Florida State Falls to Seven Seed in SBNation's Bracketology
Last week the Noles were a 5 seed, but after two losses in the ACC they slipped to a 7 seed.
In Joe Lunardi's bracket, the Seminoles fell all the way to a 10 seed.
Florida State dropped out of the top 25 in the two major national polls.
about 2 years ago
TrueCubbie
251 comments
0 recs |
Email
PrintComments
UCONN is still ranked?
Seriously? UNC shouldn’t be ranked either, but at least they’ve beaten some good teams, so there’s at least an argument.
if you look at all the losses
every game comes down to the last 2 minutes.
Thats why UConn isn’t going anywhere this year, they dont have that guy to close out games. They miss AJ Price.
if our losses to UF and Ohio State were closer then we wouldn’t have dropped so far.
I think it benefits us to not be ranked. When we’re ranked other teams see us as an important RPI win.
weve been playng terribly...
watching leanard hamilton direct our offense by way of derwin kitchen and luke louks has been very frustrating this past week. we do not play fundamentally sound offense when he have to and that has caused us to lose to both maryland and ncst, both teams that we should be able to beat.
I hear they have a 40p playbook
Id love to see past p4
Or last years playbook.
Page 1 says:
“If we get down more than 10-12 points, give the ball to Toney”
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
polls are shit
the coaches in basketball rarely pay close enough attention to games to give good solid observations and rank teams the way they really should
a 7 seed isn't really any worse than a 5 seed
At least, not with the whole 12 seed “upset” phenomenon. You may be talking about one extra quality win that puts a team safely in at a 10 seed, or on the bubble and in the 12 spot.
I'd prefer a 12 seed
Since, as you mentioned, 5 seeds are prone to the upset. Unless you get one of the top 3 or four seeds, you really don’t get a huge advantage.
However, considering how off our offense is, we should be hoping that this team improves enough to even make the tournament, much less have a decent seed. Nothing’s guaranteed at this point.
No way. With the way we've played most of the time
A 10 seed is generous. I was about ready to breathe a sigh of relief until we got to the 2 minute mark in the VT game.
I dunno, I just don’t see it happening. IMO we haven’t proven we can hang with better teams in the ACC. I hope I’m wrong, but it’s going to be a tough climb out of the ACC this year. I’d love to be able to say that I feel confident that we’ll finish better than .500
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
definitely
if we make the tournement this year it will be a success. We have a prospectively good young team that hopefully will blossom by the end of the year coming into next year. hopefully solomon alabi doesnt leave but even if he does xavier gibson should do a good job replacing him. but a tourney birth this year is definitely a success given the talent we know that will come back next year
JUST making it would not be a success.
Making it to the Sweet Sixteen is a success. We have more NBA-type talent than almost anyone we’ll face.
we should make it
a first round win would be a success for this team as young as it is. As far as having more “NBA-type” talent, you’ve hit on one of my pet peeves concerning the evaluation of talent on this team. It is over-estimated almost everywhere it is talked about. Right now, there isn’t an NBA type talent on this team. Alabi will get there. Snaer & Singleton have a chance but both have a really long way to go. I think people get confused because Ham has recruited some talented athletes. They are all projects though. None are elite level basketball players. By that I am referring to their skill set. I do think this team has the depth and will have the talent and experience such that anything less than the sweet 16 the next 2 yrs (after this one) is a disappointment.
I guess that makes me a draft "expert" then
I said those 3 have NBA natural ability. Alabi would probably be drafted after this year but he’s a few years away from making an impact up there. Do you honestly think snaer or Singleton would be drafted after this yr? Both are incredibly raw. Snaer has passed CS in my opinion. Beautiful jump shot and already a very good on ball defender. Had good HS coaching, but doesn’t have a clue what he’s supposed to be doing out there yet. The only way to figure it out is play more. CS has an incredibly low bball IQ. Just a very dumb bball player. Stupid fouls, stupid turnovers, no real offensive game, out of position much of the time. I don’t think It’s Ham’s “fault”. They’re both just a lot rawer than we’d like. Ham does develop talent. Think of Thornton and Douglas when they got here. Look how far Alabi has come. The Johnson kid who left too early did improve alot his last 2 yrs. For that matter, look at Reid who has become a serviceable ACC player from a guy that doesn’t have the natural ability to compete in this league. having said that I hate Ham’s game planning, or more accurately, lack thereof. But as others say, we could do alot worse. he should get the next 2 yrs to see how far he can go with the talent he has assembled.
What difference does it make if Alabi is a few years away from making an impact on an NBA roster? If a team thinks it’s in their best interest to finish developing the player themselves, against professionals, they’ll pick him up and let him develop on the bench for a little while. It’s about potential.
Do I think Snaer or Singleton are NBA players right now? No. Do Draft Express and NBA Draft say they will play in the NBA one day? Yes.
I think maybe advantageous to clarify the term "NBA type talent" as it can be construed 1 of 2 ways
1.) Derrick Rose, Carmello Anthony, Eric Gordon, Michael Beasley. One and done type of guys (used freshman for the Snaer comparison)
2.) Al Thornton, Al Horford, Raymond Felton, Chris Paul (guys who started slow but needed to develop)
Better?
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
I mean it as a guy who plays in the NBA.
Very few are good enough to make it to the league and we likely have 3 on our current roster who will make it.
Right. You mean eventually though, right?
