FSU's Academic Fraud Scandal Finally Comes To An End
by FrankDNole on Feb 7, 2010 3:10 PM EST
64 comments
First posted to TN by movinonup.
Close the door. Turn the page. The party's over. The fat lady has sung. Turn off the lights. It's finally over. Finito.
The FSU Athletic Department announced earlier today that they have determined that Florida State University will vacate 12 wins in football, 22 wins in men's basketball, a NCAA post season baseball victory, one national championship in men's track and field, a NCAA tournament victory in women's basketball, as well as other wins in these and several other men's and women's sports.
This vacation-of-wins penalty is the result of the 2006-2007 academic misconduct case that was self-reported to the NCAA by then FSU President T.K. Wetherell, which is believed to have been done in an effort to embarrass then athletic director Dave Hart and as retaliation for rightfully forcing the "resignation" of Jeff Bowden, and which then brought about the subsequent NCAA investigation and sanctions.
The NCAA Committee on Infractions accepted all of FSU's self-imposed penalties of probation and scholarship reductions in the 10 sports in which 61 student-athletes were implicated in the wide spread fraud involving an online Music Appreciation course. In addition to the self-imposed penalties, the NCAA then also ordered that FSU vacate any and all wins in which those student-athletes, which the NCAA deemed ineligible, participated in during that time frame.
Then, FSU's former president decided to further tarnish and further drag through the mud FSU's good name, and keep this unfortunate scandal at the full attention of the national media, by appealing the vacation-of-wins penalty in order to preserve Bobby Bowden's wins and to give him a chance to catch Joe Paterno for the most-football-wins title. A subsequent hearing was then held by Appeals Committee and FSU's appeal was denied and rejected. Pressure from boosters and common sense finally prevailed, and the outgoing president finally did the right thing and let this miserable chapter in FSU history come to a merciful end by not taking this matter any further with legal action in the courts, as he had previously threatened he would do if the appeal was lost.
Since losing the NCAA appeal, the athletic department has been trying to determine in which games the ineligible student-athletes participated and how many wins each of the Florida State sports teams involved would vacate.
It had been estimated that the football team and Bobby Bowden would lose as many as 14 wins, however the final tally has the team and Bowden only losing 12 victories, which in Bowden's case is now a moot point in the most-football-wins race with Paterno.
Listed below is what the FSU Athletic Department determined to be the official count of vacated wins for each sport.
FROM THE 2006-2007 BASEBALL SEASON:
4 victories total consisting of:
-3 Regular Season
-1 NCAA Post Season
FROM THE 2006-2007 MEN’S BASKETBALL SEASON:
22 victories total consisting of:
-19 Regular Season
-1 ACC Tournament
-2 NIT Post Season
FROM THE 2006-2007 WOMEN’S BASKETBALL SEASON:
16 victories consisting of:
-13 Regular Season
-1 ACC Tournament
-2 NCAA Post Season
-AND FROM THE 2007-2008 WOMEN’S BASKETBALL SEASON:
-6 Regular Season victories
FROM MEN’S CROSS COUNTRY:
-2006 ACC Championship – 2nd Place to 3rd Place
-2006 NCAA Regional – 1st Place to 2nd Place
-2006 NCAA Championship – Maintain 30th Place
-2007 ACC Championship – 3rd Place to 6th Place
-2007 NCAA Regional – 2nd Place to 4th Place
-2007 NCAA Championship – 20th Place to 25th Place
FROM WOMEN’S CROSS COUNTRY:
-2006 No Adjustments
-2007 ACC Championship – Maintain Championship
-2007 NCAA Regional – Maintain Championship
-2007 NCAA Championship – 3rd to 4th Place
FROM THE 2006-2007 FOOTBALL SEASON:
5 victories consisting of:
-4 Regular Season
-1 Emerald Bowl Championship
-AND FROM THE 2007-2008 FOOTBALL SEASON:
-7 Regular Season victories
FROM MEN’S GOLF:
-No 2007 Regular Season Tournaments Won – No Wins Vacated
-2007 ACC Championship – 4th place to 6th place
-2007 NCAA Regional – 5th place to 8th place
-2007 NCAA Championship – 13th place to 15th Place
FROM THE 2006-2007 WOMEN’S SOFTBALL SEASON:
32 victories consisting of :
-30 Regular Season
-2 ACC Tournament
FROM MEN’S SWIMMING AND DIVING:
-2007 ACC Championship – Maintain 1st Place
-2007 NCAA Championship – Maintain 17th Place
FROM WOMEN’S SWIMMING AND DIVING:
-2007 ACC Championship – Maintain 2nd Place
-2007 NCAA Championship – 17th place to 26th place
FROM MEN’S INDOOR TRACK AND FIELD:
-2007 ACC Championship – Maintain Championship
-2007 NCAA Championship – 2nd Place to 4th Place
FROM WOMEN’S INDOOR TRACK AND FIELD:
-2007 ACC Championship – 4th Place to 7th Place
