Thoughts on Defensive Line Recruiting and Depth Issues
by Bud Elliott on Jan 22, 2010 1:43 PM EST
in FSU Football Recruiting
157 comments
Recently a lot of members have been voicing their frustration over what they perceive to be a lack of success in recruiting along the defensive line. And we here at TN have been fairly vocal about the need to re-stock the defensive line. But how did FSU develop this need? How big is the problem? What is FSU doing to fix this problem? Are they doing enough?
In 2007, FSU brought in only one defensive lineman. That's Jamar Jackson, who subsequently got hurt. FSU did recruit another (Brian Coulter), but for approximately the 4th consecutive year, he failed to qualify. And another went to JUCO and has returned this year.
One year is all it takes. One year can screw up depth in a big way. But just how screwed up is FSU's defensive line situation? Two weeks ago I wrote:
Ideally, a team wants to have about 15-17 defensive linemen. It should be the most numerous group on the team, despite only starting 4 players, as opposed to the offensive line's 5. The reason for that is three-fold: defensive linemen rotate a lot to stay fresh, they often get hurt, and they are the position that most frequently encounters academic-related attrition. Of those 15-17, there should be roughly an equal amount of ends and tackles, with a slight lean in the direction of tackles because outside backers can sometimes become ends, whereas backers cannot become tackles. As I've detailed for the better part of two years, Florida State's defensive line recruiting from 2006-2007 was poor, particularly in 2007. The 2006 and 2007 recruiting classes should now be red-shirt seniors and true seniors. That lack of recruiting is why Florida State finds itself with a less than ideal situation along the defensive line.
FSU's current defensive line roster looks like this:
| DT | DE |
| Moses McCray Jr |
Markus White Sr |
| Jacobbi McDaniel So |
Jamar Jackson Jr |
| Amp McCloud (EE) (Rs) So |
Toshmon Stevens (rs) so |
| Demonte McAllister (Rs) Fr |
Brandon Jenkins so |
| Everette Dawkins (rs) so |
|
| Dan Hicks (rs) fr |
The "EE" by Amp's name indicates that he is an early-enrolee, meaning he is already enrolled in classes. AMP will have 3 years to play 3 seasons. That gives FSU 10 defensive linemen. Dawkins is also able to play inside if need be.
As far as current recruits are concerned, let's have a look (remember that McCloud is a recruit for this year but is in the above list because he is already on campus):
| DT | DE |
| Cameron Erving | Darious Cummings |
| Damien Jacobs |
FSU is adding three guys who will eventually play at well over 300lbs, and who made All-State or All-region in Louisiana and Georgia (Erving/ McCloud). Cummings is a very highly rated defensive end who will play end at more than 280 lbs (welcome to the new FSU defensive philosophy).
So current roster (9) + incoming recruits (4) = 13. But remember that we want to have 15-17 on the roster in any given year. Our recruiting guys tell me FSU will likely take 2 more defensive linemen, which would give FSU 15, placing it within range.
But what if FSU doesn't grab two more defensive linemen? What if FSU's coaches don't think this year's defensive line recruiting base is very good? That seems to be the prevailing sentiment from the recruiting guys. It is a year in which the available elite talent is heavy on defensive backs and light on defensive linemen. Should FSU pass on elite defensive backs to take above average defensive linemen? FSU appears to be taking the elite defensive backs (they have the best class of cornerbacks in the country according to rivals) and looking to 2011 for more defensive linemen. But is this a safe strategy?
