Sports Illustrated's Andy Staples Talks Jimbo Fisher And Florida State With Tomahawk Nation
by Bud Elliott on May 13, 2010 2:54 PM EDT
in FSU Football
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PrintA few days ago I linked an article on Jimbo Fisher from Sports Illustrated's Andy Staples. Staples is one of it not the best college football writer in the country. He played ball for Florida and understands the game. But at the same time, he's analytical and doesn't rely on cliches like "I played the game, did you?" When SI contacted Tomahawk Nation about doing an interview on Jimbo Fisher and college football, we jumped at the opportunity. His responses appear in the shaded quote boxes.
Considering Fisher thinks FSU will be back and in the national title hunt sooner than we think... When do you think the Seminoles will be back to being in the conversation for national championships?
Fisher has good reason to think that. If the defense gets dramatically better, Florida State has the offense and the early-season out-of-conference schedule to catapult into the top 10 by the end of September. A win at Oklahoma and a home win against BYU would get voters' attention. The Seminoles might still have to win every game to play for the national title - the ACC just doesn't have the juice to get a one-loss team in over a one-loss SEC, Pac-10 or Big 12 team - but they would certainly have the opportunity. That's a big if, because that defense was really awful last season. But I understand why they think it could get a lot better. Playing zone will help account for the fact that FSU doesn't have better athletes in the secondary than everyone it plays (nobody has that anymore, really). The defensive line still seems a bit undersized, and I'm curious how many impact freshmen there will be on that side of the ball. I'm on record as saying Lamarcus Joyner is my favorite football player in the country in the class of 2010, and I think he could help right away. I know the coaches are really excited about Telvin Smith. I'm not sure how long Christian Jones and Jeff Luc will need to become impact players.
If the Noles don't get into the conversation this year, they could do it next year. We all know E.J. can play. The line would lose Rodney Hudson and Ryan McMahon, but Datko and the others would be back. Lonnie Pryor would still be there, and you know some young receivers will emerge between now and than. Plus, that's another year of this staff recruiting. So people have reason to be excited.
Andy is clearly on board with needing size in the front seven. As Fisher said, "FSU needs grown-ass men." Those guys will be in place in 2011 as we pointed out a few weeks ago, and FSU will have one of the 10 largest front-sevens in the country. As for Joyner, I'll follow up with Andy, but I wonder if he didn't mean Joyner will make an impact on special teams.
What was the most surprising thing you got from talking with and observing Fisher?
The most surprising thing was how quickly he's been able to put his plans into action. Usually, new coaches have to fight for stuff like new strength coaches [Fisher just hired the 9th full-time strength coach] and a nutritionist. The administration gave Fisher a lot of what he asked for, and that's a good sign. He's going to have to raise some dough to get his dorm and indoor facility, but the more immediate changes were more critical anyway. New coaches always have a vision for what they want, but oftentimes that vision collides with financial and administrative realities. It seems, in this case, that everyone is on board.
I wonder how much being on staff and talking to administrators and boosters for three years about why FSU was a middle-of-the-pack ACC team helped Fisher to get some of what he wanted?
What in your mind separates Fisher from other unknowns recently hired in the CFB world?
Fisher has a more detailed plan than most. He's most similar to Derek Dooley, another Saban disciple who was hired at Tennessee. The difference is that Fisher inherited a much better situation. As down as you guys have been on the way the previous staff let things slide, at least the program hasn't gone through two violent coaching changes like the one at Tennessee. Though some of the infrastructure and Xs and Os needed fixing at FSU, the program was healthier than many others. It helps a lot that Fisher, primarily through his own willingness to bust tail in recruiting the past few years, has brought in players who will accept his style of coaching. That should lessen some of the resistance that you usually see when a new coach takes over.
Finally, now that you have Mandel's AP vote, can you address the problem of voters focusing only on record and not on resume? Bob Stoops, Mark Richt, and Fisher have all discussed this issue and I don't think it gets enough publicity because the people who would be able to give it publicity (the media) are largely responsible. We're seeing fewer and fewer premier OOC matchups because big schools realize that they won't be penalized for buying wins against North Texas, FIU, etc. I understand writers can't watch every game, but some of the 4 or 5 loss teams play twice or even three times as many difficult games as the teams that dodge the toughies and feast on cupcakes. Seems to me the only way to punish this behavior is by taking a stance and not rewarding schools for their romp over North Texas.
As for the last question, I've had the AP vote for a year now. I vote on resume, not on record, which is why I had four-loss Stanford ranked quite a bit higher than other four-loss teams near the end of last season. That said, teams still have to win games. Did Alabama playing Chattanooga mean the Crimson Tide didn't deserve to play for the national title? No. Even if Alabama hadn't played Virginia Tech to start the season, the Tide still would have had to beat Ole Miss, LSU, Arkansas, Auburn and Florida. That's a pretty rough road. It's not our job to police scheduling with our poll votes, but I do take into account the competition teams have played when I rank them. If anything, it makes for an easy tiebreaker when one team has scheduled tough opponents and one has scheduled easy opponents. Scheduling tough opponents also is good for teams that need a boost. In question one, I mentioned FSU's schedule could help vault the Noles into the top 10. Other schools don't need that push, so why risk it?
I know some people will hit me with the Boise State argument, so please allow me a soapbox moment. We're not comparing apples and apples. It's easy for me to compare teams in the same conference. Last year, for example, Georgia Tech had to be ranked ahead of Virginia Tech because Georgia Tech beat Virginia Tech. Ditto for the Pac-10. Stanford had to be ahead of USC because Stanford pounded USC. But what about Boise State? They beat the only good team they played (Oregon), and that team turned out to be very good. Good enough to win an AQ-conference title, in fact. So where do I put them? Do I downgrade them because they play in the WAC? Well, that's not Boise State's fault. Boise State would join the Big 12 or Pac-10 tomorrow, but no one is offering a spot. So when you rank the teams, you do the best you can. Personally, I try to imagine who would win a neutral site game given the teams' current circumstances (injuries, suspensions, etc.) So when people ask me if I really believe Boise State - who I have at No. 2 in post-spring poll - would beat all those other teams, I answer honestly. Yes. In a one-off, neutral-site situation, I think Boise State beats those teams. I could be wrong, but that's my opinion. That always leads to someone saying that Boise State would lose four games if it played an SEC schedule. That's a foolish argument, because it doesn't take into account the fact that if Boise State played an SEC schedule, it also would have SEC revenue, SEC facilities and - most importantly - SEC players. Give Chris Petersen four years to coach and recruit at Ole Miss or Auburn, and he kills everyone. Don't believe me? People said what worked for Urban Meyer at Utah wouldn't work at Florida because he was upgrading from facing Mountain West players to facing SEC players. Those people must have assumed Meyer was bringing his roster with him from Salt Lake City. They didn't take into account the fact that he was coaching Florida players. You're an FSU fan. How has that worked out for the teams that have played Florida in the past five years? So I have a hard time with the "if they played in a better conference" argument. Believe me, Boise State, Utah and TCU want to play in a better conference. They'd love it.
I see what Andy is saying here, but Boise does not have SEC revenue or SEC facilities. It has Boise facilities, and if this team, in this season played an SEC schedule, it would likely lose three or more games. I think.
A big thanks to Andy Staples for his thoughtful answers and for consistently giving thoughtful, reasoned coverage of the game we love.
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I'm glad you addressed his last answer
It really bothered me. If I read it right, he basically said Boise would go undefeated in a good conference this year because in four years they’d be on par with the rest of the conference?
by Mr. Tito Carlos on May 13, 2010 3:27 PM EDT reply actions
I took it as him saying
If Boise were in a BCS conference they would have BCS players on their roster and facilities on par with other schools in a BCS conference because of receiving a hugh spike in revenue. The problem is that’s an argument for their program not their 2010 team. I don’t think they could beat 118 teams in one game on a neutral site which is what Staples is saying by ranking them second.
As for Boise in 2010, it’s really simple. If VT beats them convincingly, we won’t hear Boise mentioned in MNC talk. If Boise wins, it will take two undefeated BCS conference teams (Bama and Oh St perhaps) to keep them out of the big one.
"Remember, what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Except for Herpes. That s#!t will come back with you."
by Jamil Dawson on May 13, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I don't get his arguement
Now we should judge teams by the potential of their coach? Huh?
Who's fault is it for the OOC games they schedule???
Top 10 should be a best case scenario for them. The excuses are totally bogus. No one is saying it’s their fault that they play in a crap conference, but there is no way they would play the ten best teams and only lose one game! He WAY lost me on that logic.
If Dameyune Craig and James Coley are Crockett and Tubbs, does this mean that Odell Haggins and Rick Trickett are B. A. Baracus and Hannibal?
Yeah
No one is talking about what they could be. Most aren’t impressed by what they are.
"I think therefore I am not a Gator"
by Jamil Dawson on May 13, 2010 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think he was saying
that BSU would only lose 1 game if they played all top ten teams. I think we’d all agree that even Bama, a legitimate number 1 pre-ranked team would not win every game if they played #2-9.
I think he was saying that, at a neutral site, he would favor BSU against every team except Bama.
They might only be 3-5 point favorites against alot of good teams… which as we all know too well, leads to less favorable predictions (i.e. 3-4 loss season)
THERE IS NO WAY ONLY ONE TEAM IN AMERICA COULD BEAT BSU AT A NEUTRAL SITE!!!
Hopefully that sums up my thoughts a little better. How exactly does he come to that insane logic? Is it based on their one game schedule? How much better would FSU play if the ONLY game of the year was UF? They schedule all patsies and ONE good team and that impresses him? Please explain the logic that is obviously escaping me.
If Dameyune Craig and James Coley are Crockett and Tubbs, does this mean that Odell Haggins and Rick Trickett are B. A. Baracus and Hannibal?
read what stilts said again
staples thinks BSU is the second best team in America based on the players they have returning, not who they schedule. Obviously, as stilts notes, Staples would favor them at a neutral site against everyone but Bama.
I could argue that an undefeated D2 team should be in the NCG by that logic.
The whole point is that teams are supposed to play their way into a NC not avoid their way in one. What does that say about these voters that they vote for unproven teams. Of course they can’t help their conference games, but to avoid 3 or 4 quality OOC games means they don’t even take themselves seriously.
If Dameyune Craig and James Coley are Crockett and Tubbs, does this mean that Odell Haggins and Rick Trickett are B. A. Baracus and Hannibal?
I think he's just saying 3 things, which seem consistent:
1. On a neutral site, the actual BSU team (in the WAC) would beat any team Staples ranks >2 (BSU = 2)
2. The actual BSU team (in the WAC) would lose (roughly) 3 games if they played in the SEC.
3. If BSU’s coach were in the SEC (and had SEC calibur players), his team would win the SEC (like Meyer did at Florida).
Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....
