Florida State 2011 Recruiting Needs
by Bud Elliott on Feb 10, 2010 9:15 AM EST
in FSU Football Recruiting
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PrintWith the 2010 recruiting class wrapped up, we move on to the 2011 recruiting season. There are 359 days until signing day 2011 and about 540 days until opening day 2011. That seems like a long way off, but recruiting is a year-round endeavor and the dominant programs do a lot of their best work in the months after signing day. Even if a player doesn't sign in the coming months, if he does eventually sign, you can bet the groundwork was laid in the Spring of the player's junior year. Texas is probably the program most noted for this. They typically have 20 prospects commit as juniors. In the coming weeks and months our Tomahawk Nation recruiting staff will profile the top kids in the state of Florida and South Georgia (a prime recruiting location for Florida State). They will discuss which players could end up in Tallahassee, who is likely to head elsewhere, who is under-hyped, and who is overrated. But before we get into recruiting we need to lay the framework for Florida State's class. That means determining the size and positional composition of the class.
Let's start with a chart that shows the breakdown of FSU's returning roster by position, the total number per position, the ideal composition of a roster (per Nick Saban), and has some notes on each position. The "goal" number doesn't need to be dead on and represents the necessities. It can fluctuate some but should not fluctuate too much. Being below goal is much more acceptable with a young position group. Being above goal is better if a position group is very veteran and thus the need for seasoned backups is more pressing. The chart below reflects the roster numbers for the upcoming season (2010). Obviously, Seniors will not be around for the 2011 season, for which we will be forecasting the recruiting class size and makeup. The "Need" category assumes a bare minimum and no attrition.
| Position | Sr | Jr | So | Fr | Total | Goal | Need | Note |
| QB | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 3.5 |
1 | Expect Trickett to redshirt. Some think Secord could transfer after this season if Trickett were to pass him. |
| RB | 1 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 6 | 6 |
1 | Will Ty Jones remain on the team given his diabetes problems and depth chart position? Don't expect many upperclassmen backing up underclassmen under Fisher. |
| WR | 0 | 4 | 3 | 6 | 13 | 11 | 0 | Easterling legitimately might go full-time baseball following the 2010 season. We don't expect Wade on the team much longer as Fisher never wanted him in the first place and Bowden wouldn't allow him to be cut. Avis Commack moved to safety. A.J. Alexander is now at receiver, but will he remain on the team? Will Jarmon Fortson go pro early? Will attitude concerns see him and FSU go separate ways? |
| TE | 1 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 5 | 4.5 |
1 | With no fullback, a two-deep +1 is preferable. Will Jabarris Little remain on the team if he doesn't get serious playing time as a senior? |
| OL | 2 | 4 | 2 | 5 | 13 | 15 | 4 | No attrition is expected. |
| DL | 1 | 2 | 5 | 6 | 14 | 17 | 4 | Will Jamar Jackson stay on the team? He hasn't been the same since his knee injury and upperclassmen who don't contribute probably will not be around. This is a very young group for 2011 and will have only 1 or 2 seniors in 2011. |
| LB | 2 | 2 | 1 | 5 | 10 | 10 | 2 | Will Bradham go pro? Will Moody move to linebacker? How is Vince Williams' back after surgery and a medical redshirt year? |
| CB | 1 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 7 | 7 | 1 | Will Dionte Allen stay on the team? Will he start in this year or next? Can he get over his injury-prone nature? Upperclassmen who are passed on the depth chart by younger players will probably not be asked back. Perhaps he could get a MedDQ and finish his education that way. |
| S | 0 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 8 | 7 | 0 | Will Avis Commack stick at his new position? Will Ed Imeokporia be on the team? Is Justin Bright long for Tallahassee? If Terrance Parks doesn't get serious playing time will he transfer, considering he would have been passed up by younger players? Will Moody move to linebacker? |
| K | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | |
| P | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | |
| Total | 9 | 21 | 20 | 32 | 82 | 83 | 13 | FSU will be at 85 scholarships for the 2011-2012 season (Finally) |
* The "Goal" category only adds up to 83 to allow for roster freedom. Half numbers such as "3.5" mean that a team should have 3 or 4 players at that position.
Let's talk a little roster composition theory:
FSU has too many skill position players. 15 DB's is too many with only 1 senior. And I'm told there are some very good DBs in the upcoming class. The writing is on the wall for the DBs listed above. They won't be long for FSU. This is especially important because Stoops is a DB coach. He needs to be able to get the most out of the defensive backs without over-signing at the position. Stoops is a great DB coach and I expect him to be able to take fewer DBs and turn them into studs at a higher rate than DB coaches who are not great, thus allowing FSU to dominate in other areas. The same goes for the receivers. 13 wide receivers is not functional depth. It is overkill and it hurts other positions.
It is up to Fisher and Stoops to cut down on the number of skill position players. Somehow, I think the numbers will work out.
Defensive line is another story. Defensive line is the position that must be consistently over-recruited. Teams need to take 5 every single year. (3 DE/ 2 DT one year, then 2 DE/ 3 DT the next) That's because the attrition rate for defensive linemen is extremely high. Additionally, defensive line sleepers seem to have the lowest chance of success. Because FSU isn't going to be pulling in classes comprised solely of defensive line studs every year (very few teams do), it must increase it's opportunities to have some lower-rated prospects turn into stars. That means taking 5 defensive linemen every year.
FSU needs to get in a yearly pattern of taking 4 OL, 5 DL , and 2/3 LB (alternating years). In any given year the 'Noles should have about 41 OL+DL+LB. Having 40 or 42 is acceptable. Having 38 is not. Saban routinely carried 43 when he was at LSU and he has continued the trend at Alabama.
Granted, FSU did bring in 11 players at those positions this time and the blame for the lack of numbers falls largely on the previous staff. FSU's lack of depth was not something one recruiting class can cure. But next year is year two of the two-year process of fixing the front-7 depth issue. Fisher & Co. must make sure they stay focused on re-stocking the front-7 and bringing in offensive linemen. Fisher learned from Saban and it looks as if he is aware of the issue.
Overall it looks like FSU is finally learning to avoid the pitfalls of underrecruiting a position for years and having to oversign as a result.
Inside, you'll find the Tomahawk Nation class projection. Click "continue reading."
As shown in the chart above, the bare minimum for the next recruiting class in order to meet positional goals before any attrition is:
QB
RB
TE
4 OL
4 DL
2 LB
1 CB
That's 14 total players. You can bet, however, that FSU is going to bring in more than 14 players. Based on the most likely attrition situation, we project that FSU's recruiting class will break down something like this:
QB
1-2 RB
1-2 WR (2 if FSU loses Easterling, Wade, Alexander, and Fortson before 2011 and both)
1 TE
4-5 OL (Potential for 5 if FSU loses someone to attrition)
4-6 DL (likely 2 DE & 3 DT, depending on Jackson's status)
2-3 LB
4-5 DB (5 only if they are studs and one likely moves to linebacker)
On the low end that projects to 18 and 25 on the high end. FSU is not going to take 26 kids in the 2011 class. I'll explain why in a minute. My best guess at this point is that FSU will take 19-22 players in the 2011 class.
