Closing The Book On The 2009 Florida State Defense
Author's Note: while we have been very critical of Chuck Amato's coaching, he is in our thoughts and prayers as the long-time Florida State linebackers coach is undergoing treatment for what is rumored to be cancer. Football is a game, and it is things like this that remind us just how insignificant that game really is.
This is the third in a followup on last year's "did Florida State improve in 2008?" article. While last year it was appropriate to ask whether the 'Nole's 2008 season was an improvement over the 2007 campaign, there is no debate about the 2009 team. It definitely regressed as a whole. So for this series, I will look at the new highs and lows set by Florida State's offense, defense, and special teams. I ask where the team was better on the field because there is no doubt as to whether the program is in better shape now than it was at any point in this millennium's first decade. FSU has leadership for the first time in a long while, and the improvements made in recruiting by the new coaches are nothing short of staggering as the 'Noles recruiting class has rocketed from 34th on the day Bobby Bowden retired to what is now a guaranteed top 10 recruiting class.
Before you read this, please check out part one (scheduling and context issues) and part two (offense). Today we tackle the defense-- something the defense often failed to do. The conclusions in this article are far less surprising than those drawn in the offensive analysis. Let's start with some history. Last off-season I wrote:
According to the best available measures, the offense and the defense were about equal (21st and 19th). Both units cost the Noles a game this year. The offense was horrible in the Wake game. The defense was horrible in the Georgia Tech game (31 points, 400 yards and over 8 yards per play before GT's QB went down due to injury). Both units played poorly against Boston College and Florida.
As I explained above there is no way that the defense should have been equal to the offense this year. The offense wildly exceeded the expectation of even the most optimistic reasonable observer. On the other hand, the defense massively underwhelmed the expected performance of most knowledgeable observers.
In short, the offense improved this year despite many obstacles. They appear to be well coached and should return 9 of 11 starters in 2009. [They actually returned 7 as Parker and Furlong left the team.] I expect this unit to again improve as players gain a further understanding of the scheme, and develop physically and mentally.
Given all the factors, I believe the defense regressed in 2008. If this defense performs at this same level next year, stand up and celebrate. The losses in the offseason will be substantial and Andrews has not shown the ability to adapt to changes in the game, be they strategic (the new clock rules, placing more emphasis on the running game) or schematic (the spread, and most disturbingly the reemergence of the zone read). He clearly has lost the ability to convey information and relate to young people, as his own players repeatedly expressed their confusion in his scheme in throwing the defensive coaching staff under the proverbial bus with their comments. Andrews and company have done a horrible job developing the younger players who will be counted on to produce next year. If changes are not made, this unit could be shockingly bad. Undoubtedly we will hear the excuse of youth, followed quickly by his increasingly contentious answers blaming the players and refusing to accept any responsibility for the staff's inability to teach football to college kids at an advanced level.
All of this pretty much happened. While Tomahawk Nation had the most extreme premonitions that a horrible defense was about to come, even we came up short in our predictions as the Florida State defense was the 2nd worst among all the BCS conference teams. FSU should be very happy that Washington State is around. This piece isn't about slamming the 2009 defense. The players played as hard as they could. But just how bad was that defense? In order to judge the expected improvement in the coming season, we must know the true level of the previous year's unit. Here's a pretty defining chart:

That is one painful chart. FSU's defense was not only the worst since ACC expansion, but also 10% worse than any ACC defense since 2004 (we do not have records of conference, only statistics from before 2004). This unit was worse than the defenses Duke fielded in 2004 or 2005 or 2006. And this defense posted that embarrassing mark without the "help" of facing the conference's best offense. But it often allowed lesser opponents to post their best day, and in fact every offense the Seminoles defense went up against managed its best or second-best offensive performance of the season. And to think, Florida State fans believed the coaches when they denied that closing practices was due to defensive embarrassment. After this season, it seems those reports of 400-yard quarters during the Fall mini-scrimmages were accurate.
But much like the offense trended down until FSU could have no more, this defense has been in a slow tailspin since the early part of the decade. Each small step forward was met with gigantic leaps back (2007 and this season). And those leaps corresponded with the failure to replace competent coaches (like Kevin Steele and Jim Gladden) with reasonably competent coaches. FSU fans are hopeful that the new defensive staff can turn things around in short order.
While the above figures are hard to swallow, they do make sense because most of the ACC plays each other. But when factoring in all games, things get a bit hairy. According to the NCAA, FSU ranked 108th out of 120 teams in defense. But they weren't really that bad. Why? Context, of course. If you read part one, you'd know that FSU played one of the most difficult schedules in the country. While they may have given up a yards per game total placing them 108th in the rankings, not every team faced a slate as grueling as the Seminoles. But how to account for the differences in scheduling? Advanced metrics are very effective. NFL teams are using these to make million-dollar decisions but there are only a few guys actively trying to apply the principles to the college game. Brian Fremeau's Efficiency Index is a good place to start:
Adjusted Defensive Efficiency is the opponent-adjusted value of and Defensive Efficiency, explained here. Like FEI, the multiple-order adjustments are weighted according to both the strength of the opponent and the relative significance of the result; efficiency against a team's best competition faced is given more relevance weight. ADE represents a team's value over/under average. Negative ADE are the most valuable.
NOTE: remember that FEI automatically adjusts for rules changes because it measures performance on drives, as opposed to only games. It also doesn't count non-competitive drives (drives where the game is locked up, for instance a drive when a team leads by 40 in the 4th quarter). This explains why FSU got little credit for crushing UAB and DUKE in the 2007 ratings. FSU received zero credit for their wins against the I-AA competition in 2008.
- In 2006, the 'Noles had the 31st best Adjusted Defensive Efficiency
- In 2007, the 'Noles had the 34th best Adjusted Defensive Efficiency
- In 2008, the 'Noles had the 23rd best Adjusted Defensive Efficiency
- In 2009, the 'Noles had the 92nd best Adjusted Defensive Efficiency. For some context, Florida International had the 91st best Adjusted Defensive Efficiency. Western Kentucky had the 93rd best.
That's an enormous drop. For three years, FSU's defense hovered around the top 1/5th or top 1/6th of all teams. In 2009, they dropped into the bottom quarter. Was FSU's 2009 defense that much worse than the 2008 unit? Anecdotally, I'll submit that it was not. I believe that the 2008 defense was tremendously lucky, and the 2009 defense was slightly unlucky. FSU fans will remember that the 2008 squad had an amazing ability to injure opposing quarterbacks. That's not a repeatable skill. If it were, perhaps FSU's 2009 defense might have fared a bit better. That is why statistics do not always tell the whole story. While they are the record of what happened, they might not always indicate why something did or did not happen.
But Adjusted Defensive Efficiency is only one advanced measure of defense. Bill Connelly's S&P+ figure is also a good measure. If Bill's are close to Brian's, I feel much better about using these measurements.
The S&P+ Ratings are a college football ratings system derived from the play-by-play data of all 800+ of a season's FBS college football games (and 140,000+ plays). There are three key components to the S&P+:
* Success Rate: A common Football Outsiders tool used to measure efficiency by determining whether every play of a given game was successful or not. The terms of success in college football: 50 percent of necessary yardage on first down, 70 percent on second down, and 100 percent on third and fourth down.
* EqPts Per Play (PPP): An explosiveness measure derived from determining the point value of every yard line (based on the expected number of points an offense could expect to score from that yard line) and, therefore, every play of a given game.
