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Sizing Up The Stoutest Front Sevens In College Football For 2010

Welcome back to another installment of the "Defensive Size Matters" series.  Yesterday we looked at the top 20 defenses in the country from last season and cataloged their front-7 weights.  The results were very clear.  18 of the 20 best defenses had a front-7 (DL+LB) weight of more than 1780 lbs.  All of the best 10 were over the mark.  Having size in the front-7 will not guarantee a great defense.  Certainly there are examples of defenses having good size and failing to perform at an elite level.  But not having size is almost a guarantee that a defense will not be among the 20 best in college football.  That is to say that having a sizable front-7 is a necessary but not sufficient condition to having an elite defense.  We also looked at why Florida State's defense was not nearly as big as it could have or should have been last season. 

Today we're going to take things more in-depth.  We'll start by showing that small defenses do not do as well as large defenses.  After the jump, we'll look at how the elite defenses in college football have changed this year.  Then, we'll break down the changes by conference.  And finally, we'll look at how FSU can grow by 60 lbs in a single off-season.

2009_acc___sec_defenses_with_front-7_weights_large

Our readers suggested that we look at the size of all college defenses to determine how many defenses that did not make the best 20 were as big as those that did make the best 20.  We did not have time to do that.  Instead. we will look at the ACC and the SEC.  10 of college football's best 20 defenses came from those two conferences. 

Please refer to yesterday's article (linked at the top of the page) to see where in the best 20 these defenses fell and for a comment on each.  The chart at left shows the accurate weights for the starting front-7 of each SEC & ACC program.  Official media guides, magazines, and depth charts were used to compile the information.  In situations where two players started a significant number of games at the same position, an average of the two was used.  

As you can see from the chart at left, the conferences had 13 defenses that weighed in at more than 1786 lbs.  A staggering eight of those ended up being among the 20 best defenses in the country!  On the right side of the ledger you find teams like Maryland, Duke, and Kentucky, all of whom have big players, but not elite-level bigger players.  Even so, Maryland's defense was respectable last year until it lost multiple starters in the secondary.  Georgia Tech similarly had major injury issues.  Georgia had plenty of size and NFL talent.  It finished among the best 40 defenses, but rightfully fired its defensive coordinator as the defense continued to backslide for the third consecutive year.

Then we have the teams below the 1787 mark.  Only two were among the best 20 defenses.  Nine were not among the best 20 defenses.  It's probably helpful to show this as a percentage: 

62% of ACC/SEC defenses over 1787 lbs made the best 20 defenses in college football.  Only 22% of ACC/SEC defenses under 1787 lbs made the best 20 defenses in college football. 

One might argue that the line drawing is arbitrary here.  After all, just yesterday we drew the line at 1780 lbs.  Let's use that standard instead to keep things consistent:

50% of ACC/SEC defenses over 1780 lbs were among the best 20 defenses.  Only 25% of ACC/SEC defenses under 1780 lbs were among the best 20 defenses.  This seems pretty cut and dry.  Having a defense over 1780 lbs doubled a team's chance of fielding a best 20 defense!

Inside, we'll look at how the elite defenses in college football have changed this year.  Then, we'll break down the changes by conference.  And finally, we'll look at how FSU can grow by 60 lbs in a single off-season.  Click "continue reading"

Star-divide

2009_to_2010_elite_defense_size_changes_large

Now let's look at the changes in size of the elite defenses in college football.  Everyone wants to know what team(s) might falter, what teams will might maintain its position, and what team will take that next step to potentially dominate college football even more so than it did last season.

Several teams project to be at least 10 lbs larger this season.  Ole Miss, by virtue of adding some defensive linemen and bigger backers to its roster leads the group with a 39-lb gain.  Ohio State launches itself from barely above the threshold to significantly above the threshold by swapping a 240 lb DE for a 260 lb model.  Clemson pulls a similar trick and projects to be 26 lbs bigger as it swaps a very light pass rushing end for one that can play the run and the pass.  TCU and Miami both distance themselves from the 1780 threshold by some personnel moves and continued growth of young players.  We echo our critique of Virginia Tech from yesterday.  The Hokies are still very small and though they again dodge the best passing attack in the conference (FSU), it's unlikely they will stay in the top twenty for a second straight year with such a diminutive (and now less experienced) bunch.  

In the middle, Oklahoma, Boise, Iowa, and UNC all return most of their defenses intact and the changes in size should have little effect.  

On the bottom end, however, is where this gets really interesting.  Even with the return of Mark Herzlich, expect Boston College's defense to regress a bit as it is even smaller this year.  Nebraska loses DT Suh and falls from 15 lbs above the threshold to 5 lbs below.  Something tells us they will still be good.  Ditto the Gators, who saw the second largest drop, but whom were so large that the enormous weight loss didn't drop them outside the threshold! 