The problem is this part
That always leads to someone saying that Boise State would lose four games if it played an SEC schedule. That’s a foolish argument, because it doesn’t take into account the fact that if Boise State played an SEC schedule, it also would have SEC revenue,
This is a question about his vote this year, for this BSU team. I have no doubt that the Boise Staff could produce a better product with SEC facilities and 4 years of recruiting in the SE, but this statement doesnt address how he feels this team would do against an SEC schedule. In fact, it makes an excuse that indirectly admits that SEC sched complaint has merit.
by Mr. Tito Carlos on May 13, 2010 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
That's another thing that gets me
I thought the vote was for the best football teams in America right now, but it sounds like he’s admitting that there are 3-4 SEC teams that are better. And that’s only one conference. Is this the “Best 25 teams in America” vote or the “Best 25 teams grading on a sliding scale to account for the difference in revenue and local recruiting strength” vote?
If Dameyune Craig and James Coley are Crockett and Tubbs, does this mean that Odell Haggins and Rick Trickett are B. A. Baracus and Hannibal?
well, kinda, but not really
He’s not admitting there are 3-4 better SEC teams than BSU. He’s admitting that BSU isn’t built to handle an SEC schedule the same way SEC schools are. He thinks in a one shot, neutral game, BSU would likely beat any of them, but basically admits this BSU team would be worn down over the course of a season. He’s saying that if each game was played in a bubble, BSU would win each of them. I dont agree with his method ranking teams, or the conclusion he came to using that method.
There is a debate over how much to consider schedule when ranking a team. My gripe is over how he dismisses people who this the schedule should play a larger role in the ranking. He basically admits that BSU would not be as highly ranked using that criteria, but says you can’t use that criteria on the basis of a non-existant scenario.
by Mr. Tito Carlos on May 14, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I have no problem with pointing out that they're stuck with conference match-ups.
But if they don’t make up for that by playing a tough OOC schedule, they should not even be considered for top 5 consideration. They have control over that and AVOID real teams. Having a 1 game schedule makes you nothing more then a 1 game wonder.
If Dameyune Craig and James Coley are Crockett and Tubbs, does this mean that Odell Haggins and Rick Trickett are B. A. Baracus and Hannibal?
do they avoid real teams?
or do real teams avoid them?
this is an excellent point
because of the way schedule has no impact besides maybe a tiebreaker why would anyone want to play them ooc?
CP7: Sliding is teh weak sauce
by stevegrizzle on May 15, 2010 5:54 AM EDT up reply actions
They want 900K for a road game
They aren’t an automatic win. That’s too much.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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by Bud Elliott on May 15, 2010 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly!
Setting their demands to the level of an Alabama or Florida shows that they want to make sure no one takes the bait. And they can continue cry a river that “No one wants to schedule us.”
If Dameyune Craig and James Coley are Crockett and Tubbs, does this mean that Odell Haggins and Rick Trickett are B. A. Baracus and Hannibal?
right
i read after i posted about the home and home or paid road game only policy. thats just silly. I hope they get creamed by VT.
Who did they play in their bowl last yr? I thought they won big.
CP7: Sliding is teh weak sauce
by stevegrizzle on May 16, 2010 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Read what he said.
No1 is going undefeated and probaly not even 9-1 against the top 10 teams. What he is saying that if BSU played 1 game, against each of the teams, he would favor them over all but one.
SoCalNole – You agree they aren’t an automatic win, that they should be too respected to be paid as much? Then why won’t anyone respect them enough to come to Boise? You say they are too small to come play, but yet too good to pay them to come to your place?
Old enough to know better, too young to care.
Great interview
I’m not as certain as he is that Boise State wants to be in the Pac 10 or Big 12. I think they enjoy having a one game regular season and then running through the WAC and cashing in with a BCS bid, now that their name is big enough to expect BCS recognition if they go undefeated.
If Boise State truly wanted to join an automatic qualifier league, I would expect to see them upgrading their academics – which I have always heard is the big hurdle to them moving to the Pac 10 or Big 12.
At the very least, shouldn’t they be making a bigger effort to join the Mountain West, which would be darn close to automatic qualifier status if they were to add Boise State?
They are
improving their academics, but it doesn’t happen over night. BSU’s president, Dr. Robert Kustra, is on a mission to make Boise State a “metropolitan research university of distinction”. Boise State still has a long way to go to be considered such, but they are making rapid progress.
Are they 3rd tier or 2nd
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AQ stands for Automatic Qualifier. It’s the six conferences whose champions get automatic bids BCS bowl games.
auto-qualifier (bcs)
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Really enjoyed this
I had the opportunity to sit next to Andy at the Bowden Roast last summer and have followed him since then. He really is a great writer, and is also quite the bbq expert.
I mentioned FSU’s schedule could help vault the Noles into the top 10. Other schools don’t need that push, so why risk it?
Like most voters he’s already decided who is good. If one of the chosen pre-ranking kings happens to fail he (and others) will adjust (unless it’s USC /half-joke?), instead of starting everyone at 0. That way of thinking is why we’ll keep having cupcake games, and is why even FSU will be going that way, regardless of how successful (or not) they are against OOC teams this year, despite that we “need that push.”
Not that that is news to me or any other frequent reader here. Still depressing though, even if we’ll be able to capitalize on it.
It is pre-ranking
There should be NO ranking of any kind until after week 6.
If Dameyune Craig and James Coley are Crockett and Tubbs, does this mean that Odell Haggins and Rick Trickett are B. A. Baracus and Hannibal?
I agree 100 percent
but then what would college football fans bitch about?
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on May 13, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
And guess what:
Those rankings would look the exact same way when they’re released in week 6 as they do in the current system. This is an old and tired argument that has never gained traction for a reason. The problem isn’t preseason opinion – it’s the voting that’s done during and after the season, period.
Totally disagree
Most years the difference between pre-season and even week 3 polls change significantly. However, since so many voters don’t want to look like idiots, they continue to boost a team just because of said pre-season vote. If this were to be done away with you would not have nearly so much voting based on saving face.
If Dameyune Craig and James Coley are Crockett and Tubbs, does this mean that Odell Haggins and Rick Trickett are B. A. Baracus and Hannibal?
This is true and exactly why I say it's the voting during and after the season that needs to change.
Nothing will stop sportswriters from publishing their preseason opinions and coaches from ripping off the media polls when they’re made public. You can’t regulate this one, and fans like weekly rankings in college football, flawed or not.
Like I said, he's part of the new generation who puts in serious hours and doesn't just mail it in.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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Also helps that he grew up in the Orlando area (Lake Brantley HS Class of ’96) and got to see a lot of us in the dynasty years.
Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
by mmmCheese on May 13, 2010 4:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Did you read the tribute to his mother?
Thought it was really touching.
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No I didn't.
I was a year ahead of him and he and my brother were in a lot of the same classes. But I’ll definitely look it up.
Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
by mmmCheese on May 13, 2010 5:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The one after Bama won?
Yeah it was. I’ve emailed Staples often – usually for his failure to take Meyer to the woodshed for his resignation/return debacle, and he’s always responed, even when I call him out. He’s good at his job and gives a crap.
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on May 13, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
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What was his response?
CP7: Sliding is teh weak sauce
by stevegrizzle on May 15, 2010 5:58 AM EDT up reply actions
He's good people.
I’ve been covering HS sports for the Tampa Trib for about 8 years. When I started Andy covered pasco county for the Trib. He was always very helpful and showed me the ropes.
by PullingGuardGator on May 13, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
By keeping up with the non-traditional media
he is way ahead of the traditional media.
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Weighted record?
Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but are there any metrics out there that can convert a W/L record into a weighted W/L record based upon the rankings of opponents?
If not, why isn’t there? Couldn’t we do something like multiply a win by a percentage with opponents rank as the numerator and the total number of teams as a denominator? It seems like this would be an interesting way to rate a team’s success while factoring in schedule. If more consideration was given to a metric such as this, it might help to reverse the weak OOC schedule bias that exists.
There are stats that rank teams based on their opponent and the situation. One of the more popular ones is the FEI. Here is a link for last years results and an explination.
Notables:
1. Alabama
2. Florida
3. VaTech
4. Ohio State
5. Georgia Tech
6. Texas
8. TCU
10. Miami
13. Clemson
15. North Carolina
16. Boise State
24. Florida State
Funny how everyone dogs the ACC
but that’s 2 teams in the top 5 and 5 teams in the top 15 nationally.
Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole
Nice stuff
Congrats on Tomahawk Nation hooking up with one of the best covering college football. Solid answers all around and once again shows he knows what is happening across the national landscape. I also liked to hear the comment about Joyner. Can’t wait to see him on the field.
"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time." - Vince Lombardi
Sort of surprised ESPN hasnt gone after this guy
he would INSTANTLY make their coverage of college football better. He is clearly one of (if not) the best writers in all of college sports, and I’ll include analysts in that sentiment. I guess I see where he’s coming from in terms of the Boise State argument, although I believe SOS should definitely have a bearing on ranking. Sure I understand that you can only do with what your schedule asks you to do (win all of your games, such as Boise State winning their only 2 “real games”), but I do not honestly believe that Boise State would have much of a chance on a neutral field with Ohio State, Florida and a handful of other teams. In fact, I believe FSU Boise State would be a highly competitive game. From what I understand, a lot of big schools don’t want to schedule games with Boise State because they don’t want the 1-1 in which they have to travel to Idaho. So in their defense, they’re doing what they can. Having said that, in my opinion, the polls should include the following features:
A. Indicate who the BEST teams in the country are in terms of EVERY team above them would beat them on a neutral field more than 50% of the time, and EVERY team below them would beat them less than 50% of the time.
2. Show that a team has won the games on their schedule (yes record should play a large part in rankings)
D. Look at HOW a team has played and take into account factors other than W/L
If they were truly serious about showing how good they were, they would not schedule home and homes
and play at some good BCS teams to prove their ability. That is what FSU did to rise to prominence, with Bowden’s play anyone, anywhere attitude. However, they are just playing the scheduling game now just like everyone else is, so can’t really call them out on it.
>>>-----------;;;-->CP7 for Heisman>>>-----------;;;-->
Absolutely it's not BSU's fault
They get to reap all the rewards of idiotic voting logic like that.
If Dameyune Craig and James Coley are Crockett and Tubbs, does this mean that Odell Haggins and Rick Trickett are B. A. Baracus and Hannibal?
If they were truly serious about showing how good they were, they would not schedule home and homes and play at some good BCS teams to prove their ability
That’s why they have Va. Tech on the schedule this year. And just last week announced a road opener with Ole Miss in Oxford, no return home-game.
Boise State really does want to be in a different conference in my opinion. Or at least one with more competition in it. They tried to get into the MWC in 2005, but they selected TCU instead. Now it’s looking more and more likely that they will get that invite in the next couple of months.
I think the AD and staff would jump at the opportunity to play in the PAC10 or BIG12, given the chance.
I don’t think the “SEC schedule” argument is very good at all. First, there are only 12 teams in the SEC, so the other 108 FBS team could be lumped in with Boise State too. Being a Boise State fan I hear it lot, but they always use the SEC as the example conference. Apparently the only teams that can survive the SEC, are SEC teams, and maybe the Saints.
Boise State soundly beat Oregon last year, who went on to be PAC10 champion. I would say that I believe that this year’s Bronco team could compete for a PAC10 title, this year.
Maybe not an SEC title, but I believe they could compete at a BCS Conference level today. Sure they probably would no longer go undefeated every year, but you don’t have to once you’re in a BCS Conference. Right? The money rolls in either way, just ask Duke.
