FSU basketball and the woes of Leonard Hamilton
by SeminoleSeth on Jan 31, 2010 1:25 PM EST
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FSU has made great strides with their basketball program since the team was taken over by Leonard Hamilton and his staff 8 years ago. But while the recruiting efforts, defense and player development have been extraordinary, the squad has lacked identity on the offensive end of the court. I have tried yelling at the TV, and have pulled my hair out at many home games, but they don’t seem to hear me, so I figured what better place to vent then my new blog.
I understand that Hamilton is a fantastic recruiter and defensive coach, and that he delegates most of his offensive strategy and play calling to Stan Jones and Andy Enfield, but they just don’t seem to be getting the job done. If they were the offensive coordinators for the FSU football team, they would have been ran out-of-town by the boosters 5 years ago, yet because Basketball comes second or even third in the eyes of the men with money, their has been no outrage.
Here are some of the things that drive me crazy
1. We never seem to call plays after timeout’s, which is basketball 101..you should have a guaranteed open look coming out of a timeout
2. FSU now has one of the tallest teams in the NCAA including Solomon Alabi who is 7-1 and is turning into a force with the ball in his hands and at the free throw line..yet..we don’t give him the ball!!!! HE SHOULD TOUCH THE BALL EVERY POSSESSION..he doesnt have to shoot but he is beginning to demand a double team which will create open looks. Last game vs. Georgia tech he only touched the ball 4 times total on the offensive end during the first half..unreal!! The whole first half he was setting picks out by the 3 point line when he is not a pick and pop player!!
3. STOP SUBBING OUT PLAYERS WHEN THEY ARE PLAYING WELL TOGETHER!!! I understand if a player gets tired every once in a while, but too many times we go on a run and Hamilton subs out the point guard or the big man who is hot and not tired…let your players get some DAMN CONTINUITY!!
4. Try and develop an offensive identity. We have no Idea what kind of team to be on the offensive end of the floor. Do we play a triangle offense with the big men? high pick and roll? dribble drive? No, we are going to run the same low picks for our guards who run around in circles on the perimeter and have no idea what to do with the ball.
5. Run some plays for your stars..Alabi and Singleton are very skilled…lets give them some set plays instead of making them create on their own
FSU basketball will continue their success because of the great defense and top talent that Hamilton and his staff bring to the table, but we will never get to the next level untill we bring in a coach that can teach a successful offensive system to these kids.
–thanks for letting me vent
Coaching Staff
Head Coach: Leonard Hamilton
Associate Head Coach: Stan Jones
Assistant Coaches: Andy Enfield, Corey Williams
Strength and Conditioning Coach: Michael Bradley
Associate Trainer: Sam Lunt
Video Coordinator: Michael Fly
Director of Operations: Jacob Ridenhour
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Comparison
Basketball and Baseball coaches seem to have the same problem. Only good up until a certain level.
Martin's at least made it to the CWS multiple times and the finals as well.
Hamilton’s made one NCAAT and never gotten to the 2nd round.
Seth, you won't find many that disagree with you.
We win because of superior talent, not because of coaching.
Exactly
We’ve talked about this for the last 3 months or so. There are many positives to coach ham & his staff but some facts are just really hard to ignore. The mystery of the offense is certainly one as well as several, shall we say, basketball basics 101. Last year during the nccat my son, who is 15, a bball nut & lives in gville called me to ask if coach ham always managed games so badly? There are just certain aspects to the game that seem to be escaping the staff & the incremental progress that one would expect to see with the talent we have is as big a mystery as the wheel of fortune offense we run each time down the floor.
Yup
It is real hard to watch our talent go to waste. If we had an offensive system that utilized Alabi and Singleton, we could be a force. The defense, who is tops in the acc, is run by Hamilton, Would we be more effective if Hamilton were to bring in an assistant who knew the offensive side better than Stan Jones? If you look in our huddle during timeouts, it’s Stan calling the plays.
by SeminoleSeth on Feb 1, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Not so fast, my friends...