But three teams could see serious drops in production.  South Carolina (65 lbs lighter), Utah (-81), and LSU (-114!) all underwent changes that will undoubtedly change the way they play defense.  And those changes are born out of necessity, not luxury.  It is going to be interesting to see how South Carolina plays without a 280+ lb defensive and  a 250+ lb linebacker.  How will Utah adjust to not having monsters on the defensive line?  And what has happened to LSU's defensive line recruiting?  The Tigers lose two monsters in the middle and a talented defensive end, along with two starting linebackers.  But LSU's inability to replace those guys with anyone of size is shocking.  Our guess is that LSU goes with someone other than the slight Lazarius Livingston at defensive tackle.  Or equineroids.  Those could work as well.

At this point, it is important to note that some programs have vastly better strength and conditioning than other programs.  The weights listed here are Spring weights.  But they are Spring weights for every team, to keep it fair.

 

Now let's look at the projected weights for the ACC & SEC.  I've combined them to show that the SEC is not at all bigger than the ACC.  See for yourself:

2010_acc_sec_defenses_front_7_large

Let's address the 800 lb gorilla in the room.  And from the looks of it, you might think Mississippi State has somehow snuck that Gorilla onto the roster.  They didn't, but the Bulldogs came close.  State's defensive line has tackles of 345 and 300, along with ends of 285 and 255.  They also sport two 'backers of 245+.  This looks like the biggest defensive in college football and all eyes will be on Starkville.  Can the Bulldogs' defense go from about 55th best to one of the twenty best?  They certainly should improve. 

The 3-4 defense is king in the peach state as both Georgia and Georgia Tech are switching to the defense.  Georgia actually gets a bit smaller, but losing two all-conference types at defensive tackle will do that to a program.  Georgia Tech switches to a 3-4 defense and gets 24 lbs larger.  That added size could help under defensive mastermind Al Groh, although miracles should not be expected in his first season.

Arkansas and Aubrun are two western division teams who might see significant improvement on defense as both move from the cusp of the threshold to significantly above it.  The SEC West will have an astounding 5 of 6 members over 1800 lbs this season (assuming Arkansas picks up two lbs from its S&C program). 

Meanwhile back in the Carolinas, NC State gets back linebacker Nate Irving (car wreck '09), and should be much better against the run this year, despite massive personnel losses.  Wake Forest loses both defensive tackles and doesn't have any depth to speak of at the position.  That defense has come a long way since its amazing top-five unit in 2008.  Unfortunately for Deamon Deacs fans, it has come the wrong way. 

Perhaps we can now dispel the myth that Boston College's defense is really big?  It was huge in 2008.  Now, however, that is just not the case. 

If you want an awesome trivia question for your friends, ask them who the two lightest defenses are between the ACC & SEC.  We bet you they won't name one, much less correctly guess both South Carolina and LSU.  Ellis Johnson and John Chavis will have to do tremendous coaching jobs this season if those two units have a chance at remaining in the best 20.

 

Finally, let's look at FSU.  The chart above shows that FSU will be 40 lbs larger than it was last year.  That's great.  What it can't account for, however, is off-season growth.  I noted above that every team will experience off-season growth.  That is true.  But Florida State is different.  The 'Noles haven't had a decent strength program in years.  Now that Jimbo Fisher is the head coach isn't being rejected by coaches above him, he has implemented an elite strength program, quadrupling the number of strength coaches, adding nutritionists, psychologists, mental conditioning coaches, speed coaches, agility coaches, and flexibility instructors.  As we've profiled here, the results have been nothing short of remarkable.  Florida State now has a program that it can be proud of when comparing itself to Alabama, LSU, UF, and Nebraska.  No, one off-season of strength training in a real program will not afford the upperclassmen athlete the same gains another athlete achieved in three years at a program like Bama or Florida, but this upperclassmen will likely have a better single off-season than the athlete who has been in a program for 2-3 years, because the upperclassmen new to the program has greater gains to make before he plateaus.  I'll show why this matters in a second.  First, though, let's look at FSU's likely starting defense with weights from the Spring, and weights that we project FSU to play at based on progress already made over the Summer.

