'Canes' Hire Of Al Golden May Signal "The u" Isn't "In It To Win It"
by Bud Elliott on Dec 14, 2010 3:42 PM EST
in FSU Football
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PrintThe white flag is creeping up the pole in Coral Gables. Membership in the state's big three for the Miami Hurricanes is dangerously close to being revoked. It may just be time to permanently downgrade expectations in Coral Gables. Or should it be Opa Locka, since the 'Canes no longer have a stadium. Little has changed for the program since I wrote about the organizational troubles back over the summer, or even as recently as November.
Miami wanted John Gruden, Bo Pelini, and Tommy Tubberville. None of them would give Miami the time of day.
The Canes landed Al Golden, a name unlikely to excite any Miami fans, because "the u" couldn't afford anyone better. Still, Golden was by far the best candidate with head coaching experience that Miami could afford. He's definitely better than the 55-year old CFL they were considering in Marc Trestman.
The bottom line here is that it isn't about the coach. It's about the program. Miami could hire Nick Saban and still not get to the national championship game because it doesn't have the resources to compete with the elite of the elite in college football.
So yes, Miami made the best hire it could afford to make. But that's a bit like saying "you throw pretty well... for a girl."
[We continue our series in looking at what the new hires by Florida State's rivals mean to the 'Noles.]
Golden As A Coach
Jason Whitlock follows MAC football quite closely and he had some interesting comments: 1, 2, 3, and 4. The most shocking thing to come out of that? Temple has the biggest football budget in the MAC. At Miami, Golden will have at best the fourth highest budget in the ACC. He also says that Temple takes a lot of kids with questionable academics. It it thought that Miami doesn't allow that to happen with the frequency it once did.
While questions about his game management abound, Golden is considered a good schematic coach, a developer of players, a good motivator, and a quality recruiter.
Faces Same Problems As Shannon
Al Golden is new, but the problems for Miami's program are not. Golden will face many of the same challenges faced by Shannon, and there is little reason to expect he will have answers for problems beyond his control.
Randy Shannon graduated his players at an amazing rate and in his last two seasons put a football team on the field that was always in the top quarter of college programs. And Miami fans just didn't care to come watch, drawing less than 30,000 fans in his final game. Miami expects Golden to continue to graduate his players at Shannon's rate and put a better product on the field. Good luck.
Right Place, Wrong Time
But with a new coach comes new excitement, or so they say. Every program has a set of die-hard fans and relies on filling the rest of the stadium with bandwagonners. For FSU, that group was about 60,000 in the lost decade. For Miami, that group is about 30,000, as we saw in the loss to USF. While I think it is unreasonable to believe Golden will excite the fan base, assume for a minute that he will, and that Miami will sell 10,000 more season tickets to reach 50% capacity at Land Shark Stadium. I think that assumption is preposterous, but arguendo, let's go with it.
Now look at the schedule and the home schedule in particular. Miami hosts Ohio State, Boston College, UVA, Georgia Tech, and Duke. Ouch. On the road Miami is at Marshall, at USF, at MD, at FSU, at UNC, and at VT.
In all likelihood, Golden is going to waste the first-year excitement on an 8-4 (maybe 9-3) campaign, including a really boring home schedule, with the exception of hosting Ohio State-- a game in which the Canes will be sure home underdogs.
Given defending champion Virginia Tech's preposterously easy ACC schedule next season, it is quite difficult to imagine Miami making the ACC championship game for the first time in its history.
No national title. No 10-2 type season. At best finishing with the ACC's 3rd bowl. Those 10,000 potential new fans we assumed above? Gone.
Golden says he is the luckiest coach in America. He's wrong. As shown by all the better candidates who turned it down, the situation he is stepping into is not one to be envied.
So Golden isn't likely to light the world on fire in his first year. What about 2012?
No. That window I mentioned above? 2011 is the last year it will be open for a few years. After 2011 Miami loses a ton of talent (21 seniors, including 13 starters and many other important reserves). And while many teams lose talent and replace it with more veteran talent, the Canes simply don't have the young players on their roster to do that. Why? Shannon's recruiting steadily declined after 2008, including a really poor effort in 2010 when he took an amazing number of scrubs after Miami wouldn't let him take the higher-rated players with lesser academic qualifications. It was a well-chronicled desperation move by Shannon to grab more players and improve the rating of his class on the recruiting sites. But Golden is stuck with those players nobody else wanted.
And what of the 2011 class that will sign in less than 50 days? Shannon left Golden with three commitments, one of which is not expected to qualify. Per Golden, zero of the commits are currently in the top 30 in the state. There is zero chance of Golden bringing in a class that is in the same stratosphere as those of FSU or UF, who already has an excellent class for Will Muschamp to maintain. The 2012 team won't have much if any help from talented sophomores, because the talent won't be coming this year.
While most teams do improve in the second year under a new head coach, Miami will be experiencing a talent drain in Golden's second year. That's a pretty unusual circumstance for a new head coach.
Perhaps Golden can remedy the problem via the JUCO circuit? Unlikely. Miami doesn't let in too many JUCO players under the current administration.
And Miami's 2012 schedule is killer. No game is a 100% loss, but Miami will likely be an underdog of 2 TDs against Notre Dame and FSU. They'll be smaller underdogs @ K-State to open the year, @ Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, NC State and UNC. Probably a tossup @ BC, @ Duke, @ UVA, USF, and Bethune Cookman. That's staring 6-6 in the face. Miami had less than 30K in the seats for USF when Miami was 7-4. How bad will attendance be if Miami is 5-6 and needing a win to make a bowl in the final game? Good luck with that.
A chance for success in the long term
There's little reason for Miami fans to be excited about the next two or three seasons. In a strange way, maybe it is a good thing that Miami can't afford to fire Golden.
If Golden is to succeed at Miami he needs a lot of breaks.
First, he will need minimum expectations no greater than 6-6 in 2012 and 8-4 in 2013. Miami just doesn't have the talent to expect more against its schedule. Plus, if Golden did pull a miracle and win quickly, he might take off for his Alma Mater, Penn State.
Second, he will need there to be no restrictions from the administration on JUCO players and high school recruits with questionable academics and character. The Canes do have the potential to be quite good again in 2014, but only if Golden nails the 2012 and 2013 recruiting classes. He won't be able to do that if he can't take advantage of the local talent. And he can't take advantage of the local talent if he isn't allowed to take kids with bare-bones academics and behavioral issues. It is the nature of South Florida recruiting.
Third, he's going to need to somehow get 2012 kids excited about Miami football. This is going to be extremely tough because cashing in on the "new coach" excitement bonus usually must happen in the first class. That won't happen for Golden because the vast majority of elite recruits this time are spoken for. So he'll have to try to raise the excitement level for the next class, which seems unlikely unless Miami can turn in a 10-win season or a division championship in 2011.
Fourth, he will need to convince the administration not to stupid stuff like schedule road games at Toledo, Kansas State, and Memphis.
Fifth, Miami's athletic director did not hire Golden. If Golden is 22-14 after three years, ticket sales are predictably awful, and Miami's program is even more distant from its great past, think the AD will stick his neck out for Golden, who he did not hire?
Finally, he's going to need a booster miracle. Miami hasn't shown the ability to spend for the support staff, coaching staff, facilities, etc. that it takes to be an elite program. Yes, the Canes will have a new athletic facility (not a stadium), but even Cane football people admit that upon completion, it still won't be the quality of a Florida or even Florida State. Miami is going to need money to pay for a quality staff. Yes, Golden may be able to bring some quality coaches with him from Temple, but the reality is that most of them are not likely to be stars. And what happens when star coaches come to Miami? They leave to make some real money. The only way Miami can prevent that is if it somehow gets some boosters to shell out the big bucks.
So if Miami is really, really patient with Golden, stops expecting quality attendance numbers, and drops this academic charade, this hire has a chance to pay off.
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FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st down.
by ricobert1 on Dec 14, 2010 3:55 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
More like golden shower
zing!
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Dec 14, 2010 4:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Golden must reverse this trend from last 3 years in order to have a job 3 years from now
FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st down.
Can I get a "falling falling falling splash" sound?
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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Can I get a "falling falling falling splash" sound?
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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Golden is gonna win 8 games next year and GTFO IMO
If that Penn State gig opens up. Don’t see him sticking around and being a coaching martyr for UM. That was the inherent risk in this hire imo
by westcoastnolefan on Dec 14, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
Got something better.
Donna Shallalalala is the Truck, Wiley is the U, Road Runner is FSU.
Think this works. If I had LSUFreek skills I could do something really good…
FSU Football, making bad teams look bad since 2010.
by onebarrelrum on Dec 14, 2010 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
There are a couple of things I think have to be mentioned with Golden
A) His main claim to fame is he started winning at Temple, which was terrible before he arrived. But before he arrived the Owls were a Big East team. Golden’s resurrection of the program is perfectly timed with their playing some of the worst teams in FBS.
2) The combined record of the teams Golden beat is 100-216. Against teams with winning records he was 2-24 in his five years and never beat a winning MAC team. That is a major red flag because it appears he shrinks in most big games.
D) This season the Owls were voted as favorites to win the MAC because of the talent Golden had brought to Philly. Their finish? 3rd in their own division. This actually leaves me with doubts as to his maximizing talent when you are alleged to have the biggest budget and most talent but can’t beat any team in the conference with a winning record.
For a bit of perspective on his MAC trouble, Brian Kelly took over Central Michigan and won the MAC in his third year. In five years Golden couldn’t beat a MAC team with a winning record.
by osceolafan2.0 on Dec 14, 2010 3:59 PM EST reply actions 21 recs
The Brian Kelly comparison is a good one. Great one, really.
The coach before Kelly never finished higher than 5th in the division in the 4 previous seasons.
As for the budget, Temple claims about $7M in football expenses with about $24.5M total athletic expenses. Looks like Miami is $7M/$25.5M, Ohio is $7.5/$22.5M, Northern Illinois is $6M/$18.5M and Central Michigan is $7M/$24.5M (some recent teams in the MAC CG). So I think Whitlock is incorrect to say their budget was larger than other MAC schools. This data is from the most recent year (link).
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
I'm looking at it now,
says Temple “Total football expenses” is a little over 10 Million. 28.7 total athletic expenses.
FSU Football, making bad teams look bad since 2010.
by onebarrelrum on Dec 14, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
Yup. I have no idea where I got those numbers. smh
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
You were right about
NIU numbers (only other one I checked), thinking maybe you just grabbed Central Michigan’s numbers for Temple on accident. They are the same in your post.
So it looks like Temple may have been outspending the next closest few teams by 3 million. Yikes.
Again take that survey with a grain of salt. Unless you want to believe Virginia spends more on football than FSU.
FSU Football, making bad teams look bad since 2010.
by onebarrelrum on Dec 14, 2010 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe. I went back and revised some numbers because I thought I wrote down revenues and not expenses. Screwed it up anyways. haha
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
If he can't beat good MAC teams with better talent
He’ll crying on the sideline in the fetal position by the end of the first half in Tally.
Canes No Longer Have a Stadium?
They never had a stadium. The Orange Bowl was NOT on the UM campus, and was owned by the City of Miami.
The didn't lease it from the phins...
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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Was wondering Bud
with all the players the U has sent to the NFL why hasnt there been any upgrades in facilites? I know the former players see how crappy the facilites are and how short Miami is on money. Why dont they just get togethere and write a big check to help. With all the chest poking out and pride they have about the U you would think they would try to help. Plus with all the losing thats going on they should be pissed at the fact they have become the 3rd best team in the state
Why don't Miami's former players give money back?
Defense attorneys are expensive.
by MattDNole on Dec 14, 2010 5:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
theres a reason the ND-UM game was billed as "catholics vs. convicts"
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Interesting tidbit on the "Catholics vs. Convicts" game.
Miami had more Catholics on their roster than Notre Dame did.
by Nole Resurrected on Dec 15, 2010 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
but did they have more convicts?
FSU Football, making bad teams look bad since 2010.
by onebarrelrum on Dec 15, 2010 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
Probably had more Irish, too.
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes
"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher
by Drew J Jones on Dec 15, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
Did't make comment
But I think it’s a joke, meaning the thugs in the nfl from um are spending their extra money on attornes to keep them out of jail.
by jskipnole on Dec 14, 2010 5:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Seems like many athletes do not.
No stats to verify that with though.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Well many (but not all) high-roller donors crave the access to the program that they otherwise wouldn't have
Former star players who made tons of money in the league usually have all the access they want, and they don’t have to spend a dime.
Former Student-Athletes are terrible at giving back
I believe the percentage of student-athletes that give back to athletic is below 10% nationally (I work in athletics fundraising)
Most former NFL players are broke inside of 5 years
Making more money doesn’t mean you save more money
by osceolafan2.0 on Dec 14, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
See Dana Stubblefield
Just got jail time for diverting his girlfriend’s support check to his address so he could steal it. Guy had something like an 8 million dollar signing bonus at some point in his career.
the fans will be leaving ft. lauderdale
Faster than Ray Lewis left his limo.
"You play to win the game (stupid)"- H. Edwards
"I didn't say you needed to BE better than everyone else, but you got to TRY, and that's what character is . . . it's in the trying."- Coach Eric Taylor
laughed pretty hard at some of these
“you throw pretty well… for a girl.”
" I think that assumption (of an additional 10,000 season ticket holders) is preposterous, but arguendo, let’s go with it."
“He’s definitely better than the 55-year old Canadian they were considering in Marc Trestman.”
Damn Canadians….
Bud is ummm, not racist.
What is the word for hating canadians?
FSU Football, making bad teams look bad since 2010.
by onebarrelrum on Dec 14, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
imo in modern usage the two ideas have become conflated
i.e. ‘hatred of’ and ‘fear of’ foreigners has become essentially the same thing
just like ‘philosophy’ has come to mean ‘worldview’ or even ‘approach’ when the word means ‘love of wisdom’
like homophobic, as seen below
being applied to people who dislike gayness or gay people, despite not actually fearing them
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
sheila broflovski
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Meant CFL coach
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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Miami can be elite. That's not an argument. It's just stating the obvious.
“Miami could hire Nick Saban and still not get to the national championship game because it doesn’t have the resources to compete with the elite of the elite in college football.”
A strange comment, given that Miami has as many national title trophies in the case as all the other state schools combined. And that they did it with lesser coaches than Nick Saban and pretty much the same situation they have now with resources.
Good coaches and good players—combined with scholarship limits—are the key ingredients in winning. Stadiums don’t block and tackle. Miami sits in top recruiting country. All Miami needs is to get its fair share of recruits and coach them well to be back in the picture.
“And he can’t take advantage of the local talent if he isn’t allowed to take kids with bare-bones academics and behavioral issues. It is the nature of South Florida recruiting.”
And it is in the nature of ACC recruiting that Miami can’t take all the partial qualifiers that it did during its glory years. One reason Florida State lobbied for Miami to be invited into the ACC was because it wanted the Hurricanes working with the same recruiting restrictions as the Seminoles. At the time the Big East allowed an unlimited number of partial qualifiers. The ACC allowed only four per program—two female athletes and two male athletes.