Actually yes. 2011 is considered a loaded year along the defensive line, particularly in the South and Florida. Not only that, but consider what FSU's defensive line will likely look like in 2011...
| DT | DE |
| Moses McCray sr |
Brandon Jenkins (jr) |
| Jacobbi McDaniel jr |
Everette Dawkins (rs) jr |
| Amp McCloud (EE) (Rs) jr |
Toshmon Stevens (rs) jr |
| Demonte McAllister (Rs) so |
Dan Hicks (rs) so |
| Cameron Erving (rs) fr |
Darious Cummings (so) |
| Damien Jacobs (rs) fr |
Likely 2010 recruit (rsFr or so) |
| likely 2010 recruit (rs) fr |
NOTE: projected Jamar Jackson to transfer before 2011 season |
The key here is that FSU is only losing one lineman to graduation within the next two seasons! Think about how young FSU is at this position! I don't know this for a fact, but I bet FSU is having a hard time selling defensive line recruits on the early playing time when the recruit can see that FSU is only losing one defensive lineman to graduation in the next two years!
If FSU loads up on defensive linemen who it deems are not of the caliber it wants, then it will create a massive gridlock at the position for the next two seasons. That would be really stupid considering the type of defensive line talent available in 2011.
Looking at the above chart and counting on two more in this current 2010 class, FSU would return 13 scholarship defensive linemen before taking any 2011 recruits. That would put them in prime position to take between 4-6 in 2011, giving them a roster of 17-19, which is absolutely loaded. In fact, it might be that FSU only needs to take 1 more defensive lineman in this current class.
Finally, for anyone worried about the defensive line play in this coming season and thinking that recruiting in 2010 will solve it, our recruiting guys say that defensive linemen rarely contribute as freshmen. Sometimes they are forced to play, but that doesn't mean they contribute. It looks like FSU has a plan. We'll see how that plan works out.
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Cummings to play at 275, isn't that our goal for SDE?
Any chance Stevens makes a move to LB?
"If lessons were learned in defeat, our team is getting a great education." -Murray Warmath
Stevens came in at 195
And is a legit 230 right now at 6’5. If he can add another 20 this offseason ( a lot, I agree), I think he could still be very valuable at WDE
Stevens & Jenkins
If Stevens can add the strength and bulk necessary to hold at the point, I think he has the speed and athleticism to be a legitimate threat off the edge. Not to mention the length of his 6’5" frame, if developed properly under the right coach, could also add to his ability to pose a unique set of challenges for opposing offensive fronts.
Jenkins also played well when given the chance as a true freshman. He’ll be another youngster that benefits from a full off-season and the revamped S&C program that Viloria is implementing and executing.
I’m more concerned about our DE play on the Strongside, and Dawkins could provide some relief there….but we lack rotational depth. Now I’m not sure ultimately where McAllister may end up, but he could be a rotational SDE until he grows into his frame enough to hold down a spot at DT, or until Cummings develops into a solid rotational contributor in year 2.
Either way it goes, I think that at the WDE position, Stevens and Jenkins have the tools to be special players on the edge. Maybe they don’t have the star power that we are used to seeing, but they both, IMO, have the make-up of a legitimate edge player at DE. Both will demonstrate their ability to get after the passer as well as set the edge in the running game with improvements and added size and strength at the DT spot.
Youth and lack of coaching at the DE spot combined with our lack of depth, size, and talent at DT are more to blame IMO for the lack of production from our WDE position in 2009 than the talent of the players at the position. If our DT’s can prove to be more capable of holding at the point of attack and pushing the pocket, we’ll see a tremendous uptick in the production of our WDE in 2009 IMO, and Stevens and Jenkins could prove to be the benefactors.
I agree with the Jenkins part
not sure I ever see Stevens as more than a 20-snap per game situational rusher. Nothing wrong with that.
One thing you didn’t mention was the coaching of JA
Jody Allen
Figured that I’d take the high road with Allen. But IMO, he deserves about as much dialogue as he’s contributed to our program during his time here….and I think I may have already exceeded the limit. He was a waste of a space on our staff and did nothing to contribute toward the development of our youngsters whether it be on or off the field.
It think that Eliot makes a significant difference in 2010. We do have some talent at the DE spot and with the proper oversight, could make a fairly significant contribution during their time in Tallahassee.
Hopefully with Eliot in the fold, we’ll see them take steps towards becoming better players, developing fundamentally, and making strides to improve the areas of their game which are lacking. They will be pushed this off-season to achieve certain benchmarks and with Viloria and Eliot overseeing their off-season program, I’m sure they will be held accountable to those benchmarks.