The reason I don't believe FSU will take 25 kids in the next recruiting cycle is the massive attrition if would require. With 73 returning players following this season before attrition, FSU will need to lose one player for every recruit it takes exceeding 12. Taking 19 means FSU loses 7 players to attrition by August of 2011. Taking 22 means FSU loses 10 players to attrition by August 2011. You can probably pick out 5 or 6 players from the above roster. But can you find 10? It is tough right now but in 18 months I bet it will work out.
Keep in mind that any attrition doesn't necessarily need to be occur until August 2011. Unless the player is a poor influence on his teammates, the better plan is to let him remain on the team and pump up the Academic Progress Rate until the time arises that requires attrition. Additionally, the new coaches need to take this year to evaluate the current kids on the roster and see how they respond to competent coaching.
For more on the roster, see Offensive Roster Review | Defensive Roster Review | 2010 Signing Class Review
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Excellent read! When will we see the list of FSU's top targets?
With what appears to be a fairly small class coming in for 2011, there’s a great opportunity for our full staff of recruiters to spend a lot more time with fewer, but more quality players. Maybe Coley could even take a weekend vacation… HAHAHA!
love this site
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
Tomorrow is not necessarily FSU's top targets, that is still being assembled
365 days, until I change my ways.
When is the likely time period that transfers will be announced this year?
May? June? Near the end of the semester?
Right, so do we see transfers next year after the end of the Fall Semester?
Meaning, coaches give players an opportunity to play/perform under their leadership for this Spring, Summer and the Fall, evaluate them post-season, and direct non-performers out prior to NSD 2011?
If you had to guess right now for transfers after Spring 2010, would you say 2-3 max (in addition to those already identified (Prior, Gresham, etc)?
I think could happen after Spring 2011
remember, we do not need to get under the number until August of 2011. Why not benefit from their academic advancement with the APR points gained in Spring 2011?
The one we have been waiting for
You are the man FSUn!
Not that I haven’t delved into this subject myself. Here is some info I stumbled upon concerning Eric Beverly. Note back in 2008 this article indicates he was 5-6 back then (He is 5-11, 220 last time I saw something on it. Anyway in this particular game it indicates he picked up 308 yards on 44 carries and didn’t even look like he needed a bucket of ice afterwards.
It looks to me Jimbo is still searching for that Jacob Hester type back (Smiley now Beverly) that will block and run over the top of people.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/03/SPM413AEU9.DTL&feed=rss.sports
And yes let me be the first to say we are the top three recruiting class in the nation for 2011 according to MaxPreps!
http://www.maxpreps.com/news/rVW_dxDoEd-UswAcxJTdpg/early-top-10-recruiting-classes-for-2011.htm
“3. Florida State
Key recruits: OL Trey Pettis, RB Eric Beverly, DB Lamarcus Brutus, DB Keelin Smith
Comment: Pettis is one of the state’s top lineman, while Beverly has the makings of a top running back. Landing linebacker Jeff Luc from Treasure Coast (Port St. Lucie, Fla.) this year helped them attract 2011 teammates Lamarcus Brutus and Keelin Smith.”
I saw another article indicating that Brutus and Keelin Smith were heavily influenced to follow Luc to FSU. Can’t have too many pipelines.
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
That is actually the wrong Beverly you are referencing
Eric Beverly plays for First Coast in Jacksonville, same school as Nigel Carr, Jermaine Thomas, Avis Commack, and 2011 DE prospect Derrick Mitchell:
http://rivals.yahoo.com/floridastate/football/recruiting/player-Eric-Beverly-96726
He also calls himself a soft verbal according to Rivals.
That should be a rule in the TN Charter
All things associated with Tom Lemming should be banned.
by Doak on Feb 10, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We're at 84 for this upcoming season
but will we have 85 schollies for the 2011 season, or is it the year after?
You are right
How many Eric Beverlys can there be? There is another one who is a tight end in the NFL.
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
Nice article
the state of Florida will be flush with talent next year and I expect our class to be outstanding. I would pass out if we could steal Jernigan away from the Gators and also could somehow swing Lemay into the class. 2011 should be interesting.
Striker: "Surely you can't be serious!" Rumack: "I am serious... and don't call me Shirley."
A lot of Gator fans I talk to see Lemay as an easy get for them
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
They are the premier program in the country
but we have to focus on improving ourselves.
If they were an “A” for the alst 5 years and continue to be an A, and we were a C during that time and improve to a solid B, we’ve made up ground on them. FSU isn’t close to them at the moment. They took a knee against us in the first half last year. I want to get to a point where FSU isn’t an automatic W for UF.
The gators were the one program
to truly expose our situation. Our athletes were able to overcome bad coaching in a lot of games. I don’t know why it took so many huge losses by the gators to realize this.
I’d expect a huge improvement this year from the coaching changes and attitude alone. Maybe not a win, but it won’t be a rollover victory for them. I’d anticipate a win in the next couple years
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
I want to be competitive with them
I realize we’re not gonna equal them unless something happens to them that is out of our control (like their coach dying), but I want to be in the games in thr 4th quarter and wil like 50% of the home games.
Over the course of the decade, if we could go 3-2 at home against them (maybe even 2-3) and win 1 of 5 in the Swamp, I’d take those 4 wins and run like I stole something.
We are closer than you think
With a fully functioning staff we will compete with them. I don’t see any blowouts on the horizon.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry
Either I’m too subjective as a fan, or i’m not objective enough. But 50% of home games would not be good enough for me.
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
We won 5 home games vs UF in the 90s.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
Right
We can return to that.
Did UF go through some massive growth at the beginning of this decade that I missed?
They learned how to out-spend people yes, but they are still not as dominant right now as we were at one point.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
My answer was kind of ambigious
They have more talent and better coaching now than they ever did and I would say it is on par with what we had in the 90s
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
Are they as dominant as USC was?
Their 4 loss season sticks out to me. I know they are cleaning up on the recruiting trail and dominating the in-state rivals but a lot of that is due to FSU and Miami being down.
You could say both are down due to UF’s dominance but it is also due to coaches such as Bowden and Shannon.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
That 4 loss season with QB with no experience and losing a ton of talent
I think UF is more impressive than USC because they do it with a lot more competition
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
sorry again
didn’t mean for this to be about who was better when. Just meant I wouldnt be happy with it regardless
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
They're pretty dominant for having to play in the SEC.
But I’m with you generally. Nothing lasts forever. Meyer won’t be at UF for 30 years.
Even after Tebow's senior bowl performance?
thats pretty funny. Tebow would be a 5th or 6th rounder if his name wasn’t Tebow. And I’m being extremely kind
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 10, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not so sure he'd even go that high
Awful mechanics. Still a big ? if he can actually read a defense. Average speed, but no quickness. But at least he’s got ‘intangibles’ right? He’s a ‘winner.’
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
I like to think though
that recruits recognize the ability Jimbo has for developing them. I feel QB coaching is the one position that we really can hang a hat on as far as coaching goes.
