don’t know who this Bowden is, but it’s not the same guy. Bowden reminds me of my grandmother who has dementia. I love the lady, but she’s crazy and is clearly not the same person I once knew. We had to put her in a nursing home, under 24 hour supervision. I’m beginning to think Bowden needs this as well.
All one has to do to see the difference in FSU and USF is to look at the programs’ head guys. On the one hand, you have Bowden, who’s on his way out, apparently doesn’t care, and may have lost his mind somewhat. On the other hand, you have Leavitt, a fiery up-and-comer, who literally built a program from scratch, micro-manages, and is passionate about Bulls football. One guy is a coach, the other is retired pretending to coach. Yes, Bobby, we may be Playstation All-Americans, but that’s more real coaching than what you’re doing right now.
The irony of the dyslexia bowl is not that USF is FSU backwards, it’s that USF is moving forward and FSU is moving backwards.
End of rant.
by FSUjab on Sep 29, 2009 2:48 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Not at all.
Although I was just beating a dead horse for TN folks. I was just amazed that I heard “fire Bimbo Fisher” at the game. We have a lot of great fans, but they’re also dumb (or Bowden’s age).
I am seriously considering giving up my season tickets
and just watching at home.
The list of reasons is long and getting longer with each passing day.
Anybody making a rationale argument that Bowden is making decisions based on the best interests of the University is also demented.
And we as fans, Boosters, and Alumni should be interned if we stand by and continue allowing this to happen.
I think the loss to USF may be worse than the loss to WF and most damaging loss in the Bowden area.
At least when we lost to WF, everyone recognized part of the problem (JB) and something happened. I’m afraid that nothing will happen from this loss and, if anything, the blame will continue to fall on Jimbo.
This loss is worse in that it directly affects our recruiting efforts in the Tampa area. Now, whenever FSU and USF go head-to-head for a player, USF has additional fodder.
I do think that in the overall picture, USF’s rise to the Big 4 affects UF more directly as UF traditionally pulls from Tampa & the I-4 area more than the Noles.
Jimbo & Players
Same here, i feel sorry for those guys. Especially the coaches who work extra hard like coley to pick up the slack for the coaches who just “chill out” ie. Amato.
I can’t believe Trickett isn’t gone yet. He must feel an obligation to his guys. Military guys don’t go for that laziness in the head of the organization stuff.
In light of FSUjab's rant, I thought I'd dig this up from the internet archives, re: playstation all americans from maxim sports blog
http://www.maxim.com/sports/45279/aintnobowdenhighenough.html"
Has there ever been a less effective coaching job than that which is being perpetrated on the FSU Seminoles? Has any “legend” in any media (politics, sports, acting, etc.) tarnished his/her legacy as much as Bobby Bowden is now?
– Art
“What you do after the city limits is your business.”
I was going to let this question fester like a flagging 77-year-old football coach, but the Bowden scion forced my hand. Tuesday afternoon’s announcement that Jeff Bowden will resign as offensive coordinator following the end of the 2006 season was oddly reminiscent of Donald Rumsfeld’s resignation last week and no less shocking. Much the same way, I’d actually begun to respect the administration’s stubbornness in its insistence on retaining a boob who’s demonstrated all the genius on offense that Rumsfeld exhibited on defense. Evidently the Florida State brain trust can’t even succeed in being unilateralist piss sticks.
Bobby Bowden’s response to criticism this year has been nothing short of twat-like. After steering one of the nation’s five most talented teams into a 5–5 riverbank (if it weren’t for the twelfth game recently added by the NCAA, the ’Noles would be relying on a win over Florida just to reach bowl eligibility), he’s dubbed his critics "PlayStation All-Americans," suggesting that, since they’ve not played or coached a down of football in their lives, they’re in no position to doubt him. Curious, since he never once questioned their qualifications to suck him off the last 20 years.
This is a far cry from his counterpart in decay Joe Paterno who, while having responded to criticism like a stodgy, cantankerous ass…has always been a stodgy cantankerous ass. Conversely, where one of Bowden’s greatest strengths was once his savoir-faire with media, he’s since become a bitter, huffy liver spot of a man defiant to critique. Meanwhile, when Paterno’s son was single-handedly rotting Penn State’s offense from the inside like a colony of termites, he was gone before doing irreparable harm.
American voters need not to have served public office to criticize their elected officials for being craven, corrupt, venal fuckfaces. And neither must a school’s fans have personally guided a Division I-A college football program to a national title to recognize when their team is miserably underachieving. Soon Bowden will learn that fans are voters and, just as with the douchebags we recently ushered out of/into the Capitol, he can expect them to cast accordingly when they cease dropping green paper chads in the University’s ballot box. Finally will come the midterm elections of National Signing Day, when the nation’s four- and five-star recruits that used to come through for the BNC demonstrate their mistrust of the administration and sign with Florida, Georgia, or Iran.
For Christ’s sake, the man recently longed openly for the old, single-formation days of college football, criticizing today’s increased complication in the scheming and preparation necessary to create mismatches and misdirection. It’s not fucking shuffleboard, it’s major college football and it demands hungry, ambitious doers, not resentful, napping retirees in denial.