“Miami hasn’t shown the ability to spend for the support staff, coaching staff, facilities, etc. that it takes to be an elite program. Yes, the Canes will have a new athletic facility (not a stadium), but even Cane football people admit that upon completion, it still won’t be the quality of a Florida or even Florida State.”
Yet the Canes have shown the ability to be an elite program anyway. They won as many national titles as Florida State of Florida combined. They did it with four different coaches and no more resources than they have now (other than the ability to load up on more of the kinds of recruits they can’t take now as an ACC member school).
If Miami became ‘elite’ before, with the rented stadium and no prior tradition of winning at all, they can do it again.
Abiaka Windclan
>>>----------------------->
by Abiaka Windclan on Dec 14, 2010 4:25 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Exactly.
Bud needs to realize that things that happened 20-25 years ago are perfectly relevant to today’s programs.
That’s why I am stunned that big name coaches aren’t jumping at the opportunity to coach Army. They’ve won before and they can do it again.
by MattDNole on Dec 14, 2010 4:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 11 recs
The problem with your argument
is that you maintain that nothing has changed in CFB since Miami was running the world, which isn’t true. The facilities arms race has had a big impact on recruiting and Miami has been unable to play the game. There have also been advances in S&C which require a much larger staff, as well as increases in the amount of video assistants, quality control assistants and increase in both HC and assistant coach salaries. It would be one thing if Miami was lacking in one or two of these areas, but when they are lacking in them all it affects both the quality of coach and player they are able to get. And with FSU’s enlarged support staff it increases the odds of getting everything you can out of the recruits you bring in. This is a boat Miami will miss on due to money.
When Miami first blasted off the greater part of CFB coaches had no idea what type of talent was in SoFla. This allowed Miami to create “the state of Miami” because they basically had free reign and snapped up every local kid who could play. This is no longer the reality of recruiting. With the explosion of summer camps, scouting services and the internet every major program in the Southeast has some sort of presence in SoFla now. And pretty much all of them have better facilities, more money and a more respected head coach than Miami. Where Miami used to be able to walk outside, hand out some offers and build the base of a great class now it will be a dog fight for every kid they want and Miami has 3 legs and 1 eye.
by osceolafan2.0 on Dec 14, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
whooaa skippy
don’t confuse him with facts.. he’s already made up his mind..
by palmcitynole on Dec 14, 2010 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
Randy Shanon showed
that if a Miami coach really tries he can lock up lots of the local Miami talent still though and build up that wall.
Extra staff and stuff is nice, but that does not make it necessity. Some of the teams paying for lots of overhead may not be getting back as much as some teams paying for less still. It helps, but is not the main thing.
If Butch Davis went back to Miami with its current deficit in facilities, staff, etc I would still take them over Florida if Ron Zook went back.
Other than 2008, when did Miami keep the local talent home?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
That is the year I am referring to specifically
He might not have done it consistently, but that shows it can be done. The snowball affect really seems to help coaches so if they land one or two good names then others seem to jump on board.
The driving force behind that
was one loaded HS team which the Canes pulled a lot of kids from. Every year after that the Canes lost out on a lot of top talent
by osceolafan2.0 on Dec 15, 2010 5:41 AM EST up reply actions
Make it two HS teams that were loaded (MNW and BTW)
Shannon showed his gratitude by hiring one the the HC’s
by westcoastnolefan on Dec 15, 2010 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
You would think only doing it once out of 4-5 years would show that it couldn't be done.
At least not with what they currently had in place.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
They went 12-0 less than a decade ago with a Larry Coker.
Abiaka Windclan
>>>----------------------->
by Abiaka Windclan on Dec 14, 2010 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
The point stands. 'Twas exactly Larry Coker.
Abiaka Windclan
>>>----------------------->
by Abiaka Windclan on Dec 14, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
Coker, playing with elite talent against competition not nearly as strong
Golden will not have that luxury. And again, this was 10 years ago.
Elite talent
Recruited by Butch Davis, who would rather be at a basketball school than Miami these days.
'Twas exactly Butch's team
Ron Zook would’ve won the national title with those players.
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
Ron BURGUNDY would've won the national title with those players.
Pretty much any coach in America lacking some combination of “Jody” and “Allen” would sport a ring from that team…
http://Twitter.com/DRusso97
Oderint Dum Metuant
#GotJokes
by DRusso97 on Dec 15, 2010 2:01 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
It would be tough for old Jody to exclude playing all the black players from that team.
Idiot wind, blowing every time you move your teeth.
You're an idiot, babe.
It's a wonder that you still know how to breathe.
by FLpanhandler on Dec 15, 2010 9:33 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
And that's WHY J-A would have been the only coach to *not* win a MNC...
http://Twitter.com/DRusso97
Oderint Dum Metuant
#GotJokes
Further elaboration
Things have changed considerably over the course of ten years.
Of course things are different 10 years later. Today Boise bounces around the Top 10 with all the fabulous resources and money it enjoys in Idaho while Texas watches Boise's bowl game on TV.
What sane person would suggest that the Miami Hurricanes can compete in such a landscape?
Abiaka Windclan
>>>----------------------->
by Abiaka Windclan on Dec 14, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
Boise doesn't play anyone. Let's stick to BCS programs.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Is Miami going to play Boise's sched?
FSU: Ending coaching careers since 2010.
by Jamil Dawson on Dec 14, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
You mean Virginia Tech + cupcake?
Miami will have Virginia Tech + Florida State + carrot cake. And Duke.
Abiaka Windclan
>>>----------------------->
by Abiaka Windclan on Dec 14, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Is that worse than, equal to, or greater than Boise's sched?
FSU: Ending coaching careers since 2010.
by Jamil Dawson on Dec 14, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
Apparently a carrot cake of BCS programs is equivalent to a carrot cake of San Jose State.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
by tricknole on Dec 14, 2010 5:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Good one!!!!!
FEAR THE SPEAR!!!!!!!!!
"Winning when playing poorly is the kiss of the death." - Nick Saban
FSU, VT, UNC, UVA, GT and Clemson
more often than not would serve as the marquee game on BSU’s schedule. Miami could easily have to play them all in one year. Can’t compare schedules.
by osceolafan2.0 on Dec 14, 2010 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
Doesnt UM play Ohio State also?
OSU is not carrot cake
Ohio State again next year
>>>-----------;;;-->"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit 'em in the mouth, and they don't like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that's what we started out with.'' -Florida State safety Nick Moody >>>-----------;;;-->
>>>-----------;;;-->"It means so much to me. Just beating those guys. They were recruiting me so heavy. I remember when I didn’t go there, they said, ‘You will never beat us.' For me to do it, it just shows them that they were wrong, you know? Words can’t really explain the way I feel right now. This is why I came here. I had an opportunity to go to Florida, but I chose to come here because I felt it was my home. I haven't seen this since I was in middle school. Words can't explain the way I feel right now." -Nigel Bradham>>>-----------;;;-->
nvm...
forgot to scroll down
>>>-----------;;;-->"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit 'em in the mouth, and they don't like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that's what we started out with.'' -Florida State safety Nick Moody >>>-----------;;;-->
>>>-----------;;;-->"It means so much to me. Just beating those guys. They were recruiting me so heavy. I remember when I didn’t go there, they said, ‘You will never beat us.' For me to do it, it just shows them that they were wrong, you know? Words can’t really explain the way I feel right now. This is why I came here. I had an opportunity to go to Florida, but I chose to come here because I felt it was my home. I haven't seen this since I was in middle school. Words can't explain the way I feel right now." -Nigel Bradham>>>-----------;;;-->
Does Miami feel like joining the WAC?
If so, then they have a good shot at going undefeated again soon.
Shot a Gator in Jean Shorts just to watch him die.
Argument is based on a one-year sample size.
Try using more than one data point in your comparisons to enhance believability.
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
Granted...
Butch Davis recruited a team full of future NFL talent. Shannon’s successor has what Shannon, not Davis, has set up. But the question is not whether an undefeated title run, or any other specific thing, will happen again. The issue is what can happen. Miami has already shown what it can do. The answer: Plenty.
Abiaka Windclan
>>>----------------------->
by Abiaka Windclan on Dec 14, 2010 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
I do think the "Nick Saban" comment is a little over the top.
Sure things like facilities factor into recruiting, but at the end of the day all that matters is coaches and players. If you have both of those you will be successful. Despite Miami’s lackluster facilities they could still bring in top 10-15 classes due to their location. Miami just has less room for error when they make a coaching hire, in the same way that FSU has less room for error relative to UF.
"They could still bring in top 10-15 classes"
They definitely could, but won’t because of grade/social issues
And also will not because "Da U" brand name has been smeared with dogsh!t.
It still says “UM”…..but high school kids don’t look at it the same.
http://Twitter.com/DRusso97
Oderint Dum Metuant
#GotJokes
yea pretty sure UVA has more claim on the 'u' than miami does now
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Dec 15, 2010 2:04 AM EST up reply actions
Maryland played in a BCS bowl that year.
They must be a top 15 program in college football now too.
by MattDNole on Dec 14, 2010 4:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
But you just admitted that Coker won it all with Butch Davis' players.
And then Larry rode the wave into the sandbar. Is Golden Butch Davis or Larry Coker?
FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st down.
Doesn't matter because Randy Shannon is neither.
And leaves Golden with poor talent in the last class, wasted talent in the previous 2 and no players in the most recent one.
by truenole87 on Dec 14, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But we heard on here that FSU was in the same hole
and FSU played in the ACC title game and is playing in a pretty good bowl game.
So why can’t a new coach at Miami turn things around?
You didn't read that here
Our problem was that a lot of our upperclassmen talent was nonexistent and our most talented players were freshmen and sophomores. Miami’s problem is the opposite in that they have talented Jrs and Snrs but after that they will be in trouble. And it took more than just a new coach for us to turn things around. Entire football operations were overhauled and the amount of money spent on the program rose sharply.
by osceolafan2.0 on Dec 15, 2010 5:51 AM EST up reply actions
did you hear gruden deep throating miami?
it was like he felt bad for crushing their hopes and decided to throw them a bone..
I did.
it was funny. Kinda like, yeah, I have some nice things to say about the U and that extraordinary class that had all the talent, but in the end, take the job and shove it.
FSU Football, making bad teams look bad since 2010.
by onebarrelrum on Dec 14, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
That was weird.
He was quoting stats like he had prepped for a UM game instead of the NFL game. I was expecting Tirico or Jaws to give him some crap about it.
Not in the immediate future. Not even close.
Especially with FSU regaining their footing and UF likely to bounce back rather easily.
I don't expect big things in the 'immediate' future, either.
Miami has some rebuilding to do, no question.
The program’s biggest problems long-term are that Florida is no longer a 3-program state. Miami is likely to find itself fighting much harder for the recruits in its own backyard. Here is where the enticements being discussed, like stadiums and facilities, could help. It will certainly hurt if the school doesn’t even try to keep up.
Still, Miami has assets that can help offset a lot of this. The change in coaches did indicate seriousness on the part of the school about trying to keep up. The BCS is still in operation. The ‘Canes play in an AQ league with UCF, FAU and FIU on the outside looking in. The school still claims prime recruiting location. And memories of 2001, if fading for young players, still exist. The school sits in an NFL town and can avail itself of NFL connections and resources (something that helped it in the past). And it still watches this advantage. Miami’s insistence on running a pro-style offence has everything to do with attracting players who are serious about pursuing NFL careers.
Get good coaches who can recruit their share of players and prepare them well, and there’s still no reason to say that in 4-5 years Miami can’t enjoy the same level of success enjoyed now by, say, TCU or Boise.
Abiaka Windclan
>>>----------------------->
by Abiaka Windclan on Dec 14, 2010 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
So you would agree that the most important thing is to accept the local kids
Even though their grades are not good?
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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I'll spot you this - If UM undoes the local recruiting napalming that RS enacted
I’ll keep UM in the Big 3.
FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st down.
Disagree that RS napalmed UM recruiting
I put that blame squarely on Shalala. She was Chancellor at Wisconsin from 1988 until she left at the beginning of 1993, and their football team struggled mightily while she was there, too. Wisconsin was 14-41 with DS as Chancellor.
Let that sink in. 14-41
Is she the whole reason why they sucked? No, but she definitely played her part well.
Golden’s gonna find out firsthand why Miami’s tanking, and it isn’t because RS couldn’t coach or recruit.
It’s hard to get top-shelf local players in the door when Coral Gables won’t grant them an academic waiver, yet FSU and UF will.
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
Are you saying
Pimp Cup had to pass some high academic standards?
No. Harris was signed in 2008-the last year UM got academic waivers from the AD
Former AD Paul Dee approved those waivers at the tail end of his tenure.
I don’t think Hocutt’s approved any, to my knowledge.
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
And FSU went 12-0 almost 11 years ago to the day.
>------::----::------->Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
by FrankDNole on Dec 14, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
nick saban wants MONEY - LOTS OF IT
and miami does not have it. with coaches, you get what you pay for, and if you cant pay for a good one, you cant win as much as a good one would. times have changed, and theres a massive disparity in coach pay, and miami cant keep up. stick a fork in that dream of miami being elite, its not gonna happen without a sudden jump in massive donations and real fans, and relaxing the standards for admission to the team. face it, there’s a good reason the private schools with really high standards dont do all that well in football – its damn hard to get into duke as it is, and most people arent blessed with elite brains and bodies at the same time to get in and stay eligible.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Bingo
Saban needs tons of cash
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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About salary
This is a NYT article about Coker being fired.
For those who don’t want to read it:
“There have been some indications that Miami may attempt to raise the salary it offers to an incoming coach. Coaches at many of the country’s top programs now make well above $2 million in salary and incentives.
Saban, Brown, make close to $6mil now. Top salaries have tripled in the past 4 years. The landscape has changed.
I would really only say doubled.
Only, I think, 15ish guys make more than $2.5M/year, per the USAToday article posted a few days ago. Almost all of them below $4M/year.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Miami thinks it is in that group that can pay that and play fot it all.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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Once the new ESPN deal kicks in, I don't see why Miami couldn't be in that coaching list.
But that wouldn’t leave much left over for other areas they are behind in. That’s a big reason why I don’t understand why our indoor facility is being postponed.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
because the espn money goes to the school, not
straight to the athletic director…
by palmcitynole on Dec 14, 2010 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
Fortunately Barron believes athletics is a great way into the pockets of potential/future financial supporters.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
You're right, 14 make more than $2.5mil
Those 14 are Brown, Stoops, Tressel, Grobe, Pinkel, Nutt, Rodriguez, Miles, Richt, Petrino, Saban, and Meyer (I’m aware he’s not HC, but I don’t know how much Muschamp’s contract is). Since 2000, that group has won 8 of 10 MNC. Miami wants to think they can hire from that group, rather than from the CFL.
8 of 10 from there. Impressive fact.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
The others being Fulmer and Carroll?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Ah, Fulmer was a terrible guess.