Because that’s where the argument lies. It could be interpreted as “NBA ready” talent, inferring that your opinion was that SIngleton, Alabi, and Snaer could play in the league tomorrow if given the option.
I consider you smart enough not to assume you meant that, but it was a bit confusing.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 11:40 PM EST up reply actions
great caveat -
the type of programs the feed on one n done talent don’t usually have solid, consistent success (kansas state, g tech etc) whereas the good programs (unc/duke/uconn) find the kids who will stick around for at least two/three years
(also – not to be that guy, but chris paul was a top 5 recruit who chose wake in large part b/c of his family)
Yeah, Chris Paul wasn't the best example. I forgot he was a two and done
Wasn’t he? He went early IIRC. Substitute Chris paul for Steve Blake
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
correct - he was two and out
and blake is a perfect example (see also tom gugliatta, david robinson, jason thompson)
nba draft express?
isn’t that the website run by 13 years old gators?
by Mr. Seminole on Jan 19, 2010 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
this is a good thing
we certainly haven’t been playing like top 25 team, and because this year’s team isn’t THAT good, they’d probably be better off having people tell them they can’t instead of telling them they’ll easily make the ncaa tourney.
and
leonard has yet to put together a complete team, top to bottom. when we have point guards, we have no big men. when we have big men, we have no point guards.
My thoughts exactly. This years team has no one who can consistently create a shot, or that you’d want to have the ball to win the game. Also – the perimeter D has been pretty shabby at best.
Chop it up Seminoles!
by horsepowernole on Jan 18, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
FSU Doesn't Value the Basketball
Turnover % Since 2004 via Ken Pomeroy
2004- 22.4 (225th)
2005- 23.2 (266th)
2006-22.3 (223rd)
2007- 21.4 (182nd)
2008- 21.8 (228th)
2009- 22.7 (291st)
2010- 24.8 (325th)
It would be easy to blame our turnover problems on having a tall, young team. But even when FSU ran a lot of 3 guard sets in 07 and 08, FSU still didn’t value the basketball.
I place 100 percent of the blame on Hamilton. 50% goes to Hamilton for playing Demercy more than 6 minutes/game, whose turnover rate relative to times he actually touches the ball and contributes on offense is too painful to quantify. The other 50% goes to Hamilton for apparently failing to teach anyone else that taking care of the ball is something we should care about.
Being able to recruit athletes who can play defense is not the same thing as being a premier coach. Looking pissed off when DeMercy dribbles it off his leg for the 4th time in the last 3 games is not the same thing as benching him and using it as a teaching moment not only for him, but for the entire team. If you want to play, take care of the ball.
We stumble, trip, and fall through games
we aren’t a top 25 team.
once the offense matures we’ll be a force to be reckoned with.
that can potentially happen by the post season.
i wouldnt go that far
hamilton is a great recruiter. Okaro White will be a force once he comes to tallahasse (i watched him in high school a lot) and in the next recruiting class if we get two of the three top players (ryan boatright, kentavious caldwell, and rodney hood) then we will have a great great team. he just cant manage an offense
So why would you want a guy who consistently produces average offenses?
Is a consistently average offense acceptable for football?
he recruits better than many top-teir basketball schools (we currently have 3 5* players on our roster
his kids are trouble-free and he graduates a high number
he’s produced 2 1st round picks in the last 4 years
and while his offense leaves a lot to be desired, his kids play hard and compete
firing him would be a huge mistake
I agree 000111...I'm not ready to give up on Ham yet.
I know we’ve seen the same song and dance, but I think it’s harder to compete in college football than basketball, due to the obvious strength of our conference, the fact that FSU is not a basketball school, and the parity in college basketball is more evident IMO (anybody truly can beat anyone else on any given day).
I’m eventually hoping that superior talent trumps mediocre offensive coaching. Similar to Jeff Bowden.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
Fredo Bowden comparison is a poor one, imo.
Superior talent was trumped by his poor coordinating. Is the “process” on the court improving? Or has it pretty much been poor all season? Has it pretty much been poor throughout Hamilton’s tenure? The pieces are much better than what we had 10 years ago and are equal to or better than almost anyone we’ll face, but the process is not better.
He doesn’t come close to getting the most out of his recruits. If he were to land the #1 (at their position) PG, SG, SF, PF and C in the same recruiting class, I honestly do not think he’d win a title that next year.
Ask Al Thorton if his potential was reached.
Process > Results
by TBfisherman on Jan 18, 2010 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
Ask Florida's Mr. Basketball, Jason Rich, if it was reached.
You give me one guy. I can give you Hamilton’s entire tenure here full of teams that didn’t maximize their potential.
JRich was a solid player
Process > Results
by TBfisherman on Jan 18, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
not only that, but he is averaging double figures for Israeli basketball
titans Maccabi Haifa! I like how the club still uses a picture of him in a Noles’ uniform!
http://www.mhbasket.co.il/Player.asp?id=81&lang=en
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
oh, I was joking. I just wanted to find out what he was up to these
days.
Hey, maybe Hamilton’s big success is creating a pipeline to the Israeli league. Can you even figure out what Swann is averaging for this team:
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
well, thats okay. I spent the last five minutes trying
to find the cheerleaders, because I saw a picture of them flash by real quick on the home page. Its tough when you dont read Hebrew.
I am a lost soul.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
You may not be completely lost
But you just may be beyond help.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
I can't find any record of JRich being Mr. Basketball for Florida
Being from PCola, I was a huge fan of Rich/Mims.