The Hamilton saga has now graduated from the “fire him because he can’t do it” motif to the “we will succeed somewhat but never all the way” plaintiff song. The journey back for FSU has been long and torturous. I am thankful that cooler heads prevailed in keeping Ham on board because “my” assessment (meaning, it could be wrong) is that we were at absolute ground zero when he came after the one-two punch of Pat Kennedy’s poor coaching and SR’s poor recruiting. By my estimate, we had two players on scholarship when Ham arrived who could have found a seat on the pine at other ACC schools. 8 years later and we have two Mickey-D AAs and a lottery pick center starting for us and a very solid ACC club. Yes. I agree, the offense and the turnovers are almost unbearable; but these guys are still young and all we really lack this season is…? Tony Douglas. You put him on this team and, as one announcer recently said, you have a final four candidate. I think we’re closer than people realize and, while Ham is probably not the greatest coach in the NCAA he is the best we’ve had and the best we’re likely to get any time soon. I like him and appreciate that FSU basketball is no longer a joke, thanks to Ham and the staff.
fm
Dogs bark in the night but the caravan moves on.
Though you make
some valid points you also make some excuses. “Ham is not the greatest but he’s the best we’re likely to get anytime soon.” Really? I don’t buy it. There’s always some guy looking to make a name for himself who “get’s it”. Yes we are young but there are plenty of Freshman & Sophomores in our own conference on other teams who are playing better, smarter ball than our guys. If we were playing just slightly better on offense we could easily be a top 5 team sitting at 20-1 & leading the ACC.
Replacement Candidates of Hamilton
Here is a list I put together of some of the best up-and-coming coaches, all of which I believe we could get to replace Ham.
Brian Gregory – HC at University of Dayton. He was an assistant at Michigan State under Tom Izzo. As Flyers head coach, he led the team to the 2004 NCAA tournament and the 2009 NCAA tournament.
Scott Sutton – HC at Oral Roberts. The youngest son of legendary Eddie Sutton (pedigree to sell) led Oral Roberts to three straight NCAA tournament appearances. His name has been mentioned in the open positions at Missouri State and TCU, and 2 years ago turned down the position at Wichita State.
John Groce – Asst. Coach at Ohio State. At age 35, has already been a coach for 14 years, first cracking a division I staff under Herb Sendek at NC State, and now serves under Thad Motta. Is largely responsible for Ohio State’s back-to-back top five recruiting classes that included Greg Oden and Mike Conley, Jr.
Mark Montgomery – Associate HC at Michigan State. He has been with Tom Izzo for six seasons now. Considering Izzo’s track record of sending his top assistants off to head coaching positions, this one is a no-brainer.
Yeah
that whole Memphis hire with Josh what’s his name has been just terrible. Seriously when considering a hire in BBall you really have to look at the person.
I would if I thought they were the best available and better than our current coach.
I was saying I don’t want FSU to be some coaches first head coaching gig.
You can't use the "these guys are still young" argument in college basketball
There is no expectation that a player will stick around for 3 or 4 years in a program in college anymore. Once a player is strong enough to enter the draft and go in the first round, they usually do. You should not want a team full of guys who aren’t good enough to go in the draft. NBA teams look down on 24 year old players (Al Thornton) entering the draft. They’d rather take a slightly more raw, but very talented 19 year old any day. When Singleton and Snaer committed to FSU, there was talk of both potentially being “one-and-done.” Had they been given better coaching, that might have happened. Some people may say that, after Von Wafer left following a single year in the program, Ham pushed to get players who wouldn’t leave so quickly. However, just like in football where JF is telling certain recruits “we want you here for 3 years and then straight to the draft,” Ham should be getting players ready for the pros, not just riding on their talented coat-tails to coaching job security.
Why is he the best we're likely to have anytime soon?
Do you honestly not think we could get a better coach than Hamilton for what we’re paying him?
No, we cant do better than Hamilton. We are not a premier basketball school.
We dont have tradition to sell, we dont have the atmosphere to sell. What is a selling point to come and stay at FSU?
I would(sadly) almost go as far as to say that if we had a stud up and coming coach, he might leave us (treating us like a feeder school) to a big name program.
FSU is not a basketball school, its not a destination job for these coaches. Maybe one day…
Admittedly, I dont
You say that though, and offer no solution. Before we fire him we should have a list of guys in mind that will be able to do at least as well as Ham. Lets see that list.
Dont raise problems, bring solutions.
I read your list, and thought it was a good one.
I was just tellin Trick that he should do the same. What good is it to say we need XYZ if you dont mention a replacement. I happen to like that guy at Dayton, what little I have heard about him. I just dont know that he would do better at FSU than Ham.
Hey, you had a great writeup
obviously know better than me. Im just thinking its better to work with the devil I know over the devil I dont
The reason I'm against BG is because he's the same kind of coach Ham is.
All athleticism and defense. No offense. My two favorite schools are like mirror images of each other. And while we are having an off year at the free throw line, UD always struggles there. He’s a good recruiter, though, and has done fairly well to replace Purnell after he left for Clemson, but I don’t see him as an upgrade.
