Dawgsports' Response To TomahawkNation's LeMay/ Richt Article
T. Kyle King is an excellent writer and played a big part in pairing me with TomahawkNation in the Summer of 2008. I consider him a friend in the business and I'll forgive him for somewhat taking the easy route and going after FSU instead of focusing on my article, although I do think he makes some good points.
Unfortunately, the facts he follows to his preferred conclusions largely are speculative, misconstrued, or false. They are indeed quite speculative, but it's difficult to say that speculation of something that may happen in the future is "False".
Why on earth would fans of a program recently taken over by Jimbo Fisher, after believing for years that Mark Richt was Bobby Bowden’s heir apparent, be so insistent that a former Nick Saban disciple would be better prepared to become a head coach after previously serving only as a coordinator than Mark Richt would be? Football hath no fury like a fan base scorned. This would be a fair point if many FSU fans had authored the article. But I (and the many educated readers of this site) cannot be grouped with that apathetic section of the fanbase who care not for keeping with the times and instead prefer ESPN Classic. As reader D.K. put it, "Honestly, I think a lot of us feel that Richt is tainted by association with Bobby Bowden in terms of structuring and running a program. It was made painfully clear to us that this approach does not work in the modern era. Now, Richt has yet to begin hiring terrible assistants and defending them to no end well maybe he has (Martinez), but the ideological similarities that exist are striking. There is a reason that the landscape of college football has seen a shift from the Mack Brown/Bobby Bowden coaching network to the Saban coaching tree.
I would be willing to take some of these criticisms from certain fan bases; if an Alabama fan or a Florida fan argued that Mark Richt lacked the killer instinct of a Nick Saban or an Urban Meyer, I would be hard pressed to argue otherwise. However, I don’t quite see where an ACC fan has any business questioning Coach Richt’s killer instinct.. The problem here, of course, is that I never compared or claimed that Florida State has (under Bowden) displayed more attention to detail or killer instinct than the Dawgs under Richt. In fact it is just the opposite. Richt's team's display the same lack of attention to detail and killer instinct that many of Bowden's teams exhibited in frustrating losses during the Dynasty Era and certainly in the "Lost Decade." Richt is a Bowden disciple and FSU fans are in a prime position to note that he displays many of Bobby's positive and negative characteristics. Further, I don't root for the ACC. I root for a team and do not hide behind my conference. If my team fails, my rooting interest has failed.
Those facts are indicative of contentment in the same sense that "Charlie’s Angels" was a show about law enforcement. T. Kyle is right. I can't simultaneously claim that UGA fans are content losing three or more games per season (as UGA has done in 4 of the last 5) and also suggest that Richt is on the hot seat. I think there are some Dawg fans who fit with the former description and some with the latter.
As to his Kirby Smart thoughts, college football teams have short memories.
As for the rest, I think D.K. sums it up pretty nicely. There's a fundamental difference of opinion here. One side is saying "Hey, our guy patterned himself after your guy!" While the other side is saying "that's not a good thing if you're playing in 2010, buddy."
I still don't think there's anything wrong with suggesting that FSU would prefer to keep Georgia's Flagship University from installing an excellent recruiter patterned after Nick Saban in FSU's Georgia backyard (which also happens to be that local's hometown).
about 2 years ago
Bud Elliott
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This is the biggest firestorm I've seen on here in a while
Can’t hurt readership.
I am amazed that even a blogger who has to try to be more detached I would think is still attacking the source of the article and not the facts within.
Team Gold
agreed
Seems to me that the fan base could be a little upset that we have moved on and they are still “stuck” with Mark. My 2 pennies, i dont care. Im looking foward to the NOLES, and inly the NOLES….
Thank God for the men and women who stand tall in the night to protect this great country we love so much
His last point comparing the record of FSU pre and post Richt being at UGA is laughable
Is he seriously getting at that Richt being at UGA is a reason FSU was down in the 00s?
I agree that him leaving our coaching staff hurt, but it wouldn’t matter if he was at UGA or Boise State as far as I’m concerned.
I’ve found that UGA fans are often pretty stubborn anyway.
I'm tdchrisdavis, and I approve this message
Causally he's right
FSU was worse offensively after Richt left. While it was the Noles’ decision to replace him with Fredo, thus making FSU responsible for being worse, he was right to make the argument so the jury can hear…it even if it is going to be thrown out.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on May 4, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
It's axiomatic that correlation does not equal causation.
The cause of FSU’s decline was lack of a competent OC 2001-2006, not the lack of Mark Richt.
There’s a reason many fans were excited when CMR, known for excrutiating predictability and no running game (which both miami and Bob Stoops exploited in 2000), moved on.
There were many good OC’s to be had at that point (one of which was named Jimbo Fisher), and FSU could have easily taken a step up. But Bobby gave us Fredo. That’s the cause of the decline.