Did you guys know Adrian McPherson was a FL Mr. Basketball? Because I did not.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
I knew that.
And I saw someone say that about Rich and assumed they were right. What I found was that he finished 2nd in “Player of the Year” voting in Florida his senior season.
Yeah...His HS senior year woulda been been a kid from Orlando
that went to Memphis.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but did Doug Edwards not go to FSU?
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah...he was a Mr. Basketball in Florida
But Wikipedia doesn’t have his college listed. Bastards give FSU no love, man.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 19, 2010 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
McPherson was Mr. Basketball and Mr. Fooball. Crazy.
Process > Results
by TBfisherman on Jan 19, 2010 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
I'm speaking in the context that you know that these guys could do much better
If they had a little coaching.
Besides, I remember a 30-0 game where our superior talent got their assess handed to them by Wake Forest.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
It didn't. Your first comment contended that Superior talent was trumped by his poor coordinating
Also, you contended that Ham didn’t get the most out of his recruits. That we could have a court full of all-americans and still not be sucessful.
I think many FSU fans feel the same thing about Jeff. IMO a decent comparison. What I fail to see is the “process” comparison.
Did we get better under Jeff? Are we improving under Ham?
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
I don't look at process the way you do.
Process is the actual ball play. Cutting down turnovers, making good reads, getting in good rebounding position, etc.
You, imo, are talking about results. The results are better. The process is still poor. The only reason the results are better is because the recruits/players are better. It has little to do with our coaching.
Gotcha
Our players still do the same dumb shit, and fall short in the same areas as former teams, but since we have better players, it’s not as evident as it seems, because their athleticism cover it up.
Makes sense. I’ll buy it.
However, I think the results are “better” by FSU standards. By the standards of other similarly structured programs, it is not. Correct?
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
Which other programs are you talking about?
And yes, our results the past 5 years are much better than the results the 10 years prior. I don’t agree with using that to call Hamilton a “success”, though (not saying that’s what you’re implying).
Other programs?
Examples like Alabama (speaking of the football/basketball relationship), Miami, Auburn, Georgia, LSU, Arkansas
Teams in the south that rival FSU’s enrollment size, and put football one foot ahead of basketball.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
UT, UF, MSU, LSU, Clemson, SoCar, UM are all “football schools”, I think, that are either on par with us or better basketball programs. I’d say our results are worse than the average of that group.
We can pick schools for both sides of the argument,
but UT, UF, and LSU (throw Ohio State and Tennessee) into this mold as well. FSU can’t match their athletic budgets, alumni, etc. We’re big, but not a state-school monster like UT or UF.
Who is MSU? I hope you’re referring to the Bulldogs.
I disagree with LSU to an extent. They’re very up and down. Good tourney run a couple years ago. Stinking it up now.
I would also differ with Clemson. I think we’re on par with what they’re doing.
Also, who is UM? We have many states that begin with the same letter, so abbreviations are really inconvenient.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 19, 2010 12:02 AM EST up reply actions
I was only talking ACC/SEC, since you specifically said "in the south".
UT Tennessee
UM Miami
MSU Miss State
LSU has made a Final Four fairly recently. We haven’t made it to the Sweet Sixteen in almost 2 decades.
Clemson has made more NCAATs than us this decade but is a team I’d put about on par with us.
Miami has a 2nd round appearance a few years back under Haith.
SoCar is on par.
Tenn is much better.
Florida is much, much better.
Miss State is much better.
Even Ole Miss is on par with us.
We are below the average of the group.
Right. We are below average.
In fact, I think I listed programs that I considered FSU to be better than by comparison, instead of the programs you listed.
We are below average, but we do much better than some, and much worse than some.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 19, 2010 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
Why would it be a mistake, let alone a "huge" one?
You didn’t answer my question in regards to whether or not it would be acceptable for football (oh wait, we’ve been there, done that with football, and we DID make a change).
And if he recruits better than many top-tier schools, why are we not ranked? It doesn’t matter how great your players were as recruits if they don’t win, if you don’t get the most out of their talents, if your team consistently underachieves.
great question
however you must admit we’re a football school – and while our hoops program is on the rise, aside from the brief kennedy era, we’re traditionally a mid-tier program – we’re not unc or kentucky – and while our football program is top tier, its simply unrealistic to expect the same level of success from our hoops -
how quickly you forget the years when we had zero big wins, zero nba talent, no enthusiasm over our program and now real prospect of making teh tourney
ham has changed a lot of that – and yes, he’s clearly not perfect, and his offense is and has always been poor –
but ham recruits really well, runs a clean program, gets his kids to buy in, puts kids into the association w/out the budget or prestige of the big programs…
I'm not talking about winning national titles.
I want results equal to the talent being recruited. This is a VERY talented club but the actual play on the court isn’t impressive.
last year's team overachieved
This year’s team is where they should be relative to the talent level that is playing right now. Young teams are inconsistent. Ask Roy Williams. Should UNC fire him?
if Roy had CHam's track record over the last decade
you better believe UNC would can his ass
last year's ACC COY
Process > Results
by TBfisherman on Jan 18, 2010 5:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I agree tricknole
Hamilton needs to go. Great recruiter, average coach. And he can take Mike Martin with him as well. Men’s basketball and baseball both need new coaches.