We're pretty much open to ripping or praising anyone here
He did a disservice to our DE’s. Let’s see Eliot make it happen.
We're all saying Trust in Trickett,
If DE improves over the next few years under Eliot, we can officially start saying, “Trust in Jimbo.”
I meant WDE...
"If lessons were learned in defeat, our team is getting a great education." -Murray Warmath
I expect the line play should be significantly better in 2010.
Maybe not elite yet or even above average, but significantly better. Granted, that may not be saying much given how poorly we played last year.
Thanks...
I don’t feel as anxious about loading up on DBs rather than DL-men now. Would love to see one of these depth write-ups about LBs.
The Fisher era has begun!
I feel better about the D-Line than I did a couple months ago.
I will, however, add one caveat to the above: it does not consider any attrition to injury/grades/etc. aside from forecasting Jackson could transfer. An injury to our 2-deep interior rotation (when is the last time that HASN’T happened?) will force either Dawkins back inside or will thrust one of the freshmen heavily into the mix, severely damaging both inside and outside depth/performance.
The reason we might want to take a reach on another DT is merely as a dice roll as an insurance policy — meaning, the more numbers you have, the better chance you have of finding a diamond in the rough. You really can’t project how a 17-19 year old is physically going to react to a collegiate-level strength/training program, so you potentially take a risk on a few and hopefully luck into getting a kid or kid(s) with the right genes. Eventually you can mitigate the damage to future recruiting classes/logjams at the position through the dreaded roster churning that we will likely be experiencing this season.
In the end, this is another case where trusting the coach’s judgment is about the only thing you can do, as they’re the ones in the best position to estimate how much of a chance a guy has of panning out in short term. After all, we do have a staff of committed professionals now, and their job(s) will depend on the performance of this unit.
An injury to our 2-deep interior rotation (when is the last time that HASN’T happened?) will force either Dawkins back inside or will thrust one of the freshmen heavily into the mix, severely damaging both inside and outside depth/performance.
True, but would taking another freshman help this?
The reason we might want to take a reach on another DT is merely as a dice roll as an insurance policy — meaning, the more numbers you have, the better chance you have of finding a diamond in the rough. You really can’t project how a 17-19 year old is physically going to react to a collegiate-level strength/training program, so you potentially take a risk on a few and hopefully luck into getting a kid or kid(s) with the right genes. Eventually you can mitigate the damage to future recruiting classes/logjams at the position through the dreaded roster churning that we will likely be experiencing this season.
I agree with this. But how long will it take you to know whether your piece of coal is a diamond? If that piece of coal is on the roster next season it might really scare off some good defensive linemen recruits.
True about how long it takes to ID the diamonds, and having them on roster even through for Fall 2010 could be detrimental.
Maybe we let physics teach us a lesson. Apply more pressure — either turn ‘em into diamonds or run them off in fall camp. Odell’s not that type of coach, but…
Wanting to win now
Totally agree on the rarity of frosh DT getting playing time. A year in the system is almost always a must, and Jacobbi laid it all out for us this year.
However, I think when all the analysis is said and done the concern that many posters have (and arrdub hints at it above) is that we just scratch our heads over coaches saying “we’re full” to a recruit before we in fact are not…and then losing any other potential recruit we hope is on board.
We want our cup to be full now, AND next year too. To have to wait one more year for top level DE & DT is frustrating, and even more so when you hear FSU is losing DT recruits and is turning some away. I trust in Jimbo in all facets of the program, but think that the improvement of this team hinders upon the success of the DL…and to have to wait any longer is hard to swallow….TWSS
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Jan 22, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
But would it be worth taking a shot at someone like Chandler?
