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Size Matters On Defense: 2009 Season In Review

Today's article is a continuation of a multi-year series from Tomahawk Nation in which we examine the size of the front 7 (defensive linemen and linebackers), in terms of weight, of the elite defenses in the country.  You often hear announcers talk about using speed to defend many of the spread offenses (particularly the spread-to-run attacks).  What we've seen, however, is that bigger really is better.  You can read all about the idea here (read it first, before reading the rest of today's article).  The basic premise, however, is that an over-emphasis on speed leads some defenses astray as they are unable to hold the point of attack, which creates really difficult angles for other defenders.  Speedy defenders try to speed around blocks, but smart offenses know this and scheme around it.  Having a large front 7 allows teams to sit in 2-deep coverage or play lots of games in the secondary, because they do not have to use their safeties in run support all the time.

Examining FSU's 2009 Defensive Collapse

In August of 2009, Florida State defensive coordinator Mickey Andrews said the 2009 Seminole defense would be his fastest ever.  While many 'Nole fans were encouraged by the statement, we here at TomahawkNation.com were worried.  

We were concerned because FSU's defense did not need to get faster coming off a season which saw the 'Noles defense get extremely lucky in multiple games.  No, FSU's defense needed to get bigger and stronger.  Four months before Andrews made his statement, I wrote:

The 'Noles defense did not improve or reach an elite level, despite being deeper, more talented, more experienced, and much healthier than the 2007 edition.  While the injury to DT Emannuel Dunbar and the early departure of DT Latroy Guion definitely hurt the 'Noles, the defense was still entirely comprised of upper classmen.  Is 20th acceptable for a Seminole defense with 11 upperclassmen starters?  Surely not.  Tthe 'Noles were handcuffed by their lack of size and Andrews' scheme.  Where other programs have the option of using the 8th man in the box, FSU has forced itself into using the strategy on a huge percentage of downs.  With the current personnel, the 'Noles defense has become sort of a high school basketballesque "pack it in" defense.  Of course, The "pack it in" doesn't work at the in college hoops and neither does the 'Noles defense as it is currently comprised.  FSU could be in some serious trouble in 2009 as teams are going to realize FSU cannot stop the run and will run first before passing.  The 'Noles must pray that Moses McCray improves a lot and stays healthy, that Justin Mincey stays in school and gets to practice, and that they can get something from Stewart/ Thacker.  Expecting a major contribution in 2009 from Jacobi McDaniel is unrealistic.

FSU's '08 defense was largely smoke and mirrors.  The 2009 defense was expected by most (not us, we projected a collapse) to stay the same or perhaps take a small step back.  But everything that FSU needed to go right, did not.  McCray could not stay healthy.  Justin Mincey was awful and often injured.  Stewart and Thacker were awful players who were completely over matched on the inside.  And super-recruit Jacobi McDaniel had a few flashes, but as is the case with pretty much every 1st-year defensive lineman, he did not contribute much.  Throw in rumors of racism from a coach Jimbo Fisher would fire upon taking over after the season, questionable decisions about which players should start, with terrible coaching from Chuck Amato, and FSU's defense plummeted to 96th in the country.

This chart illustrated why the hopes that FSU could maintain or slightly lose ground from its 2008 success were quickly dashed:

FSU's Projected 2009 Front 7 FSU's Actual 2009 Front 7 (for much of the year)
DE   260 lbs Markus White DE   260 lbs Markus White
DE   255 lbs Kevin McNeil McNeil DE   228 lbs Craig Yarborough
DT    300 lbs Moses McCray DT    270 lbs  Budd Thacker
DT    280 lbs Justin Mincey DT    280 lbs Justin Mincey
LB    239 lbs Nigel Bradham LB    239 lbs Nigel Bradham
LB    244 lbs  Vince Williams
LB    229 lbs  Kendal Smith
LB    228 lbs  Dekoda Watson LB    228 lbs  Dekoda Watson
Total:  1806 lbs Total 1734 lbs

You're reading that correctly.  Due to injury and poor personnel decisions, FSU's defense that was supposed to be 71 lbs stouter than the 2008 edition was actually a pound lighter!  Combine that with some of the worst coaching in college football, and you have a recipe for disaster.  Back to FSU tomorrow, but for now let's examine the best 20 defenses from 2009 and see how stout their front 7's were.   Click "continue reading" to see the size of the best defenses nationally!

Star-divide

2009 National Review

*Defensive Weights Taken From School Websites.  # of starts were used to determine starter.  If players split time (2 with 5+ starts each, their weights were averaged). 

* Best 20 defenses determined by FootballOutsiders.com

* We are not saying that being really big on defense will make a defense good.  Only that it is very unlikely that a team will field an elite defense without having requisite size.