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
Brantley will be the test
Like FSUn said the NFLers knew Tebow couldn’t pass from day one but Brantley is different. He’s supposed to be a passer. If FU can’t mold him into an NFL prospect then the final verdict will be in.
by Jamil Dawson on Feb 10, 2010 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
Am I wrong...
that Lemay won’t want to come to FSU to wait to see PT until 2014 when EJ graduates? It seems like this will happen only if we start winning 10+ games ASAP.
Nothing can stop us....
Christian Ponder winning the Heisman will go a long way in changing this discussion
It won’t change EJ’s position on the depth chart, but will certainly give Lemay a chance to play as a RS Soph
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Feb 10, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Word is that FSU is after Nick Marshall more than Lemay
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure about that
I think it may be we feel we have a better shot with Marshall than Lemay. We have offered Marshall a chance to play basketball, as well.
by basbalstr101 on Feb 10, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
http://elitescoutingservices.com/news/2009/09/13/weekend-recap-first-coast-high-vs-ribault-part-1/
“First Coast coach Marty Lee told the Florida Times Union after a three-touchdown performance by Beverly earlier this season: “Eric is just a phenom. Watching him is like poetry in motion.”
“Once again First Coast is loaded with talent on both sides of the football. The first star we will go over will be Eric Beverly. The 2011 running back had four touchdowns. He is a tough back that near the goal line won’t be denied. He is not a real big back but runs like one. He will lower his shoulder and make a defender pay for trying to tackle him. If there is one thing First Coast needs to do is put the football in his hands. More often than not, Beverly will come up big.”
Looks like the next defensive tackle has been spotted at First Coast also,
“The best recruiting tool a school has is when the kids come back and say how much they are enjoying themselves,” First Coast coach Marty Lee said. “The three boys we have there now are having success and enjoying being part of the program. When a player comes back and tells a younger kid that everything these coaches are telling you is true, that goes a long way, as opposed to saying that they are feeding you a bunch of lines.”
Beverly’s decision to commit to FSU was influenced by the First Coast players who are Seminoles.
“It will be like playing in high school again,” Beverly said. “Jermaine has told me he’s going to be working with me. FSU is the best program for me. I have a great relationship with the coaches and the players.”
Beverly did say he might visit other schools before signing with the Seminoles.
“My options are still open,” Beverly said. “I may set up some visits, but FSU is my main school.”
Beverly might have some company in his class heading to FSU. Defensive tackle Derrick Mitchell is generating heavy interest from the Seminoles. Both his parents attended FSU, with his father playing basketball for the Seminoles.
“Derrick is going to be one of the best linemen in the state next season,” Lee said. “He’s an incredible player and a great athlete. He’s still uncommitted, but FSU has offered him and is the front-runner.”
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
How exactly does it work when we decide not to renew a scholarship for an under achieving athlete?
I was just wondering how this works, how commonplace it is and will it spoil a lot of the in roads we make with schools. I know it has to be done to get to that next level but its a bit cut throat to say the least. It will be an early lesson in life for these kids also, life is not always fair.
Have to consider circumstance
Has the guy ben injured? Has he had a real chance when healthy? What is his attitude?
by Bud Elliott on Feb 10, 2010 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
and by 'disciplinary reasons'
you mean after they were convicted of a felony
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
That's the way it should be.
I mean, you can lose an academic scholarship if your grades are low. Why should atheletics be set in stone?
2010 ~ The Year of the Spear
and how big of a pipeline doss
by Cigar City Nole on Feb 10, 2010 9:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Vince Williams
Does anyone know his status, or is it too early to even project his role on the team?
Beverly is a beast, can’t believe my Fletcher Senators beat FC again this year.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Feb 10, 2010 10:48 AM EST reply actions
Thank goodness!
Now Kendall can go improve his gatorade mixing acumen. Two ‘Mike’ backers over 240 pounds (With Luc obviously), I likes that!
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 10, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
I would not be surprised to see guys change positions.
Kendall might start. All of our player were hurt by poor coaching.
Which defensive players do think will change positions?
Or which defensive players would you like to see change positions, if any? I would like to see how our defense looks with Nigel Bradham at MLB and Kendall Smith moved back to OLB. I know the coaching was poor, but some of the plays I saw Kendall Smith miss were horrendous. I remember in the Miami game, on Miami’s first scoring drive they converted a 4th down. On that play, Kendall Smith shot the gap and had Javarris James in the backfield and completely missed him without Javarris even making a move. Then they scored like 1 or 2 plays later. Against GT, he was unblocked several times and never laid a finger on the ball carrier. I couldn’t believe what I was watching at times. I am not saying this position change should occur. I am just saying I would like to see Stoops give it a look (at least in the spring).
I think he'll go back outside.
Not sure on other moves yet. Excited to see what happens in Spring.
by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
Top knoch
I know we are going to try to stay away from kids with grade issuse best we can but where do players that are 5* with bad grades going to fit. If you can get a kid that is a 5* but not sure we can get him in to we bother. Stars matter in the end and there are some kids that if they say they want to come you dont turn away because they are that damn good.
Also what about JrCo kids. Are we going to see more of them each year. Fisher wants the best to play and getting players like Amp this year is a big deal. Are we going to see more JrCo kids coming in or is that just going to be a quick fix for the next year or 2.
Last are the TE/H-back/FB. Is there a point to get a real FB or are we going to get more TE/H-backs and use them as FB. The only time I see us using a FB is because of a goaline and even then if we have 3-4 TE and or Bigger RB why not just use them and drop the FB pos. all together.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Des, you shipped out yet?
Yes, the fbs are included as H-Backs. We will use some fullback but no much.
We haven’t taken many kids this time with bad grades and I agree we can’t turn away those stars
by Bud Elliott on Feb 10, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
No I dont leave tell 8March
looks like I will be out for 2 weeks before I can get e-net set up and what not.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
prob. dont know how long its going to take to get e-net im my room.
I will be up and running before to long Im sure.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
FSUun is the best
Runs the site like a true politician – Not only does he stay on top of all the issues, but he stays on top of all of his members’ life issues – spot on
A lot of People are bringing up Ty as a possible cut
But what about Pressley? I thought he would be a stud for us but it hasn’t really worked out. Him getting knocked senseless against USF didn’t help either. But yeah, Parks should definitely be on the radar. The safety spots are Harley and Demps’ to lose IMO. Didn’t realize we had so much dead weight at WR and DB
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 10, 2010 11:16 AM EST reply actions
He's a senior this year
Doesn’t help us get under the number for 2011
by Bud Elliott on Feb 10, 2010 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
He can get some carries if anyone in our rotation of four gets hurt I suppose
Has talent it seems, can’t stay on the field
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 10, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
Oh yeah, definitely
He’ll be gone before 2011. Would have probably been gone already if he didn’t shred his knee in ’09
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 10, 2010 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
I see him getting the ball some
JT is the #1 RB but hes not going to run the whole game. Pressley is a good back to go in for a down or 2 to let JT get his air back after a long run or what not.
I hope Jones stays I know some are not big on him but hes a good back for the most part. His condition sucks but hes fast and blocks good enough for us right now I think. Hes like Pressley though and is a good back up or breather for JT.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
Is this assuming lonnie stays at FB?
Lot’s of if’s because we have Smiley now, and thompson should start to get his feet under him
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Will we have an every down back?