-2007 NCAA Championship – Maintain 30th Place
FROM MEN’S OUTDOOR TRACK AND FIELD:
-2007 ACC Championship – Maintain Championship
-2007 NCAA Regional – Maintain 1st Place
-2007 NCAA Championship – 1ST place to 2nd Place
FROM WOMEN’S OUTDOOR TRACK AND FIELD:
-2007 ACC Championship – Maintain 3rd Place
-2007 NCAA Regional – 5th place to 6th place
-2007 NCAA Championship – Maintain 14th Place
TGIO=THANK GOD IT'S OVER
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But it's not over
This is going to come up every time an announcer or writer talks about anyone’s streak of winning seasons and bowl appearances…i.e., “JimBob U is starting the season with the record for consecutive bowl appearances. Florida State would hold the record but had to vacate wins as part of the academic scandal.” Every discussion of Paterno’s win record will also contain a Bowden footnote. Brace yourself.
its doesn't say we have to give up the appearance. just the championship. (Emerald Bowl)
NCAA sucks.
2010 AD = 1 AB for FSU
movinonup, I was writing this as you posted you fanpost. I deleted yours since it only listed the vacated wins which are duplicated in this post, but I gave you credit for being first on the first line of this story.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
this is really unfortunate
If I understand the course of events correctly, it would seem that the NCAA is sending the wrong message. Again, this is only my understanding, but didn’t FSU report the violations themselves? I’m not saying that cheating under any circumstance is OK, but this whole ordeal just seemed to me to look like a deterrent for schools in the future to report their own violations…It will also be unfairly associated with Bowden, and that man was about as honest as they come.
Honest?
That’s funny. If being ignorant is being honest.
No, I would not say Bowden was ignorant, but he made darned sure that someone else had his hands in the muck and he didn’t want anything to do with it.
When you go on national TV and say that you aren’t sending home your prized kicker because of “polish rules” or whatever that joke was, you are damned not an honest man.
A cordial man, a funny man, but sure as hell not an honest man. Honest men don’t coach football.
I'll probably
remind you of that, next time a Bash Meyer topic begins…
“When you go on national TV and say that you aren’t sending home your prized kicker because of "polish rules" or whatever that joke was, you are damned not an honest man.”
Huh? How was that not honest? Did he say that a curfew breaker would be sent home?
And thats it…30-something years of coaching and your example of Coach Bowden not being “honest” is that he didn’t suspend the kicker for breaking curfew.
The man’s gone…he has his flaws, but don’t start with this BS character assassination.
Gripper
Is this the last year of our self-imposed probation for football?
I think this is the third year. After this season can we go back to the normal number of scholarships.
I am lodging the actions of the T.K. administration in this case under the "Right Idea
for the Wrong Reasons" category. I do concur with FrankDNole that T.K.‘s fight was due in large part to his attempt to save Bobby’s precious wins. On the other hand, the NCAA is a truly reprehensible organization which I place just below the IRS and a short list of other government entities when ranking said entities according to the frequency of pointless “prosecutions” which seek to impose penalties that are at best tangentially related to the supposed infraction, and at worst penalties that actually AVOID penalizing the “infractor.” As best as I can tell, the NCAA takes on these cases simply for reasons of self-importance. The schools’s fight was at least helpful in pointing this out.
As for me, I am going to scour the internet and try to find a Seminoles’ t-shirt that proclaims our three straight NCAA Track-and-Field titles. I will pay any price.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
just go
on down to the mall, and have a silk screen made up. Then sell them online…i expect a cut if this becomes a wildly successful enterprise.
or you
could just continue the extremely played out and cliche practice of switching the F and the first letter of the group/team/whatever you hate “Nuck the FCAA”…never mind. Ignore me
while the "F Switch" practice is played out. That fact is more than compensated for
by the actual truth of the statement when referring to the NCAA, an organization that just HAD to get to the bottom of who had the temerity to give Curtis Enis a suit when he showed up at the Heismann Trophy Presentation some years ago. I mean, hey, it could have been some agent, and that would have ruined the non-commercial nature of college athletics.