Anyway, from a Boise State fans perspective, I would love to see the Broncos come to play Florida State (I reside in southern Kentucky). As long as Boise State is considered “mid-major”, I think they’ll continue to ask for the 900k price tag that comes along with the title. Guaranteed win or not.
I do think those days are numbered though. And rightfully so.
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
Boise needs to play 4 or 5 ranked teams per year in the regular season to make up for the crap they play in division.
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Or we could just go 49-4 in the past 4 seasons
With a record of 4-2 against ranked teams.
And oh yeah, there’s those two Fiesta Bowl wins.
"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?'" - Jeremy Bentham
by Please Spay and Neuter Your Pets on May 20, 2010 4:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Again, gaming the system.
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Could it be that the "Chief Blogger" took down my poll because he was embarrassed by the results?
I wanted to get a feel for how the rest of Tomahawk Nation felt Boise State would do against the ACC . Since you had an entire topic devoted to Boise State, such a poll made sense.
I can only surmise that the results showed 90% or more of your fans believe Boise State would have gone undefeated. Otherwise, the poll would have remained. If you are not embarrassed by the results, I welcome the opportunity to repost – or even better yet, for the “Chief Blogger” (is that you Bud?) to post the poll. That way, we’ll know once and for all.
There is a lot of talk in the National Media of how similar Boise State’s run is to Florida State’s. It’s a compliment to FSU. It would be fun to discuss the differences and to post on each others’ blogs.
What say you? Are you up for the challenge of revealing your own fans’ true beliefs about Boise State? Or are you too scared of the results?
"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?'" - Jeremy Bentham
by Please Spay and Neuter Your Pets on May 21, 2010 3:53 AM EDT up reply actions
You can't deny that Boise State has made it big time
No matter how much you try to stick your head in the sand.
I was hoping your fellow bloggers at Florida State would appreciate the similar paths we have taken and enjoy a poll – and comments – discussing how your fans feel Boise State would fare against your opponents.
"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?'" - Jeremy Bentham
by Please Spay and Neuter Your Pets on May 21, 2010 4:07 AM EDT up reply actions
We don't bite, you know
"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?'" - Jeremy Bentham
by Please Spay and Neuter Your Pets on May 21, 2010 4:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I took it down because you didn't read the rules.
We don’t give a damn about Boise. This is an FSU site. Let’s keep the Boise talk to this thread. Or, write a better fanpost.
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The results were split between the 6-7 win and 8-9 win choices, FTR
He removed it because it’s in the rules of our site. It has to pertain to FSU for us to discuss it as a fanpost.
>>---l>
Appreciate the results... disagree with reasons for not keeping poll
- Does FSU play in the ACC? Yes
- Was there an entire FanPost dedicated to comparing BSU to FSU? Yes
- Was the bulk of the discussion dealing with “Strength of Schedule”? Yes
- Was the poll referencing how well Boise State compares to Florida State? Yes
My guess on why the poll was pulled… too many FSU fans gave BSU too much credit. (Our Loque said there were about 90 votes and most of them voted for 8-9 wins, 3-4 losses.)
Sadly, it’s another case of the “Big Boys” being scared of the “Little Guys” gaining too much respect.
"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?'" - Jeremy Bentham
by Please Spay and Neuter Your Pets on May 21, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Lol I'd have to disagree
We’re none to concerned with the respect Boise gets. I’ll talk about their strength of schedule as long as you want, but I understand why Bud wasn’t interested in turning the focus of our discussion to something that could never happen (Boise in the ACC).
>>---l>
I could personally give a crap about your team.
Other then being happy you all beat OU however many years ago, I dont even remember watching your highlights.
Tomahawk Nation = greatest sport website
greatest sport website = dedicated to the greatest college football team.
greatest college football team = FSU
FSU is not Boise State.
Your argument is invalid.
Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole
Oh....I get it
Boise is getting ranked based on something they’re not. They are NOT in the SEC, The DON’T have the stadium, RECRUITS, or money.
There are many teams that you could say would be much improved with those advantages. I’ve never heard anyone say “if Boise were in the SEC…” it’s always if Boise were to “play an SEC” schedule, which is much more relevant in determining how good the team actually is. I would take it a step further and say they don’t make it thru a Big East schedule undefeated.
I posted this idea above
I don’t think he is saying that BSU would be undefeated in the SEC. He just would have them as favorites against all the SEC teams except bama.
Maybe he’s been reading Bud’s articles and realizes that if he took this same BSU team that he would have as favorites against all those SEC teams, he’d still only give them 60-70% chance of winning most games, which would lead to a 3-4 loss season. Yet they’d still be the favorite (i.e. ranked higher)
I didn't assume he was saying that either...
I’m just looking at it from the ranking standpoint. I didn’t think his response to the argument made sense:
Saying Boise would lose 4 games against a tougher schedule has nothing to do with how they would do in another conference in some far off fairytale land. We are talking about Boise “AS IS”.
Agreed
I did think his argument fell apart when he started talking about the changes BSU would have if they were part of a BCS conference.
However, he did say that he tries to rank according to who he thinks would win a head-to-head neutral site game.
You can still think a team is better than alot of teams and expect them to lose 3-4 games in a tougher schedule based on percentages.
You're right
Attrition doesn’t play a role in the head-to-head neutral site games they way it does over a full 12 game sched. I don’t think Boise can beat some of those teams they are ranked in front of in an H2H neutral site game. Top 10? Yes. #2? Not at all.
"I think therefore I am not a Gator"
by Jamil Dawson on May 14, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
"You're an FSU fan. How has that worked out for the teams that have played Florida in the past five years? "
Ummmmm did anyone send him the post Jeff Bowden era memo?
Nice swipe,Dude…
Bud, maybe you can interview him again after we stomp their azz? ; )
I don't understand this logic that he uses:
A beats B, thus A is ranked higher than B
C beats A, thus C is ranked higher than A and B
What happens when B beats C?
That’s never happened in the history of sports so why argue it.
by evenflow58 on May 14, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I emailed Andy to clarify his last answer.
This is his response:
Please feel free to forward this along.
If you look at my power rankings for the first half of last season, you’ll see I bashed Boise State’s schedule every chance I got. Then I figured out what was really happening. As a WAC member, Boise State is forced to play in a system (the BCS) designed to exclude it from playing for the national title. I realized I can’t fault the people in Boise for finding the one loophole in that system and trying to exploit it. The bottom line is this: If other programs think Boise State is such a fraud, then they should play the Broncos and beat them. Virginia Tech or Oregon State could do just that this year. If they don’t, I bet Boise State plays for the national title against an Alabama, an Ohio State or someone of that ilk. Again, the solution is simple. Beat them. Until someone does, the Broncos have earned the benefit of the doubt in my book.
The burden should lie with boise to prove they’re worthy, not the rest of cfb to prove they aren’t. I bet there are teams willing to schedule them if they didn’t insist on a home/home. Take a page from FSU in the 80’s.
What if they don't have to?
If they run the table this season and VT and Or St go on to have good seasons, Boise is in.
"I think therefore I am not a Gator"
by Jamil Dawson on May 14, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
jason
I’d agree with you in most situations, but last year Boise did beat two of the best 10 teams in football IMO, so maybe they deserve to be ranked at least top 8 heading into this season. Maybe not #2, but they have to be considered one of the best.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on May 14, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
They do schedule one-off games, as I posted above.
They prefer home-and-home series, because let’s be honest who doesn’t?
Going to D.C., Oxford, and possibly Omaha in the near future is exactly what Boise State is doing, now. I have to agree with Andy. If you doubt their legitimacy, call your AD and demand a game with Boise State.
A guy from SBNation contacted Tom Osborne about playing Boise State for next year’s open date. Tom responded and said their schedule was filled but soon after came reports that Boise State and Nebraska were working together on a series in the next couple of years. It works.
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
They need to do more per year. Accept less money, don't demand a return game, and win multiple big games per year like FSU did.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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Like this year?
Va. Tech and PAC10 Runner-up Oregon State? Is that not enough? I suppose Wyoming and Toledo are pushovers…
It’s easy to say “accept less money” when you have the boosters and home games in your pocket. Boise State needs the money just to travel to the away game, which in turn is why they hold-out for a series. Where they can recoup those losses at home. Which is the same reason teams like Florida or Florida State don’t play OOC games out side the state of Florida very often.
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
No, Oregon State is definitely not enough. Oregon State would need to be the 3 or the 4. They would be the 6th or 7th toughest game on FSU's schedule.
And yes, Wyoming and Toledo are pushovers.
You’re not fooling anyone with the “needs the money to travel” excuse. 900k for travel expenses? Just not accurate.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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Boise played one of the worst 20 schedules in the country. It needs all 4 non-con games to be against top 25 teams.
Because almost every decent major conference team would easily run through Boise’s conference schedule. It’s almost as bad as the sunbelt.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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Well, at least you said "almost".
But what about Maryland, Virginia, Wake Forest, NC State, Duke and who was it last year? Jacksonville State?
Point being, everyone has doormats on their schedule. Hawaii, Nevada and Fresno State are not bad teams, they’ve just never been able to sustain success year in, year out the way Boise State has. Idaho even stepped up last year, which was infinitely surprising. I’ll give you New Mexico State, San Jose State, and Utah State, they’re horrible. And they have very little to look forward to.
But assuming Boise State is lacking because their WAC counterparts are, is akin to making fun of the student who helps the teacher teach the asperger’s kids how to behave. There’s nothing wrong with him, he’s just stuck in the classroom, and it’s rude anyway so knock it off.
Demanding they schedule only ranked opponents is equally asinine;
“Hey future opponent, we’d like to schedule a game with you in the future. What say about 4-5 years from now? Oh, by the way, please be ranked in the top 25 when we come to town. Thanks!”
That’s a little nit-picky don’t you think?
Case in Point;
Boise State scheduled Bowling Green and the beginning of the decade. Urban Meyer is there doing his thing and Bowling Green is ranked and gaining some street cred… fast forward to last year where the series final game is being played. No Urban, no ranking, and a no good team to boot.
I believe Boise State schedule a series with So. Miss and a similar thing occured.
Ranked when scheduled, unranked when gametime came around.
It would be supremely difficult to predict who will be ranked 3,4,5 years from now. Sure there are some perennial ranked teams; Ohio State, Random SEC team, USC and so on. But being able to put together one year where you play them all and they’re all ranked would almost be impossible, let alone to do it every year. Who do you think does the scheduling at Boise State, Don King?
Besides that, nobody loads down their OOC with ranked opponents. I suppose your rebuttal will be that nobody else has the sorry conference schedule that Boise State has. I’d then point to the Big East and laugh uproariously.
We can agree that Boise State desperately needs to face better competition on a weekly basis. But really, they aren’t grinding out these games either. Sure there is the occasional tough conference road game that any team has to endure. But since 2000 Boise State’s PPG average is 41.5, their opponents during the same span is 20 PPG. There overall conference record is 63-2. It is safe to say they’ve outgrown the WAC.
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
The point isn't that everyone has a few doormats on their schedule, it's that Boise's is so far away from the stratosphere of respectable.
You want to nit pick with language? How about perennial BCS conference bowl teams?