And then a normal rotation behind that this year?
At times this year I couldn’t figure out the rotation for why we put in certain backs at points
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
Fisher once led the SEC in rushing w/o having a 550 yard back
The rotation frustrated me as well. I think it will make more sense this year. But we must not underestimate a player’s ability to do something that we think is outside his skillset.
Was that the Vincent, Brossard, and Addai trio?
I resigned myself to having a rotation the day Smiley came aboard.
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 10, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
I think it was the Hester/Williams/Holliday/that other guy
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
I think Gran will do a better job at judging abilities
I think part of the problem this last year is that each back we have is very good at doing lots of different things, so it was hard to see them really shine. I think the subtle things that each back brings to the table will be recognized by Gran.
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
Fisher made FSU the #2 rushing team in the ACC in 2008
without any real dominant back…. (Antone Smith, we miss you!)
http://www.cfbstats.com/2008/leader/821/team/offense/split01/category01/sort01.html
Nothing can stop us....
Me: Bill, am I reading this correctly? The #1 opponent adjusted rushing offense? FSU? Everyone says our rushing was down this year. Wow.
Bill: Just looked it up in the database to make sure — it is indeed correct. Looks like the BYU, NC State and Maryland games were the key ones. That, and playing against the #5 (Florida), #9 (Boston College), #12 (Clemson), #14 (North Carolina), #17 (Miami), #21 (West Virginia), #35 (South Florida), and #37 (BYU) Rushing S&P+ defenses. Shoot me whatever questions you’ve got, and I’ll answer them.
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2010/1/19/1258658/a-final-look-at-the-2009-florida
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
Thanks for Revisiting
That was one comprehensive look at FSU’s offense. Hope Jimbo and Co’s. offense can continue to progress this year. What are your thoughts?
I will not say last year's offense is repeatable until I know Ponder is 100%
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
I remember gran saying that pressley might be the fastest of all the backs
Do we know why he isn’t living up to the hype?
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
uhh..blew out his knee.
Takes more than a year to be a substantial contributor usually after an injury like that.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Feb 10, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Is that really the only reason though?
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
Guess the only way
to find out is see what he does this year. If he is fully healed and doesn’t do anything I’m guessing the injury separated him too much from the game and allowed other younger backs to pass him up. Maybe he impresses this year and lives up to some of that hype he had in JUCO. Time will tell. I honestly don’t see him being a huge part of the offense this year.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Feb 10, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
I remember following his recruitment
I had high hopes for the kid, and I really hope he gets a chance to shine next year. If he can out play them, I wouldn’t mind the other backs sitting for him.
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
He blew his ACL
While some guys can come back from that rather quickly (Jamal Lewis), it is usually a lengthy process and many never recover their prior form.
Very true
General rule: If the player is going to “fully” recover, the most improvement will be 2 years after his surgery.
by Jamil Dawson on Feb 10, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Frank Gore took 3-4 years to regain form.
Best back in Dade County in HS (some say in history), then mediocre college career after ACL injury as freshman, then blew up again in NFL.
Lonnie Pryor
Do you see him getting more carries at RB or does he stay in this hybrid role he played in 2009?
Im interested
to see that also. We are loaded are RB and now we add Smiley. Do you think he will contribute immediatly?
isnt he a bigger back.
If so maybe we will see him go in on short yards. With no FB we could use a bigger back for short yards stuff other than goaline.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
I agree
He is a full grown man and is the first legitimate power back we have had in awhile.
correction: he is a *grown ass man*
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
I like Lonnie the most
out of or RB’s. I hope he doesnt get stuck into a FB/ situational HB. He has great size and speed.
Been watching
Some conditioning drills and believe me those guys are going to be in shape by the fall. Viloria is not messing around. From what I saw yesterday, the was only one guy who couldn’t keep up.
Nick Moody
Why do many believe that he will moved to LB? The kid can play SS. He showed many flashes last seaso, and in my opinion, should have been the full time starter.
We need more size in the front seven
Moody weighed 235 last year and if he’s athletic enough to play Rover, he can surely play the “Will” position. We are evidentally going to a zone pattern reading system on defense. So we need flat out ‘athletes’ in our back four to compliment the size up front. There should be open competition for both safety spots.
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 10, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Moody
is built as an LB where we lack upperclassman depth. But i agree he was certainly a better option than Mangum
My thinking is
with Moody on the weak side, we’ll be 235 (Moody) 240-245 (Luc or Williams) and 240 (Bradham) with our starting linebackers. Our size issues would better remedied that way. Not to mention we get more athletes on the field all at once if Harley, Demps or Parks are the safeties. Moody can work in a rotation with Carr and M. Alexander at WLB. Just like Williams and Luc at MLB.
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 10, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Williams is currently at 250 and Bradham had to try really hard to be 235 last year.
I can’t see Bradham playing at less than 245.
Tools Whore
He's not been dependable
and was often late on plays. He didn’t know the coverages. And he is built like a linebacker.
There are depth issues at LB
He has the size & speed to play LB
Moody played LB some in HS, so the concept is not new.
He could line up at LB, then drop into S coverage giving Stoops options to disguise DB blitzes
You have to find ways to get your best 11 on the field and we have quality depth with guys who can play safety.
Markus White
What do you think about MarKus White? I wathced him in every game last year, and he was out of position on almost every play. He has not lived up to the 5* hype coming out of JC. Does he do better this year under new staff?
I would hope that with some actual coaching that he can finally do a few things here...this is his money year after all.
If White hopes to even sniff the NFL, this is it….do or die for him.
Markus hasn't had any real D1 coaching yet and he's been out of HS 4 years already
Between Juco coaching (which is almost always suspect) and Jody Allen he’s been stunted. It’s kinda sad how these guys got screwed by some on our previous staff. His technique was considered raw coming out of Juco, not a good thing when you’re coming to Tally to be coached by Jody.
dont blame everything on the coaches
At the end of the day White didnt produce as expected. Everette Brown did pretty well despite Jody Allen
If he didn't produce as expected whose fault is it?
Jody recruited him, Jody coached him
When in doubt blame Jody Allen
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
That just means Brown was a stud
Who besides Brown performed well under Allen’s coaching?
by osceolafan850 on Feb 10, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
Everett was a different kind of guy
I was in Sports Officiating class with him my last semester. There were a bunch of football players in the class. EB took things seriously and went about things differently than the others. I guess what I am saying is he was more of a self motivator. If he was coached by anyone he had the drive to make it happen.
Is it safe to say
That FSU could miss out on some prospects because the team is still stuck with some unwanted players from t he previous staff?
I think thats a big no
the idea is that JF is going to get ride of the dead weight and go after players that are a need. Also, is someone dont pan out its a year to year scolly so if we could see more players transfer each year than get let go. I see us sending a lot of people to N bama that dont pan out for us.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
I understand that idea
But will that be executed? In the sense, will FSU really cut/get rid of that many players. I know there are a lot of concerns, like pipelines, etc.
Getting rid of 10 players will be quite the task.
Meyer has been getting rid of them like hot cakes for a long time
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
So if there are players they want
And we can get them to sign, room will be made by cutting the necessary players?