Both Chizik and Kelly are in the $2.5M range right?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Very close
Kelly $2.4mil, Chizik $2,103,500
I also missed Kirk Ferentz, who makes $3,781,000 at Iowa.
25 coaches make $2mil+
I'm going to assume that's base pay.
I feel like Chizik can make up to almost $1M in bonuses. Both will make more than $2.5M I’m guessing.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Chizik can make up to $1.5mil in bonuses, Kelly $885,000
Kelly’s contract isn’t available, but from the language in Chizik’s contract:
-up to $150,000 for Academic stuff (APR, Jimbo has a similar clause)
-either $150,000 (13) or $200,000 (14) for wins
-$100,000 for playing in the SEC Championship
-$200,000 for winning SEC Championship
-$50,000 for playing in a BCS game
-$100,000 for being in the top 5 after BCS Championship (assuredly Auburn will be)
-$100,000 for being Home Depot COY
-$500,000 if he wins MNC
PLUS any discretionary bonus that Auburn decides to give him.
So he’ll receive either a $1.2mil or a $1.15mil bonus.
Still don't understand why Chizik got that job, with that salary.
As much as anything else, it makes you wonder what shenanigans are going on there.
[Somewhere in the distance, a desperate voice cries, “faaaahvv and nahnteeeennnn”]
Yea, I thought it was an AWFUL hire at the time. Hiring Malzahn made it a pretty solid hire however...
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Normally I dismiss accusations (regarding ethical behavior). I dont think "every program cheats", so forth and so on...
But I think the Chizik hire makes perfect sense. When Bama hired Saban, Auburn knew what the future held. They made a decision to keep up, no matter the cost.
The dirty laundry at Auburn is larger than your average washing machine can hold. Rumors of the football program being tied to boosters who are rumored to be investigated for racketeering, so forth and so on don’t inspire thoughts of squeaky cleanliness.
Auburn needed a guy whose loyalty to the program was unquestioned. A guy who knew the puppeteers, and more importantly, a guy THEY felt comfortable with. In my opinion, there aren’t many people in CFB that fit these criteria.
Chizik, in light of what could be going down at Auburn, makes PERFECT sense. Not only does he fit the “Auburn Diehard” mold that passes the brotherhood test, but is really a fine football coach to boot.
And if Auburn gets caught? BFD. Chizik gets canned and nobody really cares.
If not, and Auburn succeeds, Jay Jacobs comes out looking like a GD genius.
Chizik, in my opinion, was the perfect hire. A lap dog, wolling to sell his soul for Auburn football.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
by CornNole on Dec 14, 2010 10:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
How is Chizik the diehard Auburn guy?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
[sigh]
Are you serious?
Remember that 2004 Auburn team? Who do you think coached that defense?
He loves Auburn and Auburn sure as hell loved him.
Seriously…not rocket science. Widely known throughout the southeast.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
by CornNole on Dec 15, 2010 12:39 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It's been speculated that
one of the main reasons Chizik was hired was because Auburn knew he had no problem cheating. Evidentally they needed to keep up with Saban at all cost, indeed
by westcoastnolefan on Dec 15, 2010 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
Are you inferring he is
a puppet? I was thinking that
1/3 puppet
1/3 football coach
1/3 public relations specialist.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
by CornNole on Dec 15, 2010 10:45 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
The most depressing line in that article for Canez fanz...
He thought he might have saved his job with a Thanksgiving night upset of Boston College, 17-14.
Writing was on the wall back then.
And it is in the nature of ACC recruiting that Miami can’t take all the partial qualifiers that it did during its glory years. One reason Florida State lobbied for Miami to be invited into the ACC was because it wanted the Hurricanes working with the same recruiting restrictions as the Seminoles. At the time the Big East allowed an unlimited number of partial qualifiers. The ACC allowed only four per program—two female athletes and two male athletes.
They really do not seem to be operating under the same standard now.
A strange comment, given that Miami has as many national title trophies in the case as all the other state schools combined. And that they did it with lesser coaches than Nick Saban and pretty much the same situation they have now with resources.
Good coaches and good players—combined with scholarship limits—are the key ingredients in winning. Stadiums don’t block and tackle. Miami sits in top recruiting country. All Miami needs is to get its fair share of recruits and coach them well to be back in the picture.
Things have changed, it’s not the same, need to get up out the game. Cause Canes can get paid in a different way, no more spittin’ dope rimes with ken dorse’
But seriously, the game has changed. Big money programs win titles now.
Yet the Canes have shown the ability to be an elite program anyway. They won as many national titles as Florida State of Florida combined. They did it with four different coaches and no more resources than they have now (other than the ability to load up on more of the kinds of recruits they can’t take now as an ACC member school).
If Miami became ‘elite’ before, with the rented stadium and no prior tradition of winning at all, they can do it again.
CFB is a money sport now. Don’t see it happening.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Dec 14, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I wish I could rec that twice for the Warren G reference!
Love that album I still listen to it!
I said, ‘Snoop, things done change, it’s not the same
We need to get about the game
Cuz we can get paid in a different way
Wit you kickin’ dope rhymes and I DJ’
by NationWideNole on Dec 15, 2010 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
Really surprised others didn't catch it
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Dec 15, 2010 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
I've just about had it with these pie in the sky Pollyanna articles on this site.
Some of you are absolutely ridiculous with your “we’re so great, they’re so terrible” bull crap.
I generally love reading this site but the homerism is a little too much.
by MattDNole on Dec 14, 2010 4:26 PM EST via mobile reply actions
You should check out warchant
Youll get a much more realistic view of FSU football over and none of these metrics and stats
by DownByTheRiverWalkinOnWater on Dec 14, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
I absolutely hate stats.
What good have they ever done?
by MattDNole on Dec 14, 2010 5:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Perhaps this article will help you to understand the value of statistics in football
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2010/5/21/1481649/introduction-to-statistics
Greatness is consistency and performance over a long period of time - CJF
More than likely
He probably helped write that article.
Just FYI, he’s a regular contributor (mostly sarcastic contributor, that is)
ironically, he DID write it
Introduction to Statistics: Football Edition by MattDNole on May 21, 2010 9:49 AM EDT in FSU Football
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Applause
FSU: Ending coaching careers since 2010.
by Jamil Dawson on Dec 14, 2010 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
Someone is especially feisty tonight...
Did you get laid recently? Like, by a woman?
Awfully chipper this evening…strange things afoot in MattyDland.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
by CornNole on Dec 14, 2010 10:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, but I have seen stats used two ways
So you have to take everything into account. People these days can use numbers in some form or another to make any argument. Politicians do it all the time.
There's a BIG difference between using numbers and understanding them.
"You should always swing as hard as you can...Just in case you hit the ball." - Dale Murphy
by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Dec 15, 2010 9:14 AM EST up reply actions
They were giving samples of
arguendo out at Costco last weekend. Tastes great spread on a cracker. Soft, creamy cheese.
by dale gribble on Dec 14, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
best word I've seen in any football post
…and it’s even spelled correctly. Damn, Bud is good.
He’s definitely better than the 55-year old Canadian they were considering
I notice you express a lot of negative prejudice on this site about age.
Abiaka Windclan
>>>----------------------->
by Abiaka Windclan on Dec 14, 2010 4:35 PM EST reply actions
I wouldn't have a problem with them
if I didn’t keep getting their quarters in my change. Useless 55-year old foreign change.
by dale gribble on Dec 14, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
unless you are already dead.
Like Coker. Shouldn’t have fired him. Hard to find a solid walking dead coach these days.
FSU Football, making bad teams look bad since 2010.
by onebarrelrum on Dec 14, 2010 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
i think i'll go for a walk..
i feel happy………..
did you hear that?
he says he’s not dead. i cant take him like this…
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
You're not fooling anyone you know...
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
Ann Bowden disagrees.
So does 2012 Penn State/
http://Twitter.com/DRusso97
Oderint Dum Metuant
#GotJokes
Especially in the college game
A game where you are recruiting HS kids
i guess its true what they say:
senior citizens, though slow, and dangerous behind the wheel, CAN serve a purpose…
I don’t want to start my program with a guy who is 55 and who doesn’t have connections to younger coaches.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Dec 15, 2010 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
Ouch...
This is a pretty scathing report on Miami’s prospects. I see the logic behind it, but it may be just a little premature to start penciling the Canes in for 8 win seasons 4 years from now. As always though, a good read…
I'd argue that whatever the case
Golden’s year in 2011 will be less difficult than 2012. His second year will be littered with poor talent from 2010 and basically . . . nobody in the 2011 class. In 2013, his most experienced players will be the less than 10 prospects they brought in 2011 and the random 2 stars from Idaho Randy Shannon signed in 2010. Even IF he recruits out of his mind for the 2012/2013 class, it will mean his most talented athletes are true freshmen and sophomores lacking in college experience and less physically mature than the players other mature teams field. To be honest, Miami is at the very least 3 years away from what I can see.
I don't disagree with the write up
or the idea that Golden has a tough road ahead, but I think that Miami is still a name that many of the athletes in this state know well, and respect. Do I expect Miami to be regularly in the top 10 5 years from now? Probably not, but a few years ago things were pretty bleak in Tally, and have turned around. During Zooks last year, we were forced to consider that Florida may never again be elite…and look what happened there. I’ve long believed in the cyclical nature of CFB, which is why I expected FSU to come back, and it’s also why I’m not willing to write Miami off as a middling ACC team from here to whenever…
You can't compare UF and UM in modern day war of
funding differences / quality in facilities. If their product is based on historical name recognition alone, the best they can hope for is the mid 2000s FSU teams.
FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st down.
I recognize what you're saying
but you have to consider resources of the programs you’re talking about
In terms of resources:
UF>FSU>>Miami
Programs don't just suddenly get good through magic.
You have to have resources to make the turn around.
And I’m completely over the ‘cyclical’ argument. It’s only cyclical if those in charge let it be cyclical.
by MattDNole on Dec 14, 2010 5:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Exactly. Complacency and hiring/refusing to fire friends makes it cyclical
Which is the road even the great Urban Meyer was headed down.
Re: My second statement
If the UFs, Alabamas, and Texas’s of the world aggressively used all of their advantages, very few other teams would ever be on top for long.
by MattDNole on Dec 14, 2010 5:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You can suddenly go from 8-5 to the MNCG by spending $200k on a QB
by BayNole9 on Dec 14, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
This should go past green and right to toxic sludge
brilliant
FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st down.
SOYLENT GREEN IS THIS REC'D POST!!!
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
o rly?
When was the last time one of those schools was legitimately one of the 50 worst teams in college football?
When was Toledo or Akron or San Jose State or FAU one of the 50 best?
by MattDNole on Dec 14, 2010 5:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
DOH!
I was only addressing the cyclical comment.
Greatness is consistency and performance over a long period of time - CJF
Right.
And I’m saying it isn’t “cyclical” because there isn’t that kind of turnover.
There are haves and there are have nots. The haves own exclusive rights to the front of the line. The elite possess the ability to completely dominate the line.
by MattDNole on Dec 14, 2010 6:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Agreed
Yet, elite teams still manage to eff it up.
Greatness is consistency and performance over a long period of time - CJF
And when one does, another capitalizes.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
You can do what boise did
Rock bottom admission standards and a joke schedule.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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Good point, because I don't think they win 8 next year.
a little premature to start penciling the Canes in for 8 win seasons 4 years from now
Loss-shares
At FSU – .65
At UMD – .55
At USF – .55
At VT – .70
At UNC – .45
At MU – .1
OSU – .65
GT – .35
UVA – .25
Duke – .1
BC – .40
Total – 4.75
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Admittedly, I read the op as saying "4 years in a row", not "4 years from now". Oh well.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Wow
I feel honored that my little comment got so much action…You FSU boys know how to…forget it. Personally I don’t think that financial constraints of Miami are as important as the admission standards. I realize that having a private jet to recruit with, and top notch facilities really helps, but if the majority of your talent is within a 100 miles of campus how much of a recruiting budget do you really need (insert Cam Newton joke here)? It just seems like when one of the big 3 gets down for a few years, someone comes along and sells all of the talent on bringing them back to prominence….you guys should be incredibly familiar with this since it’s happening at FSU right now. I just think that if, and it’s a big if, Miami lightens up with the admission restrictions they can once again compete with Florida and FSU….budgets be damned.
Don't see how you can say the financial constraints aren't as important
It clearly affected the coaching search when a CFL Head Coach is a serious candidate. Finances will also affect the assistants he can get, which are a huge part of recruiting and player development. Money also affects the support staff, which is one of the reasons you can see such a physical different between a team like Bama and say Wake. Players with the exact same measurables will look comply different from each other. Even if the admission restrictions are eased you still have to find a way for the players on campus to get the same level of training as a player at an elite program withotu spending elite money
by osceolafan2.0 on Dec 14, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
I really like your point about not needing to spend all that money on recruiting because it is all in your backyard.
I don’t see their situation as being as bleak as most people on here seem to think it is. I don’t see why they couldn’t get a young up and commer to string 2-3 good classes in their backyard together and be back to competeing with the big boys. I guess it isn’t a recipe for long term success but I don’t see someone with 5 championships and a load of talent within 100 miles being completely out of it. Unless of course standards to get in remain high, that is their biggest handicap.
by Blake Davis on Dec 14, 2010 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
You're forgetting to factor in how those kids VIEW UM.
All these S.Fla kids just finished watching Miami go throught their FOURTH YEAR of rebuilding…..and yet they made no progress. Now they are changing the coaching staff (again), and the process will begin again.
Add to that the fact that UF has scored 2 MNC’s in that same time frame, and FSU demonstrated EMPHATICALLY that they are top-dogs in the state now…..and how do you think those players will be convinced to come to Coral Gables Miami Miami Gardens to play in front of 30,000 people……when they could go to FSU or UF instead?? I admit Miami has some quality trannies*, but Tallahassee has hot girls with vaginas.
Oh…and don’t forget that your 2012 season will most likely suck elephant balls because of the talent on hand from the 2010/2011 recruiting classes.
- - Trademarked 2010 by D.Russo comedy
http://Twitter.com/DRusso97
Oderint Dum Metuant
#GotJokes
Don't know much about Gainesville chicks.
Only 1 girl ever got me to go see her in Gainesville…….and she had to give me SOOOOOOOOOOooooooooo MUCH head to make that happen.
http://Twitter.com/DRusso97
Oderint Dum Metuant
#GotJokes
the u...
The situation at Miami is so bad that even Ray Lewis discouraged the Joe family about their son attending there when they called him on a visit down there…
by KrazyNole7 on Dec 14, 2010 4:43 PM EST via mobile reply actions
There a link of this?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
No link. I work with Erin’s mom and she was talking about his trip to um. Said her husband called Ray while they were down there and he had nothing positive to say. That’s when FSU and GT jumped ahead in Joe’s recruiting. We would lead if we wanted him bad enough but he seems GT bound as of now…
by KrazyNole7 on Dec 14, 2010 6:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Cool. Thanks.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Doesn't Ray Lewis have an uber-recruit relative (brother? nephew?) coming up?