* Opponent adjustments: Success Rate and PPP combine to form S&P, an OPS-like measure for football. Then each team's S&P output for a given category (Rushing/Passing on either Standard Downs or Passing Downs) is compared to the expected output based upon their opponents and their opponents' opponents. This is a schedule-based adjustment designed to reward tougher schedules and punish weaker ones.The S&P+ figures used in the tables below only look at the plays that took place while a game was deemed "close," or competitive. The criteria for being "close" are as follows: a game within 24 points in the first quarter, with 21 points in the second quarter, and within 16 points in the second half.
- In 2007, the 'Noles had the 28st best S&P+ Defense
- In 2008, the 'Noles had the 55th best S&P+ Defense
- In 2009, the 'Noles had the 80th best S&P+ Defense
It appears that Bill's figures may have had a better handle on the true level of FSU's defensive play in 2008. I'm not sure how Bill filtered out the luck that helped the 2008 team, but somehow he did. In much of the same way, his system was not quite as down on the 'Nole's 2009 defense.
Here was Bill's thought on this FSU team:
Ranking ninth in Offensive S&P+ and 80th in Defensive S&P+, the Seminoles sent Bobby Bowden out a winner with what was actually some pretty stellar defensive play (at times, at least). It is hard to know what to do with the Seminoles for 2010. They return plenty of playmakers, but we have no idea what a new staff will do with them, and we have no idea what was holding back the clearly talented squads of recent years. We think we know, but it's sometimes too easy to blame something simply on bad coaching or poor management. We'll see.
One key difference between Bill's system and Brian's system is that Brian's system is drive based while Bill's is based on individual plays. Because of its play-based nature, Bill's system can separate run defense from pass defense.
| Run Defense | Pass Defense | |
| 2007 | 23rd | 35th |
| 2008 | 64th | 43rd |
| 2009 | 92nd | 72nd |
For all the long pass plays FSU gave up, FSU's problem was once again run defense. Hidden problems with run defense was far and away the top theme of last year's off-season. People fail to realize poor run defense when poor pass defense is present because pass plays are easier to view.
Why is FSU so bad against the run? When the program began to fall apart, FSU had to choose whether to recruit speed or size, because they could not land the players who had both attributes. In addition, the players they did have were horribly coached. After seemingly writing about this every day of last off-season, including our acclaimed "size matters" series, I feel pretty vindicated. But there is yet another measure by bill that demonstrates FSU's size problems:
| Standard Down Defense (1& 10, 2nd & 7 or less, 3rd and 4 or less | Passing Down Defense (2nd and 8+, 3rd and 5+) | |
| 2007 | 30th | 38th |
| 2008 | 56th | 42nd |
| 2009 | 100th | 55th |
Look at the differences in 2008 and 2009! All teams should play better defense in passing situations than standard situations, but this difference is enormous and should be setting off red flags in your head.
Update: csfffu interjects:
The assumed fact that all teams play better defense in passing situations than in standard situations does not suggest that any given teams rank (as opposed to their absolute performance) on passing downs should be better than their rank on standard downs. The argument should be that if not for player (e.g., size, speed) and coaching attributes (e.g., scheme) that cause some teams to be relatively more effective in one type of situation than in the other, we would expect a team’s ranking on passing downs to be similar to their ranking on standard downs. The fact the FSU’s rankings on the two types of downs are so discordant suggests that our defense (player attributes and/or scheme) may be oriented (intentionally or not) too much toward stopping a team on obvious passing downs, and not enough toward stopping them on standard run/pass downs.
When FSU got to run around and not worry about the threat of the run, its speed allowed the defense to play at a slightly below average level (as opposed to a laughably bad level on 1-10, 2-7 or less, and 3rd and 4 or less. But when they had to worry about the run and couldn't sell out against the pass, they were doomed because they had to cheat so much in order to have any shot at stopping the run due to their lack of size. These problems aren't new, folks! They were very much there in 2008 and we wrote about it time and again. The old defensive staff didn't see it but you can bet that the coaches who had been at other schools before coming to Florida State saw it, and that includes Coach Jimbo Fisher. Under Fisher's mandate, look for a much bigger team in 2010. The key to defense isn't 3rd down
FSU fans are hopeful that the defense can return to respectability next season. Having the worst defense in the ACC since a middle-decade Duke team and by far the worst FSU defense in 30 years is just not acceptable. Thanks to author RaysnNoles, we have figures on FSU's defensive drives.
Click "continue reading this post" for the conclusion.
Here's a chart that breaks down just how long FSU was on the field in each game:
| 1st | Pnts. | 2nd | Pnts. | 1st Half | Pnts. | 3rd | Pnts. | 4th | Pnts. | 2nd Half | Pnts. | Total | Pnts. | |
| Miami | 5:41 | 7 | 7:34 | 7 | 13:15 | 14 | 6:13 | 3 | 9:07 | 21 | 15:20 | 24 | 28:35:00 | 38 |
| at BYU | 2:21 | 0 | 8:00 | 14 | 10:21 | 14 | 6:16 | 7 | 3:34 | 7 | 9:50 | 14 | 20:11:00 | 28 |
| USF | 5:59 | 0 | 5:34 | 14 | 11:33 | 14 | 8:55 | 0 | 11:12 | 3 | 20:07 | 3 | 31:40:00 | 17 |
| at BC | 5:16 | 7 | 8:59 | 14 | 14:15 | 21 | 7:37 | 0 | 6:25 | 7 | 14:02 | 7 | 28:17:00 | 28 |
| GT | 4:55 | 14 | 4:42 | 14 | 9:37 | 28 | 10:51 | 14 | 7:21 | 7 | 18:12 | 21 | 27:49:00 | 49 |
| at UNC | 7:40 | 14 | 8:58 | 3 | 16:38 | 17 | 5:00 | 7 | 7:42 | 3 | 12:42 | 10 | 29:20:00 | 27 |
| NCST | 6:21 | 7 | 11:30 | 14 | 17:51 | 21 | 3:52 | 7 | 8:47 | 14 | 12:39 | 21 | 30:30:00 | 42 |
| at Clem | 7:56 | 6 | 5:39 | 8 | 13:35 | 14 | 3:46 | 7 | 9:57 | 19 | 13:43 | 26 | 27:18:00 | 40 |
| at WF | 8:00 | 7 | 6:38 | 7 | 14:38 | 14 | 9:45 | 7 | 5:44 | 7 | 15:29 | 14 | 30:07:00 | 28 |
| MD | 6:17 | 0 | 9:25 | 13 | 15:42 | 13 | 11:19 | 0 | 10:04 | 13 | 21:23 | 13 | 37:05:00 | 26 |
| UF | 10:03 | 7 | 9:54 | 17 | 19:57 | 24 | 2:38 | 6 | 8:49 | 7 | 11:27 | 13 | 31:24:00 | 37 |
| 70:29:00 | 69 | 86:53:00 | 125 | 157:22:00 | 194 | 76:12:00 | 58 | 88:42:00 | 108 | 164:54:00 | 166 | 322:16:00 | 360 |
That chart might be confusing. Here is a chart indicating how long it took the opponent to score in each game:
| < 1 min | 1-2 mins | 2-3 mins | 3-4 mins | 4-5 mins | 5-8 mins | 8-10 mins | Total | ||||||||||
| TD | FG | TD | FG | TD | FG | TD | FG | TD | FG | TD | FG | TD | FG | Scores | TD | FG | |
| Miami | 1 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 6 | 5 | 1 | ||||||||||
| Jax St. | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | ||||||||||||
| at BYU | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 4 | 4 | 0 | ||||||||||
| USF | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 1 | |||||||||||
| at BC | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 4 | 4 | 0 | ||||||||||
| GT | 3 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 7 | 7 | 0 | ||||||||||
| at UNC | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 3 | 2 | |||||||||
| NCST | 1 | 1 | 4 | 6 | 6 | 0 | |||||||||||
| at Clem | 2 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 6 | 6 | 0 | ||||||||||
| at WF | 1 | 2 | 1 | 4 | 4 | 0 | |||||||||||
| MD | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 3 | 2 | |||||||||
| UF | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 6 | 5 | 1 | |||||||||
| Total | 9 | 0 | 6 | 2 | 12 | 1 | 12 | 2 | 6 | 2 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 58 | 50 | 8 |
Interestingly, 52% of all opponent scoring drives took under 180 seconds. Wow.