A) Foot in the door @ Miami Northwestern
2) Similar build to Jacobbi
D) 4* ESPNU150 prospect
Green) We could always encourage transfers :)
It would if we didn't have something better in mind for this class
Which is why I think our staff knows a lot more about Lemonier, Smith, Ferguson, Werner, Deas, and a possible mystery guy from the Atlanta area than anyone else.
We're in line to land a lot of talented guys in 2011 on the DLine
Derrick Mitchell
6’5", 265 / DL / First Coast
Favorite(s): Florida State probable 4*
28. Brandon Fulse
6’5", 250 / DE / Fort Meade
Favorite(s): Florida, Georgia, Florida State (though we want him at tight end I think), 4*
Bryant Dubose
6’4", 245 / DE / Northeast 4* type
Anthony Chickillo
6’3", 225 / DE / Alonso (MAYBE but his dad and grandpa played for Miami. But alonso is demonte’s school.
Deon Lee
6’4", 230 / DE / Walton 4*
Ryan Shazier
6’3", 200 / DE / Plantation 4*
Aaron Lynch
6’5", 235 / DE / Island Coast
Favorite(s): Florida State 3*
Ryan Bryson
6’4", 260 / DE / Pedro Menendez 3*
6. Ray Drew
6’5", 230 / DE / Thomas County
Jonathan Battle
6’1", 280 / DT / Americus Sumter
Favorite(s): Georgia, Florida State, Georgia Tech 4* type
Jarquez Samuel
6’5", 240 / DE / Valdosta
Favorite(s): Georgia, South Carolina, Florida State, 4*
and there will be a lot more, of course
5. Terry Redden/DT
Is Jernigan still a heavy UF lean with Strong gone?
If we could steal one from UF (this year or next), he’s the one I would want.
by basbalstr101 on Jan 22, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
Not to get too far off topic
But I think a lot more help will come from simply using our defensive ends the way they are supposed to be used. They were out of position all year long and lost contain pretty much after the spear was planted or when the team ran on the field.
Hopefully the new DE coach (Eliot, I believe) when show them how to play in such a manner that helps us have a fundamentally sound defensive line until we can get elite talent recruited and train the elite talent we already have.
Not to mention, LBs doing the right thing will also make our line stronger and harder to run against.
I am excited about where this line can take us, will it be top 5 against the run…probably not…but considering how bad it has been lately….I would think even an average improvement would make it look drastically better.
Great article!
Nice and sobering look at how concerned Nole fans should exhale , relax and be thankful for our promising class, coaching staff and reminder that 17 year old kids are just that.
I agree with the need for a look at linebacker
I actually feel that our DL will be very servicable next year.
I think that Nigel Bradham is going to be a great anchor, but the other players that came into class with him have not had a chance to develop or just have not developed, though they all possess similair size and speed.
Luc may find himself starting, but I’d rather use him in 1st down situations only
Mistake referring to 2010 class
It is a year in which the available elite talent is heavy on defensive backs and defensive linemen.
Maybe you meant to say linebackers instead of DLs.
By my count we take 4-6 LBs this class: Luc, C.Jones, T.Smith, Holmes O., Terrell, & Akuna. I think we get all of them.
Smith is looking and Akuna hasn’t committed yet, but has an OV scheduled for 1/29.
Some think Jones to USC, Smith switches to Ga., & Akuna goes to Oregon. But I don’t think there is any way we take only 3.
Kitchens could be a backup plan if he doesn’t go to U-Turds.
Seems like LBs are loaded rather than DLs, and I think the rest of the article pretty much says that there is not an abundance of quality DLs this year.
Still, C.Jones could play DE. There are Lemonier, Smith, Ferguson, Werner, Young, Kirksey, Chandler, Copeland, & Deas as options for additional DLs. I think we take at least three of those which would put us at 16, one being Werner. We told Copeland we are full and Chandler cancelled his visit, possibly b/c we told him the same. Both Chandler and Copeland can play, which makes me think our staff knows a lot more about Lemonier, Smith, Ferguson, Werner, & Deas than anyone else.