You're reading that correctly.  FSU's strength program was so ineffective that it's entirely probable that these defenders will make these incredible strength gains in a single off-season.  In fact, we project to be even bigger than 1800 lbs once camp starts, but every player loses some weight during camp.  We feel that 1800 lbs is very reasonable and conservative for this FSU defense to play at this season.  Here's why:

End of Spring Conservative Opening Day Estimate +/-
DE Markus White 262 266 4
DE Brandon Jenkins 234 244 10
DT Jacobi McDaniel 287 295 8
DT Everett Dawkins 269 279 10
LB Nigel Bradham 241 241 0
LB Kendall Smith 235 235 0
LB Nigel Carr 231 235 4
Total 1759 1795 36 lbs

We've recently learned that defensive tackle Everett Dawkins weighed in at 280 lbs as of yesterday.  While we don't know if this was with or without shoes, we do know that EDawk94 does not wear 11 lb shoes.  The bottom line is that Dawkins has gained 11 lbs of muscle since Spring practice.  Defensive end Brandon Jenkins has put on at least 8 lbs we were told a few weeks ago.  Markus White is already at 270 lbs.  Nigel Carr hit 240 lbs 3 weeks ago.  All Bradham and Smith need to do is maintain.

And that's the really interesting thing here.  Most of these guys are already at or within a lb or two of their playing weights!  All they need to do, with 5 weeks of training left (about 1/3rd of the program left to go) is add muscle at a very conservative pace so that they don't fall below their playing weight goal come opening day. 

We stress that this is a conservative projection.  We have not even included either 300 lb defensive tackle (Moses McCray and Anthony "Amp" McCloud).  And some close to the program believe the strength gains are being underreported.  Because our above estimate was quite conservative, let's field an aggressive progression:

Aggressive Projection
DE Markus White 274
DE Brandon Jenkins 248
DT Moses McCray/ Amp McCloud 302
DT Jacobi McDaniel 296
LB Nigel Bradham 245
LB Kendall Smith 235
LB Nigel Carr 240
Total 1840

This aggressive projection might not be as unrealistic as you might think.  Several of our authors believe this to be what FSU will actually play at this year.  The real size of the 2010 FSU defense won't be known for another 5 weeks.  In our estimation, however, it will be somewhere between 1795 lbs and 1840 lbs.  1815 sounds like a really nice number and would put FSU in the top third of the SEC or ACC. 

Whether FSU hits its low end or high end of the projection, the strength gains made under this program cannot be denied.  And while it will likely take two seasons for this unit to become elite, FSU can absolutely expect to return to competency in year one under new defensive coordinator Mark Stoops.  Florida State's starting line and linebackers will be at least 60 lbs and potentially as many as 105 lbs heavier than they were in 2009.  Perhaps FSU will become the poster child for the "don't sacrifice size for speed" argument?  All eyes will certainly be on Tallahassee to find out.

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Yes I did get up at 5am

To read this and it was worth it. And I am drinking coffee, not kool aid.

by so.fulnole on Jun 29, 2010 5:15 AM EDT reply actions  

koolaid flavored coffee for me... all the way to okla game

where my cup likely springs a tiny,easily repairable leak

Giddy-up!

by truecolors on Jun 29, 2010 7:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Miss. St.

Anyone know how talented their front 7 are? Is this a Maryland of 2009 type situation?

WAR PAINT OF TN

by Zach_Nole on Jun 29, 2010 6:49 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Guessing they didn't have the depth of UF or Bama

But they were leaps and bounds better than FSU.

FSU Opponents Rushing avg: 5.39
FSU Opponents per play 6.7

MissSt: Opponents Rushing avg 3.96
MissSt: Opponents per play 5.7

Can Tell MSU had problems against the pass more than the run. Not great numbers for them…but still. If we knocked off a whole yard per play this year I would be pretty happy. Knocking off a yard and a half rushing would be just super.

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Jun 29, 2010 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

They are more talented than Maryland for sure.

The big question is how much their 345lb Juco Nose plays. Even if he doesn’t start, though, they only drop 40.

by Bud Elliott on Jun 29, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Can't wait to see what we play at

The added weight and technique that our line is learning should at least help to slow down other teams’ running game. Hopefully we can force enough 3rd and longs that opponents have to punt more. I am hoping for punts more than sacks or INTs.

by osceolafan2.0 on Jun 29, 2010 7:24 AM EDT reply actions  

more third and longs will lead to all three

punts, sacks, and INTs. Third and longs will lead many QBs to stand in the pocket looking for something to open further down field and to force some throws that aren’t open beyond the first down mark.

by Wild@Heart Nole on Jun 29, 2010 7:29 AM EDT reply actions  

sorry

don’t know how that didn’t end up as a reply to what was above – hope the error doesn’t repeat again

by Wild@Heart Nole on Jun 29, 2010 7:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wow great artice BUD

I have been saying since the coaching changes that this team very could jump 60+ spots to a top 30 D. HOOKTHEKOOLAIDTOMYVEINS!!!!!!

