Orlando Sentinel - College Gridiron 365 Blog – Breaking news: Skip Holtz accepts job at USF
Now, who will ECU pursue? Greg Hudson is likely to be mentioned.
about 2 years ago
Wild@Heart Nole
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This is a great hire by the Bulls
FSU fans that don’t think that USF has upgraded and is more dangerous now are delusional.
Money issues
Skip will improve the play on the field and he will have more physically gifted teams than he did at ECU, but there is still a long way for USF to go. Even if Holtz turns them into a perennial Big East contender, they will be in a conference that people feel is inferior and they are way behind in cash. If we are behind the 8ball with UF because of the cash difference and the perception of our conferences imagine where USF is.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
I think.....
….That UM has more to worry about then FSU.
Just speculation, but FSU is starting to compete with UF for the top kids. That leaves UM competing for the 2nd-level guys, and USF is going to start making inroads (they already have, really) on those kids.
On the field, Skip Holtz has already proven to be a talent multiplier…
Oderint Dum Metuant
We're not competing
with UF for the top kids. Wonder why Powell and Floyd didn’t even mention us in their list of schools? I’m not saying this won’t ever happen again (and I hope it’s the other way around as a matter of fact), but let’s not get carried away.
I am sure
that he meant top kids in the state of Florida. We aren’t recruiting nationally so of course we were fighting UF for that kid. But UF wanted Luc and Joyner, they still want Jones and Green, and depending on what you believe we almost ended up with Elam and have a shot at Brown. That is competing.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
I wasn't saying that it was time to panic
But too many FSU fans underestimate the Bulls. A healthy respect for your competition and a little bit of fear can be a good thing. Getting full of yourself and resting on your laurels gets you a program that can be upset at home buy the very team you were dismissing.
Miami has separate issues and should be concerned as well, but FSU shouldn’t get too cocky either.
If Holtz makes them a contender and they go undefeated in the Big East, then beat Miami OOC, it would only take a BCS bowl win to give them credibility for a run at the championship game.
As for funding, Leroy Selmon is doing a great job getting their facilities upgraded, they have tons of corporate targets to make up for their young alumni base, and they are within a 2 hour drive of 2-3 million people at least. It won’t hurt to have Lou Holtz right up !-4 talking up his son to anyone that will listen.
That 2-3 million people
Most of them that are into college football have picked a side already. If you grow up as a Nole, Cane or Gator there is pretty much nothing USF could do to make you a Bull. And if you are a corporate sponsor and want to hand money to a program to get free advertising USF is clearly the 4th choice. They have yet to win anything and don’t play on TV often. So what about them is attractive to a large corporate sponsor?
I am not saying USF will wallow at the bottom of D1a, but the only kind of advantage they can claim is their location and that is reduced by the pull of the Big 3 in the state. History has also shown us that Florida kids will go to LSU, Alabama, Auburn and UGA before they go to USF. Holtz is not a big enough name to make any blue chip recruit change his mind where USF falls in the pecking order.
There is no reason to worry about USF until they win their conference several times and start pulling in top 15-20 classes on a regular basis.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
You are welcome to interpret the situation any way you want.
It is all speculation right now anyway.
However,
I grew up in Tampa. Many of my family and friends went to USF but were FSU or UF fans because there was no football team. A lot of them have season tickets to the Bulls now, it is an easy fun way to spend time with the family. They still get to Tally once or twice a year. On top of that, many people in Tampa and Central Florida don’t grow up there, they or their parents grew up in the Midwest or Northeast, so I don’t think that as many grew up as a Nole or a Cane or a Gator like you state.
As far as the corporate money, I was talking about businesses that have suites at Raymond James and can entertain clients locally at a BCS conference football game. They don’t really care if the Bulls are in a weak conf. or not.
History is a good indicator, but it is like mutual funds, past performance is no guarantee. A lot of these kids are starting to take notice and it only takes a couple here or there to decide it is easier to stay in Tampa where Mom and Dad can come to all your games for Alabama and Auburn and UGA to miss out on these kids.