If our DL depth is shallow, it will be by design of Jimbo, Stoops, Hudson, Coley, Eliot, Haggins, and Gran. All of those guys either know the dynamics of recruiting or what it will take to bring our D back far better than any of us. I think we’ll be fine and I think we have at least three more DL recruits committing.
Great write-up by the way.
Thanks! Fixed.
I don’t think C Jones will play DE for us and he’s stated he wants to be LB.
here are Lemonier, Smith, Ferguson, Werner, Young, Kirksey, Deas
I like our chances with Lemonier. Rumor is Smith’s dad is shopping him to the highest bidder. Werner’s HS coach is tight with the Oregon coach from his days in new Hampshire. Young is a possible sign and place JUCO who guy needs to drop 40lbs and add a full point to his GPA. Kirksey doesn’t have the frame to play for us. Deas is apparently less of a player now than he was in HS, which is concerning.
We have a kid in Atlanta who we feel good about but I am not sure who it is. Plays DT.
C. Jones could find himself being a 3rd down pass rush specialist, which is all I intended regarding him playing DE
Helps with the rotation.
Rumor has it that Werner loved his visit and made up his mind immediately after. Not saying things couldn’t change, but we have good odds IMO.
If Smith’s dad is shopping him, we might very well be the highest bidder to help with Lemon & because we have the highest need. Maybe we saved some $ in hiring Eliot which could be put to good use.
I didn’t really see us taking Young & Kirksey, which is why I said
Both Chandler and Copeland can play, which makes me think our staff knows a lot more about Lemonier, Smith, Ferguson, Werner, & Deas than anyone else.
I didn’t mention Young & Kirksey b/c I think they are ours if we want them. I was just pointing out that if our coaches thought we absolutely needed more #s, we have options. If we needed more numbers, we would’ve pressed Copeland & Chandler more IMO. I also didn’t mention Delvin Jones b/c I do not think we take any of those five (Young, Kirksey, Copeland, Chandler, D. Jones) in this class.
The big deal with Deas is grades rather than performance. He’s a big body that I think our coaches can motivate to turn the fire back on. Give the kid a chance to have the spotlight at a major program and I think he shines. Purple pimp suit makes me think he thrives in the spotlight. Big man on campus in HS=thrives. Am skeptical about how much prestige comes with playing JUCO ball=drop off. Playing for FSU & training with Viloria = menacing terror. I think he would play his heart out to fight for PT against McCray & McDaniel.
You must be right
I think I should go with the coaches, let alone the entire recruiting contributors at TN, that they probably know more than poster Ryno and I Know about their recruting options. Nuff said.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Jan 22, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
Edit
Non sarcasm font
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Jan 22, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
A couple things
First, not to pick nits but “So current roster (9) + incoming recruits (4) = 13” it’s actually 10 current + 3 incoming = 13. Now, that I’m satisfied from an Anal Retentive POV :-):
I feel a little better after reading the article. But we’ve got to get to a point where we don’t need the Freshman DL to contribute. I think kids coming in like Amp certainly can, but it would be awesome to have the luxury to RS Darious (I’m assuming Cam Erving gets a RS unless something drastic happens in terms of injuries). It would have been great to give Moses a RS, or even Everett, but the lack of depth kept it from happening.
Bottom line: we’ve got to recruit better, which I think we will, and this will allow us to RS those kids to give them a year to get bigger and stronger. That will maximize our ROI with these kids.
Technically
McCloud is a recruit, he’s just on campus in the spring. Not unlike the fact that Luc and Trickett are recruits that we talk about, but are also on campus. Just playing devil’s advocate :)
by freshcollegeboy on Jan 22, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
Putting Amp in the current roster makes sense by chicken counting standards.
None of the other commits are guaranteed to stick or make the grade prior to Feb and Aug, respectively.
Kinda related
do you think taking only 1-2 OL hurts us on O like the dismal ’06 & ’07 classes did on DL?