Striker: "Surely you can't be serious!" Rumack: "I am serious... and don't call me Shirley."
So for entertainment purposes (and I don't have the answer to this)...who do you want to see coaching the Noles? Or...who should be coaching the Noles?
www.Tomahawknation.com
Like, names of possible head coaches for FSU basketball?
If Ham were to quit, or be fired…hypothetically? Is that what you’re asking?
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
It's so hard to think of coaches for sports other than football.
There are much more schools participating in DI and most of them are much harder to follow at all, let alone closely.
Jay Wright
Jamie Dixon
Matt Painter
Can’t think of a single small school’s coach I know of and want as our coach. My 2nd team is Dayton, and I like what Brian Gregory’s done there post-Oliver Purnell, but I feel like they are a mirror image of FSU right now. Very athletic, good defense, and a very poor jumpshooting/free throw team. They do run quite a few successful set pieces that you see to start the game, half or out of timeouts, which is always great to see.
I think Dixon makes about $1.5M/year, which is what Hamilton now makes. I would be all for throwing $2M/year at any of these guys. Not sure if it’d work. They’re all at better basketball schools than FSU and currently better programs.
Are we naming realistic candidates? Or guys we'd LIKE to see at FSU
All of the above are good, I just don’t think any of those guys would leave where they are…
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
If we're going to go "realistic", this is what I got
Sean Miller (Xavier), Scott Drew (Baylor), Brad Stevens (Butler), Mike Wojciechowski (Duke Assistant), or Tim Tebow.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 9:39 PM EST up reply actions
who the hell is 'mike wojciechowski'?
is that steves (gay) little brother?
Assistant at Duke...
Supposedly has an incredible basketball mind, but is probably in line to take over the Blue Devils once Coach K shrivels up and dies in Cameron Indoor.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 9:56 PM EST up reply actions
sorry - im just messing w/ you -
his name is steve wojo and he’s an annoying little expletive -
to call him an incredible basketball mind is very generous –
coach k is renowned for letting his assistants do precious little – and for lining up a bunch of pathetic ass-kissing assistants to create a very unified and supportive atmosphere
(although some think he wants no strong personalities around him b/c he’s such an egomaniac)
Wow
How do you really feel about that situation?
I’ve just heard that he’s a sharp guy, and that he’s probably gonna get the Duke job.
Doesn’t surprise me though, as the basketball operations director is Coach K’s son-in-law I think.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
i wouldnt be surprised
that program IS coach k – he is the unrivaled fuhrer and he makes sure everyone knows it and to his credit, the system seems to work
It usually does when you have ONE guy in charge.
See: FSU Football 2009
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
Haha, Randy, your top candidate (although I know you didn't rank them, you just coincidentally listed him first) isn't even at Xavier anymore.
Hired by Arizona last offseason.
Aaaaaah...well, that shows how astute I am at recognizing talent
I’m glad someone realized how good he was. Those Xavier teams were really fun to watch.
Also, whoever Alabama hired. I think it was the guy from VCU. I like him too.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
Alabama can't win a close game right now
we do win our share of close ones
Except for all our big games last year
Duke, UNC, Duke (tourney), Wisconsin…
I gotta admit, I don’t follow Bama basketball very closely. However, I do remember thinking that he’ll do pretty good there, as I think his VCU teams made some noise.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
And...
while we are doing well in “close games” this year, do you see who they’re against? Of our 8 close games, only one was against a team that is currently ranked.
are 16-4 in games decided by 5 or less last 2 yrs
Am not making the point we are consistently beating ranked teams. But that we win close games, which is a good barometer of improvement. and not judging Anthony Grant’s overall ability as a coach. He doesn’t even have his own players yet. But he is in games with what he has and can’t close it out. Presumably, that will come with time. But LH has at least gotten to that point already. Alabama is very similar to us. Football school w/ sporadic bball success.
I still don't agree with the "close games" stat.
What if Grant is losing close games to better teams? He lost a close one to FSU, who is clearly more talented. FSU is winning close games against lesser teams. It’s deceiving.
grant is 2-2 in 5 point games
so not much sample. Beat Baylor & Michigan. Lost to Vandy & Cornell. Birmingham News (where I live) ran an article today about them not being able to get over the hump in close games. They included losses to Purdue & most recently to Arkansas in which they fell apart at the end in relatively close games.
However, our competition in close ones is not as bad as you make it. Our 4 close losses are Wis (in Idaho), Duke (Cameron), UNC (Tally), & BC (up there). Wins include: last team to beat UNC last yr at Georgia Dome (basically home for them), GT at Georgia Dome when they are playing there best last yr, VT (there), Clem (there), GT, Marquette (neutral), UF, Cal (neutral), Maryland & Auburn. hesitant to include AU but kentucky did just beat them by 5 so they go in.
You're talking about Grant this year.
I’m talking about us this year.
What was Hamilton in his first year at FSU?
Grant has a lot more talent
than LH started with. LH has grown the program steadily. I understand why it’s too slow for you and many others. His first 4-5 yrs he simply wasn’t in a position to get a Snaer out of Cal or the PG we’re getting from NC next yr. I do agree he has to deliver now though. By that I don’t mean this yr, but this yr & the next 2. If he can’t start winning NCAA tourney games by then, he’s just a guy that can get you to that point but no further and you can him. He will have made it alot easier for the next guy in that scenario though.
You'd give him until 2012 to win his first NCAAT game?