FSU Football: United We Stand

by stevegrizzle on Jun 29, 2010 7:49 AM EDT reply actions  

Top 30 is an unrealistic expectation....but top-50 is not.

I expect top-50…..and hope/believe the FSU D will be top-30 caliber by the end of the season.

It’s a damn shame that CP7 will be in the NFL before FSU has a dominant defense again(2011/2012)….imagine what his offense could have done with a dominating defense backing them up.

Oderint Dum Metuant

by DRusso97 on Jun 29, 2010 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

I know......just saying it's too bad Ponder won't have that on his side.

Manuel, Trickett, and Coker will all benefit tremendously from it….

Oderint Dum Metuant

by DRusso97 on Jun 29, 2010 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

hopefully we can all remember Ponder with the Wards and the Weinkes; as a guy who brought us back.

…a Heisman would be nice, too.

by NolenRyan on Jun 29, 2010 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

He won't win enough games to get the hardware.....

…But an invite to NY would be nice!

You can lose multiple games & still win the heisman ONLY if you play QB for a team that is balls-deep in CBS/ESPN’s throat.

Oderint Dum Metuant

by DRusso97 on Jun 29, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

FSU might be balls deep in ESPN's throat

with a good showing this season. Its a proven fact that FSU draws a lot of viewers and ESPN has already been showing a lot of love to us ever since Jimbo started implementing changes and brought in a top 10 class. If we have an 8+ wins season we will be getting a lot of love from them.

Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole

by BS37FSU on Jun 29, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

It will take 2 consecutive top-10 showing to prove that FSU is "back".

Once that happens….they will be back to tossing Seminole salad.

Oderint Dum Metuant

by DRusso97 on Jun 29, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I like the mental image......

when you consider SOME of the chicks working for ESPN.

That being said, i don’t see us blowing out OU.

......and let the paramedics sort 'em out!

by Scalpemall on Jun 29, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

and Len Pasquarelli

Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!

by RaysnNoles on Jun 29, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see your Beano Cook

And raise you Dick Vitale and Mike Golic

by osceolafan2.0 on Jun 29, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just threw up

Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole

by BS37FSU on Jun 30, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, no, no. Look at the turkey gullet on Beano cook. Watch some video, it just flops around. Now imagine he’s not wearing clothes. There’s no way that either of those is a raise.

by evenflow58 on Jun 30, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dr. Jack Ramsey and Lou Holtz

Christian Ponder: Your favorite quarterback's favorite quarterback.

by Jamil Dawson on Jun 30, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ultimate raise:

Skip Bayless.

Not because of gross body dysmorphia……but only because his insane ego leads me to believe that he has a tiny penis.

(with really saggy balls)

((Like REALLY saggy))

(((Like—be careful or you’ll sit on them)))

Oderint Dum Metuant

by DRusso97 on Jul 1, 2010 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

but top 50

Is still hopeful. This defense is going be learning on the fly. Granted, it will be nice to see the green playbook finally become outdated for our acc opponents. (waterboy ref) I expect to be “playing” like top 50 by the latter part of the season. I hope it is like top 25 though, but my koolaid supply has dwindled over the years.

by Ponder This on Jun 29, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is promising.

I agree that we shouldn’t expect elite this season, but 2011 should be a good year for us. I am also curious to see what happens with LSU this season… their drop (likely) won’t be as catastrophic as ours was, but it could be significant.

Thanks for taking the time to do the ACC and SEC teams, Bud. I think that was a great way to address some of the interest in a wider pool of teams, without needing to do all 120.

by Invictus13 on Jun 29, 2010 8:29 AM EDT reply actions  

LSU reminds me a lot of us in the middle part of the decade

LSU has a lot of talent that they are squandering, like we did. They are weak along the lines, like we were (their top OL was recently given a grade of “undraftable!”) They are not recruiting well along the lines the last 2 years compared to how they did under Saban. They have no offensive identity. They can’t run the ball even pounding it at people much anymore. They have incredible athletes who can pull out a win any time you don’t expect it (like we could).

by Bud Elliott on Jun 29, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

He’s certifilably insane. I don’t think you’d hear many LSU fans (those that pay attention at least) complain if Miles got goned.

by evenflow58 on Jun 29, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

LSU

Miles is a clown and is about to get exposed big-time. Read his answers in this roundtable discussion, compared to the other coaches:

http://www.sportingnews.com/college-football/article/2010-06-27/sec-football-coaches-talk-about-what-makes-their-league-best

Moron.

by wnc_nole on Jun 29, 2010 8:46 AM EDT reply actions  

Off the subject

But Spurrier seriously throws Doug Johnson under the bus in a response to one of those questions. Mentions him by name even, when he didn’t have to. Crazy.

by LouC on Jun 29, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great read!

thanks! small editorial "without a 280+ lb defensive and and " should probably be “end and”

by StM on Jun 29, 2010 9:59 AM EDT reply actions  

I know it's outside the purview of the Front 7 weight,

but it’s interesting to note how much weight our DBs have put on, as well. They’ll be called upon to make some tackles underneath this year.