By the way, does anyone happen to know what flavor gatorade the Colts use? A certain internet site which I shall not mention has the winning head coach of The Big Game being dumped with “yellow” gatorade as odds-on favorite at 1-1. HOWEVER, “lime green” is at 8-1, and I think that is a definite value bet.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
Not that I promote gambling
but I think they use yellow. I saw a site that gave 5/6 odds on yellow. Red and blue were each 8/1, orange 4/1, clear/water 3/2, and lime green 11/2. If I were to bet, and of course I don’t, I would’ve gone with red.
by FloridaStateJay on Feb 7, 2010 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
TK SCREWED FSU because he wanted Hart gone...
that is what this WHOLE incident was about.
He could donate $50 Million to FSU and it wouldn’t make up for the BS he caused FSU here (his $7 Million donation wasn’t enough). He should be erased from FSU’s history books.
His name is on the stadium????
Have I missed a addition to the stadium? Where is T.K. Wetherell’s name on the stadium?
The side of the stadium with the luxury boxes has lettering that reads “TK Wetherell Building.” It’s near the statue of the Seminole family I believe.
If I’m remembering correctly, t for many years that was the only lettering of any kind that appeared on the stadium. A novice fan may have assumed the whole place was named after him. Ridiculous.
Thanks for the picture.
The picture made me remember now….now I know what Loesche’s talking about. And you’re right, its been there since the completion of the “new” stadium.
7M gets your name on the Stadium
PERIOD
Well, gosh, it's a weight off of everybody. I think everybody that is an FSU fan or a coach or a player, this takes a weight off the shoulder. But what does that mean? Seven more days of peace?
by stevegrizzle on Feb 8, 2010 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
Vacating wins is stupid.
So, say it’s discovered UF had an ineligible player (or two, three, etc.) participate in the 2008 season’s BCS NCG, and is forced to vacate the win. Who’s touted as the national champ? The team that LOST the game? They don’t receive the win via forfeit, remember. Hmm.
Plus, coaches CAN NOT sit players who are not KNOWN to be ineligible. If our coaches knew the players had participated in academic fraud, then we should forfeit those games. If they didn’t know, why would they sit an otherwise “eligible” (to their knowledge) player? Perhaps coaches should stop substituting players so often, in order to minimize the chance of unknowingly subjecting the team to the possibility of vacating wins… of course, doing that may lead to injuries to the overused players (and it certainly wouldn’t help the development of young players). Hmm.
The scholarship reductions are fine. The players involved should also be punished (e.g., revocation of scholarship, revocation of degree, heck fine their butts, etc.), and of course any employee who knew about it should be fired (if any are left). But vacating wins is stupid; in the long run it will wreck havoc on the NCAA’s “record books.” Anyway, I yawn in the NCAA’s general direction.
I was just about to say something similar.
I would like to see the NCAA be uniform in it’s application of this punishment now. If, say, Reggie Bush were determined to have received payments while at USC and that makes him ineligible, I hope the NCAA is willing to take equivalent action against USC (not that I hold anything against USC, just that I’d like to see the vacation of wins penalty be applied as the standard – as terrible a standard as it is – since they’ve levied it against my beloved university).
I’m curious, what are all the criteria that establish eligibility in college sports? Does receiving payments make a player ineligible? Does criminal action? Etc.
Cheers to it being over! I have a lot of bloody mary mix left to be had.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
er, a responsible amount of bloody mary mix left to be had.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
OK OVER. Moving on. Next up for Mongol Horde that is the NCAA:
the USC program. There will be blood……
"You're either carrying a spear, or running from it"
by BigSpearDiplomacy on Feb 7, 2010 5:09 PM EST reply actions
oh, how I would love to see that program go down, taking their douchebag coach with it.
There is no way to peace; peace is the way.
Why?
Right now they are one of the few premier programs taking attention off UF. Let USC continue to shine until UF’s heyday is over.
LOL - seems the writer is taking it personal..
Pressure from boosters and common sense finally prevailed, and the outgoing president finally did the right thing and let this miserable chapter in FSU history come to a merciful end
well written!!
wow
This vacation-of-wins penalty is the result of the 2006-2007 academic misconduct case that was self-reported to the NCAA by then FSU President T.K. Wetherell, which is believed to have been done in an effort to embarrass then athletic director Dave Hart and as retaliation for rightfully forcing the “resignation” of Jeff Bowden, and which then brought about the subsequent NCAA investigation and sanctions.
if true, this has to be the most ridiculous thing in the history of college sports
It is true, and a huge portion of FSU fans supported it...
because TK ‘is one of us’……and he screwed FSU royally.