Me and Randall W. Spetman have had this discussion in a few separate threads.
Hamilton makes $1.5M/year, which is actually around the 25th highest paid coach in basketball. We are by no means the 25th best “program” in basketball.
On top of what basaltrock said, I’d suggest a Scott Drew or Brad Stevens type coach.
I would at least contact Jamie Dixon, Jay Wright and Matt Painter. They are all at better programs than FSU, but I think we may be paying Hamilton more than any of them are currently making. It’s worth a phone call.
If we are going to pay a coach top 25 salary, I want the coach to be a top 25 coach. It’s like us paying T.K. Wetherell $700K+ the past few years (top 10 public university salary for a president) despite being the ~50th best public per the US News and World Report rankings.
If Cowher or Shanahan would have accepted the salary at Buffalo
they would have been in the top 3 or 4 paid head coaches, and I dont think they qualify as top 3-4 coaches. The point being, when you are in a place that doesnt sell itself, you have to overpay. I dont think its all that relevant unless we are in top 10 salaries.
Out of curiosity, which coaches are better?
Belichick
Reid(?)
Who else? I’m probably missing a few that I think have proven themselves.
The point is, we are only within $500K or so of paying a top 10 type salary. And would you honestly be opposed to paying a Wright, Dixon or Painter a measly $500K more than Hamilton if it meant we could land them?
IMO
I think
Belichek and Ryan (I know its early, but its his first year, and he was a great coordinator), and Im def not happy to say either of their names.
Sean Payton
Jeff FIsher.
Yea, I didn't say Ryan because it's pretty soon.
I think Payton is good, as is Fisher, but both Cowher and Shannahan are Super Bowl Champions.
Shany has not done anything without elway
arguably(not by me, but by others) to be a top 4 QB alltime. Lets just say Im not impressed.
Cowher, he is very good. I mentioned them only to prove a point. Sometimes $ isnt an actual barometer of worth. Maybe I should have mentioned players that only stay in an unpopular city because they are getting paid way over market value.
I was only looking at this as a side conversation.
Should Belichick’s Super Bowls be stricken from him because he had Tom Brady? I don’t agree with that reasoning.
That isnt even remotely fair
Im not going into why bc I refuse to defend that jerk, but needless to say, you are comparing apples to oranges IMO
I dont agree.
Belichek is a defensive guy. His bread and butter was taking a teams strength on offense, and making it a weakness.
Belichek knew well enough to let Brady do his thing.
Shany has never been able to get a respectable defense. He also only won with one of the greatest QBs ever(according to some, not me) and AFTER he got a ridiculous RB in Tdavis.
I dont think its similar, I think Shanahan is overrated.
By those standards, prior to his extension he was guaranteed 800K, which barely kept him in the top 100.
So this is the first year of his ~25th salary, and we’re in 4th in the ACC, 24th at KenPom, 29 RPI. So, by your scale, he’s right on track.
And if you think Dixon or Wright or would come coach in the ACC backwaters you have a very skewed image of the national stature of FSU basketball. Besides, they both already make more than Ham.
Can you provide a link showing how much they make?
And I don’t think you understood anything I said. We may be about the 25th best team THIS season, but by no means are we a top 25 PROGRAM. It’s like the opposite of football. This year we weren’t a top 25 team, but we are still a top 25 program. I agree that we’d have to (and are currently) overpay(ing) for a quality coach. But if we are willing to pay Hamilton that type of money, I’m making the assumption that the Boosters would be willing to pay more than that for a much better coach.
I also don’t recall saying a Dixon or Wright or Painter would come to FSU. I do see where I said we should give them a call if we are currently paying a lesser coach more money than any of them are making. How can that hurt? You say we’re 4th in the ACC and then call us the ACC backwaters in the next sentence. Which is it? We would have a similar amount of talent as at their current schools. The whole crux of that grouping of coaches being possibilities is if we can pay them substantially more than their current salaries. If we can’t, obviously FSU would not be even a remote possibility. I did say they were all at better basketball programs than FSU.
We're 4th in the conference, AND we're in the ACC backwaters.
A couple good years doesn’t put us in the conversation with Duke and UNC, just like a horrible year for UNC doesn’t put them in the conversation with Miami.
For the salaries, google “[coach name] salary” – from what I read Dixon makes 1.5 plus much larger incentives than Ham, Wright makes something “just under 2.0” and Painter makes 800K and I have no idea what his incentives earn.