Here we go:

Rank Team Pounds Comment
1 Alabama 1911 Only true 3-4 team on the list.  Only team to best 1900 lbs in consecutive seasons.  Perhaps the best college defense of the decade.  Mt. Cody helped them best the 1900 lb mark.  Made UF's juggernaut offense look downright pedestrian not with speed, but with size and leverage. 
2 Oklahoma 1791 Tremendous NFL-level talent coming out in '10 and in the upcoming '11 draft.  Playing in Big-12 they often ran a Nickel package.  Held many elite offenses well below their season averages.
3 Iowa 1821 Enormous defensive ends make Iowa the inverted team.  Not great pass-rushers, but Iowa was great against the pass because it put opponents in very difficult passing situations (3rd & long) by being great against the run in early downs.  Those difficult passing situations allowed it to execute a variety of exotic blitzes without having to concern itself with the run.
4 Nebraska 1795 Tremendous line play allowed the 'Huskers the opportunity to play only two linebackers much of the time.  Would be even bigger if they weren't always using a Nickel linebacker.  Still, big defense and great results. 
5 Ohio State 1784 287 lb defensive end Cameron Heyward set the edge for the Buckeyes as the big, but not all that fast Ohio State defense shut down Oregon in the rose bowl. 
6 TCU 1781 Impressive size from a mid-major team. 
7 Florida 1883 7th was a disappointment for the unit most thought to be the nation's best entering the season.  Injuries and behavior problems took their toll, but UF still finished 7th.  290-lb End Carlos Dunlap was a beast when motivated. 
8 Penn State 1818 5 players from the front-7 were drafted.  Impressive crop, but a re-building year is coming.
9 North Carolina 1855 UNC boasts Mel Kiper's top DE, DT, MLB, and OLB.  Tremendous size and talent at each position.  The 'Heel's problem was a lack of depth. 
10 Texas 1807 Another great defense from Will Muschamp.  Much larger than listed on some websites.
11 Boise State 1808 After years of being undersized, Boise State's defense was very good last season and was great at stopping the run.
12 LSU 1868 Defense wasn't the problem in Death Valley as John Chavis left Tennessee to inherit some serious talent in the bayou.  They sometimes appeared frustrated as the offense had multiple games with multiple turnovers. 
13 Boston Coll 1768 A year after being the largest defense in the country, BC's group took a 135 lb step back!  Excellent coaching helped them overcome their lack of size to be one of only two defenses on the list under 1780 lbs. 
14 S. Carolina 1798 Like LSU, defense is not the problem in South Carolina.  The Gamecocks employ a variety of unique looks under defensive coordinator Ellis Johnson, but USCe stops the run first without over-involving its safeties in the run game. 
15 Va. Tech 1736 By far the lightest defense in the group.  The Hokies performed very well and as usual, involved their safeties heavily in the run game.  But there is some potential negative foreshadowing here.  Virginia Tech lost a ton of talent to graduation and the draft.  And they could use their safeties in the run game so much because they didn't face any good passing teams.  VT missed the ACC's top passing attack (FSU), and faced Miami in a downpour, making it all but impossible for the Canes to throw.  Additionally, the other teams Virginia Tech faced (Maryland, Boston College, UNC, Georgia Tech, Nebraska, Virginia, Tennessee) were below average to downright bad throwing the ball.  The only good passing team Va Tech faced was NC State.  The bottom line is that Va Tech performed very well against the hand they were dealt, but the Hokies won't be able to use their safeties as much as they did last season.  If they do, they risk getting torched in the passing game.
16 Clemson 1807 Clemson has had a top 16 or better defense now for 4 years running.  The Tigers have excellent size on the defensive line and are very well coached. 
17 Ole Miss 1790 Like LSU, UNC, Nerbaska, and South Carolina, Ole Miss had an excellent defense that was often overshadowed by a terrible offense. 
18 Utah 1837 The third mid-major team on the list, Utah has surprisingly good size.  Somoans on the defensive line are a big advantage for the Utes. 
19 Miami 1787 The Cane's had a big time resurgence on defense under Randy Shannon as the babies finally turned into men. They look to be top 10 this season with everyone of importance returning and a few personnel changes that will allow this guy to play defensive end at 290 lbs.  Yikes!
20 OK. State 1811 A very veteran group (lose 10 to graduation) turned in a rare special season of defense for the cowboys.  

 

Now the best 20 defenses ordered by front-7 size:

1911 Alabama
1883 Florida
1868 LSU
1855 UNC
1837 Utah
1821 Iowa
1818 Penn State
1811 OKST
1808 Boise State
1807 Texas
1807 Clemson
1798 USCe
1795 Nebraska
1791 Oklahoma
1790 Ole Miss
1787 Miami
1784 OHST
1781 TCU
1768 Boston College
1736 Va Tech

From this we can draw several conclusions. 