And obviously not comprised of "Fair weather" fans
Much more participation than any other blog. I know fans of others squad check this out, their even starting to post on occasion. I read for three months before I humbly decided to jump in
by westcoastnolefan on Jan 22, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
Be patient
I know we all are chompin at the bit for FSU to contend again, but it will take a couple of years. The Noles love for Bowden allowed our team to slip from about the time Richt left for UGA. It will take time, but Jimbo knows what he’s doing. He learned under Saban and his system works. We will be good again, but not immediately, so be patient and enjoy the ride.
by NoleySmokes on Jan 22, 2010 2:58 PM EST via mobile reply actions
All human wisdom is summed up in two words - wait and hope
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
by FrankDNole on Jan 22, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
All things come to him who waits - provided he knows what he is waiting for.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
HAH!!! Gonna have to tell my father in law that one!
This is an un-related joke:
How do you make a napkin dance?
Put a little boogie in it.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
Meh,
as long as it gets out of the nose who cares where it goes.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
BTW
BB earned the love, don’t get me wrong…
by NoleySmokes on Jan 22, 2010 3:00 PM EST via mobile reply actions
good read....at right time! thanks.
I would like Corey Lemonier in this class. Along with C jones, who might end on DL when all said and done. Did we offer a commitable sholly to Werner? and who else to? Ego? C smith? re-thinking that one there now after read….do we want C Smith now?
The "tea leaves" say we're in good shape with Lemon and Werner.
Werner made up his mind right after FSU visit (and his teammate’s commitment to FSU), and there appears to be a stark contrast in “insider” opinions about Lemonier…. Miami folks appear pretty despondent about their chances, while Noles are optimistic.
Certainly the most confidence has been expressed by these two groups' interwebz contiingents.
May be a case where he’s told Miami “no thanks” and they’re assuming FSU… but we may both be on the outside looking in. I can’t believe Chizik is having such success. I don’t know much about him, other than he had an unimpressive record coming in. Makes me think he is Zook v2.0.
I did just find this on him from his wikipedia entry, which is another encouraging anecdote relative to our prospects for improvement on D:
The Cyclones also experienced a notable improvement on defense. In the year prior to Chizik’s arrival, Iowa State was ranked 102nd nationally in total defense11 and in Chizik’s first year, they improved to 65th.
But Auburn fired him coming off a 2-10 season in 2008 with only victories over Kent State and South Dakota State. 10 straight losses = big promotion. Weird.
It seems everyone is saying FSU v UM OR FSU v AU
I like that we are the constant.
I was thinking AU comes in second, but SWFL thinks UM is second.
Great article...
As always, nice insight. One question – instead of trying to pull in an extra HS Senior recruit, why not shoot for an additional JUCO that could give us size, depth and experience right away? That would bump up our numbers and would not have to “sell” an above-average HS recruit on early playing time. Also, would not affect 2011 recruits, as the JUCO would probably be out in 2-3 years (1-2 by the time they got to campus). Any thoughts on whether we are pursuing this strategy to fill remaining spot(s)?
Thanks!!
Talking about an additional JUCO for this year?
I’d take him if he was out there. Some say that guy is Deas, but I am not so sure.
Anybody know ...
…where Coley was today? He tweeted “Mission Accomplished” a few minutes ago.
In the Muck I thought...
I could be wrong though
Probably found a 1* from Alaska to take his spot.
by NoleLaw on Jan 22, 2010 8:50 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I would love it
if Deas could qualify. He’s the run stuffer we need and could contribute immediately IMO. I like that we have a bright future in the defensive trenches, but fella, we need help NOW. I love the Macs, but they’re at least an offseason under Viloria from becoming dominant.
Dominant is a plus
I just want the DL and DE to be average next season.
by FloridaStateJay on Jan 22, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
Flipping the bird. Nice.
I didn’t realize that is the trainer. Thought he might be visiting ND.
Hopefully our facilities are nicer than that.
Looks totally different than in that purple pimp suit.
Purple pimp suit pic? Bueler?
Perspective.