FSUn Question
“Will Jarmon Fortson go pro early? Will attitude concerns see him and FSU go separate ways?”
What have I not heard about? Is he having some problems with his swag or what? I hadn’t heard any mention of problems on Fortson’s part until this article. Please enlighten me.
Go Noles coming from Atlanta!!!
I'm not at liberty to discuss it.
Let’s just say that if you want to pick a favorite player, pick someone else. I feel dirty rooting for J-Man.
That sucks...
I had high hopes for him and I don’t think JF is going to put up with any crap…..
Go Noles coming from Atlanta!!!
If we didn't put up with ANY crap we'd be Navy
It would not surprise me if they told Jarmon “go pro or GTFO” after this year.
well can you say
is it on the field probelms or off the field…
I mean a player isnt bigger than the team but certain things that you can put up with. agree/disagree?
I agree
And both on and off the field problems. But he’s probably th 3rd most talented upperclassman on the team (Bradham, Ponder)
if it happens it happens
I would like to see Fortson contribute his 4 years and he has so much talent, I think we have only seen a glimpse of it. Plus he is the only big physical (6’2’’+) wr that has experience.
I forget which game last year
But I remember Fisher was screaming at Fortson about something headed to the locker room.
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
Is it any surprise that Fortson is the primary receiver that is not getting the most from his abilities?
Everybody else who gets PT plays up to the level of their talent for the most part. Cannot wait to see what Dawsey can do with Green, Shaw, Johnson, and Dent
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 10, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
Even worse you "feel dirty rooting for him"
That sounds really bad. Can this be changed or is it pas and just a matter of time? I am really torn on this one.
Go Noles coming from Atlanta!!!
Avis Commack
Anyone know information about how well he has played the position in the past (high school).
I’ve been really high on Terrance Parks since he committed and I really hope he can get fully healthy and be a big time player
I know he is running track.
Reached the finals and came in 5th recently in the 60m hurdles at the Rod McCravy Memorial T&F Meet in Lexington recently with a 8.19 time.
It’s OK to have some Seniors be backups, provided they play a key rol or are great team guys. But we will not have 21 seniors in 2011.
Avis?
I mean he’s 6’4’’ correct and if he can get to 210+ and depending how well he can play and earns the job, by all means play him
I would like for Commack to pan out if for nothing else to keep up good with FC.
Unfortunately, I don’t think he makes it and I would put $$$ on Alexander leaving.
Go Noles coming from Atlanta!!!
DB class is gonna be crowded
Clinton-Dix needs to be in it. I’m willing to take 6 DB if he is #6.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
No way you pass up someone as talented as he is to take one more OL or one more DL if
They are nowhere near him as a prospect. I understand balancing out the roster and I wish we could transition into taking a balanced recruiting class every year but I am willing to mess things up a bit if it means bringing in a player like Hasean.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
The cut another db you're bringing in. Taking 6 is a disaster.
we can’t continue to ‘F" ourselves where it matters. DB’s are not all that important compared to the important players.
How do you rate the defensive positions?
I have
1. DE
2. S
3. DT
4. CB
5. LB
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
DT
DE
LB
CB
S
You can win with shitty DBs anf great DL but not with great DB and shitty DL.
by Bud Elliott on Feb 10, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You have safety as least important?
I’ve always been of the belief that an impact player at safety has a much bigger impact than at LB or even DT.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
Who are some LB who change the way the offense gameplans?
I can think of a handful of safeties.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
Ray Lewis always had great DT play in front of him
His production has been highly dependent on their ability to occupy linemen.
Bama had a great defense this year without great DB
I will admit that. But most elite defenses I can think of are not like this.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
They had good DBs when they won super bowls
And got in trouble when they routinely let guys go and ended up with guys like Sanders back there.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
Their front-7 won them those super bowls.
They had scrubs who were well coached in the back end. Ty Law was very good though when healthy.
Asante Samuel and Rodney Harrison were pretty good
Lawyer Milloy was meh.
Terrell Buckley was solid.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
He was 30 in 2001
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Asante is paid to read routes and jump them
Not to mirror receivers for extended periods of time. I like the dude but what he does is totally different than what a Champ Bailey or Revis does. He requires a pass rush to get his picks, definitely. Thats why signing in Philly was a good match since the employ a heavy dose of blitzing
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 10, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
CBs weren't elite but there Safety's were outstanding
esp. their fist SB against the Rams
Demarcus Ware
Urlacher from a couple years ago, Patrick Willis, James Harrison
I remember some legendary coach said something like:
I’d rather have an all pro defensive line than Hall of Fame corners.
something like that.
The point is, it all starts with getting to the QB.
Belichek said he would rather have a pro-bowl DT than 2 hall of fame corners.
by Bud Elliott on Feb 10, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think the misconception of the importance of safeties is that you see their play easier in a game than say a DT.
You easily see a big hit over the middle once every 35 plays or so but rarely recognize a DL wearing down an OL, stopping running game or providing pressure to a QB all game long even if there is no sacks.
Right
people who don’t understand the game see the results (pick-6) but not the process (pressure in the QB’s face, or the great leverage used to stop the 1st down run for only 2 yards to set up 2nd and 8)
What about when the QB hangs onto the ball for 7 seconds and takes a sack?
It goes both ways.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
Yea
but I could make the pick
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
nvm read that wrong
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
Not really
because that doesn’t happen. Great DB’s just aren’t that much different than avg DBs but great DL are.
And you don’t need to sub DBs like you do linemen.
Disagree on that
Even with a better pass rush guys like Reid, Mangum and Allen still would have looked terrible in coverage this year.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
I wasn't clear
I’m not saying that there isn’t a greater difference in DL production.
Just that there is a BIG difference with DBs as well.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
P-Rob draft stock took a hit partly due to a lack of a pass rush
He was left exposed way too long
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 10, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
One of the first questions I ask people about FSU is their thoughts on Jenijie
I think you can judge a lot off their response ;)
that or ask them what they thought about the coaching situation
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
Jenije is still not good.
Even if his biggest problem was lack of DL play.
What do you get from my response?
365 days, until I change my ways.
I know, Bud is one of them. The biggest one probably.
I still disagree, and dont like the idea that I don’t know what I’m talking about when it comes to football because of it.
The people I respect the most when it comes to football/player performance agree with me, so there is a contingent of people who know a little about the game and disagree.
365 days, until I change my ways.
I don't think you're judging him correctly
doesn’t mean I think you’re a moron. Either of us could be right.
I will bet you $ he starts though…
I said in chat last night I think he starts.
Doesn’t mean I think he has been good. He can be bad and simltaneously look worse than he is because of the line.
Also, I don’t doubt that he can be good with better coaching.
365 days, until I change my ways.
Sorry, but if I never see Jenije on the field again I'd be fine with it
If Harris,Rhodes, and Reid are our top Corners next year, I’d sleep well. Just way more upside than it is with trotting Jenije out there again. He’d only get in the way of the develpment of more talented kids IMO
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 10, 2010 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
He was not the worst out there
He never made any big plays for us. Coaching or not, if you are good you will make some significant plays somewhere along the line.