There have been a couple articles posted this year with incorrect/old salaries,
published by lazy editors I guess.
If we need a new coach.
I don’t like Hamilton as our coach, but if (big if’s, imo) we make the 2nd round of the NCAAT almost every year – and the Sweet Sixteen or further every few years, even I will have to quit calling for his job.
I'm certainly not a fan of his,
but although it took 8 years to accomplish what he should have done in 3 or 4, the end result is that we won 10 ACC games last year, appear to be on course for the tourney this year, and have a very good recruiting class that addresses needs for next year.
We Do Have Tradition
Got to go a little way back, but…In the early and mid 70’s the Metro Conference played some of the best ball on the east coast. Louisville, Memphis State, Cincinnati, and yes, Florida State, were national collegiate basketball power houses. Coach Hugh Durham had the boys hoopin’. In 1972, FSU rolled through an impossible NCAA bracket and soundly beat two extremely talented squads of Kentucky and North Carolina in hostile environments. In the national championship game, they fell just short against one of the best college basketball teams of all times. If FSU’s big men wouldn’t have gotten into early foul trouble, UCLA and the great John Wooden, would only be hanging five (5) Consecutive Title Banners today, instead of the seven they now boast. Bring back the hair…the cooool, and the winning.
by g8r-h8r on Jan 31, 2010 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I wasn't comparing us to them.
You’re right, though. Prior to the early 90’s they had almost no tradition. We at least had some. But I’m talking about in all of college basketball. If you look at every program in the nation, we don’t even sniff the top 50.
their run
which will include not making the Dance for the 3rd straight yr after this one. Donovan just had one of those once in a lifetime classes. Sort of like Kennedy’s lesser success w/ ward, cassel, sura. Give him credit. He didn’t screw it up but Donovan is a good coach, not a great coach.
That is awesome
I did not know that. Would have been sweet to be the team that knocked off UCLA. Damnit, not Im frustrated lol.
Early to Mid 70's FSU Basketball: Let's Learn From History
Sometimes knowing you can, is helped by knowing you already DID. I was fortunate-enough to remember those great FSU teams. That 72 Championship Game, in particular, was one for the ages. If that game was played with today’s college basketball rules, FSU would have run that great UCLA team out of the gym and beaten them by 20 points. Our excellent shooting guards would have gotten 3’s instead of 2’s. More telling, UCLA was able to take FSU out of its full court game strength with a tactic called stalling, where they would literally hold the ball, stall the game and take their sweet time to find their big man open under the basket. Didn’t seem fair, but this stalling was perfectly legal. However, from a fan perspective, it was horrible to watch, hence, the NCAA changed the rules and installed a shot clock. UCLA used the rules to their advantage to negate FSU’s vastly superior athleticism. Even worse, was how Kentucky tried (and still lost) this tactic on FSU in the semi-final round, sometimes holding the ball for up to 5 minutes…just terrible. It was so boring to watch and frustrating to see opposing teams resort to those tactics to negate the unbelievable talent of FSU. Sorry you missed that era, but hopefully, we can wake up the spirit of seasons past. BTW, the snappy dressers in the picture above are of FSU-greats Reggie Royals, Otto Petty, and Ron King on campus. Those early-years exploits weren’t bad for a “girl’s school.” (The Gators, of course, were green from envy.)
Dealing with the present
Until there’s change, we should at least be adamant via TN, call-ins to Jeff Cameron, postings to Ira Schoffel on the Dumb-ocrat and whatever means possible to advocate for change with the current staff.
I for one think that there are 4-5 measures the current coaching staff can take that will maximize the potential of this year’s team. What we can’t change is getting a better point gaurd in terms of skills, but even to that extent, a floor leader, unless someone chooses to stand up. In the meantime, I think the shortcomings of this staff can appease the fanbase immediately if they demanded the following:
A) MAXIMUM Eight 3PT attempts a game, with half coming from Dulkys. Total nonsense how we are killing possessions and even shot clock time by chucking up early and unadvised threes. Zero patience by the team, and I believe this stems from not having leadership on how to run the offense. They are, in essence, flying blind, because they apparently have not had the skills given to them to produce. Its just, “hey, you’ve got talent….go out there and make things happen” (think FSU football on defense).
2) MAXIMUM 16 TO a game. The real key here as I have seen it with Kitch, Loucks is again, patience. They both seem too anxious when the other team is making a run to just take the ball up the floor in a controlled manner and pass at least three times before thinking about a shot. If the coaches can direct them, it will instill confidence and produce better results.