FSU Football 2010: "Everyone gets a playbook."

by ricobert1 on Jun 29, 2010 10:56 AM EDT reply actions  

What I really like......

is the fact that our total weight stays the same or even goes up a bit when the back-ups are in the game….250 lb linebackers Luc and Williams….300 pound DT Mcray/Mcloud ….nice depth there without much of a drop off.

by hardhitter5050 on Jun 29, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

Last year it did not.

Dropping from McCray/ Mincey (call it 590 total) to Thacker/ Steward (what, 550 total!?) was big.

by Bud Elliott on Jun 29, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fisher trying for a Saban-style 4-3 from 2003

This year, the only 3-4 team on the best 20 list was Bama. However, Cal was excellent in ’08, and Ohio State has increasingly used more 3-4.

I am excited to see UGA and GTech switch to the 3-4. I think it will help smooth out some of the inefficiency in recruiting. You’d never see only a single NFL team run the 3-4. It’s always multiples because if only one team does it, they have the market cornered on a completely different type NFL player.

Fisher at FSU is building something that looks similar to the 2003 LSU team (Nick’s 4-3, not 3-4).

2003 LSU:

DE Marquise Hill 297
DE Marcus Spears 295
DT Lavalias 290
DT Williams 290
LB Alexander 230
LB Turner 255
LB Vaughn 225

That’s 1880 from a 4-3, which is pretty stellar. In 2011 FSU looks like

DE Everett Dawkins/ Bjoern Werner/ Jr. 6-2/285 Spartanburg, SC (Byrnes) 4 stars
DE Brandon Jenkins Jr. 6-3/256 Tallahassee, FL (Florida High) 4 stars
DT Anthony McCloud Jr. 6-2/306 Thomasville, GA (Thomas County Central) 3 stars
DT Jacobbi McDaniel Jr. 6-0/295 Greenville, FL (Madison County) 5 stars
LB Nigel Bradham Sr. 6-2/245 Crawfordville, FL (Wakulla) 5 stars
LB Nigel Carr Sr. 6-2/241 Jacksonville, FL (First Coast) 4 stars
LB Jeff Luc FR*/ SO. 6-0/251 Port St. Lucie, FL (Treasure Coast) 4 stars

Which is also… 1880.

I started this project because I was complaining about how small FSU was in the front 7 and how this all-speed idea was really stupid. People told me we weren’t smaller than everyone else, so I had to list it out.

by Bud Elliott on Jun 29, 2010 11:23 AM EDT reply actions  

The funny thing is

that the 2011 projected front 4 may be lighter than their backups with players like DE Darious Cummings, DT Moses McCray, DT Cameron Erving, DT Demonte McAllister (not sure about 2nd team WDE yet).

Also with players like Christian Jones, Holmes A., Telvin Smith (I think he’s going to really benefit from our Strength and Conditioning program and me 230+ 1 yr from now) and potentially Tony Steward at LB, we may be just as big (as a whole) with the backups there as well.

I say Vic and co. are the off-season MVPs (forget this awarding it to a player business). :)

"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher

by RishiM on Jun 29, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

Vic for president.

How much do you think Cummings can hold?

by Bud Elliott on Jun 29, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

When I saw his pic last summer

he looked to be very wide, so I though 280-285 easy (end product). Not sure of his weight now, so not sure what a realistic goal for him going into 2011 is/will be.

"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher

by RishiM on Jun 29, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

should claify what I mean by "wide"

both in his hips and especially in shoulders. I see a good “wide base” for him to grow into.

"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher

by RishiM on Jun 29, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

should claify what I mean by "wide"

I meant that he looked like he has a “wide base” in both his hips and shoulders to grow into.

"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher

by RishiM on Jun 29, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

It does not sound like much when it is spread across 7 players.

But if that additional weight is an average of 10 lbs + of muscle per player, it is easy to see why we will be better off.

by nolesontop on Jun 29, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Difference of

280 lb DT’s going up against 300 lb Oline. compared to 290lb DTs to 300 lb oline. Each play adds up. Makes a difference. Makes that Oline work against 10 more lbs (of muscle hopefully) each play. FSU may very well add more than 10 lbs a man if we get in that upper 100 lb range. Would be awesome. I’m just looking forward to defenders actually ENGAGING offensive players. No more spin moves 10 yards from a qb in a 3 step drop Markus White. DO WORK!

