Florida State Dominating The ACC in Recruiting
by Bud Elliott on Feb 8, 2010 1:11 AM EST
in FSU Football Recruiting
657 comments
I've thought for a while that Florida State will soon dominate the ACC in recruiting. And I don't mean the "let's take these highly rated kids who have no shot of qualifying or staying out of prison so that we can pump our national ranking" method. I mean getting the best players who will make a big impact on the field. That time is now. Other ACC writers have noticed:
Clemson travels to Tallahassee to face the ‘Noles. Jimbo Fisher has not messed around down there. He has their offense rocking and rolling fixing the Jeff Bowden debacle with authority. With all the controversy and drama gone, I really expect this team to be improved overall since last year. Also, there is no way that FSU is really that bad on defense, and will be improved there this season. I think the ACC needs to watch out because it looks like Jimbo is moving in the right direction both offensively and on the recruiting trail. These improvements coupled with the fact that their defensive effort cannot get any worse leads me to believe FSU is poised for great things over the next few years and will defeat Clemson this season.-- ShakinTheSouthland.com (Clemson site)
We already know FSU snagged 8 ESPNU150 players while the rest of the ACC landed 9 combined. That's pretty impressive. I find looking at the top 6 ACC classes in chart form to be very helpful. The players below are ranked by Rivals.com rating (6.1 is a 5* player, 6.0-5.8 is a 4*, 5.7-5.5 is a 3*, and 5.4 or less is a 2*). I used Rivals.com and not ESPN because ESPN refuses to rate Junior College players. The teams are ordered by their average star ranking.
(Click to Enlarge)
If you don't think recruiting rankings matter, well, you're wrong. Sleepers don't turn into studs as often as 5* players. As that link shows, they are far less likely.
The thing that strikes me is not that FSU signed more 4 & 5* players than any other team. They did. No, what strikes me is the bottom of FSU's recruiting class. FSU took 1 player rated 5.5 or less (JUCO DT Amp McCloud). Clemson took 4. Virginia Tech took 6. Miami took 8!
FSU didn't take filler players. Doctors get to bury their mistakes. Coaches have to feed theirs for 4 years. Florida State is creating functional depth. And while Miami might get a star or two our of their lower ranked players, we know for a fact that lower rated players are significantly less likely to become star players. FSU's bottom 10 players have a much better chance of becoming good players than do the bottom 10 players of the other classes. That's significant. We're talking about 40% of a class.
Every team will get a few highly rated kids. Where FSU will begin to separate itself is by having a much better bottom 10 players than the other teams in the conference on a yearly basis. And when a team's bottom 10 players would make up a solid base for other classes in the confrence, those teams are going to get dominated.
Inside, find our answers to the ACC recruiting round table!
Who is your prized prospect?
Lamarcus Joyner (5*) and Christian Jones (5*).
How does your fanbase react to recruiting? Or do they just want to see results no matter the star count?
Being a football fanbase (not like most of the Carolina schools), Florida State fans follow recruiting. They realize that results don't come without recruiting. Sure, a smaller school could win the Atlantic when FSU was screwing around with a joke of a coaching staff, but recruiting matters.
Who is the next calvin johnson or philip rivers in this year's crop of acc recruits?
I don't see any great QB's in this class. As for the next Calvin Johnson, the only two elite-level skill position guys I see this year are Martavis Bryant and Christian Green.
Have any recent coaching changes affected your team's recruiting class (eg kiffin to usc)?
Yes, Florida State went from unarguably the worst coaching staff in the league to arguably the best. FSU's recruiting was ranked 39th the day Bowden retired, and finished 6th on ESPN and 10th on Rivals.com, the ACC's best.
Who do you all think have assembled the strongest recruiting class, taking into account not just rankings but the needs each one has filled?
FSU is the undisputed recruiting champion this year. Clemson, who (along with Miami) was the top recruiting team in 2006-2008 has the #2 class. Then there is a considerable jump to the next level. I am impressed with what Maryland did considering the talent base in that area. I feel the need to evaluate Georgia Tech based on only their defensive recruits, and they grabbed 4 or 5 4* defenders. Miami's class is garbage and that staff has given up. Luckily, the Canes don't have the money to fire Shannon. Miami's native son is running that program into the Gulf.
How do you all see ACC schools competing with schools in the SEC and Big 12 for recruits?
The ACC as a whole doesn't compete with the SEC for recruits. But the Big 12 is a two-team league and is on par with the ACC.
| SEC | ACC | BIG IIX |
| 1. Florida | ||
| 2. Texas | ||
| 3. Auburn | ||
| 5. Alabama | ||
| 6. LSU | ||
| 7. Oklahoma | ||
| 9. Tennessee | ||
| 10. Florida State | ||
| 15. Texas A&M | ||
| 16. Georgia | ||
| 17. Ole Miss | ||
| 18. Clemson | ||
| 21. Missouri | ||
| 22. Virginia Tech | ||
| 23. Nebraska | ||
| 24. Miami | ||
| 25. South Carolina |
It should be noted that ESPN likes the ACC a lot more than the Big 12, but since I used Rivals.com rankings in the first chart, I stayed consistent here.
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Yes!
You’re only as strong as your weakest link so to speak(even though i don’t really think we have any weak links in our class) This is how we used to beat people. our backups were as good as the starters. In the 4th qtr we start roasting people.
I agree
That the time is now for FSU football. The ACC is vastly improved over the 90s version, but a 90s-style FSU would still win the majority of its games in today’s ACC. And I believe Jimbo and his coaches/players will soon get us to the point of winning 10+ games every year. Once we have some on-field results, I expect our recruiting to return to SEC-like levels. In 2-3 years, due to our strength relative to our conference, we could be poised to play for the MNC more frequently than our primary in-state rival.
The main question is, once we regain it, can we maintain it? Others here know far more about FSU’s finances than I do, but my impression is that we don’t have near as much money as some other area schools. Will we be able to hold onto Jimbo and a highly-competent staff if they start having 90s-like success? When we do lose coaches, will we be able to hire excellent replacements? Etc. With Jimbo at the helm, I feel confident – but what if he leaves? I fear a Zook could do much harm to us.
But, for now, I see a steady FSU rise to power. Next season should show signs of improvement (how much based mostly on the defense and Ponder’s health; btw, I understand Jimbo’s refusal to equate wins with improvement, but unfortunately recruits will often look at the Ws). The following season may be limited only by EJ’s first full season as a starter. The year after that, assuming EJ stays, the sky should be the limit. Thinking about all this… I can’t wait for next season.
As long as he’s properly compensated, I can’t really imagine Jimbo leaving us for another program. Florida State is one of those few “it” programs coaches aspire to be at (Thanks to BB). My concern is keeping the assistant coaches long enough. You cannot hold onto them forever as they need to do what’s right for them and continue to pursue their career goal of being an HC, but going to FSU in the Jeff Bowden era, you see how much the rest of the staff matters. That said, given the way he built this staff, when someone of importance does leave, I have full confidence in Jimbo being able to find a suitable replacement.
I disagree
I think we’re a top of the 3rd tier program.. I expect to lose Jimbo to LSU and for UGA to hire a great coach like Smart or Muschamp, choking off our south georgia recruiting grounds. We simply don’t have the money, tradition, fan support, etc.
You really are the most pessimistic guy around.
What teams are in the top 2 tiers?
Boy no kidding!
I don’t think FSU will EVER play second fiddle to LSU. I could see Coach Fisher leaving for NFL before LSU. Now, I do take what you say seriously since you are generally right but this all seems a bit dark.
I'll let him defend himself, but FSUn is focused on money.
LSU, and just about every other SEC team, flat out kills FSU in athletic revenues, status quo, due to better home attendance (ticket sales), booster contribution, and the SEC’s ESPN contracts.
If we’re discussing strictly in terms of cash on hand, LSU could afford to pay Jimbo more than we could. There’s no argument. But I think there’s reason to believe the Jimbo-FSU marriage might have some elements to make it last a little longer than FSUn seemingly is predicting.
He has also mentioned that LSU has its whole state to itself.
I do disagree though, I do think we will pony up and pay the man whatever he wants. The only way we lose him is if he goes to the pro ranks.
If he wins the ACC in his first 2 or 3 years, I completely agree.
I do think we will pony up and pay the man whatever he wants. The only way we lose him is if he goes to the pro ranks.
What if another school is offering equal pay
And considerably more program investment? Aside from salary, those indirect program investments might be something another program can offer that would make them a more attractive option.
Agree that we’d match pretty much whatever another school might offer. Whether he leaps boils down to whether he views those peripheral things as significant enough to outweigh our offer.
I'm talking about facilities, support staff, infrastructure, etc.
That’s where the price tag could get less palatable for FSU, versus one of the higher resource programs.
I fully believe that
FSU will improve his contract as our national status improves. Booster giving is already up, and I think a great deal of funds will come from there quite easily once we start playing better with greater concistancy. IMO, I think this was a “starter” contract for Coach Fisher, and he’ll get steps up with every ACC/BCS winning season.
I bleed Garnet and piss Gold.
Revenue difference
NC winning coaches don’t move from one college program to another, so if Fisher wins a BCS championship and gets the pay raise to go with it then he probably only leaves for the NFL. But if he just puts up a couple of double digit win seasons and LSU fires Miles the Tigers may try to make Jimbo one of the top paid coaches in the SEC to get him. It would be hard for FSU to justify paying Fisher more than they paid Bowden and it might be hard for Fisher to turn that kind of money down.
That is if it all comes down to money though in the short term though. If the ACC can somehow leverage basketball into a much more favorable TV contract and FSU performs how we expect it to, that combined with the recruiting advantages could help FSU.
by osceolafan850 on Feb 8, 2010 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed re: ACC and packaging basketball w/football...
THAT is what will save things for FSU and the ACC…..but are they smart enough to do that?
It may not depend on them
It may depend on who are the buyers. ESPN is wrapped up with the SEC so how much money are they willing to throw at the ACC? I am sure they would love to have ACC Bball but the SEC deal has them in bed with the SEC in that sport too. CBS is in bed with the SEC in football already as well. NBC is stuck with ND. So that leaves FOX, Versus, and starting a new network like the Big 10.
New network is a bad idea because of the lack of major markets in the ACC footprint. I heard a while back that FOX wanted to get into CFB so that could be interesting to combine FOX and the different FNS stations. Versus obviously wants to be a player and once the deal is done with Comcast taking over NBC they may want to up their profile with a major conference as well. But unless the ACC teams hit a roll in both Football and Basketball I can’t see anyone getting close to SEC money for them.
by osceolafan850 on Feb 8, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Disagree....
A new network is they way…..the ONLY way to POSSIBLY compete. Otherwise, you LOCK IN your secondary status if you break up the sports and stay with ESPN.
You don’t really have to get ‘close’ to SEC money….just get in the same universe.
ACC doesn't have the markets
The Big 10 is the only conference with a network and they have Detroit, the Twin Cities, Cincy and Pittsburgh and Philly are in play because of Penn State. ACC footprint gives Charolette but Atlanta and the Florida markets would be in contention because of the SEC. If Comcast is serious about sports signing with them could be big because they will own both NBC and Versus.
by osceolafan850 on Feb 8, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
But isn't comcast...
new?
Maybe I don’t understand, but you say a new network isn’t a good idea, but Comcast would work……but they are a ‘new’ network right?
Nah.
Comcast is a cable provider that has existing regional networks.
Merging with Universal would give them access to the NBC family plus Versus and several other cable networks.
New Network
Sorry I wasn’t being clear. I meant create your own network. In the Midwest the Big 10 has it’s own network which brings in a lot of money for them. They started the new round of monster TV revenue.
by osceolafan850 on Feb 8, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
Or you just sign with Fox, NBC, or get a station like VS carried nationally
and pair it with the Pac 10 if need be. This has been discussed on here in the past.
I dont get it
FSUn goes back and forth constantly – from loving FSU to subliminally bashing them. I DONT GET how you can say FSU does not have strong tradition and/or fan support. I have said this before in a reply to one of your posts like this – Winning changes all!! No matter which way you slice it!
Im also cofused on how you can say we are a 3rd teir… this is an opinionated statement – there are no facts to back that up, and therefore you are pretty much bashing FSU… as the other guy says above me — what other teams are in the other 2 teirs.
Lastly, Jimbo was an FSU fan coming up – LSU is the ONLY place he MIGHT consider…. He himself said that there were “5 other better choices” for him, and he picked FSU. Pros is a possibility, but other than a MAYYBE LSU, I dont see ANY other college he would consider
Yea
I agree that the money isnt there.. but once again winning will bring in more boosters and boost ticket sales, merchandise and anything else. Winning is the cure to it all in my opinion – and if it comes down to it and Jimbo wins a NC and says to someone "If I dont get _ money, then Im gone " . Do you think we are going to say “thats OK, go ahead and go to another school.” NO way! we will get up the money if he is winning for us
Only a great TV contract AND private fundraising (which FSU sucks at)...
will give FSU the money it has to have.
I'd like to see hard numbers on how much more money the SEC makes now from their tv contract compared to their old one.
The AJC said they expected at least $5M more per school. Doesn’t really seem like that much. It’s the season tickets and Boosters (donation $ per Booster, not necessarily total # of Boosters) that are lacking due to the past decade.
P.S. I'm trying to make the hype on this article
Surpass that of MattD’s defensive coordinator candidates. We’ll see how it goes.
>>---l>
Programs not teams
Tier 1: (no order) UF, USC, Texas. Nobody seriously argues this.
Tier 2: (no order) UGA, LSU, OSU, OU, Notre Dame
Tier 3: (no order) FSU, Penn State, Tennessee, Texas A&M, Auburn, Michigan,
It’s based off money and recruiting ability. Tradition ties into the money thing.
If one of those teams in the list is playing above or below the tier level, it is because of coaching.
That kid from the Matrix :The trick is to see that there are actually no "tiers"....
then and only then can FSU achieve their full potential and bend college football to its will.
I would think there are 5-6 tiers
The first 4-5, and then everyone else.
Obviously it's the money that's holding us back in your tiers, I think.
How much of an increase in revenue would you say we need to make tier 2? Tier 1? Our tradition from the past 30 years rivals anybodies and FSU will always be be recruiting the state of Florida.
We would need to have money to do whatever the coaching staff asked to get into tier 2
Tier 1 isn’t attainable. We’re not THE state school and we can’t improve our geographic location.
Can we knock UF down from Tier 1?
Understanding we won’t be “the” school in Florida, do we even have the chance to knock them down by bringing ourselves up (assuming, obviously, we could significantly improve our funding).
UF is also the 3rd largest Univ in the Nation
Tie that in with the love of football in the south, they will have more money. More alum (a ratio of UFalum/FSUalum that gets bigger ever year), more boosters, its a numbers game from that perspective.
FSU has more boosters than UF despite less living alumni
Donations per booster is a whole other story
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
uf and miami haven't self-inflicted
a large NCAA wound in quick succession, for about a ten year period combined.
My values: I love my wife, admire my dog, and believe very deeply that Bobby Bowden and Paula Dean were separated at birth.
Well, each decade one of our rivals was down right?
If the general prognostication on TN is true – that UM is on its way down – then we should be ok.
One might argue that they were down this decade.
Although, I herd that Urban is not directly involved with the new DC selection, as his agreement of absence goes. Adazio is apparently handling it. Maybe he will do an awesome job with it and ignore Myer’s input, just like he did with their offense.
Right, both FSU & UM were down after 2001, meaning UF had all the more reason to be good.
All they needed was a decent staff – and they got a great one.
Why not?
You guys owned the 90’s over us.
Why couldn’t you do it again?
by PullingGuardGator on Feb 9, 2010 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
The general sentiment here
is that we are playing a different game now. It is not something that comes down to “cycles”. It comes down to $$. Once certain schools realized that football was big business, the gap between the haves and have nots is only going to get bigger. While that isnt the end all be all, the fact remains that like baseball, the teams with the big coffers can recover from a mistake quicker than those who dont have the cash. Case in point, Yankees vs Royals. It is arguable that they make the same amt of mistakes in scouting, drafting, and FA signing. The difference is that with a mistake, the Royals are set back for a while, and the Yankmes can just go out and sign another stud the next offseason.
They would have to do it to themselves (i.e. probation)
And the NCAA isn’t going to put a team like that on probation
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
UF never on probation
I am frightened that I completely agree with you. That sux
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Feb 8, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
Bama spent more on football
than any of those schools in your Tier 1 this last year.
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 8, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
And Alabama doesn't have the recruiting base
they share the state with Auburn while Georgia and Louisiana aren’t legitimately shared with anyone.
Is that what keeps your other tier 2 schools in tier 2?