Thats usually when a QB holds the ball too long
or his pocket awareness sucks (IE Matt Cassel
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 10, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
So is the QB who throws too early when being pressured
Instead of just throwing it away.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
You're absolutely right
And when the DB gets the INT it’s a direct result of the pressure the front put on the QB.
I believe you build a great D from front to back and inside out. You need talented players at every level but moreso at DL, specifically DT IMO.
by Jamil Dawson on Feb 10, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
This should settle the argument
What position do you see routinely have the most picks in the first and second round. Ill give you a hint its not corner or safety.
First 2 rounds in the last 5 years
2009 – 14 DL and 13 DB
2008 – 11 DL and 12 DB
2007 – 12 DL and 13 DB
2006 – 7 DL and 16 DB
2005 – 8 DL and 16 DB
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
That's +18 DB for those who are anti-addtion
It’s +2 DL in the first round over the same time period. The only year a DB was drafted ahead of a DL was 2005 when Pacman was 6th, TJ was 16th.
by Jamil Dawson on Feb 10, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Looks to me like the trend is changing.
Or is it a talent issue?
Multi RB systems
Just about every team in the NFL has 2 or 3 RBs in their regular rotation thus the increased need for depth at the DL IMO. There are other reasons but that’s numero uno.
by Jamil Dawson on Feb 10, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
Where'd nole24 go?
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
In the first round you had 6 dline men 2 Dbs.
2008 7dline man 5 in the top 10 picks. I will admit that the numbers look closer when I throw in the second round. For the most impactful of players and to make a team better the first round doesnt lie. Also when you look at the top of the draft you normally see bad teams and the clearest way to see what people think will make them better is to see who those teams draft. Ill take my crow for throwing a argument out and not backing it up and explaining it better. I take a slap for that.
Way to take it like a man
It does look like DL are proving to be a more valuable commodity, this year especially.
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
Speaking of DB's v. DL - did you notice Clemson's DL class?
Although we had the much better recruiting class overall, I’m a little concerned that Clemson still pulled some highly rated DT’s where we did not. Although I like our DT’s and think they’re underrated, stars matter.
This is what my ideal DB roster would look like for 2011
Seniors:
Allen
Parks – S
Harris
Juniors:
Reid
Harley – S
Sophomores:
Demps
Rhodes
Joyner
Abram – S
Freshmen:
Brooks
Brutus – S
Smith
Therezie – S
Williams (possible switch to LB/WR)
another recruit
Clinton-Dix
That’s 15/16. I expect to lose 4 from this group (3 seniors + Reid) fur sure, plus potential attrition from guys like Parks and Demps.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
16 is too many. What more important position are you willing to hurt? Many of those guys will never see the field.
Also, no way Reid goes pro early. He’s soo small and will need to prove his consistency with an extra year.
Is 2 too many really a big deal with an 85 man roster?
I would take away from OL. I think our OL coach is good enough that we don’t need the depth other teams do. I know we lose a decent amount with attrition due to Trickett’s coaching but I do not think we need 15 guys at the position. I would be willing to cut it to 13 or 14.
Could also take away a WR, we don’t need 11. I really wish we didn’t take Haggins this year.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
But our OL coach can't prevent injuries to a contact position
DB is not a contact position (fewer injuries).
This football video game mentality that permeates the youth of America creates a de-emphasis on the positions where the game is won (OL and DL), because those positions are not exciting.
We need to have 15 linemen. It creates the consistent rotation ready to take over after another year.
I am not devaluing the importance of OL and DL
I would like to stay at the numbers you have listed. But there is no way we can turn away top flight talent to avoid going one man over the limit on an 85 man roster. Clinton-Dix is too good to be passed up for a 4th OL. I’d say the same thing about passing up a very talented OL if it meant taking a 3rd or 4th DB.
We’ve seen the bad effects of an unbalanced depth chart, but we’ve also seen the faults of a lack of talent. If we were willing to mess with the numbers a bit and took the most talented kids we wouldn’t ever have to start a Mangum or Thacker again.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Who will never play?
In the DB class I posted all of those guys are good enough to play with the possible exception of Brutus.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
you hav3 16 DBs on a roster, someone (many are not gonna play)
You can’t be 4-deep at DB and 3-Deep at DL. It’s just stupid. There’s no need for 16 Dbs.
Would you remove Damien Jacobs in this class for Elam?
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
And it's not crushing the OL depth to take 1 fewer guy
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, it is.
What about the next year? Gonna keep underrecruiting the more important positions then as well?
The state alwas produces stud DBs and WRs, if we miss on Dix we’ll get someone next year.
Then don't take Karlos Williams or Therzie
Your statement by its nature alone is devaluing the importance of the more important positions.
The need for functional depth and discipline.
It is OK to start young DBs it is far worse to start young OL or DL because of the lack of physical maturity they possess. They have to hit people. DBs do not. Because of the high injury/ attrition rate and the need to avoid starting underclasmen along the line, those position are much more important to recruit than DB.
Williams would be a better WR
He is too talented to pass up. If there is a logjam at the position we move him and ignore his whining father.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Drop Williams
Gotta keep Therezie…….kids a beast and plus he can always play offense if it don’t workout on Defense…..
LOL
I know I’ve been on Therezie nuts alot since he was profiled on here…….I’ll blame Tomahawk Nation for that……
It is OK to start young DBs
it is far worse to start young OL or DL because of the lack of physical maturity they possess. They have to hit people. DBs do not. Because of the high injury/ attrition rate and the need to avoid starting underclasmen along the line, those position are much more important to recruit than DB.
Look at the NewYork Giants
This year their DLINE played terrible but everyone was picking on their secondary. The year they won the superbowl their secondary was “Average” at best but their dline (& more importantly depth on dline) was ELITE!
I'm not doubting the importance of DL
I said I thought DE was the most important position and DT 3rd most. However I do not want to take a 3 star DL over a 5 star DB.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
Hah! And I was criticized for making a similar statement.
Regarding UF’s depth at S and how many top projected safeties they were taking this year.
It is
I don’t think any coaches seriously disagree with that. Buil from the isnide out. positions closer to the ball ar always more important than positions farther away.
What would you consider to be the most important thing a defense can do?
I think it is rushing the passer. If you can get a good pass rush with 4 guys, you’re going to stop a lot of offenses. A top notch DE can play the run better than a top notch DT can play the pass.
Look at the impact Everette Brown had. We went from a decent defense to terrible without him. I don’t think Bunkley or Dockett ever had that kind of impact.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
It is stop the inside run
And Pass rush must work inside out (that’s why ours do not work). the best pass rushes start from the inside with pocket push.
Its a 2 way argument
The way I see it is in terms of time a QB has in the pocket to make his drop & read. If we have a dominant/disruptive DT the time it takes to disrupt the pocket is much quicker than the time it takes a DE to go around.
I think you can see the impact Dockett is having with the Cardinals, he is getting his share of the sacks plus he is disruptive inside. Very much like Jay Ratliff of the Cowboys
I can have a great rush with a great DT and avg ends who clean up when the qb is flushed
but with great ends and avg dt, if there is no push the qb can step up
How did Everette have 13 sacks for us in 2008?
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
3 sacks against MD, VT, and Clempson
Also had 2 against Chattanooga.