Best 20 Defenses Over 1880 lbs 2
Best 20 Defenses Over 1850 lbs 4
Best 20 Defenses Over 1830 lbs 5
Best 20 Defenses Over 1815 lbs 7
Best 20 Defenses Over 1800 lbs 11
Best 20 Defenses Over 1790 lbs 15
Best 20 Defenses Over 1780 lbs 18
Best 20 Defenses Over 1765 lbs 19

90% of the best 20 defenses were over 1780 lbs in the front 7 (and 100% of the 10 best).  75% were over 1790 lbs.  55% were over 1800 lbs! 

Obviously, size in the front 7 matters.  FSU failed to understand that modern offenses were adapting to take advantage of its speed-only strategy and that failure to observe and adjust cost FSU dearly in the last few years. 

Tomorrow, we'll look at how FSU projects in the front 7 for the coming season, examine Florida State's depth, check in on some national stalwarts, and look at a few defenses that could take a step back!

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Multi-year series. My how your little baby has grown.

>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.

by FrankDNole on Jun 28, 2010 9:10 AM EDT reply actions  

As usual, I love this series.

I’m also a firm believer in size in the front 7 for defenses. I am curious about one listed weight, however. I noticed you had Brandon Jenkins listed at 255… last year. Is that what he was officially listed as last year, because I would have sworn it was in the 230’s. Even then, there is no way he was actually over 235 last season, IMO.

by Dark Stranger on Jun 28, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great, great, write-up again, Bud!

T-Nation, those of us willing to learn things really appreciate all you do!

by HROB3 on Jun 28, 2010 9:26 AM EDT reply actions  

Great info

Even though I don’t expect us to be huge or dominant this season, it is my hope that we will be big enough and skilled enough so that we can dominate the less physically gifted teams in the trenches. That would contribute to having more time to rest starters in the 4th, something we haven’t seen much of recently.

by osceolafan2.0 on Jun 28, 2010 9:28 AM EDT reply actions  

I remember hearing that speed statement last summer

and getting super excited, I never realized that size truly matters, I never been so excited to see our players gain weight. Also great great write up, is it september 4th yet???

"theres two types of people in this world, those who CARRY a spear and those who FEAR the spear"-James Coley

by jfree on Jun 28, 2010 9:35 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

2 months, 6 days

It’s going to be an agonizingly slow, kool-aid filled ride.

>>---l>

by DKfromVA on Jun 28, 2010 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

theres the countdown ^_^

I’m just imagining what these “fastest players ever” on defense can do with the proper weight gains and proper coaching, the koolaid is surprisingly sweet

"theres two types of people in this world, those who CARRY a spear and those who FEAR the spear"-James Coley

by jfree on Jun 28, 2010 9:48 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I remember that speed statement as well.

It made me feel that same way. I joined TN sometime during the season. I had no idea what was going on. I held on to the “speed kills” theory, for a long time. From the great analysis that I have seen on TN, I now believe that speed kills, but size, technic (sp?) and strength on the front seven, enhances speed, and raises speed’s level of toxicity.

by Nole75 on Jun 28, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

When I heard it, I knew something was wrong...

why would a coach on a downward trending program mention speed, above all else, as his squad’s only accolade. It’s all he had left to boast about.

by Caveman Mafia on Jun 28, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

i didn't get it until

I heard we were starting a walk-on defensive end and I noticed not just how light he was, but how light the whole line was. Not good for facing Fla and Georgia tech. Really, we have been too light since 2000. We compensated by playing a bulky mlb, but then Phillips Rivers isolated him and dump-passed his way up and down the field, 5 yards at a time. Since then we have been calling junk defense exclusively. Go back to the wide open te in orange bowl.

by Ponder This on Jun 28, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's raci...

Oh wait… we’re not talking about …

yeah nevermind

by MattDNole on Jun 28, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice. But it was nothing to do with footspeed.

I am sure even our third string safety could have covered those guys who were increasingly wide open. I am also quite sure mickey gave up certain routes by design being that it was a regular occurrence. Between the declining dl play and the growing intel , those routes got exploited more frequently.

by Ponder This on Jun 28, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think we successfully masked our problems in the early 2000s by having NFL-caliber DTs.

Once we ran out of those types of DTs, the whole thing really fell apart.

by nolesontop on Jun 28, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Well then that is not masking it

Having NFL caliber DT’s is part of a solution for any scheme. That is part of the equation. Even now with coaches trying to teach new systems, they are smart enough to know having the talent is half the battle.

by nolestuff on Jun 28, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I remember someone saying something that

kinda sums it up pretty easily. Something along the lines of “there is a reason you don’t have 11 Greg Reids on defense.”