High money, but lack of recruiting base?
At the same time do you think a school such as FSU can climb into a “tier 2” because of a recruiting base? I know FSU has to share with UF and surrounding schools, we made it very apparent with this recruiting class that we can pull the top talent. I imagine that a successful season or two will make that even more apparent.
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 8, 2010 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
If FSU had more money and Miami was permanently out of the picture, I think it could climb into tier 2.
I dont keep up with a lot of the 'behind the scenes' stuff
But is this current staff building any kind of infrastructure to help with bringing in more funds? If the fundraising channels were anything like the rest of the aspects run by the old regime, I gotta think its not running at full potential
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 8, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
Question
I know that Auburn just signed a great class and had Bo Jackson, but why does Auburn bring Bama out of Tier 1, but we don’t do that to UF? Auburn has been sporadically good for the last 30 years – not anything all that special, in the scheme of things. It’s endowment is lower than ours, it has fewer students, has one national title in 1957… and despite Auburn’s great class this year, Bama still pulled in a Top 5 class anyway.
So, why does Auburn drag down Bama’s tier ranking, but we don’t affect UF’s?
Couple different reasons
Bama and Auburn both get SEC money. UF gets SEC money while FSU gets ACC money. Then the state of Florida produces more talent than the state of Alabama so even if FSU and UF had the same amount of money UF working at 100% is better than Bama working at 100%
by osceolafan850 on Feb 8, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
is this for the last ten years? 5 years?
Arguably, we had to belong in 1st tier in the 90’s. UF has and probably will always have a larger money pit than us. That being said, ask anyone in the 90’s which Florida program came to mind first.
It's for right now
and for the foreseeable future unless some team gets a dramatic revenue shift or a state changes.
Remember, this is program, not team.
Maybe the upcoming article will go into this
but what has changed in the college football landscape where our lack of resources has become such a huge disadvantage? During our 14 yr stay atop college football our resources were not dramatically better than they are now. We would definitely have been considered a Tier 1 program, no one would argue that.
My guess is that as technology has increased football has become an even bigger market and the game has become ‘modernized’. Nutrion programs, better facilities, beautiful lockerrooms, big support staffs, etc etc are now being implemented by the programs that can afford it. This distances the true Tier 1s from the 2s, 3s, and below.
Also, FSU was able to keep more talent on their roster with higher scholarship limits. Since this has been reduced, the ACC has continously been getting more talented, thus making consecutive 10 win seasons more challenging. Granted this didn’t exactly effect us over the previous 10 years because we were handicapped with an incompetent coaching staff so it was a mute point. We wouldn’t have been running off consecutive 10 win seasons, regardless.
I also think out of your list of Tier 3 programs we have the best opportunity to rise above and compete with the Tier 1s/2s because of the hotbed of talent in our state.
Also, your previous point of us potentially losing Southern GA to a rejuvenated UGA program could very well happen. However, we are staking a larger claim to South FL than we had historically had, and this looks to increase with a UM program headed in the wrong direction. So maybe we can compensate for this potential loss by making up for it in controlling the State of Miami.
This is the kind of stuff we cannot afford at the present time. It draws recruits tenfold
http://www.gatorzone.com/facilities/?venue=gateway_gallery&sport=footb&dir=plaza
http://loserswithsocks.com/2008/01/28/virtual-tour-of-oregons-facilities/
And mind that Oregon is not located is a good talent base and they just went to the Rose Bowl. If hey were located in California, Texas, or Florida….whoa!
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
are our facilities ‘good enough’? I think that the probably are. We are talking about 17-22 yr old kids, so keep in mind what is important:
FSU Facs + FSU coeds > Oregon Facs + Oregon Coeds
Our Coeds are a nice advantage noone talks about
Tier 1 Coeds: USC, Arizona State, UTexas, FSU.
ASU?
You must be joking. Most of the people here in sun valley are from the midwest, adn look the part. My wife has even noticed that the general population of women in the south is far more attractive, form college age on up. The coeds rankings should be USC, FSU, Ole Miss, Texas, Bama, UGA, LSU.
My values: I love my wife, admire my dog, and believe very deeply that Bobby Bowden and Paula Dean were separated at birth.
I hear ASU gets all the good looking girls from SOCal that can't get into USC or UCLA because of grades
and that their coeds are second to none. Same thing that makes FSU so great, girls that can’t afford to go to Miami and ones that don’t make the grades for UF go to FSU, hence the higher girl to guy ratio.
I thought that both
Arizona schools had nice coeds. FSU’s are second-to-none imo (especially considering the girl:guy ratio), but don’t tell that to my Vandy girl… they have some fine, rich girls at that school.
I put in Oregon's for s***s and giggles
OSU, Penn State, and Michigan were terrified that Terrelle Pryor would visit Oregon when he was being recruited. FSU’s doesn’t compare to Florida’s. And when it’s been proven time and time again that recruits (Primarily of a lower economic class), flock to rich programs (Who has won the last 8 NC? Rich schools), being ‘good enough’. Coeds don’t matter because every campus has them. These kids prioritize getting better as players first. Women are a perk that is present at every campus
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
So ultimately being "good enough" won't cut it
When u are competing with the likes of UF, Texas, etc, etc
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
I believe even Bobby Bowden pointed out
How important FAMU being across the street was to his players. Don’t undervalue the co-ed brother.
by scalp n spank on Feb 9, 2010 2:36 AM EST up reply actions
Was that before Bobby developed shingles?
If we are dependant on that we are truly screwed. No wonder Josh Shaw caught the first thing smokin to Gainesville
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 9, 2010 2:39 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t understand the Shaw comment. More girls in Tally and higher quality, IMHO.
I bring it up because numerous players care that there are 11000+ students at FAMU as well. And a huge portion are female, much higher than at FSU. Its a numbers game. No one is dependent on this anyway, just an ancillary benefit.
by scalp n spank on Feb 9, 2010 2:46 AM EST up reply actions
"Coeds don’t matter because every campus has them"
true, but just like recruits, the state of florida has more 5* elite prospects on the coedu150
by jasonole59 on Feb 9, 2010 9:41 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
FSU's facilities look the Y down the street compared to Oregon.
Holy sh…Phil Knight has a lot of money.
2010 AD = 1 AB for FSU
I'm ready to commit to Oregon right now
There facilities are sick. If they had a higher population in their recruiting footprint it would be over.
by osceolafan850 on Feb 8, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Their location is the only drawback they have
They are making inroads however
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe this will help some of you guys appreciate the point
look at the tier list and compare it to programs that have won the NC this past decade. For that matter, compare to the programs that even played in the NC game. There is a difference in being competitive and having that little extra oomph to get to the top. That oomph is money. having said that, I’m not as pessimistic as FSUn. I do appreciate the argument though.
I agree and appreciate the arguement as well.
My only point (or question rather) was what triggered the dynamics of college football to shift to a big money game?
The advent of the BCS is a good starting point
I’m not an insider at all obviously. But it is my opinion that once the BCS injected large doses of cash into the college football game. Schools that were already wealthy were better prepared to adjust to evolutionary curve so to speak. That evolution will hopefully be outlined a bit in RaysnNoles article. For comparative purposes, In the 90’s teams like Washinton and Colorado won shares of the NC. Once again, in the 2000’s no one but big money schools won a NC. Miami is the only exception, and we all know why.
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
ND
should def be a teir one team…they may not be a #1 team, they have more money than any other school out there BY FAR….
Thank God for the men and women who stand tall in the night to protect this great country we love so much
by hntdeerliv4noles on Feb 8, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
No it isn't
They just wish it was. Any team that HAS to recruit nationally does not have a recruiting base.
by osceolafan850 on Feb 8, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
Should "base" affect recruiting class rankings?
Like, if you have a bad base, should your class ranking be consistently low?
FSUn's criticism of ND
Is that they have admissions standards that keep elite DL out and cause attrition of those already there
>>---l>
That makes sense.
Even without a “base”, I don’t think that’s much of a detriment. But higher admissions standards definitely would be.
Depends on the rankings
With some rankings if you load up on skill players you can sign a monster class, while other rankings look at what you need. You can still recruit well without a base if you spend enough money, but you are having to work harder than Texas, USC and the other teams that have a base. This is widely reported as one of the reasons Meyer coaches at UF instead of ND.
by osceolafan850 on Feb 8, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
We don't have more tradition than LSU or UGA?
Not saying you’re wrong, just hoping to get more detail of your opinion.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
Really, really, really helps
Being the only big time football program within your state (GT does not count in Georgia)
>>---l>
True.
What is the biggest factor of income… boosters or ticket sales? What kind of ratio’s are typical for a program’s income, like 40% ticket sales 60% boosters, etc? which would beg the idea: If we then have a larger stadium than some competitors, does that mean if we start selling out we can catch up to them (also assuming we have par or better “expensive” ticket arrangements in quantity and value)? This kind of work can get really exciting for a bean counting accountant such as myself.
In fact, I wonder how much of the fiscal situation is disclosed. How do they operate? I think I found something to keep me busy until August.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
The longer Richt stays around vs. Johnson,
The more GT will begin to “count” versus UGA. Locale in Atlanta is an advantage GT is only beginning to leverage to the fullest extent.
The only problem is GT academic standards may slow down that process
Johnson has to stay there long term though. He’s much hungrier than Richt. But he’s ambitious as well.
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
academics do hurt
but that’s why the triple option works at those types of programs. look at the academies…triple option works better with smarter, quicker guys. you don’t necessarily need individual athleticism and size to win.
Then you add a kid a whole bunch of SEC programs wanted (Dwyer)
And there you go
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
exactly
i dont think the triple option will win you the NC every year, but youll have solid seasons. i wonder what dwyer’s academics were like anyway?
GT
Has a physical education and basiket weaving major for athletes. I read that somewhere so their academics standards don’t hurt so much.
I read last year that UGA has something in the area of a $00,000 to $15,000 dollar donation to the school in order to get season tickets. That is pretty strong.
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
UGA has the highest revenues.
They have the money to be whatever they really want to be.
My values: I love my wife, admire my dog, and believe very deeply that Bobby Bowden and Paula Dean were separated at birth.
and nothing to show for it.
So with all this money, they haven’t been able to get a coach into athens that can compete for a championship for 30 years?
Maybe the base isn’t that great. Athens is a great town, but that’s from my perspective. Not sure it’s the coolest town for someone that grew up on the streets of miami.
...my point
If UGA is essentially the only game in town, with tons of money, why do they always underachieve? Is the georgia talent pool overvalued? Why is it so easy for other schools to pull guys out of the state? This didn’t just happen with Richt.
Coaching
Say UGA fired Richt and threw a boatload of cash at Strong, or Muschamp or Smart. The program would take off. But the fanbase has accepted Richt, who isn’t a championship coach, and has accepted the results he brings in. If UGA had a cold blooded, competent AD or the kind of fans and boosters Bama has they would be scary.
by osceolafan850 on Feb 9, 2010 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
Georgia is also the easiest state to pickoff players from.
Alabama, Mississippi, Texas have strong holds on their kids staying instate. Georgia is probably the most fertile ground that allows the top-tier recruits leave the state.
SCALP 'EM SEMINOLES!
I'm not arguing that Georgia could take over the state if they wanted.
What I am arguing is that Georgia isn’t locked down right now. It’s FSU’s job to take advantage of this similar to what Florida did when Meyer came in (obviously Florida has other things in its advantage, but still…)
SCALP 'EM SEMINOLES!
I think you ignore ONE thing...
at some point, the SEC starts to beat each other up to the point it is a bad thing.
If FSU is going to BCS games
and recruiting against 8-4 SEC teams, they will recruit JUST fine.
Valdosta and much of South Georgia are closer to Tally
I don’t think kids really care just because they are from the state of Georgia. We will always have pull in that part of Georgia just because we are close by. There is still a big FSU fan base in south Ga. Also, Athens is a bit of a haul for Maw and Paw in the old jalopy. :-)
Winning begats winning so the out of state kids will have interest just on GP
It’s how USC gets a Brian Cushing, Dwayne Jarrett, or Keith Rivers (even though Rivers was born in Riverside). The internet is also instrumental in recruiting nowdays. Powell was UF’s main “recruiter” of Sharrif Floyd. And they live on opposite coasts. Powell (Cali) Floyd (PA)
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
No we're not.
Especially if Fisher makes Georgia his priority…
Kirby is from around Valdosta
trust me. Everyone at FSU acknowledges we’re screwed in SoGa if Kirby gets that job.
So basically we have to hope Georgia can win 9-10 games a year
while their talent base is being poached? Better get that metro miami pipeline cultivated, quick
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
FSU could get the leftovers from GA and FL...
and have enough talent to compete with 98% of the teams out there.
I think you SEVERLY underestimate FSU’s talent base.
Agreed
We don’t need to get every recruit out of SoGA. FSU will have a presence in that area as long as JF and company make it a priority.
by FloridaStateJay on Feb 8, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
I have a hard time
believing that. So what you are saying is that FSU is going to give up recruiting S GA because Kirby would be hired? Sure, it would make it more challenging, but we are not screwed. If that was our attitude, we would have given up on S Fla decades ago.
broward to vero
seems to work quite well for us right now. luc is PSL, joyner in ft. lauderdale, etc.
Yup....
FSU has obstacles…..but talent base and tradition are NOT one of them.
MONEY…..that is a huge one.
UGA has had stud recruiters before...
and FSU did fine. FSU has a solid talent base.
I agree FSU does
and UGA has not had someone like Smart with those connections and a Saban-like System
Yup, but if they did...
it won’t prevent FSU from having solid talent.
I get your point, but you are taking it to an extreme.
What's the extreme?
If UGA gets smart, FSU will be closed off in SoGa as far as elite talent is concerned. It becomes 3* and below territory.
I don't believe that for a second...
nor do the folks in the program I know.
Yes difficult, but there is too much talent in Ga to be closed off to anything below a 4 * kid.
Again...
not totally disagreeing with you….just think we disagree on the DEGREE. Yes, much tougher, but I just don’t believe if FSU is at full potential and UGA is at full potential that FSU losses 100% of the time.
Regardless, IF FSU gets shut out from an area, it has sooo many other areas, that it will be fine.
FSU’s issuse are not talent base or tradition IMHO. JUST money.
I agree that is the biggest issue
and we will be good on talent still. Have to have Craig do work in West Fla
Agree with this.
If Fisher sticks around, he will already have developed/built on relationships.
Also… Kirby may not have everything it takes to be the head man. Obviously he’s among the more promising young figures out there but there is always potential for a bust, especially given the fact that he’s been working under Saban’s area of expertise, whereas Jimbo was on the opposite side.
We have a year, maybe two before Richt is gone
We either have to hope he wins big, or that Georgia isn’t as serious about their football program as we assume.
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
Kirby as HC
KS doesn’t have what takes to succeed? Possibly, but the same could have been and was said of Jimbo
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Feb 8, 2010 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
How would SMart or anyone
“close off” South Georgia? By that logic, he would have as much chance “closing off” North Florida.
If FSU were just starting out, you may be right. But I think you’re discounting both history and the cultural differences between No Ga and So Ga too much. FSU is in the So Ga region. There are many FSU fans in So Ga. If Jimbo et al do their jobs, we will have a head start on re-establishing relationships with the coaches in a 100 mile perimeter, before Smart or anyone else comes in to compete. We will never be completely closed off.
My values: I love my wife, admire my dog, and believe very deeply that Bobby Bowden and Paula Dean were separated at birth.
by FiestaNole on Feb 8, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
we better have that panic room ready for when smart gets hired!
I know he is the hot name of the moment, but to say that he would just lock up the top talent from a state that has been up for grabs for decades is a reach.
What is the plan B then?
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
The Tampa/St Pete area will end up being more important than folks think
Another feeder school in PBC wouldn’t be too bad either. Just don’t know how feasible that is
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Appears it's gone from purchasing 187,000 acres of land to only 72,500 acres.
So it appears that there won’t be much job loss in the immediate future. Under the original plan, they were still going to grow sugar cane out there for the next 6 years. Now it appears to be the next 10 years, at least.
And if there was a mass exodus to WPB, it might disrupt the emerging pipeline from the area to UF.
I think a healthy Everglades is good for the state of Florida.
Are you saying you’re glad because of losing a foothold in PBC or because of the politics behind that deal? Or both?
A top 3rd Tier program
doesn’t stay relevent in the national media or spotlight with 10 years of mediocrity like FSU did. I’ve never seen anything like it.
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 8, 2010 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
Also need to understand what defines a "tier"
That doesn’t mean we’re in the third “quartile.” I think I’ve seen it spelled out where he’s talking about 10-15th or so nationally, by third tier… and if you threw out considerations of history and goodwill built during the dynasty, then I think we would fall much lower.