Think I’ve seen chatter about him on UM boards, and they seem to think he’s 100% cane. Would this change if the above account is true?
Yea it might actually be his son
Ray Lewis III. Hopefully Ray Lewis Jr won’t have a problem with the kid going to a rival. I think I read that he doesn’t see the kid that often. But he talks to him a lot on the phone I think.
by osceolafan2.0 on Dec 14, 2010 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
it's his kid.
I live in Lake Mary and Ray Lewis’ kid is a stud at Lake Mary prep. That being said Lake Mary prep is a tiny school, that plays other tiny schools. Little Ray Ray is certainly not going toe to toe with the beasts of central Florida, but rather with the more privileged.
Damn dude.....I'm sorry.
I live in Lake Mary
http://Twitter.com/DRusso97
Oderint Dum Metuant
#GotJokes
Lake Mary's not that bad...
granted it’s not that great either, but there is a rather decent sized population of attractive rich girls, divorcees, and the like who are trying really hard to upset another man, much to your advantage…..That being said, personally I’m not a huge fan of Florida as a whole. It’s just not the most aesthetically pleasing state to my eyes, the women not included of course.
Yeah, but Stewart Mandel pointed out one very important thing
Miami did not have great resources back when it won five national titles.
Army is an incredible job.
Why aren’t more coaches beating down their door?
by MattDNole on Dec 14, 2010 4:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Because Army hasn't won a national title since 1945.
Back to you.
Abiaka Windclan
>>>----------------------->
by Abiaka Windclan on Dec 14, 2010 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
Last 9 have been won by elite-dollar programs
When will the streak end?
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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Huge money
2.25 billion (ESPN) and 825 million (CBS) 15 year contracts that will pay the SEC schools 17 million a year each.
FSU Football, making bad teams look bad since 2010.
by onebarrelrum on Dec 14, 2010 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
The new deal allows ACC team to survive, not necessarily to compete.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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But they were elite before.
By your definition, they CAN be elite again right?
by MattDNole on Dec 14, 2010 6:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think it's a self-perpetuating thing.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Swag gets passed down from father-to-son....like a family heirloom.
…Or HIV.
http://Twitter.com/DRusso97
Oderint Dum Metuant
#GotJokes
They also were taking kids that
A) no one knew about
2) programs wouldn’t take a chance one
D)see A and 2.
FSU Football, making bad teams look bad since 2010.
by onebarrelrum on Dec 14, 2010 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
damn it
*wouldn’t take a chance on.
College football has evolved. Facilities mean a lot more than they did in the 80s.
FSU Football, making bad teams look bad since 2010.
by onebarrelrum on Dec 14, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
I mean
Nearly Every elite program in the nation today has better facilities and resources than they had 10 years ago.
From my understanding
The attitude back then was ‘we don’t need great facilities, s&c, etc. to beat you, we’re just that much better’
Not sure many recruits are buying into that anymore.
by BenDNole on Dec 14, 2010 5:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The type of players Miami was getting back then don't exist anymore.
Totally different mindset between the players of those old teams and current recruits.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
I rarely comment but...
I had to throw this in from eye of the hurricane…“The more I see al goldens name across my ticker, the better it looks. Miami made a smart hire, better than florida”
USF may take over for #3 of the big 3…
by FSUWest on Dec 14, 2010 4:51 PM EST via mobile reply actions
If UCF gets a Big East invite soon, watch out.
Miami is having to fight FIU for mention in the media since they’ve made a bowl and won their conference for the first time after only playing D-IA for 8 years.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
The Miami Herald has a huge boner for FIU
I was in SoFla over Thanksgiving weekend and the Herald’s front page Sports section story each day was about FIU. UM/USF got a small blurb. FSU/UM was on page 6.
Mario Cristobal is getting interviewed quite a bit on several sports radio stations as well.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Don't tell Miami, but it's the stadium...
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
I don't. It was awful enough listening to all the obnoxious USF smack talk around town last year.
Yeah, I’m sure it was your amazing team and not those 6 turnovers that did us in.
Breaking news:
WVU will replace Bill Stewart with offensive coordinator Dana Holgresen( not sure if I got the spelling right) starting in the 2012 season. Holgresen will the offensive coordinator at WVU until then. So take him off the board to be the offensive coordinator at either Florida or Texas. Good!!!
It's about time WVU replaced Stewart.
He seems like a super nice guy, but he is a terrible football coach.
I think Muschamp is holding out for N. Alabama's OC
by BayNole9 on Dec 14, 2010 5:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Joke error...quip malfunction...truth fail
Jeff Bowden is not even listed at thr OC at N. AL. Where your own brother won’t put you incharge of any offense above a high school level.
Idiot wind, blowing every time you move your teeth.
You're an idiot, babe.
It's a wonder that you still know how to breathe.
by FLpanhandler on Dec 15, 2010 11:03 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
*as their
Idiot wind, blowing every time you move your teeth.
You're an idiot, babe.
It's a wonder that you still know how to breathe.
by FLpanhandler on Dec 15, 2010 11:04 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Where are you seeing that?
I’m seeing Maryland’s oc and hciw just took the Vanderbilt job. Wonder if CornNole likes that.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
It's weird because I didn't see it on ESPN.com when I just looked (may have just missed it).
But it’s online here: http://www.wvgazette.com/latest/201012140659
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
No...I.dont.
Vandy just threw a pick six with this hire. Especially after the Malzahn news.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
by CornNole on Dec 14, 2010 11:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Well, someone's gotta be "that" team in the BRUTAL SEC...
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
I read it wasn't yet a done deal, and Franklin is at least being considered also for Pitt.
Ralphie Boy Fridge will be breathing a little easier if Franklin bolts and has stated he will be buying donuts for everyone.
Ummm, Donuts.
>------::----::------->Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
Does Friedgen resign now if Franklin's gone or does he stay on?
And was Franklin good?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
I don't think
a pick six, but definitely a turnover. Malzahn would have brought instant recognition to the program. Franklin, from what I can gather is a good recruiter and a so so OC. Many of the Vanderbilt faithful (Both of them I guess) would have liked Mike Leach then Greg Roman, OC from Stanford before Franklin. In Leach, you get the media attention and that can’t be a bad thing. In Roman, you get a leader of a top 5 program and a top 20 offenses. And in Franklin you get ?
He and Miami are getting hit hard on Rome is Burning right now...
Tearing down his record at Temple…
Rome loves the U...
A “colorful” Miami team is good for business. Guy hated Shannon.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
by CornNole on Dec 14, 2010 11:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
the single biggest issue re: the potential for this job
is the administrations willingness to allow him to take questionable character/grades guys who will not graduate…
those were the guys who carried miami in the past, and frankly the only ones who will go to the u despite their disadvantages in resources…
but if the admin insists on a squeaky clean program then theyre going to wind up w/ a uva type team b/f long…
No doubt
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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Didnt UVA wax Miami this year?
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
by CornNole on Dec 14, 2010 11:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Bud...
kiss my ass for being dead on…lol. dang i hope all of that dont come to pass.
by genron187 on Dec 14, 2010 5:15 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
How you been?
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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BUD- YOU NEED TO DO ACCURATE RESEARCH BEFORE POSTING
There are so many errors of fact & mis-statements in your article that I almost didn’t bother responding…However, Coach Golden & The Canes deserve better….someone is feeling awfully full of himself with a winning streak of one against the CANES!! See you in Tally next fall! GO CANES! As to recruiting, thanks for your concern for Mr. Golden’s abilities…You might want to read how Tom Lemming, The main recruiting analyst for ESPN ranks MR. GOLDEN in the TOP 5 IN DIV. I FOOTBALL!!
Tom Lemming is not the ESPN guy
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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immediate fail
the only “fact” in that statement is wrong in less than 5 minutes. ok, maybe it was a “mis-statement”.
oh, and you know how i know you’re a miami fan?
YOU TYPED IN ALL CAPS TO DRAW ATTENTION TO YOUR POINTS, AS IF YOU FELT THE NEED TO YELL THEM AT US TO REALLY SELL THEM.
and thank you for taking time out of your busy, important day, despite nearly not bothering to respond. we truly appreciate being graced with your wisdom and insight.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
by nole07 on Dec 14, 2010 5:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Can't wait for Golden
to waste his time recruiting all the blue-chippers only to find out they won’t be allowed in.
Long live Shalalala
Guy already said he's going to recruit the northeast hard. Wait...what? He's in Miami and wants to recruit the northeast?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Yea, but that's for smart, wealthy students, not less smart, less wealthy athletes.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
A rebuttal with only one fact that was incorrect.
It’s great to be a Cane huh?
FSU: Ending coaching careers since 2010.
by Jamil Dawson on Dec 14, 2010 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
0% fact rate
Impressive.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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>------::----::------->Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
by FrankDNole on Dec 14, 2010 7:29 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Looks like a Negro to me
But my cell phone color resolution may be off.
Idiot wind, blowing every time you move your teeth.
You're an idiot, babe.
It's a wonder that you still know how to breathe.
by FLpanhandler on Dec 15, 2010 11:07 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Who was that Heather Dinrich?
We are "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented." says Fisher.
The process is real, make no mistake, it gets stronger and stronger day by day, it is unstoppable! "Get used to it, get used to winning"....Jimbo Fisher
by DocHoliday2 on Dec 14, 2010 7:50 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Up past our bedtime again I see…
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
by CornNole on Dec 14, 2010 11:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Miami area has the kids to come back
However, Shannon burnt a lot of bridges with the local high school coaches. You must have the High School Coaches on your side to rebuild. These kids visit other schools and see the facilities and compare to Miami and then come back and tell the other kids. Also, apparently the ex-players got cut out someway-that was a big mistake. Shalala was a mistake and if the administration is against you-then you have problems.
Shalala was a mistake and if the administration is against you-then you have problems.
I agree with this. That Barry Jackson article in the Herald a little while ago did not sit well with the adm I don’t think. Let’s see if anything changes for us (sigh)
Was the Shalala admin a mistake?
or do they have different goals than the idiot “fans” who have no real connection to the school?
It seems to me that she wants to focus on making Miami a quality school. IMO.
The Funk Phenomenon.
anybody that correlates football performance with academic prestige is an "idiot"...
school presidents are smart enough to know that big-time football programs bring LOADS of cash to schools and increase national and even international visibility…
by palmcitynole on Dec 14, 2010 8:35 PM EST up reply actions
international?
you think theyre rockin’ bama gear in britain?
Not exactly
but when I was in Barcelona earlier this year I definitely ran into some locals who asked about Teblow when I mentioned I was from Florida. I couldn’t believe even over seas I had to hear that clowns name.
"When in doubt - SPEAR IT"
Coach Coley
wow - i am surprised by that
ive found europeans are not merely indifferent, but openly ridicule american football
at least the majority of brits i met do –
they call it a nancy form of rugby, only the players wear armor and take a break every 8 seconds..
well I think you can have both. I don’t think athletics needs to be sacrificed. But if you look at football and baseball since she got there, both have seriously gone downhill. But that Barry Jackson article brought to light what alot of people already thought – stay out of trouble, win 8 or so games and that’s ok. Just my opinion, I don’t really know. And by the way, you can be a fan without ever having attended a school, like me. I am from Miami. And far from an idiot – LOL
Always comes down to recruiting
As many have said above, I’d give Miami a pass on coaching/facilities if they were able to lock down South Florida recruiting. Until that happens again, Bud’s projections are spot-on
Recruiting is a big part of it
as is player development and coaching. Recruiting is only half the battle (see University of Flarda 2010).
#1 result
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Dec 14, 2010 6:01 PM EST reply actions 8 recs
haha, do you own part of google?
or just getting that many hits? Either way, win win (I would rather own part of google).
FSU Football, making bad teams look bad since 2010.
by onebarrelrum on Dec 14, 2010 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
"Clear", "Visa" and "Gameday Depot" thank you
BTW – do you see any of the money from those ads? "twould be a shame if you didn’t…
Al Golden can't even get a 3rd generation Cane on board
From former player and radio host Dan Sileo :
Spoke to anthony chickillio two secounds ago….coach golden promised to call him and he didn’t..just saying about 4 hours ago via Twitter for iPhone
http://twitter.com/DSHurricane93
"I think Florida State is gonna win."
"Florida State is going to come out strong because its senior day. Their defense has been playing very good and I think they're going to stop Florida's offense." 2012 DE Dante Flower Jr.
OFF TOPIC BUT
If anyone on this post is from panama city area, ther was a shooting at the school board meeting today at 2.30 cen. It’s all over the news,gunman was killed.
Some tragedies have a happy ending....
gunman was killed.
http://Twitter.com/DRusso97
Oderint Dum Metuant
#GotJokes
Barely a happy ending.
They thought he was shooting blanks (ba-dum-bum) at first, but turns out the pistol he had was fully loaded with real ammo. Dude pulled off a shot at 6 feet and missed, put the gun down, accidentally fired again into the floor, raised the gun, shot twice more at point blank range missing both, then got shot by the security officer. The video I’ve seen freezes there, but several more shots are fired, so I’m assuming he shot back a couple times at the security officer before shooting himself in the head.
If this asshole had been to a range ONE TIME, there would have been dead school board members. People like this are why I DO go to the range, and I carry legally.
Good heavens, was the shooter
Lloyd Christmas?
by Shooter McFrattin on Dec 15, 2010 7:34 AM EST up reply actions
C'mon man, you can't confuse Dumb & Dumber stuff around here.
Harry was the terrible shot.
"You should always swing as hard as you can...Just in case you hit the ball." - Dale Murphy
by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Dec 15, 2010 9:18 AM EST up reply actions
Divine intervention perhaps?
Not to get religiousy or anything, but God may have put his foot down on that one.
Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole
yeah, guessing not
"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government." — Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
"MacGyver is the Jesus Christ of Science" — me
I forgot to include a witty Pulp Fiction referrence.
Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole
So what you're saying is that God came down from Heaven and stopped the bullets?
Me, I think that was a freak occurrence.
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
2 undercover NY cops shot it out in the subway at basically point-blank range before.
…..Nobody was hit.
http://Twitter.com/DRusso97
Oderint Dum Metuant
#GotJokes
i guess 12 kids and a teacher in Columbine, CO in 1999 wasn't worth his time.
or really a “teaching moment” for us all I suppose.
"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government." — Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
"MacGyver is the Jesus Christ of Science" — me
"You guys in AZ are life-savers," Scott Kernan, California's undersecretary for Corrections and Rehabilitation after receiving 12 grams of the chemical sodium thiopental to be used to execute a death-row inmate from Arizona.
Maybe "God" is a Deist...
It would be nice to have something in common with the lady.
http://Twitter.com/DRusso97
Oderint Dum Metuant
#GotJokes
All programs have some delusional fans
But Miami’s take the cake. I’d agree a huge problem for them is that college football has profoundly changed from 10 years ago and its unrecognizable from 1980’s when Miami rose up. You must have the money now for the facilities and coaches. As far as Miami someday having a UVA type program, they already do.