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Jun 28, 2010 10:04 AM EDT reply actions  

Are you kidding...? 11 Greg Reids would be da bomb.... way too much speed...shhhhhhhh...

well maybe 10 Greg Reids and 1 LJ… dude is stoopid fast…

/never reads the article

by coonhound on Jun 28, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think Mickey Andrews was just a victim of his own success.

When Mickey changed defensive schemes at FSU from size and power to size, power and speed….it put most of the college football world on its heels. No one had seen anything like what we were doing, offenses were completely overwhelmed at the snap of the ball. This worked so well for so long that Mickey just kind of leaned on the philosophy too long (that mixed with not really wanting to coach anymore the last few years).

I am really excited to see the product we put on the field this year. I think we should be bigger (good big, not fat) and very close in speed as a whole to what Mickey viewed as his fastest ever defense. Besides, with the right scheme, players will not need to be as fast, they will be in the right place at the right time and not chasing after someone who has blown past them. Besides, the only thing our speed got us the last few years is a series of blunders through over pursuit and missed assignments.

by diablonole on Jun 28, 2010 10:20 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

JJ Miami

The speed of Jimmy Johnson’s defenses got the attention of FSU. The Noles emulated their speed and capitalized on good coaching (in their day) and raw talent.

by Phyrst on Jun 28, 2010 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for this

It’s clear that teams with bigger D lines who aren’t very fast are the best overall. But are these same sort of defenses (i.e., D’s with D lines who are bigger than normal but not very fast) also the best for defending non-pro style offenses?

Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....

by TLHWG on Jun 28, 2010 10:21 AM EDT reply actions  

Ok...

and do we know what FSU’s total D line weight projects to be in 2010?

Thx

Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....

by TLHWG on Jun 28, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Do you need to distinguish between...

good (muscle) and bad (fat… lots of fat) weight?

Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....

by TLHWG on Jun 28, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think you're right

Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....

by TLHWG on Jun 28, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Jenkins
Dawkins
McDaniel/ McCloud/ Moses
White
Bradham
Smith
Carr

by Bud Elliott on Jun 28, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope for the best for Kendall, but suspect the worst

I don’t think it was purely coaching with him, he lacks the natural football instinct IMO.

Great young man and I hope he proves me wrong.

WAR PAINT OF TN

by Zach_Nole on Jun 28, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

what numbers are you using?

after the spring wieght training?

Bring back Peter Tom- a true Nole!

by FiestaNole on Jun 28, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

With a note that some have changed. Dawkins weighed in today at 280. That’s an 11lb gain since Spring and 22 lbs since last August (he was 258).

by Bud Elliott on Jun 28, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I used Dawkin's latest weight in my calculation

but couldn’t find Smith’s.

I’ll wait for tomorrow.

Thanks.

Bring back Peter Tom- a true Nole!

by FiestaNole on Jun 28, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

What do mean you say you must defend bilaterially?

Obviously, our ends ran themselves out of a lot of plays last year by either crashing toward the center and getting sealed on the backside or by running deep and having the play come underneath them. But this did not seem to be a function of spread v. nonspread. Every good running team we faced (and most of the bad ones) were able to run on us for that reason. I thought that you still need to defend inside out regardless of the offense, because you cannot allow any team to consistently run up the middle or inside the tackles. But you need to be able to do that with your DTs and MLB. If you cannot do that consistently, then you have to crash more players to the center, which exposes you wide. Are you simply saying that the spread teams are paticularly adept at exploiting weaknesses on the outside?

by nolesontop on Jun 28, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

The spread teams make it so that you have to take a more drastic an inside path to defend the inside.

You always defend inside out, but you have to seriously commit when defending the interior if you’re an OLB or a DE against a spread team. One false step and you’re done because of the distance away from the center.

by Bud Elliott on Jun 28, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think I understand what you are saying now.

The DEs and OLBs are more likely to be caught out of position because they have to be prepared to defend both inside and outside on every play. As a result, it puts a premium on DEs and OLBs who can quickly read the play and react accordingly. That is not simply a question of size though. But size becomes important because the offense will have the advantage of knowing which way the play is going. This means that the DEs and OLBs are going to have react and will likely need to fight through the blocks of the offensive players to make the play.

by nolesontop on Jun 28, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

But that is one way in which speed is still needed

along with the size. When FSU was at its peak the DEs could get outside and cover the sweep plays, etc. I am sure under coach Gladden they were better at reading the plays than the last decade, but I imagine they might have guessed wrong at first and still been able to adjust and make good plays due to their speed.

by nolestuff on Jun 28, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Testament to TN

Last summer is when I started reading TN. The statement was made that the 2009 defense was fast but may be the worst defense had fielded in years. “How can that be?” I thought. We have some talent and the great Mickey Andrews. Yes, he doesn’t make adjustments well but he has the track record.
Then the season unfolded. That sold me on TN. As each game was played the words of TN were in the back of my head and it was quite obvious TN was correct.
Thanks TN.