I agree that winning and the ACC getting its act together has the capacity to change some of these dynamics more towards our favor.
In terms of money
then the top tier are:
ND, Texas, UGA, Michigan, UF, OSU, Bama, UTenn, OkU, LSU, AU, Penn state
What would be 2nd Tier?
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 8, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
FSUn has listed his own perception of "tiers" with fewer teams.
I think UF, USC, OSU in top tier, alone. Five or so more in 2nd and 3rd.
It makes more sense to be top 3rd tier
if each tier only has 5 teams. Add in the other aspects other than money, off the top of my head I’d say we’d be in the top 10, but thats just me. Recruiting advantage plays a huge role in my own rankings.
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 8, 2010 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
MattDNole's completely unscientific estimate of programs that are definitely in a better position than FSU:
I mean, assuming schools hire competent staffs that take advantage of their resources, these schools are in a better spot than FSU.
Tier 1 (Assuming 5 per tier)
UF
Texas
Alabama
Notre Dame
Ohio State
Tier 2
USC
LSU
Georgia
Michigan
I think an argument could be made for us to be at the bottom of Tier 2, but the same argument could be made for Penn State, Tennessee, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and several other schools. Assuming one of those makes a better argument than FSU, then FSU is at the top of the 3rd tier, just like FSUn said.
Mine
PROGRAMS not teams.
Tier 1: (no order) UF, USC, Texas. Nobody seriously argues this.
Tier 2: (no order) Alabama, UGA, LSU, OSU, OU, Notre Dame
Tier 3: (no order) FSU, Penn State, Tennessee, Texas A&M, Auburn, Michigan,
It’s based off money and recruiting ability. Tradition ties into the money thing.
If one of those teams in the list is playing above or below the tier level, it is because of coaching.
It seems we disagree on USC.
I know their facilities and their finances suck, but their recruiting base is ridiculous. If they win even a little bit in most years they will be the biggest football story west of the Rockies (pro sports included).
I don’t think the Tyson chicken and Walmart money can be underestimated with Arkansas either.
Why Cant UCLA pass them?
Isnt their situation similar to FIU and UM? Theoretically, 20 years from now they can pass them.
The overall student enrollment at USC has MUCH higher SAT/ACT scores than UCLA.
Just sayin’. Maybe their football standards are much lower than UCLA’s, but with Neuheisel there, I doubt it.
UCLA doesn't care about football at all
They will never spend the necassary money to fortify their program. The present head coach was hired from self imposed exile
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
Money is 90% of the battle in college athletics...
unfortunately
OSU consistently in top 5 active players on NFL Rosters
For the past 10+ years. I disagree completely that they don’t have talent base. While the depth of Ohio/PA isn’t what it is in FL, GA, TX, CA, the two state schools mop up. They have no other competition…
Agreed, but they hit a high percentage of their top talent
In Florida a team is lucky to get 30-35%? NFL alumni to me is the best measure of producing talent.
If you made that list in 1999, it would probably look like
Tier 1: FSU, Nebraska, Texas
Tier 2: Michigan, Tennessee, Florida,
Tier 3: Kansas State, Miami, Penn State, Ohio State, Texas AM.
Some here would say we never higher than FU
only that they werent properly allocating their resources
I would agree
but would add in that FU being on probation hurt them a lot.
Schools like Texas really screwed around for a long time. Unbelieveable.
Lore says that UF went on probation because FSU + UM...
were beating them, and they got desperate. Chicken and egg?
Texas, USC, Oklahoma, Ohio State, etc.
Hell, most of the Tier 1 and Tier 2 schools in your list didnt do much from 1980-2000.
I am just trying to mitigate some of the board rage by clarifying...
…that tier 3 doesn’t equate to 75th in the nation.
UT owns everybody
It’s basically Texas, than everybody else
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 8, 2010 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
But they can afford to make the financial investments necessary to pull in a good squad, right?
Not necessarily ever crossing through the school’s or any related entities books…?
They pull in similar money to FSU
But they have other intagibles such as location and competition
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
USC has great boosters
They have endowments not only paid for with their scholarships, but also one to help pay the HC’s salary. They have been deep in the fund-raising game for decades now.
by osceolafan850 on Feb 8, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Money makes for a complicated mess
But didn’t Jimbo have offers to be HC at other schools that would have been an immediate boost in pay / celebrity? Or do you see Jimbo making a calculated move, using his time at FSU (and highly probable success) to facilitate his next HC gig?
He could've taken over
as Saban’s OC and had opportunities at NC State, UAB and WVU. While he would’ve been better off in the short term, in 5-10 years (from THAT time) he thought he’d have the best opportunity to be OC at FSU and stick around as HCIW. He knew what he had in FSU and knew what it’s capable of. If he wanted to school hop for the most money, he would’ve gone to another school a few years ago as HC and be getting ready to move on to a bigger fish by now for more money, too.
Jmo.
disagree with you
really?? lsu? that would be a suprise.
you really are on board with those whole sec thing, arent you?!
i think he might stay if we start doing some things on field with positive results.
say….we win acc, reach bcs bowl with in 2yrs.? then also maybe compete for NC by 2012? he would bolt for lsu? i disagree. but if he does, good luck to him.
we shall move on!!!!!
Each SEC schools get ~17 million per year in TV payouts
That is more that is more than our Booster contributions
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
You don't have a clue
I don’t want to get into an argument of personal attacks with you, but you need to read more.
LSU has a ton more money than FSU and their recruiting base is better than what FSU has because FSU has to split Florida with everyone while LSU dominates Louisiana.
You say we lose him possibly to LSU.
Does that change if he wins a natl championship here? Going along with your thinking (I dont happen to agree, but I understand your thinking) wouldnt that show him that he could still win it all here? The way I see it, we did pay Bobby 2.5 a year. I would think that if we were the best in football again, our revenue would continue to increase. If we win a nat’l title, that could help with the Fox deal, etc.
I'm sure it would change
LSU’s gonna pay someone $6 Mil and soon.
The fox deal might be a pipe dream.
I agree and disagree with you...
FSU is fine with tradition, fan base is off but within reason, it is the MONEY where the biggest issue lies.
Can FSU ever find the money to compete with the SEC? The answer is only with a decent TV contract and I do think the ACC has the TK W./Randy Spetman of conference leaders running the show (ie, he has NO idea what he is doing).
I'd hate the Fox deal, personally...
We’d definitely keep him if we’d won a national championship. But what happens if LSU is looking for a new coach after this year or next?
Any deal that brings in the money is a fine deal...
that is the long and the short of it.
Im not saying Im in favor of a fox deal one way or another,
but the fact remains, we cant continue to be on Raycom. I dont know the specifics of the upcoming article, but I have a pretty good idea of its content, and its obviously not good for us.
Heres what Im thinking
ESPN has the SEC
NBC does ND
Does CBS have a deal with a conference? ABC ? There are only so many options, but to have a big network, that would really increase our revenue.
There are 2 options...
NBC due to the Comcast buyout and Fox.
I don’t care who it is as long as they pay.
I'd much rather have NBC.
ESPN is dominating all sports networks. Fox doesn’t have enough other resources that we would get coverage. If we sell our soul to Fox, then we can forget about legitimate coverage around the country.
However, if you go to NBC and unite the ACC with Notre Dame, the Olympics, Sunday Night NFL, and hockey then you have a viable sports networking alternative.
The SEC on CBS works because CBS also has the Master’s, March Madness, and the NFL.
Fox only has the NFL (umm… do they still have Nascar?).
I personally would love CBS
who do I need to call to make this happen?
Anything that lets Gus Johnson announce FSU football games would be best.
But Comcast-Universal is the only company, in my opinion, that will have both the network and cable resources to put together a large contract that could pair the ACC with other quality sports coverage.
When ESPN/ABC has first pick of the Big 12, Big 10, and Pac 10 and covers all but one of the SEC games in football and then holds the broadcast rights to the BCS, do you really want to be shut out of their network without a viable alternative voice presenting your product? Is Fox that voice?
Interesting
I guess the big question is this: Does Comcast-Universal have the incentive to make such a move?
I think they do...
but the ACC might have to SELL it.
But again, the ACC, due to Tobacco road, is so shortsighted and small thinking, I fear they don’t understand the urgency
NBC would by my first choice.
Followed by CBS. Followed by staying with ESPN. Followed by Fox.
The ACC can’t go to another network where it is expected to be the linchpin of their sports line up. That’s a good way to turn into the MWC on Versus. But if it goes to a network where it can complement existing quality sports programming, then we can have money and respectable coverage.
Which is why I would love for the ACC to...
team up with the Pac 10 and Big 12 to rival the ESPN/SEC deal.
A west coast, mid america, and east coast combination
Now that would be interesting to see how the logistics would work on that.
It would be HUGE and honestly...
it would scare ESPN. But it would be about a miracle to get 3 conferences and a network to reach such a deal.
Not the same kind of deal...
apples and oranges.
How is it comparable to the Big 10 Network?
I am not talking about starting a new network…..getting one current one to take on these 3 conferences.
i was just wondering
what the deal with that was…who they compete with. who else can show big 10 games?
Here is a link that gives an idea of another awesome advantage of going with Comcast...
1 in 4 cable subscribers uses Comcast. If the cable giant ever… you know… is at odds with ESPN and decides to drop their programming…. guess who still gets into those households.
Comcast’s beef with the NFL Network lately is an example of this.
I don't see Comcast every dropping ESPN
wouldn’t that also mean dropping ABC? ESPN has too much pull
If Comcast is trying to create a viable sports cable network and ESPN plays hardball, I could see it.
I never thought I’d see someone back away from the table with the NFL either, but Comcast did it.
Can't piss off Disney
Disney/Abc/ESPN has a lot of pull when you add it all together. Comcast won’t try to go against them any time soon. The NFL just turned stupid by trying to charge so much more for their channel.
by osceolafan850 on Feb 8, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
A lot of this talk assumes status quo
DIVIDED internet/television markets. The twain shall be one, soon enough. That’s the strongest aspect of MattD’s argument… for instance, sports might ultimately become the only “regularly scheduled” programming as on-demand becomes further entrenched. The entertainment industry is about to be stood on its head.
My Main Question/Concern is this
Out of NBC, ESPN, CBS, and FOX – do you guys think the ACC is most likely going to make a deal with At Least one of these…????
If the new Comcast-Universal team wants to develop a significant cable sports presence, then they need some help.
The ACC can be that help.
NBC has a guaranteed win once every 4 years for about two weeks. They get another boost from the Winter Olympics as well. Their NFL coverage, while limited, is probably the best.
Adding the ACC would help their Saturdays in the Fall while also adding a potential midweek football game for a cable network. ACC basketball would carry a cable sports network in the spring.
Is college baseball ever shown outside of cable?
I can’t remember ever seeing it.
2010 ~ The Year of the Spear
and vern morgendorfer
aka the bobs from office space. maybe he can ejaculate all over himself whenever tebow is discussed….again.
I dont' think it matters as much as folks think...
Networks change quickly.
The real issue is money. IF someone will pay, the coverage will follow. JMHO.
Nothing will equal the SEC deal…..it just has to be in the same universe.
A major deal including the Big 12 and Pac 10 is the ONE thing that could trump the SEC….but again, I doubt the ACC is smart enough.
I don't think so.
ESPN has all of those conferences and the BCS. Do you think Fox can rival the kind of in-week coverage that other schools will get on the 4-letter network?
By the same token, I also think it would be TERRIBLE if ESPN got March Madness.
Pac 10 and Big 12 have contracts coming up...
THAT will change everything.
Would love for TN to do an article on the next TV contract...
that is really THE story.
Is there a way to the ACC to salvage things?
But without the pure panic...
things are bad, but things can be addressed.
Fox didn't do NFL until they decided to, and then they took it over.
They have more savvy minds than any of the other networks can boast. If they decide they want to beat ESPN at what they do, and put the money behind it, they can pull it off.
Just have to hope that, if they decide they want into the NCAA biz, they decide to pull in Pac 10, Big 12, ACC to carry their banner rather than stealing SEC from ESPN. Probably depends on how long before they decide to make jump, if they do.
*cough*FoxSportsNetwork*cough*
Dont they show late night poker, and not even the WS? I dont know if they have the know-how to dominate.
Neither did ESPN 25 years ago...
things change….QUICK.
Yes, FSN sucks at present.
But they haven’t put anything into it. They would have to get serious about taking some of the pie that’s out there.
They’ve already proven themselves serious enough to out-bid for the BCS games. Maybe that’s as far as they’re willing to go.. maybe not. Will have to see.
I honestly wonder IF ESPN
would sign the ACC for both sports…..and if they did, would the money be in the same universe as the SEC money. Not the SAME….but just not 3 times less than the SEC.
We already get that and more...
I guess ESPN will not even try to sign the ACC then.
Would an ACC network be more feasible (An advantageous)?
Even though it would have to slant more towards basketball out of tradition considerations
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
What network would be a good option though?
Espn is a Blue chip stock so to speak. Fox just wouldn’t cut it in the grand scheme of things
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
ACC would appeal more to their (FOX) sports base than the Big 12 or Pac 10
mainly due to NASCAR, but to a lesser extent also NFL and MLB.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher
I forgot Fox has MLB rights
Mainly because they choose to do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING with it until playoff time.
Less McCarver the better
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
by RaysnNoles on Feb 8, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The MLB deal is up in 2013.
So are the current NFL deals.
I would love to be on a network that has both of those in addition to existing national collegiate sports coverage.
I would love for the ACC to sign a deal with CBS.
I enjoy the CBS broadcast better than FOX or ABC. Plus, as someone mentioned earlier the more I get to hear Gus Johnson the better. In all seriousness, isn’t the SEC deal with CBS expiring in a year or two? How would a CBS contract compare with a FOX or NBC contract in terms of how beneficial it would be towards the ACC as far as revenue is concerned?
Gus Johnson won't cover CFB
if he doesn’t now for CBS, why would he suddenly do so if they switched to another conference? He already does CBB, NFL and MMA (for CBS and Shotime).
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher
Any way to get an "also" with ESPN
as in "ESPN – official partner of the SEC, and also FSU
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 8, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
I think ESPN would take that...
Someone mentioned before (jokingly I’m sure), that ESPN might try to force a conference change to get the “big” schools on TV. Force the ACC to take Vandy and Kentucky, and get the SEC to pick up FSU and Clemson.
CBS has the SEC, too.
But I think they now play 2nd fiddle to ESPN/ABC (ABC is ESPN, owned by the same company).
Nope, CBS has first choice
ESPN has choice on any game not covered by CBS.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher
One national title wont' equal things in the money area....
FSU has had two and still so far behind the SEC schools it isn’t funny.
It is about TV contracts. Is the ACC smart enough to package football and basketball?
seems like the sec didn't do it
when UF won back to back tourneys….but the rest of the sec wasn’t too great.
A national title (heck, just winning the ACC 3/4 years) will close the money gap.
Won’t make it equal, but if Jimbo wins, and asks for more money, he will get what he wants.
Just because
FSU splits Florida talent with UF and Miami, doesn’t mean our recruiting base is smaller than LSU. A heck of a lot more talent comes out of this state than Louisiana. To simply say that LSU’s recruiting base is larger because they are the only school in the state is over-simplifying the situation IMO.
Look at the 2011 class coming up
Florida projeted at 40 4/5* players. Louisiana projcts at 14. And they get that almost all to themselves.
We really do need UM to implode.
Seriously, Shannon for HC in 2015! YES WE CAN
You mean the kind of program that idles in mediocrity
as opposed to a full blown sh#t show? Let them have top 20 recruiting classes every year while we maintain top 8
Even if they do he'll be out of there in not time...
I don’t have any fancy stats, but I think Miami is probably a good example of a program that doesn’t have the cash flow to ever get back to the success they had in the 80’s, 90’s.
Um, why?
I’d rather the ACC have another strong team. If UM implodes, it doesn’t guarantee we get all those Miami recruits – USF, UF, etc, will draw their share of them.
The reason the SEC gets $$$ is because of the perceived quality of the league, and its fan base. A network is more likely to pay the ACC money for its basketball AND if the football deal includes strong FSU, UM, VT, etc. teams. I want UM solid – occasionally great. It helps the conference.
Let the other good team in the conference be UNC or something
2 great programs in one state is enough.
I dunno
I’m not sure UNC has the draw that a strong UM has. But a temporary fall for UM that helps FSU get “back” is acceptable. After that, we need to figure out a way to start squeezing UF out. On one hand, UF has a great location – on the other, it that central location could face some encroachments by FSU on the west, USF to the SW (which probably has a better overall location), and UM to the south. Not that UF will ever go away, but we need to figure out how to turn chip away at its advantageous location.