Apparently, Ann was wrong. :)
by PeachTreeNole on May 4, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Duh
It was in no way causal, I don’t know why I said that. I meant to insinuate correlation. Fiesta response causes the Ryno’s facepalm.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on May 4, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe I need to spend some time on Dawgsport, but...
Every UGA fan I’ve spoken to doesn’t like losing 3-4 games a year but recognizes:
1. Its a reality that when 2-3 teams in that conference finish in the top 10 that year, that the other teams will have to bear the brunt of their success and settle for dissapointment.
2. Mark Richt has given them quite a bit of realitive success, and for that he has earned some capital that allows for fans to accept 2-3 loss seasons and offer some patience.
This is somewhat similar to FSU fanbase reactions in the early 2000s. The differences being Richt has not hired an underqualifed assistant at the behest of the University, and that RIcht’s capital has been built over a decade and not 25 years like Bowden’s was.
Richt’s seat is warm, and FSU fans along with other fans and media have a right to claim that. But to play the Dawg’s Advocate on their behalf, you can’t say a ship is sunk before its even begun listing.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on May 4, 2010 3:08 PM EDT reply actions
I appreciate your reasoned comments and agree....
Additionally, I don’t think we Dawg fans have a problem with fans and the media claiming Richt is on the hot seat. We have a problem with fans and the media saying that we think he is (or should be for that matter). Read any recent article about Richt’s status in the regional and national media and you will almost certainly find that “Georgia fans” (or “Most Georgia fans” in the most glaring cases) have problems with Richt and think he is on the hot seat.
I’ve yet to meet one of these “Georgia fans”.
There are certainly folks who are frustrated or disappointed with the team’s performance the last two years but there are very few, if any, that think we should get rid of Richt and find someone better (Other than Meyer, Saban, or maybe Stoops, I don’t know who that will be).
I, for one, am quite hesitant to anoint either Muschamp or Smart because, frankly, the college football coaching landscape is peppered with great coordinators that made crappy head coaches.
Agreed...
Why drop Richt who is FAR more successful than his predecessors when there is no guarantee that the new hire will likely be anything better.
Programs like UGA that are at a subjective Tier 2 level, have a difficult decision. With a strong W-L record, you have little political capital to fire the coach. But, do you continue at this good but not great level? Do you fire a coach who wins 9-10 games annually only to roll the dice with a new coach who may only get to 6-7 wins? Remember the case of Tom Coughlin and the NY Giants. After blowing a game against the Carolina Panthers in his second year as HC of the Giants to lose the NFC Championship, his Giants lose 6 of their last 8 and all of NY is expecting him to be canned. He comes back the next year and loses the first two games. The media is calling him a lame duck coach. They expect him to be fired at the end of the season, and laugh at any personnel moves he makes. Meanwhile, he closes the year by winning the Superbowl. Now he’s the best coach in the NFL.
I’m not convinced Richt can’t get it done in Athens. I am convinced, however, that he is far better than most, if not all, options available to Damon Evans.
Having said that, Lemay to UGA is not unique. Richt always scores great QB talent. And if it wasn’t Lemay, it would be someone else. Richt inherently will have great QB recruits.
And Martin scoring a top baseball prospect doesn't ever save his job.
Because it’s just not in jeopardy… similar to Richt.
This:
Richt is a Bowden disciple and FSU fans are in a prime position to note that he displays many of Bobby’s positive and negative characteristics.
is something that many Dawg fans just don’t or won’t understand. Whenever we criticize Richt for being too much like Bowden (and Bud alluded to their lack of attention to detail but didn’t name the result: lack of discipline), Dawgs invariably turn to the “fanbase scorned” and “sour grapes” argument. Never mind that quite a few of us were doing handsprings when TWOCOAT Mark left, hoping Bobby would hire an OC with drive and ingenuity. And nevermind how very little talk there was among the Nole nation about going after Richt (or Tommy or Terry for that matter) when Bobby “retired.” We’d seen that play before.
Whatever, if the Dawgs are happy CMR is staying at UGA, then we are all definitely happy. :)
Apparently, Ann was wrong. :)
I think the argument has diverged completely from the main point: Richt is a good coach, but not elite
Richt should have the state of Georgia on lockdown, even southern Georgia, which is arguably geographically closer to FSU than UGA. 60 out of about 100 of UGA’s players are from Georgia. Our roster lists 13 kids from Georgia. Not overwhelming for us, but major coups like Greg Reid and Telvin Smith should be a little disturbing to UGA fans, nonetheless.
I hope they continue to take such recruiting losses in stride
so FSU can maintain its climb back to the top. In 2 years (if not before), we will have surpassed Georgia again as a program. And the benighted Dawgs fans will wonder what happened.
It’s all good. :)
Apparently, Ann was wrong. :)
by PeachTreeNole on May 4, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
In Georgia, geography isn't arguable
and South Georgia is a lot closer to FSU than UGA, as in 1 hour < 4 hours.