When you bring up any of the multitude of problems facing the Miami program, Miami fans tend to answer “Doesn’t matter, were the U”. Sorry but pie in the sky doesn’t cut it.
That accompanied photo of Golden
Is the deer in the headlights look. He maybe even did it better than the master of the confused deer in the headlights look on the sidelines that idiot Dave Wannstedt.
post that pic again after FSU rolls Miami again next year. He looks like a puppy dog about to get eaten by a raptor or something.
Looks more like an out-of-work hairdresser to me.
"You should always swing as hard as you can...Just in case you hit the ball." - Dale Murphy
by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Dec 14, 2010 8:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ask a Notre Dame fan if the Landscape is constantly changing. Ten years ago FSU was a powerhouse.
Just for fun here are some teams in the AP top 20 from the late 1930s to early 1940s…
1936
6. Santa Clara
10. Pennsylvania
11. Duke
12. Yale
13. Dartmouth
14. Duquesne
15. Fordham
1937
3. Fordham
6. Villanova
7. Dartmouth
9 Santa Clara
1938
1. Texas Christian
2. Tennessee
3. Duke
6. Carnegie Tech
9. Holy Cross
1939
4. Cornell
5. Tulane
8. Duke
10. Duquesne
14. Santa Clara
1940
11. Santa Clara
12. Fordham
13. Georgetown
14. Pennsylvania
15. Cornell
16. SMU
17. Hardin-Simmons
18. Duke
19. Lafayette
1941
2. Duke
6. Fordham
8. Duquesne
10. Navy
1943
1. Notre Dame
2. Iowa Pre-Flight
4. Navy
6. Great Lakes
7. Duke
8. Del Monte P-F
10. March Field
Why the hell do you keep bolding Penn?
We are back to back conference champions. How many schools can say that? Miami hasn’t won a single current conference title. Notre Dame can’t even win the 3 or 4 team legion of independents. Hardin-Simmons is rumored to still exist.
Idiot wind, blowing every time you move your teeth.
You're an idiot, babe.
It's a wonder that you still know how to breathe.
by FLpanhandler on Dec 15, 2010 11:16 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Some of those 1943 teams...
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
I wonder if UVA could pass them with London as headcoach.
If it’s all about money I could see UVA surpassing them. Since they are a public school they have a larger alumni base and an extremely wealthy one at that. If London can keep some top 25 recruiting classes (like he has now) they could become quite respectable while Miami goes in the other direction.
by Blake Davis on Dec 14, 2010 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
id be surprised if the uva alumni were really interested in football enough to pony up the cash to make them relevant
i could be wrong, but im thinking the lacrosse team is just about as significant as the football team to many of them…
They care
the academic requirements are just too high to be competitive, and they make very few exceptions.
Bud: Fews Qs and Comments from a realistic Canes fan
Although I find this article extremely disheartening, I must say you raise some very good points. I have always enjoyed getting the “enemy’s” perspective on this site, and your “state of the Program” article posted over the summer was very well done. You run a great site here and your research is always accurate and appreciated. That being said, I have a few questions and comments.
I have been going to the U for 6 years now (Bachelors + Law) and have been through the worst of times as a Canes fan. No doubt, we struggle to show up to games. However, make no mistake, there ARE LOTS of Miami fans down here. The extensive coverage they receive from the local media must be somewhat indicative of that, as they would not receive it without the requisite demand. Three major newspapers cover us regularly (Herald, Sun Sentinel, Pal Beach Post). There is a radio station down here (560 WQAM) that talks Canes 24/7 w/plenty of people calling in. Further, if you go to any sports bar in the city you will find Canes fans watching games on gameday, and find Canes jerseys/logos, etc. posted up. I walked into a gas station in Kendall yesterday (20 miles from campus) and some Cubans were talking about the new coach. I say this because I feel as though many in the media take our attendance as a sign of our overall fanbase, when I personally believe nothing could be further from the truth. The real problem is the South Florida fanbase. Look at Heat games — they still aren’t selling out with Wade/Lebron/Bosh. The attendance at the Dolphins/Browns game a few weeks ago was pathetic. (Don’t get me started on the Marlins.) These are bandwagon fans yes, but there is so much to do in Miami that attending games just isn’t at the top of everyone’s priority list down here. My real point is that if you equate a “hardcore fanbase” w/game attendance then your theory of MIA having only 30K “diehard” fans has some merit. However, if you look a little deeper (T.V. ratings, merchandise sales, etc.) I think we have more fan support than you give us credit for. Consequently, the “diehard” fanbase may not be indicative of the overall support this team receives.
Onto recruiting. Things have been ugly the past few years, and yes, I am very jealous of you guys and UF. What is most disturbing to me is that you have both successfully penetrated South Florida and are convincing kids to come up North. I almost puked when a FSU friend of mine told me there was an article on Warchant.com about FSU building a “pipeline” to St. Thomas Aquinas That being said, the 2011 class wasn’t quite as bad as you make it out to be. We finished 2010 at #16 per rivals. Say what you will about our “scrubs,” but I guarantee you many of those guys will be able to compete at a high level in the ACC. Seantrel Henderson is a first team freshman All-American. Brandon Linder is a future stud on the line as well. Last I checked Storm Johnson (#7 RB) is a pretty damn good tailback too. He just didn’t see the field much this year b/c of how loaded we are at RB. Tyrone Cornelius was a special teams beast and will contribute on defense next year. Even some of the lower rated guys like Kelvin Cain and Asante Cleveland had their moments this year. And of course, any Miami fan will tell you that stars aren’t everything (see Ed Reed).
Now I want to be clear — you guys are kicking our ass in recruiting right now. I get that. But to project doom and gloom for the Canes once this class becomes upperclassmen is a bit farfetched. I actually think we have a shot to finish w/some decent kids this year as well. 4* Phillip Dorsett is a stud WR and appears solid to the Canes. I also am hopeful that 4* DE Anthony Chickillo sticks despite the coaching change — remember his dad and granddad are both former Canes. A few of our former commits are visiting this weekend, and at least in 4* CB Albert Louis Jean’s case, looking for n excuse to recommit to the program. Finally, for the 2012 recruiting class, we already have four commits, and three are on the ESPN150 watch list. Yes, you guys have four who are all on there, but the fact that we are that close at the moment is encouraging. My last point on our recruiting future is to not overvalue the importance of our stadium/facilities too much. Our facilities have always been subpar, and we used to play in the Orange Bowl for crying out loud. These things didn’t keep us from winning championships. Miami can offer something unique that other programs, outside of USC and maybe a few others cannot. A chance to LIVE on a beautiful campus in a major city where it never gets cold. The education is also top-notch , we are actually ranked above UF now at #47. I know this feeds into your argument about recruits at UM struggling to qualify academically, but I don’t think our academic standards for recruits are quite as high as you think they are. (Example: Latwan Anderson got let in here lol). If anything, I think we can turn this into a positive as parents want to send their kids to good schools. Consider all the (quality) Northeast kids Golden will start recruiting, thats gotta be a major selling point for him. And of course, finally who wouldn’t want to spend four years within proximity of South Beach? I know I went on a little rant there, my point is that the U can offer things other schools cannot that helps mitigate the facilities/stadium issue for recruits. Don’t count us out quite yet. Onto a few questions…
- You seem to have a good pulse on recruiting Bud, what are your thoughts on Dorsett, Chickillo, and Bridgewater? Did Jimbo extend an offer to any of them? If so, is he still recruiting any of them? I am a little worried about Dorsett b/c all of his teammates at St. Thomas are or will be Noles. At the end of the day do you think the Canes land these three guys?
- When you look at our 2012 class, do you think Golden will be able to match Jimbo in recruiting — or at least be in the ballpark? (I am assuming we have more schollies to give out than you guys) Do you expect Jimbo to go after either of the Miami Norland duo of RB Randy Johnson and LB Keith Brown (current Cane commits)? Not sure what the Noles positions of need are but these guys seem like the real deal — they are getting a lot of media hype down here.
Thanks again, I really do enjoy visiting this site and like to keep the rivalry friendly between all of us. I think the best thing for college football is for Miami and FSU to both be on top again. Hopefully it happens soon.
I grew up in S Florida.
Dolphins are the only team that consistently draws well. Other teams, Canes, Heat, Panthers, etc only draw if they are winning during a season at a truly elite level. Unfair? maybe but it always has been that way.
ironic
too that the Dolphins have been mediocre almost every year since 1985. And they STILL are the only reliable draw in South Florida. Dolphin fans are very delusional about their teams prospects at the start of every new season
The delusional FSU wing of fans can be found at Warchant. They had Xavier Lee winning multiple Heismans and have us going 11-1 or better every year, Orange Bowl and maybe national championship. Then we could go like 7-6 and they all would be shocked by it.
Unfortunately it doesn’t appear that it will be getting better anytime soon for the Dolphins. I don’t sense a lot of appreciation for the Jets victory yesterday. People are just fed up with bad QB play and mediocrity. Kind of like Canes fans are.
Don’t know much about warchant although I can tell you that Canesport can be quite as delusional. It’s either the sky is falling and we will be last in the ACC or “The U is back!” and its national title or bust. At times it seems like both our fanbases need to temper their expectations.
feast or famine
at Warchant. When we win, were back. When we lose its ugly. many people are normal there, but the delusional wing is always on display. After we lost to NC and NC St they had multiple long threads there on firing Jimbo either right away or within 2 years. There is a wing there that feels Bobby should still be coaching and allowed to do whatever he wants. Readers here know Jimbo, in one year, pulled this program from a deep sleep up by the britches right into 2010 when it had been languishing in 1990 type methods of running a program.
Don't confuse attendance with expectations/delusions.
Shared misery is 90% of being a Dolphins fan. You’re thinking of the Jets.
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes
"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher
by Drew J Jones on Dec 15, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
Big response coming from me, not ignoring you
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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No doubt, we struggle to show up to games. However, make no mistake, there ARE LOTS of Miami fans down here. The extensive coverage they receive from the local media must be somewhat indicative of that, as they would not receive it without the requisite demand. Three major newspapers cover us regularly (Herald, Sun Sentinel, Pal Beach Post). There is a radio station down here (560 WQAM) that talks Canes 24/7 w/plenty of people calling in. Further, if you go to any sports bar in the city you will find Canes fans watching games on gameday, and find Canes jerseys/logos, etc. posted up. I walked into a gas station in Kendall yesterday (20 miles from campus) and some Cubans were talking about the new coach. I say this because I feel as though many in the media take our attendance as a sign of our overall fanbase, when I personally believe nothing could be further from the truth.
Agreed. I think there are many more fans who show up for the games. But if you don’t show up for the games, you’re not likely to contribute to the school financially.
The real problem is the South Florida fanbase. Look at Heat games – they still aren’t selling out with Wade/Lebron/Bosh. The attendance at the Dolphins/Browns game a few weeks ago was pathetic. (Don’t get me started on the Marlins.) These are bandwagon fans yes, but there is so much to do in Miami that attending games just isn’t at the top of everyone’s priority list down here. My real point is that if you equate a “hardcore fanbase” w/game attendance then your theory of MIA having only 30K “diehard” fans has some merit. However, if you look a little deeper (T.V. ratings, merchandise sales, etc.) I think we have more fan support than you give us credit for. Consequently, the “diehard” fanbase may not be indicative of the overall support this team receives.
You nailed it, but I think I should clarify that the support that matters is the financial support, given by fans buying tickets and boosters. Miami no doubt has a ton of emotional support, but emotional support won’t move the ‘Canes’ Spring Game from a high school to a nice venue.
Onto recruiting. Things have been ugly the past few years, and yes, I am very jealous of you guys and UF. What is most disturbing to me is that you have both successfully penetrated South Florida and are convincing kids to come up North. I almost puked when a FSU friend of mine told me there was an article on Warchant.com about FSU building a “pipeline” to St. Thomas Aquinas That being said, the 2010 class wasn’t quite as bad as you make it out to be. We finished 2010 at #16 per rivals. Say what you will about our “scrubs,” but I guarantee you many of those guys will be able to compete at a high level in the ACC. Seantrel Henderson is a first team freshman All-American. Brandon Linder is a future stud on the line as well. Last I checked Storm Johnson (#7 RB) is a pretty damn good tailback too. He just didn’t see the field much this year b/c of how loaded we are at RB. Tyrone Cornelius was a special teams beast and will contribute on defense next year. Even some of the lower rated guys like Kelvin Cain and Asante Cleveland had their moments this year. And of course, any Miami fan will tell you that stars aren’t everything (see Ed Reed).
I think the idea of a pipeline to St. Thomas is preposterous. That’s basically a mini-college team and is run in a very professional manner. They let kids go where they want.
I think Miami landed some very nice players in that class. Seantrel is obviously someone everyone in the country wanted, and while his dad looking for another major city to try to land a record contract after USC went on probation isn’t indicative of his recruiting ability, it doesn’t matter for Seantrel because FSU still must deal with him. Linder is quite good. I am not a Storm Johnson fan. He tried to commit to LSU, FSU, etc., and they wouldn’t take his commitment. He didn’t even start for his high school team for a while. Rivals rated the class 16th, but you also lost several highly rated recruits to academics or transfer, including Tavadis Glenn, Jeremy Davis, and Latwan Anderson. Miami’s final tally after the dust settled was 5*, five 4*s, sixteen 3*s, and four 2*s. Those 26 guys will be the base of your 2012 and 2013 teams and those guys aren’t going to produce big seasons.
I think Shannon realized recruiting was in trouble, and that he could inflate his recruiting ranking by simply taking more kids, increasing his aggregate score. Of course, we called him on that BS and pointed out the very low average rating.
Now I want to be clear – you guys are kicking our ass in recruiting right now. I get that. But to project doom and gloom for the Canes once this class becomes upperclassmen is a bit farfetched. I actually think we have a shot to finish w/some decent kids this year as well. 4* Phillip Dorsett is a stud WR and appears solid to the Canes. I also am hopeful that 4* DE Anthony Chickillo sticks despite the coaching change – remember his dad and granddad are both former Canes. A few of our former commits are visiting this weekend, and at least in 4* CB Albert Louis Jean’s case, looking for an excuse to recommit to the program.
I agree. The issue is that Miami doesn’t trim the fat like some programs, so the U is stuck with the enormous and unnecessary class of 2010. The guys you listed are impressive prospects, no doubt. I think FSU would take Chickillo and Jean, and Dorsett is definitely FSU caliber, but FSU doesn’t have room.
Finally, for the 2012 recruiting class, we already have four commits, and three are on the ESPN150 watch list. Yes, you guys have four who are all on there, but the fact that we are that close at the moment is encouraging.
Agreed. And as I said in the article, Miami has a chance to be quite good in 2014 when members of that 2012 class are Juniors. The question in my mind is 1) can Miami keep them for the next 14 months, and 2) can the Canes take more kids, particularly those with poor academics? That’s on the administration, not Golden.