I don't buy it
The idea that FSU would have otherwise tried to cover up a widespread and well known cheating “scandal” is unthinkable. It no doubt would have resulted in even tougher penalties WHEN (not if) the NCAA eventually and undoubtedly found out. TK might have enjoyed taking advantage of the situation to get rid of Hart (who had more class and talent than anyone involved in the administration)…but I sure hope that wasn’t the ONLY reason they told the NCAA. They had to.
I regret the loss of the Track Championship.
National Championships don’t grow on trees.
everyone does...
CAn we be allowed to cuss just this one time!!
by Mr. Seminole on Feb 7, 2010 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
The only thing I care about now is how this affects
the bowl appearance streak and the consecutive winning seasons streak.
Could someone clarify this for me? I know at the end of the day you can say “Well we DID appear in a bowl and DID have winning seasons, regardless of anything done retroactively.”
But how will the media refer to this? What is the precedent for this sort of thing? Can we still claim these two things?
Its a stupid punishment
But I am glade it is finally over. There was absolutely no reason for it to drag on as long as it did.
F the NCAA.
Congrats UCLA for getting your a$$ whipped and being awarded with the win 3 seasons later. F the PAC-10 too!!
He bleeds Garnet and Gold, She bleeds Crimson and White. AND THEY BOTH HATE ORANGE! GO NOLES!! ROLL TIDE!!
by gonolesrolltide on Feb 8, 2010 10:16 AM EST reply actions
Doesnt work like that.
UCLA’s record still contains a Loss on that game and they are not awarded the Bowl win even though FSU has to vacate that win. The National Championship from our Track team is vacated, but it is not awarded to another team.
A) Vacating of wins. All that practically means is those games are vacated. In other words its as if FSU never played those games at all. Opposing team records are not changed and therefore their records still reflect a Loss to FSU. So technically speaking, our 33 year win streak is still intact. It can not be reflected on our own records, however the records of FSU victories still exits on our opponents official records.
B) Forfeiting of wins: Under the old NCAA policy, had FSU been required to Forfeit wins, then our records would be changed from Wins to Losses and opponents records would be changed from Losses to Wins. Fortunately the forfeiture policy was thrown out several years ago.
The old NCAA policy was Forfeiture of wins during the regular season and Vacating of wins during the post season. However this is no longer the case. Its all vacating of wins now.—-
So fret not boys, FSU is still in good shape. Our wins are still Officially logged in our opponents official records. Just not ours. The vacating of wins is purely punitive and not really all that harsh. Now had FSU had to forfeit those wins……. I’d drive a Uhaul truck filled with explosives right in the NCAA headquarters lobby.
For the record...
To those of you who are taking shots at T.K.- you are clueless. He has done more for the program than anyone of us will ever do, combined. It’s easy to be critical of leadership from the cozy confines of your keyboard. I challenge you to put your resumes up against a guy who played football for Bobby Bowden, is a hugely successful and loyal alum, is a leader in Florida’s Education system, served in the legislature, served as Speaker of the Florida House of Representatives during which he got the funding for the HUGE overhaul of Doak Campbell Stadium, and has since served as President of Florida State University.
Respectful criticism is always reasonable in an open forum, but don’t call yourselves fans and then come on here and bash TK Wetherell- you must be out of your minds.
What about what he has done for the actual education system at the university
Terrible job at fundraising on an academic level which is what his primary function as University President should be.
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
you are right...
In 2006 FSU set a fundraising record, collecting $113 million from private donors from July 2005 through June 2006. That exceeded FSU’s previous record: $95 million in fiscal year 2002. And it came on the heels of the FSU CONNECT five-year campaign that raised $630 million by the end of 2005.
TK took the presidency in 2003 and raised over $500M in 6 years on the job. He also got the $40+ Million it took to upgrade the stadium when he was Speaker. And he has signed over the rights to his personal house and property, worth over $8 Million to FSU.
I guess if we redefine terrible, you’d be dead on.
How does he compare on a National level?
That would be terrible, our national ranking went down from the time he started to the time he left.
Please refer to this recent conversation that we had.
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2010/1/31/1286436/fsu-doesnt-have-the-money-of-the
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
For the record...