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Jun 29, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Another impressive thing...

The rotation won’t suffer a big weight loss. The guys coming in off the bench will be just as big. Our freshmen will be that big.

Hardhitter beat me to the punch.

by chiefnole on Jun 29, 2010 11:32 AM EDT reply actions  

Thats why I believe kids like Cummings, Jacobs, and Erving will ultimately prove to be such important recruits

Young kids who come in the door with the prerequisite size we need. Glad we have a staff that isn’t afraid to do batte on the recruiting trail. Thats what you need in order reel in these kids

by westcoastnolefan on Jun 29, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think a lot of teams will be flipping out..

I have been trying to find some updated weights on our players, and they aren’t out there. Even the big sights (ESPN etc.) have old outdated weights. I only say that because the gains our team is showing is so significant; adding close to 60+ lbs in the off season is WOW!!. That is not due to personal changes in players, but due to development of players. When we show up with a front seven weighing in at a possible 50-100 lbs heavier in good weight…people are going to start freaking out.

This is another reason why I am so optimistic this year. Our defense is going to be sooo different than the last couple of years. Not only do we have a playbook now, but we have people in the right positions, the right players on the field, the right scheme for down and distance, the right techniques being coached, the right “team” approach, good unity and leadership from the coaches, and a S&C program developing these kids to maximize their potential. I know we can’t expect to much, but this is so much more than just having eleven players on the field when the whistle blows. This team has talent…maybe not as much as we did in the 90s, but we are getting closer. Stoops doesn’t come in with the kind of talent he had in Arizona, he comes in with talent that develops into elite-first round type talent.

So, I have to think (pass the kool-aide) that we will be better than seven less points per game. And if that is true, our offense is likely to have the ball more, score more, control the clock more, were down the opposing defense more, make the opposing offense be more aggressive, in-turn making our defense even more productive. We could be amazed at what that means in the W/L columns.

by chiefnole on Jun 29, 2010 11:49 AM EDT reply actions  

with you in general and in detail

but as you my know, most folks on this site don’t like Kool Aid as much as we do :)

Bring back Peter Tom- a true Nole!

by PeachTreeNole on Jun 29, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

yup and in spring game alone ran...

cover 2, cover 3, cover 1 man, man (blitz no safties). Granted it was pardominantly zone, he did all of the above and out of all 3 looks you mentioned. VURY KUNFOOSING for D’s.

Giddy-up!

by truecolors on Jun 29, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess we'll find out...

I’m saying he ran a lot of stack at AZ because that’s what he had to work with…

IMO spring is an indicator that we will see it all regularly now that he has the personel

Giddy-up!

by truecolors on Jun 30, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

How do we match up with our opponents O-Lines?

My bad if this has already been addressed. Fisherade is a hell of a drug.

Christian Ponder: Your favorite quarterback's favorite quarterback.

by Jamil Dawson on Jun 29, 2010 2:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Top group: Florida and BC (both are definitely top 10 nationally)

Then Miami, Oklahoma, Clemson.

The rest are not super impressive to me.

by Bud Elliott on Jun 29, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey Bud

I have a question for ya

A few months ago TM was really divided over the future success of the program. Many were dumbfounded when you expressed very dim expectations for our program (lack of money vs elite schools, SEC vs. ACC recruits, etc.). Some were appalled at your prediction that FSU wouldn’t be in a title game for decades (if I remember correctly). However, since that time I have noticed a considerable change in your outlook. You seem more upbeat in your posts about the program coming together. My question to you is: what changed? Was it the discovery that our defense didn’t have playbooks (and thus weren’t really as behind in terms of talent as many may have thought), the implementation of CJF’s staff, the results of the S&C training, or all of the above? While undoubtedly maintaining your realist perspective, has your outlook indeed changed to a more upbeat tune?

by nbj08 on Jun 29, 2010 4:20 PM EDT reply actions  

just from

 what i recall i think that was the outlook before Jimbo and co took over.

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Jun 29, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Was it?

Or was it immediately after he took over?

My memory is terrible…

by nbj08 on Jun 29, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was a bit down for a bit

But it was in reference to beating UF the way we used to and competing for National titles. It just took a minor tweaking to see the silver lining though. If FSU is set to dominate the ACC 6 or 7 times out of 10, then can beat UF 3 or 4 times out of 10, then FSU odds are both of those will happen in the same season at least once (maybe twice) in the same decade. Can you really complain about two very legit shots at playing for the MNC every year? And that is without counting on any crazy seasons where all the top teams lose.

With smart scheduling and a sizeable talent gap between the rest of the ACC FSU could still roll, even though the results from the 90s are unattainable. I for one won’t be complaining about “only” winning 10 games on our off years.

by osceolafan2.0 on Jun 29, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

But is beating UF 3-4 times out of 10 a "goal"???