USF is making the hardest push, and devoting resources to the push, of any school outside the big 3. If you wait till they are pulling in top classes and are winning their conference on a regular basis, then you have waited too long and will get beat half the time.
FSU should not play USF except for bowl games if it comes to that. Let them play Miami for their OOC game against a major Florida team.
They have a long way to go before I will be concerned about them even coming close to competing at the level of FSU
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
BTW
A good portion of that “corporate money” from all the suites that entertain clients goes to the Glazers, not USF
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
Owners of the Stadium
The Glazers own the Bucs and a ton of other stuff
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
ya their finances are in shambles at the moment
"Don't flinch, let's kill a fly with an Axe."
>>>──────►
Yet we lost to them.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
Oh, I thought your reasons above explained your reasoning behind why
they wouldn’t be able to compete with us.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
Talking long term
Ole Miss beat Florida once, but I wouldn’t say they are in a position to compete with UF.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I need to give that more thought. The likelihood of us losing back to back is small, I agree.
I’m torn because when two programs step onto a field and one wins, I don’t think the win should be mitigated, otherwise we undermine the sport itself and look to justify teams based on stats alone, whereas what “should” have happened based on comparative measures doesn’t always happen, but what really matters is getting the win.
I hope this doesn’t make it sound like I don’t believe in the process vs results, because I do.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
I get you
Yea the win is what counts and I wouldn’t try to take anything away from the Bulls. But moving forward nobody but the die hard Bulls fan expect the teams to be on the same level 2 or 3 years from now.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
Football Revenue
Florida- $106,030,895
Florida State- $45,414,953
Miami- 46,849,990
South Florida- $34,727,263
These revenues include generated revenue (such as proceeds from ticket sales and sponsorships) and allocated revenue (such as tuition waivers, money from student fees and direct institutional support.) Found it on the Orlando Sentinel. Doesn’t look like it takes into account Boosters and it doesn’t talk about how much money each team spends. But we can still take the 11 million dollar gap, factor in the almost 5 to 1 booster difference, and then the cash FSU athletics should have left from the glory days and you can imagine how much more money FSU has to work with than FSU.
Lets not even think about the UF part though.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
Your numbers are a bit wrong
Those are not football revenues, those are Athletic revenues for every sport and they do include booster contributions
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
Yea I know
Can’t edit the title though.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
What has the football revenue been over time for these programs?
Let’s not just look at the most recent year after UF has had an extremely successful year.
What difference would that make with USF?
Even when USF rose to #2 they dropped like a rock. They have trouble selling out their stadium and any side deals they have can’t be worth much bc of their lack of prestige. They also don’t have success in other sports to rake in the dough.
The longer back you go with FSU I am sure the football team would bring in more dough. Baseball has to bring in some, relatively speaking. Gone to the dance a few times.
UF had those Final Four runs plus their BCS success. Add in the SEC tv deals and you get big money.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
I was just wondering. I think it's relevant to the state of CFB in Florida in general.
Also growth and potential growth.
Yea it is
Just didn’t know how it fit into the USF thing but by following the money you can find out why some of the teams keep winning.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
Here's another question: where does that 80+ million go?
I’m sure it all doesn’t go back to football. You know, Title IX and all that.
Don't know about the Gates
But Texas uses the revenue to completely fund their football program and then gives some or most of the profit back to the general University fund. From there I am sure some goes to class room needs and other parts go to lesser sports.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
UF grossed 106 million last year and put about 104 back into athletics
There is an article coming next week that will go into more detail with regards to team finances
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
By this reasoning, we can never hope to compete with UF
over twice our revenues, larger alumni base, better attendance at games, stronger conference, and a better job of recruiting over the last 5 years.
Some actually see it that way
Personally I think there gets to be a point where a weight room is a weight room, a practice field is a practice field etc. With our prestige and media profile we are in a position to recruit similar levels of talent to UF on the field and on the sidelines. The state has so much talent that it is impossible for UF to get them all and extremely unlikely that they would get all of the top recruits once FSU is back on their feet. The level of talent that FSU can field will allow it to compete with any team in the nation and that is the difference between it and USF.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
All you've proven is that FSU has probably peaked whereas USF & UCF have not.