Besides that, nobody loads down their OOC with ranked opponents. I suppose your rebuttal will be that nobody else has the sorry conference schedule that Boise State has. I’d then point to the Big East and laugh uproariously.
The Big East is loads better than the WAC. It’s not close. I hope you’re not trying to argue that.
I’m about total schedule, not conference or non-con. If your conference is awful, you have to schedule an insane OOC.
Luckily for Boise, you don’t have to under the current system.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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We can agree that Boise State desperately needs to face better competition on a weekly basis. But really, they aren’t grinding out these games either.
Good teams from the major conferences smash those teams as well. They aren’t arguing to play for a championship because they play a respectable schedule resulting in a few losses.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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Point being, everyone has doormats on their schedule. Hawaii, Nevada and Fresno State are not bad teams, they’ve just never been able to sustain success year in, year out the way Boise State has. Idaho even stepped up last year, which was infinitely surprising. I’ll give you New Mexico State, San Jose State, and Utah State, they’re horrible. And they have very little to look forward to.
All of the highlighted teams would finish last in the ACC. They are awful. It’s a bit disrespectful to Fresno that you throw them in there.
If Boise played a schedule like Fresno, they’d be Fresno and not a media darling.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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by Bud Elliott on May 17, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
All of the highlighted teams would finish last in the ACC. They are awful. It’s a bit disrespectful to Fresno that you throw them in there.
Fresno is good for two or three losses every year. They get attention for scheduling tough opponents, beating them, and then they kick themselves in the nuts and lose to Utah State.
If anything, they are the proof that anyone can get up for one game, but if you over look the doormat you might trip over it.
Boise State is proof that a systematic approach to each game gets you 13-0, 14-0, WAC championships and BCS Bowl wins. It gets you 112-17 in the last ten seasons, 63-2 in conference play and exactly TWO home losses in ten years. All that makes you a media darling.
Getting big-headed about your OOC schedule only to lose to your conference cupcake gets you laughed at.
Boise State knows what they need to do to win and they do it. You can’t blame them for that. Trust me, you’ll be hard-pressed to find a Bronco fan that doesn’t want them to move to a different conference.
All of the highlighted teams would finish last in the ACC. They are awful.
Agreed. Any of them could also beat Duke, Maryland, NC State or Virginia on a any given day though.
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
A systematic approach to each game?
try a systematic approach to 1-2 games per year. When Boise has a bad day it wins. When a team with a respectable schedule has a bad day it loses. That’s the difference.
It gets you 112-17 in the last ten seasons, 63-2 in conference play and exactly TWO home losses in ten years. All that makes you a media darling.
Against a huge group of nobodies. Boise plays a 1-2 game season and can focus on those games all year. They don’t face the battle of attrition.
Agreed. Any of them could also beat Duke, Maryland, NC State or Virginia on a any given day though.
That’s irrelevant. That 6 of your conference games are worse than anything you’d get in the ACC is a pretty good indicator of the joke of a schedule Boise plays.
Boise State knows what they need to do to win and they do it. You can’t blame them for that. Trust me, you’ll be hard-pressed to find a Bronco fan that doesn’t want them to move to a different conference.
Boise needs to stay where they are. They join the Pac 10 or Big 12 and they are a 3+ loss team on a yearly basis. Perhaps that is what Boise wants?
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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Boise needs to stay where they are. They join the Pac 10 or Big 12 and they are a 3+ loss team on a yearly basis. Perhaps that is what Boise wants?
This is exactly what we want:
Mikrino: Trust me, you’ll be hard-pressed to find a Bronco fan that doesn’t want them to move to a different conference.
38Noles: I’m not as certain as he is that Boise State wants to be in the Pac 10 or Big 12. I think they enjoy having a one game regular season and then running through the WAC and cashing in with a BCS bid … If Boise State truly wanted to join an automatic qualifier league, I would expect to see them upgrading their academics – which I have always heard is the big hurdle to them moving to the Pac 10 or Big 12.
..
LoqueID’s indirect reply: I can’t believe I read that from someone. Please don’t assume you know anything about this. We would rather go 5-4 in the PAC-10 or 4-4 in the SEC any year that play in the WAC. [Even then,] it still may get us in a BCS game.
Are you even reading what we’re typing?
Even with 3-losses, we’re in the BCS. Even with 1-loss, we’re be in the NC game.
"Everyone counted us out. I don't know why they keep doing that." -- Kyle Wilson
That's if you're in the SEC
And you’re definitely not in the BCS with 3 losses playing in the Pac-10.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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Wait a minute...
How many losses did PAC10 champ Oregon have last season?
How many did ACC champ(I think) GA Tech have?
Didn’t both those teams play in BCS Bowls with multiple losses? Hmmm. I think so.
Your argument is very circular. Obviously going undefeated in the WAC counts for something. Apparently voters, BCS computers, and bowl selection committees are aware that the Broncos are still in the FBS. Whether you personally agree with it is beside the point. Andy Staples understands it. If you think they’re overrated, then encourage your AD to schedule them. Until then it doesn’t matter much. You can talk about the wins your team could pile up if they were in the same spot. It’s all speculation though.
That’s why games aren’t played on Internet blogs. We’d have 120 national champions.
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
Single-season sample set? Really?
How many regular season losses has the Pac-10 champ had in the last 3 years? 5 years?
GT had 2 regular season losses. @ Miami and @ UGA.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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by Bud Elliott on May 17, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Last time I checked 2 is more than zero.
Which is what Boise State has to have to even be considered for BCS spot (they’ve been left out twice with undefeated seasons).
Still, your subverting the actual point. Right now the Broncos must go undefeated to get a better bowl game and a shot to shut a few more of you up. BCS conference teams need to be in the conference. That’s it. The money rolls in whether your 12-0 or 2-10. That’s hardly fair. Then they ride the excuse that they’ve “earned” it. Really?
What has Duke earned in football? Vanderbilt? South Florida? Rutgers? Baylor? Minnesota? Even Notre Dame gets by on what they did 60 years ago.
How is that even relevant? You keeping touting how FSU went on the road and “earned” their place. How many wins did that get them last year? how many will it get them this year?
It’s ridiculous elitism. Old money mentality. Eventually though you’re idiot grandkids will blow it on beer and hookers. But whatever.
This is the song that never ends…
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
I don't see those teams playing in BCS games, do you?
I’m saying earn your way to the champ game or to a BCS game by your resume during the season.
Think FSU had money when it started out in the late 70s?
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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by Bud Elliott on May 18, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry Mikrino, gotta disagree with ya'
The ACC is only given cred as an AQ conference for 2 reasons:
1. It’s a basketball powerhouse
2. Florida State plays in the ACC
We know FSU is nowhere near the FSU of the 90’s, and I don’t see any basketball players on the football team.
The bottom line is that Nevada and Utah State would finish at least in the middle of the pack. Hawaii might finish in the middle, but would not be at the bottom. San Jose State and New Mexico are pretty bad, but they’re not Duke-bad. For that matter, they’re not even North Carolina bad.
I wish I could stick up for the ‘Heels, but I just can’t. They stink and I’ll be the first to admit it. They remind me of Fresno… lots of potential every year, but they just can’t close the deal.
"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?'" - Jeremy Bentham
by Please Spay and Neuter Your Pets on May 20, 2010 5:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Oops... forgot to reference the Quote I was writing about
All of the highlighted teams would finish last in the ACC. They are awful.
"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?'" - Jeremy Bentham
by Please Spay and Neuter Your Pets on May 20, 2010 5:07 AM EDT up reply actions
OK, upon further review I was probably a little biased
Utah State might finish towards the bottom instead of the middle of the ACC, and New Mexico would probably contend with San Jose and Duke every year for the title of of “Wish we had a real football program, but we don’t”. But I still think Nevada would hold its own in the ACC.
I guess my frustration with Boise’s lack of respect was showing a little… sorry about that.
"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?'" - Jeremy Bentham
by Please Spay and Neuter Your Pets on May 20, 2010 5:58 AM EDT up reply actions
That's a joke
The Heels will have a top 5 defense in the country this year. You are out of your mind if you think Duke is worse than SJSU or New Mexico.
>>---l>
Carolina is just like Fresno State
They never live up to their expectations. And that’s coming from a Tarheel.
"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?'" - Jeremy Bentham
by Please Spay and Neuter Your Pets on May 21, 2010 3:55 AM EDT up reply actions
How many first rounders has Fresno had?
UNC could have 3 or 4 off this year’s defense alone.
>>---l>
Big East is not the only "doormat" AQ conference
The ACC is also weak in football. Florida State gave it some much-needed cred in the 90’s, but that’s long gone (sorry ‘Noles fans). The ACC was continually used as FSU’s toilet paper during that time, and no other team could get consistent momentum to place them in the top 25. Only with the Noles decline in the 00’s have some of the bottom suckers “risen to the top” lately.
I do not buy that all AQ conferences are “superior”. If you don’t think college football has parity, look at what Utah did to Alabama in the Sugar Bowl, what Boise State (only a D1 program for 11 years at the time) did to Oklahoma in the Fiesta Bowl, etc.
The “5-star” recruits are not all they’re cracked up to be. It’s about how a team plays together that really matters.
"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?'" - Jeremy Bentham
by Please Spay and Neuter Your Pets on May 20, 2010 4:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Complete inability to look at the big picture
First in the formula of computer rankings that the BCS uses to judge conference depth the ACC is second only to the SEC. The ACC also for the last couple of years has finished with more top 25 teams in the Coaches and AP poll than most conference in America. It is light years ahead of the WAC in depth.
Second, read this, this, and this. The overwhelming preponderance of evidence shows that the teams that play win NCs and dominate top conferences are the ones who recruit well. Part of the nature of a one and done event is that the best team will not always win, but with a larger sample size everything points to Non-AQ teams in BCS bowls looking more like the game they want to forget. Namely Hawaii v UGA.
Also your last sentence has one major problem. Namely there is nothing stopping 5* recruits from playing well together.
by osceolafan850 on May 20, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Other than arrogance and a feeling that they have nothing left to prove
…there is nothing stopping 5* recruits from playing well together.
"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?'" - Jeremy Bentham
by Please Spay and Neuter Your Pets on May 21, 2010 3:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Like at Bama or UF?
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Here's the interesting thing to me
People complain that Boise is willing to play anyone when that is just not the case. They want a home and home OR want to be paid almost $1 Million dollars for coming to play in your house. Imho they have not earned the right to home and homes and they want to be paid like they are FIU. I would NOT like for FSU to do either of those things. If we are paying $1Mil for an opponent it better be Troy, UAB, or the like.
http://espn.go.com/blog/sec/post/_/id/10812/good-move-for-ole-miss
The interesting thing about the Ole Miss matchup is that there’s not a return trip for the Rebels out to Boise. Instead, the Broncos will pocket $900,000 for coming to Oxford. It will be the most Ole Miss has ever paid a nonconference opponent to come play at Vaught-Hemingway Stadium.
Team Gold!
North Texas gets about $1 Mil per road game.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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Exactly!
Why not pony up a nother 100k for a more guaranteed win.
BSU is basically saying they are comparable to N TX by asking for that much money, I would take them at their word and rank them accordingly
Team Gold!