Regardless of the past few years, that seems like a LOW totem poll to hop over

by Cigar City Nole on Jun 29, 2010 11:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I wouldn't say it is a goal

but if you combine their money advantage with the SEC advantage UF is in the driver seat. Also if FSU goes 4-6 against UF would you really be complaining? Especially if FSU wins between 10 and 14 games a year will going 4-6 versus the gates bother you that much? As long as FSU is competing for titles and the few loses are close loses I am fine.

by osceolafan2.0 on Jun 29, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it's a reasonable expectation.

The goal is always to win them all but we need to have a baseline. It’s also a way of saying 3-4 years out of every decade we should be in the MNC hunt with 11-12 wins in those seasons.

Christian Ponder: Your favorite quarterback's favorite quarterback.

by Jamil Dawson on Jun 30, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

It has become more upbeat

Part of it is I am fairly confident that Miami will soon cement itself as the 3rd best program in the state. FSU really needs Miami to be down in order to compete with Florida consistently. I think that will eventually happen.

I still don’t think we’re going to have winning decades against UF, and have serious concerns with our conference. But I think this year is an important year for the future and now believe this team will be better than I thought

by Bud Elliott on Jun 29, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

My thoughts since joining TN

Is that we really need prime access to Miami’s talent base in order to somewhat make up ground that has been lost to UF over the years. I shudder when I hear some nole claim they would like for Miami to regain a position of national prominence in order to prop up the ACC so when FSU does happen to win the ACC the conference is looked upon in a more positive light. Damn that!

There’s never been a time where all of the “Big 3” were 11-12 win type teams for the same stretch. UF’s leadership,stream of resources, and the failings of FSU ( for the last decade) and Coker at scUM have assisted in elevating UF to unprecedented levels of success that they’d almost have to intentionally sabotage in order to lose. They’re has been many conversations revolving around conference affiliation so I will choose not to speak about my personal feelings on FSU’s present situation

But bottom line: Miami HAS to get left behind. There’s no other way IMO. Their perception needs to be lowered nationally,and their backyard talent procured. (We do have Coley and Gran for a reason I believe) That won’t cure everything considering the disparity in resources. But there are other steps that can be made in that regard. Hopefully by 2012 certain preliminary meetings that have evidentally taken place start to bare some fruit that helps out a bit

by westcoastnolefan on Jun 29, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tennessee

I thought their defense was okay last year, thought their offense was their main problem again. I did not realize Tennessee was on the lighter side though.

by nolestuff on Jun 29, 2010 7:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Then again

I also was not too impressed when I saw TN’s defense because I think lots of SEC defenses get ranked high due to most of their offenses still not being caught up to Florida’s.

by nolestuff on Jun 29, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

It wasn't a bad defense

It was very good against Bama and UF, but it got destroyed by a terrible Ole Miss offense (450+ yards and 42 points) and Virginia Tech, among others.

by Bud Elliott on Jun 29, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Perhaps

that was the one game where Ole Miss decided to show off the offense everyone expected coming into that season hahaha

by nolestuff on Jun 29, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good for Hicks

that is impressive. Going to be one of those guys that has the benefit of having time in a strength program. White has all the physical tools to impress. Really hopes he puts them to good use this year.

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Jun 30, 2010 8:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Damien Jacobs?

and he’s projected to play DE, right?

Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....

by TLHWG on Jun 30, 2010 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

DT - he's a biggun

FSU Football 2010: "Everyone gets a playbook."

by ricobert1 on Jun 30, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Something I posted on ATVS

Is it possible that weight isn’t the actual deciding factor, but is just a signal of another factor that’s actually more relevant. Specifically, is there a correlation between size and experience? All other things being equal, you’d expect a D line of four seniors to be bigger than a D line of four freshmen. Perhaps that explains part of it.

Thoughts?

Don't Panic.

by 4.0 Point Stance on Jun 30, 2010 11:36 AM EDT reply actions  

Interesting, but the numbers support the notion of a philosophical shift in personnel approach

Look at our 3 senior DT’s last year: Mincey (275) , Stewart (268), and Thacker (270).

Compare that with our projected underclassmen contributing DTs, 3 of whom project over 295 lbs. That’s a 25 lbs. difference and with younger players.

FSU Football 2010: "Everyone gets a playbook."

by ricobert1 on Jun 30, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just curious

Did you use any particular set when determining weight? For example, Florida played primarily out of the 3-3-5 last year. I don’t know if it was the official base set, but it was the most common set the Gators used. Swapping a big guy for Will Hill would change the Gators’ weight by about 100 lbs.