LSU got four 4/5* players from Louisiana in 2010. Louisiana does not produce very much talent.
Louisiana produced only 3 players in ESPN top 150 this past recruiting cycle and Auburn got the best one.
One year is too small of a sample size...
"If lessons were learned in defeat, our team is getting a great education." -Murray Warmath
One year is
a small sample size, especially considering it’s only a projected class. This year, rivals had 11 kids rated 4 stars or higher, of which LSU got 7. In 2009, they had 14 at 4* or higher, of which they got 7. In 2008, 7 out of 11. In 2007, 8 out of 16. So they average getting between 50-60% of kids ranked 4* or higher. Since Fisher got here, we average about 50% of our share of 4* or higher kids that we split with UF/Miami. I think the difference in our base is substantially smaller than you think.
Louisiana had 11 in 2010 (according to Rivals). They landed 7 (and missed on #1 overall).
Landed 7 of 14 in 2009. Landed 7 of 11 in 2008. That’s 61%, which, imo, isn’t all that great.
Under an incompetent Les Miles
Jimbo would probably have better success
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
It's certainly possible.
But I’m just trying to show FSUn that it’s wrong to expect LSU to land all 14 supposed 4/5* players next year and that recruiting Louisiana for LSU really isn’t any easier than recruiting Florida for FSU. We landed eight 4/5* players out of the 50 Florida had. For reference UF had 11 of the 50.
Our 8 were under an incompetent head coaching staff, too. Jimbo will probably have better success.
LSU does have a larger recruiting base
But thats due to the fact they have little to no competition for in-state talent. Plus, more Div 1 players per capita than any other state. The fact that the Houston area is so close to the state gives them access to even more talent. Dez Bryant grew up an LSU fan
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
Jimbo has already admitted he turned down more money to be a HC
yet chose to stay as a HCIW (no sure thing to be HC) for less money because he loved FSU.
I think its because it was the best oppotunity in the long run
I’m sure he loves FSU, but I think he meant that more as a “I turned down an immediate HC opportunity at UAB (or some other school) because I knew FSU was a better long-term prospect.”
by Mr. Tito Carlos on Feb 8, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, that's exactly what he said.
And while I don’t think he loves FSU as much as we do, I believe him when he says he’s had an affection for the school for some time.
Would you rather have half of florida or all of lousiana?
just look at this year’s recruiting. we were at a disadvantage and still did as well as LSU. florida HS football is just so far out in front. i’d take part of florida any day of the week. they still have more money though.
i’d rather just wait and see how jimbo does. if he does well other teams will come caling.
2010 AD = 1 AB for FSU
LA.s population is 4 million and flat lining
Florida’s population is over 18 million and GROWING. So if FSU splits with the uf and miami that is over 6 million population base to choose form. So the “LSU has the state all by itself” argument is irrelevant.
There over 24 million people in SoCal and yes people are leaving in droves but not enough to negate the talent base
Not overall anyway. If you question Louisiana, look at their two NC teams. Most of those teams are comprised in-state kids. They have the most “potent” in state recruiting base. Not in terms of numbers (because they are a smaller state population wise), but in terms of D1 players per capita. No state competes with them. Not even Florida
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
Per capita?
I think the best per capita might actually be Mississippi. But people shouldn’t sleep on any team in the south having a state to itself. Even if it just gives you a base, LSU can easily augement with a few kids from Tx, Miss, Ala and Fla.
by osceolafan850 on Feb 8, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
You're right. My point is, why people sleep on Lousiana talent is beyond me
Folks out here still operate under the impression that LSU isn’t even wealthy
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
Division 1 Playoffs
What happens if the politicians declare the BCS a monopoly and forces Division 1 Playoffs? Will these conferences even matter? If there is such inequity financially, how long until Congress declares that it’s not fair to the smaller schools and conferences, limits financially what schools can spend and standardizes expenditures, just like they have on the number of scholarships?
by nole34 on Feb 8, 2010 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Good point.
If you think FSU can’t compete financially, the numbers for non-AQ schools will make you pee your pants.
Wait to see the money that goes back into the Football program
Its makes me cry
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
But Florida IS much bigger
I know by everybody you mean literally everybody, but Florida does have 4 times the population of Louisiana. Plus, SoGa really is indistinguishable from NoFla (I grew up in Tally, my mom was from SoGa, etc), so we get part of that too.
The damn endless SEC crap on ESPN/ABC/CBS does hurt a lot though.
Florida State absolutely has the money to compete with LSU and should be in an even better position in a few years. Considering our program has been waddling in mediocrity, and yet FSU is still a little over $4 million behind LSU (and LSU gets more money from the SEC/ESPN contract), FSU is in great positioning.
FSU: $56.5 mil (#20 ranked win % since 2000, #9 ESPN Prestige Ranking)
LSU: $60.9 mil (#8 ranked win % since 2000, won 2 MNC, #13 ESPN Prestige Ranking)
UGA: $68.7 (#9 in %, #14 ESPN Prestige Ranking)
Tenn: $71.2 (#22 win %, #12 ESPN Prestige Ranking)
Virginia Tech: $45.7 (#10 win %, #37 ESPN Prestige Ranking)
FSU, when its firing on all cylinders, should have at least another $10 million in revenues. And if that gets UGA 2 conference titles in the 2000s in the SEC, I’d consider that pretty good.
If FSU’s boosters go back to year 2000 levels, those missing 5000 boosters should be worth over $5 million alone.
by mhauer on Feb 8, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If you want other sources,
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3849468 Prestige Rankings.
http://football.stassen.com/records/compute-request.html
Here's my biggest problem with the numbers...
If you compare FSU and LSU, the two schools report things so different. FSU doesn’t seem to put any of its Booster contributions into the Football category, while LSU at least puts some there.
So when you look at Football-only revenue, LSU wins like $40 million to $12 million. But then FSU apparently has $29 million in outside funds that LSU doesn’t report in that category.
We can’t extract the football-only numbers. When you add in the huge amount of money LSU gets from ESPN now compared to 2004-2005, I don’t know what happens.
I used to hate ESPN for turning into a shitty network
Now I hate them for adding to the imbalance between conferences. Stupid monolith.
I think they are within reason....
UNTIL the new SEC TV contract.
THAT changed everything.
You can now
Reporting has changed. Booster money falls into Total Sports Revenues. Football money is now independent of booster contributions. This was just recently implemented so looking past last year is difficult in comparing numbers.
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
so a lot can change in the future too.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
Wow
Seriously??? Um LSU was horrible up until this decade. Seriously. FSU is one of the top 10 of college football. Tradition? LSU sucked teh entire 90’s Most of the 80’s as well. Seriously bro I think you underestimate FSU.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3849028
ESPN has only one SEC team ahead of them in terms of “Prestige” Just becasue they were mediocre this decade, you can not erase what happened in the 90’s. By far the most dominanting decade ever for a team in college football history.
I understand
But you guys make it sound like is some impossible thing. Kids grew up watching FSU. There is no money because they have sucked. Once you start winning look for money to be rolling in.
Oh duh.
Because the high income graduates from other schools will suddenly start paying FSU once we’re winning.
We are talking about significant contributions from people whose net worth is in the tens/hundreds of millions or even billions. We aren’t talking about how much we make by selling t-shirts.
EJ Manuel
Seem to remember him stating he grew up watching Charlie Ward…. That is the whole point since these kids grew up FSU fans and now FSU comes calling you would think the would sign with FSU. LJ wants to be part of the class that brings FSU back. Also I think FSU has a lot going for it in recruiting. FSU pulls kids from Georgia, Louisiana, Texas(rarely but some), Alabama, Mississippi and Florida. Not saying they get the best from each state, but they get a good number for those states.
That is such a bunk argument.
Oklahoma became dominant after 15 years of suckage (1985-2000).
Ohio State was considered a dead program after going 32 years between Natty Championships (1970-2002).
USC was another dead program after going 25 years between MNCs.
Michigan went 50 years (!!!) between MNCs 1948-1997.
Tennessee went 21 years between MNCs.
Alabama went 17 years between MNCs.
Georgia hasn’t won one since 1980.
Texas went 35 years between MNCs 1970-2005.
To imply that kids won’t want to goto FSU because we haven’t won a national championship in 10 years is absurd and short sighted.
I love when arugments bring out the guys with poor reading comprehension skills.
Mateo cited “Watching FSU when they were growing up” as a reason for kids committing to a school. RaysnNoles pointed out that these kids were very very young the last time we were any good.
Nowhere does RnN say that kids won’t go to FSU because we haven’t won a recent NC. He said that would NOT come to FSU because we HAD won a recent NC.
Misrepresenting people’s words is such a bunk argument.
I’m not misrepresenting anything. The “We need to live in the now,” “Kids were 9 when we were any good.” The implication being that no one remembers when FSU was good so it doesn’t matter. And yet when we look at the teams that won National Championships this decade, most of them started the 2000s with DECADES of mediocrity and overcame it. FSU has to overcome much less than USC, ohio State, Alabama, Georgia, Texas, etc.
Then those schools succeeded IN SPITE of their recent history.
Which is exactly what FSU will have to do. Which is exactly what RaysnNoles said.
Again I say, misrepresenting people’s words is such a bunk argument.
Were all those schools you mentioned better than FSU while these kids growing up.
YES, more recent success is what sticks out.
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
Look, in 1999, no one cared about Alabama on the national scene. No one cared about Ohio State, USC, Texas, or Georgia either. Kids in 1999 grew up and did not see any of those teams win a national championship and yet those schools won them over the next 10 years. FSU is in a better position today than Ohio State was in 1999 for instance.
Disagree
OSU had a ton of money, better gameday atmosphere and a state to itself. OSU also was winning double digit games under Cooper, he just couldn’t beat Michigan. We have been 7-6 3 out of 4 years I think. Really can’t think of a school who has had our perfect storm. Shula was filling the cupboard when he was canned, as was Zook. Cooper had tOSU winning double digit games and sending guys to the league. USC didn’t have to deal with it’s in state rival winning NCs and pulling the top talent when Carroll took over.
The only team I can think of that might have had as tough a road to climb as us was Miami when Davis took over.
by osceolafan850 on Feb 8, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Disagree
If OSU had everything going for itself, as you cite, why did it take them so long to start winning?
Coaching
When Cooper was there they couldn’t beat Michigan, which was due to him and not a talent gap. Now Tressel and his play calling have cost OSU plenty of big games. If you are talking about the pre-Cooper days I’m not old enough to remember.
by osceolafan850 on Feb 8, 2010 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
OSU had some serious talent in the 90's
For the most part they were right there with us and Mia. 2 #1 overall picks and a boatload of 1st rounders, and most were real good in the pro’s. They underachieved so much.
Maybe not nationally
but all those schools you mentioned have one thing in common. Ohio kids by in large go to OSU same with USC Texas and if they want to stay home Georgia kids go to UGA. Those schools all have money and great recruiting grounds because they are the biggest thing in state.
13 at the oldest
We were still good compared to the rest of the country until 06. Our expectations were higher but to say we weren’t any good is a slight overstatement IMO.
by FloridaStateJay on Feb 8, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
TV Ratings Say Otherwise
I don’t have any data at hand, but it seems to me that FSU games regularly draw among the highest TV ratings of any college football teams, even during the lost decade. I think this kind of appeal has helped fuel our recruiting success, which like our TV ratings, has seemed out of proportion to our record in recent years (here I’m really talking about recruiting ratings, as opposed to actually getting the players you need, getting them in school, etc).
Let’s assume for the sake of argument that I’m right about the link between “interest” and recruiting. Then as long as this level of interest can be maintained and FSU can pay competitive salaries and maintain/develop good facilities, I think it has to be considered a one of the top places to coach in college football (I’ll grant you that UF, Texas, and probably USC are in another league in this regard).
For the sake of argument, I would also guess that the main ingredient in maintaining/improving the level of interest (and the TV ratings) is playing exciting/interesting games and winning a lot of them. I think this argues in favor of playing interesting OOC games, including the occasional intersectional game against teams from the Big10, Big12, or even the PAC10. (I do agree that playing any game against a BigEast opponent is just stupid, especially if that opponent is USF.) Obviously these are harder to win, and 3 is too many, but NOBODY outside of the most hardcore FSU fan wants to watch us play the kind of OOC cupcakes UF plays.
Of course the cool helmets and the pregame ceremony with Osceola, Renegade, and the flaming SPEAR don’t hurt either.
Not the biggest tv draw
We draw big against our two biggest rivals. Other than that we aren’t a major draw because we have lacked the big stars and the games haven’t meant much in the big picture of CFB. Playing all the big OOC games is detrimental to FSU’s long term success because it can be the difference between 12-2 and 9-4. Just looking at Boise’s success shows you that winning is more important than who you beat. And the only people who complain about UF’s schedule are people trying to take shots at the program. Everyone else is always ready to crown UF or Texas a champ no matter who they play OOC.
You also can’t just use ratings to say it should be easier to recruit. Because we don’t know what age groups are making up most of the viewers. If it is a bunch of 30 yr olds watching the Noles out of nostalgia, that doesn’t help recruiting 17 yr olds.
by osceolafan850 on Feb 8, 2010 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
Let's be clear:
Once we have some on-field results, I expect our recruiting to return to SEC-like levels.
Our total class ranking (quality + quantity) is already upper half or upper third of SEC this year, as illustrated by the chart. In terms of average star ranking (quality-only), we’re already up there with Alabama, LSU, Auburn in the SEC, only trailing Florida by a significant amount, but so is everybody else.
We’ll almost assuredly be competing with the elite of the SEC next year in recruiting on any terms. Then, from where we are, it may take another year or so for these classes to mature before we’re on par with the SEC elites on the field, but let’s not pretend we’re not already competitive in recruiting, because we are.
Deflating SEC hype on TN since ’09 :-P
?
Who said anything about a trend? We’re talking about a “return to SEC-like” recruiting? Haven’t we arrived? When we place ahead of 7 SEC teams, even by the least favorable rating service, isn’t that already an “SEC-like” class?
If we’re talking about our roster, let’s talk about schedules and outcomes… but if we’re talking about recruiting, we just had a top 10 finish. This year’s race has been run, and we “beat” most of the SEC. And, this, while working with half a staff and a host of dark clouds over the program.
I just like to see something happen more than once before saying we've "arrived."
by MattDNole on Feb 8, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We're talking recruiting, right?
If we won a championship on the field, would you wait to see a trend of them? THIS CLASS is on par with upper half of SEC. It is what it is.
From there, we can get into debates about expectations, but a “return” to SEC-like recruiting is simply a misnomer. I would even guess if we averaged our previous couple years with this one that we would come out middle of the pack against the SEC. Talk about inferiority to Alabama’s, Florida’s, etc., if you want, but to say we’re not even in the discussion with the balance of the SEC is defeatist.
Ok, you've successfully argued your point.
I just wanted to make sure you hadn’t formed your opinion using one cycle’s success to act as though we’re suddenly as good as the upper echelon of the SEC.
If you go back over the last four years, we’re not better than Alabama, Florida, LSU, and Georgia have been better than us. We’re in the same discussion as Tennessee, Auburn, and South Carolina. Woohoo middle of the pack!!
Would you feel better if he changed the wording to “a return to elite SEC-style recruiting”?
Umm... no.
Alabama had the number 3 class this year after back-to-back fake recruiting titles. In 2007 they finished 10th while we came in at an underwhelming 21st.
Maybe sit the next few plays out, Champ.
So he means something that is not part of our conversation, got it.
I’d gladly trade them that game if they’ll trade us the 2 BCS bowls and 1 NC.
Absolutely.
a return to elite SEC-style recruiting
Is perfectly fine. I just take offense to being slated beneath Kentucky.
Perhaps the phrase was a bit off
And I like Matt’s suggestion of adding the word “elite.” But let’s compare FSU’s class to UF’s, in terms of 5- and 4-star athletes. Heck, let’s look at AUBURN (how else do they rack up the class they did if they aren’t in the SEC?), Alabama, LSU, Tennessee (a bigger coaching switch than we had, with less time to make it up). Georgia wasn’t too far behind us. I didn’t mean that we haven’t done well lately, but I suppose I could have replaced “SEC-like recruiting” with “FSU-90s-like recruiting.” And in terms of rankings, we aren’t there yet. In terms of the number of high-profile recruits (yes, I know not all of them pan out, but rankings are indications – see the article referenced above), we aren’t there yet. But we will be.
And is anyone satisfied with being in the “upper half” (at the low end of it) of the SEC in recruiting? I’m not – I’m waiting for the day when FSU again brings in the stud athletes we want with relative ease (again, see UF and all its ridiculous coaching crap this season – and they STILL killed in recruiting).