That chick is 6’3" and weighs 240
hey fsuncensored
I live in ft.laud. i normally just read, i had to comment on this. mr.deas is really a massive man. I work in the school system in broward co. my daughter teaches at dillard. a couple of years ago, i passed on fsu interest to his football coach. i told him, while seeing him out in a store that he was needed at fsu. he is tall.the last time i saw him—-at least 6’4.he may not be 330 pounds, but i can attest that he is a grown-azz man. go noles!!!!!!!!!!
Hmm this goes against a report from a buddy who played with Deas. Frederic where are you?
365 days, until I change my ways.
I'm curious swflnole what this frederic could really say!
deas old coach is at boyd anderson high now. he is a very nice fellow and will answer all questions.
And how tall are you shaker?
Short people swear I’m 6’4", but I’m only 6’2" or so. Shoes with substantial soles also can play tricks on the eyes.
Does any one know what McAllister weighs these days?
Also, am I the only one concerned about him playing DT? I see him more as an end. I get that he gives us the 4th DT that is not a true Fresh…he just seems a little small. I would feel pretty good about our depth at end with Dawkins and McAllister, but that only leaves us with 3 DTs. Don’t get me wrong, I like J MC and Moses; and have high hopes for Amp. But I am not so naive as to think 3 tackles will get us through the season.
by mountain renegade on Jan 22, 2010 4:44 PM EST reply actions
I'm not sure how much Demonte weighs. We don't need him to be 300+ provided he can be a good 3-tech
I think we might be deeper at end than Tackle if we move Demonte
Fair enough...
I’ll gladly sacrifice a little size for good technique.
This brings me to a question regarding size. I have been converted and whole heartedly believe that size does matter; but, at what point does the law of diminishing returns kick in? For example, if would could (hypothetically) recruit 7 sumo wrestlers weighing 400 pounds each, we would be at 2800#s on our front 7. Granted, no one would be able to run up the middle, but the pass protection would be atrocious. (Disclaimer: I realize that I am taking things to the absurd to make a point and also grant that Sumo wrestlers probably don’t have the football knowledge or experience.)
by mountain renegade on Jan 22, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
Finding that optimal mix is key
That’s really for the coaches to decide. Considering our state, I think you recruit the size and assume the speed will be adequate.
This you have to look for both.
This isn’t the Big 10… =)
"If lessons were learned in defeat, our team is getting a great education." -Murray Warmath
I do not think there is a linear relationship between size and performance.
The winning formula contains a combination of size and speed. Something like (weight + 200) / speed squared or something. If the sumos can all run 4.4s, there is no diminshing return. Wildheart or someone posted a link re: NFL combine formula for RBs.
Link? Buehler?
I think if you were to attempt to discover a linear relationship,
you would also need to find a way to factor in coaching (in addition to speed and size). I would also add the condition that it has to be good size, otherwise we would be recruiting shut-ins :-) But as you pointed out, if the shut-in can run a 4.4, thenhell let’s give ’em a shot.
by mountain renegade on Jan 22, 2010 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
nah, just give them the "freedom system"
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
Some scrub d-lineman nobody is talking about :-)
by westcoastnolefan on Jan 22, 2010 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
aint no scrub
Cory Lemoiner is a 4 star defensive lineman.
http://rivals.yahoo.com/floridastate/football/recruiting/player-Corey-Lemonier-88742
by dutchmaster75 on Jan 23, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
Never heard of him.
Surprised his name has never come up here on TN, ever. =)
dutchmaster75, Welcome to TN and thanks for joining and posting. Since you are new, I just wanted to let you know that westcoast was being sarcastic. Ignore the snarks and please stick around and soon you will be up to speed.
