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Andrew Carter's interview with Lonnie Pryor confirms everything we said last year about fired FSU running back coach Dexter Carter. Carter was in over his head and was not competent to coach at the major college level. It's fine to hire former players, but only if they have the requisite experience, i.e. Lawrence Dawsey who came from USF. The blame here goes on coach Bowden for hiring someone who was unqualified and setting him up to publicly fail. We have no doubt Dexter could, in time, be a good coach and he will always be a great Nole.

Just read the interview. Some of this stuff is pretty jaw-dropping when you consider FSU is one of the premier jobs in the country. The positive here is that FSU went from potentially the worst running backs coach in major college football to arguably the best in Eddie Gran.

over 1 year ago Recruiting_image_tiny Bud Elliott 152 comments 0 recs  | 

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You have been on fire

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

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by Bud Elliott on Aug 12, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

hey, i was there too, in the endzone as well

though i’ve forgotten if it was the endzone we scored in last.. i’ve tried to block that game out of my memory.

the only redeeming part was making fun of the PA announcer’s baahstahn accent. “Christian Paahndah!”

by ArsonistSavior on Aug 12, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is pronounced Baaston

Bring back Peter Tom Willis
Ann say hello to the grand kids

by DocHoliday2 on Aug 12, 2010 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's what he said.

Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman

by CornNole on Aug 12, 2010 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's good to give back.

Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman

by CornNole on Aug 12, 2010 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's what she said, but i just went to sleep instead.

can’t believe i let my first post here be a twss joke.

by George702 on Aug 13, 2010 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Welcome to TN George!!

It’s amazing how much TWSS will come-up in football related discussions.

FEAR THE SPEAR!!!!!!!!!

by goatnole76 on Aug 13, 2010 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

At this point, I'm not surprised by any information like this.

Sign of the times, I guess.

Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman

by CornNole on Aug 12, 2010 6:49 PM EDT reply actions  

It still suprises me. I know it shouldn't, but it does.

These are things that the older Pop Warner levels are taught. Obviously the complexity is greater pertaining to the reads, but the concept is still taught. Man, the Program was such a freaking laughing stock.

by HROB3 on Aug 12, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

From worst RB coach in the country to best RB coach.

We could say the same about Offensive Coordinators.

And about the OL coaches.

And perhaps Special Teams coaches.

And, while we might not be able to say we went from worst —> best with DE coaches, LB coaches, or secondary coaches, we did go from virtually no coaching to very good coaching and teaching.

This is one of those “intangibles” that can’t be quantified or fully understood until we see the results on the field. That’s why comparisons about where we were ranked last year or how much ground teams usually make up year over year are almost useless.

To reduce this intangible to something statistical and predictable, we’d need to know how other teams did in very simlar circumstance— from no coaching to excellent coaching— with comparable player talent and experience to FSU’s. But I don’t know if those data points are out there. FSU’s situation may be truly unique.

Folks can (and do) snark at others who talk about winning against OU because “we’ll be jacked up” and “we have heart”, which naively assumes OU won’t and doesn’t.

But one is not silly, naive, uniformed, or intellectually impovershed because he assumes we’ll be a much better team very quickly due to finally having some coaching, perhaps good enough to beat OU. In reality, folks on both sides of that argument are arguing from ignorance, despite all the hubris.

In fact, if we win, I may just laugh at those who confidently smirked that it would not happen, with no solid data to back up their assumption.

more mayonnaise... lotsa' mayonnaise!

by PeachTreeNole on Aug 12, 2010 7:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Worst at the major college level

Talking like 40 or 50 programs. I have real doubts about some coaching elsewhere.

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Aug 12, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec for "FSU's penal colony"

Its like Australia, but for football and in Alabama…

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Aug 13, 2010 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I lol’d so hard at the henderson line.

by mhauer on Aug 13, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

I am with you on that FiestaNole

If FSU wins God help them!

Bring back Peter Tom Willis
Ann say hello to the grand kids

by DocHoliday2 on Aug 12, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think OU will win (but I'd love an upset)
In fact, if we win, I may just laugh at those who confidently smirked that it would not happen, with no solid data to back up their assumption.

I’d say the data people cite to back up the “OU will win” assumption are that OU’s talent is probably greater, probably a bit more experienced overall (esp. regarding years in the system), and have had good/excellent coaching for multiple years. We have a lot of youth (though some of our young’uns have solid PT experience), the D is learning a new system, and the RBs and D have months (instead of years) of good coaching.