It is a truth universally acknowledged that a zombie in possession of brains must be in want of more brains

by Chekhov's Spread Gun Option on Jun 30, 2010 1:14 PM EDT reply actions  

UF played primarily out of the 3-3-5?

I disagree there a bit. I know it got some publicity but the Gators list their base defense as the 4-3 and their tackle numbers also indicate they played a 4-3 as their base set.

I used the set dictated by the university on their depth chart.

by Bud Elliott on Jun 30, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cunningham 12 starts
Dunlap 12 starts
Hunter 11 starts
Sanders 8 starts, Howard 4 starts

by Bud Elliott on Jun 30, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

The switch happened around the So Car game in 2008

It could have been that the Gators played more spread-y teams from then to the end of the year, but at the start of 2009, the main set was 5 DBs, 3 LBs, DE NT DE.

Gators’ leading tacklers:

Haden (CB)
Stamper (LB)
Black (SS)
Spikes (LB)
Doe (LB)
Hill (NB)
Jenkins (CB)
Dunlap (DE)
Wright (FS)

It is a truth universally acknowledged that a zombie in possession of brains must be in want of more brains

by Chekhov's Spread Gun Option on Jun 30, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know that's not an end-all stat

but trust me, the Gators’ primarily played out of the nickel last year.

It is a truth universally acknowledged that a zombie in possession of brains must be in want of more brains

by Chekhov's Spread Gun Option on Jun 30, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cunningham 12 starts
Dunlap 12 starts
Hunter 11 starts
Sanders 8 starts, Howard 4 starts

by Bud Elliott on Jun 30, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m more of an “innings pitched” guy than a “games started” guy. Hill was on the field more often.

It is a truth universally acknowledged that a zombie in possession of brains must be in want of more brains

by Chekhov's Spread Gun Option on Jun 30, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Perhaps after they had a big lead.

Even w/o Dunlap against Bama they were in a 4-3 predominantly.

by Bud Elliott on Jun 30, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd argue we were a 4-3 against Bama for two reasons:

1. We didn’t have Dunlap, who was a monster and counted as two linemen against most teams

2. Bama is freakin’ huge and you better stack the line against them.

It is a truth universally acknowledged that a zombie in possession of brains must be in want of more brains

by Chekhov's Spread Gun Option on Jun 30, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Addendum 1:

And this year, with the Gators’ lowered experience and less talented, smaller front 6, they will likely switch back to a 4–3 base, only using the 3-3-5 as a pass defense formation.

It is a truth universally acknowledged that a zombie in possession of brains must be in want of more brains

by Chekhov's Spread Gun Option on Jun 30, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Philosophy

I can’t imagine anyone not wanting big linemen. With linebackers, I can see philosophy coming into play as you can’t always get both the size and the speed you want.

by SeminoleMike on Jun 30, 2010 1:18 PM EDT reply actions  

You always want as much size as possible

But you don’t want your DEs being giant blobs. I think most coaches would take an athletic 250 lbs end over a 275-280 lbs guy with less talent.

DTs can be blobs though.

It is a truth universally acknowledged that a zombie in possession of brains must be in want of more brains

by Chekhov's Spread Gun Option on Jun 30, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

The 1-tech only, really

FSU Football 2010: "Everyone gets a playbook."

by ricobert1 on Jun 30, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bud, 2 questions:

Just because the 1780 size requirement applied last year, since the game constantly evolves, do you think that this same size requirement will hold for 2010?

Also, is there any chance that FSU will play some 3-4 this year? I know that, e.g., TOSU is primarily a 4-3 D but occasionally they play some 3-4.

Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....

by TLHWG on Jun 30, 2010 3:36 PM EDT reply actions  

To your second question I would say yes. Fisher is all about being multiple (drink!) and reports have mentioned some 3-4 work being done by the D. I would like us to ultimately use a 3-4/4-3 hybrid but finding the personel for that isn’t the easiest thing to do.

by evenflow58 on Jun 30, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed but

I fully expect to see 4 man fronts where only three rush with White/Stevens dropping into coverage. I can’t speak to often this will happen but I think Stoops will use quite a bit of deception.

Christian Ponder: Your favorite quarterback's favorite quarterback.

by Jamil Dawson on Jun 30, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that’s the hybrid I’m talking about. Putting the tackles in a bind on who is coming can really confuse them. It’s even more fun when a DT and LB switch places after the snap and nobocy knows what’s going on. Overload rushes are fun when using similar ideas.

by evenflow58 on Jun 30, 2010 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think there will always be a set number from year to year.

I do think you’ll continue to see the elite defenses be over a certain mark in each year.

by Bud Elliott on Jun 30, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

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