But I noticed something else. Look at the ratio of TD's to field goals! At the very least you had to figure the defense could have held the opposing offense to a field goal rather than a touchdown. But it just did not happen. And it was particularly bad in the red zone. For comparison purposes, I used ACC play:
FSU allowed 27 touchdowns compared to just 4 field goals in the red zone! I still have trouble understanding how that happens.
But to get to the red zone, FSU also allowed opponents to march. A loooooooong way.
| 90+ | 80+ | 70+ | 60+ | 50+ | 40+ | <40 | ||||||||
| TD | FG | TD | FG | TD | FG | TD | FG | TD | FG | TD | FG | TD | FG | |
| Miami | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | ||||||||||
| Jax St. | 1 | 1 | ||||||||||||
| at BYU | 3 | 1 | ||||||||||||
| USF | 1 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| at BC | 2 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| GT | 1 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||
| at UNC | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||
| NCST | 3 | 2 | 1 | |||||||||||
| at Clem | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | ||||||||||
| at WF | 4 | |||||||||||||
| MD | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||
| UF | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||||||
| 2 | 0 | 11 | 1 | 18 | 0 | 6 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 4 | 0 | 6 | 3 | |
- 2 TD Drives of 90+ yards!
- 13 TD drives of 80+
- 31 TD drives of 70 or more yards. That is incredible.
- Think about this. In their 11 games against D1 competition, FSU allowed more than 2 TD drives of 70+ yards, on average. In fact, 30 TD drives of 70+ yards in just 11 D1 games is almost 3 per game. Simply amazing.
But those drives were not always time consuming. FSU also allowed an unbelievable amount of long scores. That was the worst part of the defense. Common sense would hold that forcing the opposing offense to use more plays to traverse the field would increase the chance that the offense will make a mistake resulting in a drive-ending turnover or leading to a punt. So teams just elected to go a long distance in relatively few plays:
| 1-4 plays | 5-9 plays | 10+ plays | 1-3 plays | 4-6 plays | 7-10 plays | 11+ plays | ||||||||
| TD | FG | TD | FG | TD | FG | TD | FG | TD | FG | TD | FG | TD | FG | |
| Miami | 4 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 2 | ||||||||
| Jax St. | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||||||||
| at BYU | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | |||||||
| USF | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | |||||||
| at BC | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||
| GT | 3 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 1 | ||||||||
| at UNC | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | |||||
| NCST | 1 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 4 | |||||||||
| at Clem | 2 | 4 | 2 | 3 | 1 | |||||||||
| at WF | 3 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||
| MD | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | ||||||
| UF | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||||
| 12 | 1 | 28 | 5 | 9 | 2 | 9 | 0 | 17 | 3 | 17 | 4 | 7 | 1 | |
| 22.8% | 57.9% | 19.3% | 15.5% | 34.5% | 36.2% | 13.8% | ||||||||
Given what we know about the length of opponent drives, these numbers are amazing. One immediate takeaway from this is that FSU needed to play more soft coverage. Given the limited practice time in college football, offenses are often sloppy and unable to execute drives consisting of many plays without committing a drive-killing turnover or being forced to punt. All indications are that new defensive coordinator Mark Stoops will play more 3-deep coverage which should lessen the frequency of the big plays allowed.
Half of all scores allowed were a result of drives encompassing 6 or fewer plays. Does that seem surprising to you?
The most important takeaways from this are that FSU's defense was a lot worse in 2008 than most believed. The cracks in the foundation were there and if you read TomahawkNation, you knew what was coming in 2009. Because the 2008 defense was worse than the facial numbers indicate, the dropoff from last year to this year was smaller than many believe. FSU must change its defensive mentality, philosophy, and scheme. And they must get bigger. There's every reason to expect that will happen, but a return to the top 30 is unlikely in year one of the Mark Stoops era.
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Comments
Pretty sad.
Is the dropoff more attributed to size, scheme, or, I hate to say this, lack of teaching/caring on the coaches part?
I think it is a bit of all of those
The best going forward would be your last option because it is the most readily correctable. All are correctable, however, in time.
Thanks
I agree with you on pretty much everything. I was trying to figure out the D this year and all I could come up with was blaming a certain player or scheme. I could not bring myself to blame the people that are actually making money out there. You have opened my eyes. Good work.
good stuff
i was pleased that you didnt mention the ‘i feel vindicated’ bit until over 1/2 through –
it was clear you were trying to keep it professional and fair
you stay classy, tn
I'm really trying to get people to read that size matters series so everyone can be on the same page
I think the redzone TD%
helps illustrate the size problem we have. I can see how speed is taken out of the equation on a shorter field.
Totally agree.
That was obvious in many of our games where we were undersized and also saw it in th NC game where Texas was small.
Redzone TD%
Pretty easy to score when the uncovered TE/HB provided one extra receiver that could not be accounted for by our back seven.
And wow, MD had the ball for over 37:00 minutes! To G5, I say thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Jan 21, 2010 9:43 AM EST up reply actions
Good article...
I’m new, but I’ve been reading for a while.
Did I miss the article about the Defensive roster summary? I saw the one for the offense, but never noticed if the defensive one came out.
by Dark Stranger on Jan 21, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
Welcome!
I believe the post you’re looking for is this one:
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2010/1/12/1245411/seminole-roster-review-florida#storyjump
>>---l>
Hey!
Yes, the defensive roster article came 1 or 2 days after. Depending on your settings (how many stories you have displayed on the front page), it may still be up. If it is not is is surely in our archives.
Thank you gentlemen
I’ve really enjoyed the site so far. You guys/gals have a great thing going.
by Dark Stranger on Jan 21, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
Very good article
I don’t post much but I read this page daily and I’m constantly amazed at the quality of the content and the in-depth coverage provided. Keep up the great work.
by nolesincebirth on Jan 22, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
Plus 1
It’s so frustrating when people won’t acknowledge that the size matters, then when you put the information in front of them they still argue because they refuse to read it.
The defense was so bad that there needs to be a "clean sheet" overhaul.
Looking at the stats and deciding where to improve is pointless. Stoops just needs to start fresh from day 1. The biggest problem I see is changing the mentality of the veterans who are now programmed to perform poorly and accept substandard results. Can they be re-trained? Or is it better to go with as much youth as possible and suffer the learning curve in hopes of a much better 2011?
Most of the returning starters
are young and will quickly benefit from better coaching and a different attitude. I think O. Jenije is a really good CB that seemed turned around a lot and near perfect other times. I hope Marcus White lives up to his hype with new coaching. Nigel Bradham can be a superstar with a little help. Can’t think of any other upper classman on D.
