Florida State's Tournament Dreams Are Dashed As Comeback Falls Short Against Gonzaga
by Bud Elliott on Mar 20, 2010 12:42 PM EDT
in FSU Basketball
263 comments
Florida State lost to Gonzaga 67-60 last night in Buffalo. The season is done.
The two obvious factors in this game were Gonzaga's tremendous shooting and the refs. The men in stripes called the game tighter than a-- well, you know what. Alabi and Singleton were quickly on the bench and it became obvious that the refs, 2 of whom hailed from the Horizon and Atlantic Sun conferences were not going to allow physical play. Add to that Gonzaga, already a good shooting team, shot the lights out in the first half.
As you can see, Gonzaga shot the lights out. Only 5 times this season did an opponent have a better offensive game against the Noles: @ Ohio State, @ Duke, Maryland, @ Clemson, and the NC STate game. Gonzaga's 53.6% shooting was incredible. But what really stands out is that Gonzaga shot 10 more free throws than Florida State. FSU needed Chris Singleton and Solomon Alabi to have big games and the refs just didn't allow for physical play, quickly calling 2 fouls on each. Within the first few minutes of the game it was clear to see Florida State was in trouble. This team isn't made to play a non-contact game of horse. For its part, Florida State had it's best ball-handling game of the year, turning the ball over only 12.5% of the time. And FSU was tremendous on the defensive glass, grabbing a rebound on 78% of Gonzaga's misses. But give Gonzaga credit. They were the better team for the style of play that was allowed last night in Buffalo.
With that said, give Gonzaga credit for taking advantage of its opportunities and having a shooting performance for the ages.
While this loss hurts, this season has to be considered a success when measured against pre-season expectations. We'll have more later in the coming weeks, but the future of this team looks bright and FSU has to be considered squarely in the top half of ACC basketball programs.
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I agree with you Bud
This loss was painful, but the season as a whole exceeded most preseason expectations. While I don’t like Hamilton just as much as the next guy, I do not agree with those people who are calling for his head. While the progress has been slow over the 7 years he has been here, there hasn’t been any regression. Many people were predicting that at the beginning of the year since we lost Toney Douglas and are a young team. However that was not the case as we finished 10-6 in the ACC. I do think that he should hire an assistant coach that knows offense and can teach the players fundamentals so we can have a team that can break a high school teams full court press without turning the ball over. However, I am excited for next year, especially if Alabi is smart and returns. That will help give us the continuity and experienced depth that we have been missing with the early departures of players like Al Johnson and Von Wafer in the past, and hopefully get us a Tourney win or two.
by RollNole5 on Mar 20, 2010 1:21 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
"This loss was painful, but the season as a whole exceeded most preseason expectations"
With respect….this is just another example of how this fan base has embraced mediocrity. jmho
by Class of '71 on Mar 20, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think that having reasonable expectations constitutes embracing mediocrity.
I assure you I was thoroughly pissed after the game, but when looking at the season as a whole, as a rational fan, you have to admit the team exceeded expectations
No, as a rational fan, I do not have to admit that.
I would say it met expectations.
I expected to be top 5 in the ACC. I figured North Carolina might fall to 3rd or so, Duke would be good, maybe Clemson or Wake Forest would finish above us and then a 4th darkhorse team would inevitably outperform expectations (like a Maryland or Virginia Tech this year).
I expected to make the NCAAT. We lost our top scorer and the conference’s best defender. But we returned like 90% of the rest of our team. We had two (2) 5* players, one a projected 2010 lottery pick, another a possible late 2nd round 2010 pick (and considered a 1st round lock in the 2011 draft) who would be returning as well as bringing in a 5* freshman who was considered a 1st rounder in the 2011 draft as well.
I sure didn’t expect to be blown out by Ohio State and Florida. Didn’t expect to be swept by NC State, Maryland and Clemson. Didn’t expect us to barely have more field goals than turnovers in the Old Spice Classic.
I expected to see improvement on offense. I expect improvement in areas that were lacking the previous year. Our offense is not improving. It’s actually regressing and has been for several years, and it was never great to begin with.
I did hope we’d make a run at conference title in the ACCT (at least get back to the semifinals) and win a game in the NCAAT. I thought if Snaer was as good as billed, Alabi improved from last year to this year as much as he did his first year to last year, Kitchen played as solidly this year as he did down the stretch last year, Singleton improved his offensive game a little and Gibson beefed up some, to go along with a few lucky breaks, we could be a sweet sixteen team. Honestly, none of that last sentence was expecting much. I think it’s entirely realistic to expect moderate improvements in players from one year to the next.
What were your expectations?
As far as hiring an offensive assistant, he already has Stan Jones. That’s his thing. Hamilton called him one of the best in the business when he hired him and has hired him throughout his career at nearly every stop.
Do you demand improvements on offense? What if our offense is still lousy next year? You hope we win a game or two next year, but what are your expectations?
Jimbo talks about PROCESS all the time. Our process in basketball sucks. Process leads to good results. We have a bunch more wins now than with Robinson, but how ugly do we look each and every game? Ok, so our process is bad, but is it improving? It’s alright if it’s bad as long as it’s being corrected and improving. You cannot expect our results to get any better than they’ve been the last 4-5 years if our process doesn’t improve. And, as I already said, our offensive efficiency has been doing the exact opposite of improving the last several years.
When do you hold a coach accountable for not getting the most out of his players? I’m pleased with our “results” this season. I’m pleased with the “direction” of the program. I am not pleased with how we are getting them and getting there and have no faith we can continue to improve by simply doing the status quo.
Our increase in wins is directly related to our improved recruiting, not due to Hamilton’s quality coaching. Recruiting is definitely a vital part of any college program; not taking that away from Hamilton. But he’s simply recruiting long, athletic players. Pomeroy says height correlates much more with defensive prowess than it does with offensive efficiency. So, simply by recruiting tall players, Hamilton improves the defense. The reason we are the #1 defensive team in the nation isn’t because of Hamilton’s coaching ability but because we are the tallest team in the nation. Since height isn’t near as important on offense, is it any wonder our offense struggles? If height was more beneficial to offense than it was defense, I would expect our offense to be really good and our defense to be mediocre.
Hamilton isn’t going anywhere. He’s signed on for 4 more years or so. He’s making $1.5M per. No way we cut that short. I also doubt he gets rid of his go to man, Stan, in the offseason. Maybe one of the other coaches goes. Who knows? They all seem to have had pretty good success at their respective positions in the past so I have no idea why our offense is so “pitiful” (thanks, Len Elmore). If we wanted to get rid of Hamilton it should’ve been after the 2007-08 season where we flopped in the 1st round of the NIT. But, that same offseason, after our flop, Wetherell said, verbatim, “I don’t care if we make the NCAA Tournament. Coach has our team competing. He has our kids graduating and staying out of trouble.” Well, damn, if that doesn’t illustrate our LOFTY expectations I don’t know what does.
Besides, I don’t know who we’d go after. While I think we CAN get a better coach than Hamilton (and no, I’m not talking about us swiping a Coach K from Duke or the like), I’m just not sure we would. With his salary, though, we could easily pay a mid major coach who consistently wins his conference to come here. We could lure away a good coach at a “small” BCS school. We could hire a top assistant off a major basketball power. I think Hamilton makes much more than market value.
For now I think we’re stuck. Stuck with Hamilton. Stuck on the cusp of almost competing for ACC titles. Stuck on the cusp of almost winning an NCAA tournament game. It could be worse. I’m glad it’s not. But I’m not exactly happy with being stuck. I have realistic expectations. If they aren’t met, I will criticize the coach. I’m allowed to ask, “Why is offensive mediocrity ok in basketball but not football?” I don’t understand why fans got tired of “We’re one player away,” “We’re so young,” and “We were just one play from winning” from Bobby but spit out the same type of excuses in basketball.
And to anyone who reads all of that, Randall W. Spetman will pay you $25. And if any of this is said below in the comments, oh well, too bad, so sorry.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
by tricknole on Mar 20, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I see what you are saying
expectations are like opinions so they vary from person to person. I would say personally this team slightly exceeded expectations due to their youth and mainly, Coach Hamilton. I was disputing Class of ’71 saying that we had embraced mediocrity.
So what were you expectations then?
One cannot say we met, exceeded, or failed to meet expectations without first knowing what the expectations were? And what are they for next year?
And I don’t think you read that whole thing (I don’t blame you), so I won’t give Randy the ok to give you your $25.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I can say that because I know what my own expectations are,you just won't be able to analyze them ;)
They were to be 9-7 ACC make NCAAT and possibly win one game. My expectations aren’t based on how I think they should do based on talent of the players, instead they are based on the whole program, including the coach. I think this leads me to have lower expectations because I automatically expect us to lose to a good team badly, beat a great team, and as always lose to a team or two we have no business losing to. This happened every year even in the early parts of Hamilton’s tenure, when we would seemingly beat Duke once a year. However, the road ACC record that we had was far above expectations.
I understand what you are saying as far as process leading to results. As far as I am concerned we have no process at all when it comes to offense in basketball, or even to developing an offense. This is very similar to how our football teams defense was last year.