And it’s very likely we would’ve gotten Miller out of NC in Ham’s first few years here and it still would’ve been possible we got Snaer.
No
I said sweet 16 the 2 yrs after this yr. Because those yrs he has an athletic, long, experienced team with depth. You have no excuses then.
There is no way we get snaer or Miller back then. Do you remember the team before LH got here? He had Pickett (who could compete athletically) and 4 guys no one remembers and no one on the bench. A comparable starting five off the present team would be Reid, Kitchen, Demercy, Loucks, and Jordan, with 4 Mangums sitting on the bench. It was by far the worst team in the ACC and no one wanted to play at FSU.
He first got anyone he could that could compete athletically, which is when we had the 4 guard lineup. Then started building depth and has finally gotten to a complete team 1 through 5 with depth. But you don’t do that over night without a bball tradition. and lets face it. FL isn’t a bball state.
well put
people forget that we were the duke football of acc basketball, and our recruiting momentum was in reverse
Do you know why we landed Snaer and Miller?
Hamilton has known Miller’s father for decades and said early on he wanted his son to go to FSU because he knew he’d be brought up right by Coach Ham.
And Hamilton also had connections with Snaer’s AAU coach. On top of that, Snaer was an underrated, late-bloomer type that Hamilton found early on and that hard work paid off in the end. Snaer is a classy kid and not the stereotypical hotshot basketball recruit. He showed his appreciation and loyalty to Hamilton. I say it’s possible.
He landed two 4 stars out of Maryland in the 04 class. He landed two 5 stars in the 03 class (Georgia and Louisiana). So he was clearly able to recruit outside of the state and recruit well. His first season as coach was 02-03, so he was landing good talent early on.
And you said if Hamilton “can’t start winning NCAA tourney games by” “this yr & the next 2” “then, he’s just a guy that can get you to that point but no further and you can him.” I didn’t see Sweet Sixteen in there anywhere, and it sounded like a single win by the 2012 season was good enough. So do you expect a NCAAT win this year? Do you expect (demand) the Sweet Sixteen both in 2011 and 2012 or just one of the two?
are you talking to me?
b/c i don’t want to burden you with having to read beyond subject lines -
i know that’s a strenuous task in a conversation..
Well if you click the "up" button you would have realized that I was not talking to you.
Ironic that I was the one called immature, yet I’m not the one still dragging it on.
I answered your subject line question in my entire previous comment. You asked me a question I literally just thoroughly answered for you. If my comment wasn’t being read, I didn’t feel the need to continue reading yours. It’s nothing personal. You aren’t the first and won’t be the last poster on here I’ve done that to (unless the other times I’ve done it were to you, too).
Alabama is a decent comparison...
They don’t face the basketball competition we do, and we don’t face the football competition they do.
Interstingly enough…Ham’s stats are a little comparable to what Gottfried did at Bama over 8 years, especially if you throw out Gottfried’s first 2 years.
Maybe we should see what Grant does, and follow suit!
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
Nice backstory there...
Anthony Grant is who Alabama hired from VCU. He’s from Miami and coached under Billy Donovan at Florida, but played ball at the University of Dayton (did I mention they were my #2 team?), Xavier’s big rival (could also throw crosstown rival Cincinnati in there as their big rival). Xavier has had a tremendous amount of coaching talent the past 15 years. Skip Prosser coached there before being hired by Wake Forest. Their next coach was Thad Matta, now at Ohio State. He was followed up by Sean Miller, now at Arizona. Their current coach pegged the ball at a UD players face on an inbounds pass back in the late 80’s.
I think those are the types we should target.
I, myself, stated they may all turn us down, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t ask and I would be completely in favor of giving them $2M+/year. I would hate to “settle” for someone less proven without even contacting a bigger name coach. I think Drew would be pretty good (good suggestion on your part). Stevens may be good but I’d want a little more success under his belt before I’d be comfortable with the hire.
Martin still wins quite a bit, just never the big one.
I feel like I contradict myself with Martin. He does underachieve. He isn’t a top notch recruiter, though, so I don’t honestly expect the College World Series every year, but certainly every few. But he still wins consistently and we always make it to postseason play. While I would love it if he retired and we hired the hot name coach of the moment, I can’t say I’d fire him. Not unless we failed to make postseason play.
We've been once since 2000
He has been spared by the mediocrity of football, had football been successful people would have scrutinized him more. Just like football, baseball has changed in the last decade where as Martin has not.
Can we just not renew his contract next time around?
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
I think he's only on a year to year contract.
I think. I really don’t see him leaving anytime soon. Not unless his health deteriorates. He’s only going to be 66 this upcoming season. I do think the game’s passed himself and maybe his assistants up, both in game management and recruiting. I don’t see us forcing him out unless we miss the postseason.
Jamie Shoop has never been a very good pitching coach. He can coach kids that pitch like he did, location based, but that’s about it. Many people have problems with him. Meat can coach though. I fully expect him to be the head coach when 11 retires otherwise he probably would have taken the Wake job last year.
He didn't turn down Wake. He wasn't their top choice.
And if Meat is the next head coach I will be upset.
From what I understand he wasn’t their top choice but he wasn’t completely interested in it.
I think FSU should look around but I don’t have a problem with Meat being the next HC because I think he’s the reason we keep going to the post season. He would need to hire a good pitching coach though. I don’t want Meat if he keeps Shouppe around.