Exactly
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by Bud Elliott on May 15, 2010 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I can understand his line of thinking.....
kinda. It doesn’t answer the logic of a team beating 118 others but losing 3 if it played in the SEC, however.
Instead he defends their scheduling practices and I agree with his point there. If they played in an AQ conference then the weak schedule should have more merit. Instead they have chosen to work the system, and that is completely fine by me. In the same breath, however, they do seem to schedule at least one good to very good out of conference game a year.
I understand the logic of being ablie to beat 118 teams but losing 3 in the SEC.
It’s all about attrition. He’s saying in a one game scenario on a neutral site Boise can beat anybody but Bama but if they had to play Bama, uf, LSU, Auburn, Arky, and So Car the attrition that comes with that sched as well as having to “get up” for that many games as opposed just one will equate to 3 losses.
"I think therefore I am not a Gator"
by Jamil Dawson on May 14, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I still can't process his logic
that there is only one team in America that could beat them at a neutral site. Insane.
If Dameyune Craig and James Coley are Crockett and Tubbs, does this mean that Odell Haggins and Rick Trickett are B. A. Baracus and Hannibal?
Maybe it's semantics
But I don’t think staples would say only one team could beat bsu in a neutral site. Jst that he would personally have them as the favorite over all the other teams.
Myself, I agree with you in that I would probably favor 6-7 teams over bsu in a neutral site game.
It will be interesting to see the Vegas line on the vt/bsu game to see if Vegas agrees with the preseason rankings.
by BenDNole on May 14, 2010 3:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That line will be heavily played
I checked the odds to win the MNC this season and Boise is up there.
Bama 9/2
Oh St 5/1
uf 10/1
Boise 12/1
Neb 12/1
USC 12/1
VT 15/1
TX 15/1
TCU 15/1
UM 20/1
FSU 75/1
"I think therefore I am not a Gator"
by Jamil Dawson on May 14, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
They should be higher then that.
They only play 2 games this year and no one will hold them accountable for that.
If Dameyune Craig and James Coley are Crockett and Tubbs, does this mean that Odell Haggins and Rick Trickett are B. A. Baracus and Hannibal?
and that is why he WRITES ...
and doesn’t make the lines for Caesar’s/Hilton or MGM/Mirage
by Cigar City Nole on May 14, 2010 9:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
WOW! This is worth highlighting once again, because this type of confidence in Fisher from the Administration is what is going to speed up our process>results.
The most surprising thing was how quickly he’s been able to put his plans into action. Usually, new coaches have to fight for stuff like new strength coaches [Fisher just hired the 9th full-time strength coach] and a nutritionist. The administration gave Fisher a lot of what he asked for, and that’s a good sign. He’s going to have to raise some dough to get his dorm and indoor facility, but the more immediate changes were more critical anyway. New coaches always have a vision for what they want, but oftentimes that vision collides with financial and administrative realities. It seems, in this case, that everyone is on board.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
"I want you guys to line up alphabetically by height," and, "I want you guys to pair up in groups of three and then line up in a circle." Coach Bill Peterson
As far as his Boise State comments go, I am not too concerned with his too favorable ranking.
If other teams have the same or better record, BSU will take a back seat in any MNC. Of course I disagree and hate seeing a team from “weak” conference with such a unjustified ranking, but his #2 ranking is only one man’s opinion and I don’t think BSU will wind up in most top 5 pre-season polls once they are released.
As another member posted above, and as I have said here on numerous occasions, the first poll should not be released until mid October due to favoritisms, biases, and ignorance of the pollsters. Some games need to played before anyone is ranked. However, this will never happen since the media controls the polls and the media will not give up their power willingly.
Lastly, hypocritical is a bad choice of word to use here, but I find it funny some people are viewing teams like BSU in the same light the arrogant and opinionated SEC homers feel about the ACC and other “lesser” conferences.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
"I want you guys to line up alphabetically by height," and, "I want you guys to pair up in groups of three and then line up in a circle." Coach Bill Peterson
I disagree about BSU out of the preseason top 5.
At least in the AP. I think too many people are touting them, and ranking them that high will be the trendy thing to do.
by Mr. Tito Carlos on May 14, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough. We will know in about 3 months.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
"I want you guys to line up alphabetically by height," and, "I want you guys to pair up in groups of three and then line up in a circle." Coach Bill Peterson
how many games
does BSU lose playing an ACC schedule?
That is very hard to answer and it would depend on the schedule of teams in the ACC they play.
I know others will disagree, but if they played these ACC teams this upcoming season, I personally don’t think they could beat
FSU
VT
Miami
GT
Climpson
BC-even
UNC-even.
Now after a couple of years and money in the ACC (or SEC as Andy pointed out) the playing field would be more level if they were able to hang on to their coach or replace him with another quality coach.
Again, others will disagree, but I don’t think if they were put in any of the BCS conferences immediately, they would not even contend for the conference championship, much less the MNC.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
"I want you guys to line up alphabetically by height," and, "I want you guys to pair up in groups of three and then line up in a circle." Coach Bill Peterson
If they played
FSU
VT
Miami
GT
Climpson
BC
UNC
I’d say 4-3 or 3-4
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by Bud Elliott on May 15, 2010 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
What % would you assign to each of those 7 games?
but to be fair, I don’t think anyone plays those 7 teams in the ACC this year (someone please correct me if I’m wrong).
re: the %, want to see what it would add up to (do it twice, once with 4 home games and once with 3 home games, or even 3 times with all 7 being neutral).
Just at random I’ll say:
Home: FSU, VT, Miami and BC
Road, GT, Clemson and UNC
FSU: 70%
VT: 55%
Miami: 70%
BC: 70%
GT: 35%
Clemson: 40%
UNC: 40%
Gets me: 3.8 wins, so let’s say 4 wins.
If I reversed it exactly (i.e. switch home and away) I’d get:
FSU: 40%
VT: 30%%
Miami: 40%
BC: 40%
GT: 70%
Clemson: 70%
UNC: 70%
That gets me: 3.6 wins, so still 4.
All neutral:
FSU: 55%
VT: 45%
Miami: 55%
BC: 55%
GT: 50%
Clemson: 55%
UNC: 55%
I get 3.7 wins, so still 4.
So 4-3 or 3-4 seems rights.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher
Just keep on doubting us...
… and we’ll keep on winning. :-)
On a different topic, this is a nice blog. It’s relatively balanced and no one yells at each other. Keep up the good writing and good luck this season. Maybe we’ll meet after all. You never know.
"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?'" - Jeremy Bentham
by Please Spay and Neuter Your Pets on May 20, 2010 5:13 AM EDT up reply actions
That might happen actually
I wish FSU would leave the ACC and play a boise-like schedule. You guys make me jealous!
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Our "weak schedule" is one of the reasons I put up the poll
I wanted to see how your fans would think we’d do against what you term a “real schedule”.
Since literally hundreds more vote on a topic than post on it, the poll would be a much more accurate reflection of your fans’ beliefs.
Come on… aren’t you curious as well?
The comparisons between the similar rise of Boise State and Florida State are at the National Level and aren’t going away anytime soon. We might as well have some fun with it, huh?
"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?'" - Jeremy Bentham
by Please Spay and Neuter Your Pets on May 21, 2010 4:19 AM EDT up reply actions
You're so jealous!
You just want that alternating 13th game for playing Hawaii. I knew it!
"Everyone counted us out. I don't know why they keep doing that." -- Kyle Wilson
confused
When SI contacted Tomahawk Nation about doing an interview on Jimbo Fisher and college football, we jumped at the opportunity.
SI contacted you and asked you to interview their writer?
Yep
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I've done work with Andy before.
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Alright, so by now everyone should have this much figured out:
A) There is not a planet in our galaxy or in any other on which Andy Staples’ answer to Bud’s fourth question makes any sense. And Andy obviously thinks he knows what he’s talking about here. Praise Mr. Staples all you want for his knowledge, gang. But it would not be an overstatement to say that the publishing of the opinions and philosophy he expressed in that answer should disqualify him from voting in any poll that influences BCS voting.
2) If you won’t take it from me, then take it from Andy that the post-Lost Decade FSU will have to go undefeated to make it to the national championship game in the ACC. And Andy makes that statement based on this year’s schedule. If Mr. Staples were to look you in the face and say that he judged resume and not record, not only would you be justified in laughing hysterically, but it would be perfectly appropriate to then ask for his autograph and say, “Oh shoot, I thought you were Rick Reilly.”
D) In short, this interview should tell you everything you need to know about sports media, the current system, the state of FSU’s rep, and the state of the ACC.
by TRMNole on May 14, 2010 9:35 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Good post, rep.
CP7: Sliding is teh weak sauce
by stevegrizzle on May 15, 2010 6:43 AM EDT up reply actions
A little harsh, but I am going to turn your comment green anyway. REC
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
"I want you guys to line up alphabetically by height," and, "I want you guys to pair up in groups of three and then line up in a circle." Coach Bill Peterson
Uh oh. If FRANK thinks I was harsh, then I really did a number on this guy.
Not my intent, but then I doubt Andy Staples cares what some guy on the internet thinks about his insane plan to one day award an undefeated high school team a Div. 1-A college national championship because “just imagine if they could recruit the same kids that colleges do!”
by TRMNole on May 15, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would like to add my thoughts:
- In order for Boise to get in the “National Championship” game (we’ll call it that), we need to schedule 4 tough OOC opponents every year.
- Boise wants to play in a weak conference every year (I can’t believe I read that from someone. Please don’t assume you know anything about this). We would rather go 5-4 in the PAC-10 or 4-4 in the SEC any year that play in the WAC. It still may get us a BCS game.
- My favorite: Boise isn’t trying to upgrade their academics. Can you honestly tell me a school in this country that is not trying to do this?
- We need to not ask for so much money from AQ schools. With our limited facilities, we would never need this type of money. After all, an AQ conference team going 0-12 still gets a better payout than that of an undefeated Boise in a BCS bowl game.
- We need to not ask for home and home arrangements with bigger schools. Obviously, we don’t want to drive ticket sales.
- The BCS National Championship game is for AQ teams only. It doesn’t matter if you’re classified in div I-A, if you’re not in a BCS AQ conference, that’s just too bad. I’d like to know if you’d rather prefer the BCS just succeed from the NCAA in this regard.
These are a few things I’m reading from some of you.
I don’t want to be an angry Boise State fan here picking any invalid argument I hear. I do feel that Boise State has to earn it’s way into a high ranking and also a potential national championship game. Florida State has earned it through many decades of dominance, while Boise State has only had one. But then I’m also hearing that we’re only judging this years team only, and not what the Boise State program has done. Which one should it be? Will the planets ever align for a team such as Utah or Boise State to be deserving of these rankings? If this were the case, and all previous years records were wiped clean, you will never see a non-AQ team play in a title game with an undefeated record… ever. Again, is this how you would prefer it?