I do not agree with you that the only reason that we are a good defense is solely because Hamilton only recruits long/athletic players, I do believe that Hamilton is a good defensive coach. There are teams that are long and athletic and bad at defense because they are soft and not well coached. Hamilton has a good system recruits for it and makes sure every one buys into it. That sounds similar to the way that Jimbo handled the offense the past few years. Hamilton is not a good enough coach/ smart enough to hire someone who can actually run an effective offense or develop players.
I agree with you that we are likely stuck with Hamilton due to his contract and the indifference of the administration, and likely we will be in the range of making the tournament with the frequency and results that you predict in your previous post. While I think that it sucks, that is my prediction.
As for next year I am more optimistic as long as every one comes back (Alabi would be dumb to leave IMO). 11 wins in ACC and could see a Sweet Sixteen appearance.
Ask Spetman for it.
He still owes me a chunk of change, too. I wouldn’t expect it.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Dude, my accountant doesn't work on weekends.
I’ll submit the P.O. on Monday, and he’ll handle it from there. Unless you prefer a direct deposit (in which a 5% charge will be assessed)
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 20, 2010 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Cool.
So it would appear we bulls-eyed your season expectations. Imo, I wouldn’t consider that exceeding expectations, though, but no biggie.
I didn’t intend to say Hamilton had no affect on our defense. He does. He’s a good defensive coach (not a great one, imo). He also recruits good defensive players/talent. Height also helps.
Good/great recruiter. Good defensive mind. Average offensive mind. Average/good in-game adjuster (unfortunately it seems this only happens at halftime, not in the first half when we usually need it).
These are our average heights by year and the corresponding defensive and offensive ranks (www.KenPom.com):
2007: 130th – 55th/22nd
2008: 122nd – 43rd/80th
2009: 1st – 12th/100th
2010: 1st – 1st/127th
That definitely shows a correlation between height and defense (doesn’t show causation), but despite Pomeroy saying there’s a slight correlation with height to offense, our offense is going backwards as we get taller?! That 22nd ranked offense in 2007 was Al’s senior year and Toney’s redshirt sophomore year.
And I hope my expected NCAAT success of the next decade isn’t true. That’d be pitifully underachieving for the talent Hamilton’s brought in. I don’t know if he’d stick around 8 more years to get to my 10-year prediction. He’d by 69 by the end of the season. Certainly not too old to coach but maybe he wouldn’t have the desire anymore. No idea.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
You're reading WAY too much into the height analysis
I’ve seen the data that show how effective height (we’re ranked 11th btw, not 1st) affects efficiency. But you’re making it sound like effective height=efficiency, rather than that it affects efficiency. In other words, take a team that is ranked 100th in defense and make them taller, and suddenly they rank 90th. 1st in defense is a remarkable coaching accomplishment, even if everyone on you team is 9 feet tall.
by norcal_nole on Mar 21, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Height helps defensive coaching. Height helps defense.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I didn't see it as height=defense
But it damn sure helps.
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 21, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn't say it was.
And I made sure to clarify if I said that it was unintended, I thought.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I know. I was agreeing with you, moron. I didn't see your post as you unequivocally equating the 2.
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 21, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Hard to tell which way you meant it over this.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I think other posters may have taken your post as
Teams that are tall/lengthy/long are always better defensively, and vice versa. I didn’t see it that way.
It helps, but I’m sure that a team full of AJ Ogilvy’s probably wouldn’t fare well.
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 21, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It's an indictment of lack guard play
Toney last year, notwithstanding. Our front court talent has improved, but our backcourt is as suspect as it was during the Swann/Rich/Mims era.
Swann Rich Mims were there in 2007 and 2008
And the offense was better
And those guys were the model of inconsistency
I really think DK becomes a solid combo guard next year, and Snaer develops as a consistent slasher.
I've thought that about all of our guards for years.
Not going to fool myself again.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I think Snaer gets better
not sure if DK has the mindset/aggressiveness to really progress that much
It just looked like he wasn't comfortable/confident.
I’m not sure why. He’s fairly wide open some of the times he penetrates the lane and then dishes it back out.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Yeah and hesitant to take any jump shot
even though he hit some key threes this year
I somewhat disagree. Our spacing is pretty bad (how many times has a ball been passed to Reid at the top of the key with a guard or small forward standing next to him?). Also it could be argued that the guards know where players are supposed to be rather than the other players know where they are supposed to be.
The bottom line is Hamilton is an elite level assistant, a very good coach at a non-BCS school and a good/decent coach at a BCS school. It all depends on what you desire from him. If you desire a consistent (3 out of 5 years) tournament bid and an occasional win or two in that tournament win then you have what you want. If you want a high powered program that have a good shot of winning a national title then FSU needs to move on. IMO Ham is a good transition coach. He will prove that a team can win but will not finish the program (see being a contender every few years or so). That’s not necessarily a bad thing but that’s how I see it. It’s all in the expectations.
Yeah.
Probably right with the met expectations on my part. I think a little less off his offensive and in-game adjustment skills because our players have no fundamentals and until Demercey left his rotation was too big and his substitution pattern was suspect. I personally don’t recognize any adjustments that he seems to make in game (besides changing defenses). I think that the driving factor behind the offense regressing is due to the fact that we kept getting younger as you go down that list. I hope that your prediction doesn’t come true and personally I think/hope he will retire after this contract is up.
Out of curiosity,
and this is the only part of what you just said that I don’t understand, how do you get younger as time goes on, and how do you keep getting younger year after year? Seems counterintuitive.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
You bring in more talented recruits and then
as the new guys play more than the older players, those older players leave or sit the bench.
Perfect example is GT…how many one and done or two and done players have they had over the past decade?
Every time someone leaves he’s replaced by a freshman. So the more NBA type talent you bring in every year, the younger your squad gets.
Didn't we get older this year?
Lost two seniors but replaced them with one starting senior. And our 6 freshman all became sophomores. We did bring in two freshman, so, maybe we aren’t older, but we aren’t younger by any means. Not when 4 of your starting 5 return.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Are you talking overall team or starters?
If we lose two Srs. and bring in two Frosh, we got younger as a team. If the SRs weren’t starters and all our starters moved up a class, our starters got older…but our team got younger. It can work the other way also.
But the fact is that the more elite talent you bring in, the younger your team gets…until you reach the point that you just can’t get any younger.
I think we got older as a team and starters.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
At the beginning we lost Thornton
but had Toney, Swann, Rich, Mims. Then had only Toney and Uche, and the next year had only Reid. So we ended up counting on younger and younger players
That's not the whole story.
You’re leaving out part of the picture.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
This is for Tricky
How hard can this be? Let’s go hypothetical for ease of math.
Your 12 man team has 4 sr, 4 jr, 4 so, 4 fr. As you replace each departing sr with a fr, nothing changes…same average class. But as better talent comes aboard, and frosh and sophs supplant jrs and seniors as starters, the starting lineup gets younger. If a soph or jr or sr leaves due to lack of PT, he gets replaced by a frosh, thus making the entire roster younger.
Assuming everyone except Reid returns next year, the starters are probably a little older, but 3 incoming frosh make the roster younger…and if 2 frosh actually take starting jobs from say a frosh and junior, then the starting lineup gets younger also.
Sure, there are variables, but I’m just trying to show how we can in fact get younger even though It doesn’t seem tp make sense. Next year and the year after bode well for us.
Don’t get impatient…yeah, I know. I am already. But breathe deeply and have a beer…we’re on the right track.
I think trick may be referring to experience and not just age but im not sure
however, one thing i will concede to Hamilton is that he has been hampered by some questionable decisions when it comes to leaving early for the draft like Wafer and Johnson. However I have high hopes for this year because even if Alabi leaves, the returning talent and experience we have leaves no room for excuses and will truly be the barometer of how good of a coach hamilton is.
Wafer just did not fit the FSU system.
Johnson was like a 23 year old junior.
Wafer needed a change of scenery and Johnson wasn’t going to getting any younger.
Hamilton also lost out on recruits like Kreft (part I), Vaughn, Holmes, Breeden, Griffin, Habel, Soto, Blake and DeMercy. That’s a lot of turnover or guys that just never made it.
But let’s not act like other schools don’t have underclassmen declare early routinely and that this is only a problem Hamilton has.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Maybe I haven't followed this argument closely enough,
but I’m lost. This season we had 1 senior and 2 juniors (prior to Demercy leaving). Next year we’ll have 1 senior and 5 juniors. Where is my math wrong?
Ok smart***.
Let’s give a numerical value for each player. A senior being 4 and a freshman being 1.
2008-2009:
Douglas – 4
Echefu – 4
Reid – 3
DeMercy 2
Kitchen – 2
Alabi – 1
Singleton – 1
Loucks – 1
Dulkys – 1
Gibson – 1
Jordan – 1
That’s 10 players and 21 “units”. That’s an average of 2.1. Our starters were Singleton, Alabi, Douglas, Echefu and Kitchen. That’s an average of 2.4.
This year we have/had
Reid – 4
Kitchen – 3
DeMercy – 3
Singleton – 2
Alabi – 2
Gibons – 2
Loucks – 2
Dulkys – 2
Jordan – 2
Snaer – 1
Shannon – 1
That’s 24 “units” for 10 players for an average of 2.4. Our starters average 2.4.