When you play in the 90's and most of the teams you face were terrible outside of the 2-3 big boys per year,
size probably didn’t matter anywhere near as much as it does now.
by Bud Elliott on Jan 21, 2010 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
I do not think we were all that small in the 90s.
We may not have been the biggest team around and we may have sacrificed a little size to gain a speed advantage at certain key positions, but we always had our share of bigger bodies as well. The last couple of years, we have been small across the board on defense.
I agree
We were big enough, with tremendous speed.
by Bud Elliott on Jan 21, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
I've looked that up.....
According to the ACC website, They’re comparable. However, I watched the title game from 99’ recently. The announced weights were higher than the ACC lists. So i can’t provide definitive proof that we were bigger. Of course we had pretty much the creme de la creme back then, regardless of size.
1999 team-all heights were overestated by FSU by 1" to 2"
Starters
DE-#56-Roland Seymour-6’4" – 264 Closer to 6’3"
NT-#53-Corey Simon-6’4" 275 Closer to 6’0"
DT-#92-Jerry Johnson-6’2" 280 Closer to 6"0"
DE-#58-Jamal Reynolds-6’4" 254 Closer to 6’3"
Subs
DE-#99-David Warren-6’5" 250 Closer to 6’3"
NG-#98-Chris Woods-6’3" 250 Closer to 6’2"
DE-#94-O.J. Jackson-6’2" 255 ?
DT-#95-Rian Cason-6’5" 285 Closer to 6’4"
DL-#48-Alonzo Jackson-6’4" 245 ?
DT-#97-Tony Benford-6’4" 270 Closer to 6’3"
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
We lost Everett Brown, Myron Rolle, Gano, and to a lesser extent Derick Nicholson after 2008.
I thought the defense just got worse from ’08 to ’09 because the linebackers had another year under Amato, we had zero pass rush, and we replaced Rolle for Mangum.
Hard to reconcile the luck of knocking out the opposing QB though. Still, I’m not sold that the ’08 defense being worse than the numbers show as the biggest explanation of the dropoff from ’08 to ’09.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
We were less talented where we were experienced, and less experienced where we were talented.
Does that make any sense?
The veterans weren't talented but the rookies were.
by Bud Elliott on Jan 21, 2010 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly. Kind of a different excuse than the usual "we weren't talented" or "we were too young"
because realistically neither of those excuses alone applied completely.
Standard vs Passing Downs
Great post as usual. One small correction of sorts. When discussing the defense’s ranking on standard downs versus passing downs you say:
“All teams should play better defense in passing situations than standard situations, but this difference is enormous and should be setting off red flags in your head.”
I know what you meant to say, but it’s not what you said. The assumed fact that all teams play better defense in passing situations than in standard situations does not suggest that any given teams rank (as opposed to their absolute performance) on passing downs should be better than their rank on standard downs. The argument should be that if not for player (e.g., size, speed) and coaching attributes (e.g., scheme) that cause some teams to be relatively more affective in one type of situation than in the other, we would expect a team’s ranking on passing downs to be similar to their ranking on standard downs. The fact the FSU’s rankings on the two types of downs are so discordent suggests that our defense (player attributes and/or scheme) may be oriented (intentionally or not) too much toward stopping a team on obvious passing downs, and not enough toward stopping them on standard run/pass downs.
Nitpicking I know, but given the overall high quality of your posts, things like this stand out.
It actually might be interesting to see a plot of all D1 defenses’ ranks on standard downs (x-axis) versus their rank on passing downs (y-axis) to see how discordant FSU looks relative to everyone else.
by csfuu on Jan 21, 2010 8:31 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
You're right
I am going to use your language if that is alright with you.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ncaadef2009 is the link at which you can see the standard and passing downs for each team.
by Bud Elliott on Jan 21, 2010 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
Absolutely alright
Pleased that you would want to.
Standard Downs vs Passing Downs
Here is a graph of the S&P+ defensive ratings on standard downs versus passing downs for all 120 teams listed. As expected, FSU’s rating on passing downs is high relative to its rating on standard downs, but still pretty well within the data cloud. I have also labeled the points corresponding to the teams with the top 5 overall S&P+ defensive ratings, so that we can see what we aspire to (the first substantial gap in the ratings is from 5 (Neb) to 6 (Iowa)). I also labeled Arizona and ECU because of Stoops and Hudson.

It's a "simple" scatterplot
At the most basic level, if you look at the point corresponding to FSU and drop down to the horizintal axis, you’ll land at 89.5, which is FSU’s rating on standard downs (the 89.5 is called the horizontal coordinate, or colloquially, the x-coordinate, of the point). Similarly, if you look at the point for FSU and move your eye left to the vertical axis, you’ll be at 103.2, which is FSU’s rating on passing downs (this is the vertical, or y-coordinate of the point). The same holds for all 120 points, which correspond to the 120 teams rated on the page that FSUn linked to above.
The upshot is that teams to the right of FSU in the graph were rated higher on standard downs, and teams above FSU were rated higher on passing downs. So for example, ECU was better than FSU on both standard and passing downs, while Arizona was better on standard downs but worse on passing downs (at least according to the S&P+ ratings). Of course you want your team to be in the upper right hand corner of this plot and as far as possible from the lower left corner.
I hope that helps. Sorry if it was more basic than you wanted.
Anyway, the reason I wanted to look at the plot was to see if FSUn and I were just blowing smoke concerning the discrepancy between FSU’s defensive rankings on these two scales (100th from the top on standard downs and 50th from the top on passing downs). If FSU’s point was way above the cloud of points, I would haved concluded that we were right. The fact that FSU’s point is on the upper side of the cloud does indicate that their passing down rating is higher than we would expect on average, given their standard down rating (or, if you prefer, that their standard down rating is lower than average given their passing rating). However, the fact that FSU’s point is pretty well within the cloud means that that the two ratings are not as discordant was we originally surmised (i.e., we were kind of blowing smoke).
Another thing that catches my eye is how much separation there is between the top 15 or so defenses (scattered around the upper right corner) and the rest, but I don’t know enough about the way the ratings are calculated to say how meaningful that might be.
On a more technical level, the relationship between the two measurements looks more linear, and hence amenable to traditional statistical techniques, if you take logarithms of both ratings. This also has the sideeffect of visually reeling in the very best teams a bit while exposing the very worst teams at the lower end a bit more. Since I haven’t looked into exactly what the values of the rating are suppose to represent, the logs of the ratings are just another rating scale to me (the top-to-bottom rankings would be the same using either scale). However, I was pretty sure that very few on the board would want to try to remember what a logarithm was, so I decided not to go there.
Forgot something
I should have also said that the orientation of the cloud of points indicates positive association/correlation between the two measures, i.e., teams that are good on standard downs tend, ON THE AVERAGE, to be good on passing downs, and vice versa.
Thanks!
who had the point at PD170ish and std 110ish? If that was an offense, they’s be expected to plummet next year.
by Bud Elliott on Jan 22, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
The unlabelled teams above 160 on passing downs were
I hope this formatting sticks. It’s an exercise for everyone to find these points on the graph.
TEAM STDDOWNS PASSDOWNS
7 Ohio State 133.8 180.8
8 Boise State 111.8 171.9
9 Texas 127.9 192.9
11 North Carolina 125.2 168.2
15 South Carolina 118.6 172.1
Not to nitpick but I think you meant to use "effective" and not "affective"
unless you think some teams become more emotional during passing downs than standard downs…which may be the case with last years defense :).
As a nitpicker myself ...
I can’t really complain about anyone else’s nitpicking. You’re right of course. I also noticed just after posting that I left out an apostrophe on a possessive (teams rank), but I don’t think I can edit it.