I have read your multiple comments and I really have no problem with anything you have said, repeatedly, about what a good fundraiser and some of the positive changes T.K. made during his tenure. I will even go as far to say you make some good points and I would probably agree that T.K. did well in ALMOST all areas.
If by some chance this comment is directed at me, then I do have a response.
To those of you who are taking shots at T.K.- you are clueless.
Just in case it is directed at me, I might suggest with all due respect, that you sir are the one that is clueless if you disagree with anything I wrote in my post. I don’t believe I took any shots at Wetherell in my story, rather I simply stated facts that were warranted in describing what a long, miserable road it has been, and how Wetherell’s poor decision making, in regards to those events, caused, aggravated, and prolonged this scandal. If you feel differently, I would like to hear your opinion.
The one area T.K. failed miserably was in his need to micromanage the Athletic Department, specifically the football program, by having to be totally involved, and putting his fingerprints all over it. Maybe he felt that as a former Bowden football player, he knew what was best, and that is why he was so hands-on. I don’t know. I don’t care. He was Bowden’s lap dog, right up until the very end when he had no choice but to offer him a chance to coach next year in a reduced role, which Bowden refused to agree to, thankfully.
Now if I misunderstood and your comments were directed at some of the other members who posted their opinions about Wetherell, well then proceed, those of you involved can carry on your debate and defend your own positions on T.K. without my help, I’m sure.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
taking shots
you are right, i was referring to those, like below, who are simply trashing his existence. Aside from the lap dog comment (you try standing up to Bobby Bowden within a decade of him winning his second NC), you were very respectful and I wasn’t calling you clueless.
clueless is below at 1:26pm.
TK was an awful president
His resume while PREZ is weak. TK inherited a great opportunity from D’Alemberte. TK did almost nothing except watch everything be built (that had been proposed/developed/funded BEFORE he moved into Westcott). TK did help oversee the destruction of the football program…off-the-field incidents and scandals….the Chiro College fiasco….no growth in the med school beying its original WEAK scope….no changes in the terrible engineering school…etc.
TK is a good man and a big FSU supporter. That doesn’t mean he should have been prez. It was a disaster.
and to the king of folklore and mythology
give it a rest… you are right the guy is a good man, and a big FSU supporter.
?
Give it a rest? Why…because you can’t make a valid counter-point?
Even if accepted that string as DOCTRINE...
I would be, at the very least, willing to say he was “average” at fundraising. But the size of the endowment as it compares to other University’s endowments does not reflect the full scope of fundraising success. Consider under President Wetherell, FSU started a Medical School, added the Applied Superconductivity Center to its existing National High Magnetic Field laboratory, cracked the top 50 law schools, and spent over $800 million in construction of new facilities and buildings… a figure which most of the 130+ schools with larger endowments certainly have not matched. The amount of cash in your endowment is an important metric, but highlighting that ours remained equally competitive while the University undertook huge expansion efforts is hardly the ammo you need to render his presidency as terrible.
Terrible is simply a poor terminology with which to categorize his fundraising or his time as President.
The fact still remains that people want to vilify TK, or bash his contribution to FSU and that, my friend, is simply not a prudent exercise. If we were to rank our contributors, TK would be near the top of the list. As Seminoles, we could certainly populate a list of people for whom we share disdain, but I digress even there… we have much to celebrate as students, alums, fans, or witnesses. FSU is a great University and our Football program is on the rise.
Our football program is on the rise
Because we’re getting rid of the backwoods, old-boy network that was in place throughout his presidency. I have mixed feelings towards TK, and I think he did some good things. In fairness to him, it was always going to be a tough task to justify the hire from TCC over the guy from Stanford. That being said, I’m certainly not upset that he’s on his way out.
>>---l>
let me help you...
The reason the trustees hired him to run FSU was due to his success at TCC. TCC was an absolute joke of a CC before he took the reigns. Moreover, the trustees were aware that the legislature had predominantly been dominated by UF grads who were notorious for funneling state dollars to UF in numbers exponentially greater than other State Universities. They needed his public profile, fundraising skills, and political prowess to get FSU closer to UF on state funding and alumni involvement.
Where your logic fails; the football programs rise is not due to overthrowing a “backwoods” regime. It is due to the much needed and latent departure of Bowden and Co. (orchestrated by TK) and the strategic installation of a new and exciting Head Coach (orchestrated by TK). Furthermore, it is that new Head Coach (hired by TK 4 years ago) who, along with his new staff, has morphed the operation into a 21st century program nearly overnight.