We’ll be back soon. As I said, though, can we stay there? We need to build a stronger fan-base and booster organization; we need to find other ways to bring in revenue (better TV contracts, selling merchandise and tickets, etc.). It’ll be tough, but I think FSU CAN do it.
As far as tradition – I think FSU has plenty. Someone suggested tossing out the dynasty years, but that’s like telling Notre Dame or Alabama to toss out THEIR heyday. It makes no sense to suggest that – tradition is built by long-term success. The 90s give us a great foundation. If Jimbo has the success I think he will, FSU will solidly be in the upper tier in terms of tradition (more money will help keep us there – so donate! Personally, I put my money where my mouth was, and I sent in a donation the day Bowden’s resignation was announced; this year, I plan to increase my donation).
I'm on the same page with your broader perspective.
I just don’t think it’s useful to diminish our present standing as part of laying out the road-map for improvement.
Put it this way — in our darkest hour, we have only fallen to middle-of-the-pack SEC. Not very far to go to get back into the elite. NSD was a great 1st (or maybe 2nd or 3rd) step.
Keep in mind how terrible bottom of the pack SEC football is.
FSU should never fall to the level of Kentucky, Vandy, or Mississippi State.
Two years
We have to do it consistently is what he is saying and we probably will but its yet to be proven. Bama is number one in state when it comes to importance so is LSU, Georgia and most other SEC schools. We still battle Miami for number 2 in our state and until we lay waste to them Florida isnt even in the picture.
I have now jumped totally on the DEVELOPMENT bandwagon
didn’t see it coming, but its here!!!Stars Whats a star!! or Two!! Give me a development program best in the ACC!!
As usual
the opinions are supported with sound empirical data and probability calculations.
Thanks.
Why do you think that Miami is having such a problem this year when they had a good season, their coaching staff is relatively stable and the kids in South Florida usually lean toward the Canes? I live in Ft. Lauderdale and I see a Canes bias even more than kids jumping on the Gator bandwagon. Any thoughts?
Stable coaching staff?
I don’t know that that is the situation. They had first year OC and DC last year, and lost coaches this year, right?
Just referencing point about coaching stability.
Whether he’s an active recruiter or not, being able to assure players of development under a former NFL QB coach is attractive.. but they can’t even guarantee he’ll be around for too long.
They were still 2nd or 3rd in the ACC overall, depending upon which source you look to, and #1 in the Coastal division.
If they only had to play the ACC, there wouldn’t be cause for alarm based on recruiting alone.
However, they do have to play some better coached teams like VT and their OOC schedulnig is nearly as bad as FSU’s. Next season they have to play at Ohio St. & at Pitt., with USF at home. They have FAMU at home, at OSU, bye week, and at Pitt, at Clemson, and FSU to start their season. They finish with at GT, and VT & USF to close. Here is their 2010 schedule.
In 2011, their OOC is: OSU, K-state, USF.
It’s hard to get to elite level without taking some practice weeks against cupcakes. They are gambling on several out-of-state project players. If there is a lapse in coaching, it will show in the W-L column.
this sucks balls
all of this football talk is depressing..now i’m stuck with watching hockey and nba until mlb starts, which can only fill the void so much..dammit
"We need grown-ass men"
FSUn good stuff as usual
I have a some questions for you. Reading your comments in the past few months about where the program was, is now and where you saw it going in the future. Would you say the progress FSU’s made since Bowden departure is about where you anticipated to be, or ahead of where you thought FSU would be as a program right now?
Are you at all suprised by the money and commitment FSU is putting into not just the coaching staff but the support staff for the football program? And did you for see the uptick in booster contributions happening this quicky?
And with what’s happened so far do you still view FSU’s ceiling as a program the same as you did in say November or have you adjusted what you think FSU in capable of longterm?
I know FSU is not on the level on some of the real heavy hitters financialy but I personally look at the finaces like this, as long as you can stay in the same ball park as the top dogs, meaning your program is capable of generating enough revenue to get you everything the big boys play with you don’t have to have the same cash as them because they can’t use it all.
At some point I think the money becomes redundant (Ok St.) because there is only so many things you can spend it on. If it was just about cash Texas would kick everybody ass because Bama, UF and probably even ND can’t match the cash those guys are capable of throwing around. To use a baseball ananlogy you don’t have to be the Yankees you just can’t be the Royals.
In your opinion would you say that’s a fair assessment in regards to the impact of the money in these “tier 1” programs or is it something I’m overlooking or underselling?
Good site for finances
You can check out where the money comes from and where it goes.
A couple things people seem to forget:
1. This coaching staff costs less right now than the staff they replaced
2. Donations to boosters are up
Seriously, if you haven’t already, join Seminole Boosters and help ensure as broad based fan support as we can provide. I think it is kind of sad that our booster org is 25% smaller than NCSU for example.
To answer a couple of your points
I know FSU is not on the level on some of the real heavy hitters financialy but I personally look at the finaces like this, as long as you can stay in the same ball park as the top dogs, meaning your program is capable of generating enough revenue to get you everything the big boys play with you don’t have to have the same cash as them because they can’t use it all.
The ‘top dogs’ are playing in the new Yankee Stadium while FSU is in the sandlot
At some point I think the money becomes redundant (Ok St.) because there is only so many things you can spend it on. If it was just about cash Texas would kick everybody ass because Bama, UF and probably even ND can’t match the cash those guys are capable of throwing around. To use a baseball ananlogy you don’t have to be the Yankees you just can’t be the Royals.
Bama, UF, Ohio St are all on the same level as Texas. We have Royals money but fortunately are run by much more intelligent people then them, the Rays would be a better example (making the most of limited resources)
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
yeah but how much of thier profits goes back into operating cost each year?
Thier are only so many assistant trainers, and help staff, etc .you need. How much of the money are they spending on them?
I can see the money going into thing like player lounges and such, but you’re not building a new one every year.
I don't think anyone could be on the same level as Texas
If they wanted to just thorw around money. Maybe ND.
No they don’t. They dont have anywhere near the money UT has, especially not LSU. Unless LSU is generating like 30 million more dollars a year since 2005, LSU has no where near the money that Texas has. No one has as much money as Texas, no one.
Don't just look at their endowment.
UT does have a very large endowment. They have about 7.5 BILLION of the University of Texas System’s total 17 billion or so. But you have to look at football money. How much money they raise and spend on football. In football money, other teams do compete with UT.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
No one compares to UT. Unless schools are magically generating 30+ million dollars a year since 2005, NO ONE compares to Texas.
You are missing the point. Again.
Forgot about the SPEND part of “raise and SPEND.” UF spent 300k more than Texas last year for football.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
It includes coaching salaries.
RnN may have different numbers than these but they will give you a good idea. I’m sure when his article comes out there will be clarity for all.
You are right. Texas makes a TON of money on their athletics. But other schools have shown that they are willing to spend a bunch on football to stay elite, like UF.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
No problem
and still some people just don’t get that NCAA football (and other sports) is a huge business. “They are students” yadda yadda. Yes they are students. Students that help UT generate almost 140 million dollars a year. Just crazy.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
They may spend as much but
If Texas really wanted to throw money around I don’t think anyone could come close to them. The type of money that program has the potential to tap into is insane. Just look at the high school facilities and coache’s salary in that state, those guys are capable of generating the type of money that would shame anyone in the SEC imho. I can’t imagine how may wealthy boosters that program has.
I can't find the article
But recently the AD at UT asked a “younger” booster for a 4 million dollar donation and there was 5 million wired the next day no questions asked.
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
What about the money to withstand hard times?
"I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one gets to the Father but through Me"
What seperates a good team from a bad team
I believe I heard Nick Saban say it was the bottom 40 players on a roster that make championship teams. I think he said this right after the Texas game (maybe before the game???).
While I may be blinded by my loyalties, I think we have now collected three quality classes in a row 2008 (lots of current starters), 2009 (some stars but still need more time to evaluate), and the 2010 class appears outstanding on paper.
Now that we have a full coaching staff recruiting, the next few years should see even better results on the recruiting trail.
Foosball is the devil
Clemson had the top class in 06,07, and 08.
I did not realize that. Looks like it may take us more time to catch up?
I don't think so
Even though Clemson had the top class in the ACC 3 years in a row the only side of the ball that really shows it so far is the defense. Spiller leaving leaves Clemson with a lot of question marks since he was the guy who made their O and ST tick. The quote in the article from their site is already predicting they will lose to us this year.
by osceolafan850 on Feb 8, 2010 9:13 AM EST up reply actions
They are working with an HC + offensive system hardly superior to ours in the JB years.
Another great illustration of what talent can’t do without proper coaching.
I doubt it...
not when you factor in the second half of the equation: coaching and development. Remember, Clemson’s staff is comprised of Bowden associates/buddies/cast-offs. They’re not state of the art, to put it mildly.
My values: I love my wife, admire my dog, and believe very deeply that Bobby Bowden and Paula Dean were separated at birth.
Clemson is probably a good bit ahead of Florida State on the defensice side of the ball. However, I think FSU has enough talent that Stoops will get much more out of this group than you saw last season. Offensively, FSU is way ahead of Clemson from an X’s and O’s perspective. Clemson cannot consistently run the football (and by consistent running I don’t mean Spiller hitting a homerun ball) because of our offensive line. Brad Scott has done a terrible job the past 3-5 years and Clemson is paying the price. Clemson does not have quality depth up front and the players under Scott did not seem to be developed either. We had a similar story with the WR last season, as Jacoby Ford was the only real threat who could both get open and catch the ball. Hence, our TE (Michael Palmer) ended up being Clemson’s most reliable and clutch pass catcher.
Overall, Clemsonmay have had better overall classes in those years, but players (offensively listed above) were either not evaluated correctly or have not been developed properly since coming on-campus, particularly up front offensively and CU is paying for that now.
I also like FSU’s coaching staff. I think Clemson is fine on the defensive side of things with Steele and his assistants, but think there is a clear FSU advantage offensively—especially from an experience standpoint, starting with Fischer and working down the list.
Clemson Sports Analysis and Insight
www.shakinthesouthland.com
Will all ACC sites have this up?
I can’t wait to see what the UM site has to say. Some Cane fans agree that this class is a big miss for them, but other Cane fans are buying into the depth building and sleeper company lines. I also think it is funny that Canes fans were saying Shannon didn’t go after Joyner or Mitchell because he doesn’t like short corners, but they sign a kid who is 5 foot 10. As if Joyner’s talent does compensate for that one inch lol. I really hope that staff has given up so we can pull kids like Benjamin next year.
just wanted to point out a little typo on the very last line...
“But the Big 12 is a two-team league and is on par witht he ACC. "
"Don't flinch, let's kill a fly with an Axe."
>>>──────►
I couldn’t agree more re the comment that the bottom of class’s talent matters as much as the tops – that was clearly a problem in the first half of the 2000s when we still had great players in half the positions and crap in the other half – whereas in the 90s the lower half was still pretty darn good
Yes
Our eyes always dart to the “extreme” values, but it’s really about the distribution. Which, by the way, makes Florida’s and Texas’ recruiting class even more astounding:
22 of 28 (79%) of UF’s commits were 4* or greater
21 of 25 (84%) of Texas’ commits were 4* or greater
_____________________________________________
10 of 24 (42%) of FSU’s commits were 4* or greater
Jimbo
since Jimbo runs a pro-style NFL offense, seems logical that the best next step for him would only be the NFL. LSU, other than money, wouldn’t make any sense.
also
why jump ship to LSU after Miles has officially run the program into the ground? after (for the sake of argument/hypotheticals) rebuilding FSU to 9-10 win seasons would he start all over again?
With LSU's resources it can be done a lot quicker then at FSU
See Alabama
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
starting all over isnt a big deal anymore
nm, RnN beat me to it.
You cant assume to know what he wants man
All we are saying is that its possible. I love FSU, I dont see why anyone wouldnt want to be a part of Seminole Nation. I am not most people.
Do coaches really care about their competition level?
Does going from good competition to great competition really matter? It doesn’t to me, at least.
Nice compromise.
But, in seriousness, do you care who you face in the title game? Because you’re going to do everything you can to win no matter whom you face…
True
But if you beat a team you are heavily favored to win against, people won’t take it as seriously.
Hopefully a title game won’t be so one-sided, but who knows.
2010 ~ The Year of the Spear
For the Talk of TV contracts
Most update info I think. Might be new numbers out there but this will give everyone a good idea of where the Conferences Stand. SEC teams are Getting Paid.
Conf Teams $/Year $/Yr/Tm TV Partners
SEC 12 $205.0 $17.1 CBS, ESPN
Big 10 11 $174.0 $15.8 BTN, ABC/ESPN, CBS*
ND 1 $11.0 $11.0 NBC, Big East*
Big 12 12 $79.5 $6.6 ABC/ESPN, FSN
ACC 12 $66.9 $5.6 ABC/ESPN, Raycom*
Pac 10 10 $53.2 $5.3 ABC/ESPN, FSN, ABC/ESPN*
Big East 8^ $45.3 $3.7 ABC/ESPN, CBS*
MWC 9 $12.0 $1.3 CBSC/Mtn.
CUSA 12 $11.3 $0.9 CBSC, ESPN
WAC 9 $4.0 $0.4 ESPN
MAC 13 $1.4 $0.1 ESPN
Sunbelt 9 $0.0 $0.0 ESPN, Cox/Charter
So basically it is the SEC and then the Big Ten (yes the Big Ten network seems to be paying off) and then everyone else not even close with Notre Dame to a lesser extent. Hope this brings some perspective.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
Notre Dame makes more money than the entire ACC
The SEC makes about 4X as much
Hell, the Pac 10 is equal (9 teams while ACC has 12) per team.
Yup.
Pac 10 negligible difference of only 300k per team.
You mean Notre Dame by themselves makes more PER team right? Because they do. And that is lame. Twice as much as any ACC team.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Feb 8, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
If the ACC could get over $10 Million per team, I would be thrilled...
I wonder what the likelihood is?
I would say slim to none.
I of course have no info on how likely that is. But I think ACC fans and schools should be thrilled with a raise to about 8 million a school. I just don’t see them Signing a 120 million a year contract doubling the previous numbers. I would be happy if we took the 3rd conference spot behind the SEC and the Big 10.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Feb 8, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
I'm trying to find numbers for both football and basketball.
We are lucky that both deals expire at the same time. If we package them, we could get a big contract.
That is what I think...
well 50% think 50% hope.
Google Equity in Athletics Disclosure Act.
Searchable database of athletic revenues.
Could be wrong.
That is a great site and I have used it before but I’m not certain that the revenues total includes TV contracts. That is only program generated money.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Feb 8, 2010 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
Here's an interesting link...
ESPN’s deal with the SEC is 5 times more lucrative than the ACC’s deal with Raycom (these are comparable because ESPN is the second source for SEC coverage while Raycom follows ESPN in ACC coverage).
Man, I really would love to be a fly on the wall in ACC's...
office when talking TV contracts.
They are SCREWED if they can’t do something decent with this next contract.
Also says "industry analysts" expect a 50 to 60 percent increase on our football contract.
Our basketball contract with Raycom is around $35 million as well.
We have to shop these two as a package deal.
this isn't good...
“"All of the distribution in the world is of no value if you don’t have content," said Haines, who has enjoyed a 20-year-plus relationship with ACC Commissioner John Swofford and banks on those ties to keep Raycom in the game.”
I don’t trust Swofford.
Maybe he's not a complete baffoon?
Swofford:
We have the opportunity to consolidate our football and basketball, which we have not done historically in this league. We separated the two, but we set them up purposely so the contracts would end simultaneously this time around so we could connect the two should we desire to do so.
THAT is smart...
but if he doesn’t parlay it into a swee deal, it means little.
Yes, but...
this contract will determine if the ACC survives as one of the big boys.
His dealings with bowls, etc has been horrible, so I just don’t trust him to do a good job with something this important.
I will gladly eat crow, but you don’t entrust critical jobs to folks who haven’t succeeded.
Don't get me wrong, I think he's chopped liver.
Just holding out hope that a blind squirrel may find a nut… or be lead to a nut under penalty of execution.
He has been speaking that up for a while
I can’t see him talking about it for so long and then switching. Man did UNC pick a bad time to stick up the joint in Bball. I am sure they will turn it around next year though. Insane that I will be rooting for Duke and UNC as much as possible for the next year or so.
by osceolafan850 on Feb 8, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
Raycom is the worst...
“Which, for Raycom, means it all comes down to the ACC.”
If ACC sticks with them…Swofford should be run.
by noles55 on Feb 8, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I guess that would be OK....