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Again welcome.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
by FrankDNole on Jan 23, 2010 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I was kidding. Lemonier is an absolute must get for the Noles
I was simply piggybacking off RaysnNoles attempt at sarcasm. Lemonier is a frequent topic of discussion. He has us Nole supporters on pins and needles to be honest
by westcoastnolefan on Jan 24, 2010 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
Grasshoppers
Beware of the man who would deny you information for in his heart he views himself as your master
A casual stroll through the mental asylum shows that faith does not prove anything…Nietzsche
"Beware of the pedant, the man in the ivory tower, who cannot be trusted any more than the rabble of the streets. Too long cloistered in the halls of academe, the first are dangerous, for they fail to understand the world, and know not reality. The second are like a mindless storm, roaring and insatiable, full of rage, and a self righteous and acquisitive passion Cicero
How good bad music and bad reason sound when one marches against an enemy…Nietzsche
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of the truth than lies…..Nietzsche
All sciences are now under the obligation to prepare the ground for the future task of the philosopher, which is to solve the problem of value, to determine the true hierarchy of values. …Nietzsche
Skepticism taken to the extreme is just another form of delusion….Master Po
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
Yesterday's in the past...
Tomorrow’s a mystery, Today’s a gift , that’s why they call it the “present”.
Thats a 2011 graph you are looking at, i believe.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
Will Jacobbi perform differently with more help
How many double and triple teams did we see on him this year?
Chief Osceola
Looking at the DTs in Georgia
Listed in Rivals top 80 DTs. Im not sure if any of these would be the mystery guy talked about. But I just wanted to grab the list.
Jeffrey Whitaker (Warner Robins, GA) – Not committed, but FSU not listed as high on his list.
Garrison Smith (Atlanta, GA) – Committed to GA.
Mike Thornton (Stone Mountain, GA) – Not committed, no mention of FSU.
Denzel McCoy (Duluth, GA) – Committed to G-Tech.
Kyle Woestmann (Marietta, GA) – Committed to Vandy.
Shawn Green (Loganville, GA) – Committed to G-Tech.
Jerome Davis (Buford, GA) – Not committed, no mention of FSU.
Scardino Daniels
How come no one has mentioned his name, he is a JUCO DT from the same school in MS as Charles Deas? 6-5 270.
He has been brought up before I can't remember just when or the circumstances.
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
Well well well long time no see
Sorry I havent said much but now its time to talk. I think we are going to be ok in the end. We need to get some beef on the line but I think the best way to look a this is if we get them now and get a chance to get better players next year then well take them now and make them fight for the right to stay. its a one year deal only and if we get a 5* next season we drop a player like we should have with Budd last year. The bad thing is I dont want to be a team bassed on talent alone.
Last I think us getting a 280+ DE its almost like having a DT that is 360. Sounds crazy but when a OT or OG has to block a smaller guy its almost like a brake. Think like this when you go from pushing a 280 DT around and go to a 240 or 250 DE thats 30+ lb and kinda like a brake. then go to a 210-230 LB some thing and from what I get we are tring to get all the weight we can with the fount 7 with more spped too. Everything will be ok.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Great to see ya Des
where the hell have you been?
Work Ive been reading when I can just a lot going on in the Army these days.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Toshmon Stevens weight
I believe that Toshmon will gain the weight needed to play at the DE position. I know his father and uncle and if you go by them they are big men. His father is 6’7" 280lbs and his uncle is 6’3" 320lbs so if you go by that which you could make a strong case for he will indeed have the weight necessary to play at the DE position. P.S. Jenkins played great as a true freshman. I think FSU has a bright future on the DL.
My concern now is...
we have discussed the need for depth along the DL ad nauseam yet we list all three true freshmen DT’s were bring in (Jacobs, Erving and unnamed commitment likely to be Smith) as redshirting next season. Does that mean we are gonna roll with just 4 DTs? Doesn’t that seem exceptionally thin? I’d be surprised if all three of them were to redshirt in this situation.
Also, now it appears we might bring in as many as 4 more DL (Werner, Smith, Lemonier and God willing, Ferguson). That puts us at or near 17, now if we count Jackson as an casualty of the program and then think of Markus’s graduation, we’d be at 15 players. Are we going to be able to sign anyone from the deep talent pool in next year’s DL class with that many DLmen on roster?
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