Perhaps no team has ever been in our position (thus we’re not sure just how much and how quickly we’ll improve), but OU is a strong program and has been for years. I think it’s logical to assume they have the advantage even if the talent is equal (not to mention the game is in Norman) because the long-term preparation is not.

Can we win? Yeah, we could. I’m just not willing to put big money on it.

by Invictus13 on Aug 12, 2010 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Agreed.

I’ll also add that we have an intelligent readership who understands the underpromise/overdeliver strategy.

Also, erring on the side of caution is probably human nature in times of extreme uncertainty. That’s exactly what we’re facing.

Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman

by CornNole on Aug 12, 2010 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I could happen

Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry

by Desman on Aug 13, 2010 4:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

i am and will

+300 at least for moneyline. Taaaaaasty!

WAR PAINT OF TN

by Zach_Nole on Aug 13, 2010 7:01 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Not sold on OU

I keep reading about OU and how good they are but I’m not sure they are. They do look good on paper but that’s it let’s not forget this was an 8 and 5 ball team last year. I’m not saying they won’t be good but they have to prove it to me. I do think it is going to be a lot better game than most people think. P.S. If we keep living in the past we will never see the future. Let’s leave Bobby in the past and concentrate on Jimbo and the future.

by rllewis on Aug 13, 2010 10:55 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Agree on Bobby sentiments

Completely disagree on OU.

FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st down.

by ricobert1 on Aug 13, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

How would we do if we lost Ponder first game?

I’d be happy with 8-5.

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."

by tricknole on Aug 13, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ban.......LOL

Come on Trick you can’t be doing that…..lol

FEAR THE SPEAR!!!!!!!!!

by goatnole76 on Aug 13, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

On another note

If Gehres manages to start a game or Bright makes one tackle, just one tackle, look out!
I can understand why but our fan base is conditioned to expect the worst and for five years they haven’t been too far off the mark.

Bring back Peter Tom Willis
Ann say hello to the grand kids

by DocHoliday2 on Aug 12, 2010 7:56 PM EDT reply actions  

Wooot!

Let’s go Gehres!!!!

Go Noles coming from Atlanta!!!

by nolefan07 on Aug 12, 2010 10:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I thought our O wouldn't be any more productive than last year...

but now I’m starting think otherwise learning this sort of stuff. Moreover, I’m beginning to think that last years teams isn’t going to resemble this years team in any meaningful way.

Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....

by TLHWG on Aug 12, 2010 8:29 PM EDT reply actions  

I think its going to be like when Ponder went out last season and EJ came in.

The play book was not the same at all. There were somethings that were but to little to really see. I think thats how this year is going to look. Its going around that OU has better talent. Where? I can see that there Def is going to be good I get that but Our Offence went up agents real good Def last year and keep us in games other than UF. The problem was Def. for us. What if, what if we go in there and our Def does a 180. Im sorry But FSU has talent. Young and raw but at least now we have coaches that can develop it. Also OU replaced what almost there whole o-line and do you think there o-line is better than ours. Our Def goes agents one of if not the best o-line in the country every day. We might get blown out but I think you all are going to be shocked about how good the team really is. Our Offence won games last year they will do it this year too and better.

Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry

by Desman on Aug 13, 2010 4:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

When people say better talent.

They mean look at recruiting, and development of players. FSU has been off in that department for a long time. They did beat us in 2000, before our major issues arose.

FEAR THE SPEAR!!!!!!!!!

by goatnole76 on Aug 13, 2010 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Umm...

They beat us in the NC game. 2000 was the last year of the dynasty, not part of the lost decade. We had a Heisman Trophy QB at the time.

by Invictus13 on Aug 13, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Though I agree that coaching was part of the problem

The transition to Jeffy was under way, and Richt spent a lot of time prepping to take over at UGA. (Hey, our offense didn’t score in Jeffy’s semi-debut – a sign of troubled times to come?)

by Invictus13 on Aug 13, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I agree with this

I’m not one of those naysayers whose never happy with anything, but I didn’t feel good about our offense for years prior to Richt’s departure. It never seemed like we did what we wanted to, we just did what we could. Luckilly we had enough talent, so we could usually do an awful lot.

But I just used to think there were plenty of times when what we were doing wasn’t really in the best interests of the game, such as a forty yard bomb on 3rd and 6. Or nursing a lead in the second half and coming out for a series and throwing three straight passes and punting it right back.

The offense frequently appeared to have little rhyme or reason to it, more just identifying a weakness and going after that.