1 versus Colorado and Wisconsin in bowl game.
No sacks in the other 6 games.
Where's that article about how Maryland gameplanned vs him?
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
That was so dumb
they resufed to double him until it was way too late.
And their qb wouldn’t step up!
Right
and Clemson was on their 3rd string tackle because their starter was hurt and then Hairston got hurt on like the 2nd play
We crushed Turner that entire game. It's remarkable he didn't just quit.
That’s how Mickey used to destroy opposing QB’s when his scheme was relevant. I recall seeing Everette getting sacks from the outside using shoulder dip speed rushes…and while lining up inside and stunting/spinning past the overmatched guards and centers.
first DT here is #40
I understand what you are saying about flushing the QB out of the pocket for the DE’s to clean up but if the impact of a DT on the pass rush is so great wouldn’t at least one in the league be better than #40 in sacks?
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
It's not the sacks per se that you look for in a DT
It’s the penetration in the run game and collapsing of the pocket when defending the pass. It is always better to generate initial pressure up the middle. It shrinks the pocket and doesn’t give the QB an escape outlet. Obstructing his line of sight up the middle of the field is an added bonus.
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 10, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
my understanding is that
very few schemes are set up to achieve favorable one on one matchups for the interior dline. That’s why Warren Sapp was so exceptional for tampa, because the defense was designed to isolate him.
I wish I had a link to the article that I’m thinking of, it was probably one of the best pieces I’ve ever read on different defensive fronts.
Its easy to see what position is more important IMO
You can find good athletes and have them perform in the secondary, and Florida is full of great athletes. It takes a special type of athlete to play in the trenches though.
A)You need to be able to put on weight and still be quick and have stamina. You need to fight through a lot of contact and maintain yourself healthy.
2) You have to go against the biggest guys on the opposing team every snap of the ball.
D) It takes time to develop that kind of player so it is essential to always be over stocked when it comes to linemen. It take a few seasons to get them into the right size and shape and to strengthen them.
A good Athlete can always come in and play early in the secondary and look like an AA if the opposing QB has to fear for his life everytime he drops back to pass. Plus, as GT proved it last year against us, if you don’t have the front 7 to stop the run DB’s might as well not even play because the QB won’t ever have to throw a single pass to beat you, and that is why DT is the most important position in any level of Football.
You must stop the run on first and second down’s to MAKE the other team have to pass the ball or else they will just run you over and DB’s become pointless.
by BS37FSU on Feb 10, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You have to be principled in your approach
you need to be 4-deep at DT and DE before you consider being 4-deep at DB. If you carry more DB and DL you are flat out doing something wrong and it will F you in the arse eventually.
And with that I have to run out
Don’t have more con-contact position players than contact players
Don’t have more players at a position where youth is OK than at a position where youth will kill you.
Don’t have more players at a less important position than the 2 most important defensive positions.
Defensive scheme matters?
Bud, doesnt your argument become more true considering the scheme we are planning to run now? More Zone than man?
To me, Serviceable (3-4* DBs) will work fine (Read: Jenije should do well this year) in a zone scheme whereas we will need good/great DBs in a man scheme.
Plus, the whole argument about pressure becomes super relevant in a zone scheme or else decent QBs will find holes in the zone all day long.
Not a whole lot unless you're running a 4-2-5
But your point about more zone does serve to strengthen the concept of stocking the impact positions.
Don’t have more con-contact position players than contact players
Don’t have more players at a position where youth is OK than at a position where youth will kill you.
Don’t have more players at a less important position than the 2 most important defensive positions.
I can coach up a DB much easier than I can a DL, and my DB won’t get hurt nearly as often as my DL nor need to come out of the game.
Hopefully we havent soured our connections with him
I live in Houston and plan to be there for the Spring game as well as seminole showtime, hopefully it will be better than last years (I was there!) . Having ex-players back on campus does mean a lot for publicity as prospects are visiting at the same time.
Hopefully there will be a TN gathering and it will be nice to put faces to screen names.
Let me know if you know of any seminoles fan around here in Houston. I remember going to sportsbars out here and there are hoards of UF fans blocking a whole section and watching the gators play. WIll be cool to do that for the Noles games.
Hey now
The last several years, I’ve watched FSU games with a (fairly small) collection of FSU fans – in Ohio. (Can’t wait to get back to Florida next year!)
I met some people from Ohio
down here in florida and turned them into FSU fans. I try to establish small fsu contingents around the nation like this
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 10, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
where in ohio? i have a collection of 2 of us in cincinnati.
2010 AD = 1 AB for FSU
Columbus
Our game day group fluctuated from 2-6. Usually about 3. Small, but there ARE Nole fans up here!
Damn!
It’s at least two Gator bars here in San Diego that I know of
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 10, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Just got back from San Diego a couple of weeks ago.
Great town, nice mix of things to do. Thank god I did not happen upon the gator bars…instead found a few Irish pubs and had a great couple of days on the water sailing.
Seminole fan from Houston
but living in Czech republic right now!!!
In 1993
I saw a Seminole sweatshirt in Novgorod, Russia! The next year, I gave a Seminole hat away in Kiew, Ukraine, and a shirt in Odessa. Spread the Noles around the world!
With a coach like Trickett you want him to have all the talent available
If you have injuries there and become short handed Trickett is not being maximized, whether putting players on the field or developing them for next year. The offense begins with the offensive lineman.
Same with the defensive tackle discussion also. Corner backs simply have to do less when you have the big pass rush. A spooked quarterback is much more apt to make that bad throw for an interception. Also one who has been popped pretty hard and out of focus. You don’t get that without the big guys up front.
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
For this spot
another recruit
at Freshman DB, I’m pencilling in Tyler Hunter from Lowndes HS (Greg Reid, Gerald Demps, Telvin Smith).
If we look at 6 DBs as too many, I’d rate Therezie at #6 (on my personal list) of those 6 listed in this post.
I’ve seen you’ve already mentally cut Justin Bright, I’m not sure if he gets cut prior to 2011, but maybe 2012.
I’ll say if Dionte Allen isn’t at least in the 2 deep and getting significant PT, he’s cut prior to 2011 (IMO).
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher
I just saw how far up the ladder TD's post was so I'll include more of it here
Freshmen:
Brooks
Brutus – S
Smith
Therezie – S
Williams (possible switch to LB/WR)
another recruit
Clinton-Dix
The 6 potential DB recruits are in bold. Italics indicate current commit.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher
I heard he is down to 260
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
I've thought he may need to play SDE for 2010 due to our lack of size on the edges
Maybe Cummings can man that spot, but not as a freshman.
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 10, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
that would leave 3 DT's (Jacobbi, Amp, and Moses) plus 2 true freshman who probably aren't ready to play yet
at least if Demonte could get up in the 285-290 range we would have a respectable 2 deep
Thats true, looks like Jacobs is may RS next year along with Cam Erving
We’ll just have to make due until 2011
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 10, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
Where and when, because others claim Demonte has said himself he is nowhere close to that.
365 days, until I change my ways.
I must have missed that part. I remember him saying Cummings was 275.
365 days, until I change my ways.