It is all in good fun.....I think that it is admirable that Bud wants posters to strive
for grammatical perfection.
Bloody nitpickers
I need a spell checker, especially before finishing my first cuppa.
Thanks for pointing that out
I am using firefox, but until you mentioned it, I hadn’t realized that the spell checker was turned off (not sure why or how that happened). Now I just need to install a grammar and punctuation checker.
Been using firefox for years
but these latest versions are giving me a hardtime on my mac. I have been really considering switching to safari.
You deserve an award
for such an insightful use of stats. Really, IMO TN has become the gold standard of college football analysis. Now that the accolades are out of the way, I really hope that the new defensive staff know this stuff or read TN since this piece pinpoints our weaknesses: 1st down and 10+ and stopping the run. Thanks again!
The Fisher era has begun!
I agree 100%
You guys put in so much time, effort and care into your analysis. It really isn’t better anywhere than right here – gold standard for sure. The best aspect of this article for me was the culmination of everything that has happened over the last 10 years and the staggering differences between when we used to be great and the recent mediocrity. Like the contributors have mentioned many times, we had an “our X is better than your O” mentality which worked a lot of the time, not to mention we WERE bigger in the past and I remember when we always had a run defense in the top 5, if not the best in the country. The recruiting, coaching and attitude coupled with the downtrend in size leading to weaknesses in things like pass rush and run defense paints a clear picture of our struggles. Great work FSUn, once again.
I'd like to see a comparable list of ACC teams, or our opponents, for context.
That seems like a huge number but exactly how huge is it? Double a “normal” team? Or worse?
This might out it into some prespective
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2009/11/18/1163036/a-tale-of-three-defenses
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
Two questions.
1) Is there some logic behind why opponents scored more in the 2nd and 4th quarters? I assume this is probably normal for almost all teams as the 1st and 3rd quarters, the players are trying to get back into the groove of a game. But I just wondered if there was some reason we got absolutely blasted in those quarters.
B) Do turnovers factor in at all? Is there a chart that could be showed for the last 3 years on the amount of TOs the defense generated? Or are they really not relevant?
Thanks, great write up.
I can think of at least 2 occasions when teams basically took the entire 3rd quarter off against us because they were milking a lead.
USF and BC
Definitely UNC
Butch and their OC John Shoop completely took the ball out of Yates’ hands after they got up 24-6. Every UNC possession in the 2nd half ESPN would pan up to the booth and show Shoop ready to pull his hair out.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Jan 21, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
Perhaps exhaustion was a factor
Our defense seemed to be on the field a lot this year. Maybe they just were worn out in the 2nd and 4th.
There's some thought that turnovers are a result of quality defensive play
and that a team that gives up a ton of yards but yet forces a ton of turnovers is probably getting pretty lucky with the bounces.
by Bud Elliott on Jan 21, 2010 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
Makes sense.
Any other thought to the increase in points allowed in the 2nd and 4th quarters?
by TimScribble on Jan 21, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
Just thinking
I don’t think I could prove this statistically, but I’ve got an idea on why more points were scored in the 2nd and 4th quarter.
Most teams script their first 10-15 plays on offense. They do this to get a feel for how the other team will defense certain looks by formation and coverage. Then the offense makes adjustments and starts rolling with what works. Maybe it took the other team about a quarter to get everything they wanted to do against us rolling?
I think the 4th quarter scoring is a lack of depth on our part. Our front seven was usually out of gas by the 4th quarter and the points would just start rolling.
Foosball is the devil
Looking at the chart, it appears that it was the second quarter that really did us in.
I would guess that we were able to hold up at the point of attack for a quarter, but that our lack of size and depth caught up to us in the 2d quarter. Or teams figured out our defense and we failed to adjust.
I can tell you that opponents scoring in the 4th were not the result of FSU playing their second-team defense.
We were afforded that luxury perhaps 10 minutes total the entire season. Staggering.
by The K-Man on Jan 21, 2010 12:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It would be great to get an analysis after NSD
on how this recruiting class specifically addresses the acute size problems.
My values: I love my wife, admire my dog, and believe very deeply that Bobby Bowden and Paula Dean were separated at birth.
Yours could use some work today
Sadly because of the “storm” i’ll be unable to attend most of my classes today. What a shame :(
just got a text from FSU that says not to drive in the potential flood. Sounds like they dont want students to go to class.
365 days, until I change my ways.
oddly enough
2000 miles away we’re having the same kind of weather— our third storm system in 1 week, expected to total 4 inches here in “Sun Valley.” For perspective, we usually get 7 inches annually. An hour and a half north of us, they are expecting 4 feet of snow!
LA to our west is getting pounded.
My values: I love my wife, admire my dog, and believe very deeply that Bobby Bowden and Paula Dean were separated at birth.
It was a monsoon in Tally earlier
There’s a lake behind my house today (it wasn’t there yesterday).
"He went into this whole spiel about Shaolin monks or something like that, how we need to be like Shaolin monks and how they don't talk for 15 years and stuff." - Caz Piurowski about Coach Coley
There was a giant iceberg near New Zealand awhile back
It had broken off from the south pole.
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
Tennessee Street was a river at 10:15am
I made an illegal detour through the city bus terminal to avoid getting swallowed up.
by The K-Man on Jan 21, 2010 12:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
thanks.
:)
My values: I love my wife, admire my dog, and believe very deeply that Bobby Bowden and Paula Dean were separated at birth.
The best news is that we have a brand new defensive staff.
As was mentioned earlier, the thing that is need to fix this problem is to start right at the bottom….a clean slate. Stoops will come in with a plan, and the players that show they can accomplish what needs to be done will play. No favorites, no seniority…just whoever gets the job done.
Bud always does a great job
He knows a lot about football especially scheme wise and I am sure played some football somewhere at some point. I usually pick FSU to win more games than he does and he is usually right. I honestly did not expect last years defense to be this bad.
As has been mentioned in the size matters and other articles, you can see Jimbo has moved toward finding more corners who can tackle, larger corners and types who can be put on the field at the same time, can double as a corner or safety in order to disguise the defense.
Even with better corners and linebackers it is still imperative to find tackles who can plug up the gaps, stop the run and get pressure on the quarterback. We had almost no pressure on quarterbacks last year and teams could pretty much run or pass at will. Any corner can feel pretty lonely when he has to cover guys for what appears an eternity.
I honestly feel Stoops can bring this defense to around a #30 first year, make a team punt four or five times a game anyway. It was pretty frustrating to watch teams score against FSU almost every time they touched the ball.
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
One more year! One more year!
Give ole Bobby one more year! Let him make Chuck the Chest our DC!
It’s just amazing to me how so many “FSU” fans who followed our program for so many years were so blind to just how badly Bobby and his band of untalented misfits had mismanaged things. Some folks still don’t get it and can’t wait to pile on Fisher.
OK, I’ll let go now…
My values: I love my wife, admire my dog, and believe very deeply that Bobby Bowden and Paula Dean were separated at birth.
FiestaNole
You already know I agree with you there. Watching and reading fans who wanted more of the same was probably one of the most frustrating things about last season to me. Watching a large segment of the fan base who were in sync with our rivals wanting the same situation forever was perplexing. It was almost as if they were hypnotized. Thank you Jim, thank you Jim!
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
by DocHoliday2 on Jan 21, 2010 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
I agree
Smith took a lot of flack for his comments – I personally wanted to THANK him for giving me hope that MAYBE the people up top were FINALLY coming around. Is it best to keep things in-house? Usually. But sometimes drastic measures are needed, and Smith’s comments were encouraging when FSU was at a very low point.