You should be concerned about USF. Maybe not next year or the year after, but we’re speculating about the FUTURE of football in the state of Florida not the past. The past is what your graph represents.
Frankly, yes. And apparently you do too based on your comments re: FSU v. UF
I think FSU and UF will stagnate or go in reverse although FSU has more potential for growth than UF I believe… just my opinion though.
I NEVER said FSU was going to stay at the same level
I have the frame of mind that we will never be able to compete with them on a “consistent” level
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
I don't like that frame of mind and, no offense, but I hope you're flat-out wrong.
With that frame of mind, maybe you should start rooting for the Yanks and Gates and stop playing with these small market teams…
New handle = YanksnGates? :)
Does the same small market team compete for a championship on a yearly basis
NO
Thanks for proving my point.
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
What does UF spend money on in football that we don't?
All I’ve got is that they have a big rec room for the players to hang out in. What items do they double our football expenditures on?
A lot of it has to do with support staff, players dorms/extras, the class in which they travel
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
Our players have a rec room...
It’s kind of smallish but has a nice TV in it. Right next to the locker room.. kind of a clubby feel.
And does that same large market team compete for a championsip on a yearly basis?
NO
They’re in the hunt often, but not on a yearly basis. They didn’t even make the playoffs in 2008. Remember?
Do you ever look at the big picture
In the last 15 years they missed the playoffs ONCE
Went to 7 World Series and won 5 of them
Went to 8 Championship Series and won 7 of them
Went to 14 Division Series and won 8 of them
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
What is your definition of consistent?
And compete for that matter? Is compete winning or is it all games be decided by 10 or less? And is consistent winning 4/10 or do you expect us to win 2 or 3 times a decade?
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
My use of consistent was in terms of competing for a MNC 7 or 8 times a decade
Something UF will be able to do, FSU maybe 3 or 4
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
And by that you mean...
having a good enough team to be in the discussion up until the final weeks of the season, not playing for it 7/8 times per decade. Right?
Correct
I think UF will be in the SEC game 7 or 8 times a decade with the winner of that game going to the MNC the majority of the time
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
More a conference problem
I think that UF could lose to us, stomp the SEC West winner and then make it back to the title game if we have less wins than them. We won’t have that luxury in the ACC unless Va Tech or Ga Tech was having a monster year.
All in all I would take being in the running for the MNC 4x a decade. Especially if those other 6 years are only 2-4 loss seasons. I used to think the conference was on the way up as a whole, but now I am convinced it will never rise and FSU could run through the ACC like Texas and OU do the Big 12. I will not complain at all if our off years are 3 losses or less.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
UF only played in the SECCG 3x in the last decade.
We have a much easier road to the ACCCG than UF.
3 out of 5 in the Urban Meyer era
Spurrier and Zook are no longer coaching there
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
Which is why I think if Meyer leaves, it COMPLETELY changes UF.
They have the money to hire “anybody”, supposedly, but it’s doubtful their next hire will win 2 titles in 3 years and both within their first 5.
If UF's stagnates
Then they will be stuck at the top, not a bad place to be. FSU hasn’t been maximizing its potential which is why we have sucked. Once we are working to the best of our abilities I think we will be able to average 4 out of 10 with UF.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
Peaked inplies on the way down.
Clearly FSU is on the rise again and in position to win big in the ACC. College teams also don’t just regress for no reason. CFB is designed to keep the ones with power in power. UF and to a lesser extent FSU both exist in a tier that allows them to succeed as long as they hire smartly. USF is trying to rise up against programs that have advantages over them in every single important category. How are they supposed to compete and excel when they have inferior everything right down to the recruiting?
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
I like the Mutual Fund reference to history and indicators. The sad part is that past performance is how decisions are made in finance. Expectations, beta, Security Market Line, the CAPM etc.
Lots of money changes hands and decisions are made based on theories that make use of past performances of stocks relative to the market.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
haha, not sure what you are meaning, whether you are agreeing or saying that that line of thinking is junk.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
Holtz literally turned ECU from garbage to a respectable program.