Don’t get me wrong, that’s a big part calling an offense. But I don’t think that makes you a GREAT offensive coordinator. It seems like there are times when there are specific things you want to do, like run clock or move the chains, or wear down the d-line for the second half, or whatever. And I never thought we did a very good job of imposing our will on a team that had any capacity to resist. Under Richt I should say.

by LouC on Aug 13, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, no coach does everything perfectly

Richt’s offenses put up some really good numbers so it is hard to knock him.

Bobby did talk about the need for more running, but he did not force it to really come about. Why they did not see the success of Greg Jones and recruit more big backs is beyond me. The little guys would have had more success with a better Oline and more running plays called too though.

by nolestuff on Aug 13, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also the loss to Miami

was a close loss to a really good team where both the offense and defense had ups and downs, as usual when good teams play. The defense pretty much had a chance to put the game away with only a few minutes left and they could not.

Though it would not have made the offense look much better, I wonder how having a real kicker would have changed the Oklahoma game, if at all.

by nolestuff on Aug 13, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Richt was one of the most unimaginative playcallers I've ever seen

I can only imagine what someone more competent could have done with that level of talent.

by Pre on Aug 13, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

exactly why I was excited when UGA took him.

Finally, I thought, Bowden will bring in a brilliant OC to fully utilize our talent, and we’ll be unstoppable— we’ll often be playing for NC’s for the foreseeable future.

LOL!

more mayonnaise... lotsa' mayonnaise!

by PeachTreeNole on Aug 13, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

fiesta, it's possible to draw a crude hypothesis from what's out on Youtube.

Check out Dunn and Warrick’s highlights, which spanned most of the Richt era.
Many big plays are those 2 cutting back all the way across the field and improvising huge gains, using their superior talent to out-athlete the ACC foe.
You don’t see a ton of perfectly executed X’s and O’s, expert timing, etc.
It’s just, “my guy is better than your guys chasing him”.
A lot of those big plays would be no gains or TFL’s if the talent was equal. The hidden secret of the Dynasty Years offense.

by The K-Man on Aug 13, 2010 5:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

If just out talenting worked

then why did things fail after Richt left?

by nolestuff on Aug 13, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

good question.

now, did we continue to use Richt’s obsolete offense once he left? Did he even use it at UGA? Were both miami and uf back from probation land? And just what was our QB situation…. hmmmm.

more mayonnaise... lotsa' mayonnaise!

by PeachTreeNole on Aug 13, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even if Richt wasn't elite, he was at least competent.

I tend to think he was much closer to elite than just competent, as evidenced by his fairly successful stint at UGA. Either Fredo wasn’t a competent replacement OC or Bobby fiddled too much in things since it was his son, or both.

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."

by tricknole on Aug 14, 2010 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

During the dynasty, whether our offensive schemes were top notch or not is debatable,

but we definitely had quality player development and technique coaching — perhaps aside from OL.

Richt, in particular, is an elite QB coach. Though I agree that his play-calling was often very conservative/vanilla, particularly in big games. This may actually have been strategic, though, knowing we could beat teams with our almost universally superior talent. A case for this could be made by looking at the 1998 UF@Doak game, where we inserted the Wildcat with PW and otherwise executed a pretty creative scheme to beat Florida, without the luxury of a quarterback who could throw it 40 yards (no offense to Outzen) after CWink’s neck injury.

by arrdub on Aug 14, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

that about sums it up.

nm

more mayonnaise... lotsa' mayonnaise!

by PeachTreeNole on Aug 13, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Way funner than fun.

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."

by tricknole on Aug 14, 2010 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Huh?

Im not sure what he said, but I think I like it.

by Carryingaspearorrunningfromit on Aug 13, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

They have quotes like this every year though, even if it is the same coach..

So I do not read too much into some of th preseason stuff. Players talk about learning from mistakes, learning new things, making strides in the weight room, the team effort at practice, the chemistry, blah, blah.

Carter did not play for an Oline that had a zone blocking scheme, so how can he explain it? No one complained the previous year when the running game with A. Smith and J. Thomas was doing well. The backs seemed to find the holes fairly quickly then.

BTW, I think they Carter because Bowden really had a short list of Edgar Bennett in front of him, and even though Bennett had already had NFL level coaching experience, he must have thought somehow he could recruit him again to FSU. Who knows whether that would have worked out well though.

by nolestuff on Aug 12, 2010 8:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Carter did not play for an Oline that had a zone blocking scheme, so how can he explain it?

Agreed. Then why force that coach down Fisher’s throat?