My last point on our recruiting future is to not overvalue the importance of our stadium/facilities too much. Our facilities have always been subpar, and we used to play in the Orange Bowl for crying out loud. These things didn’t keep us from winning championships. Miami can offer something unique that other programs, outside of USC and maybe a few others cannot. A chance to LIVE on a beautiful campus in a major city where it never gets cold. The education is also top-notch , we are actually ranked above UF now at #47. I know this feeds into your argument about recruits at UM struggling to qualify academically, but I don’t think our academic standards for recruits are quite as high as you think they are. (Example: Latwan Anderson got let in here lol).
First, USC does have many of those “unneeded” advantages and it can pay its coaches triple what Miami can. But your point about a major city does have appeal to some recruits. And I don’t really understand how Miami handled the academic exemptions thing. Anderson got in but others were not offered because of grades?
If anything, I think we can turn this into a positive as parents want to send their kids to good schools. Consider all the (quality) Northeast kids Golden will start recruiting, thats gotta be a major selling point for him. And of course, finally who wouldn’t want to spend four years within proximity of South Beach? I know I went on a little rant there, my point is that the U can offer things other schools cannot that helps mitigate the facilities/stadium issue for recruits. Don’t count us out quite yet. Onto a few questions…
I do think Golden’s ability to recruit the North East is quite important.
FSU offered Chickillo, didn’t have room for Dorsett, and Teddy never had any interest. Very confident none of those three will be ‘Noles. Can’t say with confidence whether they will be ’Canes.
- You seem to have a good pulse on recruiting Bud, what are your thoughts on Dorsett, Chickillo, and Bridgewater? Did Jimbo extend an offer to any of them? If so, is he still recruiting any of them? I am a little worried about Dorsett b/c all of his teammates at St. Thomas are or will be Noles. At the end of the day do you think the Canes land these three guys?
When you look at our 2012 class, do you think Golden will be able to match Jimbo in recruiting – or at least be in the ballpark? (I am assuming we have more schollies to give out than you guys)I think he will do better than Randy did, but I expect FSU to out-recruit Miami next year, given all the work the staff has put in with the current juniors. Golden will just be building those relationships. Miami really needs to overachieve next year to get some of the excitement back with recruits.
Do you expect Jimbo to go after either of the Miami Norland duo of RB Randy Johnson and LB Keith Brown (current Cane commits)? Not sure what the Noles positions of need are but these guys seem like the real deal – they are getting a lot of media hype down here.I was told FSU liked Duke Johnson at corner. The ‘Noles already have who I consider the best back in the state in Delmarick “Mario” Pender for 2012. Everyone will be after Keith Brown, he’s excellent.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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Bud -
Thanks for the response. You caught me by surprise w/the news that Jeremy Davis wasn’t going to qualify. I know he was at JC this Fall r but thought he was on track to be at the U this spring. He is still on the Canesport commit list but perhaps that is a mistake. It would be a real shame if he never made it here, as he stood by us despite all the turmoil. I knew about Tavadis Glenn and am still disappointed. The only consolation is that we should be set at OL for the next few years. Still, I’d love to have any kid that throws up the U at the Gators Friday Night Lights Camp. As far as Latwan is concerned, there are mixed rumblings around campus about him. I am not “on the inside” enough to know what was going on or whether he’s even still here. However, I do know know that he had his issues with Shannon. He was in his doghouse from day 1 and never got out. he had numerous posts on facebook about how much he loves this place but was being treated like shit by the coaching staff. Apparently he was neglected for being on scholarship as a “track athlete” and never got off the scout team. That being said, he also loved this place — he actually got the “U” tattooed on him. Some Miami fans are under the impression he could stick around now that’s Shannon’s gone. It’s a real shame b/c he would have a chance to start next year if Harris goes pro – we have ZERO CB depth.
Wish I could answer your question on academics but I’m really not sure how some kids “slip under the cracks” while others get sent to Milford Academy in NY (see Jeremy Davis above). I do think there is some benefit to being a smaller private school in that not as much information about the recruiting process is made public. Of course, you are correct in that Shalala and Kirby are very concerned w/the academics of student athletes. Golden’s APR at Temple is a big part of the reason he was hired. I think that if there is a decent 3 star recruit here that has questionable academics the administration will send him to JC. But if a big-time prospect wants to come here and is borderline qualified, we can find a way to get him in. I had classes with a lot of these players and can tell you first hand that they are not model students by any means (though they did always show up for class…and Shannon would come by to make sure!).
You are correct in that we were not Seantrel’s first choice. But there’s that big city appeal for you. Regardless of his father’s motives, if Miami wasn’t in a big city we wouldn’t have landed him (he loves it here btw — kid is the real and all class). What we lack in wowing facilities, 5* meals and hostesses, we make up for in locale. It’s our biggest perk and we have to sell it — even if that means helping a kid’s dad get his rap career off the ground.
Your insight into current recruiting efforts is appreciated. I knew Keith Brown was the real deal but didn’t realize Duke Johnson was being recruited as a corner (you guys aren’t the only ones who want him there – he is listed as an “athlete” on ESPN). I am very surprised you guys didn’t offer Dorsett, especially w/the reputation you guys are building with St. Thomas. I mean what do FSU coaches say to Dorsett when he comes by the school to see all the other recruits there, particularly Dorsett’s boy WR Rashad Greene? Gotta be awkward lol. Not surprised you guys offered Chickillo although some are saying (on Canesport) he could be leaning towards UF now. Apparently Muschamp called him as soon as he got the job. Golden needs to get on that.
Really good post
As for misjudging the die hard fans because they don’t bother to come to the games, I think that is part of the requirement to be die hard. It is easy to buy a 3 or 5 dollar newspaper to read the sports section, or listen to something on the radio. It takes more of a commitment to drive down to the stadium or donate to the boosters. People who just read the paper or watch on tv even when they have a chance to go to the games aren’t exactly die hards.
In regards to that last class, the problem isn’t that it won’t give you a few players of worth. The problem is that Miami used the class to build the future roster and ended up with a ton of 2 and 3 stars that nobody of worth really wanted. And while most of us will acknowledge that pulling two 5* kids after NSD was a big deal, it was the definition of blind luck. How many times can count on the school that a kid decides to go to going on probation and the kid wants out? Or that the main competition for a kid will all decide he is a nut job and stop recruiting him. Filling up 2* and 3* kids forced Miami to shoot for a smaller class, which would have been fine if they pulled in the big fish. But even before the class fell apart Miami missed on most of the big fish in Florida.
A 16th rank class is a warning sign when you are trying to be a National Champion. Nobody competes for NCs pulling in 2 or 3 classes in the mid teens in a row and that was what Miami was on pace to do even before RS was fired. Now with the decomittments even if Golden can work a miracle in a month in the near future Miami will be without the depth of championship talent needed to win. Over the last 3 years Miami has recruited more like Ole Miss than Florida state and Florida.
by osceolafan2.0 on Dec 14, 2010 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
Same here on diehard fan part.
Then again I’m from PA and we are used to sold out stadium for our athletic events. Kinda boggles my mind. That you guys have warmer weather down there and people won’t come out still. We go to games in 15 degree weather out here . The same can’t be said for Florida sports though lol.
Fanbases in Havana-North.
The real problem is the South Florida fanbase. Look at Heat games — they still aren’t selling out with Wade/Lebron/Bosh. The attendance at the Dolphins/Browns game a few weeks ago was pathetic. (Don’t get me started on the Marlins.) These are bandwagon fans yes, but there is so much to do in Miami that attending games just isn’t at the top of everyone’s priority list down here. My real point is that if you equate a "hardcore fanbase" w/game attendance then your theory of MIA having only 30K "diehard" fans has some merit. However, if you look a little deeper (T.V. ratings, merchandise sales, etc.) I think we have more fan support than you give us credit for. Consequently, the "diehard" fanbase may not be indicative of the overall support this team receives.
The Marlins are a young team in a dying game mostly watched by either old Northerners or people who grew up Braves fans. It’s always been a joke of a team. Even when they’re good, nobody cares. The Marlins need to be moved to Des Moines or something.
The ‘Canes are a college team at a small school, with a fanbase of people who couldn’t find the university on a map. There’s no loyalty there.
The Heat were always a bandwagon operation who split their fanbase with the Magic. They’ve only ever been good when they were poaching talent.
The Dolphins are the only team in Miami with any history and loyal following. I think the Dolphins’ attendance issue right now is more a matter of Stephen Ross’s fool mouth. The fans were promised a Super Bowl and a QB better than Marino. Instead they got a team all but out of the playoffs by Week 13 led by a QB whose most effective plays come when he’s lined up as a WR.
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes
"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher
by Drew J Jones on Dec 15, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
...adding:
The strongest emotions I’ve ever heard associated with the Marlins came from Dolphins fans wanting them to get rid of that stupid baseball field at Joe Robbie because it screws up football games.
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes
"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher
by Drew J Jones on Dec 15, 2010 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
Funny, that's what my wife complains about too
Well, that AND the owner who sold the World Series Champion Marlins teams down the river not once, but twice.
You wanna know why nobody go to Marlins games? That’s why. Their enjoyment of the team and the game they play has been deliberately and decisively destroyed. It will take decades for Miami to warm to the Marlins now.
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
tbridgewater5
just tweeted he will announce his college on twitter at 10 pm tonight
rare offseason meltdown
for canesport tonight?
The account says it is a fan account and not affiliated with TB
Can I be on Team Gold??
by nolewhacker on Dec 14, 2010 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
Anyone?
"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government." — Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
"MacGyver is the Jesus Christ of Science" — me
Am I the only one
that thinks that Golden looks like Rod Blagojevich?
by devnole on Dec 14, 2010 10:33 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
No
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Dec 14, 2010 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
Aww damn
Now that you mention it I can see it. rec
by osceolafan2.0 on Dec 14, 2010 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
I thought Muschamp looked like blago
especially the pics with his hair blowing a bit in the Texas wind
This is from the last thread
but that one has gone dead so I wanted to post it here. Bud suggested that FSU is roughly a top 12 program. I disagree and believe he missed the mark a bit. I did some thinking and using his metric “ability to win big” FSU is no worse than the 7th best program in the country. I think it is roughly
USC- in non-sanction years- absurd money, only gig in a fertile recruiting ground.
Texas- absurd money, favorite in fertile recruiting state
UF- great money, slight favorite in heavy recruiting state
OU- great money, slight underdog in fertile recruiting state (Texas)
OSU- great money, only real team in solid but not great recruiting base
LSU- great money, only really team in a solid recruiting state
And then FSU. Behind FSU is:
Alabama- great money, okay but not great recruiting split with another top 20 program
Oregon- lots of money, horrible recruiting
Michigan- lots of money, but awful recruiting, often competing with a top tier school
So here is why: Yes, many schools have more money than FSU, but money is not everything, especially for things you can’t buy, like residency in the state of Florida, arguably the best recruiting grounds in the nation. No matter how much money other SEC schools have, unless they plan on financing a relocation to Orlando or Miami, FSU still has an advantage they don’t have.
Lets conduct a thought experiment to prove my point. We need to hold constant “coaching” from “the program”. Close your eyes and think about the coaching of the Lost Decade. All of the Bobby Bowden, Jeff Bowden, Jody Allen, Chuck Amato, Billy Sexton, Mark McHale shenanigans, and yes, include the bright sides (Steele and Fisher). This is arguably the worst coaching organization of any major BCS team and quite possibly bottom 5 in D1 football. And yet….
The FSU program fared no worse than 7-6 during this period. We went to a bowl game every single year, in spite of some of the worst overall coaching all of college football. All of those wins were based on talent alone. Talent derived from simply being the second fiddle in an amazing state. Now here is where you agree with me. Take the Lost Decade coaches, and stick them at other programs for 10 years an imagine what the outcome would be. That is subject other programs to what FSU was subjected to and consider the counterfactual. I arrived at my original conclusion of ranking, but thinking about the programs that would have survived under those circumstances. USC would probably still be a 9-4 team. Texas too. UF, OU, OSU. LSU would all likely be in the 8-4 to 7-6 range, slightly better than us. But does anyone think that Alabama’s program would have done as well as FSU’s if subjected to the same thing? Alabama would have been a 5 win team per season at most, same with any of the other SEC teams or Michigan, etc. Their isn’t enough recruits in Alabama or Auburn to allow for gross incompetence, and still be a perpetual winning team. The recruiting base kept us alive in the worst years, and its what keeps us as a top 7 “ability to win big” programs despite any $$ differences with other teams in crappy recruiting zones.
If you notice, the teams I listed in the top 7 are basically the major participants and winners of the last decade of national championships. I don’t think that is a coincidence. The big differences is that Miami participated in two and won one, and I am not including them but I am including FSU in the top 7. Basically, the way I look at it now, is that Larry Coker got “our” championship. A championship that belonged to a program in Florida that should have been us but we abdicated our role. (I’m not forgetting Bama, but having the greatest coach in modern CFB history is not a sustainable “program” thing)
I also predict that the next decade will be similar to the last decade. That is, The SEC will probably participate in 6 or 7 or MNCs and win ~4-5. The Pac-10 will win ~2 and participate in 2-3 whether it is USC or their probation successor- Oregon. The ACC will participate in 2 and win ~1, almost certainly FSU. The Big 12 will participate in 3-4 and probably win ~2, UT or OU. The Big 10 will probably participate in 1-2 and win ~1, likely OSU.
by TuckNole on Dec 14, 2010 11:06 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Great work
What if you did it on a tier system?
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Dec 14, 2010 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
Probably much better to do it that way
since none of this is a hard science.
Tier 1
USC, Texas and UF
Tier 2 -
OU, OSU, LSU, FSU
Tier 3-
Alabama, Oregon, Auburn, Michigan, Tenn, Georgia
So basically the top two tiers are made up by the top dog in the 3rd best recruiting state, the top 2 dogs in the first and second best recruiting states, the top dog in the 4th best recruiting state, and the top dog in the 5th best recruiting state.
Tier 3 schools are all capable but will have something holding them back in most years (Auburn and Alabama sharing what is really like the 7th or 8th best state, Michigan and Tenn having to go out of state, etc.)
Penn State or Nebraska also tier 3?
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Waited a while to not influence the response of others
Mine would be
Tier 1
USC, Texas, UF, OSU, LSU
Tier 2 –
OU, FSU, Alabama, Georgia
Tier 3-
Oregon, Auburn, Michigan, Tenn, Penn State, Nebraska
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Dec 15, 2010 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
I'd move Oregon to Tier 2 (with Tier 1 in its sights)
Nike/Oregon’s facilities are the nation’s best, and only getting better. USC’s penalties will give them the PAC12 title for the next half decade. Their recruiting, like UF and USC, focuses more on national talent (makes their poor recruiting location less important).
I just don't see them with the same caliber of player as the first two tiers
they have played a crap schedule and taken advantage of a down USC and are a fun story, but they are like Oklahoma State to me.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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At what point does the 'best facilities' curve level out
I mean at some point a college either has enough facilities to train their players top notch, and millions of dollars after that just gives diminishing returns. How much better facilities does an FSU school need.