In the end, this is a basic reason why I hate pre-season polls. They have too much subjectivity. No one poll method is correct. I think the BCS formula has a lot of good things going for it (yes, I’m a Boise State fan admitting that). For instance, SOS. SOS kills Boise every year (even last year as we watched TCU do nothing to warrant a leap over us as we played an 8th ranked WAC conference), as it should. I think the computers should be left to determine the SOS, because any human reasoning of SOS can be vitally flawed. The BCS rankings determine position by all these elements and weighs the averages. Andy Staples and every other media doesn’t have this luxury.
Anyway. A few random thoughts I had. Many of you have some excellent points I’m reading, but I’m also seeing a bit of double-talk from a few (specific) other commenter’s.
PS. Excellent beatdown of BYU last year. I’m LDS and my mother thinks BYU is God’s football team. I hate that type of arrogance and it’s fun to see her get mad. :D
"Everyone counted us out. I don't know why they keep doing that." -- Kyle Wilson
by Loque on May 17, 2010 2:18 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Welcome! I'll get to this in the AM
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Is it AM yet?
Unfortunately, I’m not sure you need to reply. I’ve seen your responses to Mikrino and all I see is “Boise need to do everything I expect, and nothing they are doing. Everything more, nothing less.”
Mr. Bud. I feel you need to start analyzing your perspective methods. It’s completely one-sided as long as it is your side. This bring me to the overall question I have. If Boise State will never succeed without meeting your guidelines, why are they playing Div 1-A ball in the first place. Is it your expectation that only the Big-6 BCS conferences ever belong playing in a national championship game? If not, I would like to see some subjectiveness on what Boise State has earned the past several seasons. If so, then I will understand your point of view and never argue versus a brick wall again.
"Everyone counted us out. I don't know why they keep doing that." -- Kyle Wilson
Mikrino asked the question better, I answered him
Boise’s schedule is a joke. They are gaming the system, and that’s fine as long as Bronco fans don’t try to claim they are earning their spot in BCS games.
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If Boise State will never succeed without meeting your guidelines, why are they playing Div 1-A ball in the first place. Is it your expectation that only the Big-6 BCS conferences ever belong playing in a national championship game?
FSU was not in the big 6 for a long time. The ’Noles EARNED their way into the discussion by going on the road (without return games or big guaranteed paydays). Boise is trying to whine their way into the game. Play 4 or 5 teams from major conferences that are consistently in bowl games. Win all those. Then talk to me.
It has nothing to do with conference and everything to do with resume.
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I think the comparison is flawed.
I give Florida State all the respect they’ve earned and deserve (why did you lose to the U, you jerks!)
But that was a different day and age. We have the BCS now and football play and politics is very different from those of yesteryear.
"Everyone counted us out. I don't know why they keep doing that." -- Kyle Wilson
Whoops.
Ended it prematurely.
Your football program could survive on a lot less in the 70’s/80s. This is the decade where your whole collegiate athletic program lives and dies on the football program. I think the point of having a non-BCS team successfully schedule 4-5 ranked teams every year for a possibility of a championship run is unrealistic. Essentially you’re saying you would like the BCS to be a conference club. No one outside the Big-6/ND club will ever get the chance that all of your league should.
Besides. In the end, if you see Boise schedule Va Tech, Oregon St, Nebraska, & Texas Tech (a semi-realistic schedule) in one year — and survives it, we all can see the new writing on the wall: “Boise got through those 4 games, but now they have an 8-game restful cakewalk into the post-season.”
"Everyone counted us out. I don't know why they keep doing that." -- Kyle Wilson
If you're not willing to earn your way into the national championship, don't ask to play in it.
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So ten years of beating 85% of the teams you face isn't earning it?
Who decides what “earning it” is? You.
Boise State has been a DI-A school for 13-14 seasons. Regardless of your subjectivity, they are earning it. I wouldn’t consider it done and finished, and now they’re entitled like FSU is. When that happens you get lazy, and then you get investigated, and then… well you know.
I hope Boise State is always “earning it”.
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
You don't play a real schedule.
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by Bud Elliott on May 18, 2010 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
That is the fundamental difference in opinion
If Boise played 9 high school teams, but beat 2 top 25 teams every year, Mik would think thats enough, and those of us who are aware of the beating a team takes when it plays a much more dificult schedule. We arent saying we play a top 10 team every week, but the worst of what we play would be the 2nd hardest and so on.
Preparing for one or two games a year is much easier than preparing for 7-8. If he doesnt get that, there is no getting through. He goes back to elitism, what the hell are we supposed to say to that.
Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole
Preparing for one or two games a year is much easier than preparing for 7-8. If he doesnt get that, there is no getting through. He goes back to elitism, what the hell are we supposed to say to that.
I understand that completely. I get that you see Boise State having a 2 game schedule. They don’t, but I get your opinion. They have two tough opponents, two mediocre, but feisty opponents, and 7-8 relative doormats. But anyone of the twelve teams they face has the opportunity to beat them. Just like every other team in the country. It just so happens that the majority of their opponents lack in skill, depth, talent, and coaching. That isn’t Boise State’s problem. They go out play the teams on their schedule. More often than not they go undefeated because of the lack of competition. That doesn’t make them less of a power, that makes them untested. Then they go to a bowl game where hopefully a team will face them, and test them. Sometime they do, sometimes they don’t, as with any team.
But blindly saying that they don’t play a real schedule is elitist, whether you believe it to be so or not. Presumably you believe your team’s schedule to be “real”. Although I can point 4,5, or 6 games I would see as gimmes. Sure FSU might have the opportunity to play more ranked opponents in a single season. Geography alone makes that possible. It’s all relative. You put Boise State in the ACC with the same Athletic Dept. and Coaching Staff with all the resources, recruiting, and facilities the being in the ACC affords you , and I think you’d be surprised at what they might do. As it stands right now they don’t have to play ranked team after ranked team because the sheer size of their win column is enough in most voters opinion. That plus the fact that they show up in big games seals the deal.
You don’t have to agree with it. But you probably ought to get used to it.
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
Boise plays 7 games against the worst 30 teams in the country.
It’s not elitist. It is fact! Your schedule is one of the 10 worst in the country. FSU’s is one of the 10 best.
It doesn’t matter what you could be with better resources. You don’t have those resources. This liberal BS is insane! You have not earned it. I don’t care why you haven’t earned it. You don’t have the resume to play for it.
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It doesn’t matter what you could be with better resources. You don’t have those resources … You have not earned it. I don’t care why you haven’t earned it. You don’t have the resume to play for it.
Bud, Sir. You just proved Mikrino’s point. This very statement is elitist. Let’s ask our friend, the dictionary
e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (ĭ-lē’tĭz’əm, ā-lē’-)
n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2. a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.
Your better facilities, better “resume” (in-conference opponents), better annual automatic BCS funds is not what qualifies you for a good ranking. It’s how you’ve proven yourself with what opponents and facilities you do have. What your saying is only the Kennedy’s will be good politicians or that only Donald Trump can be a multi-billionaire. What happened to the great American dream of allowing someone, and in this case, a football program, of working themselves up from humble beginnings to accomplish something great? Even the BCS allows Boise State in. Is it fair to say Abraham Lincoln wouldn’t become President just because he grew up in a log cabin (the WAC)?
"Everyone counted us out. I don't know why they keep doing that." -- Kyle Wilson
Wrong. In college football, the standard is not subjective. It's not "how did you do relative to resources"
It is only “how did you do”.
In this case, “working yourself up” would be scheduling enough quality opponents make up for the trash that is the WAC.
Lincoln didn’t get the presidency because he achieved a lot relative to his upbringing. He simply achieved more, regardless of upbringing.
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by Bud Elliott on May 18, 2010 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. How did Boise do? How much have they achieved, regardless of their income/facilities? More would be an understatement.
"Everyone counted us out. I don't know why they keep doing that." -- Kyle Wilson
Not much.
Boise too many games against bottom 25 teams.
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Omigawd!
What makes it a fake schedule?
You mean they play in a “weak” conference don’t you?
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
boise state is gaming the system?
this is too funny.
if, by gaming the system, you mean they have a better eye for talent, a superior work ethic, better coaching, and a lack of respect for aq posers… well… i guess you could be on to something.
ironic, isnt it. since the system was designed to prevent exactly that.
seriously… you guys must be stunned that nobody has been able to buy Petersen (all e’s, no o) off by now. its like… the system is broken or something.
maybe… just maybe… your system sucks. see y’all in phoenix. ill be the guy laughing so hard he cant breathe.
Huh?
They absolutely are gaming the system. They play 2 or 3 real games per year. I think they’re doing a great job of it, and I think they have a great shot to be in the title game if they’re undefeated this season because the national media is stupid. Resume > Record.
>>---l>
I don't know about gaming the system.
But they definitely take full advantage of all their resources. The rules are there to allow a NAQ team into a BCS bowl, including the Title game, provided they’re ranked 1 or 2 by season’s end. So going undefeated in a weak conference isn’t necessarily gaming the system, especially when no other “stronger” conferences are offering invitations to Boise State. Because a handful of guys on one Florida State blog say they haven’t earned it, doesn’t change the entire landscape of college football. Obviously Andy Staples, an excellent source, by your own admission, disagrees with you.
The National Media angle is relatively new. Only after Boise State beat TCU, who was also largely considered a National Title contender, and people started to realize that the Broncos had 21 of 22 Fiesta Bowl starters returning, led by a Heisman hopeful, did the National Media start to speculate the what-ifs surrounding Boise State. I’m guessing the disgust I see from fans of BCS teams is of more of a covetous nature from the lack of spotlight in the general direction of their perspective team. The media aka ESPN, gets behind a story like this because it appeals to the masses. It makes for good TV entertainment, whether your reaction is lover or outright vitriol, you respond, and pay attention to it. All the while pining for Boise State to lose horribly in a little less than four months. I guess tWWL has your attention.
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
By gaming the system I mean they're doing a tremendous job
Of selling their record over their resume and claiming a place in the championship picture. I personally don’t see any reason for Boise to change what they’re doing. The national media is extremely unintelligent, and they love the Boise story. They believe that because the Broncos can go undefeated against 8 nobodies and 3 legitimate teams that they are among the top 3 or 4 teams in the nation. That’s ludicrous, IMO. But, if you’re Boise, why change what’s working?
>>---l>
Now I read that you agree.
Looks like we’re headed for the MWC next year. Question for ACC-ers, does that help our resume (if Utah, TCU, BYU stays)? It’s been said that the top of the MWC is better than the Big East, but definitely not top-to-bottom.
"Everyone counted us out. I don't know why they keep doing that." -- Kyle Wilson
They believe that because the Broncos can go undefeated against 8 nobodies and 3 legitimate teams that they are among the top 3 or 4 teams in the nation. That’s ludicrous, IMO.
Apparently Coaches, AP Voters, Jeff Sagarin, and BCS Computers all room together in the same apartment. Because they all seem to agree that going undefeated in D-IA football is pretty damn impressive no matter who you play. Let’s see… 2 out of 120 is.. the top 98th percentile of your class?
Their resume IS their record. You don’t go into an interview and handout a resume that just says who you worked for. If you do, you’re probably still unemployed. You hand them a resume that shows what you’ve accomplished when you were there. How you performed. What you bring to the table.