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
Follow Tomahawk Nation's Twitter feed!

by Bud Elliott on Aug 12, 2010 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe it was expected Fisher and Trickett would coach Carter

and he would coach his players. Maybe they tried. Who knows? Then again maybe they just did not want to bother with him and treated him like the cast of Jersey Shore did to Angelina on the first episode or so of the new season of Jersey Shore.

by nolestuff on Aug 13, 2010 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Jersey shore reference from Nolestuff? Never thought I would see the day

You’re right. Perhaps they could have done a better job coaching them up.

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Aug 13, 2010 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

nope that wouldnt happen because or CTC.

Think about it. There was two sides. BB and JF sides last year. You can see who was on whos side because JF side is still here. They told him things last year Im sure but did he care or lesion. prob. not.

Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry

by Desman on Aug 13, 2010 4:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

The running game was pretty much doomed after Trickett heard that Dexter had been talking crap to J420 and Joey Yanks

by 38Noles on Aug 13, 2010 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

This would be insane under different scenario

CEO of major firm promotes first year associate to Manage entire litigation practice because he booked Torts in law school and it’s his buddy’s son. CEO expects other senior partners managing other practices to teach him in their non-existent spare time. Litigation practice crumbles. CEO blames other senior partners for first year associates failure to run a successful statewide litigation practice.

by TampaLawNole on Aug 13, 2010 9:09 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

You raise an interesting question

When was it discovered by Jimbo that Carter was not teaching his ’backs about what the OL was doing? Was anything done immediately? Did JF tell Carter to start teaching the RBs what the OL was doing? If not, why?

by CurtOFD78 on Aug 14, 2010 5:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also, hiring experienced guys does not always pay off any better, not sure

if it is gelling with the other coaches or what, but Darrell Dickey had an impressive resume before FSU and we will never know if he was just a victim of the JB system or if he had a hand in the offensive woes…same for..

http://coachmchale.com/football-run-drills.htm

by nolestuff on Aug 13, 2010 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

i wish i didnt click on that

Was McHale working on that masterpiece while under salary at FSU?

by The K-Man on Aug 13, 2010 12:20 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Chemistry is important

But Mchale also had issues with recruiting

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
Follow Tomahawk Nation's Twitter feed!

by Bud Elliott on Aug 13, 2010 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

His coaching ability at FSU seemed to have issues

How did he have success before FSU is what I wonder? What went wrong? I know you mention lack of recruiting, but he had as much or more to work with than Trickett got here, and Trickett made an impact with freshmen right away. Did McHale get away with recruiting really good Olinemen at Marshall and out manning others? It was hard to tell if he was actually teaching zone schemes because his guys were not physically dominant enough and without toughness and proper leverage, etc I guess it does not matter what scheme you try.

by nolestuff on Aug 13, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

A good CEO wouldn't have hired a RB coach with no zone running experience...

in the first place; a good CEO would have found someone with A) familiarity with running in zone blocking schemes, #2) Someone who the new OC would approve of, D) Someone with at least SOME friggin collegiate coaching experience. The excuse that, well he wasn’t familiar with running in a zone scheme, are you kidding me.

This really was Bowden’s undoing IMO, hiring inexperienced coaches and hoping our stellar talent would cover up the fact the coaches didn’t know what they were doing, like the coaches could just learn on the job like the players, once our talent level dropped off those coaches weaknesses were exposed and we waited too long to make changes so instead of a lost half-decade you get a full decade, a nice round number.

by karmanole on Aug 13, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hate drinking the kool aid because it usually turns bad when the season begins but it so hard not to this time

I still think 8-4 or 9-3 ( with some luck) is what we will actually end up but I swear the games that were near toss ups, I am growing more confident that we will win every time I read an article like this. BC, Clemson, NC and Miami to me are all very close games but now part of me believes we can win them….I do not think we can beat OU nor UF, just way too far behind those elite teams…it will take a few years. But 10-2, hell, that would feel almost like a national championship in my book.

by diablonole on Aug 12, 2010 10:48 PM EDT reply actions  

One of you big brains can do the math...

Even if you think we have a 65% chance of beating each of Clemson, Miami, BC and North Carolina (which is an insanely inflated kool-aid estimate), what does that make the chance to win ALL FOUR of those games?

Isn’t it like a 17.8% chance that we win all four of those games? To say you think something with a 18% chance of happening is going to happen, that’s far beyond optimistic.

You can predict it, and roll the dice on people thinking you’re a genius after the fact. But don’t expect anyone to see it your way rationally or agree that it’s a reasonable prediction.