They were 3-19 in the 2 years prior to Holtz’s tenure. They won their conference the past 2 years. He also won his conference his last year at UConn (prior to it becoming DIA and joining the BE).
I don’t care what “level” you’re at, if you can win championships at multiple stops, you can coach. Leavitt never did that. This is a huge upgrade, imo, for USF. I doubt they ever make it a Big 4, but it’s CERTAINLY possible. With the right coach they WILL beat us out for some recruits and could beat us once in awhile if we played them enough (which it doesn’t appear we will).
Garbage is a little strong
They’ve had success before, finishing in the top 25 a couple times in the 90s as well (Jeff Blake, David Garrard).
Agree with the rest.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Jan 14, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
I think he will do well at USF
I think he can get some Big East titles for the Bulls and I expect them to be better coached than under Leavitt. But I don’t expect them to have the kind of depth needed to be a truly elite team. For the next few years I think their ceiling is where we saw Cincy go to this year. Win a lot of games in the Big East but not deep enough or armed with enough top end talent to win it all.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
I guarantee you this is an upgrade from Leavitt.
You’re right, they may not win the big show, but they will most certainly improve.
I agree
I think Holtz will do a good job at USF and turn some of the kids other schools overlook into good players. But I don’t see them competing on the level that UF and FSU can reach.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
regarding not underestimating your opponent. I believe Sun Tzu mentioned something about this in a book called the “Art of War” Many other brilliant minds have paraphrased the same.
Not talking about on the field
Or rather not talking about just on the field. What you see on Saturdays is a only a part of what goes into making a school great. You cash to pimp out everything you can and to whine and dine the kids. You need the practice facilities, weight room and some kind of track record to convince the top kids where you are going. Yes USF beat the worse FSU team in the last 25 years, but that one win does not mean their Program is a threat to FSU’s Program.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
True, way more goes into it
I agree wholeheartedly w/ the logic behind your statement, just hate to sound like an elitist. I can’t stand how the Gators truly believe they’re in every way better than the Noles! The same way i hope we sneak up & knock them (UFaG)the f-bomb out, i’d like to avoid it happening again w/ USF.
I simply don’t ever want to fall prey to preconceived notions. FSU’s “O” seemingly underestimated USF’s intensity on the field.
Fear the Bulls? F* the Bulls! They can FEAR MY SPEAR!
Getting full of yourself and resting on your laurels gets you a program that can be upset at home buy the very team you were dismissing.
Jimbo, Coley, Stoops, & Hudson are Coaching now; not Bowden, Amato, and Allen.
Miami has separate issues and should be concerned as well, but FSU shouldn’t get too cocky either.
WVU might have more to worry about since the FSU & UF rejects might stay in state rather than headin’ for the hills.
If Holtz makes them a contender and they go undefeated in the Big East, then beat Miami OOC, it would only take a BCS bowl win to give them credibility for a run at the championship game.
They are years away from doing that. It will be no small feat for USF to go undefeated in the Big Easy. Recall that USF, Louisville, and Cuse are the bottom dwellers of the Big East. And now Strong is at Louisville.
As for funding, Leroy Selmon is doing a great job getting their facilities upgraded, they have tons of corporate targets to make up for their young alumni base, and they are within a 2 hour drive of 2-3 million people at least. It won’t hurt to have Lou Holtz right up !-4 talking up his son to anyone that will listen.
Why wouldn’t the Big 3 have more corporate targets paying higher dollas?
i dont think he would, theres more upside at FSU
hed be under the same “boss” again, at a smaller program, and if he just waits a few years hell be the DC at the “new” FSU
"Don't flinch, let's kill a fly with an Axe."
>>>──────►
"at a sma;;er program"
I disagree. USF is in a BCS conference and ECU wasn’t. That itself is pretty big. I do agree it will be tempting for Hudson to think about the DC position at USF, but, if Stoops is as good as advertised, he won’t have to wait more than 2 years if he wants the same position at FSU.