Listen I could have cleaned toilets at my last job. And put Buttcrack Janitorial on my resume. And then put that was personally responsible for increasing profits by 30%, and held a 95% job accuracy rating, and nobody on Earth will care about the name of the company after that, because the performance stands out. It’s the same reason Chris Petersen’s name is routinely mentioned in National coaching searches. They don’t look at the fact that he coaches in the WAC. If they do, they’ve soon forgotten it while looking at his 49-4 record he’s compiled while being there. It’s the way he runs his program that holds interest, not who he runs it against.
But hey, what do I know? Just don’t submit your resume to me anytime soon.
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
Who is saying Petersen isn't a good coach?
Meyer was an excellent coach and it didn’t make Utah elite. What you’ve accomplished is not as impressive when you’ve played 3 real teams per year. It’s very impressive to win those BCS games, and that’s great. It gets a lot easier, though, when you don’t have to play the schedule that the major conference teams do and refuse to play a comparable one because you want too much money/return games. But, again, they’re working the system in the right way for them.
>>---l>
Judging by your response,
You either didn’t even read my post, or were so hasty to respond you didn’t bother processing what I said.
Either way it was poor performance.
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
I'm just not seeing the point of brutalizing this dead horse anymore
I find it more impressive when Alabama goes 12-2 than when Boise goes 14-0. You’re entitled to your opinion.
>>---l>
Know what?
I am totally fine with saying Boise State is gaming the system. Anybody in a BCS conference should know that the BCS is not about gamesmanship and competition, it’s about money. It’s a business, and while Boise may not be the most funded, they have really sharp business strategists (read: Gene Bleymaier)
In 2005 or ‘06, Karl Benson was interviewed about the two different models of getting into the BCS: Fresno St. and Boise St. Boise States uses the method of scheduling top-middle BCS conference teams, hoping that have a good year when they play them, and getting into the BCS. It worked for us in ’06 and ’09, but not in ’08, even though we were qualifed. Fresno State uses the “Anyone. Anywhere.” model (with two periods). Which one is winning? …I think we’ve been over this.
The BCS is playing Calvin Ball. Changing BCS bowl qualification rules in ‘05 and tweaking the system every now and then. It takes a brilliant program to stay on top of it all and succeed playing their game. When conference expansion happens and Boise State if left behind again, we’ll play their game some more. You may not like how Boise State does it, but you should respect it.
"Everyone counted us out. I don't know why they keep doing that." -- Kyle Wilson
I agree with that
I wasn’t disrespecting Boise when I made that statement. Do I think they’re one of the best 2 or 3 teams in the country? Not a chance. But I think they’re going about what they’re doing in the most sensible business fashion.
>>---l>
I think Boise's plan is genius
but get aggravated when Bronco fans think their resume is deserving. You beat the system. Grin and whistle. Don’t go brag on a bottomless platform.
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by Bud Elliott on May 18, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, it probably sounds very much like I’m here to beat my chest and say “Boise rules it all!” But, for the most part, I’m not. In each moment I’ve given FSU it’s deserved respect. I’m just more amazed that you have very little respect at all for a team that doesn’t meet your personal qualifications. I keep telling myself to give it up, but then you post something that’s completely ludicrous, even for an SEC fan. I would expect that from a normal commenter, but as co-blog leader, I would myself personally bewildered. Again, not that I should be trying to dictate how you feel and who you feel it for.
"Everyone counted us out. I don't know why they keep doing that." -- Kyle Wilson
Respect
I very much respect what Boise has done relative to its resources. To pull off those huge upsets is amazing. I actually like their D more than their O if you want to talk X&O, and Tennessee was brilliant in hiring Boise’s DC IMO. And that’s saying something because their O was quite creative.
But Boise does not deserve to play in a BCS game because its resume features 7 or 8 games against bottom 25 competition. Boise is a 9-3 or 8-4 team in a major conference. There really isn’t any disputing that (I’d hope). In a typical year, that doesn’t get a team to the BCS.
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we don't use AQ here. We use BCS.
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by Bud Elliott on May 18, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
AQ and NAQ are primarily in the BCS rules, which is why we use them.
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
Just seems PC
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I hate the BCS PC agenda. I will also never use FBS/FCS.
"Everyone counted us out. I don't know why they keep doing that." -- Kyle Wilson
All this crap from BSU fans has turned me into an "ACC guy"
in the sense that I am going to be rooting extremely hard for VT for one game this year. I hope they smack that sense of self right out of their conscience.
You guys can call us elite all you like. The fact of the matter is that if FSU played your schedule, we would prob be undefeated too. Hell, Maryland would probably go undefeated on that schedule.
You compare your path with that of FSU. Sorry Charlie, that it is definitely an inappropriate comparison. The bottom line is that we went to other peoples houses and tore em up. We created the sod cemetery to highlight how much ass we kicked on the road. We didnt demand a million dollars to play us, we didnt demand home games in return. It must be nice to make ridiculous demands that teams wont meet, and then claim woe is me, noone will schedule us.
Props to you for working the system, just dont complain and cry, arguing you are in the same league as teams that only schedule one or two jv games a season.
Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole
You should have been an "ACC guy" all along...
I’ve tried to make this point numerous times, and won’t rehash it. Simply put, the more the ACC accomplishes OOC, the better it is for us. Especially if we run roughshod through the ACC.
Do you think that two consecutive basketball championships increased the value of our new media package?
I’m the biggest ACC guy around…I just want them all to lose to us. And nobody else.
Go easy on me, Miami. Remember, I like you.
Please don't take this the wrong way...
Do you guys feel a little jealous for the “easy” path Boise has taken, received? I doubt you mean it to, but I’m coming off with that feeling. We might not do it the Florida State way, but we’ll also never have the tradition and glory years Florida State lived in, too. As much as I respect the BCS idea, I still think it’s a fundamentally flawed system; and I feel that BCS teams should have this exact same feeling as non-BCS teams do as well (us a little bit more because of the difference in revenue distribution and weight of representative votes).
We’re nervous for our VT game. But I’ll say it now so you can be frustrated with it later .. if Va Tech loses to us and wins the ACC, we’re going to claim we won the ACC, too. Flawed logic, yes. But this is college football, who said anything about logic?
"Everyone counted us out. I don't know why they keep doing that." -- Kyle Wilson
Yes
Do you guys feel a little jealous for the "easy" path Boise has taken, received?
Because FSU earned it against murderous schedules w/o big guarantees or return games.
Coaches don’t have time to watch the games of other teams, and they definitely don’t have time to consider silly questions like “their record is X-X, but against whom did they compile that record?” No, the coaches poll, the poll that factors in the BCS, seems to be concerned only with record, no matter how compiled.
Clearly, those who schedule a difficult slate of teams are not rewarded. They don’t seem to get how difficult it is for a team to play a grueling schedule and be up and ready each week. Every team will come out flat a few times per season. Elite teams will win games against average opponents when they come out flat, but good teams often will not. Good teams will lose to an average team if they come out flat. This is particularly true when the average team is very motivated to play the game, which to the good team is just another game on their slate, but to the average team, is their game of the year. Simply reducing the chances a team has to lose, through scheduling, makes a ton of sense.
Florida State’s asinine scheduling also puts unnecessary pressure and and a negative spotlight on the program. Because few (if any) teams face the week-in and week-out grind that FSU faces. We can’t reasonably expect people to sympathize with something they don’t see or understand. Every team experiences letdowns, they are impossible to avoid. What a team can avoid is scheduling opponents who can take advantage of the scheduling team’s down week, like a talented but inconsistent USF program that sold their entire season on the Florida State game. FSU just couldn’t match their intensity, or the intensity the Noles showed the previous week against #7 ranked BYU. Smart scheduling also means avoiding scheduling teams who require the scheduling team to unnecessarily get up for a game, like playing that cross country road game against BYU. Instead of BYU and Oklahoma, why not Florida International and Rice? Then Florida State would be sitting at 3-1, with just a lass second loss to nationally ranked Miami. I don’t like the process any more than you, but Florida State scheduling tactics are largely to blame for their current predicament. Florida State needs to stop being other team’s game of the year, particularly those teams which are just talented enough to beat FSU if the Noles have an off-week.
Think that weak scheduling wouldn’t get FSU to the National Championship game? Think again. With UF and thee nobodies, FSU would have to beat 8 or 9 bowl teams, including Miami and Florida, and play the ACC championship game against either Virginia Tech, Miami, North Carolina, or maybe Georgia Tech. 12-0 (or 11-1 in some years) would guarantee Florida State a shot at the National Championship. The game against Florida erases any concerns voters might have over the quality of the ACC.
As much as I respect the BCS idea, I still think it’s a fundamentally flawed system; and I feel that BCS teams should have this exact same feeling as non-BCS teams do as well (us a little bit more because of the difference in revenue distribution and weight of representative votes).
Agreed. Some Big10 teams skate like Boise does. Look at the total resume (not record), regardless of conference.
We’re nervous for our VT game. But I’ll say it now so you can be frustrated with it later .. if Va Tech loses to us and wins the ACC, we’re going to claim we won the ACC, too. Flawed logic, yes. But this is college football, who said anything about logic?
Think scheduling doesn’t matter? Virginia Tech is the overwhelming favorite to win the Coastal division even though they have the 2nd or 3rd best offense in the division and the 3rd or 4th best defense! Check this out from Heather Dinich:
[UNC is far and away the top ACC defense] I would say Clemson, Miami and Boston College have the most pieces in place to push for second, but aside from North Carolina, which returns a league-high nine starters on defense, Georgia Tech and Miami return the most starters on defense with eight each. Boston College, Clemson, Miami and Georgia Tech — in that order — led the ACC in scoring defense last year behind Virginia Tech and UNC.
VTech doesn’t project to have a better offense than GTech or Miami, and Dinich (and most who study these teams and don’t rely on reputation or school name) feels that the Hokie defense is at best 3rd. But VTech is odds-on to win the division. Why? Schedule, of course. VTech doesn’t have to face FSU or Clemson, the likely top teams from the other division. Miami and UNC face both while GTech dodges FSU but must travel to Clemson.
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I never put much weight on Dinich.
…she does that on her own. /rimshot
"Everyone counted us out. I don't know why they keep doing that." -- Kyle Wilson
Lol well played
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Some interesting ideas in here
I think we all can agree that Boise State has a softer schedule than a lot of other teams. Their conference doesn’t hold up except when compared to the MAC or the Sunbelt or the Big East.
There have been some that have indicated that BSU should not get to play in the NC game unless they move to a new conference. We know that BSU can’t just walk into the PAC 10 or BIG 12 or the Mountain West and demand a spot in the rotation. Anyone who thinks differently needs to turn off their computer now and go back to bed.
Here is an item to ponder from last season: Let’s say that BSU has the regional location to play in the SEC and replaces Florida. I know, it is a stretch, but pretend Florida no longer exists. Who wins the SEC? For those of us who followed the SEC and Boise State last year, we know that BSU would have played Alabama in the Conference Championship. Florida’s schedule avoided any challenging teams from the other division and they were clearly the best team from their own division. Boise State, again presuming that the entire program and stadium and fans somehow translocated to that region and didn’t have travel concerns, would have cleaned up on Florida’s schedule and would have given Alabama a better run for their money than Texas. Assuming that the results were the same and Alabama won and moved on to the NC game, Boise State would have destroyed Cinci as did Florida did in their BCS bowl.