That said, I hope we win 10 games :-)

by LouC on Aug 13, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Your math is right

.65^4 = 17.8% of winning all 4 games @ 65% probability each.

FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st down.

by ricobert1 on Aug 13, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

I feel a 10-2 season is about right but I have Koolaid with Sojo.

All the teams on our side are BS I think. They all suck. The team that we need to worry about will be Miami. I think thats it for the ACC. The rest of the teams were on our lvl last year because we had people holding us back. You talent doesnt win every game. some games can and are won by coaching. (Last year USF) Im not saying OU dont have good coaches because they have great coaches. They dont have a better o-line, The dont have a better LB corp. They dont have faster players. (I dont think at least) They dont have better QB. Will they win maybe, can we win yes. Its not a 50-50 chance but its not a 70% chance ou wins like some think

Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry

by Desman on Aug 13, 2010 5:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ah the soju.....

Experienced many a morning doing PT at Camp Eagel hung over from soju and the entire formation smelling like rotten cabbage (kimshe). Ah the memories……

by maxi_judson on Aug 13, 2010 8:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Gives me even greater respect for J. Thomas' late-season surge. . .

He obviously learned quickly post-Trickett taking over, and maybe it also explains his early malaise. Heck, he would have broken the 1,000 yard mark if he’d only had that understanding for a couple more games.

Of course, if Chris Thompson is really playing that much better, the running game ought to be even more impressive now that the sun has come out once again in Tallahassee.

"There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese." -- Coach Finstock

by BigSpear on Aug 13, 2010 12:44 AM EDT reply actions  

He was dinged up

a bit too in the beginning of the season I think.

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Aug 13, 2010 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

So in other words...

…we’re an awesome offense even when our running backs don’t know what the hell they’re doing.

by Drew J Jones on Aug 13, 2010 8:48 AM EDT reply actions  

Dexter Carter would probably respond,

“Coach Sexton never talked to us about any of that stuff.” And he’s right. Sexton was the dumbest and laziest assistant coach in all of college football. Bobby kept him around for 30 years out of loyalty—coaching the kickers and running backs. Getting rid of him was part of the deal with bringing Jimbo in and letting junior go.

by gambelero2 on Aug 13, 2010 9:13 AM EDT reply actions  

I have read quotes from Bowden basically to the effect that a coach is a coach and it does

not matter what segment he coaches or the level of experience he has, the basics are the basics and he (Bowden) could teach the coach all the finer things he needed to know about the position.

by Class of '71 on Aug 13, 2010 9:16 AM EDT reply actions  

There is some truth to that.

But it requires the coach in question to do his homework and put in the time to learn the nuances of his position. Still, if you want a line coach, it is probably best to hire a line coach.

by nolesontop on Aug 13, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

There's often the assumption

People assume, all the time, that because someone was a very good player of the game, that means he will be a very good coach.

And that’s rarely true. Great players seems to be able to do the things they do, just because they can. And it’s been that way in all sports, it seems. Whether it’s what a horrible manager Babe Ruth was, whatever.

Off the top of my head, I can think of one coach that I think is really good who was also a really good player. Much as I hate to say it, Steve Spurrier.

by Sobering on Aug 13, 2010 9:18 AM EDT reply actions  

see also: Wayne Gretzky with the Phoenix Coyotes

Even though he was one of the greatest players ever; while he was behind the bench the team was one of the absolute worst in the league, finishing at or near the bottom of the standings every single year.

As soon as they got a competent coach they went from the 27th (out of 30) ranked team to the 4th best regular season record in the league and their first playoff berth since 2002 with no increase whatsoever in player talent.

And that’s in hockey where coaching is at best 1/10th as important as it is in football. I’m still tempering my hopes for this year, but hopefully a turnaround like what Dave Tippett and the Coyotes put together last year is not at all out of the question for the Noles.

by ArsonistSavior on Aug 13, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

As Bear Brant use to say a Coach needs to earn his spurs.....

What made the Carter hire so questionable is that Bowden hired him right off the street. Great player does not mean great coach. Someone who wants to coach is better off starting at the bottom and working his way up. I hope FSU never hires a coach w/o a proven track record. jmho

by Class of '71 on Aug 13, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

There are more than Spurrier, but yeah, they are the exceptions...

John Wooden may be the best example, Hall of Fame for both.

As is Lenny Wilkins.

Mike Ditka is a hall of fame player and won a super bowl as a coach.

by LouC on Aug 13, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Another guy I forgot!