That’s just snark, though. We wanted Reid and Smith, but I am not worried that we didn’t get them. It would have been nice to have them, but you can’t win them all. I do not view a few recruits going elsewhere as a sign of problems. We get our fair share.
by first and thom on May 4, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
State school name menas a lot.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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Why?
"I'm just a big, hairy, American winning machine"
by Randall W. Spetman on May 4, 2010 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably because it's repeated all the time
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Oh. I've never heard that.
I’ve always seen it as more geographically centered. For example, there’s a ton of FSU fans in S. Ga, and a ton of Bama fans in Pensacola, LSU fans in MS, AL, etc.
"I'm just a big, hairy, American winning machine"
by Randall W. Spetman on May 4, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I would think that SoGa is still Dawg country right?
Reason I ask is because when freshcollegeboy interviewed Telvin Smith he said there were nothin but Dawgs in the restuarant there. Just curious. And has the Panhandle area always been dominated by Bama fans (Aside from the 90’s of course!)?
by westcoastnolefan on May 4, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Lots of FSU fans in SOWEGA.... Auburn too
There were plenty of UGA fans, but they are in the minority
Grrreat rebuttal
BOOM! Tough actin’ Tinactin!
by Tubby Sweetbundle on May 4, 2010 3:57 PM EDT reply actions
ahaha
no one knew michael irvin had a crack pipe on the sidelines
by Weasie on May 4, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
acutally many people knew
they were just hoping to get a hit so they didnt rat him out…
seems to me that the rabid uga fan reaction meshes perfectly w/ the thrust of bud's argument
his point:
keeping richt around is good for us, since he’s only a decent coach/recruiter, who is perilously close to the elderly bowden in process and results; so we’re happy that he landed this qb as it reduces the effectiveness of a potential rival
their response:
you play in the acc (so relevant) richt is god, we want to crown him coach for life!
his counter point:
see point #1
I dont think they're saying Richt is God
They’re mostly saying they wont listen to any criticism from anyone in the ACC – essentially because we are beneath them.
by Mr. Tito Carlos on May 4, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think that's what is being said at all.
I think the majority of the posts are pretty reasonable. If the article Bud originally wrote had stuck to the objective points and not gotten into the subjective, I don’t think the Georgia people would’ve been quite as defensive. It was the statements like “Georgia fans are content with losing 3 to 4 games a year” and so on that riled up many readers. The point is not lost on me (nor is it lost on the majority of the Dawgsports community) that LeMay going to Georgia is helpful for Florida State because he won’t be going to Florida, Clemson, North Carolina, etc. To say that Florida State is much better off with Richt at the helm because Florida State is recruiting better in South Georgia, however, is something that most Georgia fans simply disagree with.
I’ll pose this question (I also posed it on the Dawgsports thread)…where is the evidence that Florida State is recruiting any better in South Georgia since Richt was hired? I would assume (I don’t know this for sure) that Florida State has always recruited well in South Georgia. Geographically, many of the cities are closer to Tallahassee than they are to Athens. Many of the people living in those cities are Florida State fans, Florida State alumni, etc. Additionally, Georgia is the largest state east of the Mississippi and is one of the biggest recruiting hotbeds in the nation. The fact that Georgia has just two FBS schools for all of those recruits leaves some major underabsorption, so naturally, other schools will pick them up. Florida State is in a state with five different FBS schools, so they’re going to have to look somewhere other than the state of Florida for talent. South Georgia is a natural avenue to do just that.
Players from Columbus and LaGrange often matriculate at Alabama or Auburn, as their area of the state tends to have more alumni and fans from those two schools. Georgia is a large state, and some of the players’ hometowns lie closer to Tallahassee, Tuscaloosa, Auburn, Knoxville, Clemson, or Gainesville than they do to Athens. The fact that they end up going to school in those respective cities, not in Athens, is neither a coincidence, nor is it a knock on Mark Richt. It’s simple geography.
by hailtogeorgia on May 4, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I look this up going back to 2007, when Jimbo first came onboard. Over the last 4 recruiting classes, both UGA and FSU have picked up 7 recruits. UGA averages 3.28 stars over that period at FSU averages 3.43. Oddly, Clemson averages more(3.5) but that’s also between just 2 recruits. I didn’t bother going much farther back since the recruiting troubles FSU had during the Lost Decade are well documented on this website.
I think you are right hailtogeorgia
Frankly I think there are enough players to go around, so perhaps the recruiting comes out as a wash in the end.
The bigger question for me is this……Do you think Mark Richt is a great coach that can get Georgia to the next level that UF and Alabama are at now?
Yes, diablo, I do.
Some people can call these reasons excuses, but the fact remains the same that Mark Richt has put his team in a position to be in the NC. Mack Brown suffered this same complaint until he won in 2005.