I just know the ACC needs a MAJOR network that pushes the conference like ESPN does the SEC
Soooo let's say
(My) Best case scenario.
We get a 50% Increase for ACC football contracts (highly doubt this but maybe more likely if we tie it to the bball contract) coupled with a tied deal with basketball which also sees a 50% increase (more likely).
We would be looking at a total contract of about 153 million. Puts us still in 3rd place AND we are sharing with the basket ball programs.
If you give the bball programs their fair share you are looking at:
8.375 for football/year
4.375 for basketball/year
That is 12.75 million total for each school per year. So we are still 5 million short of SEC teams even combining two sports. It is going to be hard to catch up. We will probably still be far behind even if we get creative with a combined deal. Have to remember the economy totally tanked right after ESPN finalized their deal with the SEC. That will just make things even tougher for teams looking to get an increase in future contracts.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Feb 8, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
ACC doesn't have to catch the SEC....
just get in the same ‘university’ ($10 plush a year per team).
I agree. Don't have to catch the SEC.
But I don’t think we hit that 10m mark for football with a new contract. Again, I could be totally surprised here but look for matt’s number of 100m a year for football. That would be 8.3 million a year per school. That would be great and probably a more realistic number to shoot for.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
I am saying $10 Million for the WHOLE package...
I don’t like splitting them up.
HAHA.
Not sure Coach Ham would agree with you. But yes 10 million/year for the whole package should be a reasonable goal to attain. Probably even on the low end. I would like the 153 million total. Probably fall somewhere in the middle.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
That would be a HUGE win for the ACC...
and FSU IMHO.
Again, ACC doesn’t need SEC money…..just somewhere in the same universe. I think your numbers would do that.
Also, keeping footballtied with basketball helps keep the ACC focused on both.
Correct.
A hypothetical ACC yearly payout (Football and Bball, if we work a contract for both) to the SEC yearly payout (just football) they currently have. The point being even if we combine both we are still behind (with a 50% increase to both football and bball contracts).
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Feb 8, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
Here is a report on football revenue.
If we could get the ACC total to $100 million annually through ESPN+ Raycom or through another network, I’d be ecstatic. The basketball deal should help that as well.
Improvements
We, as fans of the Noles, have to be patient. I know that it will be hard, considering the last decade of watching our team slide toward mediocracy, but it will not happen overnight. I think Jimbo has a plan and coupled with the new s&c coach and nutrition program, I think we are headed in the right direction. Honestly, with the passion of our new coaching staff, it could happen sooner or later. Sit back and enjoy the ride. Go Noles!
by NoleySmokes on Feb 8, 2010 12:26 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I think sooner
I really think Jimbo is on the right track. Numerous coaches have shown in recent years that huge turnarounds can be made in 2 years. I think FSU will do that. We have had a couple strong recruiting classes, we now have a great coaching staff – and we will be one of the top teams in the ACC in the next couple years (= shot at ACC titles and BCS bowls). When we start winning again, we’ll have better TV slots, more exposure. If we do start winning again, Jimbo and the program will get a lot of nice coverage. I don’t mean to be too unrealistic with my expectations, but FSU has some name-recognition, some advantages. What we need to do is capitalize on them and the opportunities that winning again will bring us. I think FSU CAN move up into FSUn’s second tier (eventually). It’ll take a committed fan base though, so buy tickets, buy merchandise, join the boosters, go support the teams (not just football), and don’t back down (in every every “mixed marriage” I personally know of, the kids are being raised Gator fans…).
The tragic fact is
that many of the same delusional fans who were content to worship Bobby and who thought the Deacde of Decay should last even longer, will be the very ones screaming over the next 2 years that Jimbo should be fired for not turning things around immediately.
My values: I love my wife, admire my dog, and believe very deeply that Bobby Bowden and Paula Dean were separated at birth.
I think they are few and far between, though.
Even on other FSU sites the majority are glad the changes have occured.
Florida State had four players ranked as a 5 star by at least one of the networks
Christian Green, 5 star on Scout and their #1 player in Florida
Christian Jones, 5 star on Rivals and their #2 OLB (BS)
Lamarcus Joyner, 5 star on Rivals and ESPN
Jeff Luc, 5 star on ESPN.
Anthony McCloud was the best DT in Georgia his senior year in HS. Brandon Thompson’s own coach voted for him as the best DT in their county. Cameron Erving was the 5A All State in Georgia. Dominic Easley was given an offer by Florida AFTER Darious Cummings turned them down.
Mike Harris was the top Juco DB in the country. Jimbo isn’t shy about praising Telvin Smith. I’m beginning to see what FSUncensored has seen in Nigel Terrell.
And Bjoern Werner / Will Tye might be the two best athletes in the class. But, they played in Connecticut and both had off the field concerns that scared the services away from lauding them (Tye with grade concerns; Werner with ya know, being German).
This is a top flight class. Jimbo nailed every angle. Our DEs are going to be 260+ pounds the both of them like LSU 2002-2006. No more WDE/SDE. Watch every Brother Stoops’ and Saban defense. Both DEs are big, collapse the pocket, and stop the run. Create pressure not through going 10 on 11 against the run with a speed rusher, but by collapsing the pocket and bringing the speed from the LBs and DBs.
Luc fills his gaps more violently than any player on the roster already. I’m really excited to see what the staff does with Joyner. Jimbo doesn’t use words like “flip the field potential” cavalierly, but he says this all the time with Joyner.
Florida State as a whole most focus on the future and lay a solid foundation to become one of the elite
1. The institution most continue to produce Lawyers, Doctors, Nurse or any high paying grad. Not only that they most make these grads more loyal to Florida State then their undergrad school (I know it’s going to be hard but it needs to happen.)
2. The institution most create a SEC-like fan base in football and a Duke-like fan base in basketball. I want anyone who has ever been to Florida State to become a passionate fan who donates a lot money.
3. Endow scholarships.
4. Find a big time donor and wisely invest the money without tapping into the principle unless their is an emergency.
5. Improve our education ratings. No need for any school to have that as a trump card over us.
6. Invest in football until it can support itself and then pimp the football to donors, students and whoever.
7. Make Tallahassee more friendly to football players and allow us to gain a few favors. (Similar to what the Gators have in Gainesville)
8. Let Florida State become a powerful voter base in Tallahassee; that way the politics don’t ever cross us locally.
9. School of Journalism please.
10. Make Saturdays in the fall an experience.
by Legal_Seminole on Feb 8, 2010 12:38 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I like your ideas.
I’ve also been thinking of practical things FSU can do to increase its funds, academic standing, and fan base. I have to head out now, but I’d like to participate in a discussion at some point. There’s no reason some Seminole fans can’t make a concerted effort to benefit the university.
Is that all?
I don’t mean to be snide, but that’s a pretty lengthy to do list, if the intention is simply the return of football dominance. I think you should be a bit more practical that trying to develop a fanbase on par with the best in the country in their respective sports, and making the town more “friendly” to football players…my point is that most of these ideas are good for the University as a whole, a should be viewed that way. If a school is trying to increase it’s academic standing to boost the football program, then somewhere along the road, priorities have shifted…
YES!!!
The overall goal should be to make FSU one of the best places to go to college. Football, however, is one way to help accomplish that (lots of publicity comes with an elite football team).
It's a long term plan.
It twenty years this is very doable and would allow Florida State to become one of the Elite schools in America.
by Legal_Seminole on Feb 8, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
In*
Dang we really need an edit button.
by Legal_Seminole on Feb 8, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
So your sayin there's a chance!
Sorry, couldn’t resist that. Seriously, though, this is depressing. I’ll run the risk of sounding like a homer and ask, do some of you even believe FSU is going to be successful? All i hear is negativity. Perk up! So our golden oppurtunity to run w/ BB’s success was ruined by none other than BB. So we have to start over. So we’re outgunned financially and have become the butt of many jokes. SO WHAT! The future’s not written in stone people. What should we do just bow to SEC and the even more powerful dollar? I understand being realistic but how bout some freakin positive thinking? Ever heard the saying " if you believe, you can achieve!"
We can be elite but you have to realize that other programs have been around a lot longer then us.
With a solid plan we can get there in twenty years. I’m not saying this plan should be followed to the T but it is a nice guideline to follow. The money issue works itself out if we have passionate people who donate money to the school. I don’t think I am being negative with my post but rather being positive knowing that becoming elite is possible.
by Legal_Seminole on Feb 8, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
No dude,
What you posted wasn’t negative at all! I was indirectly THANKING you for being realistic while also not paraphrasing FSU being 3rd tier dogcrap that never stood a chance!
And I think we said closer to top 10.
Fact is, when operating at peak efficiency, Texas is going to have fundamental advantages over us. So are a lot of other schools. That’s why FSU has to learn how to game the system if we want to win National Championships. For example: scheduling intelligently (And before you old-timers pitch in, that’s not filling up on cupcakes. It is scheduling intelligently.).
Never.
3rd tier was what i was talking about. Jimbo being a lock to follow the almighty dollar to L.S.WHO also.
If you read the thread, then you would remember that 3rd tier is top 15 by FSUn's definition.
Tier = 5 schools.
I disagree with him on Jimbo to LSU.
My computer's going too slow to really pick your brain on this.
Maybe i’m overly optimistic, I just don’t think there’s much of a point to living if you can’t aspire to occupy the #1 spot. Everytime i hear someone say we’re simply beneath UF, i lose a bit more of my lunch. What if BSU succumbed to what everyone said before they played OU? What if everytime someone was told they can’t or they’re not in the same league they believed the hype? Should we all just get fitted for jr. Mao suits now and skip fighting the good fight?
Here's the difference: BSU vs OU was a one-game scenario.
Do I think we can and will beat UF sometimes? OF COURSE. As you say, why would I cheer for FSU if I didn’t think that? Do I think FSU can win a National Championship? Yes, I do.
But in the long run, UF/Bama/Texas will be in a better position to win those titles than FSU will.
Not that it can’t be done. Just that it is inherently more difficult than it would be for these other schools.
Ok, that's logical.
I agree totally with that assessment. I don’t mind facing more resourceful opponents, that just dictates that we must outwork and outthink whenever possible.
The size of the army doesn't win the war...
but if the little guy wants to have a chance, he has to be a lot smarter than the big guy.
You cannot ignore
the implications of other schools that have the attendance to take a huge chunk of money. In the 90s etc. FSU didn’t really have to compete with anyone but Florida for the state revenue pie, but now you UCF (3rd largest school in the country) and USF that are both taking a lot of money away from FSU. That being said, as I have stated on here previously, I believe in the cyclical nature of these things, and believe that FSU will be back sooner than later. And this is from a Gator…
Certainly true however with effort and careful planning
Florida State will be able to easily overcome those obstacles.
by Legal_Seminole on Feb 8, 2010 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
easily?
please explain how overcoming a lack of funding will be easy?
Please remember I am talking about a long term goal.
by Legal_Seminole on Feb 8, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
I understand
that, but you basically laid out a best case scenario for the University. Of course I’m not asking you to develop a strategy for how to achieve this, but it would seem to me a little bit overoptimistic to think that a shift in the University system could be easily overcome….
Depends on how much...
untapped potentail FSU has.
Considering the rednecks that have run it for are now mostly gone (Jim King, TK, Thrasher) I think FSU has a TON of untapped potential.
It is very possible especially in the long term.
As long as FSU works toward it, it’ll happen and notice nothing I listed is far fetched.
by Legal_Seminole on Feb 8, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
Not even a J-school?
The sports columnists of the state’s big dailies are predominantly UF J-school grads. Either that or I’ve been Bianchi’d.
it would help
I’m not a conspiracy theorist but a FSU alum I used to work with was convinced that the only reason anything ever got out about Florida athletes was that it was too big to cover up. Contrarily he believed that everything bad about FSU athletes got released because there wasn’t a media force trying to contain it…I don’t buy it, but we do have a strong media presence in the state…just look at the Sentinel
UF is to FSU what FSU is to UCF/USF
Not worried about them stealing any of our thunder/money
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
they already have though
UCF already receives more state funding…again, it’s freakin huge.
FSU's endowment...
is over 4 times the size of UCFs.
UCF has twice the amount of students.
They aren’t getting even close the money for football.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
You're correct
in pointing out the correlation between athletic success and academic success. If you look at both FSU, and UF they had a substantial increase in the overall academics at both schools in the 90s, and there are statistics that show that after a University wins a championship, they see a huge spike in applications. I do though think you’re underestimating the effect that these other schools will have on the future of athletics in the state. Getting more money from the state for these schools means that the athletic dept at places like FSU and UF will have to generate their own revenue stream. It’s kind of a chicken or egg problem. People donate when you win, but you can’t win if people don;t donate…
UF
Doesn’t spend a state dime on athletics. In fact their athletic money goes into a large pool of money that has actually donated over 50 million to the schools academics. FSU does but it isn’t that much. They already create their own revenue for the programs. Unless the Florida legislature decides to spend 30 million on UCF football a few years in a row they are a non factor.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
I guess you're
correct. And knew that about the athletic depts. but I guess I just see it as a larger issue. If other schools are growing in size, and spending (UCF spends quite a bit) I see the competition getting more fierce….I guess that’s what I’m saying
UCF spends quite a bit compared to the teams in its own conference but not at a BCS level
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
this obviously
isn’t about UCF, but seriously, how are they not winning that conference every year? they outspend everyone, are in Florida, and have a coach with name recognition and they get beat by teams like Marshall, Houston, and Tulsa?
I do not want FSU to blow up
Like UCF. For one, we don’t have the room for the campus to expand. Two, adding 25,000 extra students to FSU might actually break Tallahassee.
Are you saying UCF spends a lot of money on football or all athletics or on academics?
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
they spend a lot
on football. I don’t know what the stats are now, but several years ago, before UMs big raise etc. I remember there being a thing about UCF having the highest paid coaching staff in the state…I remember it because it was so absurd.
Not sure what you saw...
but they aren’t on the map right now.
FSU’s total for all head coaches for all male sports is over 4 million.
UCF’s total for all head coaches for all male sports is 840k.
FSU asst coaches total for all male sports 4.25 million.
UCF asst coaches total for all male sports 1.76 million.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
again it was
a while ago. I think it was right after they hired O’Leary, I believe Zook was still at UF etc….I should just stop since i have article or link but whatever…
No worries.
I do seem to remember some talk about their salaries a while back when they brought in O’Leary.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
really?
I haven’t heard that, but the ath dept at FSU and UF are self sustaining…I seriously doubt though that the UCF dept. brings in enough money to pay for all that they’ve built that last 4 or 5 years (stadium, facilities etc)
Yes, I thought I read that somewhere recently.
I have no clue where. I was hoping someone would be able to verify that for me. I also thought UCF’s stadium was funded entirely from private donations.
Don't think so.
Pretty sure part of Bobby’s came out of state funds. I think Fisher’s does too. And Cards is right below. Don’t think some teams would be able to survive without some state funds.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
There's a reason why
Bobby was consider the highest paid STATE EMPLOYEE. His salary is most def state funded.
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 8, 2010 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
his base state salary was 200k
and the rest was made up with endorsements, performances bonuses and yada. That 200k is still 70k more than Gov Crist
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 8, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
Correct. The rest came from endorsements etc.
I’m trying to find out how much state funds get spent on other instate schools. I’m sure it’s out there somewhere.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
I dont know if its true
but a UF fan recently told me that Urban’s salary is completely funded by boosters
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 8, 2010 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
See some above comments.
Their entire athletic program is funded by UF’s Athletic Association, INC. I don’t know if Urbs whole salary comes from boosters (might but doubt it) but as far as I have been able to find out they don’t spend state dollars on athletics. They only need to spend money that they have generated. In fact the UAA has donated millions to the school’s academics.
Your UF buddy might be getting the the funding in the UAA with the boosters confused.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
Right
I’m sure thats what he meant. He’s kind of country and not sure he would understand the difference
"Kill a fly with an axe"
by SteadfastNole on Feb 8, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
be a better fan
Seriously. How about realie when FSu is operating at peak efficiency and if that’s not NC level, deal with it. Root for the ‘Noles becasue they are trying and because you’re a ‘Nole. Does FSU have to root for NC’s for you to like them?
Oh ok...
I’m kind of new around here, and perhaps a little slow…I’ll give the same little disclaimer I gave last week…As a Gator, I enjoy going to other message boards for a different perspective. When you surround yourself with only your own, things tend to get skewed…if my presence is bothering anyone, I’ll leave.