Yeah, a lot of people have that requirement. I can understand that and I agree that FSU should look around as there are a lot of good HCs out there that could come to FSU. I just think that Meat should be part of the search and I don’t have a problem with him being pegged for the next HC as long as he gets rid of Shouppe.
hopefully mike martin turns it up a notch after seeing what happened to bowden...
they pretty much mean the same to their respective sports at fsu, or at the very least have a lot in common (aside from glaring 0 national titles).
never
he’s brought his team to the ncaa tourney every year he’s been HC, but the problem is we typically go into regional play ranked in the top 10, coast through regionals, and in the supers, his style of play kills him when it matters most. we almost always take a strike before swinging, and he has no problem bringing in a RP for a one-pitch outing.
in the postseason, i’d like to see us get more aggressive at the plate, and not put ourselves in a hole when it comes to pitching.
I have zero issues with this
we almost always take a strike before swinging,
and
he has no problem bringing in a RP for a one-pitch outing.
As long as that one pitch results in an out I take no issue with that either
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
i agree
that’s what gets us in the postseason every year.
it’s great strategy, but i think we need to be less predictable and gamble a little bit when we’ve got a potential ncaa title on the line. i feel like we get down in the count too early and it puts a lot of pressure on the batter.
and when he plays the matchup game from the bullpen, he sometimes doesn’t seem to care if we’ll need him later in the game
We were 2nd in walks last year
I would venture to say even if they were down early they were able to battle back and earn a walk.
When you are in the playoffs you can’t worry about what you are going to do 3 innings later, you have to do what is best for your team in the current situation. I give him a pass for last year, there wasn’t one bullpen arm that could throw strikes.
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
how effective do you think shoupe is as our pitching coach?
there’s only so much you can do against metal bats, but our pitchers seem to get psyched out when it matters most
FSU doesn't have a great track record for developing pitching
I let you interpret that how you want
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
I don't think it was that much worse
They gave up more walks and more HRs than 2008
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
It was worse but not that much
90% of our innings were pitched by FR and SO.
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
I was talking about players getting worse, across the board, from 2008 to 2009.
Not poor pitching due to youth.
Only 5 pitchers had legitimate innings in 2008 and of them I think only 2 really regressed in 2009, Marshall and O’Dell. With their regression the obviously saw reduced innings.
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
I guess the increased walks are what really stood out in my mind.
On the flip side of only 2 really regressing, I only see one that I’d say really improved (Everett). McGee, Marshall and Parker all either bettered their K or H but really saw spikes in their BB as well. Can I call “lack of improvement with added experience” regression? lol
Our BB/9 were last in the conference
Anytime you are worse than WF at anything baseball related it is a serious problem
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
Shoop seems to believe every pitcher should pitch the same, every wind up should look the same. I think he tends to tinker too much and tries to pigeon hole all his pitchers into his kind of pitcher. It works for some pitchers like Henry and Gili but not so much on others.
Shouppe*
It seems we rarely have power arms. A lot of recent recruits we brought to campus who were fastball guys didn’t last long here.
he has no problem bringing in a RP for a one-pitch outing.
This is a problem because we never develp depth at the pitching spot. Through the whole season we’ll depend on 4-5 starters and 2-3 relievers. Unfortunately one or two of those starters ends up being a reliever by seasons end so we try to go through the season with 7 – 8 pitchers. That works fine in a season setting because you have rest days between your games and one loss doesn’t kill you. However, we are doomed to fail in a tournament setting because we have an empty pen by game 2 of the finals (regionals or supers).
That all reverts back to poor pitching development
I am a big fan of playing the matchups when it comes to relief pitching. Last year was just ridiculous, we had nobody in the pen that could come in and throw a strike.
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
That KILLS me!
This is a problem because we never develp depth at the pitching spot.
We play all these scrubs mid-week and early on in the season and we NEVER get young guys some innings for future depth/development.
Hopefully that will change
Since 90% of our innings last year were by FR and SO
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
How much time did Wood, Scantling, etc. get early on/at all?
Fairel barely even played his FR year despite being good enough to get drafted as a SO. There are many more examples.
I don't recall
Scantling should be the closer this year and Wood isn’t on the team anymore
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
I know Wood isn't.
Nor is that one pitcher from Texas a few years back who left after his first year as well. I have a problem with O’Dell getting as many starts as Scantling and Wood, though. A serious problem.
Unless he’s improved his deliver I’m not sold on Scantling. He broadcasts his offspeed stuff with a slower arm speed. It’s really bad. The few games I saw of his in person I could tell almost exactly when the heater was coming. He’s just lucky that his fastball is good enough to do that with. He get hammered more often than not if he keeps that up.
It is really out of his hands out this point
He doesn’t have an understanding of how baseball is played anymore and he is too old and stubborn to learn IMO.
Any more 2nd inning bunts with a runner on 1st and no outs this year and I think I might jump off a bridge.
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
We don't really have the bats to play gorilla ball, though.
But I agree, in college, where you’ve got the aluminum bats, you shouldn’t give up an out and potential rally in that situation.
We hit .321 as a team with 89 bombs.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
IMO College baseball IS Gorilla Ball
But considering FSU to play Gorilla ball within the current system is debatable.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
We had a great balance of power and patience
Ranked 2nd in walks
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
I think we had a very good offense, I just wouldn't call it gorilla ball-like.
Maybe you or Randy are privy to the HR numbers for all teams from last year.