In 2002, Richt went 13-1, won the SEC, but wouldn’t have had a chance to play for a national championship unless Miami or Ohio State lost (both were ranked higher to start the year than UGA). Neither of them lost.
In 2005, Richt went 12-2, won the SEC, but wouldn’t have had a chance to play for a national championship unless Texas or USC lost. They didn’t.
In 2007, Richt went 11-2. Had any of three teams (THREE FREAKING TEAMS, it still gets me mad) made a field goal against Tennessee in the closing seconds of games/OT, Georgia goes to the SEC Championship and faces LSU. If Georgia wins that game, they go to the National Championship.
Sometimes, the ball bounces your way, sometimes it doesn’t. Meyer has won two national championships, neither of which came in undefeated seasons. Les Miles won a NC with two losses (and Georgia finished the year with the same number of losses). Say what you will about homer-ism, but I’m pretty confident Georgia was a better team than LSU in 2007.
It is what it is…could Richt have won a close game and changed his luck in these situations? Certainly. Does that change the fact that other coaches have done the same thing Richt has done (or less) and have won national championships and don’t get this kind of criticism? No. I think Richt will do it. Some people don’t. Either way, I don’t know of any reasonable coach on the market right now who would do any better than Richt.
by hailtogeorgia on May 4, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok then
Are you concerned that UGA has dropped 3 or more games 4 times in the last 5 years and blew the #1 pre-season ranking in 2008? What will change to make UGA lose 0 or 1 games?
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Had Richt not entirely gutted the defensive staff...
…save for one coach, I would be worried. As it is, I’m not. Our defense has been atrocious and any UGA fan will tell you that. 2006 we were using a true freshman at quarterback, so 9-4 with a bowl win was pretty nice. 2007 I’ve touched on already, 2008 and 2009 both fall under the category of “We’d rather play grab ass than defense.”
I like the changes we’ve made on defense. Grantham is an aggressive coach who is very high on fundamentals. Our other two defensive coaches (Lakatos and Belin) both did an outstanding job of maximizing minimal talent at their prior positions, so I’m confident that they will be able to do much more with more. Will it be a seamless transition in year one? Of course not…then again, Alabama took its lumps in its first year with Saban as well.
Our offense has never (in my mind) been the issue. Sure, there are times when Bobo’s decision making puzzles me, but he’s still a work in progress and you can tell he’s improving. To score the kind of points we did last year, despite losing Stafford, Moreno, Massaquoi, and having the Ginger Ninja under center, is encouraging.
Have I sufficiently answered your questions?
by hailtogeorgia on May 4, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, absolutely
I sense UGA is running more Phillips 3-4 rather than the 2-gap 34 Bama runs. Should be very interesting contrast in styles in 2012 when UGA faces Bama again.
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You're right.
And to be clear, I didn’t mean that last question to come off snarky…it was an honest question. Grantham is running the Phillips 3-4…it’s a one gap style. He’s a really interesting guy to listen to in interviews…he’s one of the few coaches who will really dig into the x’s and o’s of his scheme with reporters. Part of that may be because it’s new to everyone so there’s more interest, but I like hearing someone talk about what, specifically, they’re going to do to fix issues and not always hear the Willie Martinez staple: “We just need to execute better”.
by hailtogeorgia on May 4, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
We heard that similar refrain from our recently fired defensive staff.
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Exactly.
Always hearing “there’s nothing wrong with the scheme, we just need to execute better” is frustrating. Sometimes, there is something wrong with the scheme. It’s been very refreshing to hear coaches talk about such strange concepts as “covering the middle” and “playing the ball”. And no, I’m not joking about either of those.
by hailtogeorgia on May 4, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Coaching involves
Knowledge- and the ability to impart it, but schematic knowledge and technique knowledge.
Motivation- not just rah rah on game day but getting players to work hard every day when not being supervised.
Recruiting- obvious
Media/Boosters-
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I have a comparison of the phillips 34 to the parcells.
e-mail me fsuncensored@gmail.com
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Okay, will do.
I may not email you today, as I’m about to get offline, but I will make sure to do it tomorrow (just don’t delete my comments!). It’s been fun, I’m glad we could have a good, intelligent, open-minded conversation. I just joined the blog, but having this type of conversation without garbage comments or stubborn commenters with an axe to grind has been nice. I will definitely return.
by hailtogeorgia on May 4, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
It appeals to a younger fanbase IMO
most are college grads (I think), which lend to a very educated and passionate readership.
"I'm just a big, hairy, American winning machine"
by Randall W. Spetman on May 4, 2010 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
UGA largest state in terms of land?
They’re not larger in population than Florida, NY, ILL, Ohio and Pennsylvania. GA is definitely stacked in talent, but that’s like saying Montana should be the football recruits gold mine bc its friggin huge.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on May 4, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, largest in terms of land.