Bobby Bowden has remarked on numerous occasions that the Seminoles are only a playmaker away. And in a way he’s right. Recruit the right replacement for this aging sack of orange soda and peanuts, and you’re right back in the mix!
Change has to come
Any sane FSU fan can see that we’re NEVER going to get better under BB
2009 Rays Baseball: Welp.....we'll try again in 2010
2009 FSU Football: The most inconsistent team in the country
Be a TRUE Seminole: http://www.seminoles.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/071509aab.html
Looked like a bit of a morale issue as well with Ponder not able to run
FSUn another Dadgum great post man!
Regarding Fumbles
I know we have discussed at length that fumble recovery is not a repeatable skill….
If that is true, than FSU has been seriously unlucky so far….
FSU has the 5th most fumbles in college football this season, and has lost approximately 2/3rds of them, putting their rate of recovery at 80th nationally.
With that many fumbles (12 total), and a recovery rate significantly worse than average (FSU has recovered 1 out of every 3 fumbles), it is not surprising that FSU has lost the second most fumbles out of any team so far this season (8).
Contrast that with Middle Tennessee St. and Army. Those teams have both fumbled 14 times (tied for worst in D-I), and recovered all but 2 and 4 of them respectively.
The FSU/USF 4 lost fumbles in a game is a single game school record for the Noles
Not the kind of records any of us are looking for by any means. That tells me that, with all of our issues, we had a bit of bad luck as well, since fumble recovery is luck and not skill. Although, realistically Fortson’s fumble out of bounds could have been another lost fumble.
You would think that the offensive coaches would have addressed any fumble issues after Ty Jones’ butterfingers display in the spring game.
I do anticipate an uptick in luck there.
And Ponder has been taking great care of the ball and has thrown but one interception.
forced v. unforced
I can see why fumbles where a guy drops the ball in the middle of the line are a crapshoot to recover.
However, when a team brings the wood on a receiver, and effectively takes him out of the play, it seems to me that the chances of the offensive team recovering are probably reduced.
I guess what I’m saying is that certain types of fumbles are more likely to result in turnovers. Wide Receiver fumbles are much more difficult to recover when a WR has just gotten punished, since the people who are likely to be around are defenders chasing after the play.
Bottom line, the WR’s need to take much better care of the ball. I’m not worried about Ponder.
Recovery rates are generally around 50% independent of luck
I expect regression to the mean and a little more luck to go our way in that department.
I agree
It is really the rate of fumbling that is unacceptable…..
It just seems to me that if you had a team and it was the receivers who were fumbling out in space all the time, recovery rates would probably be expected to be worse than the mean.
I think Powell's going
to come back next year and look like that massive roid guy. Don’t know why…just have a feeling.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Sep 30, 2009 7:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Really nice post...
This is the kind of analysis that I really like about this site. Still ready to jump off a balcony for setting ourselves up to lose to 3 Florida schools this year. Told everyone at FSU when I left town a few years ago that the University would not get another dime out of me until “that old man” was gone. I love FSU and I really want to support the University, but cannot get over the negativity I felt towards TK, BB, (and to a certain extent) Larry Abele as a student.
Once again, nice work!
Thanks!
But promise me something… double your contribution when the announcement comes down. We need a jump start and affirming their correct decision is a great way to do it.
by Bud Elliott on Sep 29, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude, the day he retires, Im calling and making at least a 200 dollar donation.
Actually, that gave me an idea…
You have a link or an address for where new (hopefully up and coming alumni) boosters, even on a small scale can make those contributions?
My Stage Play of Bobby's Exit
Hello? Hasn’t anyone figured out yet when Bobby will pull out his last ace in the hole…
Always the dramatist, BB will not let us down….
Saturday am, pregame breakfast, Gainesville, Florida is the setting.
Bobby arrives wearing a Seminole baseball cap and carrying a well-worn bible. After removing his cap, he pauses, looks at it longingly, then carefully places it backwardon his head. He says nothing, makes no eye contact with anyone… simply sits down at his assigned seat and begins to enjoy the food and familiarity of comrades.
As the waiters are making their final rounds, he announces he’d like, “One more for the road.”
(Enter his wife)
Bobby: While I am waiting for that last jolt of java, I have a small request of this team.
(Enter Barbara Streisand – yes, he can afford it)
(Playing in the background is “The Way We Were”)
to be continued……
Act II
(Barbara and Ann hug each other wiping tears.)
(Jimbo stands, turns Bobby’s hat around, and lifts his coffee cup in a mock salute.)
(Bobby stands, turns his cap around again, lifts his coffee cup then clink’s Jimbo’s)
Bobby: I want you boys to be the first to know that this will be my last game as head coach of the fine institution at which I have been blessed (raises Bible) and cussed at the most since Job forsake all…
to be continued
Schedule?
Fire the AD for the schedule?! WTFO! How about just playing and winning the darn games. Stop the incessant whining about the schedule and the non-conference games. Focus should be on Bowden and his staff’s complete inability to recruit, field, and coach a winning team.

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