Bill Russell. Which leads to Tommy Heinson (sp?).

But again, there is definitely an assumption that great player equals great coach.

There’s a story that Yogi Berra was trying to teach a young guy how to hit and finally, just gave up and said, “ah, hell, just watch me do it.”

by Sobering on Aug 13, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

The player-coach success of the Celtics is definitely anomalous.

Heisohn, I believe.
And Doc Rivers now.
And let’s not forget former FSU great Dave Cowens, who had a couple respectable seasons coaching Charlotte.

"There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese." -- Coach Finstock

by BigSpear on Aug 13, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mike Scioscia was a good catcher, and is a great manager

great defensively, relatively good hitter for a catcher. 2 time all star

by FSUFEARTHISSSPEAR on Aug 13, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then give me Joe Torre instead

And Sweet Lou Pinella.

But none of those guys, in my mind, were “great players.” But they were all pretty cerebral. Think that’s common for catchers. But for Pinella as a player, he pulled off a great decoy in the 1978 one game playoff with the Red Sox that was for the division title.

Everybody remembers Bucky’s fly ball over the monster. But Pinella’s brains were huge in that one.

by Sobering on Aug 13, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mike was on that Simpsons softball episode.

If he’s good enough for Matt Groening to notice, he’s pretty good.

by The K-Man on Aug 13, 2010 5:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

A bit off topic...

…but was that really Frank D Nole that said in the AC comments, “I heart Dexter Carter…”?

by El Soro on Aug 13, 2010 11:51 AM EDT reply actions  

cant link from my phone, but you gotta check out the 1987 UM game on Youtube.

It’s in 3 parts. First game I ever attended. Dexter is most known for that 89 Miami performance (opening TD and tempting Goliath), but the plays he made immediately before Ronnie Lewis’s (who I think is defending his boy DC in this thread) sick TD to setup the fateful 2-point attempt.
That leaping grab by DC took some STONES! Could the stakes be any higher and Ronnie and DC come through like warriors.
Also, notice in the clip how the announcers have no f’ing clue about clock management and how YOU DON’T PUNT WHEN TRAILING WITH UNDER 90 SECONDS.

by The K-Man on Aug 13, 2010 11:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Speaking of the 87 game...

I seem to remember Brent Musburger revisiting the XP that we missed, and concluding that it was a very high kick that actually appeared to be good (ergo, it should have been 26-26 after that last TD, meaning we would have kicked the XP). Does anyone else remember that, and did further analysis of the film settle the matter one way or the other? (I also seem to remember someone joking that with our kicking woes that day – definitely not limited to the XP – we probably would’ve missed the game winner anyway…).

Not that it matters too much now, but I remember being highly irate at the time.

by Invictus13 on Aug 14, 2010 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

He was a great Nole and

I think he tried to put in the work at FSU (could be wrong) but didn’t have the experience or expertise to coach yet. He could make a good coach in the future but needs to earn and learn his way up. The blame rests entirely on Bowden for hiring him and setting him up to fail.

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Aug 13, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

My point was more along the lines of the choice of “Frank’s”, um…language…

It just seemed a bit…out of character

by El Soro on Aug 13, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.

by FrankDNole on Aug 13, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is BEAUTIFUL

Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole

by Miaminole on Aug 13, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Carter as a coach vs. T-Buck as a GA

Maybe I am way off base here, but what is the logic behind Dexter Carter being a position coach and Terrell Buckley being a GA? Could it be that Mickey knew that T-Buck did not have the proper experience to be a position coach, yet someone decided it would be a good idea to let Dexter be one? Based on their quality of play, both in college and the pros, wasn’t T-Buck the superior candidate? Great players do not always make great coaches, but neither of these guys had proved themselves as coaches at any level.

I know these guys coached on different sides of the ball. I just find it very odd that 2 former players went down very different tracks on the coaching staff. Maybe someone knows more about this.

by BossNole on Aug 13, 2010 12:28 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm not sure T-Buck was a better player in college.

Carter was outstanding as well, one of my favorites.

more mayonnaise... lotsa' mayonnaise!

by PeachTreeNole on Aug 13, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

?

Carter was very good…. but T-Buck was a consensus AA, Thorpe award winner for best player at position, still holds the record for the most ostensible statistic at his position (INTs), and was a very high 1st round draft choice, to boot. I think he made at least 1 pro bowl team as well and had multiple years starting in the NFL. I think he’s got a leg up on Carter in every single objective category, doesn’t he?

by arrdub on Aug 13, 2010 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pro- Bowler

That’s what I thought too, but.. he is the only player in NFL history with at least 50 INTs to never be named to the Pro Bowl.

by BossNole on Aug 13, 2010 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

no.