In terms of population, they’re about 6th. However, both of those go to illustrate my point. The fact that they are largest in geographical area is what causes cities such as Bainbridge, Moultrie, Valdosta, Thomasville, Tifton, and so on to be closer to Tallahassee than they are to Athens. Additionally, Georgia is the second largest state in the south in terms of population, behind only Florida. As our argument pertains to the south, Illinois, New York, and so on aren’t really relevant.
by hailtogeorgia on May 4, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I think your post is well reasoned
And if the UGA blog’s post contained only this, it would have been much more effective. But there were paragraphs about recent records and the conference affiliation of original blogger’s alma mater. Those points have nothing to do with the fact that Richt may or may not be maximizing the potential of the school.
As Bud said, this is ultimately a debate about whether UGA could perform significantly better on and off the field under a different, realistically hire-able coach. I think there are valid points on both sides. But they get lost when a sizeable porion of the rebuttal discusses conference affiliation of the OP, and the record of the school posing the question.
by Mr. Tito Carlos on May 4, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
Bud said “Good is the enemy of great.” That is the issue that UGA fans must contend.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on May 4, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Certainly.
At the same time, there are comments on this very thread stating that Georgia fans are the biggest morons around, so you have to take the good with the bad.
by hailtogeorgia on May 4, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't see any
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Yeah I deleted it
We don’t get 10K viewers per day by name calling.
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You may have deleted it,
but that doesn’t change the fact that it was there.
by hailtogeorgia on May 4, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I usually try to police it, haha
We don’t really need name calling to have a good community
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I agree with you.
You won’t ever see me name calling. Generally, if someone is name calling, it’s because they can’t formulate a legitimate argument on their own.
by hailtogeorgia on May 4, 2010 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Totally agree with that statement
coming from a South Georgia guy right here…. Hell even FSU fans are getting up there
"Its called the Veer"
by EducatedSpear on May 4, 2010 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions
hailtogeorgia
and add to your argument Florida has no other states to contend with that are to its south, east or west. Many recruits come from south Florida and its a long drive out of state.
by Big Boss Mann on May 4, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey Ray
are you from Cobb County, GA?
:)
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher
The point of Bud's article is not that
“Florida State is recruiting better in South Georgia since Richt was hired…”, but that if the Dawgs rose up and fired him, the successor HC would probably do better in South Greorgia to the Noles’ detriment. The Dawg posts that I have seen here have been for the most part well reasoned and argued. However, with the exception of First and Thorn, the Dawg posts have changed the stated main point of the article and then attacked the newly manufactured main point. A point that Bud was not arguing in the first place.
What?
What reason is there to believe that Richt’s successor would do any better in South Georgia than Richt? I thought the point had been made pretty clearly that Florida State will get some guys from South Georgia, regardless. The thought that bringing in a new guy who will somehow be able to lock down South Georgia for some unexplained reason simply doesn’t make sense.
As an aside, even if Kirby Smart were to be Mark Richt’s successor (which I do not believe would ever happen), who is to say that he would be any better recruiting South Georgia than the guys currently on UGA’s staff? Rodney Garner is one of the best recruiters in the business, and Mike Bobo is a pretty good one as well. Bobo, one of the most prolific passers in UGA history, played his high school ball in Thomasville. It’s not like Georgia doesn’t have the connections, I think the expectations are just being put a little too high. UGA isn’t going to be able to get all the four and five star guys from an area of the state that’s literally a five hour drive from Athens.
by hailtogeorgia on May 5, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Here's "What". Now we are talking.
You have at long last addressed the main conclusion of Bud’s article and diasagreed with it using cogent argumentation. The failurer that in most of the previous posts was the object of my dismay. Now we have a conversation and a lively disputation over what Bud wrote and not tangential matters. Good job.
Because UGA's staff is slow in evaluating kids
FSU routinely beats them in offering kids by months. A Saban modeled team under Smart would not do that.
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My knowledge of recruiting tactics of the two schools...
is rudimentary at best, so as much as I’d like to offer a rebuttal to that, I can’t. If that’s true, then it’s a shame, but I would like to think that there are other factors at play besides just slow evaluation times.
by hailtogeorgia on May 5, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
We beat UGA by several months with Telvin Smith
and for whatever reason, these kids place a huge emphasis on the first major offer.
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For instance,
perhaps many of the players that end up on both team’s boards are more highly sought after by Florida State. That isn’t to say that UGA is better than FSU in that regard, I just mean that it could very well be that South Georgia kids are of higher importance to Florida State than they are to Georgia. Just an idea.
by hailtogeorgia on May 5, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Absolutely
and we like it that way. If UGA got a coach that placed a huge emphasis on SoGA, that would be bad for FSU. Which is what I was trying to say in the article.