Not bothering me
I can’t go to other boards though because they aren’t nearly as informative. We joust quite a bit on here too though
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
I like spending time
on Gator boards, don’t get me wrong, but everything is seen through orange and blue glasses, and that gets old. I fancy myself more of a realist than to think that every recruit we have is going to be “the next” fill in the blank…any team site can get that way, but sometimes I just prefer a change of scenery
Nice to know but the point was we need to produce highly paid grads
as well as influential grads.
by Legal_Seminole on Feb 8, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
Revenue is down without a doubt
I am hopeful this changes when FSU begins winning again and I think it will. The lost decade was disastrous in this regard.
Jimbo had a chance to go to Miami with Saban and he turned it down. He could have gotten his foot in the door at that time if he wished. I simply don’t think the NFL appeals to him that much.
I could see LSU going after him. I could also see them going after Pellini who has long standing ties there and he is doing quite a job bringing Nebraska back. Jimbo with a young family however would probably rather them grow up in Tallahassee as opposed to Baton Rouge. Wouldn’t you if you were in the same situation?
I am hopeful that with success FSU may be able to come very close to matching the money other schools come up with. I still say the recruiting area in which FSU sits makes up for some of the revenue problem.
Look what Wake has accomplished with a small school, very little money but a top head coach. It can be done. I do consider FSU a top ten destination school for head coaches.
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
by DocHoliday2 on Feb 8, 2010 12:56 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
The main point is that WF doesnt have the money to be 'consistently' good
Can FSU catch some breaks every couple years and go to a National Title? YES
Can they consistently be in a title hunt like UF, UT and Bama? NO
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
I would answer yes to both...
but add FSU has to be operating at FULL efficiency to do so. No more hiring idiot family members or redneck presidents.
UF and UT
I remember Tebow’s first year as a starter and they were not in contention. I remember after VY left Texas they were not in contention. I hate how everyone gives SEC team so much love. I compare our situation more to USC than any SEC team. Honestly, the ACC is nothing to brag about. It is a solid conference, but FSU should dominate it.
I don't think
these situations are comparable…Texas replaced VY with a RS freshman in McCoy, and finished 13th in the rankings. Tebow’s first year he won the Heisman, and it was the defense that let them down. Florida averaged 40 a game.
Yeah, but how long did these programs stay down?
Texas went back to the NC game 4 years after winning their last one. In the grand scheme,an Ole Miss, or Auburn, or VT simply cannot do that. And u should already know about UF
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
well, it changed a little bit today,
since I re-upped after a lengthy hiatus. I hope everyone on this board has.
My values: I love my wife, admire my dog, and believe very deeply that Bobby Bowden and Paula Dean were separated at birth.
One more thing worth mentioning
FSU dominating the ACC is a quick ticket to a national championship game. Many other schools will not have such a situation especially in the SEC.
I agree most like Oregon’s uniforms but FSU is not far behind in this respect. I like ours better. If we get the indoor practice facility we will be second to none. Jimbo pushing for it leads me to believe he plans on hanging around. He has said himself everything he aspires to in his coaching career can be accomplished at FSU. After observing the man there is nothing about him that leads me to believe he is the type that just blows smoke. He seems pretty genuine to me.
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
Once again, I agree...
especially this one…
“FSU dominating the ACC is a quick ticket to a national championship game. Many other schools will not have such a situation especially in the SEC.”
Great Post
Combine Jimbo’s cupcake scheduling philosophy with ACC play and we have a desirable path to football championships. JF will build a team that consistently goes 10-0 regular season, has 1 dogfight with UF to win, wins ACC championship game and then plays in BCS games most years.
JF could have created an opportunity for himself somewhere in the SEC but opted for the path of least resistance and long-term viability here.
This post was totally hijacked by this "built in advantages" argument...
but there has do be a cut off when it comes to money. It old phrase “What can’t you do with a 100 million that you can do with a billion?” So if school A brings in x amount, and school b brings in less than 1/2 of that, but they can both do above and below the table the same thing in regards to facilities, staff, support, and recruits, what does the extra matter? Money is important, but we’re putting far to much importance on the total amounts and not enough on how much is enough. Every SEC school is part of that contract, but does any of us think Ole Miss, Miss St, or S Carolina is in the same “tier” as FSU?
"If lessons were learned in defeat, our team is getting a great education." -Murray Warmath
Agreed
Money only goes so far. If money was everything, the Lakers, Yankees, and Redskins would win every year. A lot of it is coaching, and unfortunately FSU has had bad coaching this whole decade. Then another big part is player evaluation. Those last seem to have been fixed.
"Money isn't everything"
Number 1, the NFL has a salary cap that encourages parity therefore the Redskins should be removed from the equation.
The Yankees and Lakers may not win every year, but they’re in the discussion. You know who isn’t in the discussion? The Royals, Pirates, Nationals, Thunder, and Grizzlies.
So if you don’t spend like the big boys, you aren’t going to consistently compete. Nor should you expect to.
I think NaGa has a valid point that once you reach a certain threshold, extra revenue may not matter much.
I should have just waited for you reply. All well. maybe reading it twice will help.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
Salary caps do nothing more than transfer money from players to owners, there is no evidence that they actually work to encourage parity. In fact, there is more praity in baseball than the NBA or the NFL.
365 days, until I change my ways.
Agreed 100%
The money is going into someone’s pockets whether that be to the owners or players
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
Lakers and Yankees...
The two most likely to compete for a championship every year you mean? Just because they don’t win it every year doesn’t mean that the money they spent hasn’t put them in reasonable position to do so. Pro Football has caps.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
You need money *AND* solid leadership to be consistently successful
It is not about winning every year it is about having a shot to win every year
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
The last question in the roundtable opened this discussion.
“How do you all see ACC schools competing with schools in the SEC and Big 12 for recruits?”
It’s a legitimate response to that question to discuss where FSU stands nationally. No hijack.
The hijack of this thread was all of our tv conversation.
Miss State, Ole Miss, and S. Carolina have much weaker talent bases
Thats the second part of the “Tier” equation
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 8, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
You must admit
It has been a long time since recruits looked at our depth chart and bolted. This will take some getting used to.
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
When I saw the chart, I didn't think ours was much better than most of the other classes.
Then I read the article and the “bottom 10” and looked at the chart again. Made a huge difference in impression.
Am I missing something?
Everyone is talking about how much money we don’t have, and how we are Tier 3 to the likes of UF, UT, USC, Bama bla bla bla.
I get it we will NEVER be as wealthy and UF, UT, Bama. We will never be the #1 school in FL. We will never be tier 1.
So what?
We HAVE enough money to be #1 in the ACC. We have a great talent base to be #1 in the ACC and with coaching compete with UF. We don’t have to ever play UT, USC or Bama unless its for the national championship. Meanwhile UF and Bama will have to go through each other to get to title games. USC will most likely suffer from some sort of probation and UCLA is beginning to move in the right direction along with other PAC 10 teams to make their road to NC harder. Texas will always have OU and maybe Nebraska to hold them back. We get a shot at UF every year and although they may get the #1 recruiting class we can get top 5 and compete with them as long as we keep good coaches around.
So we do have an easier road to National Championships than most of the big money schools, besides Ohio State, but they have proven incapable of competing when they get there and since they don’t have a title game I see us with win over UF and ACCCG jumping them any time we are both in the discussion. With National Championship appearances and wins we will get enough money to dominate the ACC and have plenty of exposure to keep recruits interested. I think Jimbo has seen this and that’s why he stuck around. If you get the kind of recruiters that we have to run the State of Miami (even with a mere 7-6 record and half a staff) and you start putting up 10 win seasons, which will happen as soon as Jimbo can fix our scheduling, we will be in the picture for BSC NC every year even if we are not “tier 1”.
Sorry if its the optimist in me that makes me blind but I do think that our location, weaker conference, and great current coaching staff can keep us competing for BCS year in and year out.
by BS37FSU on Feb 8, 2010 3:23 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
I agree
We do have a lot a favorable winds blowing in our direction. And if we can get hyped up and beat UF and win the ACC every year or two, we can stay in the BCS, the limelight, and in 18 year olds heads.
by freshcollegeboy on Feb 8, 2010 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
not the least of which is that we are
becoming the media darlings once again!!!!!
yippee
So do I
Perception can change rapidly if and when FSU wins the ACC beats a SEC champion UF in the season finale and plays for a national championship. Such a situation also will spur recruiting and slow up losing recruits to Gainesville.
We were getting most of whoever we wanted in the 90’s. I do recall Spurrier publicly complaining about how FSU could possibly recruit five highschool All Americans at one position and convince them all they would play.
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
Damn Bud your being negative today lol.
I see where you are coming from though, I would be scared too if UGA hired someone like Smart. We seem to own the South Ga area now for some reason. Is Richt a bad recruiter? What is the deal there?
Re: coaching. Here is what needs to happen.
A) Les Miles gets fired at the end of this upcoming season
2) Smart goes to LSU and resurrects the progam
D) Richt wins 10 games, one of which is the UF game
Then
A) LSU becomes more relevant and possibly beats UF every couple of years and then Jimbo to LSU becomes a moot point
2) Georgia fan continue thinking Richt is one player, one play, or one game away and we keep stealing GA recruits.
D) Jimbo is a happy camper and stays at FSU indefinitely or at least until the NFL comes calling.
This would be my perfect scenario.
I am probably wrong, but I have my doubts Jimbo would go to the NFL. Again, I am probably wrong.
>-----:----:------>Spear 'em then Scalp 'em
Add on..
A) Miami struggles going 5-7 but beats USF
2) USF collapses again in the 2nd half of the season, culminating in that end of season loss to bowl-ineligible Miami
D) Or, if 2) does not occur, USF wins the Big East and Holtz is a one-and-done and replaces a retiring Paterno at Penn State
No Jimbo to LSU
a) Wife’s family is closer to tally than baton rouge
2)Bonuses for ACCG & BCS > LSU base salary which he will be like clockwork very soon, Phat raise
d) Loved FSU since forever
IV) Won’t make kids move around
It would have to purely be a money grab because
I see his best chance of winning consistently and playing in a BCS bowl games at FSU. The path is easier at ACC vs. the SEC where he would have to go through Alabama, UF, UGA, Tenn to win the SEC or get an at large.
Jimbo's sentimental too bite for 2 more MIL
After the state tax thing, raise, restructured bonus (profit sharing if you will), double sounds like a reach. Unless you’re convinced (and I haven’t caught up on all the threads here yet) that LSU has THAT much to spend. The difference b/t 4 & 6 MIL may not outweigh his dedication. He seems senitmental enough to plant some serious family roots in Tally. Losing and/or abrasive boosters would have to wear him down 1st and neither seem likely.
Sorry, should have hit reply
and subject should’ve been Jimbo is too sentimental to, not sentimental too. Anyway, a fixture in the ACCG will equalize the SEC TV time thing. i don’t think i’m being a blind optimist which I had been during the lost decade. Gut feeling is he’s here for the long haul and things are gonna be good for a long time. FINALLY… We’re fresh off NCAA issues and the character that’s here won’t allow that to happen like it will w/in 3 years with FU’s thugs.
Maybe
I don’t know. Could FSU pay anyone 4 million a year? Is the money there? I do recall reading here the booster saying if Fisher did not get the DC of his choice it would not be because FSU lost a bidding war.
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
Not base but with bonuses probably
If we win, booster money should surge even more then it is. Still bowden loving skeptics with their checkbooks out but waiting.. But then again he might dictate new money go into the infrastructure early on. Indoor practice fields, new player’s dorm, even better nutritionists, and other saban recommended program building causes. At least until after new facilities are built and there’s excess dough coming in with less to spend – then he’ll say pay up and sitting pretty with young Fisher ready to be FSU’s QB.
4 mil before or after a BCS championship?
If we are routinely in BCS bowls and have won a title I can see him getting 4 mil from FSU. Don’t know if FSU goes 4 mil without a BCS title in his back pocket.
by osceolafan850 on Feb 8, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
2.5 mil base after winning 2 straight ACCCGs and 1 trip to BCSCG
SEC should start beating each other up again so it won’t take long to get to BCSCG. 3 mil base after winning one. 4 (after bonus) everytime he wins another. I’m pretty low on the booster totem pole and i’m just throwing these numbers out there based on fair market vs available funds. But after 2 great seasons the funds will jump again. The pro-bowden people (which is not me) will concede right around the time the econonmy turns around (which I think will be after this Nov’s elections :-). Just a gut feeling. And no I don’t have any lottery numbers or stock tips to suggest. Just my 2 cents.
Not a step function
but a steady increase in funds. That’s not breaking news.. Anyway, there’s a lot of pissed off alum not forking it over yet. But if that NSD signing day part is any indication, JF & co will sell this program which will sell itself shortly bringing the mad cash in and JF will get his cut, but like you said, after he’s proven he’s worthy, which we all know he will.
If Jimbo finds a better job/offer, which currently includes LSU, he should take it.
That is the point of a career; to take up opportunities for advancements. I agree LSU is a better situation than FSU is right now. LSU has an entire state to themselves. They are already stocked with talent on their roster. Their coach may be a fraud, but their player development is light years ahead of what was going on here during the ‘lost decade’.
All I care is that Jimbo stockpiles quality talent here and teaches the players well, during his tenure no matter how short or long it is.
I don’t understand all the hand-wringing about how LSU is destined to pick our pockets
and steal Jimbo away from FSU. FSU’s current program has made a quantum leap since December. The current staff is not only state-of-the-art "process" leaders, they are excellent X and O coaches, some of the most "high energy" young leaders in the college game, and as a whole, are some of the best recruiters in the nation. LSU’s recent resurgence can be attributed to their unique brand of strength and conditioning training. FSU recognized this, and hired a key disciple of LSU’s renowned S&C system. FSU is getting players "off their back," as we are implementing a radically improved type of pro-style functional training, specific to each athlete’s specific performance requirement. As far as tradition, how can you say LSU’s is better than FSU’s? Let’s don’t forget that FSU got stuck with a terrible 6-year consecutive-year contract to play LSU in Baton Rouge in the 1980’s. FSU whipped LSU like they were Duke, 5 out of 6 games we played them!
I think the issue is more about the time frame rather than FSU versus LSU.
No doubt we were better than LSU in the 80s. I was too young to see these games, but I remember people older than me telling me about how everyone was scared to play LSU at night because of the “strange things happen at LSU during the night” aura. Yet, the Noles were not phased by that stuff.
I believe the Jimbo to LSU vs. FSU situation is predicated on Miles getting canned within the next three years. We are just now implementing the overhaul of our program. LSU has been doing the things we are now implementing for the last decade. If you look at strength and conditioning alone; let us assume that our new S&C program is equivalent to LSU’s for argument sake. It will take us 3-4 years to field players that look like LSU’s. The tigers have seniors and rs juniors that have already spent 3-4 years in an elite S&C program. It will take at least another good recruiting class to build the type of quality depth that already exists at LSU. So for the next couple of years LSU will be in a better position than FSU. It will be easier for Fisher to elevate a program that is at critical mass than to build FSU to critical mass and then elevate our program.
As far as tradition, I love our Noles, but the tigers have 2 BCS trophies from this decade. Their name is more synonomous with success than ours. Now as it was discussed above Florida may produce more elite athletes than LA. However, LSU gets exclusive rights to the LA players. We have to fight and claw to get what we can. We are not in a bad position, but compared to LSU it is less favorable. Then if UGA gets a good coach who starts to give us problems in South Georgia, our position becomes less favorable. LSU also can sell the SEC brand that ESPN has brainwashed our nation with.
Now things might change a lot within the next three years. Miles could stay, UGA gets stuck in mud, UM president ok with 8-9 wins and no ACCCG, Myer joins a cult…. FSU gets to a BCS bowl for consecutive years then roles could be reversed. However, there are a lot of “ifs” and it is more likely that some of these situations go against our favor.
I agree that LSU is presently better equipped to win NOW
Provided Miles is gone within the next year or so. Due to his obvious shortcomings as a coach, and the fact LSU’s hold over Louisiana talent has showed weakness in the past few years. That may be for the best, seeing how Miles seems to enjoy mis-managing talent. I know people like to have foresight and like to anticipate things happening before they actually occur. But lets see Jimbo prove himself as a viable coaching commidity before we send him off to LSU with that 5 year 30 million deal.
Excellent points in regards to the S&C aspect. LSU has benefitted greatly from coach Moffit and his system. I think player development is something people have been neglecting to mention in terms of how important it is in our hopefull ascent. But even though LSU players have been in that system for years, our top end talent (Especially on D) has outperformed LSU alumni in the pros for the most part. Has LSU produced an Ernie Sims? At this point, would anyone ever think Glenn Dorsey would ever be able to produce at the level of a Darnell Dockett?