T-Buck never put a flag on Michael Barrow’s head.

more mayonnaise... lotsa' mayonnaise!

by PeachTreeNole on Aug 13, 2010 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think this would have more to do with the fact that there wasn't a place for him on the staff...

Mickey coached the DB’s, so the only other place TBuck could’ve gone would have been LB coach when Steele left, and being that TBuck hadn’t been coaching LB’s that probably wouldn’t have been an option.

Though I will say in hindsight I would bet TBuck would have been a better LB coach than Amato was his second stint and most definitely would have been a better DE coach than Allen.

by karmanole on Aug 13, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I amsure

a monkey would have done a better job at coaching DEs than what Allen did. Heck even better than Amato his second time around because a monkey wouldn’t have tried to screw the team over on purpose just because they didn’t like Fisher being the HCIW.

2010 The beginning of the next great decade for FSU football

by BS37FSU on Aug 13, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Makes you wonder

If Carter was made a position coach to make the offense look bad(not literally,but it wouldn’t progress as fast) to extend Bowden stay

FEAR THE SPEAR!!!!!!!!!

by goatnole76 on Aug 13, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

What's the scoop on James Colzie III?

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."

by tricknole on Aug 13, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dexter a Failure?

Was Dexter a failure or is Gran just a better coach? Just because one is better than the other does not make that person a failure. I agree that he needed to be groomed at a different level and then come to FSU but I don’t think he was a failure. I don’t have the stats available but didn’t we have a pretty solid running game last year? I put last year all on the def or the lack there of.

by rllewis on Aug 13, 2010 1:43 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

He failed.

Things picked up after other coaches picked up the slack for him. Doesn’t mean he can’t be a good coach someday.

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Aug 13, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does everyone forget the year before?

People talk about the running game picking up part way into 2009, but Jermain Thomas did not play much early last year.

In 2008, with Carter as coach, JT and Antone Smith seemed to see the holes and make plenty of good runs.

by nolestuff on Aug 13, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not sure if someone's going to pull up some efficiency stats to show we ran a lot better in 09 than 08...?

But I think that is a decent point. Added to that, the passing game was so much better in 2009 that you would think running would be a lot easier. That’s an odd result.

by arrdub on Aug 13, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it is was solid because of Trickett taking over RB duties during the season.

I think anytime someone has to take over coaching your position during the season, especially another position coach, you have failed IMO.

by karmanole on Aug 13, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd for this

“Carter was a great Seminole, he was just put in a bad position by people that thought they were giving him a great opportuniy. What they actually did was set him up to fail.”

2010 The beginning of the next great decade for FSU football

by BS37FSU on Aug 13, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

On the other side

Of that if he gets a coaching job somewhere else and does a fantastic job then FSU is blamed for not getting him. I’m just saying with every gamble you take a chance but if you don’t gamble you don’t win.

by rllewis on Aug 13, 2010 3:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Some gambles are smarter than others.

Christian Ponder: Your favorite quarterback's favorite quarterback.

by Jamil Dawson on Aug 13, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let's be honest also...

While it’s NEVER advisable to ever make an out of left field hire like that, there are some circumstances where it could have worked out, IF he had the chops for it (and we still don’t know, he might very well have what it takes). But he came into a coaching staff that was totally disfunctional and/or brand new. Had he come into a successful, well oiled machine, and the other coaches were invested in teaching him and bringing him along, it could have been different.

Chuck Smith was hired as the defensive line coach at Tennessee. I’m not sure that he has any more experience coaching that Carter, but they expect him to be a hell of a recruiter. We’ll see if that plays out differently, if he’s insulated in a competent, healthy staff that is one hundred percent on the same page and able to teach him and cover for him while he finds his feet.

by LouC on Aug 13, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Edgar Bennett did not work his way up as a RB coach

He was in player development for the Packers, then became their RB coach. He was the guy Bobby initially tried to get (think he did not have many back up options thus got Carter). Bennett did not coach RBs anywhere before Greenbacy, an NFL level team, and was successful.

by nolestuff on Aug 13, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

That may be, but all of the coaches Fisher has hired have been succesful...

coaches at their position at previous stops, so I’m not sure why you wouldn’t grab a RB coach with at least some experience as well. When Edgar turned it down, he should have just let JF hire someone, I’m sure he had plenty of contacts handy to lure into town if need be, instead of just settling on someone with no experience and hope it works out.

by karmanole on Aug 13, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some successful running back coaches

were former high school offensive coordinators. Had Bobby hired a former high school offensive coordinator though, some might question him on that as well. Basically, as I pointed out with Mark McHale and Daryl Dickey (and even for those who bring up CTC his second time around) even if a guy has a good resume it does not mean success.

by nolestuff on Aug 13, 2010 4:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Are the odds of success greater with someone who has a good resume than someone who does not?