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Other posters have brought this up as well
But I too believe that it’s imperative the have a presence in SoGa regardless of who’s UGA’s HC. Obviously, we’ve always been an option for the Carter’s, Butts. Wards, and Tay Cody’s of the world. But hasn’t a close proximity to SoGa sorta compensated for the distance between FSU and the wealth of talent in Dade and Broward? PBC being a UF stronghold would only make an FSU presence in SoGa even more important I would think. Am I off base in that thinking?
by westcoastnolefan on May 5, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
I don’t think it’s a matter of South Georgia not being of importance to Richt (or UGA, for that matter). I think it’s more of a matter of it being of more importance to FSU than it is to UGA. FSU must compensate for having to battle with Miami and Florida for other big name guys in Florida…while Georgia is busy battling with Auburn, Alabama, Tennessee, Clemson, and South Carolina for guys in Atlanta, Columbus, etc.
by hailtogeorgia on May 5, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
That is an awful lot of schools to contend with. LSU has it much easier
The basic gameplan for FSU will, or at least should be to continue to pull SoGa kids while making inroads into metro Miami. Since it’s apparent that Randy Shannon can’t control the borders in his own backyard. Hell,even Ohio State and WVU gets SoFla kids now
by westcoastnolefan on May 5, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree,
and that’s not even to mention that at the same time, Georgia is working to pull some Florida talent as well, while still having to fight off Florida, Florida State, and Miami for some Atlanta talent. Florida, for instance, got the best running back in Atlanta last year.
by hailtogeorgia on May 5, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
It seems most dawgs believe Kirby simply leveraged UGA's offer into more money from Bama
Without really seriously considering UGA’s DC offer. I haven’t a clue if thats truly the case. But thats what I gather from the posts I’ve read from dawg fans. The job offer to Kirby seems to be a hot button topic in Ga. Smart probably did do something to justify ill feelings though
by westcoastnolefan on May 5, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think he used it as leverage.
I think he honestly thought about it and gave it the kind of consideration it merited. However, that doesn’t change the fact that when Mama comes calling and really needs you, and you say no, that she may not ever come calling again and her feelings are definitely hurt.
by hailtogeorgia on May 5, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Richt probably isn't or shouldn't be on the hotseat. That much has been established from the UGA perspective
That notwithstanding,the hard feelings that exists are somewhat similar to the situation with Jim Harbaugh and Michigan. At UM at least, I do believe those feelings can be put aside if Rich Rod is let go and due to the fact Harbaugh has done quite the job at Stanford thus far. Not to mention, a prominent Bay Area (California) Michigan Alumni club has been closely following his progress. That being said, if the UGA HC job does indeed open up eventually, has Smart burned that bridge to the point that he wouldn’t be considered? He does not seem to inspire the most affectionate feelings in Athens to say the least
by westcoastnolefan on May 5, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know that he's burned the bridge completely,
but he’s definitely done considerable damage. Kirby turning down the DC job was a PR nightmare for Georgia…to re-offer a HC position and have him turn that one down would be insufferable.
He may still be able to come back to Athens at some point, but he’s going to have to know his name, his quest, and the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow, that’s for sure.
by hailtogeorgia on May 5, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Mr Tito hits the nail on the head
I had a Mississippi State grad giving me grief the other day about the same thing. Telling me how bad the ACC was, it was a joke of a conference and not one team from the ACC has ever beaten an SEC team, and he was totally serious. He went so far as to say that Mississippi State would beat FSU by 4 TDs if they ever played. A lot of my family is SEC homers, they believe the worst team in the SEC could beat almost any other conferences best team and even worse…they believe the winner of the SEC could beat an NFL team.
You will never ever convince an SEC homer otherwise, and frankly, I believe that most of the SEC fans are these type of fans.
Sweet! A good, old-fashioned border war to spice up the afternoon!
Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
by mmmCheese on May 4, 2010 4:47 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Richt is a great guy
However it is hard not to admit he does have some of the same flaws Bobby had. He does have that easy go, lack of attention to detail and it seems the ability to lose the big game also.
One problem he brought on himself was keeping Martinez. There again picking a coordinator with not much of a track record simply because he felt he would work out.
If Georgia is happy with Mark hey I am happy for them. With most Georgia fans not really familiar with what is going on at FSU on the offensive side I can see where they think Fisher could be overrated. I think this season will solve that riddle however as FSU is pretty stacked and experienced on offense.
It is just a feeling by some of us that with the talent on hand and the new defensive coaches the defense will be pretty good also. Of course it hasn’t translated on the field yet. I think it will though. I can guarantee you that Fisher would never have hired Willie Martinez as a DC nor kept him around that long. I can guarantee you that.
I think Mark is a nice guy and I wish him success but I do think he is good not great as has been said around here now about a hundred times. May he rise to the occasion and hang an L on the gators. Go to it.
Personally this season will settle some things. I think FSU has a better shot at beating the gators this year than UGA does.
Bring back Peter Tom Willis
Ann say hello to the grand kids
100 mile radius from BCS schools near Georgia.