Can't find them.
Already tried. I just offered FSU’s stats. I didn’t claim we played gorilla ball, as I think the whole thing is out of control.
I do think that playing National league style ball in the SuperRegionals has hurt FSU though.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 19, 2010 12:13 AM EST up reply actions
Formula for a very good and balanced offense
2nd in walks
7th in runs
18th in SLG
21st in HR
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
Be interested to see the RISP....
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 19, 2010 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
Baseball does an piss poor job of keeping stats
They don’t have OBP or WHIP as a sortable stat, drives me crazy
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
WHIP might be the most useful stat invented in my lifetime.
Can tell a lucky pitcher from a good pitcher.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 19, 2010 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
Isn't that Fielding Independent?
Some crazy formula to do with HR’s and a league coefficient or something?
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 19, 2010 12:22 AM EST up reply actions
For the most part
There are actually a few different formulas for it, but its gets the point across
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
actually nevermind, there is no team obp
sorry i misread your post, but yeah theres no WHIP or team OBP, just individual
Beat me to it.
I’d like to see if this stat is an anomaly…perhaps 2009 was different.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 19, 2010 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
Unfotunately it was only kept as a team stat for 2 years but here you go:
http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/rankings?sportCode=MBA&rpt=wkly
08-09: #1
07-08: #2
I’m not sure how anybody can have much of a problem with our offense. 11 doesn’t call for nearly as many bunts. The only problem I could possibly see if pinch hitting but that’s a crap shoot IMO.
I have no problem with bunting as long as the situation calls for it
I would kill myself if I had to watch a BC game, the had 72 to our 33
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
BC doesn't needs bunting skills.
The patron saint of baseball (St. Jeter) guides the ball in the intended direction.
His powers are only limited to the infield, however, Otherwise, BC would be unbeatable.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 19, 2010 12:44 AM EST up reply actions
i personally think small ball is awesome
but yes in the right situations bunting is very effective.
holt’s .520 OBP and his 87 runs (2nd in ncaa) make him deadly
It is awesome. In the majors.
In college ball, I get bored. I loooooove the PIIIIIIIIIIIIING!
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 19, 2010 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think so.
It’s been discussed for years, and I certainly think that another death on the field may change things.
However, I think revenues will suffer.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 19, 2010 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
The difference isn’t as great between the metal and wooden bats anymore. After LSU played HR derby the NCAA changed the specifications of the metal bats.
im pretty sure all teams are required to use the same stat software
the software is definitely archaic, i’ve used it to keep the official scorebook on it a few times and the only stats it computes are the typewriter-like reports on seminoles.com. i don’t remember there being options for stats like OPS and WHIP, but if there were, sports info probably finds it unnecessary to publish it to anyone other than coaches and teams
You got any software engineering buddies?
Maybe we could make some money off the NCAA!
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 19, 2010 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
no, but there are few software options
and the one perk to this particular software is the ability to link it real-time to gametracker
All you gotta do is click baseball, then select accordingly fromt the dropdowns.
Pretty easy to figure out.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 19, 2010 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
boy, you got that right on the bunting. No Top 25 college baseball team
should ever bunt. FSU is batting .330 as a team and he is bunting.
I mean thats a crime against Sabermetricians everywhere.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
I was just fixing to comment on that.
Bunting in college baseball when you’re team is hitting above the .325 mark? I agree with Rays comments about aggressiveness. When you’re aggressive with talented players, usually good things will happen.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
he plays the averages as if we were bethune-cookman. yeah getting the runner in scoring position will get you runs x% of the time, but we’ve had a hot offense the last few years and he squanders it. when we get on a rally, we cause some serious damage.
Using batting average is a crime against Sabermetricians everywhere.
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
that is an unarguable point, of course. But I guess I am saying you
don’t even have to get into any complex sabermetric stats to know that FSU should not bunt. Ever. Nor should any college baseball team.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
Also, college players don't get near the practice time MLB players get.
Which means less time to practice bunting, which is an art. Plus, it’s damn hard to do that shit against a 92mph gasser with all of the engineering advances applied to the “sweet spot” of modern bats.
I mean, how much bunting practice do these kids get, ya think?
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
Riiiiiight...
I played a year of college baseball. Bunting was an afterthought. I didn’t play for Coach Martin (who I’m sure teaches it), but it was mainly for pitchers and speedy outfielders.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 19, 2010 12:04 AM EST up reply actions
Even if Hamilton had some NCAA Tournament success in his tenure at FSU (which
he has not), one could argue it might be time to make a change anyway. He’s been in Tally what, 8 years now, and he’ll be 62 this year.
And Mike Martin will be 65. Must we have octogenarians coaching every team at FSU?
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
so you change coaches every 8 years?
you know many people think cohesion and stability are actually good for a program…
Zero NCAA tournament wins? I mean, I hear he is graduating the students, and
the program appears to have been scandal-free the entire time he has been here, but again, zero tournament wins? How many NBA-drafted players has he had in his time at FSU? How do we not classify that as underachieving?
Anyway, I am not in the “fire Hamilton” camp…yet. But those folks who are are making some strong arguments.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
I would like to know what you consider successful.