And since you believe the program is on the rise, you must agree that Fisher is the main driver behind that change. And in response to your “backwoods” comment, I suggest to you that Bowden, TK and Jimbo come from very similar beginnings and share nearly identical cultural, spiritual and philosophical leanings… The “backwoods”, as you so succinctly put it, is not a fading crony-ism embraced by the old-guard, but rather a culturally rooted social phenomenon which, by the way, happens to be the predominant experience shared by the vast majority of FSU faithful.
And it was certainly time for him to go, he agrees. Those six years were a needed shot in the arm for the University academically, politically, and publicly. And now, the new President inherits a University much more robust in every facet of it’s operation and profile, and has the foundation on which to take FSU to that next level. I think it’s fair to say TK left him an opportunity to do that and more.
Thanks for the help
I’m aware of his accomplishments that you hold in such high regard. I’m also aware of his failures. It has been pointed out to you that he was sub-par in his academic fundraising capabilities. His handling of Dave Hart and this most recent scandal was shameful, and his meddling in the football program was far too pronounced. While I agree that he did accomplish some positive things for FSU, please excuse me if my enthusiasm for his presidential term is somewhat lagging behind yours.
If you think that Jimbo Fisher is going to run a program like Bobby Bowden did, then you are sorely mistaken. As we’ve said on numerous occasions, Jimbo is looking to make this a Nick Saban-like, SEC organizational structure of a program as opposed to the patrimonial organization Bowden ran. FSU football will be a business. Hires will be made on qualification in this regime. For too long, Bowden’s cronyism has gripped the football program, and it was aided by the actions of TK Wetherell. Jimbo, TK, and Bobby may be from the same cultural background, but the casual observer won’t be able to tell after long.
TK did orchestrate Jimbo’s ascension to the head coaching throne at FSU. TK did not do this on his own volition. After years of being far too involved in the program to protect his friend Bowden, he buckled under the pressure of the higher ups. For that I commend him. He finally stood up to Bobby (sort of), and for that we’re all thankful.
>>---l>
I beat you by 2 minutes, but I like the way you expressed the same basic message better. You sir, have more patience than I do.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
My pleasure
First let me say that I appreciate the dialogue and your willingness to get granular. We will be here forever if we continue to do the back and forth, I was simply trying to defend someone whom I believe has served our state and university with distinction from a group of individuals who were making him seem like an enemy. I would hope that at the very least, we could agree that TK is certainly not that.
But I do find it odd that people build up this level of hatred for leaders. It’s easy to criticize those in power when they have shortcomings, or failures even. But there are very few who work hard enough, smart enough, long enough to reach that level of service and it is too bad that we are so quick to forget their contributions in favor of their perceived shortcomings. Especially when an intelligent case can be made for their achievements.
Its really a phenomenon which is prevalent in politics… once someone has formed a favorable or unfavorable position about a politician, for any reason, they are completely unwilling to accept any evidence to the contrary.
Either way, DK you are great for engaging in the discussion and you have certainly made some valid points. At least we know we share this; we’re excited about the Jimbo era, excited about the Barron Presidency and ready to move forward.
Bernie and Talbot....
…brought FSU to the next level. Not TK…who INHERITED great things from them. TK was a great Legislator for FSU…but an awful Prez. I’m not sure you understand that all of the nice new programs and bricks & motor that went up over the past few years…were NOT developed under TK’s watch. It was inhertited. There is almost nothing on the table. FSU hasn’t had a big legislative win since Sandy D was Prez.
If you're impling...
that FSU was somehow in better shape (compared to our peers)…in reality or perception…in the late 2000s…than the early 2000s….I don’t know what to say. The reality is that FSU was LOADING up on new programs, projects and buildings under Sandy D (med school, biologiy, chemistry, psychology, etc). Under TK…almost nothing was developed. The cupboard is pretty bare right now.
How TK didn’t take advantage of expanding our med school’s very limited mission whatsoever…and meanwhile saw UCF and FIU BOTH win new, traditional med schools with much more depth and scope…is a big mystery. FSU COM is very likely destined to be eternally in 5th or 6th place among the State of Fla med schools…even though it started 10 years later than 2 of them.
Regarding our football program…i think enough has been said.
FSU T&F coach breaks his silence re the cheating scandal
Good piece: http://www.tallahassee.com/article/20100209/FSU09/2090317/1008/FSU
I thought his suggestion to simply fail the kids who cheated and fire the staff implicated would have been an appropriate punishment.
Nothing can stop us....
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