Georgia does have many BCS schools nearby, so suggesting that Georgia should be able to lockdown the state is laughable. No state is alike, and unlike Georgia, Florida has the luxury of having the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic Ocean bordering most of it.
FSU fans should demand success in South Georgia, rather than get excited when we “steal one from UGA.” If UGA recruits well in SOWEGA, then it’s FSU’s fault.
This would be true if there were no state lines.
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State lines are less important than proximity.
Growing up in SOWEGA, most folks were FSU fans, with mixed UGA, GT, Auburn and UF fans. Geographically, Georgia (the state) has many programs who can claim a backdoor into their Highschools. Further, with Atlanta being a huge alumni base for most of these programs, the interest in schools other than GT and UGA is far higher than in states like Alabama, Tennessee and South Carolina.
Auburn is literally a half hour from Columbus. FSU is 45 minutes from Thomasville, Cairo and Bainbridge… an hour to Valosta and Moultrie. Clemson almost has UGA’s footprint and although not a huge recruiting threat, GT resides in Atlanta. Fortunately for UGA, not many kids can qualify or are worth the academic risk at GT.
Point is, UGA by being in Georgia cannot expect to lock down the state like Alabama or Texas. The situations are quite different.
Would you agree Bama has pretty much locked up their state?
How does their proximity map look?
"If lessons were learned in defeat, our team is getting a great education." -Murray Warmath
Just imagining that... I'll make one later
You see Auburn….
FSU has a small influence in SE Alabama, but not nearly like SW Georgia
The two Mississippi teams have some influence from the west
LSU, UT, UGA and Arkansas are close, but really out of the picture (their radiuses don’t cross the state line)
Vandy counts, but their standards and lack of athletics prestige diminishes their influence
GT is in similar boat as Vandy, though closer to Alabama than Vandy
So really, Bama is fighting against Auburn and to a much lesser extent, Ole Miss and Mississippi State for Bama kids.
Now, I will say that Georgia (state) talent is far superior to Alabama (state) talent. Still, limiting the # of battles in your backyard allows you to focus on bigger prizes in other people’s backyards.
That is one helluva map. How did you do the circles?
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An old fashioned way... google is limited in its editing and real GIS tools...
and I didnt feel like using ArcGIS for this… so I just overlayed 100 mile radius circles on the map from MS office and did a screenshot.
I’m sure i could make this look better in ArcGIS, but it would take me too long to reteach myself
How do you get the circles to do the shading.
Is there a tutorial you could link
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Do you have PowerPoint 2007?
You draw a circle, color the outline, then color the fill. If you go to more fill colors you can change the transparency by %…
That's pretty cool. Thanks.
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I think that map
Demonstrates one reason I give Richt some credit – UGA is in more battles than anyone except maybe Clemson. They have very little non-overlapping territory. Ouch.
I think that drastically oversimplifies things.
Just because other schools are geographically close does not indicate the level of competition for a recruit. None of these schools is within 100 miles of Dade county but you think recruiting doesn’t get viscous down there?
Well...
Don’t people make too much of “recruiting base” then?
Is geography very important or not? It’s one of the main reasons why certain schools have been listed as elite and others are not; thus, in one of the key components to elite status, Georgia faces severe competition on all sides.
What's the standard definition of recruiting base?
When people use the term (and make observations like Bud did, above: “Also, this graph is great for showing how Jacksonville, Orlando, Tampa are not within a 125 mile radius of FSU but they are for UF”), I get the impression they mean geography.
There is something to say about “state lines” (though I believe this is growing less important; and I believe that many “border” schools allow nearby out-of-state students to pay in-state tuition, lessening the border factor), but otherwise distance seems to be what most people mean when they say “recruiting base.”
The fact that UGA has multiple BCS schools overlapping its own “home area” surely affects things. And if Miami is so contested, why wouldn’t another major metro area like Atlanta be just as contested – more so, even, with all the nearby schools.
Distance is not the primary predictor.
It’s the amount of effort the staff places in recruiting an area. Is it easier to place significance in your home town? Sure. But to act like Georgia has it tougher than Miami to recruit local kids because there are no major schools within 100 miles of Dade county disrespects the amount of competition that goes on in South Florida recruiting.
Yes, UM has loads of competition.
I never contested that. But that doesn’t affect UGA. In fact, since one of the primary reasons UGA is considered to have Tier 1 potential is due to its recruiting base, it stands to reason that not only does UGA have to deal with other schools in its geographic proximity, but one would expect more (farther away) schools to try to invade a recruiting hotbed (which the Atlanta metro area must be for UGA to have an elite recruiting base) – perhaps not as much as south Florida, but enough to complicate matters even further.
If you want me to say, “Fine, UM faces more recruiting competition than anyone” I can say that. My main point was to question the sentiment that UGA should definitely have as strong a program as Bama and uf, and Richt basically is doing a very poor job because he averages a measly 10 wins per year (and the accompanying 3 losses in modern 13-14 game schedules). The map above indicates that UGA’s “recruiting base” is highly contested (and if you don’t think that matters, let’s look at UM right now; much has been made about their recent recruiting class).