I mean you can only have so many flat screens
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Dec 15, 2010 1:45 AM EST up reply actions
should say
“either has enough facilities to train their players top notch, or they dont […]”
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Dec 15, 2010 1:51 AM EST up reply actions
That is, indeed the point, and exactly why we don't need to win "the arms race".
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by PeachTreeNole on Dec 15, 2010 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
I'm much more inclined to agree with this.
No way FSU is above Bama and UGA
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
I know this is late, but... No way on UF/OSU/LSU Tier 1
Florida/Cali/Texas are the most fertile recruiting grounds. Texas owns Texas and USC (non-probation) owns Cali. UF doesn’t own Florida like Texas owns Texas.
Mine would be:
Tier 1 — Texas then USC.
Tier 2 — UF/OSU/LSU/UGA/OU/Bama. Maybe FSU.
UGA is just like OSU/LSU. Very good recruiting state and they would own it if they had a coach.
Bama below FSU?
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
by CornNole on Dec 14, 2010 11:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He made a good point on why I thought. At least a novel idea on why.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Give Bama
the Lost Decade staff for 10 years and would they have even come close to matching FSU’s success? How many bowl games would Bama have gone to with Bobby and co running it for the past 10 years?
in the SEC?
If we assume equal competition, then I agree.
Huge advantage to beat up on the ACC with the talent we were still able to retain, despite the coaching.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
by CornNole on Dec 15, 2010 12:05 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
We don't play in the SEC
and they don’t play in the ACC so that counter-factual doesn’t seem helpful, but I would like to point out in many of those years, we had a tougher schedule than them due to stupid scheduling, so I hold my position.
I think what you've illustrated is the respective "floor levels" of the programs.
But what about ceilings? We can’t afford a Saban; i.e., the very best coach on the market, any time we have need. Nor can we afford the very best of facilities/infrastructure/support. We can do very well, but a notch down. Does that limit our ceiling, then? Or does the recruiting ground outweigh this consideration?
Alabama has proven it can perform at a “10” in the modern environment, even with its in-state peer also performing at maximum capacity. Can we? I think so, but it’s yet to be proven. 2011 and 2012 will show us a lot.
All of the things you mention
are why UF is ahead of FSU, but they don’t help Bama overcome the problem of, well…. being in Alabama. FSU doesn’t need to have the very super duper best top of the line Awesomo 5000 infrastructure/facilities if they have a very good infrastructure/facilities and great recruiting classes year after year. We’ve proven that we can be second fiddle in the state and still pull in top 5-10 recruiting classes every year.
When you consider Alabama, are you sure you are separating the coaching from the school/program? Do this in your mind. Clone the Jimbo and staff 118 times and insert them at every other FCS school. Tell me what the results are at the end of a decade. Alabama has to spend a lot of time recruiting OOS because Alabama doesn’t have enough good kids to field two top 10 teams. I don’t think they would match the success of FSU.
Splitting the state of Florida is infinitely better than splitting the state of Alabama. No?
Splitting the state of Florida is infinitely better than splitting the state of Alabama. No?
You honestly believe that’s how it works?
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
Useful heuristic
But okay. In the grand scheme of things, what can Bama do even with a billion dollars to spend, other than get a marginally better coach, maybe? Instead of 8 S&C staff, are they going to add 10? 15? 20? Will they add a dozen psychologists? 10 nutritionists? Adding an extra 5 nutritionists when 1 or 2 will do is meaningless.
In college football, money isn’t everything, because there is a salary cap: $0 (unless you are Auburn). And there is a limit on # of coaches, so that means a lot of good ones will be left out there regardless of what you pay yours.
isn't there a limit on how many support staff you can have?
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Dec 15, 2010 1:46 AM EST up reply actions
no
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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Wait a minute...
Now you’re back on the money issue?
I thought one of the big issues was talent base to recruit?
Anyways, the ONLY program I consider to be out of place is Alabama. Money aside, I truly believe that Jimbo and company would have equal success to what we can expect at FSU over the next 10 years. It has nothing to do with dollars and cents (although I do disagree with Saban being “marginally” better, but that’s another discussion), but applying what reasonable fans expect Jimbo to do here, to what Alabama has.
I also disagree with the state “splitting” issue. Alabama secures their in-state talent (which I kinda think you are undervaluing…especially when considered as a “ratio” to the number of in state legitimate football programs), then goes out of state accordingly for the elite kids.
But guess what else? State lines are imaginary…if they weren’t, UGA would have kids like Greg Reid and Telvin Smith. And as far as Florida goes…holy hell…EVERYONE has their hand in this cookie jar. Look at Clemson…They have Watkins, Bellamy, and Lane.
Will FSU be able to secure enough in-state talent to become elite? I certainly think so.
Is that difference appreciably different than what Alabama can lock down in state, then go to the surrounding areas (including Florida…Richardson, Clinton Dix are 2 that come to mind immediately) and get?
I don’t think so. There is a lot of FL talent, but a LOT more teams competing for that talent.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
Now you’re back on the money issue?
It’s kind of important since it is the only advantage that Bama has over FSU.
I think it is essentially a debate over what provides a greater ability to win: Alabama’s money advantage or FSU’s recruiting advantage. I think it is the latter, because I think the money advantage is more marginal than the recruiting advantage, but I could be wrong. Just my opinion.
(although I do disagree with Saban being "marginally" better, but that’s another discussion)
I didn’t say that. Having the greatest modern CFB coach isn’t a program feature. If Saban retired today, its not like another Saban is going to come along and Alabama is just going to sign him up. What coach would Alabama get if Saban left tomorrow? Would he be that much better than Jimbo? We just watched UF with all their extra money go out and get essentially the same thing FSU got, a Saban coached coordinator guru.
Alabama secures their in-state talent (which I kinda think you are undervaluing…especially when considered as a "ratio" to the number of in state legitimate football programs)
Last year there were 50 5* and 4* recruits in FL and 13 in AL. Even if FSU only gets 30% of FL and Bama gets 65% of AL we win.
then goes out of state accordingly for the elite kids.
I still say this is “coaching” and not the program. Will the next guy after Saban be able to grab so many elite kids from territories controlled by other schools? Or to put it this way: imagine if Saban was cloned and inserted at every single school in the Southeast. Would Alabama be pulling kids like HCD from UF/FSU? The point is to compare programs, not coaches.
It’s kind of important since it is the only advantage that Bama has over FSU.
I think it is essentially a debate over what provides a greater ability to win: Alabama’s money advantage or FSU’s recruiting advantage. I think it is the latter, because I think the money advantage is more marginal than the recruiting advantage, but I could be wrong. Just my opinion.
So you ignore this advantage because it fits your theory. Alabama’s money will allow them to purchase whatever they want in the modern landscape that will make them successful. FSU cannot do that. Yet, you contend that it’s not a significant advantage? It’s highly irrelevant to another crux of your argument, recruiting.
I didn’t say that. Having the greatest modern CFB coach isn’t a program feature. If Saban retired today, its not like another Saban is going to come along and Alabama is just going to sign him up. What coach would Alabama get if Saban left tomorrow? Would he be that much better than Jimbo? We just watched UF with all their extra money go out and get essentially the same thing FSU got, a Saban coached coordinator guru.
Essentially yes you did. You admitted Saban is the best, so what are we to assume? The way you laid it out is you essentially believe Saban is not that much better than Jimbo. If you didn’t mean that, then by all means, clarify, and please don’t make up names that could potentially be coaches in the next 10 years. Speculation isn’t necessary.
Last year there were 50 5* and 4* recruits in FL and 13 in AL. Even if FSU only gets 30% of FL and Bama gets 65% of AL we win.
And if my aunt had a dick, she’d be my uncle.You’re also ignoring Alabama’s recruiting advantage in other states in the southeast that FSU doesn’t have…And they can keep doing that because…SURPRISE! they can afford a great coach who will pull. And hell, as I stated before, they would do the same with the same coaches as FSU has. As far as basing your argument on recruiting services “star” systems and some speculative percentages? Well, I don’t need to point out the problems with that.
With UF pulling almost ALL the elite talent outta the state over the last 3 years, Bama was still bitch slapping them. Yet, you have Florida as a HIGHER tier? I guess lil ol Alabama was just getting lucky?
I still say this is "coaching" and not the program. Will the next guy after Saban be able to grab so many elite kids from territories controlled by other schools? Or to put it this way: imagine if Saban was cloned and inserted at every single school in the Southeast. Would Alabama be pulling kids like HCD from UF/FSU? The point is to compare programs, not coaches
Dude…your little “exercise” did you in on this one. Plug Jimbo Fisher and his staff into Alabama, and they recruit JUST AS WELL AS SABAN.
The school has the largest fanbase in the southeast, a ridiculous number of alumni, double digit national championships, a strong football tradition, and are kings of the toughest conference in college football.
I’m sorry, but I’m just not buying this one.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
Look, I'm not denying that great coach
Can’t do great things at Bama. The evidence bears that out. But all of this things you mention don’t always lead to the ability to consistently win, otherwise Michigan wouldn’t be such a mess.
All FSU has to do is continue to be able to afford a top 15 coach, stay in the ACC where we can go 10-2 or 11-1 most years, and never relocate out of the state and that alone will allow us to make it to the big dance 2-3 times a decade.
by TuckNole on Dec 15, 2010 7:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
“Essentially yes you did. You admitted Saban is the best, so what are we to assume? The way you laid it out is you essentially believe Saban is not that much better than Jimbo. If you didn’t mean that, then by all means, clarify, and please don’t make up names that could potentially be coaches in the next 10 years. Speculation isn’t necessary.”
It’s entirely possibel we aren’t comparing the same things. I’m talking about programs not coaches. To do this you need to divorce the analysis from either schools current coaches. If Alabama and FSU were both on the market for a new coach this year, would they get someone who is light years ahead of FSU? Are we USF or something? FSU isn’t Texas but we wouldnt be settling for an Al Golden. So that is what I mean when I say that in general (once in a lifetime hires aside) Bama’s extra money gets them a marginally better coach than FSU.
by TuckNole on Dec 15, 2010 7:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Tuck
Do this in your mind. Clone the Jimbo and staff 118 times and insert them at every other FCS school. Tell me what the results are at the end of a decade
By this logic, where is Miami? What would YOU expect Jimbo and company to turn out down there after a decade?
If Alabama having a ton of money is irrelevant, then certainly we can apply the same to Miami, no? Why aren’t they listed?
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
Money
not irrelevant. Money is very important. But after you get over the a certain threshold for competent and attentive support staff and qualified coaches after that it is marginal. FSU is over that threshold. Miami is not. Nor is FIU or FAU in case you were wondering.
by TuckNole on Dec 15, 2010 2:25 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think where I'm differentiating is that...
a program with Alabama’s money can buy a GUARANTEED commodity like Saban as a head coach when they need it. We will still have to take a chance on an up-and-comer at this point, because we do not have the funds to grab the hottest name on the market.
When we make a good choice (a la Jimbo) the difference in coaching staffs is indeed marginal or non-existant… however, if/when we make a poor choice, we will suffer. So, when evaluating the “program,” you have to punish us for the possibility that we don’t make a good hire; even if we’re operating with prudence in our coaching search, whereas Alabama can eliminate any uncertainty on this front.
Nick Saban
Is a once in a lifetime coach. Alabama can’t. Be expected to get the equivalent every time.
Look at UF who we all agree is top tier. All of their extra money got them basically the same exact thing FSU got. It would be different if UF could use all their money to keep coaches and players away from us, but coaching caps, schollie limits, and salary caps help us out.
by TuckNole on Dec 15, 2010 7:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Nah, he's just the best coach in the biz right now.
There’s always gonna be the latest, greatest thing around.
And, actually, the more rare such a commodity is, the more potential advantage the biggest schools have.
Are you retarded or something?
Or just deliberately not reading what I’m writing? I’v always said that money is important, but there is a concept of diminishing returns, especially in college football where there are caps on the two most important things, pay for players and, number of coaches. You believe this too otherwise you would be ranking Okie State or Oregon at the top.
You need to be able to afford millions of dollars for coaches and support staff. We have that. But what we don’t need is 15 nutritionists whe it is a 1 or 2 person job. The concept of diminishing marginal returns is clear, not every dollar is invested at the same rate of return. FSU can forgo many of the things other schools have (brand new weight rooms, player dorms, flat screen tv’s, luxury coaches offices, private jet use, refurbished stadium boxes, etc) and still be just as effective. Sure it’s not as aesthetically appealing, and it may be a half decade before we get an IPF, but we don’t need thos things to compete at the highest level. Jimbo took care of the low hanging fruit when he took over.
by TuckNole on Dec 15, 2010 7:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He never said money was irrelavent
He said it isn’t everything. His point is that at some point, when it comes to hiring a staff, more money isn’t going to buy that much better of an advantage.
His point about Saban also makes a ton of sense. No matter how much money you have, there’s only one Nick Saban and while other coaches may be good, they don’t all absolutely blow the rest of the pack out of the water. Most of the elite coaches in the country have elite jobs already and wouldn’t leave them for lateral moves.
Alabama is fortunate to have Nick Saban as a head coach, but he isn’t a feature of the Alabama program like resources and location are. If Saban were to leave Alabama for any reason, their resources and location would remain the same, their coaching staff would not.
Wow, some great points here.
In the Lost Decade i think we’ve had a bit of entitlement. Then once that wore off we just rolled over and died. Our players didn’t take preperation seriously and our coaching staff was the laughing stock of BCS programs, and yet we never finished with a record below .500 and never missed a bowl.
I get what you are saying about the poor coaching...
But how does playing in a weaker conference factor in? We’d have had worse records in a different conference (in my opinion).
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
by CornNole on Dec 15, 2010 12:01 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Oregon has much more fertile recruiting ground than you're crediting.
They have a 500 mile radius where their only real competition is Cal and Washington, plus enough money to recruit Texas.
by norcal_nole on Dec 15, 2010 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
Not really
Oregon can’t get anyone from Texas that UT or OU (and probably Tech and A&M) wanted, so that doesn’t count.
And having an exclusive on that 500 mile radius gets you a top 20 program at best. Oregon is allowed to play in the top 5 when USC gets put in the penalty box.
Not sure having to rely on a 500 mile radius to hit good recruiting grounds is a positive.
I’d argue every program in the south has better talent in a much smaller radius.
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
I you look at where States are going over the next 30 years
Alabama’s population under the age of 18 is declining. Their talent pool is shrinking and this is VERY significant since Alabama is not a state people migrate to. Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Michigan, Nebraska, Ohio, Oklahoma, and Pennsylvania all have major D-1 College Football programs that are either going to see a decline in their population under the age of 18 or have such low population growth that I would say they are at risk for losing population under the age of 18.
States that have some of the fastest growth under 18 are Georgia, North Carolina, Arizona, California and Texas (though their growth is different, so I’m not sure I would really count it. If anything, talent in those states will probably shrink due to the nature of the growth), Florida, Nevada, Utah, Washington, and Oregon.