Maybe my math is off, but our team got older and our starters stayed the same.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
See, my math was off.
We had 11 players, not 10. I forgot to add Gibson for last year until after I did the math. The average/year stays the same but it’s 24/11= 2.18 now. The average/starting 5 has no change.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Let's try this again.
It’s been pretty hectic at the house the past hour so I’m losing track of my thoughts.
========
Let’s give a numerical value for each player. A senior being 4 and a freshman being 1.
2008-2009:
Douglas – 4
Echefu – 4
Reid – 3
DeMercy 2
Kitchen – 2
Alabi – 1
Singleton – 1
Loucks – 1
Dulkys – 1
Gibson – 1
Jordan – 1
That’s 11 players and 21 "units". That’s an average of 1.91. Our starters were Singleton, Alabi, Douglas, Echefu and Kitchen. That’s an average of 2.4.
This year we have/had
Reid – 4
Kitchen – 3
DeMercy – 3
Singleton – 2
Alabi – 2
Gibons – 2
Loucks – 2
Dulkys – 2
Jordan – 2
Snaer – 1
Shannon – 1
That’s 24 "units" for 11 players for an average of 2.18. Our starters average 2.4.
=======
Fixed.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Read below.
But ignore the “smart***” comment.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Err, read above.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
OK...here you are
First of all, I took hypothetical numbers to show how it Could happen. And tried to draw a dorrelation as to how elite talent coming in could push it that way.
Reid and Demercy equal 7. What if Kitchen were to leave next year because of “handwriting on the wall”? There’s 10.
Who replaces them? We could get younger…didn’t say we would. Just said this is how it might happen.
On a hypothetical 12 man roster, the oldest a team can be is 48 units. The youngest is 12. It will change every year.
But that’s OK. I’ll buy you a couple beers before a football game next year and you may find that I’m kind of a fun smartass. And if I can’t make it to the game, I’ll offer you my parking pass for that week.
Cheers I like your passion.
Do you think Kitchen leaves?
I guess that’s also a hypothetical, but…I just find it an odd one.
With Reid and DeMercy gone, that’s -7, correct. With our current juniors simply being a year older, that’s +6. That’s why I say we aren’t constantly getting younger.
Projected 2010-2011 roster:
Kitchen – 4
Singleton – 3
Dulkys – 3
Loucks – 3
Gibson – 3
Alabi – 3
Jordan – 3
Snaer – 2
Shannon – 2
Kreft – 1.5
James – 1.5
White – 1
Miller – 1
That’s 31 for 13 players. That’s 2.38 average for the team. I have James and Kreft at 1.5 because they will be juniors and I’m conservatively counting juco as only half the units as DI ball.
To make it fun, let’s say Miller starts in Kitchen’s spot. I’ll just say James starts in Reid’s old spot (they appear to be similar type guys). That’s 10.5 for 5 starters or 2.1/starter. Younger, but not much younger from the 2.4 we’ve had the last 2 years. If you assume Kitchen is the starter it turns into 2.7/starter.
Yeah, it’s certainly possible to get younger from one year to the next, but we didn’t do it this year. We may have done it from 2007-2008 to 2008-2009. Not sure. The only real way i see it happening is if you have several underclassmen leave in the same year.
I’m not sure how common of an occurrence it is for a guy like Dulkys, let’s say, to transfer simply because a younger guy like Snaer is the starter at that position.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I've been on the "he has a limited celling band wagon." But I might make an adjustment in my viewpoint.
A. He DOES have a limited celling.
2. If he can get a guard of the level of Ian Miller bi-anually through his phenominal recruiting, then they might just be able to outdefend, hit big shots, and let the PG create offense for himself and others.
D. While not the best form of offense it could combine with the level of Hamilton’s defense to put us in the sweet 16 or elite 8 regularly in the future. I might be okay with that for a decade and then be an attractive job to upgrade on the next hire.
I will wait and see how well they utilize Miller to make the call.
Yeah, right!
Heck, I wouldn't just be ok with that, I'd be pretty damn happy.
put us in the sweet 16 or elite 8 regularly
We’ve brought quality guards in like Rich, Swann, Douglas and Snaer, and so far none of them have elevated us to the point where we win NCAAT games.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Swann and Douglas were brought in as points, though.
So, whether or not they are/were distributors is sort of irrelevant I think, since the intentions were to use them as such.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Which goes back to recruiting.
How can so many people claim he’s such a great recruiter when he leaves the most important position to people unsuited to play it?
I think he's at the very least better than good.
We were the ***hole of the ACC when he took over and is now consistently plucking 5* recruits (even though the % of Rivals 5* recruits in basketball is ridiculously higher than in football when compared to the amount of 4*, but that’s another discussion) and was even plucking high 4* from the start of his tenure.
No idea why he can’t recruit a good true point. I don’t know if some guys are too athletically limited for him. I don’t know if he feels some would be a liability on defense. I don’t know if all his targets go to traditional schools (but then why not recruit just below that level of point guard, if that’s the case?). I have no idea. And I’m certainly not making excuses. There aren’t any.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
ahh but IF Miller is a handler AND scorer... thus able to create offense for himself AND others
that’s the only scenario I see the offense being descent so we will have to wait and see.
Yeah, right!
Douglas was not a handler and scorer?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
exactly we were horrible in the ACC when he took over.
I said earlier that I believe he recruits for defense, so athleticism is more important to him then true point guard skills. I think with Loucks he sacrificed athleticism for PG ability, but he may have sacrificed too much of both as Loucks is a good backup IMO.
Well I think that Miller has elite athleticism and will be a good defender
I just think that he has great offensive creating skills as well, and is a great overall player. Truecolors, I think we are both expecting big things from the Snaer/Miller backcourt and I think we both believe that Miller will help the offense.
Miller is a freak... I really believe that he will make everyone better.
Beat John Wall’s HS team as a Junior.
Yeah, right!
Also, Id din't mean to imply that he was a bad defender... meant nobody watched his film and said...
“wow we really need this kid… he will shut down opposing PG’s.”
more likely
“He’s a one man offense.” after wipping away the drool.
Yeah, right!
exactly
while snaer is good, i believe miller is on another level. Reading in an article, I think an official said that he though Miller was the best player in NC this year. I have high hopes for what he will do for next year’s team.
no way snaer is on that level... not as good a shooter or ball handler....
more like a good athelete. and quality scorer.
Yeah, right!
UNC and Duke didn't even go after him
because they had better options, which says a lot.
I’m stoke about him, but keeping any expectations for his impact next season to a minimum. If he has the same impact that Snaer had this year I will consider that a big win.
You will likely be disappointed.
I think he had the same impact as Singleton did his freshman year. A few breakout games, a few awful ones and a bunch of so-so ones.
True freshman just do not blow up in Hamilton’s system. He rarely plays them significant minutes and his offensive system just sucks. So even if they are capable of making a big impact, they won’t because our whole offensive scheme is pitiful.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
What did I say that is "way wrong"?
I would love to be way wrong but I think I’m being way realistic. lol
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I think Calipari must've gone after him.
He claims a Kentucky offer. Also has offers from Wake Forest, Oklahoma, Georgia Tech and Florida (all arguably better programs than FSU).
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
There's a big difference between an offer
and really pursuing someone. We offer tons of kids we never talk to – that’s the name of the game.
Calipari is going to land Knight, Selby or no one.
by norcal_nole on Mar 22, 2010 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
You don't offer kids you wouldn't be ok with playing for you.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I also mentioned 4 other good quality programs.
Talk about being objective.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I have absolutely zero concept of what you're even arguing about.
I didn’t state that Miller was a fringe prospect who didn’t have good offers. I stated that the two dominant programs in his own backyard both had point guards at the tops of their need lists, and both went elsewhere.
by norcal_nole on Mar 23, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Also hamilton is a fairly recent hire and a few of the above names only finished under him.
We will find out next year with
Yeah, right!
Recent hire?
We hired him prior to the 2002-2003 season. He personally brought all of those guys into the program. I didn’t list Pickett, who signed here several months before Hamilton’s hiring.
Yes, we will find out next year with Miller. I would love to be surprised. I just think it’s a little much to expect a freshman to change the dynamics of the team like that. Singleton didn’t (I thought/hoped he would). Snaer didn’t (I hoped he would). Why should Miller? Simply because he’s being brought in as a point?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Because none of the names you've mentioned are true ball handlers... I'm saying the potential to bounce the ball until you create a shot for yourself or someone else has been missing.
I do not think that is an advisable way to play offense, but it’s better than what we currently have.
Yeah, right!
Douglas isn't/wasn't a ballhandler?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
He played 3 years for us.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Good post, RollNole,
You said it well, and I can’t really add much too it. I don’t think canning coach Hamilton at this juncture would do us much good. He’s bringing in a good recruiting class, with a good POINT GUARD…Next year should be much, much better.
I’m glad that TC pointed out the officiating. I got back to watch the 2nd half, and I am a huge fan of using the rewind feature on my digital cable. There was a lotta ticky tack crap being called last night, and that really doesn’t favor FSU at ALL. IMO some of it was really questionable (calls against both teams), and when you’ve been allowed to “bump and grind” all year in the ACC then all of a sudden aren’t allowed to breathe on your opponent, it makes things hard.