Smith was very savy.
He said what he needed to say in public to give others cover and leverage. But he only said in public once. And I agree that it gave us something to hope for as we helplessly watched the defense struggle mightly.
I agree, nolesontop. The administration handled the situation about as well as it could be handled. Bowden’s retirement was awkward mainly because the Bowdens insisted on making it so.
When Fisher was announced as the HCIW in 2007, Bowden and Joe Paterno were only a game or two apart. Bowden’s contract was announced as year-by-year and loaded with incentives. I interpreted the latitude about timing as meaning Bowden had two years remaining with an option on a third. If he avoided scandal, got the Seminoles back into a 9-12 win groove per season, and closed in on 400 career wins or the all-time wins record, room existed to give him one more season to go for the gold. Doing so would benefit both Bowden and the program. Fisher was on board and already pitching in to make it happen.
Things didn’t work out that way, as we know. Bowden’s teams struggled, Paterno pulled away, and a cheating scandal made win records a dead issue. As the next two years provided ample evidence that the Seminoles were a multi-year rebuilding project, the university had no reason not to turn to Fisher.
TK Wetherell gave his resident legend every incentive, every chance. Yes, he did stop short of guaranteeing him the chance to pad his totals indefinitely at the pace of 4-7 wins a season at the price of 2 million dollars each year. And he stopped short of passing the problem of Bowden’s retirement along to the university’s next president. But that is as it should be. A president sees to the needs of his university. A university is bigger than one person. The Bowdens have no cause for complaint.
Sports fans can claim some responsibility for one thing, though: the fact that the Bowdens, who by all accounts are truly decent people, came to feel so entitled. They talked as if a one-year contract meant lifelong self-employment, as if a university existed to serve as a life-support system for a coach, and as if asking a multi-millionaire to retire at age 80 represented cruel and unusual punishment.
It’s often said that Bobby Bowden spoiled us. It’s less often observed that we also spoiled him.
-
Abiaka Windclan
>>>----------------------->
by Abiaka Windclan on Jan 24, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Stoops should start by
letting Nigel B. move to inside LB and let him get up 260 if he so desires. That is his natural position.
by RattlnSpear on Jan 21, 2010 3:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Most of us are scared to violate the new one-liner rule
Otherwise, we’d have blown that one outta the water.
by Randall W. Spetman on Jan 21, 2010 11:11 PM EST up reply actions
Too soon for 2010?
If we’re closing the book on 2009, how soon can we open up 2010 (I’m guessing Feb 3 about 7:00 PM)?
If so, I’m going to go ahead and predict that FSU’s S+P Rating is in the bottom half of the ACC. Wake was the 7th ranked S+P defense in our league in 2009, coming in at #53. So I think we’ll be right around 45-55 and it will be enough to win our division.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Jan 21, 2010 11:05 AM EST reply actions
We will get an idea come spring and fall practice
If this defense shows any signs of being able to stop our offense (which will be one of college football’s best) we will be off and running.
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
Great write up and thanks to RaysnNoles for the charts
I thought this was explained well:
The most important takeaways from this are that FSU’s defense was a lot worse in 2008 than most believed. The cracks in the foundation were there and if you read TomahawkNation, you knew what was coming in 2009. Because the 2008 defense was worse than the facial numbers indicate, the dropoff from last year to this year was smaller than many believe.
It also helps exlpain why we shouldn’t expect a top 20 D in 2010.
I do think we will be substantially improved for the following reasons:
1. We are young and didn’t lose many upperclassmen contributors.
2. Our young guys’ size should substantially benefit from Viloria.
3. The unit should immediately benefit from our EEs: McCloud, Luc, and Harris.
4. To the extent that we have to play freshman DLs, we’ve recruited big boys.
5. Stoops’ scheme should greatly reduce those big plays, making the quick scores and long drives much more difficult.
6. Hudson’s units are known for being ball hawks. More turnovers end more drives (even short ones).
7. With Viloria improving the size of our OL and the addition of Gran and Smiley, we should be able to balance the run and pass more (more rushing) which should chew up additional clock and keep our D off the field more.
8. We don’t play GT. And Spiller and Ford are gone from Clemson.
9. We won’t have Mangum.
I did not list experience as a factor for the young guys returning becuse they experience they received was virtually worthless and they’ll have new schemes.
I expect us to return to the Top 50 in Stoops’s first year, similar to what we fielded in 2008. From there on out, it should only get better.
Harris Not EE
Unfortunately, Harris isn’t enrolled now. He’s in Miami taking his last couple remaining online courses. He’s supposed to enroll in May I believe.
Agree 100%
10. We don’t have 72 or 91.
I am convinced that our abysmal performance from our D-line lead to our defensive woes. I would argue that moving Dawkins to DE will be extremely helpful in our attempt to not get dominated at the LOS next year. Was it me, or did it seem like DB’s had to make the overwhelming majority of tackles on running plays last season?
by mountain renegade on Jan 21, 2010 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
It amazes me how bad our DE play made the rest of the D look.
Several of my Nole friends kept commenting on how bad our secondary was, and I still insist that they weren’t as bad as they looked. Our DB’s, and LB’s for that matter, were constantly in horrible positions to be able to make (or miss, as was often the case) the tackle. It seems to me that our defensive woes are similar to our pre-Trickett offensive woes. When you are getting clobbered up front, there’s just not that much the other players can do.
by mountain renegade on Jan 21, 2010 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
Both are right
The DB’s were crap-tastic last year. Not entirely their fault due to lack of pass rush, but there were plenty of BIG pass plays to be had on 3 and 5-step drops.
What blew my mind about the DE’s last year was that Jody Allen actually had them wrong-shouldering trap plays (OG or FB) last year, which is designed to spill the play to the outside. That is all well and good if your OLB’s are over the top of the play, but they were CONSTANTLY out of position, easily getting hooked by opposing TE’s/Slot receivers/backs…….which is why so many DB’s had to make tackles on running plays.
(Or why #22 was forced to abuse the grass to the front, sides, or behind the runner)
Oderint Dum Metuant
Possibly because Jody played offense and never coached defense much less DE's before being hired at FSU?
I completely agree. Our scrape-exchange was all messed up. They didn’t ever work together.
by Bud Elliott on Jan 22, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
The might be a reasonable excuse, except that he was coaching DEs at Florida State for 8 years.
Not that I think JA knew what he was doing as far as teaching technique, but I think this placement had to be by design. I think it was the only way we could prevent inside runs. Surely, Mickey would have told him if he was doing something scheme wise that was so incompatible with what Mickey was doing elsewhere. I think Mickey figured his players had a better chance of stopping outside runs than inside runs.
The DE's and OLB's must work together
if the De’s crash in the OLB’s must scrape, and vice-a-versa
by Bud Elliott on Jan 22, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
And look at the results he got....
There were a couple of guys who were just too damn talented not to succeed……then a bunch of other guys who were just “ehhhhh”.
Prior to J.A., the case could be made for Florida State being “DE-U”……..not “DE-P.U.”
Oderint Dum Metuant
That, and McNeil apparently liked the doghouse a lot
meaning Craig Yarborough was getting significant time. I respect any student-athlete, but come on, there are some posters here that could have anchored better against the run than he could.
(I mean some of you are really fat)
Anyone notice that our d-line had a "decent" game against WVU and the D looked like world beaters?
I know Devine still got his yards, but I thought it would be much worse.