Bring Back PT Willis -------> A True Nole!!!

by Marmaduke1 on Jun 28, 2010 10:25 AM EDT reply actions  

Oh I'm convinced.

When Bud mentioned his forecast of last years defense it triggered my mind of when I became a believer in all things TN.

Bring Back PT Willis -------> A True Nole!!!

by Marmaduke1 on Jun 28, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

One of the things I would really like to see, and I’m well aware of how ambitious it would be, is for the starting weights for all 120 d-1 teams to really see the correlation between size and defensive efficiency. It would also aid in producing a range of weights. The top 20 D’s have a range of nearly 200lbs and FSU last year had weight that was only 2lbs less than one of the top 20 D’s. I’m not disputing that size is important, and I know it’s not the end all be all for defensive efficiency, I just think it would really add to this series.

by mhauer on Jun 28, 2010 10:47 AM EDT reply actions  

I can eventually do that

Wake Forest was 1779 last year, but they weren’t good.

I personally believe it’s necessary but not sufficient. Having a defense of that size won’t make you an elite defense. But not having it really decreases your chances.

by Bud Elliott on Jun 28, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Out of curiosity

What were the weights of teams in other sections (20-40, 50-75, 80-100, etc.) of the defensive standings? It looks like we were within 100 lbs. of 15 of the top 20 defenses. How many heavy defenses were NOT in the Top 20?

This isn’t to call these findings into question – I don’t think it’s a coincidence, for example, that three of the top non-BCS teams are listed in the top 20 weighted defenses… I’m just wondering if those figures could help us analyze what other factors separate these defenses from the rest of the pack. After all, with our weight gains, I suspect we’ll be a lot closer to the weights above than we were last year (I guess I’ll see tomorrow, eh?) – but I don’t think we’ll vault into the top 20 just yet.

Anyway, good read.

by Invictus13 on Jun 28, 2010 10:52 AM EDT reply actions  

I think Clemson wasted their size last year. They looked bad against GT, both times.

But, UNC, Miami and Iowa (all with big front 7s) held GT under 5.5 ypp. I think FSU “held” GT to under 9 ypp…

by coonhound on Jun 28, 2010 10:56 AM EDT reply actions  

1st time Clemson's defense was great against GT!

6.1 allowed in Ga Tech. Remember Tech had two huge special teams plays (the pass by the kicker) and the pooch punt returned for TD

by Bud Elliott on Jun 28, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'll agree that the score did not reflect the Defensive output, but certainly Clemson's D underperformed

In the second half, they were far more efficient, if I recall correctly. But, they couldn’t slow GT down in the first 30.

I only bring that up because GT seemed to have the most trouble with big front 7s all year long. Clemson was the only one that GT perfomed well against.

by coonhound on Jun 28, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

A good observation that makes sense

Diverting the angle of the play is huge against that offense. This isn’t accomplished by running around a block.

>>---l>

by DKfromVA on Jun 28, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

That makes sense.

If I recall GT had one big play for like 70 yards in the first half and other than that they were shut down for most of the game. But that 70 yarder still counts, no doubt.

by Bud Elliott on Jun 28, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yup, it was Allen I think on a option down the right sideline.

Very beginning of the game, I remember it being 80+ yards.
After the early flurry, the Clemson defense played tremendous for the rest of the game.

WAR PAINT OF TN

by Zach_Nole on Jun 28, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Biggest Problems Gt has faced

Have all come against big(and talented) D’s, BC and LSU in 08 stick out and Iowa this past year. Having a DT who can hold the center at the point of attack and not allow him to swoop to a linebacker other DT is HUGE to stopping the option

by millsGT49 on Jun 28, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

They also hate it when two undersized DTs powerbomb the center.

It’s a foolproof plan!

>>>-----------;;;-->CP7 for Heisman>>>-----------;;;-->

by RollNole5 on Jun 28, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

How big is Miami's defense?

I remember they had one fat DT (did not seem overly athletic, but I may be biased) out there against GT, but was not sure everyone else they had were that big. Still Miami did well against GT so I am assuming that fat guy shut down the dive play. Is that the gist of it?

by nolestuff on Jun 28, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Awesome job Bud!

As another guy that only caught on to TN toward the end of last season, I never realized how much of an issue size was along the front 7. Thanks for helping us in understanding the nuances of building a roster and how it affects results on the field…

by TonySopraNOLE on Jun 28, 2010 11:00 AM EDT reply actions  

Just curious

how many 1780+lb defenses didn’t make the top 20? Would be interesting to see what % made the top 20 (eg. 18/20) and why those who had the requisite size didn’t make the top 20.