I'm pretty sure that Odell was talking about Dawkings at 277 not McAllister
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher
Dawkins (sorry for the typo)
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher
Demonte's actual weight and body comp. is the official "2010 FSU Football $64,000 Question"
And it’s not even close.
2011 DLINE Targets
Trying to see who will be our prime targets on the DLINE for 2011
Derrick Mitchell – FSU legacy (Both Parents attended FSU,Dad played BBall)
Ray Drew – Grew up FSU fan, Good friends with McCloud and Smiley.
Who else?
Tim Jernigan- UF lean but the Strong loss really helps us
We also just offered Marquise Wright, a DT from Paramus, NJ (same school as Dan Foose)
by basbalstr101 on Feb 10, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Is he cousins with Vanover and Brien Allen?
I hope he looks at our depth chart.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
Depth chart is what we have got going for us.
UF just signed the best DT class. Why would he want to sit behind other 5* players until hes a junior? Hopefull Odell can get in good with him.
They aren't, I still think he ends up at UF
but anytime that relationship is no longer there, it’s gotta give you some sort of leverage. Of course, we are essentially on the same playing field since we both have new DC’s…actually, has UF named their new DC yet since they lost the guy to the Bills?
by basbalstr101 on Feb 10, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
FSUn Question
Are the needs by position indexed to FSU’s program (e.g., b/c of our O & D schemes, etc.) or are they general, i.e., apply to all college teams?
Nothing can stop us....
Take a look at how Coach Johnson is shaping the roster at GT... incredibly different than traditional pro-style offenses in the ACC
GT has 9 WRs, while FSU carries 14
GT has 17 RBs, while FSU carries 7
BTW- FSUn... I think your article got hijacked...
it’s like when MattDNole posted his Defensive Coordinator Search article…
It was all pretty much on topic
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
by tdchrisdavis on Feb 10, 2010 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
DL and S
OK- who do we have as starters- I read that our safeties will be Harley and Demps. Now some say Harley and Parks. Which one leads? Also- I keep reading that McCallister will possibly start at DE with White with McCray and Mc Daniel at DT- I hear Dawkins will get some DT snaps and no DE snaps. What say you????
In the dynasty era
we rotated the front 7 like whoa. It was a non-stop barrage of fresh players. Granted our 2nd string was better than most other schools first string, but we didn’t really have the luxury of enough players to rotate even bad players in this year.
"Kill a fly with an axe"
I will be amazed if Jacobs takes a red shirt
I don’t see how that could be possible considering lack of depth. I think this was is already close to 300 pounds and was signed to play this year.
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
I hope either Jacobs or Erving can get a RS
But agree that the depth wont allow it. Mccray, Mcdanials, McCloud and Dawkins sounds like a decent 4 man rotation…..JUST STAY HEALTHY!
I with you here
I just don’t think we have the depth to RS either Jacobs or Erving.
I’d also be amazed if we could RS more than 1 LB (and we’d be lucky to do that) simply b/c of the lack of depth. There’s virtually no chance that we have no injuries to the entire LB corps that allows us to RS more than 1 player (if that).
I would really like to RS 2 so that we can have some separation. If we can’t get separation we’re going to have the same LB depth problem in 3 years (and have to cover it over 2 classes in 2012 and 2013) which will mean giving an addition ship or 2 to the LB position rather than at another position (whereever we take that ship from).
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher
A Bobcat? How’d you end up being an FSU fan?
BTW, OU is perhaps the craziest school in the nation. Partying is a major there.
I grew up in Florida and my brother went to FSU.
The parties are just crazy. Especially in the Spring.
Selgy
Awesome
Very glad he could get back close to his family and be where he wanted to be. You’re gonna like him Gahnki
If you hear anything about Prior over the next few years
please give us updates. I think the guy is going to be a stud. I had him pencilled in as Datko’s eventual replacement at LT.
I’m going to make an effort to catch an Ohio game or 2 over the next couple of years for sure to see how he’s doing for himself on the field (when he eventually plays).
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher
You know what? I've just assumed you are in Ohio.
I know you’re a tOSU fan, and since you’ve provided us with a lot of updates on players from Ohio (and the Midwest) I just assumed you are from the area.
If you’re not from Ohio, I apologize.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher
All this talk of weight on the D line.
It takes more than just being a 300 pound fat boy. Freshmen get torn up on the Dline because they are going against strong, big grown men on the other side who know every trick to use.
We better Coach Vil can work wonders early. If you are counting girth alone to turn around the D, we are in for trouble.
BTW – I’m a long time reader of this site. An amazing amount of information. Some strong opinions and some wrong predictions but all in all a wonderful refreshing site.
thanks
It takes more than just being a 300 pound fat boy. Freshmen get torn up on the Dline because they are going against strong, big grown men on the other side who know every trick to use.
1. Correct. You need talented big players.
2. Correct. That’s why yu need waves of Dl ready when a kid flunks out, graduates, leaves early, gets hurt, etc.
3. Welcome
How much more impressive, then,
is McDaniel’s play as a frosh DT? Amongst the conference, I’d give him a C+/B-. I can’t remember the last time a frosh DT played as well as him, though. Factor in that, and no wonder he was a 2nd team Freshman AA.
I liked the fact that he got pissed after getting hurt
I can’t fault Jacobbi for his play. In fact he was one of my favorite players on the D this year. As far as FSUn’s comment about starters on D next year goes, I would be shocked if JM is not in there. He was above average on a bad D-line as a true freshman.
Last year we brought in
5* DT
4* DE/DT
4* DE
2* Hicks who was hut as a senior and dad was NFL lineman.
Thanks for joining and posting
You mind if I ask what are some of the wrong predictions you have noticed?
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
According to the story we'll have 12 ships avail w/o attrition
so the coaches will have to do a lot of work on top of their normal load in evaluating whether or not players have multiple possible positions in the spring and fall of 2010 and the spring of 2011 before making cuts to get us into the 20ish ship area.
The coaches will also have to do a yeoman’s job of perhaps convincing a few players to take a Greyshirt (GS) in order not to miss out on some talented players as with a class as deep as 2011 is, generally the class before and after are not as talented. Obviously there are strengths and weaknesses in every class (eg. 2010 was considered very weak at QB, while 2011 is considered very strong) and as a result I’m glad we capitalized on LB recruiting in 2010 as 2011 doesn’t appear as deep (at least initially) in FL and GA for LBs.
I think GSing players will be very important as we will not be taking a full class neither this year nor next in terms of fall enrollment. Therefore we can do a lot of backcounting and when we hit 2012 recruiting we will still have a lot of room to backcount and make up for any differences there. I’d expect a lot of the GS potential to be on OL and TE recruiting as those are likely the easiest positions to GS. However, on the OL it is a double edged sword as we will likely take a large number of players in each of 2011 and 2012 and we don’t want to continually have to GS OL. So if we do in 2011 and don’t GS OL in 2012 we will essentially have a huge OL class in terms of eligibility and some may not have the luxury of RS once they arrive.
Ok, I’m going to stop typing here as I think I’m starting to go around in circles and hope that this post is still readable (and can be understood).
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher
Great read!
I’m looking forward to the story on our potential targets for 2011. It’s never too early to start talking recruiting!
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