He’s been successful at turning the program around. He hasn’t been successful at being successful, though.
you bring up the most salient point -
success isnt a ‘one size fits all’ idea
success at unc is very different from success at fsu – and i think finishing in the top half (3rd last year) of the acc, competing for and making the tourney – getting top 20 recruiting classes and getting these kids to buy in (see von wafer) – graduating kids – putting kids into the nba (in the 1st round) and running a clean program is success at fsu
please recall that aside from the brief (and likely dirty) kennedy years we consistently finished bottom third of the acc – didnt compete for making the tourny, didnt put kids into the nba and had no tradition or history of success -
Our history is inconsequential to my expectations.
When we have top 25 talent, I expect to have a top 25 team. I am not setting unrealistic goals like win the ACC once every 5 years, win a national title once every 20, make the Sweet Sixteen every other year, etc.. All I want is for our talent to consistently perform up to their capabilities. We consistently fail to do that. That is what I call success. I do not expect us to turn into UNC/UK/UCLA/KU. I expect us to be the best we can be and we just aren’t.
by tricknole on Jan 18, 2010 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
you really dont factor in our history when setting your expectations?
i think most do – which is why everyone understands why kentucky ran tubby smith out of town – or unc got rid of both guthrie and doherty or notre dame fires willingham – or uf got rid of zook – the history of a program matters a lot
and ham has turned our program from an inconsequential also-ran that didnt have any recruits, momentum or success into something at least relevant and competitive – and he’s done it the right way and he now has a solid program that he can build on (as opposed to teams like tech that sell themselves as 1-n-done factories just to compete for a season)
i agree- we under perform and his offense struggles- but id rather have top-shelf talent that underwhelms in the ncaa tourney instead of crappy talent that performs to their capabilities to the tune of 10th in the acc -
I agree with both points, oddly enough.
And there’s a damn good chance that they’re both valid. One says fire Ham now, another says give him a little more time,..He’s brought our program so far that he deserves a little respect/leeway for that (sound familiar?).
There are 2 kinds of coaches…Ones that get fired and ones that haven’t been fired yet. Didn’t Bobby used to mumble that junk at some point?
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
I read you subject and quit reading.
To answer: No. I explained my reasoning for not factoring in our history when setting expectations in the same post.
by the way, UVa needed a jumper with 2.2 seconds to go to beat UNC-Wilmington 69-67
tonight? At home even? This is the first place team in the ACC?
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
I think the ACC will be shaken up quite a bit. So many young teams that will evolve.
Process > Results
by TBfisherman on Jan 18, 2010 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
im going to have to disagree w/ you here
duke and unc are still sitting on top 3 classes almost every year -
fair enough - this year will be very interesting...
but it looks like duke is the class of teh acc- and unc just won the title last year and put 3 players in the nba (and d green was kicking around earlier this season), so its not like we can call them down in any real sense..
I feel like 8-11 Georgia State gave us all we could handle on our home court this season.
The ACC is down compared to what is expected of it, but it is very competitive top to bottom.
I agree there...acc down and mainly because the top teams have come back to the
pack a bit. Although it appears picking Duke to win the ACC regular season would not be too hasty.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
GT could realistically give them a run IMO
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
Explain?
Just because we beat GT in one game we possess the consistency to contend game in and game out enough to give Duke a run?
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
Why does GT realistically have a chance?
Is the only reason you’re saying that is because they beat UNC at UNC? Is that different than us beating GT at GT? Does GT play more consistently than us?
Nope. Why would I use a one game argument when I'm refuting your comment with the same argument?
Plus, if the ACC is that evenly matched, GT has already beaten Duke and NC, which gives them a tiebreaker advantage should arise.
And yes…GT does play more consistent than we do. Ryan Reid had the game of his life to beat GT. That’s not consistent. We’re inconsistent…we were good that night.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 19, 2010 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
Yep!
I think that we’ll see a freaking logjam at season’s end. Someone’s going to be PISSED come tournament time. That line will be thinner than ever.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 18, 2010 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
logjam...no doubt. Someone at Tomahawk Nation needs to do an analysis and
discover how the ACC Tourney bracket would work out if everyone in the league finishes 8-8, which I consider a distinct possibility!!!!
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
that is the bigger point
and the reason CHam is still here. FSU is satisfied with middle of the road teams, especially if they bring some hype – which they will as long as CHam brings the recruits. But CHam has reached the plateau. If FSU wants the program to goto the next level, staff changes are needed.
Is it easy? No. So the question becomes, does FSU risk slipping backwards at the chance of taking the next step? If this was football, you better believe FSU would be taking the risk. But it isnt, so they arent. And here we sit.
well put
although i think there is reason to believe that (aside from injuries or early defections) we should be looking at our best team next year since the ward/casell/sura/douglas/dobard era
and you raise a key point – do we really think many coaches we could hire would be able to match the talent and caliber kids ham has?
Well, there'll be a new sheriff in town (presumably). Texas goes down:
http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/boxscore?gameId=201001180288&refreshRate=30
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
that kinda sucks
i can’t stand the thought of calipari being #1
Yeah...They'll stay that way till mid-Feb, too (possibly longer), so get used to it.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 19, 2010 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
true
the sec is soft this year, and uk only has like 2 difficult games left…
Yeah...both against UT.
Maybe Ole Miss…the SEC is WEAK
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 19, 2010 1:22 AM EST up reply actions
Miss State, Florida, Vandy and South Carolina are capable of beating them.
As well as the 2 you mentioned. Maybe even Bama if they have a good night and UK is off.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
SHOP THE TOMAHAWK NATION STORE
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