"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher

by RishiM on Jun 28, 2010 11:35 AM EDT reply actions  

Probably a few

It’s not a guarantee. It’s like necessary but not sufficient.

Under a certain size: really unlikely you’ll be a best 20 defense.

Over that size: not a guarantee.

by Bud Elliott on Jun 28, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bud Elliot, valley girl.

Shot a Gator in Jean Shorts just to watch him die.

by AMFKNole on Jun 28, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Doesn't seem to be much separation between the top 20:

Top 50lbs (1850+) Count 4
Top 50 lbs (1850+) Avg. Rank 7.25

1800 + Count 11
1800+ Avg. Rank 10.45
1800- Count 9
1800- Avg. Rank 10.55

Bottom 50 lbs (1786-) Count 4
Bottom 50 lbs (1786-) Avg. Rank 9.75

Grace I call Your name, Oh won’t Your smile fall over me, I’m cracked and dry on hands and knees, Oh sweet grace rain down on me I need You grace
-Phil Wickham

by FSUvaFan on Jun 28, 2010 12:14 PM EDT reply actions  

It is true. BSU 1781 is pretty close however, I wonder if there is anything unique about BSU that could explain it, but the rankings used are supposed to drown out poor SOS, etc.

Grace I call Your name, Oh won’t Your smile fall over me, I’m cracked and dry on hands and knees, Oh sweet grace rain down on me I need You grace
-Phil Wickham

by FSUvaFan on Jun 28, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

* TCU i mean.

Grace I call Your name, Oh won’t Your smile fall over me, I’m cracked and dry on hands and knees, Oh sweet grace rain down on me I need You grace
-Phil Wickham

by FSUvaFan on Jun 28, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

coincidence Im sure.

Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole

by Miaminole on Jun 28, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am not convinced

and I am bigger than you so there is nothing you can do about it !!! :)

by 93noleman on Jun 28, 2010 3:28 PM EDT reply actions  

BUD, great article,

I’m greedy though, I still remember the speed technique of old squashing the rb or qb before he had time to throw. Im my ideal defense we COMBINE size, speed, coaching and(importantly) attitude. I saw one of the four last year.I still remember some of our games against giant hulking slowwwwwwwwwww defenses. Imho we need team speed also.( and i believe we are getting there ) By the way, has anyone a chart on how the 20 fastest defenses did last year? Also, please, consider who some of the listed teams play. I know the old refrain, you can only play the teams on your schedule……….but i’d much prefer facing say uconn to say Bama.

by OLDNOLE60 on Jun 28, 2010 3:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Also, please, consider who some of the listed teams play. I know the old refrain, you can only play the teams on your schedule……….but i’d much prefer facing say uconn to say Bama.

These are adjusted for schedule so that is already factored in.

The technique of old is obsolete because offenses now scheme for it. Discipline and leverage are at a premium now.

by Bud Elliott on Jun 28, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Football always comes down to who can control the LOS

So it’s an arm race for the best size+speed talent.

Since the spread offense was developed in response, really, to Mickey Andrew’s man-to-man scheme (incredible against non-spread teams), the next major advancement should be on the defensive scheme. My guess is that some type of 3 down linemen front (3-3-5 / 3-5-3, 3-4…) will combat the spread. You just gotta be unbelievably stout with your 3 DL to play that against spread O’s with good offensive lines.

FSU Football 2010: "Everyone gets a playbook."

by ricobert1 on Jun 28, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

You basically gotta have all 3 guys be able to take on doubleteams

and not lose ground. (Think NFL lines like Pittsburgh, NE…)

FSU Football 2010: "Everyone gets a playbook."

by ricobert1 on Jun 28, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah but

Those speed rushers will never get there unless at least one of the dt draws a double team. Even then you have to be big enough to blow up the running back who sped over there to chip on his route. 228 wont get it done.

by Ponder This on Jun 28, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think basketball provides the best analogy

being tall doesn’t make you a good basketball player – but the best teams are the tallest – Boston and LA are good examples

by 93noleman on Jun 28, 2010 4:25 PM EDT reply actions  

exactly. look when you have skilled Length there's nothing more deadly in the NBA

Look at the Lakers. Nobody could stack up to them all playoffs. Even the Celtics were getting murdered on the Off. Glass.

The Funk Phenomenon.

by willdabeast on Jun 28, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Say what?

I’m not sure I’m following you, or maybe you are not following this thread very well.

Cedat Fortuna Peritis

by spear72 on Jun 28, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

*See below

Bring back Korey Mangum — a true Nole!

by SoCalNole on Jun 28, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lighter means faster!

Don’t you know that the 2009 defense was the fastest we’ve ever had? NOW we know why!