D) MINIMUM 68% free throw shooting a game. Under Stan Jones, we have done very well with free throws. I think we’ve struggled this year as much bc of talent (TD was money) as also confidence.
Google) MINIMUM two set plays for the end of half/game situations. Go ahead and use one of them at the end of the first half in each game, then come back with the other at the end of the 2nd half. The lack of knowledge on set plays speaks volumes to the offensive ineptitude of the coaches.
Each of these concepts must be drilled into the players during every practice. Make them run, pull them from the floor when the don’t follow the rules, do whatever you have to in order to get the players to believe you know what you’re doing as a staff on offense. Until we get a new coach, I think this is all we can hope for.
Whew, what a rant.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Feb 1, 2010 9:56 AM EST reply actions
Recalling the past can give us perspective today
I love your passion and desire to see our current program move forward. I’m with you 100%, but I was simply responding to posters who said FSU had NO basketball history or tradition. It almost seemed like people were saying, “Since we have no tradition or prior winning success, don’t expect for us to win today or anytime soon.” I just brought up our apparently-forgotten history, to take THAT excuse off the table. I agree with you, there is no excuse for excepting mediocrity today.
Ryno, we are on the same page
As I posted up top, we are a young team, but there is no excuse for our inept offense. Lack of set plays for our stars, quick substitutions , poor free-throw shooting and turnovers scream BAD COACHING. You must take the good with the bad. Our Defense is outstanding under Hamilton, and we are now attracting better talent, but to get to the next level the noles have to figure out an Identity on the offensive end of the floor.
by SeminoleSeth on Feb 1, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
What options do we have?
Have only been able to watch a couple of games this year so can’t, unfortunately, comment on the particulars on your post. In the games I’ve seen it was obvious we had no ball handlers. While I haven’t seen how this years team reacts to full court pressure, from the little I’ve seen, they wouldn’t fare well. What’s up with all the turnovers. I don’t know how you can coach ball handling skills. Coaching effectiveness aside, do you think we are an excellent ball-handling guard away from a legit run? If we can’t change the coaches on the court, we need to change the coaches on the court.
You guys crack me up
Coach Ham is the reigning ACC coach of the year. In the last 4 years, FSU has the 4th best ACC record…FOURTH BEST. I guess that means that there are 8 teams with coaches that also should be fired?
Come on guys…buck up. This Nole team is only getting better. The threes and FT’s will start falling, the defense will only get stronger…this team is gelling…by the end of the season FSU will be a team no one wants to play.
Gripper
Tied for 3rd through this year's games.
People can understandably be dismayed at how long it’s taken Ham to get us to this point, but we won 10 games last year, are currently tied for 4th this season, and have signed a very good recruiting class that addresses key needs.
We don't have top15 talent
We might have top 15 basketball athletic ability. There is a huge difference. We have a sure NBA draft pick who played the game for the first time 5-6 yrs ago and is very much learning how to play. We have another stellar athlete that is learning the position he now plays in the last yr and a half and doesn’t seem to have a high bball IQ. We have another stellar Fr athlete that is not as advanced in his skill set as the elite frosh (see a john wall) and thus follows up a great play w/ a walk or dribbling it off his foot. The rest are athletic role players at this point in their careers.
As others say, they will get better this yr. And the next 2 yrs they’ll be even better.
But we're aren't winning by enough!
My fear is that Ham will win a national championship this year and then we won’t be able to fire him!
I kid. I kid. But I did actually hear a UK fan say this on a radio call in show a few yrs back about Tubby Smith ( who’d already won one there – apparently not pretty enough). Some of you guys are starting to sound like UK bball fans.
I definitely hate winning ugly.
I can’t think of a single game against a decent opponent that we won handily. But, for the most part, we keep winning. If we are able to somehow ugly win our way into the Sweet Sixteen, I’ll not be as upset over it. I just hope we don’t lose while committing 20-25 TO’s and only making roughly the same amount of FG’s.
It’s not the results. It’s the process that bugs the crap out of me.
WIN is a WIN
dont give a crap how…just get it done. On a side note, Bestbuy is always happy to see me after a heartbreaking loss….
"You're either carrying a spear, or running from it"
by BigSpearDiplomacy on Feb 2, 2010 6:52 AM EST reply actions
Process isn't about one game.
It’s a way of doing business, so if Jimbo escaped with a win – yes, I’m sure he wouldn’t care how. The more important thing is having a process in place that leads to championship level play.
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