And, to question something I missed from an earlier post, how does it “drastically oversimplify things” when I originally said “one reason” – that very qualification indicates that there is not a simple answer to why I give Richt more leeway than other people.
Distance may not equal influence,
but when there are numerous out of state schools that fall in closer proximity to some Georgia cities/regions than Athens does, it certainly has an effect.
by hailtogeorgia on May 5, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bama has the advanage but I wouldn't say they've locked it up.
"Remember, what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Except for Herpes. That s#!t will come back with you."
Can you add an Athens circle? How did you make this graphic?
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Also, this graph is great for showing how Jacksonville, Orlando, Tampa are not within a 125 mile radius of FSU but they are for UF
Though I’d never trade Tally for Hogtown
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C'mon now
In all this mess we are all clearly missing the biggest selling point of all for FSU….
You’ve got the Redneck Riviera all to yourselves!!!
Love the username
and you’re right!
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Hey now...
Some of us live on the Redneck Riviera!
"I'm just a big, hairy, American winning machine"
by Randall W. Spetman on May 4, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
and some of us used to.
nm
Apparently, Ann was wrong. :)
by PeachTreeNole on May 4, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Go Ahead Fire Richt
He is only the best thing to happen to the program since Vince Dooley….
The guy hasnt had a losing season since he has been there!
Cant succeed in the modern era? The guy won 10 games in 2008
Good Lord I hate modern football and the fans…
And hell i love ESPN classic you can even catch some old AWA matches on there if your careful
"Its called the Veer"
And had the most talented team in the country in 2008, right?
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I thought UGA was overrated going into that year. I tried to tell people
Thought UF and USC was better.Maybe even Texas too (I slept on OU). Had no clue about Bama though. Hell, we had beaten them the previous year
by westcoastnolefan on May 4, 2010 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Lets talk about Talent Bud
They had the first pick and Stafford and another first rounder in Moreno.
Hell they were pretty athletic im sure you can see some of their old 08 games on ESPNClassic bud
Its channel 208 if you got Direct TV
"Its called the Veer"
by EducatedSpear on May 4, 2010 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I am agreeing with you
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That would be a first then
"Its called the Veer"
by EducatedSpear on May 4, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Thats the point
UGA had an “elite” team, in terms of talent. However, they didnt even make it to a BCS bowl.
by Carryingaspearorrunningfromit on May 5, 2010 2:06 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Line Issues
They didn’t have great depth on the offensive or defensive lines and that cost them.
by NationWideNole on May 5, 2010 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Hmmm...
a lack of offensive line depth. See also:
Bowden’s teams in the decade
Brad Scott’s group at SoCarolina pre-firing
Clemson and Dabo is still trying to fix it.
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Under normal circumstances,
Georgia didn’t have depth issues. Under the circumstances of losing three separate starting linemen to season-ending injuries, you run into depth issues. Georgia had an unbelievably unlucky year in terms of injuries in 2008. Does that account for everything? Certainly not…but it definitely adds to it.
by hailtogeorgia on May 5, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Also,
the depth issues at line are gone now because of 2008, and it’s one of our deepest positions. It goes both ways.
by hailtogeorgia on May 5, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
It seems to be much better now
Losing Sturdivant was huge.
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Yes, it was.
Last year, he tore his other ACL in the first game of the year. The only bright side is that if he DOES come back this year (which all reports are that he is rehabbing better than last year and feels stronger than last year) and stays healthy, he’s a luxury, as opposed to a key piece. The staff (and Coach Searels) have actually nicknamed him “The Luxury” now.
by hailtogeorgia on May 5, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
How would Bowden's teams in the 00s influence Richt's?
We would need to look at the OL depth during Richt’s tenure at FSU in the 90s in order to make a real connection, right?
Isn’t this similar reasoning to the much-panned UGA points about examining FSU’s record pre and post Richt?
Indeed it is.
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I enjoy any article
in which Bud completely suports the noles. he runs the site yes, but ive seen a few sightings in which he has strayed away a tiny bit in terms if his support-so whenever I see bud go all noles our nothing, I have his back 100 %, great read
by LetsGoNoles on May 4, 2010 11:31 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I think it's all about how much Koolaid one drinks
Criticism is not synonymous with lack of support and Bud is unquestionably a Seminole. Most of what you are referring to is likely comments against poor coaching decisions made by Bowden/Martin or realistic predictions of how the team should fare in 2010, most of which has at least some support in statistics. Spending 100% of the time agreeing with everything a coach/program is doing is not support, it’s blind fanaticism. Even ignoring the fact that it is boring and pointless, it doesn’t help the program find success. I’m glad you agree with this piece – just keep an open mind in the future (even if you end up disagreeing).
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