Mike Martin should go coach Hawaii. Then he could have all the poi's he ever wanted - MattDNole

by shonole on Jun 28, 2010 5:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Did that make you concerned last year - perhaps not as concerned as we should have been

its like asking what a girl looks like and being told she has a great personality.

So Mickey: How good is the defense this year? – They are the fastest I have ever had

by 93noleman on Jun 29, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great stuff, but...

I don’t get the comments about Bama’s D making UF’s offense look pedestrian. UF’s offense did just fine in that game (if my math is right, 6.9 yards per play).

I’d say Bama’s O made UF’s offense look pedestrian — by keeping them off the field.

by mcg3934 on Jun 30, 2010 7:36 AM EDT reply actions  

Very interesting...

Bama – 490 yards on 71 plays (6.9 YPP)
UF – 335 yards on only 49 plays (6.8 YPP)

TOP:
Bama – 39:37 – UF – 20:23

However, UF went only 4-11 on 3rd down conversions (36%), 13% below their seasonal average (49%). [Note that versus conference opponents, UF’s 3rd down conversion rate was 39%.]

FSU Football 2010: "Everyone gets a playbook."

by ricobert1 on Jun 30, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

In other words

what we already know. They play bad teams out of conference.

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Jun 30, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kirby Smart...

Kirby Smart got a lot of credit for stifling UF’s D last December. Kirby should probably kick back a portion of his raise to Bama’s offensive coordinator for making him look so good.

by mcg3934 on Jun 30, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh wow

Where’d you get those stats from? Did you calculate them by hand?

FSU Football 2010: "Everyone gets a playbook."

by ricobert1 on Jun 30, 2010 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting note about Iowa

I’ve never ever seen the words “exotic blitzes” associated with Iowa. An exotic blitz from Norm Parker, Iowa’s DC, would be bringing more than one linebacker. It induces paroxysms of awe when we bring a defensive back. The vast majority of our QB pressure comes from the front 4, who generate it from a) being very fast and strong and b) stunting often.

Brunettes not fighter jets

by rockyh on Jun 30, 2010 11:37 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, very fast. The d-linemen ran sprints as trackmen in high school.

You flatter the Iowans with your ranking but it’s strength, discipline and speed, not size. A lot of Big Ten teams put Big Guys on the field. Just ranking by weight, Iowa is kinda small in that context.

The Iowa DTs are a) a former fullback, going about 255 (he played DT as a backup as a frosh, at 235), and b) a big guy going 311, but even he is a former TE, Kansas 100 meter man. The DEs make tackles in the backfield on runs away. Both can run with the LBs. The weakside LB is required in this scheme to cover slots on wheel routes, and the last two are in the NFL. The mike is expected to close down the deep middle (Tampa 2 style) and the last one (who is in the NFL) had 5 or 6 ints.

Iowa doesn’t blitz, usually, until around the third quarter when there’s a big third down and the offense. But that’s anomalous and its all about controlling the LOS with four.

I think the big shift in defensive football is keyed by guys like Saban and Parker who insist on three things:

a. positional discipline (playing team ball)
b. leverage (keep the ball in front of you)
c. tackling efficiency.

It’s prosaic basic stuff but so is midwestern culture. I suppose the ACC, which has been sending its DC’s to trail Parker around Iowa City looking to copy what he did to GT, will catch on soon enough. The Big Ten-slow meme has run its course. Ask Oregon how slow OSU is.

Mr. Boh Knows ...

by Bellanca on Jun 30, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

They are definitely one of the biggest in the big 10
You flatter the Iowans with your ranking but it’s strength, discipline and speed, not size. A lot of Big Ten teams put Big Guys on the field. Just ranking by weight, Iowa is kinda small in that context.

I’ll show you the Big 10 soon, but Iowa is definitely one of the biggest.

The Iowa DTs are a) a former fullback, going about 255 (he played DT as a backup as a frosh, at 235), and b) a big guy going 311, but even he is a former TE, Kansas 100 meter man. The DEs make tackles in the backfield on runs away. Both can run with the LBs. The weakside LB is required in this scheme to cover slots on wheel routes, and the last two are in the NFL. The mike is expected to close down the deep middle (Tampa 2 style) and the last one (who is in the NFL) had 5 or 6 ints.

I have the DTs as Ballard and Klug at 297 and 270. Is that incorrect?

Iowa doesn’t blitz, usually, until around the third quarter when there’s a big third down and the offense. But that’s anomalous and its all about controlling the LOS with four.

I agree. Should not have said exotic blitzes earlier.

I think the big shift in defensive football is keyed by guys like Saban and Parker who insist on three things:

a. positional discipline (playing team ball)
b. leverage (keep the ball in front of you)
c. tackling efficiency.