On LSU’s national title team (2007) They had defensive lineman such as Kirston Pittman, Dorsey, Francois, and Tyson Jackson. The only LB I can think of is Ali Highsmith, and their secondary consisted of Chevis Jackson,Zenon, Jones, and Harry Coleman. FSU can counter with lost decade defenders such as Dockett, Travis Johnson, Brod Bunkley, Lawrence Timmons, Kamerion Wimbley, Sims, and Geno Hayes (who was a runt in Tally), Bryant McFadden, Antonio Cromartie. I know our guys are a bit older and have had more of a chance to prove themselves. But has Chad Lavalis had the impact of Dockett or Bunkley? Marcus Spears has done okay (God bless MH) , but no LSU linebacker has had the impact of a Sims or Wimbley (Hayes is only 22 and will be a big contributor for the Bucs IMO). I know Chevis Jackson gets playing time, but Tony Carter has had more impact than Zenon at this point (And Alfonso Smith evidentallly, smirk)
Measuring defensive back contemporaries: McFadden and Cromartie have performed better than the LSU trio of Webster, Daniels, and Randall Gay I believe. I say all that to say Jimbo has to be intrigued by the chance of working with and developing the high caliber athletes FSU can still attract. That athleticism combined with proper coaching and strength and conditioning has a high end payoff at the end. If Jimbo didn’t believe that, I don’t think he would still be here. Even the grand pessimist himself FSUn has said he really likes the amount of athletes we have on D. A big drawback at FSU is the constant recruiting competition there is for that talent. IMHO he will depart for greener pastures (NFL I believe).But he will have to restore FSU to a degree of national relevance to get what he ultimately wants. This is his first HC job and he’s too young not to have ambitions past FSU. You made good points that I hadn’t thought of before about S&C for certain though
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 9, 2010 1:18 AM EST up reply actions
Good point about our talent cealing in FL possibly being higher than LA.
We do have a ton more people to select from in FL. I think it is import to remember that when we recruited the guys you mentioned our recruiting classes looked more like the current Texas and UF classes.
Now if we start pulling in 6, 5* kids and double digit numbers of 4* kids in one recruiting class like we did in 2002, then I’ll reevaluate everything I said. Jimbo probably finds it favorable to stay at FSU, much more favorable.
Just not true.
Now as it was discussed above Florida may produce more elite athletes than LA. However, LSU gets exclusive rights to the LA players. We have to fight and claw to get what we can. We are not in a bad position, but compared to LSU it is less favorable.
Going back to 2007, LSU only signs about 55% of the 4/5* players out of Louisiana. The last 3 years they’ve landed 7 each year out of about 12 per year. That’s anything but “exclusive”.
This past year, with only half of a staff and a lousy past 4 years, we recruited 8 recruits out of Florida that were 4/5*. That was out of 50 possible. I think our recruiting base is more favorable than theirs.
Good points about LSU.
Using rivals we have 10, 5* or 4 * players. Assume UGA and UM get decent coaches. Using rivals Telvin, Harris, Luc, and LJ are originally from areas that we would be in danger loosing ground on because of the previously mentioned schools. That leaves us with 6 of the 10 left. It was awesome that we got the Christians, but we can’t rely on legacy/pseudolegacy kids each year. That leaves us with 4, 5*or 4* kids we would be guaranteed to get. That is a lot less than the the 7, 5* or 4* LA kids LSU has locked.
Now I think even with the good coaches at UM and UGA we should be able to pull 1/4 of the kids we are battling for so you might bump up our count from 4 to 5 or even 6. But then you have to account for LSU’s ability to go into TX and Miss to pull 5*and 4* kids. Thus LSU has a better shot of ensuring the pipeline of elite talent.
I know I only used this year as an example but it illustrates the problematic scenario we might be faced with. I think we could still be very good in the ACC, but we would have a harder time achieving what LSU could if they maxed out their potential.
I wondered how long it would take before someone gets everyone on the edge of their seats trying to get Jimbo a raise at our emotional expense.
is there a purpose to causing alarm?
No
Jimbo’s opportunities for long-term success are better at FSU. He can average 10-wins a year here. If he coached to Bowden’s age (not saying he should or would want to), he’d have the career wins record. Every year LSU faces Bama, Auburn, Ark., UF, and the other occasionally good SEC teams. It would be a real struggle to win the SEC title on a regular basis.
FSU’s most consistent divisional rival figures to be Clemson. Who knows what VT will do after Beamer leaves. UM could very well be our primary roadblock to relatively frequent ACC titles and BCS bowls. The right coach can have UNC, GT, etc. playing well for brief time periods, but none have proven able to maintain greatness consistently over an extended period. Yet, the ACC is now a solid conference, so you can’t really pooh-pooh it (I’ve seen stats posted around TN about FSU’s highly-rated schedule over the last few years).
Jimbo may want to go to LSU if given the opportunity – he’s been there, he may have liked it. But I don’t think it offers him a better career opportunity. FSU has proven it can be the breeding ground of a Hall of Fame coaching career – and I think Jimbo would be hard-pressed to find a better overall situation.
Oh, plus the point of a career is to find something you enjoy doing and get paid to do. If Jimbo is happy in Tallahassee, he should stay there. If not, he should look for “advancement” until he is happy. Jobs are like relationships: a new option might look better on paper, but in reality it just might not be a good fit. Find a place where you’re happy, and you can accomplish great things. Personally, I hope Jimbo and his family are happy in Tallahassee.
I agree with you that his path with LSU would be tougher than with FSU.
However, I look at it like this: He may have bigger battles in the SEC but he will have protected resources to do battle with. Miles despite his poor decisions that are costing them games is still able to haul in instate recruits and some from TX. If Jimbo does as good as Miles or better he should be able to protect his recruiting territory despite bama and Texas being good and in close proximity. Now FSU has an easier path in the ACC but in the worst case scenario: 1) UGA gets Smart/Mushchamp and we get cut off from the elite recruits in South Gerorgia, 2) UM gets a real coach we have problems with the south FL pipeline. With our remaining territory we still have other wolves to fend off. We are then left to north Fl which might be fine but we can’t keep bama and clemson from coming in and taking guys like richardson and barnes. We are at risk for multiple teams coming in and taking different parts of our territorial base. It is not like we are just fighting one school.
FSU did produce a Hall of Fame coach, but I think the conditions which allowed this to happen do not currently exist. Otherwise that hall of fame coach would probably be still here.
I do not know what Jimbo defines ‘happiness’ as. Perhaps FSU makes him happy and he will stay.
I would normally agree with FSU > LSU as a path to success
However, LSU won the nat champ with THREE losses! That is the strength of the SEC, you can (and often do) lose one game in conference and still have the chance to win a nat champ. For every Auburn going 13-0 and getting snubbed, there’s an LSU (who lost to Auburn that year) UF (lost to LSU, lost to Ole Miss) that has at least one loss in conference and still has enough meat on their schedule to win Nat Champs.
While I’m divided over whether FSU is better for Jimbo than LSU in the long run, there is no question that you can succeed in SEC at one of I’d say six schools (LSU, Bama, Auburn, UF, UGA, UT) and compete for Nat Champs.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Feb 9, 2010 9:08 AM EST up reply actions
No, the point is to be happy and fulfilled.
Man this place is getting depressing with all the talk about how every other school is better than FSU, and FSU can’t compete, and FSU is doomed because of this and that, wah, wah, wah. I get being realistic and not being a homer, but good grief, it can go too far. Some of the statements here about FSU’s position in the CFB world and future prospects for success are based purely on speculation but reported as absolute certainties. Puh Lease. When I read threads like this it makes me want to stay away from this site. Not because I don’t want to hear the “truth” but because it is a lot of baseless negativism.
There is a lot talk about all the inherent advantages Alabama has, and how they are advantages FSU can never overcome. C-R-A-P.
Bama has always had a lot of money yet they sucked for years after Stallings and before Saban got there. What did their money get them then? It is all about the coach they got. Not their money or “tier” or any of that crap. It is Saban. Auburn has almost as much money as Bama. So What? They had Tommy Tuberville and it got them nothing.
I appreciate Bud lives in Tuscaloosa and is in thick of Bama country but HE has only been there in the Saban era as Bama was peaking. I was born there and went to school there for four years. The only reason Bama is back on top now is because of SABAN…money had nothing to do with it other than they had the money to pay Saban what he wanted to come there.. When Saban leaves and if Bama does not replace him with an equal coaching talent then they will go right back to where they were….like LSU and Les Miles.
So lets not give up the ship and relegate FSU to nothingness and “also ran” status. There are too many variables that come into play besides money (which seems to be the main ingredient for a programs success in Buds (and others) P.O.V). A HS recruit doesnt look at Forbes list of how much money a school’s athletic department has when making a choice.
Success depends on 2 main things: coaching acumen (ability to develop talent and turn it into success on the filed on gameday)and the coaching staffs ability to get top talent. PERIOD. whan a program has those two factors it doesnt matter how much “money” a program has. Where money has a bearing on tthose 2 factors is up for debate.
Bama sucked because they made poor head coaching hires
primarily because they had to get one of Bear’s boys, no?
EXACTLY..but you admit that all of Bama's money and tradtion and recruiting base
got them NOTHING between Stallings and Saban. It was the COACHING that made the difference (hiring Bears Boys is irrelevant: if a coach in incompetent he is incompetent, no matter his lineage/tutelage). It has been your refrain (and others) that FSU lacks what other schools like Bama possess that put them at the “Top of the Foodchain”; primarily MONEY. What if Saban had told bama “no thanks”? Would they necessarily be where they are today? MAYBE…but not CERTAINLY. It all depends on the coach they would have hired.
It is ALL Coaching and Talent. It does not necessarily mean that the schools with the most money will always have the best coaching or be able to sign the best talent. It helps pay for the best coaching, true. But paying a coach a lot of money doesn’t make him the best. Saban happens to be one of the best and bama is reaping the fruits of his ability. good for them…for now.
FSU has great coaches and the ability to land top talent to win championships…recruits dont look at our balance sheet before putting on our cap on signing day.
by Egret on Feb 9, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Cannot argue with resources arguement
The SEC schools are just better equipped from a financial standpoint and there’s nothing to be done about that. They can simply pay more $ than any other conference. UM on the other hand, is a wounded duck waiting to be shot, damn near. The fact that they have no money (Can’t afford to hire a great coach or build great facilities) and the stricter academic guidelines imposed by Donna Shalala inherently cuts them off from a lot of local talent. SoFla can be an FSU stronghold if we are to make inroads in Miami, keep TC HS as our PBC feeder school, while keeping a strong presence in the muck. That should give us a good enough supply of SoFla talent to work with. Thats easier said than done, but thats a fight we have to win most times.
We can ill afford to get into firefights with UGA in SoGa IMO. We have to save those for the kids who are considering both FSU and UF. That will tax the staff enough. So if UGA does hire a coach that can cut off the SoGa area, we indeed may be screwed in that regard.
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 9, 2010 1:55 AM EST reply actions
MMM... I could go for some roasted duck right now.
I agree SoFla is going to be key for us, more than ever if the UGA thing plays out against us. It would be nice if we could some how facilitate the fighting between UGA and UF. But I think UGA would come after our guys first… easier target.
LSU is Fading, their run is over… and it’s not primarily Les Miles’ fault
LSU had a good run in four of five years between 2003 – 2007…and although Jimbo Fisher’s offensive genius had a lot to do with LSU’s successful run, the fact the LSU was fortunate-enough to catch BOTH Alabama and UF simultaneously slumping, had more to do with LSU’s sudden but short-lived rise than anything else. But now, since both Alabama and UF have regained their footing, LSU will continue to be an afterthought on both the national scene and inside the SEC. In the last two years LSU’s opponents have hung back-to-back five and four loss seasons. They have not won a single game against UF, Alabama or Ole Miss, for gosh sakes, in the last two years. Now with a rising Auburn, LSU will likely drop even further. Let’s be real, LSU was a flash in the pan and their run is over. FSU has LSU’s Offensive Coordinator responsible for transforming their traditionally mundane offense (20 ppg the year before Jimbo arrived), into a high-octane championship offense, averaging over 30 points in his six years there. Replacing Les Miles will not tilt the scales back to LSU’s favor with the heavy headwinds of the recent Tide and Gator surges. Not even Jimbo could save them.
I strongtly disagree
They have the resources
They have the talent pool
Now all they need is the leadership
It's a beautiful day in Tallahassee
LSU has Nothing that Tennessee or Georgia Doesn't Have
You could say the same about a number of schools. Heck, all FSU lacked in the past 10 years was leadership or we may have been able to add another 2 or 3 national titles. LSU will fade into irrelevance with or without Les Miles.
Um.... don't group Tennessee with them. The available talent is not the same.
FSU lacks cash. They don’t have it.
I agree/disagree
LSU was fortunate in their timing, but the main component in their success was Nick Saban. I don’t see them making a serious run at a championship in the near future. Texas already has a pretty strong recruiting presence in LA, and I just don’t think Miles is a great coach. LSU fans now have their expectations a bit beyond where they should be. They have perennialy been an also ran in the SEC, and Saban changed that. He’s gone, and while I don’t think they’ll return to mediocre status, I also don’t see them regaining elite status either. I must say, that I’m surprised to see so much on here about you guys being afraid to lose Jimbo. In my dealings with most FSU fans, the verdict is still out on him as a coach, so I guess I just think it’s a little premature to worry about him leaving for more money elsewhere…
Alabama being weak at the time didn't hurt LSU either...
"If lessons were learned in defeat, our team is getting a great education." -Murray Warmath
Agree, especially with UF and Alabama rising
When LSU is down, many top programs routinely raid their talet. FSU was good at picking their pockets. Wasn’t FSU-great, Warrick Dunn, from LA???
Georgia and LSU
are in an eternal battle for 3rd tier SEC with UF and Bama now the ruling class. What should worry UGA and LSU the most is resurgence of Auburn and Arkansas…..Richt and Miles will be gone in 2 years
"You're either carrying a spear, or running from it"
by BigSpearDiplomacy on Feb 9, 2010 9:38 AM EST up reply actions
Tennessee
as well. Right now Florida and Bama are obviously the elite, but just like the hierarchy in the state of Florida these things tend to cycle around. Nothing is permanent in college football, especially with so many coaching changes. If Meyer or Saban leave both of those programs will be scrambling to remain at the top, and one or two successive good classes from some like Auburn and they’re right there competing. The SEC is incredibly cyclical, and if a program like Florida who is stocked with talent can’t offer a top recruit playing time, they can just sign with UT/UGA/LSU etc…I do believe that the SEC as a whole holds a recruiting edge because guys want to play in the conference. If not for Florida or Bama, then another team that gets to play them.
The verdict IS still out on Jimbo as a HC. He's proven he can teach offensive football
Especially after taking a 3* legacy kid and molding him a legit 1st-2nd round NFL prospect.The good thing is, he almost HAS to restore FSU to national relevance in order to advance his career to the level he desires. It’s a new day and age in CFB and we as noles better get used to it, because no coach will be at a school long term (Saban won’t be in Bama forever either),. Fisher has to have significant success in the mainstream media’s eyes (They don’t know and don’t care about the economic disadvantages FSU faces)or else his stint will be deemed a failure and he won’t be able to command a SEC or NFL type salary. I personally believe Jimbo has his eyes on the pro ranks long term. His offensive system is much more compatible to the NFL than Meyer’s and Saban has already sailed that ship before
by westcoastnolefan on Feb 9, 2010 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
Unless Miles steps back form actively coaching and he hires the AMAZING asst coaches to get the job done
and take credit for their work.
These inevitable down cycles we keep hearing about
They are usually the result of coaching changes and poor hiring decisions. LSU gets down because of the Mike Archer and Gerry DeNardo Lester Miles moments.
I don’t know why so many think every coach aspires to the NFL. Obviously Saban found it was not his cup of tea as did Spurrier. Jimbo may well have figured this out before going to Miami with Saban as he stayed in the college ranks. Maybe the process doesn’t work too well in the NFL.
Why do some of us worry about losing Fisher/ Some of us recognize a good thing when we see it I guess. Not many new coaches can bring in a bevy of coaches with them like Trickett, Hdson, Stoops, Coley and Gran. It certainly leads me to believe he is going to be around for awhile. Coaches of this magnitude don’t usually congregate around a coach they think will be leaving the following year.
These coaches I believe realize they are going to produce some major surprises in Tallahassee.
" Fisher’s approach to building a winner is lifted from Saban’s playbook. Right down to the terminology such as becoming more "process oriented" as opposed to "results oriented."
" Nick and I are friends," he said. "That guy is one of the best football coaches I’ve ever been around. God knows he’s brilliant. … A lot of the things he believes are a lot of things I believe. We’re very similar!
The process begins!
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