Everyone should stop thinking Stoops will be done in 2
Our defense was horrible last year. Just getting them to average would be a great turn around for next year. So the year after that the D has a chance to be elite. What DC gets a HC job after fielding 1 elite unit? Stoops should be here for 4 years.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
Stoops turned UA into a consistently "good" defense.
If he can turn our defense around in 2-3 years to a top 25 defense, he will get offers. Not sure why you think it’d take 2+ years in a row of an elite defense to get a look.
BC colleges like to hire OCs
It took strong a much longer run of BCS conference success than Mullen to get a HC job. Outside of Pelini and recently Strong pretty much every major job has gone to an OC or someone who already is a HC. Also he has the problem of people wondering how much of his D at UA was his and how much was his brother. Add that to the fact that Southerners in general look down on West Coast football and those years at UA are not going to help him get a SEC or ACC job.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
I'm definitely not disagreeing
It just caught me off guard.
by Jamil Dawson on Jan 14, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
Its all good.....
I think it would be pretty sweet to avoid the “musical chairs” scenario. If he leaves i wish him luck. If he stays it continues to speak volumes regarding Fisher being easy/favorable to work with.(Demanding but not overbearing)
I'm more worried about Hudson back to ECU as Head Coach
is this a possibility?
USF : Big East Champions 2011
This legitimately shows USF is dedicated to competing at a championship caliber level. He’ll probably go after Hudson, but with $$$ and Tradition on our side, I don’t see him leaving.
USF is very similar to ECU in academics and facilities. Bulls finally have a coach who can take them all the way….
and we have a serious threat to the Tampa/St Pete/ SW Florida recruiting zone.
How do you mean?
They are in a major push to upgrade the athletic facilities, Raymond James is doing a much better job of giving the stadium a “USF” feel for games. It looks great on TV. They are NFL caliber locker rooms, etc. Plus, you can get beer at the game.
Will it be better for USF to have an on-campus stadium, probably, but if you are a high school kid and you get to play every week on the same field as an NFL team, that is not a bad situation.
Great stadium, albeit not within walking distance from campus.
But what about the weight room, training rooms, film rooms, meeting rooms, etc.? Are those “big boy”-caliber?
Facilities
When people talk about facilities they also mean weight room, rec roof, player dorms, offices, film room etc. If playing in a NFL stadium meant you had good facilities people would not be dumping on Miami’s.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
They really can't.
They’re not in a BCS conference. They haven’t come close to filling their smallish stadium since its inaugural season. They only pay O’Leary $1M. Don’t think they’ve got the money to hire anyone better.
I heard it was a commuter school
But I have never been so who can’t be certain.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Their traditional undergrad enrollments are like 20-25K, which is still pretty good-sized.
They also include their branch campuses in their enrollment totals, I believe.
I thought you were comparing them to UCF, though, in regards to $/hiring coaches.
Overall
Overall one of the reasons I feel USF can’t compete is they are cheap with the staff. But I was curious about their enrollment numbers too.
by osceolafan850 on Jan 14, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
1/3 of UF's is probably the same.
Actually, technically the Comm. College of the AF has the largest enrollment with the University of Phoenix not far behind.
CC of the AF?
I think you realize we’re talking about traditional universities, not online universities or community colleges.
I wonder how much USF beating FSU strengthened their booster support.
USF is an upstart football program.
- 1997 first year with football program: 1-AA
- 2001 jumped to 1-A as an independent
- 2003 joined Big East
They have a student population of 46,000 as of 2008 which makes them the 9th largest university in the US (did not know they were that big). They have momentum to build up the program since they broke the big-3’s triad of untouchable-ness (not actually a word). If their booster base grows then they have potential to be a real force. Bringing in a solid head coach to turn these highly rated SoFla recruits is the next step. This is a good pick up for both Holtz and USF. As an FSU fan I hate this.
Taking care of business in Raymond-James
In 2012 is critical!
by Scalpemall on Jan 14, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Wonder how this effects their recruiting.
If they can bring in some talent….watch out miami!
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