It’s prosaic basic stuff but so is midwestern culture. I suppose the ACC, which has been sending its DC’s to trail Parker around Iowa City looking to copy what he did to GT, will catch on soon enough. The Big Ten-slow meme has run its course. Ask Oregon how slow OSU is.

I completely agree with A&B.
I don’t think OSU is slow. I do think they are quicker than Iowa, but that’s just me.

Explain what you mean by tackling efficiency.

What Iowa did to GTech wasn’t revolutionary IMO. GT couldn’t handle Clayborn and Iowa is very disciplined. They also had 4 weeks to prepare, which really really hurts GTech.

by Bud Elliott on Jun 30, 2010 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're right.

Iowa had four weeks to prepare for GT, but GT only had one week to prepare for Iowa? Advantage Iowa, I guess. But I thought both teams had the same interval in which to prepare, for some reason. Given the vanilla, unchanging aspect of Iowa defense (you can game plan Iowa by looking at tape from 2002), GT was supposed to run rampant, especially because they’re so fast, being from the south and all.

One key to the flexbone is stuffing the dive with your tackles (not wasting your mike, who is then free to make the tackle). That’s only possible if the tackles are extremely active. In the second half, the GT big rb was running backwards; he almost ran 15 yards into his own end zone once. Both DEs played assignment, positional football and Clayborn is tough, but it might have been Klug, Ballard and Angerer who blew up and undressed that offense. The best back in the Big Ten is John Clay of Wiscy. He’s as big as Klug. He ran for 75, then was knocked silly and left the game. cf. Brophy for a good video breakdown on how Iowa collapsed the GT flexbone. Everyone else in the ACC is watching that tape.

Anyway, Klug played around 255 last year and Ballard, I don’t know, maybe 280-90. Supposedly Ballard is up to 311 as of this spring. (Ballard was on a state champion sprint relay team in high school.) (Iowa has a superior S&C coach.) Iowa doesn’t play fat boys so I suspect that it would be a stretch to see Klug at 270. This year I would expect Iowa to give up about 30-40 lbs per man (average) on the line. Wiscy will likely start 4-5 310+ guys on the O-line. Binns is an SEC-style DE at maybe 250.

OSU is a little quicker than Iowa, most noticeably in the d-backfield. But Iowa lost that game because their O-line was the only one all year to control the LOS. Iowa wins or loses with four men controlling, or not, the LOS. If you can do that, control the LOS with 4, the numerical advantage of any run-based spread (i.e., the QB being another hat to cover) disappears, and the linebackers have their way.

“Tackling efficiency” is just referring, again, to old school stuff. Iowa does not miss tackles; everybody wraps and drives. You don’t get on the field unless you wrap and drive, including the DBs. Nobody dives at people’s knees, etc. The safeties never play spring ball; they have shoulder surgery every winter. Parker is an amusing, affable sort, but he doesn’t play pussies who won’t tackle like it’s 1965.

Assignment football, which requires discipline and a committed team aspect, beats the option. GT has a good, creative option game, but it’s still the option, and a good team that plays smart is going to a) kill the QB every play; b) stuff the center and blow up the dive; c) force them to air it out. If the ACC defensive coordinators don’t know how to stop Johnson yet, it’s on them. It’s not any mystery scheme. It’s the option. You don’t recruit your way to stopping the option, you coach your way to stopping it.

The last thing I will say is that true football speed involves so many things other than running really fast on a prepared track in your underwear. But even there, the combine figures don’t show a speed deficit for the Big Ten at the top decile. Now that the Big Ten both runs and hits, and plays sound disciplined ball (I exclude Michigan, of course, they’re trying to play D like it’s the Big East) I think things will tighten up dramatically between north and south. If I’m not mistaken Iowa is 3-1 vs. the SEC the past 10 years — and Iowa still plays walk-ons from little Iowa towns. Football is a team sport which means that all 11 guys have to be in their assigned spots playing their assigned roles — and white guys from Iowa playing linebacker can also dunk with two hands behind their heads. The speed deficit thing is today a red herring, and size per se is useless without awareness and agility.

Mr. Boh Knows ...

by Bellanca on Jul 1, 2010 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great post

My point about having time to prepare is something we’ve seen with GT. The teams that got them with 2 weeks or in a bowl have had more time to prep for such an unconventional offense. Moreso than GT has an advantage of practicing against a traditional defense with an additional week.

If you want the GT-FSU tape I have it. Would be a humor thing for you to watch, no doubt. It was sad for us at the time.

by Bud Elliott on Jul 1, 2010 4:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Give him the tapes from the year before

Then he can see how DT’s are REALLY supposed to defend the option.

>>---l>

by DKfromVA on Jul 1, 2010 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

*facepalm*

FSU Football 2010: "Everyone gets a playbook."

by ricobert1 on Jul 1, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  


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