However, Gonzaga outplayed us last night. They constantly had open men under the basket, they hit their shots, etc. They did what they needed to do to win.
A disappointing loss, but we did about what I expected this year. The parity in the ACC was a bit unexpected I think, and for us to go 10-6 and play as well as we did on the road…well, I think it’s enough to give Ham another shot.
However, the new mantra “FSU Basketball: Win ugly, lose even worse” needs to find its way onto a TShirt.
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 20, 2010 1:41 PM EDT reply actions
Agreed with your point regarding officiating
Really thought the hand check against Snaer after he missed the FTs near the end was weak.
There were lotsa calls like that.
Singleton got busted with one that I swear to god he I reviewed it 4 times and I didn’t see him touch the guy.
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 20, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think it was a block,
I thought it was a reachin call under the basket, but I could be wrong. Chris reaction was priceless…He got that typical “Who me?! Are you kidding?!?!” face
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 20, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Either way,
the game wasn’t called like the typical ACC game or as some of the other tourney games.
Most people say Miller is a combo/scoring point, not a "true" point.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I want a royalty fee if those shirts ever get made.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
What I meant to say was
I don’t understand basketball philosophies and schemes. However, it looks like other teams have an offensive plan with a method to their plays. Our guys look like they are just running around like streetballers hoping they get an open three. Is that because the defenses have us figured out or do we just hope to play great D and score in the transition. I thought the refs called it close but for both sides. They were not the reason we lost. Snaer missed a 1 and 1 and then both of the next free throws. They would have tied us up. We need some shooters.
While our FT shooting was abysmal all year
I liked how Snaer became more confident as the season progressed. I expect him to continue that and average 10-15 PPG next year.
by basbalstr101 on Mar 20, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
He became more confident, yes
But got sloppy towards the end of the year. He’ll learn to reel it in eventually. I expect big things from him next year.
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 20, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Same
he and Miller should be a force in the backcourt for us and i will be disappointed if they aren’t.
Its because we run a motion offense
which is the worst choice IMO for a defensive-minded coach. Motion offenses require basketball IQ and awareness and don’t rely on set plays as much. Coming out of high school and likely being able to physically dominate the competition, our players need a coach who can help them cultivate that IQ and Hamilton can’t do that for offense. We would be much better served to run an offense with more set plays with maybe flex being part of it, so the kids don’t have to think as much. I agree that we need shooters and not just stand-still, streaky ones like Dulkys. I think that since Hamilton is a defensive coach, he recruits for that so you end up with a lot of really athletic players with limited offensive capabilities. While this may be good that he recruits to his strengths as a coach, it magnifies his deficiencies as one since he cannot develop them offensively, only defensively. This leads to the anemic offense full of turnovers that we have become accustomed to seeing under Ham. I think that Miller can be a TD type player who can help create something out of nothing and stretch a defense. Also, I agree that the officials didn’t cost us the game, our horrendous first half did, along with those missed FTs by Snaer, but the officiating was a factor in the game
You nailed it, as far as Ham's MO
Recruit a ton of really athletic players who can be developed defensively to be elite performers…then go recruit one or 2 guys once every 2 years that you can just say “Ok, Toney/Al/Von/Tim…go put your team on your back and score 20 points a game”
In the years when we don’t have that one guy, this is what we’ll get.
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 20, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And even with a guy like that,
we will be consistently inconsistent since we have to ride that one horse
The motion offense not only may be the worst choice for a defensive-minded coach like
Hamilton, you may have a bigger problem than that: It may be the worst choice for a conference like the ACC, where you don’t get nights off by way weak opponents.
It strikes me that a motion offense is probably an excellent choice for a school like Memphis, where Calipari had to figure out how he gets blue-chip talent to come to a non-BCS school. “Come here, and you’ll get to showcase your talents for the NBA night-in, night-out.” Since Conference USA is not the night-in, night-out battle the ACC is, a coach in that conference can conceivably build up that sheer talent advantage that can approximate the high-school level talent disparity RollNole5 referred to above.
In short, this may not be possible in the ACC, and may be the crux of the problem with Hamilton’s coaching philosophy. You may be flat-out asking too much of our athletes in the conference we play in, and thus, the long-term worry is that this issue is one that will not go away: we are always going to be playing against the best competition in the country. The talent disparity necessary for a motion offense will never materialize. This could explain why this Hamilton-coached team has seemed to reach a plateau they cannot move past, a permanent 7-9 to 9-7 limbo with an offense that does not improve during the season. If this is the case, “another year” is never going to help. Its the wrong offense in the wrong league.
I personally have not called for Hamilton to be fired, and I sure as heck do not see any impetus for that to happen anyway. Early on this year, I suggested that if I were in a position of authority over this program, I would give Hamilton next year, but I would be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that next year is a make-or-break, put-up-or-shut-up season that MUST include NCAA Tournament victories. He should go into the season knowing he needs that or he is gone. This should be made clear to him as soon as possible, so he can make the decision as to whether he stays or not. Maybe, this will get him to make the necessary modifications in the offense.
Whats the alternative? Say nothing and have the same process repeat itself next year? At some point, its put-up or shut-up time. Zero NCAA Tournament wins is zero NCAA Tournament wins. At some point, he has to earn the money the school is paying him.
All is not lost; the unconquerable will/And courage never to submit or yield.
The very first post by ROLLNOLE5
said that we should hire an offensive minded assistant coach to teach fundamentals. I don’t know anything about any of the assistants. Is that a possible solution? Should that be part of your ultimatum?
Bottom line though, the decision about who that offensive-minded assistant you
bring in is HAS to be Hamilton’s decision. He has most certainly earned that right, and furthermore you cant be forcing specific assistant coaches onto a head coach. He runs the program. You can give him the ultimatum that 2010-2011 is the make-or-break season, but allow him to make the decisions as to who stays and who goes, assistant-wise. He’s no dummy. He at least knows where the problems lie.
All is not lost; the unconquerable will/And courage never to submit or yield.
I guess I just said something really similar.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I don't think forcing Hamilton to fire someone and bring in a new guy is the right move.
I think telling him that an underperforming offense AND a one and done in the Big Dance next year may cost him his job is the way to go. Let him make the needed moves. If he fails to do them he loses his job, a la Bobby. I think forcing out his longtime (I’m talking like 20 years) assistant would just piss off the head ball coach, a la Bobby.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I agree with this. I probably went too far in suggesting he would have to
actually fire Stan Jones. It would very likely result in the bitter situation you refer to, and would be tantamount to firing Hamilton, or at least forcing him to resign.
Your posts above were good ones. I obviously agree about the lack of “process” in the basketball program. I also have noticed that those who are okay with Hamilton simply make some variation of the general asseration that, year-in, year-out, a one-and-done in the NCAA Tourney is good enough, without regard to what talent happens to be on the team. Those of us who are more critical of Hamilton actually make our analysis based on what is possible with the talent we have. I think that this is part-and-parcel with being fans of the basketball team at a school where football dominates.
I’ll also note something else about the color commentating that we have heard throughout the season, such as Elmore’s “pitiful” comment from friday night: I get the impression that these guys were also pulling their punches with regards to our offense and the fundamentals on the offensive side of the ball. My guess is that if you got some of these color commentators off the record, they would be more blunt about how bad our offense was this year.
All is not lost; the unconquerable will/And courage never to submit or yield.
I think we heard "pitiful" and "terrible" and "awful" a number of times this year
Especially from the Giminski camp.
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 21, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
"Those guys on the bench are burried...and they know it."
Ouch.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
BOOM!
Those of us who are more critical of Hamilton actually make our analysis based on what is possible with the talent we have.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
The crux of your argument. Who said that?
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 21, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
If a serious question, GNO said it.
I just blockquoted it.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I was too lazy to go back and see who said it.
But it’s the fundamental difference between how FSU basketball fans evaluate the program.
Some evaluate on what talent we currently possess, and some evaluate on what we should do because we’re FSU basketball.
I seriously cannot believe this tournament. Another game goes down to the last shot (Xavier/Pitt), and TAMU/Purdue tied with seconds left. Freaking unbelievable.
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 21, 2010 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I predicted 1 A10 team in the Elite Eight.
God, I hope I’m wrong. I hate Xavier.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Good for Purdue.
Tough break, literally, to end the season and then seeding-wise.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Yeah...the basketball Gods were unkind to Purdue.
They’ll be back.
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 21, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Referring to my liking of UD?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Nope, meant UD.
University of Dayton, bout 45 minutes due north on I-75. Huge A10 rivals with Xavier.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I suppose you are a Goldstarr person? I dislike all greek chilli, its tastles beefsause.
Yeah, right!
haha not at all...
i hate them all. lived in cincy for the last 4 years before just moving back to Boston and hated every minute of those two places. thats exactly how i described it to my friends from Boston…nasty beefsauce. never understood the hype….
the worst part is getting outvoted by a car full of locals and having to spend acutally money on the food.
“Wouldn’t you guys rather go to….any fast food joint in town other than Skyline?”
Yeah, right!
And there's nothing like spending $50 dollars on ribs you can get on the side of the road in the deep south.
or going to Big Boy….A.KA shoney’s.