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."

by tricknole on Aug 13, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Resumes

Count in NCAA coaching…

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Aug 13, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

FSU shouldn't hire a guy with no experience or even just HS experience

FSU is not a school where coaches (should) start their careers – unless it’s as a grad assistant or something. As bad as we’ve been lately, we’re still one of the better places to be. We should at least be able to attract coaches who have proven successful at a level or two below the major BCS-level schools. E.g., Hudson (that we got Stoops and Gran kind of shows that we are a step above most places, though the Gran hire may have been partially thanks to Lane? I don’t remember the details as to why Gran left UT…)

by Invictus13 on Aug 13, 2010 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I believe Gran left right before the NCAA

started investigating Tennessee’s recruiting practices under Kiffin. IE: The coeds showing up to recruits HS games,holding up banners in the stands, and finding ways to um………interact with them

by westcoastnolefan on Aug 13, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jeff Bowden

Jody Allen (Never even coached on the defensive side of the ball til FSU)

Those 2 couldn’t even run a good HS football program I believe. Put them in Pee Wee football and maybe they’ll succeed

No fat chicks

by Volstud on Aug 13, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

What about Haggins?

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."

by tricknole on Aug 14, 2010 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Pretty sure trick is talking about Odell

since Jimmy was Heggins

"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher

by RishiM on Aug 14, 2010 3:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

sorry hit post too soon

and Jimmy also had coaching experience before FSU

"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher

by RishiM on Aug 14, 2010 3:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Odell, didn't we hire him without ANY coaching experience and didn't we hire him to coach TIGHT ENDS?

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."

by tricknole on Aug 14, 2010 5:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

If so, it's another example of us getting lucky...

…and BB trying to repeat that luck with later hires. Unfortunately, you don’t get lucky like that too often.

by Invictus13 on Aug 14, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Here.

Says TE/OL for 1994 and 1995.
http://www.seminoles.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/haggins_odell00.html

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
"Trick is right."
"Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed."
"Correct, Sir Trick."

by tricknole on Aug 14, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

Back to T-Buck. I remember when I first saw him working as a GA at practices and on the sidelines and I thought to myself, “Wow, our coaching criteria is so stiff that a 14 yr NFL veteran is a only GA! It must be tough to get into college coaching and work your way to the top at FSU!” That theory got flushed down the toilet when they named Dexter our RB coach…

I wish Dexter the best and hope he does succeed as a coach, not matter where he ends up. Maybe he is not a “failure”, but he failed at the task he was given.

by BossNole on Aug 13, 2010 7:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah...

But I do agree with the sentiment above that he was set up to fail. You don’t just bring in a first-time coach at this level. Plenty of good people, good workers have been put into positions for which they weren’t properly prepared – hopefully DC can get a job where he can learn the ropes (from the coaching perspective). I’d love to have another Seminole out in the coaching world.

by Invictus13 on Aug 14, 2010 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Semantics, shemantics I know. However,

I believe Dexter was hired with the hope he would succeed, and not that he was intentionally set up to fail. Not that anyone has said that he was intentionally set up to fail, or that Bobby knew he would fail, just that the choice of words "set up to fail" is somewhat bothersome to me.

Anyone who has read my ramblings knows that I am not a Bowdenite in any way, shape, or form, but I believe as I posted on AC’s blog, that Bobby hired and promoted with his heart in just about every case, without really looking for the most qualified coach available at the time. I think he always truly believed that all of his hires would succeed.

>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.

by FrankDNole on Aug 14, 2010 12:01 PM EDT reply actions  

I'll agree with that

I definitely think BB wanted DC to succeed – but it wasn’t the right hire, and it put DC in a tough position (as it turned out; apparently as with Haggins, sometimes these types of hires pan out, but more often not). I know almost any hire is a gamble, but someone with a resume like Gran’s is much less of a gamble; BB should have sought out a more polished candidate (even after Bennett didn’t come). I think you’re right that heart won out more often than maybe head.

by Invictus13 on Aug 14, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

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