Most of these states are programs that are up and comers (Nevada, Utah, UNC, and Oregon, I’m looking at you).
If you don’t think this is important, you are blind.
The Swami has spoken.
by seminole_swami on Dec 15, 2010 9:46 AM EST up reply actions
Have to look at what Katrina did too
Drove many kids to Alabama. Now those kids aren’t quite as into LSU anymore.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Dec 15, 2010 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
You nailed it.
This is exactly why all of the hand-wringing over the fact we’re not spending like UF, Texas, USC, and some of the SEC schools is a bit pointless. We don’t need to be at the top of “the arms race”- just have good coaching and take advantage of our location. The advantages UF has over FSU are less now than they have been, financially, politically, and otherwise, and those differences won’t directly translate to significant advantages on the field. In fact, UF can’t duplicate one huge advantage we have— our road to the MNC is through the ACC. We’ll be playing for it as much or more than they will over the next decade.
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by PeachTreeNole on Dec 15, 2010 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
Well then we need to schedule to maximize that advantage, no?
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Dec 15, 2010 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
Absolutely.
And also why those arguing we should join the SEC are wrong. That would not improve our prospects. Why give up one of our biggest advantages? (I note that Texas didn’t.)http://www.tomahawknation.com/2010/12/14/1875977/canes-hire-of-al-golden-may-signal-the-u-isnt-in-it-to-win-it#
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by PeachTreeNole on Dec 15, 2010 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
Only reason I'd want to join the SEC is if the ACC became weakened somehow.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Wouldnt even care.
As Bud points out, record not resume. Highschool kids think like this too. Beat up on the other ACC teams to the tune of 10-2 or 11-1 in most years, and we’ll pull consistent top 5 classes.
by TuckNole on Dec 15, 2010 8:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You would most definitely care.
If The ACC becomes weakened financially while other conferences strengthen financially and the competition in the ACC is turning into that of the Big East, that would most certainly hurt us.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
ACC will never turn into the Big East...
even if FSU/VT or Clemson jumped to the SEC. As long as UNC/Duke are in the ACC they will get that basketball money.
Isn't that what the Big East was getting?
UConn, Cuse, G’town, Nova, WVU, Pitt, ND, L’ville…
You take VT, FSU and Clemson out of the ACC and the ACC is the Big East. But Miami would be “really good” again.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Yeah,
but those teams do not = UNC and Duke. Perhaps the two biggest basketball draws in the US.
Sorry, but basketball is a distant second to football when you talk revenue draw.
Even when you talk UNC football, the oblong ball pulls in more money than the round ball does.
Football pulls in more money than basketball, and it’s not even close.
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-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
Who said it was?
I said the ACC would still get a much higher TV deal than the Big East, even if FSU jumped to the SEC.
Yet Miami is finished
due to lack of spending. By your rationale, if Golden turns out to be a good coach, it will wash out the lack of spending at Miami.
by Nole Resurrected on Dec 15, 2010 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
Miami's admin has a lot to say about its football future
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Dec 15, 2010 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
With the right coach, and Golden could be that coach,
We could be in the ACCCG next year. The talent is there, it will be a down year for the conference. It’s not unheard of for a new coach to get there year one.
by Nole Resurrected on Dec 15, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
Next year I think you have zero shot
Va Tech dodges FSU from the Atlantic, get you and UNC at home.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Dec 15, 2010 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
Taylor is gone.
Both rb’s are testing the draft waters, and Stiney is still OC.
by Nole Resurrected on Dec 15, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
They return much more than Miami does
And have a better QB than Miami even though Taylor left in 5* Logan Thomas (3rd year kid, 6’6" 240)
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Dec 15, 2010 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not saying we will win it,
just saying if the talent can be coached up, we’ll have a shot.
by Nole Resurrected on Dec 15, 2010 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
Even if you beat VT I still have a hard time seeing you win it
They just don’t have the losable games on their schedule. it’s a bad year to be in the Coastal.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Dec 15, 2010 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Miami has one advantage: location.
It operates at a disadvantage in everything else.
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---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Jigga what?
If you notice, the teams I listed in the top 7 are basically the major participants and winners of the last decade of national championships. I don’t think that is a coincidence. The big differences is that Miami participated in two and won one, and I am not including them but I am including FSU in the top 7. Basically, the way I look at it now, is that Larry Coker got "our" championship. A championship that belonged to a program in Florida that should have been us but we abdicated our role. (I’m not forgetting Bama, but having the greatest coach in modern CFB history is not a sustainable "program" thing)
You think the 2001 ‘Canes won “your” Championship. First off, no one has ever put that kind of talent on the field in one year before or since. While we are on the subject of “our” championship, I watched y’all piss away what should have been #5 for us or at least #3 for y’all.
by Nole Resurrected on Dec 16, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
I think he's saying we would/should have taken those same players,
if our coaching staff hadn’t already packed it in.
Not agreeing or disagreeing, as I didn’t follow those guys’ recruitment, but it’s not a huge stretch to think it was possible. (And strange to think that so many of these guys that we think of as die hard alums were so close to being other-colored.)
Blah blah blah #5 blah blah blah.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Shoulda been your #3, if y'all hadn't shit the bed.
What has always pissed me off isn’t so much that y’all got the invite over us, it’s how y’all pissed it away.
BTW, good reply. Very well thought out.
by Nole Resurrected on Dec 17, 2010 9:21 AM EST up reply actions
I appreciate it. You guys bitch about it so much.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Isn't that UW's title?
I know you said you weren’t pissed about not getting to the game, but still…
So would USC and OSU.
You don’t have to hold us to that since we aren’t in the SEC and aren’t going anytime soon. You can say the same thing for FSU in the 90’s. FSU brought in the sickest decade of talent of any CFB team (in history?) by going 11-1 or 10-2 every year beating up on inferior opponents and playing 1-2 real games a year before playing in a MNC game.
And yes the talent was real as evidenced by our decade atop the NFL player numbers.
by going 11-1 or 10-2 every year beating up on inferior opponents and playing 1-2 real games a year before playing in a MNC game
I hate this myth. Say what you want about the ACC, but pretty sure our SOS stacked up or was superior to most teams during the 90s. Think 1993 was overall toughest schedule, in fact. Virginia was producing the likes of Tiki Barber. Clemson had Woody Dantzler. NC State with Torry Holt. GT with Joe Hamilton, Mack Brown’s UNC. On the other hand, the SEC wasn’t the modern, dollar-inflated hype machine SEC that we know today.
I think we made the ACC “FSU and the 8 dwarves” precisely because we “brought in the sickest decade of talent of any CFB team in history,” as you so eloquently stated. Otherwise, it wasn’t a bad collection of teams.
That's where I got lost too on this point.
Not sure how it equates to the poster’s point about the Lost Decade.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
Perhaps...
…I overstated the point. I’m not sure what our SOS looked like back then but if you say it was strong, then that’s cool. Perhaps I should have said, FSU was only challenged twice a year before heading off to a MNC game.
I was really just trying to emphasize the fact that you can’t divorce a teams success from who they play. Saying that FSU isn’t “easier to win big” because Bama plays in a harder conference misses the point, because FSU isn’t in the SEC. You could say the same thing about USC in the and the Pac-10. Carroll amassed the best sustained collection of talent in one school since FSU in the 90’s by going 10-2 or 11-1 every year not really being challenged except 1 or 2 games and then going on to a MNC game.
There was an article on teams' SOS going into the BCS title game
The top two toughest schedules were 99 and 00 FSU
by osceolafan2.0 on Dec 15, 2010 6:03 AM EST up reply actions
Agree with your general point,
but think it’s a current circumstance moreso than historic. The scheduling/“wins are all that matter” arms race wasn’t in full effect in the 1990s. Crap teams were crap and no one really cared if they went undefeated; they weren’t getting invited to the dance because everyone knew they didn’t belong. See Tommy Bowden’s undefeated Tulane team as exhibit 1a.
Modern sports media is constituted of a bunch of sissies that sympathize with the plights of the underdog, because they were used to being last pick in their neighborhood football games. And, yes, I’m looking at both of you, Stewart Mandel and Mike Tirico. On the other side of things, the dumb jocks in broadcasting can’t come up with a cohesive argument to counter the weenies, so they fall in step.
Just for the record...
…Joe Robbie is in Miami Gardens, not Opa Locka.
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes
"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher
Meaning it's even more absurd.
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes
"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher
by Drew J Jones on Dec 15, 2010 7:50 AM EST up reply actions
Practically in Broward.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
I hate to go here with this, but the Jason Whitlock article was
nothing more than a hitpiece. Whitlock was a big time Randy guy. Everyone who read anything from Whitlock knows he think no black coach should be fired, no black player suspended. Just give him time, and I’m sure he’ll write an article stating the Randy Shannon firing was racially motivated.
by Nole Resurrected on Dec 15, 2010 10:24 AM EST reply actions
Yet everyone is quoting him
as if he’s an objective observer. If Golden was a black dude replacing Coker, you think Whitlock wouldn’t singing a different tune?
by Nole Resurrected on Dec 15, 2010 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
That's what I was thinking when I read it but I didn't want to be the first to say it.
Just said “Good ol’ Whitlock”.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
I can't stand Jason Whitlock
He’s employed for one reason and one reason only
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
I thought Whitlock was anti the Turner Gill hype?
But even if Whitlock had impure motivations for his statement, that doesn’t make them untrue. We looked up the amount of money MAC teams spent on football and Temple was at the top. We looked at Golden’s record and saw he lost against winning teams and beat up on some of the worse teams in FBS.
by osceolafan2.0 on Dec 15, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
I especially like your Central Michigan/Brian Kelly comparison.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Whitlock was the first dude
who said that Gill should NOT have gotten the Auburn gig and that the only “victim” in the entire situation was Tubs in all actuality
by westcoastnolefan on Dec 15, 2010 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
I think every once in a while, he flips the script just so he can keep on
and when he gets called out, he can say “hey remember that one time I criticized a black guy, but not really.”
Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole
Have you bothered to read Whitlock's articles
on Allen Iverson, Randy Moss, and Serena Williams? Those are hit pieces. There’s simply no way to rationalize ‘100-216’ and 2-24 with the biggest budget in the MAC. I don’t care for Whitlock myself but the facts are clear. And for the record: Doug Gottlieb was on the radio bashing the hire and reciting some of the very same facts before I was even aware of what Whitlock said
by westcoastnolefan on Dec 15, 2010 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
I agree though,
the point doesnt lose all validity just because it comes from Whitlock.
Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole
For the record, Golden was the only candidate offered.
Word is that Pelini was in serious talks, until the media blew the lid off it. When he made his statement that wasn’t planning an interview with Miami, he’d ALREADY interviewed. Once it got out that he was interested and had talked with Hocutt without Osbourne’s permission, the talks were over.
by Nole Resurrected on Dec 15, 2010 10:48 AM EST reply actions
I don't believe that
I believe Tubbs said Miami couldn’t pay his staff.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Dec 15, 2010 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
Even if he were the only one offered he wasn't even close to their top choice.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
I belive that is playing semantics
Any school will avoid officially offering a coach a job until they know he will accept it. That doesn’t mean the other people weren’t more desired than the one guy who was offered the job. Miami would have happily taken Gruden, Pelini and probably Tubbs before Golden. But after the talks when the school saw they weren’t going to get those guys of course they aren’t going to offer them the job.
by osceolafan2.0 on Dec 15, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
I never said, Miami wasn't intrested, just that they didn't offer the job.
I never wanted to see Tubberville as HC. Miami has always had the most success with up and comers, not retreads or lifetime assistants (except Butch).
Schnellenbuger, fired from Baltimore Colts during season. (the first to actually recruit South Fl)
Jimmy Johnson, 2 losing seasons in 5 years at OK St.(can’t recruit South Florida)
Dennis Erickson, from WASU (can’t recruit South Florida)
Butch Davis, lifetime assistant
Coker, promoted from within
Shannon, promoted from wthin
Golden, won at Temple (can’t recruit So Florida)
by Nole Resurrected on Dec 15, 2010 11:05 AM EST reply actions
That's like a guy saying he didn't offer to take the prettiest girls in school to the prom
Miami gaged the interest and there was none. He was probably the 5th choice, at best.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Dec 15, 2010 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
Do you honestly believe
that if you offered Muschamp, and Ill even say 2.5 million a year, he would have left Texas to go coach at Miami?
Or even more broadly, do you think you could have gotten any other “up and comer”, and if so, who? Im not doggin the hire, I believe it was as good as you could do.
That said, when have you ever had a coach that wasnt a retread, lifetime asst, or up and comer? Im thinking there is a reason you guys never get the really hot pro$pect.
Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole
I think there's a good chance Muschamp would've left for Miami at that salary.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."
"Thanks tricknole!"
Not me. None. Zero. Muschamp went to UF because he's set up for success nearly as well there as he would be in Austin, only 5 years (or so) sooner.
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If I were to take the job at Miami I would
go back to the thug U ways. I dont want to sound wrong by this but I would go and get coaches that can teach basic stuffs. I would run a fast pace spread option offencs and a no care so much about Def. I would focus on out scoring teams. I would get the fastest kids from the miami area for WR and DB. I would find a fast FB and use him as my RB and the fastest QB I can get. I would run nothing but bubbles, screens and crossing routes. The key is to get these kids with speed in open field and make people miss. The FB as a RB is because I want someone that can pound the zone read a slower but bigger back. I would got shotgun 90% of the time with 3-4 WR. I would have one back. To top it off you have a fast QB that runs the option from shotgun. Now you would need to load up one fast QB though because if he gets hurt game over.
For Def I would just recruit the biggest D-line I could. I wouldnt care about talent. All you need to do is stop the run. Make teams pass and hope your fast DBs can get a pick or something. If someone cant run and they have to throw then that will kill most teams.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Des I might too
but will the administration allow it?
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Dec 16, 2010 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
its all about how you sell it.
Im going to run a spread offence.
Im going to go get some fast kids.
Im going to have to take some risks on one or two (5 or 6)
Im going to need to change the face down here. Bring back the past
Im going to need somewhere to play BUILD A HIGH SCHOOL STADIUM at the least. (anyone ever been to Tommy Oliver in PC) thats all you need for now.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Not on that scale, but Golden is embracing the past.
Something Shannon would never do. Golden said his first act as coach is to rebuild the bridge with the former Canes. There’s no reason why Dan Morgan can’t get his calls returned by Shannon or even get on the sidelines. Golden wants to have as much interaction with the greats as he can get.
by Nole Resurrected on Dec 16, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
Its gonna be hellacious if it goes back to the old days
I can appreciate the guys wanting to be on the field, BUT I used to be on the field too (know the guy that ran concessions) and it was a mess out there. There is such a thing as too many guys out there, all of them with an opinion on what the player should do differently. And then lets say Golden has some guys come back. When he starts limiting how many do, inevitably they will all want to be there for the big games, and whoever doesnt make the cut will get butt hurt.
I think Shannon was perfect, but he was in a tight spot as far as the former players was concerned.
Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole
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