As for voting and preseason rankings, I hate those preseason polls and agree that the polls should wait until half way through the season when we all have a better feel for what is going on. The final poll last season had Florida 3 and Boise State 4, separated by one mental case voter, Craig James, who’s sole #8 vote for BSU took BSU out of a tie for 3rd. Some folks will agree with James, and some will feel that he should have his voting privilages stripped for being so far out of touch with the rest of the voting community. One thing we do know, voting for a champion is the wrong way of doing things. Especially when we all know that championships would be better decided by what happens on the field instead. Imagine being a Boise State fan last year, after watching your team stomp on confernce creampuff over the weekend, seeing the polls having a team with a loss and on a bye week pass the Broncos in the polls. (cough USC cough) The system is broken, but it is the one we have.
Boise would have gone 8-4 at best against UF's schedule
Probably 7-5 or 6-6. Arkansas would be a 3 TD favorite over Utah State. It just isn’t comparable. Having to prepare for each game week in and week out rather than resting starters while blowing out cream puffs makes a world of difference. Boise would have played ’Bama tougher than Texas? What?
>>---l>
Boise would have gone 8-4 at best against UF’s schedule Probably 7-5 or 6-6
There’s no way to know that. I think that’s what he’s trying to say.
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
We can make reasonable predictions
Fill out the probability that Boise would win each of the games on UF’s schedule using betting lines in the form of percentages and add the decimals. Proportional win shares.
>>---l>
Example
Charleston Southern 95%
Troy 90%
Tennessee 45%
at Kentucky 60%
at LSU 40%
Arkansas 55%
at Miss State 65%
Georgia 50%
Vandy 70%
at South Carolina 55%
FIU 95%
Florida State 55%
= 7.75
A rough estimate off the top of my head
>>---l>
It's all still relative.
The first four games on that list I’d have at 100%. And definitely FIU, Vandy, MissSt around 95%, with Arkansas around 80%.
In fact, looking at that schedule, only LSU, UGA, & South Carolina would be favorites in my book. But I follow Boise State. Like I said, it’s all relative.
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
You two...
I find it quite funny you’re both talking about SEC schools and saying it’s all relative. How much inbreeding do they have down there?
"Everyone counted us out. I don't know why they keep doing that." -- Kyle Wilson
Not sure what you are saying here regarding Arkansas and Utah State. It doesn’t change that Boise State would have floated thru Florida’s 2009 schedule unbeaten until the matchup with Alabama just as Florida did. Tennessee was barely bowl eligible, Georgia was 4-4 in confernce sub-par, Kentucky, S carolina and Vandy don’t hold a candle. Florida didn’t meet alabama in conference play, LSU was sub par and struggled to beat LaTech (a WAC creampuff). Mississippi State isn’t worth mentioning and Arkansas was all over the map inconsistant. Let’s say Boise State loses one game on that schedule and chalk it up to Boise State having a bad day and the other team got lucky. This still puts them against Alabama for the SEC Championship (even losing 3 games they would still get Alabama last year) A loss in conference and a loss to Alabama still puts them solidly in the BCS to mop up against the no defense team from Cincinatti.
by Joe Vigilant on May 20, 2010 3:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Ridiculous line of thinking
Calculate it through proportional win shares, and try to do so objectively.
>>---l>
I think we all can agree that Boise State has a softer schedule than a lot of other teams. Their conference doesn’t hold up except when compared to the MAC or the Sunbelt or the Big East.
The BE schedule >>> WAC’s schedule. Not close.
Here is an item to ponder from last season: Let’s say that BSU has the regional location to play in the SEC and replaces Florida. I know, it is a stretch, but pretend Florida no longer exists. Who wins the SEC? For those of us who followed the SEC and Boise State last year, we know that BSU would have played Alabama in the Conference Championship. Florida’s schedule avoided any challenging teams from the other division and they were clearly the best team from their own division. Boise State, again presuming that the entire program and stadium and fans somehow translocated to that region and didn’t have travel concerns, would have cleaned up on Florida’s schedule and would have given Alabama a better run for their money than Texas. Assuming that the results were the same and Alabama won and moved on to the NC game, Boise State would have destroyed Cinci as did Florida did in their BCS bowl.
Is this serious? 2009 Boise wouldn’t be favored over UGA, Tennessee, @ LSU, etc.
As for voting and preseason rankings, I hate those preseason polls and agree that the polls should wait until half way through the season when we all have a better feel for what is going on. The final poll last season had Florida 3 and Boise State 4, separated by one mental case voter, Craig James, who’s sole #8 vote for BSU took BSU out of a tie for 3rd. Some folks will agree with James, and some will feel that he should have his voting privilages stripped for being so far out of touch with the rest of the voting community. One thing we do know, voting for a champion is the wrong way of doing things. Especially when we all know that championships would be better decided by what happens on the field instead. Imagine being a Boise State fan last year, after watching your team stomp on confernce creampuff over the weekend, seeing the polls having a team with a loss and on a bye week pass the Broncos in the polls. (cough USC cough) The system is broken, but it is the one we have.
And realizing that you should drop for playing creampuff after creampuff.
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by Bud Elliott on May 19, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Considering the top of the 2009 Big East is a giant step behind the top of the WAC, it isn’t that hard to wrap your head around. Boise State would have gone undefeated in the Big East too with only a few 2nd half wondering moments if the game might be a close win instead of a blowout.
As for playing Florida’s schedule from 2009, Boise State might not have been favored going into the season, but look at where these other SEC teams ended up. UGA, Tennessee and LSU were not the teams that they were 5 years ago, and neither was BSU. They were on opposite trajectories. Let’s go with UGA is a shadow of who they recently were, Tennessee was a mess and LSU wasn’t great. Boise State beats any of those ****2009 teams**** either at home or away, no questions asked.
As for the specific situation that you commented on regarding USC, if it is your belief that a team that doesn’t play and has a loss should pass an undefeated team in the polls who laid the lumber to a conference opponent in a required game, then your judgement on how polls should work does come in to question. Perhaps you were paying close attention to USC’s players sleeping on their dorm room couches that weekend and that impressed you so much toward their perceived ability to win a head to head football match up against an undefeated team that you would vote for them to be higher, where for some reason you weren’t so impressed with USC the week before when they were actually playing football. Who knows?
by Joe Vigilant on May 20, 2010 3:22 AM EDT up reply actions
It surprises me that no one has mentioned Nebraska
Boise State folks like to mention “Anytime, anyone, anywhere” but fail to mention that they got an offer from Nebraska and have not accepted it.
Boise State was trying to get a single game against a reasonable opponent for 2011 and wanted $900,000 to $1 mil to play an away game rather than staying home and scheduling a creampuff and keeping the gate. This makes sense to some of us. Go on the road, bring your ESPN contract, let ESPN sweeten the deal for whomever they play, get a bigger name on your resume and get some more national exposure. The only sacrifice here is a tougher game and the loss of home gate. Since ESPN was brokering the deal, they presented it to many schools who had the date open and sadly had no takers for a long time. I don’t recall today who it was that let it slip that 10 big name schools with the correct open dates had declined to play a home game against BSU on national TV for kickoff weekend. Nice that Ole Miss was finally able to ink the deal.
This brings us to Nebraska. Nebraska didn’t want to be presumed to be one of the 10 “cowardly” schools that was ducking BSU. Despite havng the open date, Nebraska declared their OOC challenging enough for 2011 and didn’t want to add to it. They play Washington and Wyoming and some cupcake that year. Instead they publicly offered a 2 for 1 deal with BSU starting in 2015. 2 games in Nebraska and 1 game in Boise. Not a bad offer for a mid major (or a Non-AQ, all teams are considered BCS teams according to the BCS). Except for it not fitting BSU’s scheduling needs. And that small detail about Nebraska wanting BSU to pay Nebraska $1 million dollars for the game that they would play in Boise.
Out of curiosity, who here believes BSU should have taken a 2 for 1 deal with Nebraska and paid Nebraska $1 million dollars for that privillage?
Yeah, Here it is.
Here’s Tom Osborne’s email response about not wanting to “load up” his OOC schedule, because other BIGXII teams aren’t either.
Here’s an old OBNUG poll on how we felt.
Let’s clarify though, Boise State can still make the deal with Nebraska. What they probably can’t do is afford the 1 million dollar payout, since their entire football budget is something like 4-5 million dollars (I’m speculating here). I think without the payout involved it’s a no brainer for Bleymaier and the Boise State Athletic Department.
Boise State hasn’t dodged any Big Name teams. They’ve lost to a whole bunch of them in the past. It seems like maybe Nebraska is doing a little bit of people claim the Broncos are. You know, demanding huge bunches of money and then wondering why the deal isn’t signed.
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
Here is an idea.
Find the REAL problem.
Boise St. plays a bad schedule, Duh. But equating that to them not being able to beat other teams is clearly awful logic. No one knows how they would do in the SEC, and no one knows how they would do with FSU’s schedule. They could be undefeated or have a losing record. What is the only way to know?
SOLVE IT ON THE FIELD.
Put BSU and FSU in a PLAYOFF and see what happens. Thats how it should be settled.
The REAL problem is the BCS.
Until then, NOBODY can say who belongs and who doesn’t, because there is no way to tell.
Old enough to know better, too young to care.
by BustersBFF on May 19, 2010 5:06 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd!
Finally some sensible perspective.
But wait, Boise State hasn’t “earned” the right to prove it on the field.
No elitism here. Nope. None.
Boise State - The best in all the land (The "land" being Idaho, and large parts of California, Oregon, and Nevada.) Now also including Fort Worth, TX and coming soon this fall, Washington D.C.!
Not elitism. Just resume-ism.
We bash Penn State equally hard.
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At least Penn State didn't have to vacate part of it's resume.
/ZING!
Sorry, but couldn’t pass an opportunity for an out-of-taste joke. Love ya!
"Everyone counted us out. I don't know why they keep doing that." -- Kyle Wilson
by Loque on May 21, 2010 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We celebrate those penalties. They helped to get the diaper-wearing version of Bowden out.
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While I agree.
I think the most of the real problem is pre-season polls. An Andy Staples poll, a Phil Steele poll, etc are harmless… until the pre-season hype machine begins to influence the coaches and Harris poll voters — which, in turn, affects the BCS polls even at 6 weeks deep into the season.
"Everyone counted us out. I don't know why they keep doing that." -- Kyle Wilson
Great debate
I finally got around to checking out how the interview looked on the site. You guys are lucky, because Bud does a fantastic job here. I loved reading all the comments here, and you guys are ahead of the curve, because this will be the debate of the college football season if Boise State is still undefeated after the Sept. 25 game against Oregon State.
I do have one correction, though.
I graduated from Lake Mary High. Those smug bastards at Lake Brantley (please don’t kill me, Daryl Bush) went 4-0 against me in high school. I can’t let them claim me now that I’ve made something of myself.
Thanks for reading my stuff, and hopefully I’ll see some of you guys around Tally.
by Andy Staples on May 28, 2010 10:03 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Oops!
Will make that change. Thanks for taking the time to help us out, Andy.
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by Bud Elliott on May 28, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
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