It’s worth all the suffering for a pint of Greaters and FSU on ESPN gameplan on a saturday afternoon.
Yeah, right!
yeah i never understood the appeal of montgomery inn
i mean the sauce is good but worth all that money?? no thank you.
but you are right…graeters always lived up to the hype tho….
I've never eaten at the restaurant.
But the sauce is a must have.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
It's a one time must do... but you can get the ribs and wings freeze dried at Krogers now...
al least you could 4 years ago.
I had a friend who went their every year for his annerversary
and got fish!
What!?
Yeah, right!
Agree
I think someone said earlier that FSU basketball fans are football fans first and may only show up/watch the Duke/UNC level games, and are content with making the Tourney and having a solid squad. However, they dont realize how much talent that we are wasting and what our potential is.
I agree wholeheartedly,
however, a motion offense doesn’t have to work only by overmatching a team physically, with good coaching it can actually level the playing field. However, that requires teaching and an understanding of the nuances of basketball that Hamilton certainly can’t provide and many times top flight recruits won’t ascribe to due to their supreme athletic skills. I agree that the ACC is a bad conference to run motion, if you are going to run it in the “Memphis” style of overmatching your opponents. Hamilton isn’t a good enough coach to teach or hire someone to teach the players to run a sound motion offense based on spacing, off-ball screens, and good cuts, so I think he should change the offense.
I agree that next year, especially if everyone returns, Hamilton will have no excuses and will have to put up results. If that doesn’t happen he should be gone.
May I also add that Hamilton will be 62 next season. He is getting to the end of
his coaching career anyway. He is signed through the 2013-2014 season, which is 3 more seasons, so we are talking 65 at that point, retirement age, especially in the ACC. Thus, the risk involved in what I am talking about is minimal; a program change is coming soon any way you cut it.
All is not lost; the unconquerable will/And courage never to submit or yield.
I was gonna put that in my previous post
that is a big point and as you said it is not like we will be stuck with him long term no matter what. However, much like football this year, how many years and how much talent do we want to waste with him at the helm. Next year should be put up or shut up.
No doubt about it. I just hope those in the program who make the decisions
feels the same way.
Oddly, the second (or third) fiddle basketball plays at FSU make work in our favor: giving Hamilton this sort of ultimatum really wont matter to most Seminoles fans and won’t be the epic struggle making changes in the football program turned out to be. Who really will care if Stan Jones leaves prior to next year? Who will even notice? It certainly will not create the same hubbub as the Jeff Bowden debacle.
All is not lost; the unconquerable will/And courage never to submit or yield.
The only problem with the lack of public outcry
is that it goes both ways, and if we learned anything from the football fiasco was that the administration can be slow to act. So like you said hopefully the decision makers in the program feel the way we do or we may have to start a Hamilton retirement counter
That is everyone's criticism of our offense.
Fans and analysts alike. What is our identity? What is our gameplan?
I believe TrueCubbie or another author wrote a story discussing the type of offense we run. Maybe someone can find it for you.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Ask and you shall receive
Keep in mind this was about last year’s team but has a lot of good info about the basic parts of the offense.
www.Tomahawknation.com
'Preciate it.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
We still take too many stupid shots
Ryan Reid taking jumpers 5 feet away from the 3 point line is not what we should be doing on offense.
Next year we need to find ways to get Dulkys some good looks for 3. And Alabi needs to get a heck of a lot more physical down low. We should be a good offensive team, we have the tools. Singleton is probably one of the 10 most talented players in the nation. But we don’t play together on the offensive end at all.
Speak softly, and carry a big Spear
Alabi needs to be doing squats every day until next season
and Singleton is a great defender with amazing physical skills, but I doubt he will ever be a real viable offensive option, unless he moved into the post a little more.
Another problem is that we have literally no offensive threat that isn't Lithuanian.
Teams can just sit back within a couple inches of Alabi and Singleton because we can’t shoot. makes it hard to give them the ball.
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 20, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Singleton might be
one of the 10 most athletic big men in the nation. He has average big school talent. There is a big difference in those 2 things. The good thing is that he has time to develop his skills and some rudimentary bball IQ.
Exactly
More outside shooting will free up the inside and allow for more one on ones, and I will put my money on X-man, Alabi, or Singleton all day when they aren’t triple-teamed. I guess I didn’t watch enough film on Snaer, but besides some of the crazy TOs he had, I think I was most disappointed by his outside shooting. In fairness, I was probably expecting too much from him.
I was most disappointed by his ability to finish at the rim.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
That's not what I said.
He actually did a decent job of getting to the rim. He failed to finish. He flat out missed layups all year.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
its also harder to finish with a clogged paint
regardless I agree that his finishing was poor, which was also a team wide party. I thought that he should have attacked the rim more. the good news to me is that he is an extremely hard worker and should improve greatly for next year
agree
I was happy with his outside shot. If anything he needed to shoot more treys. As you say, problems finishing and, to be honest, he wasn’t exactly John Wall getting there. We tend to remember the pretty ones and not all the times he had it taken from him. He will get a lot better.
Going 1 and done
in the last year’s NCAA, this year’s ACC and this year’s NCAA tournaments; should our program look at the psychological preparation that we put into these tournaments a little more. I haven’t heard mention of it in basketball, but it is discussed alot when the football bowl games come around. Mainly because it is several weeks some times instead of days. We have certainly beaten tougher teams during the year than we faced in any of those three games.
I don't think it would hurt,
but I think that our lack of offense made us extremely inconsistent, and our great defense allowed us to beat tougher teams, while our terrible offense let us lose to worse teams.
I guess my question is
Have we peaked with Ham or is there room for improvement? Getting a true PG will help. Is next year the make-or-break year?
No way
This team is young, and very talented. They have all the key players coming back (hopefully) with another under their belt. I really think they have a solid chance to win the ACC. Also, I think Coach Ham has done a solid job making them consistently competitive in one of the toughest conferences in the country. I agree the offensive can be frustrating at times, but where they from when Ham came in is night and day and I’m encouraged about the future.
by crmnole on Mar 20, 2010 5:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Don't think we have peaked,
but there is a ceiling that is imposed by having Hamilton as the coach
I think we're about at his peak.
Yes, I think we could make a sweet sixteen run with Hamilton if given enough years, but that wouldn’t change his “max” to a sweet sixteen coach. I think, if we were to let Hamilton coach indefinitely, and his age wasn’t an issue, he’d get to 8 NCAAT every 10 years. I think we’d probably lose 1st round 5 of those times, 2d round twice and make the sweet sixteen once out of every 10 years.
While we could still technically have a better finish to the season than we’ve had the last 2 years, has our “peak” actually changed much? Does anyone really see us getting to or past the 2nd round of the NCAAT with any regularity with the way things have gone the past 5 years (obviously our best 5 in the Hamilton era)? Even when we made the NIT, we bombed out at home in the first round once, bombed out at home in the 2nd round and actually made a moderate run one year and lost in the quarters at Mississippi State. He’s only one his first game in the ACCT twice, only advancing past the quarters once. His recent history shows no inclination that he is capable of taking teams very far in tournament settings. No reason to expect him to start now in the NCAAT.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
People ask if LH has peaked with FSU. I ask has FSU peaked as a basketball program? At what point do we say where we stand is pretty good? Some years we will go further and some years we wont come as far but overall we are in a good position. We are winning on a consistent basis, ugly or not a win is a win. The past two NCAAT I was able to watch my team in the tournament . Yes it was a bad performance but at least we were there. Being there is much better then the many more years I have been stuck with watching UF there but not us.
Take Doak Back!!!
This post just makes me sick.
I just cannot disagree with you more on the fundamental reasoning.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I agree, it was a difficult post to read. We are on the same page here, Trick.
This is my deep-seeded fear about being a Seminoles Basketball fan: that the regular Nole fan is football first and the rest doesn’t matter, and is flat-out satisfied if this team’s max is one-and-done in the NCAA Tourney.
We got a real problem when the average Nole fan tunes in to hoops games when we play Duke or North Carolina, and then the NCAA Tournament IF we make it. If thats the extent of the time that is put in, how can that person care if we lose in the first round of the Dance?
All is not lost; the unconquerable will/And courage never to submit or yield.
I'm with you guys.
I love college basketball. I love FSU. Therefore, I love FSU basketball. It’s very simple.
GNO your fear really shouldn’t be a “fear” but a “disappointment” in the situation. The great basketball schools either always have been (Duke, UNC, Kansas, etc) or they kicked some ass and their fans BECAME passionate. A good example of this is the University of Tennessee, who up until a couple of years ago was an afterthought. Now look at them.
Guess where Tennessee is playing next weekend? I’ll give you a hint. FSU won’t be there.
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 21, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
The point about Tennessee is a good one. There is nothing that prevents
this school and its supporters from becoming passionate basketball fans. Everybody loves a winner. A couple deep runs in the tourney might be all it takes. But THAT might take a change in coaching, and the lack of support the basketball team gets might prevent or slow down that process. A catch-22 situation, no doubt.
Me personally, I’ve been a bigger follower of the basketball team than the football team for at least 5 or 6 years. The infusion of politics into the Bowden situation turned me off big time to what was going on at the Doak. At least the basketball team had a competent head coach, and was devoid of the political meanderings. Though that situation has obviously changed now.