Im not an editor by any stretch
and again, as many have said Bud, great great job.
That said, if I remember correctly, you did ask for people to comment if we noticed anything. And as nitpicky as it is, I’m under the impression you want these things mentioned.
That’s an enormous drop. For three years, FSU’s defense hovered around the top 1/5th or top 1/6th of all teams. In 2009, they dropped into the bottom quarter. Was FSU’s 2009 defense that much worse than the 2008 unit? Anecdotally, I’ll submit that it was not. I believe that the 2008 defense was tremendously lucky and the 2009 defense was slightly unlucky. FSU fans will remember that the 2008 squad did had an amazing ability to injure opposing quarterbacks. That’s not a repeatable skill. If it were, perhaps FSU’s 2009 defense might have fared a bit better. That is why statistics do not always tell the whole story. While they are the record of what happened, they might not always indicate why something did or did not happen.
Maybe drop the did? Let me know if you want me to continue spotting.
Of course I do
and yes, did had doesn’t really work.
by Bud Elliott on Jan 21, 2010 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
Just to be clear:
You do not have permission to spot my posts also. My typing skills are not that good, and you do not have that much time.
My values: I love my wife, admire my dog, and believe very deeply that Bobby Bowden and Paula Dean were separated at birth.
I think we can have a Top 50-60 defense next year as well...
A top 60 or top 70 defense this year would have probably won us 3 more games (Miami, GT, and BC or Clemson) which would have put us at 9-3 (7-1) and would have played for the ACC Championship. It’s amazing to think about what a defense just 30 spots higher would have done for this team. And it’s amazing to think what a Top 50-60 defense will do for a team next year that should have at worst the same offensive production as this season, if not better.
i think it's important to note....
FSU hadn’t lost a game in which they scored 30+ points (42-41 loss) since Auburn 1984. (Fairly certain this is true).
In 2009, we lost:
To Miami after scoring 34 points.
To GT after scoring 44 points, including 35 in the first half!
We also won games in which our opponents scored:
28 – BYU
27 – NC
42 – NC State
26 – Maryland
28 – Wake
I mention these, because we’d only scored in the upper 20’s and lost 7 times since 1985. (Non-overtime games)
30-26 vs. Brett Favre in ’89
33-28 vs. Virgina ’95(Dunn inches from walkoff TD)
32-29 vs. UF ’97
Twice in 2001 (both included garbage time FSU scores)
28-27 vs. Miami in 2002 (wide something)
31-28 vs. GT (thanks, Marcus)
So not only did we suffer 2 historic shootout losses in 2009, but our opponents were on the losing end of 5 near-shootout losses as well. (Scoring in the upper 20’s and losing). That only happened 7 times to us in the past quarter century!
Before the season, I mentioned that it if we were gonna lose, I preferred Wild West Shootouts over 13-7 punt fests. Wish granted.
by The K-Man on Jan 21, 2010 12:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 4 recs
You still wishing for Wild West Shootout losses now?
I don’t think I lose as much hair on the scrappy defensive battles…
In retrospect, my wish was an ill-advised wish, Jab.
I’m under the age of 30, exercise regularly and have a top-notch diet.
I mention this because I LITERALLY almost had a cardiac event towards the end of the NC State game. Not worth it.
by The K-Man on Jan 21, 2010 1:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Gotcha, I'm sure some people would still rather have shootouts though.
It does make for a more exciting game. But when you’re more than a casual fan of a team, it’s harder to watch.
K-Man
Good call. I spent the 2004-2007 years saying “If we score under 21 we lose, if we score over 24 we win” and it was just rinse and repeat every week.
As far as 2009, say what you will about the outcomes of UM, GT & NCST, they were some kind of fun…and for any fan other than FSU’s they were a lot of fun to watch.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Jan 21, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
fun with a price.
See my aforementioned anecdote about the panic attack on Halloween.
The wins are fun. The Miami game was SO close to being the only walkoff regulation TD in FSU history (can anybody refute?).
But the downside of the nailbiters was how painfully predictably our terrible defense performed. I made many road treks this year to away games. After all the travel, money, and effort to finally make it into your assigned seat….then see #22 trot onto the field for the 1st defensive play? Bummer, man.
(As stated previously, #22 was not an acceptable talent for FSU, but he was merely a symptom of a much larger problem)
by The K-Man on Jan 21, 2010 1:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's crazy if it is true, if it is, it must be pre-Bowden
The only game I could think of that was decided that late on an FSU TD was the 1983 win against Arizona State, but according to nolefan.org, the winning TD was scored with :06.
I assume that's not including OT
Wouldn’t the NC State OT victory a few years back be considered a walk-off?
Correct. The "regulation walkoff TD" is what I'm mythically referring to.
OldNole60…where you at? If he doesn’t remember a walkoff TD, then I’ll believe it’s never happened.
by The K-Man on Jan 21, 2010 7:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Stuff of nightmares this article
Uncensored didn’t pile on and didn’t need to. The charts and straight facts are appalling in themselves. Great job Bud, especially on a subject as grotesque as this.
What we do in life, echoes in eternity.
Good read Bud.
Although I don’t think we need any more proof about how shitty our d was last year lol.
I was just joking.
I enjoyed the article, it just brings back terrible memories for me lol.
Where are we heading
After reviewing the offensive and defensive reviews, I think I have a good feeling on what the defense will do next year.
Look at the yards per play offensive chart and how bad the offense had become by 2006. No depth, no talent, no coaching (sounds just like our defense now). Even though Jimbo started making the right changes in 2007, it really took until 2008 to start seeing big improvement. Jimbo’s first season only brought about .5 yards per play improvement.
Now, Jimbo had more things going against him in 2007 and 2008 than Stoops will have next year, but can we honestly expect Stoops to get our average yards-per-play-allowed average down by more that a yard?
A full yard-per-play improvement would still result in a defense allowing 5.7 ypp! That’s not good.
I want to believe the new staff will transform the youngsters into bigger better players, that a better scheme will help conceal our talent and depth deficiencies, and that incoming freshmen will have an impact.
However, realist in me thinks our defense was terrible for a lot more reasons than just bad coaching. One off-season is not going to make all those problems go away, but I think we’ll all be happy in 2011.
If next year’s defense can rank in the 60s or 70s, it will be a great achievement.
Foosball is the devil
by IAHNole on Jan 21, 2010 2:59 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Great question
In conference play only, check this out
Bama and UF outgained opponents by 1.3 yards per play. Ole Miss outgained opponents by 1 yard per play.
Clemson outgained opponents by 1.2 per play. VTech outgained opponents by 2.1 per play (anomaly).
Here’s the chart
Virginia Tech 2.1
Clemson 1.2
Miami (Florida) 0.6
North Carolina 0.1
Georgia Tech 0.1
Florida State -0.1
Wake Forest -0.2
Boston College -0.5
Duke -0.5
North Carolina State -0.8
Maryland -1.2
Virginia -1.4
A reasonable goal for me would be 5.5 in conference
and if we do that, and can be 6.75 per on offense in conference, we can pull off 6-2
I can't wait for the days of dominant d to come back!
I hate watching these shootout type games, they aren’t my type of football. If stoops can pull off a top 45 d next year, it will have to be considered a huge success.
I think 5.5 in conference is possible
Statistically, I think the 6.7 allowed this past season is probably an outlier. Even though the defense was on a downward trend overall, but 6.7 is just so bad I can’t talk about it.
I think the 2010 front seven on defense will look a lot like the 2008 front seven on offense (seriously young). I think there will be some instances where they look okay and show big improvement, but against better, bigger teams, there will still be trouble.