All is not lost; the unconquerable will/And courage never to submit or yield.
I attended every home game and a few dozen away games
during Kennedy’s "glory’ years, and our fan support wasn’t any better then than it is now.
I'll agree with that.
Attendance numbers support it. Although, FSU’s enrollment was what, two-thirds of what it is today back in the early 90’s?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
You and Jimbo would not get along at all...
you are being very results oriented as opposed to process oriented.
That's my big issue.
The process sucks. A sucky process results in underachieving; underachieving given the amount of talent on this team.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I don't know if we have "peaked,"
but unless we can get more consistent on offense, we always be very vulnerable come tournament time. We simply cannot hang with anyone if they are shooting well. We are built to play defense and stand very little chance if we cannot dictate the style of game played.
So if we improve the offense to top 50...
That’s not a lofty goal, and maintain just a top 25 offense, we have improved. As a program we have anything but peaked. Hamilton, however, is damn close.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
We have to achieve the exact opposite of the football team.
Baby steps. Just think at what improvement a top 50 offense woulda been this year as far as W-L record goes.
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 21, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
he has to have combo-guard with the ability to create offense. Period. Hamilton has coached for a while and...
isn’t going to suddenly learn to coach offense, however with a catalyst type guard and this defense they could be a round of 16 regular….is that enough for us?
Yeah, right!
As I see it,
some of the elite teams only make the sweet sixteen 40-50% of the time. Is that what you would classify as regular? I would be happy with that, all things considered. I would also hope, that if our talent is greater than sweet sixteen type talent, that we do get past the sweet sixteen every now and then.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
This seems completely off-topic from the question you asked that I responded to?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
My how people forget what was just a few years ago.
We went 11 years before making it to the NCAAT last year but after making it two years in a row people claim we have reached the highest point possible under LH. I find that hard to believe.
year record
01-02- 12-16 (4-11)
02-03- 13-14 (4-12)
03-04- 18-12 (6-10)
04-05- 12-18 (4-12)
05-06- 19-8 (9-7)
06-07- 19-11 (7-9)
07-08- 18-13 (7-9)
08-09- 23-8 (10-6)
09-10- 22-8 (10-6)
We had 4 wins in conference play before LH came to FSU but now that we have back to back years of 10 wins we have plateaued? I don’t see how anybody can compare FSU football to FSU basketball. Yes our football team had times over the past 10 years that our offense then defense were incompetent but our football team has not been below .500 in ACC play or overall for that matter. Our football team has 2 National Titles and 14 consecutive top 5 finishes. When our football team performs badly its below what a person would expect from FSU. If we were to fire LH and another coach were to come in and our team go back to mediocrity nobody would notice outside of FSU fans. Arguing FSU basketball has to win the conference is like UNC football arguing they should win the ACC consistently. They pay their coach a lot of money too and have top talent. 5 players on their defense are supposed to be drafted next year. Thoughts? I feel it is a decent comparison.
Take Doak Back!!!
I am upset with our play because I don't feel we are playing up to our potential.
We have a tremendous amount of talent on this team and we aren’t doing a whole heck of a lot with it (5 NBA draft picks, 2 of them first rounders, one of them a lottery pick, zero tournament wins). Is there any denying that?
We have a higher average star rating on this team than most the teams in the sweet sixteen will have.
Our average star rating: 4.1
- Kansas 4.1 West Virginia 3.0
-
- Syracuse 3.4 Ohio State 3.75
-
— Baylor 3.63
(Admittedly, I stole that from a guy on WC.)
Nobody expects to win or compete for a national title every year. But I do expect to play up to our talent level. I do expect our players to play up to their potential. I do expect that we don’t win ugly and lose worse EVERY SINGLE GAME. I do expect that after 8 seasons, our offense should be getting better instead of getting worse the past 4-5 yeas.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
The thing about evaluating our basketball team is you have to evaluate it as a whole. Should we do better with the talent we have, probably. But The coach we have brings in that talent and wins a good portion of our games with that talent that he brings in. LH should be able to stay around through his contract period as long as he continues to make the tournament and bring in top talent as he has been doing. I believe we will win a hand full of tournament games over the next few years.
Take Doak Back!!!
So we should do better given our talent?
You just said that correct? So, we underachieve. Our coach doesn’t maximize the potential of his recruits/players. I have issue with that and until he starts producing results ON PAR (or exceeding) the talent level he brings in, I will continue to criticize.
You don’t need to tell me we should or should not keep Lenny. No where in my post did I mention his job security.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
It's a chicken/egg thing.
Lose LH, possibly lose talent. Keep Lenny, roll the dice in the postseason.
I personally believe that Ian Miller will help us out, and we won’t be having this discussion next year.
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 21, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand that fear.
Lose the coach that recruits well but underachieves and you lose the recruits and fall off the map. Well, if you get a coach that just meets potential, and you get to the 2nd round or sweet sixteen with our sweet sixteen type talent, you’ll get recruits.
It is a chicken and the egg thing. But there is more than one chicken.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
YuuuuP
Personally, I think that there are better options out there, but its all about perception and expectations. Until the administration percieves that LH is not meeting THEIR expectations, then he’ll stay. And right now, that’s OK with me, but the change process needs to be started sooner than later, as his contract is up in what, 3 more years?
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 21, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Four more years I think.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Conference wins.
We had made the sweet 16 in the early 90’s followed by and elite 8 appearance the following year our first two years in the ACC. Then we started to slide and then Steve Robinson made it worse, but we did have a little bit of history prior to LH. You could also say that LH had taken Miami to the Sweet 16 in his defense as well. I think it is too early to claim he has plateued, but there is no reason that expectations should stay high. The goal should be to have a team capable of winning the ACC Tournament. The regular season is a tough one in the ACC, but if a team continually finishes in the top 4 in conference play, they should win the tournament a time or two.
I am not sold on LH but I also don’t see any reason to get rid of him just yet. I’m not a basketball guy, but even I can tell Coach needs some help with the offense. In today’s one and done college game, you are always one or two recruits away from a break-out year. Can LH start getting some of those guys or just keep being a defensive minded guy?
It is telling that this post has only gotten 70+ comments in 2 days after getting bounced from post season play. How many posts do threads get following a bowl loss in football?
Baby Steps
Compete in the ACC, make a spot in the top 4.
Make the NCAA on a consistent basis.
The wins will come, and the PROGRAM will continue to flourish with LH recruiting talent.
(Doesnt mean I dont get PO’d and want to throw my Becks at the TV when we turn the ball over like it’s greased)
But I see the process involved to make this team a yearly contender.
"You're either carrying a spear, or running from it"
by BigSpearDiplomacy on Mar 21, 2010 12:49 PM EDT reply actions
Much slower than any of us want
But the progress is happening.
We lose TD who was our only ballhandler and scorer, played 91% of the potential minutes, and gets drafted in the 1st round – and posters are disappointed that we went 10-6 in the ACC. That says everything about where we are as a program compared to where we were when Ham arrived.
No one is disappointed we went 10-6.
I’m disappointed we didn’t play up to our potential and that our offense sucks.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I see your point,
and I even pointed out that we have made consistent, slow progress under Hamilton. However, it is frustrating to see a program like Baylor, that doesn’t have any more tradition then us basketball wise, as a #3 seed. Especially since right around the beginning of Hamilton’s term they had a player kill another player and the coach try to cover it up. So I think we are correct in asking for a little faster return on our investment.
Literally 200+ teams every year have NO shot to even make the Dance.
Let’s not act like all teams are created equal.
There are only 73 BCS schools.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
In reality though, there are really only 1 or 2 other conferences
besides BCS ones who get more than there one automatic bid, so the field is not nearly as broad as you are saying. And my point was that with a good coach who can teach fundamentals and develop talent, you shouldn’t have to wait nine years for results. Since Hamilton is such a good recruiter, he doesnt need to be as good at development, yet our teams still underachieve. I think we all recognize the progress Hamilton has made, but when you look at the product that is being put out, it is understandable to ask how much further can he take us from here. I think that his flaws as a coach are much too major to get this team into the next tier of teams in college basketball.
I don't disagree with any of that,
except your evaluation of him as a “such a good” recruiter (in ACC terms). He does a solid job, but outside of Snaer has never landed a recruit that was out of his league.
Look at his recruiting in relation to the level of school he is coaching,
not the level of his conference. Recruiting FSU is harder to do than at UNC or Duke. Look at the amount of McDonalds AAs we have had since hes been here. Wafer was a 5 star, Al Johnson 4, Rich and Swann 4, Singleton 5, Kitchen 4, Gibson 4, Alabi 5, Julian Vaughn 4, Snaer 5, Shannon 4, Aaron Holmes 4, Josue Soto 4, Casaan Breeden 4, Echefu 4, Reid 4, our star rating for Basketball recruiting is probably higher than Football’s. When he took over the team was crap and he has consistenly had top 20 classes and landed 4 and 5 stars, if that isn’t good recruiting then I don’t know what is.
I don't know what star system you're using,
but that’s beside the point. Zero of those guys were consensus top-10 recruits. Are you telling me that FSU is such a backwater that I can’t expect 1 top-10 recruit a decade?
Should Purdue football expect 1 top 10 recruit per decade?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
That's how bad a basketball program we are?
Holy crap, you must think Hamilton is the 2nd coming of John Wooden.
If Georgia Tech, Stanford, NCST, Wake, Miss St, etc… can land consensus top 10 guys, why can’t we?
What level program do you think we are?
IMO GT, Stanford, NCST, and Wake are all ahead of us as far as basketball prestige. I would agree with trick as far as being on a Purdue football level
Over the past 5 seasons only Duke, UNC and Maryland
have won more ACC games. And you’re telling me that GT (dead last in that time period) and NCST (2nd to last) are out of our league when it comes to recruiting?
GT was in the National title game in 2004
NCST has won a national title and is located in North Carolina, a hoops hotbed. I’m referring to prestige and appeal to recruits.
So if Purdue football won more Big10 games than all but three teams
in the past five years you’d be arguing that their coach needed to be fired? If they won more than every team but one in the last two years? Purdue? As in, Purdue?
by norcal_nole on Mar 23, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
A two year window is a pretty small sample size.
I’d prefer people just stuck with the “past 5 years” one.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Um, when Hamilton took over this program we were worse than Purdue football.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
So my expectations are too high?
It’s too much to ask that our great recruiter land a top 10 recruit sometime in his career?
by norcal_nole on Mar 22, 2010 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Should Purdue football sign a top 10 player every decade?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Why the insistence on turning this into a football argument,
rather than answering my question?
Is 1 top 10 recruit per decade out of FSU’s league?
by norcal_nole on Mar 23, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
It's a comparison.
If you think Purdue should get 1 top 10 recruit per decade in football, than I will think FSU should get 1 per decade in basketball.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
If I wasn't a basketball I certainly would not be here.
Spare me the crap.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
basketball fan*
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
In other words, citing a Baylor, Purdue, Minnesota, etc,
is completely valid.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
You can also cite Tennessee, who is also a football school
That had the balls to go out, find a good coach at a small school, and look where they are now.
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 21, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Duke wasn't even Duke before Coach K, either.
They were good, much better than FSU pre-Robinson, but they weren’t “Duke”.
Coach K was a .553 coach at Army in his 5 years there and actually had a worse record his last 2 years there than his first 2 (23-28 vs 31-27).
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Who was Pitt before Ben Howland (NORTHERN ARIZONA!)?
Who was Jamie Dixon before he was head coach at Pitt?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Right. All Good examples!
Goes to show you how important the right guy is. Finding that guy can be a real bitch, though
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 21, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
I fear that as long as Hamilton shows the painfully slow improvement each year, the administration won’t be pressured or feel the need to look for better options. Hopefully he chooses to retire after his contract is up. But then we still need to hire the right coach!
FSU pre-Hamilton****
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
It's funny how simple the entire Hamilton argument really is.
We’ve discussed it at length, and it really boils down to FSU’s expectations. Nothing more.
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 21, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think it's simple though.
And I’m certainly not going in detail how it is or isn’t a simple argument lol.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Oh hell no...pick your battles
ANOTHER games goes to the wire!
by Randall W. Spetman on Mar 21, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
What process?
I see 1 more ACC win this year than 4 years ago. I see 0 more ACCT wins. I see 0 more NCAAT wins. I see a 22-10 record as opposed to a 20-10 record of 4 years ago.
Did you mean progress or process? I see neither.
Looking at on-court play, I see no improvement in our offense from 4 years ago. Actually, in each of our last 4 seasons, our offense has gotten worse. Honestly, I don’t think we’ve improved at all since the year Toney broke his hand. If he stayed healthy we likely would’ve Danced (bubble team, but I’ll give us the benefit of the doubt). From then until now, have we really improved?
Fwiw, Pomeroy has our ranking at:
2004 – 27
2005 – 87
2006 – 40
2007 – 34
2008 – 52
2009 – 36
2010 – 24
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
This was meant for norcal_nole.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
You don't see progress?
01-04: 4.7 ACC wins per season
04-07: 6.7 wins
07-10: 9.0 wins
You can blame Ham all you want for a Wisconsin buzzer beater or losing to a higher seeded Gonzaga, but the proof is in the pudding. We’re gotten consistently better against the best barometer – the ACC. We lose Toney (and I don’t need to recap how important he was) and come back and have the same ACC success (and don’t drop off the offense). And now we’re heading into a season where’s there’s actually something genuinely to be excited about. Just because 10-6 doesn’t mean anything to you (based on all that rivals.com talent we have) it was above the expectations of most Nole fans, and ALL neutral observers.
But you can tell
we have the potential talent to be so much better, but it has been shown that Hamilton recruits for potential, yet he doesnt have the ability to extract that potential from his players. IMO that is a problem
I'm guessing Toney and Al would disagree with you.
In 8 years Ham has recruited exactly zero guys who were consensus top-10 players. The NBA drafts on talent – FSUs performance is right in line with where they stand in the ACC with draft picks.
Toney and Al are self made players IMO
Both are extremely hard workers who improved their games immensely each year. More than talent, the NBA drafts on potential as well. However my problem is the basic parts of the game that Hamilton can’t instill into his players, such as breaking a trap, running a fast break, understanding how to run an offense. Does he only recruit players that make bad decisions and turn the ball over, or is that due to the fact that he doesn’t teach them how to handle pressure on the ball, or the correct ways to attack defenses.
That's my favorite argument.
Anything the players do well is because of the players mystical abilities to hit the gym at 3am, and anything the players do poorly is Ham’s fault. It’s a foolproof argument – I’ll give you that.
Except Toney and Al have both cited Ham several times in public as making them the players they are today, but I’m sure they were just throwing him a bone.
Coaches only have a certain amount of time to be around players
This is mandated by the NCAA as I’m sure you know. I played Division 1 sports and the thing I was most impressed with was how much the work a player puts in extra affects his performance. If a player only does what is mandated by practice and workouts, they will come nowhere near realizing their potential. And I’m sure the players do credit Ham as I’m sure they have a good relationship, however saying that he is responsible for them being there is something everyone says
I played a D1 sport and am the son of a professional athlete so I understand the dedication
it takes to make it to the next level. What I don’t understand is why your argument conveniently lumps Ham’s most successful athletes into a category which makes him a non-issue, and why his least successful athletes fall into a category in which he is completely to blame? You can’t pick and choose because it fits your argument – you’ve got to take the good with the bad. Either Ham has a large amount of effect on his kids, or he does not.
I didn't pick and choose
I believe he has a small impact on the development of a player, especially offensively, which you can see in the play of our team from the top of the roster to the bottom. Also, both players I chose are known for their above average dedication.
yea, thats true. now, I'm actually excited for next year's basketball season!
Tomorrow, I walk into my job and quit. I hate the weather in Cleveland anyway. I’m moving back to Tallahassee and buying season tickets at the TLCCC. Whats the job situation down there?
All is not lost; the unconquerable will/And courage never to submit or yield.
Do you read good?
Looking at on-court play, I see no improvement in our offense from 4 years ago. Actually, in each of our last 4 seasons, our offense has gotten worse. Honestly, I don’t think we’ve improved at all since the year Toney broke his hand. If he stayed healthy we likely would’ve Danced (bubble team, but I’ll give us the benefit of the doubt). From then until now, have we really improved?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I think tricknole and I have been in agreement all year...
regarding this team and the potential that we are underutilizing.
i’m not sure how you can argue that this team showed a lot of progess or improvement this year if you watch the play on the court compared to the talent we have. stop judging it against the ACC for a second and just assess it against ourselves.
i’ve already gone into detail throughout the year so i’ll just leave it at that
GoNolzOhio said
Those of us who are more critical of Hamilton actually make our analysis based on what is possible with the talent we have.
Which is exactly what you’re talking about.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
If Solomon leaves, I don't want to see a single Hamilton supporter predict anything more than the NIT bubble during the offseason...
since Alabi’s departure will surely be the built-in excuse used to defend another under performing team.
I think that that would be a weak excuse
I think that GIbson would replace, and possibly exceed Alabi’s production. But I see where you are going as far as Hamilton supporters using that as an excuse.
It just feels like every discussion of "next year" in this program has to include a 15 page Disclaimer regarding every player's decision to stay or go, whether or not our center grows 4 inches, and if a player can suddenly develop a 35 ft. range.
And only 1 of those things is an exaggeration of what I have seen posted on various message boards.
I understand what you're saying and agree.
But I almost hope he goes pro. I think getting Gibson more minutes can only be good and replacing Alabi with Kreft is an instant upgrade, imo. I want him to stay. I want James, Kreft, Gibson, Alabi, Shannon, White and Singleton all banging around with each other in practice. It can only help.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Yeah... Bernard James is the greatest power forward since Jerome Habel...
no wait Julian Vaughn… no wait Diego Romero…
If the football team had run through the kind of busts the basketball team has, there wouldn’t have been nearly as much gnashing of teeth when certain people were let go this year.
Not really sure where that came from.