Maybe you should re-post the articles and links on constraint plays because those segments easily explain the 2009 defensive failures on 1st down, and probably still represent the biggest hurdle in keeping teams below or around 5.5 next year.
I can’t wait to see the spring game. I very much want to see how the returning defensive ends do against Datko and Sanders. I think the ends could be the whole key to next year.
Foosball is the devil
Lack of size
So is FSU going to be still pretty undersized next year? I know Double V has a new weight program and such, but will we see a big improvement in one year?
I think FSUn or someone has predicted that overall we should be bigger
If I recall, we should be hovering near or above the 1800 lb mark.
There is a lot riding on whether enough 300 pound defensive tackles are brought in
It always comes back to that, stop the run and get penetration.
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
I hope we arent relying on high school recruits to fill that void.
Jacobbi, Moses, Amp, and Deas(iffy) would average around 300lbs.
I don’t believe any of our current high school DT tackles would be as ready as Jacobbi last year, and even he was in an unenviable position.
by The K-Man on Jan 21, 2010 10:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
There are no FSU DT recruits out of HS that can contribute next year, no.
I think Jacobbi will play at 295 this year. He played at 283 last year.
I’ve been told they want Amp in the 300 flat area and not over.
Deas is so iffy, and I have no clue on his current weight. He doesnt look 300 in the pics I’ve seen.
365 days, until I change my ways.
Ready or not, they will have to play, no?
I am hoping that D. Jacobs can contribute at a Freshman-Jacobbi-esque level, subbing making up for less athleticism with some added mass. Also might be able to contribute at a higher level he would only need to be on the field for about 1/3 of defensive snaps or less. Best bet for a DL depth chart is still something along these lines:
SDE – White/Dawkins (McAllister?)
DT – McDaniel, McAllister, Cummings (Passing down – Dawkins?)
NT – McCray, McCloud, Jacobs
WDE – Jenkins, Stevens
The DE positions are still a gray area, as we don’t know exactly what Stoops is going to favor in a speed/size ratio, and we don’t know exactly how much weight kids are going to be able to put on. Undoubtedly it will be bigger than last year, but we may not see the “jumbo” lineup that is possible (some combo of Dawkins, McAllister, and White on respective ends — all 260+).
McAllister and Dawkins could end up practically anywhere. Because of our severe interior depth/youth issues, I could still see either of them on the inside as 2nd/3rd and long specialists. Though I am still hoping to see one or both of these guys at SDE, the few quality/experienced interior guys that we have will undoubtedly need breaks, and the alternatives to Dawkins are all young, relatively weak, & utterly inexperienced.
I expect Demonte to stay at 3 technique. His frame is massive. He is a “door frame”, and Dawkins to move to DE.
Cummings is being recruited at SDE.
If Jacobs is seeing the field I think that is a problem for us. DT is the hardest position on D to come in and contribute right away and no offense to Jacobs but he is nowhere near Jacobbi’s level of technique which was extremely advanced when he got to school for an 18 yr old.
McDaniel, McCray, McCloud, and McAllister should hold the 1t/3t rotation, and if by the grace of God Deas makes it in maybe he helps.
365 days, until I change my ways.
I think your sentiment paralleled mine for the inside in terms of the 2-deep.
I don’t expect Jacobs to come in and perform like a 5* (McDaniel). However, since he can be asked to fill in as the 3rd team guy instead of 1st (like McDaniel), I think we can limit both the situations and numbers of snaps to a degree that he can provide some positive contribution for us.
Even if it is less than the 10-15 snaps I suggested, I think he’ll provide our NT duo of Moses and Amp with an occasional (and much needed) blow here and there.
How Could It Have Been Worse Under Amato ?
Through the past few months I’ve seen many comments about how much worse it could have been had Amato been promoted to DC. Well, this defense was either not as bad as we thought, or it was. Either way, it was attrocious. On the surface, it is difficult for me to see how it could have been worse.
I’m not asking you to pile on Amato. I certainly wish him the best and a full recovery. But he had decent defenses at NCSt. They were definitely serviceable. If this year’s defensive staff had disagreements and those contradictions filtered down to the team, then perhaps a staff under Amato would have at a minimum been more consistent. Perhaps a statistically worse defense would have precipitated an earlier and more strident call for Bowden’s retirement.
I’m interested in specifics, not something like, well, they could have given up 50 TD vs. 1 FG in the red zone. Of course that would have been statistically worse. The question is: why would an defense with Amato as DC been statistically worse?
On a different defensive topic, a couple of weeks back there was an article about how quickly the defense could realistically improve, and there has been a lot of discussion and speculation within the walls of TN. Does anyone know how quickly the Oklahoma defenses improved from pre-Snoops to the NC game against FSU? True the Heisman was a factor in FSU’s poor performance, but Oklahoma’s defense was outstanding. Their LB’s were amazing quick in that game.
Trust those who seek the truth; doubt those who find it. -Andre Gide
by Tastanagi Tutka Thlako on Jan 21, 2010 10:53 PM EST reply actions
Simple
A) He would have expanded levels of influence (or lack thereof) on more positions.
2)That would create worse results on the field
D)Which we take measures of and total them up and compare them to teams.
Green) Specifics would just be a guess
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
A) he would have probably been here in 2010........
Well, gosh, it's a weight off of everybody. I think everybody that is an FSU fan or a coach or a player, this takes a weight off the shoulder. But what does that mean? Seven more days of peace?
by stevegrizzle on Jan 22, 2010 8:11 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Oklahoma..
Just based on scoring defense… Oklahoma went from giving up 32ppg in 1997 to 13ppg in 2001
1997 32 ppg
1998 20 ppg
1999 19 ppg (Stoops 1st Year)
2000 15 ppg (National Title)
2001 13 ppg
Not much improvement based on this highly inaccurate measurement of defenses from year 0 to year 1, but big jump in year 2 and year 3.
2010 for FSU is still bumpy. 2011 is where we should see significant improvements.
Think Mickey Andrews would notice? Uh, yeah.
Thanks for a detailed and informative discussion. I can’t go along with you here, though:
“The old defensive staff didn’t see it…”
You don’t know what an entire staff of experienced coaches saw or didn’t see. You know, at best, only what problems they had or didn’t have. Mickey Andrews’s career as a defensive coach makes it reasonable to give him, certainly, the benefit of the doubt.
You mentioned earlier in your article that Andrews was forced to choose between size and speed when recruiting in the past decade rather than enjoying the luxury of recruiting both as he did earlier. Your analysis sounds credible. But that’s also the kind of situation a coach notices. Andrews would be the first to notice it. He wouldn’t like the trend. He’d stew about it. He’d complain about it to Bobby in the staff meetings. He’d still be careful what he said to the press. But you can bet the house that he would notice. He’d be able to tell us more about it than anyone here can write.
You make a good case. Just keep it real.
Thanks again.
Abiaka Windclan
>>>----------------------->
by Abiaka Windclan on Jan 24, 2010 12:52 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Abiaka Windclan, Welcome to TN. Thanks for joining and posting your thoughts. All opinions are welcomed and encouraged.
If you haven’t done so already, you may want to take a few moments to check out the following links to bring you up to date and make your visits here more enjoyable.
A) Welcome to TN Guide
2) FSU’s Recruiting Big Board
and
D) The Did You Know Guide to Better Using TN
Without trying to get too personal, are you native to the Miccosukee Tribe or the Miccosukee Seminole Nation?
Regardless, again welcome.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em

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