I said I agreed with your original opinion.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Of those 3 you named, Diego Romero was the beast of the bunch.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
In-depth look at this year's Sweet 16 programs when Ham took over @FSU
It seems like everyone defending Ham loves to bring up the state of FSU’s program when he took over in 2002 as an excuse for the fact that it took him 7 years to get to the Tournament and after 8 years he still hasn’t gotten a win. I decided to take a detailed look at this year’s Sweet 16 participants, the state of their programs in 2001-2002, and how long it took their coaches to get them where they are now. I’ve also taken a look at what they’ve accomplished prior to this year.
It’s pretty amazing how bad most of these programs were at the same time Ham took over at FSU. Maybe this will open up some eyes to the fact that our program was in no worse shape than many of today’s successful programs.
Here’s FSU’s bio the year before Ham took over to compare to the other programs.
FSU
2001-2002 – 11-17 (4-12), RPI 128
Hamilton took over in 2002 and in his 7th season at FSU he led the Noles to the Tournament. He now has 2 trips to the dance but is yet to pick up a win there.
-——————-
Baylor
2001-2002 – 12-16 (4-12), RPI 155
Scott Drew took over in 2003-2004 after a murder of one teammate by another, and a cover-up by their head coach rocked the program. Despite NCAA penalties that included only being able to play conference games as recently as 2005-2006, he had Baylor in the Tournament just 2 years later and now has them in the Sweet 16 in his 7th year.
Purdue
2001-2002 – 13-18 (5-11), RPI 100
Matt Painter took over in 2005-2006 after a 7-21 season for the Boilers. In his first season at Purdue they went 9-19, but then he followed that season up with 4 straight trips to the NCAA Tournament (2nd rd, 2nd rd, Sweet 16, Sweet 16+?)
West Virginia
2001-2002 – 7-20 (1-15), RPI 211
John Belein took over an AWFUL West Virginia program the same year Ham took over at FSU. The difference? Belein got them to the Tournament just 2 years later and took them all the way to the Elite 8 that year. After that he had them in the Sweet 16 2 of the next 3 years before darting to Michigan. Now Bob Huggins is taking over where Belein left off.
Kansas State
2001-2002 – 12-16 (6-10), RPI 136
Bob Huggins took over an absolutely pathetic Kansas St. program in 2006-2007 and in his first year they just missed making the NCAA Tournament despite a 10-6 Big 12 record. The next year he handed the job over to Frank Martin who immediately got KState to the dance where he won their first Tournament game since 1988. Now in his 3rd year he has them in the Sweet 16 and could potentially make a run to the Final 4 or beyond.
Washington
2001-2002 – 10-18 (5-13), RPI 100
Lorenzo Romar took over the next year (the same year as Ham) and 2 years later he had Washington in the Tournament. Then the next year he had them in the Sweet 16. Since then he’s been to the Tournament 3 more times including a 3rd trip to the Sweet 16 this year.
Tennessee
2001-2002 – 14-16 (7-9) RPI 65
Bruce Pearl took over a Tennessee program in 2005 after 4 really bad years for the Vols. In his first year there he led them to the NCAA Tournament’s 2nd round and has been back to the dance every year since picking up 3 trips to the Sweet 16 along the way.
Mid-majors
Northern Iowa
2001-2002 – 14-15 (8-10), RPI 168
Ben Jacobsen took over in 2006-2007 and got Northern Iowa to the Tournament for the first time last year, and now has them in the Sweet 16 this year.
St. Mary’s
2001-2002 – 8-20 (3-11), RPI 256
Randy Bennett took over a pathetic St. Mary’s program in 2001-2002 and had the Gaels in the Tournament as an at-large 3 years later, and again in 2008. He didn’t pick up a win in either of those years but he now has the Gaels in the Sweet 16.
Cornell
2001-2002 – 4-22 (2-12), RPI 292
Steve Donahue took over a Cornell program in 2000 that was one of the worst in the NCAA. If there’s hope for Hamilton supporters it’s Donahue considering it took him 8 years to get Cornell to the dance and now in his 10th year he has them in the Sweet 16. Then again, Donahue did that without having a single guy even on Rivals’ recruiting radar. In other words he did it with good coaching, not just good recruiting.
-———————
Took this from SamENole over on Warchant.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Some numbnuts responded with this:
What’s the point of this post?
Seriously. What is it?
To prove that Hamilton isn’t the best coach in America? Shocker!
To prove that other coaches did it faster and with more success? Again. Shocking!!!!!
To prove that, overall, Hamilton’s first six years in Tallahassee were a disappointment? That’s truly groundbreaking stuff there.
If you can figure out a way to go back to 2002 and hire Bruce Pearl or Lorenzo Romar … I’m ALL FOR IT. Make it happen.
I know it sucks for you. But Hamilton isn’t going anywhere. The program IS getting better, it’s not wallowing in mediocrity … unless you think the departure of Ryan Reid is going to be a crippling blow to the program.
It’s like people think because I defend Ham I was happy with his first six years. I wasn’t. I was ready for him to go after 2007, to be honest. But he didn’t. And now, I like the direction of the program. It’s CLEARLY improving (unless I imagined those back-to-back tourney appearances). So I choose to look to the future, you know with an entire ROSTER coming back from a team that just finished third in the ACC … instead of looking back at the disappointments of 2005 and 2006.
That’s just me, though.
SamENole replied:
I’m about to board a plane home from Buffalo so this is gonna have to be quick. The point is that when Ham took over, the bad state of FSU’s program isn’t an excuse for the fact that Ham has underachieved just about every single year since he’s been here with the exception of 2008-2009. I don’t have time to look it up right now but I’d be willing to bet our recruiting classes have been better than most if not all of the schools above and just about every one of them has had more success in the past 8 years.
While we did break through with 2 trips to the NCAA Tournament, we’ve also had more talent these last 2 years than any years before, yet we still can’t run an efficient offense. We have 3 projected first round NBA draft picks and Gibson could potentially be a 4th.
When Solomon leaves (and if Chris leaves) our Defensive #s are sure to go down and probably dramatically. Does anyone expect our offense to make up for that? When your defense is #1 in the nation and your offense can’t score enough, what’s it gonna be like when our defense is #25 or #50 or worse (if Solomon and Chris are both gone)?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
If you Hamilton supporters still don't get it, you never will.
Just to be clear, I don’t hate Hamilton or think he should be fired. I don’t think most of us that are critical of him think that. But to simply look at it like, “We made the NCAAT this year and we weren’t making it prior to him arriving so we are improving and that’s all that matters so he must be the right guy” is beyond childishly simplistic.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I'm not a Hamilton supporter
but comparing FSU to the current hottest 16 programs in the country is just stupid. At least look into something that at least approaches objectivity – like coaches hired the same year (or whatever). Otherwise that poster’s agenda pushing rivals a politicians. And if you don’t see that, it’s likely because it fits your agenda.
If you don’t want to come across as a kook, objectivity is important.
by norcal_nole on Mar 22, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
It is objective.
He compared FSU to non-traditional powers that are currently in the sweet sixteen. You’re acting like he compared us to Duke and Kentucky. He’s talking about Baylor, St. Mary’s and so on. Those programs were not good back when Hamilton was hired (much like how FSU wasn’t good back then, either). Those programs can now all claim to be better than our own, based on objective standards.
The reason they’re the “hottest” is because their coaches got more done (NCAAT wins, Sweet Sixteens, objective measures) with less recruiting stars (another objective measure) than Hamilton has (no NCAAT wins, no Sweet Sixteens). Did you really not get that?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
So it would be perfectly objective to compare Ham to the 16 worst programs in the country?
by norcal_nole on Mar 23, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Your answer should have been "Yes, I really did not get that."
He is not comparing FSU to the top 16 teams in the country. That’s what you want to make it sound like to invalidate a good point.
He’s comparing FSU to non-traditional basketball powers who were in similar situations (one better situation and four much worse situations, imo) than us back in 2001-2002.
The point is that it is NOT too much to ask for from a coach to get one NCAAT win in 8 years. If you want to argue that MEAC and Sun Belt schools haven’t gotten an NCAAT win in 8 years and use that as evidence to support Hamilton, by all means, do it.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I'm not supporting anyone.
I’m pointing out the logical stupidity of comparing him to the 16 programs who’s fans are currently stoked, and saying “gee, wouldn’t that be better.”
What controls did he use in his random sample of other programs? He picked the 16 hot ones, and chose them all. Wow, what a genius Sam is. As someone who would have loved it if Ham got fired when he should have, these kind of ridiculous comparisons just make us look like whiny little entitled crybabies.
You're the genius.
I’ve repeatedly told you he didn’t use “the 16 hottest teams in America” and even explained that to you in some detail. And you still do not understand that I, nor SameE, are saying FSU should be top 16.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
Women make 2nd Sweet Sixteen in 4 years and are in their 6th straight NCAAT.
Mad props.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I have no idea if she annually underachieved as much as Hamilton.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
What I do know is she went out and fixed her failings as a coach to get the program to even greater heights.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
After her 7th season she had 1 NCAAT appearance and 0 NCAAT wins.
That offseason she hired a new defensive coach. They made the NCAAT the very next year. That offseason she hired a new offensive coach. They’ve made it the past 5 years since then, including only one 1st round exit and 2 sweet sixteens…
I think this only strengthens the case that SOMETHING must be done in the men’s program.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
I'm sorry you have a problem.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
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