Thoughts On The End Of Florida State's Fall Camp
by Bud Elliott on Aug 23, 2010 8:51 AM EDT
in FSU Football
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PrintWhat an interesting two weeks for the Florida State program. Here are some general thoughts on what I think we learned from the two weeks.
- There is actual leadership and discipline for the first time in a long while. The players aren't confused as to who is leading the program. There is much less nonsense. Player quotes have revealed that they cannot "just chill" in the weight room. Expectations on the practice field are higher. Players have revealed that the coaches expect football technique and not just athleticism. From the time players wake up to the time they go to sleep, their lives are infinitely more structured than they used to be.
- The defense is unquestionably better than last season. Last season saw the offense have multiple scrimmages in which the offense put up 600 yards in a half or 300 yards in a quarter. The defense was so poor last year and the offense would simply know what coverage they were in and roast them. That is no more. The new scheme makes better conceptual sense for this day and age of offenses. The players are better individually because awful coaches who cannot land a decent job after being fired from FSU have been replaced with competent, and in some cases, excellent coaches. The focus has been on technique and not making plays, with the knowledge that proper technique will lead to playmaking. This defense is far from dominant, but with some injury luck, it could be better than competent later in the year. As the editor of the only FSU site to openly predict the defensive collapse before last season, I'm comfortable saying that this defense is better than last year and is likely better than the 2008 group (which was wildly overrated).
- FSU again has a weight program it can brag about. With defensive linemen adding 20+ lbs in the off-season in some cases, this is pretty evident. No, FSU won't look like the elite teams in only 7 months of training, but I'm quite excited to think that the Noles could be downright monstrous, particularly on defense, for 2011.
- In the pre-season I wrote that Xavier Rhodes starting at the boundary corner position would be a good sign for the 'Noles. Along with Georgia's Aaron Murray and Florida's Andre Debose, Xavier Rhodes is one of the most anticipated red-shirt freshmen in the country. It is Rhodes, and not the more known Greg Reid who people around the program feel has the chance to be the high draft choice. The question coming into camp was whether Rhodes could play with the mental consistency needed to be trusted. It appears Rhodes has answered that question in the affirmative. That's particularly important because he beat out Ochuko Jenije, who could now be needed at safety with projected starter Nick Moody nursing a nasty groin injury. I expect Jenije, a smart 5th-year senior, to play multiple positions for the 'Noles this year, particularly in nickel packages. It's also encouraging that Lamarcus Joyner and Mike Harris have held their own as backups to Rhodes and Reid.
- Everyone I talk to says that this freshman class is the type of class upon which a championship program could be built. Yes, the 2008 and 2009 classes were good classes. This one, however, seems different.
- FSU breaks camp having lost two starters and one key backup for the season in Carr, Fortson, and McCray. Those are heavy losses and while the replacements should be quite capable, the lack of depth at some spots should put a damper on those unrealistic expectations many Noles have at this point. Injuries do happen in this collision sport. FSU needs to pray that they happen at positions of depth and not the shallow spots.
- The competition for the running back position was fierce. First, Jermaine Thomas was demoted for lack of attention to detail and discipline (think pass protection). Then, Chris Thompson put the ball on the ground in the scrimmage. Thomas mounted a late charge and FSU will continue to use a lot of talented runners this year. One key difference, however, is that all-world RB coach Eddie Gran is now instructing these runners and not Dexter Carter, who had no idea what he was doing. The smart money is now on Thomas to start the first game.
- With all of the cross training, it is getting tough to throw together an accurate depth chart. Someone can say "player is working at X position" and someone else can say "player is working at X position" and both are correct. Without great depth, the cross-training is necessary. I'll have a depth-chart soon.
I have more thoughts as well, but those stood out the most. We'll have position-by-position previews in the coming days as well as a lot of other interesting content. The season is almost here. Are you excited?
Finally, check out the FSU Monday Morning Tomahawk Chops©.
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Great points
I started coming to this site around the end of September last year. It has been nothing but excellent, informative posts. The shape and future of this program finally looks to be something Nole fans can truly be excited about. Cant wait till the opening game.
Do you have the link where you predicted the downfall of last year’s defense before the season started?
There are quite a few but here's a good one
Look towards the bottom of the article.
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2009/4/2/819212/d%C3%A9j%C3%A0-vu-florida-states-offense-s
It makes mention of a follow up article specifically outlining how a bad defense could be good for the program long term but I haven’t found it yet.
Sheriff Branford: The fact that you are a sheriff is not germane to the situation.
Buford T. Justice: The god damn Germans got nothin' to do with it!
Using the link you gave above
I followed its link to the OS article, and in its comment section Frank had linked this earler TN article:
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2009/3/11/737204/strategy-session-size-does
So by March 11, 2009, Bud was expressing concerns about our defensive (lack of) scheme. (Good job, Bud)
Whoops
Knox posted that link, responding to a comment by Frank.
I intensely feel that a playbook wouldve been a better solution
“Mickey’s solution to every problem seems to be intensity. In fact, Intensity might be the ’Noles problem— too much of it, that is”
by Dcubbienole on Aug 23, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Here's a quote from Bud's story on August 20th, 2009.
Seminoles.com won’t say anything negative about the team, but I’ve read these reports for years. This means: the defense is getting crushed, just as they did all Spring. They continue to be horrible against the run, just as they were last year. They continue to be very undersized and Jimbo Fisher’s offense is having a field day with them. Mickey’s defense is not adapting to changes in modern offense. The defensive players continue to be confused as lame duck coaches Chuck Amato, Jodey Allen, and Mickey Andrews continue to preach intensity and aggression, without instilling in players the confidence enabling understanding of the schemes they are asked to execute.
I doubt the other pay site was this blunt last August.
Heck no.
WC did a 180 on their stance on the leadership and coaches at FSU. It is constant fluff from those guys as they are worried about having credential revoked. Once it was clear the fans and most importantly other media made it clear that there was going to be change, they jumped on board.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 23, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
credentials, plural.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 23, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, and here's some gold from the comments section of that article:
Run defense: They are getting craved up because its time to face the music that the Nole offense is pretty damn good and they are now experienced and confident. They don’t think when it comes to playing they just play and that allows them to be a half-second quicker. They are also bigger and stronger than last year. I said it beAfore and I’ll say it again there is only one team that can beat the Noles in the ACC and they are located in Tally.
at
Anybody wanna guess who wrote that?
Hint: Rhymes with “TextBevel”
and more gold
BC’s defense is in disarray like thier entire program right now.
it gets better
So we’re still back at the only two teams that can take advantage of the DL weakness we have.
he goes on to elaborate
Mincey really threw a wrench in the plans of the DL but there are few teams except NcState and UF that have the team to fully take advantage of it thank goodness.
hello, sir. would you like another?
I bet you they’ll be more than ready for GT though after this camp!
I miss that guy.
What chance do you think that dude
was like, 15 or 16? Or do you think it really was a super delusional adult fan?
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 23, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
A super delusional adult fan. There is no way it was a kid and he was based in Chicago, thus his other moniker that rhymed with "the sigh" and drove many of us nuts.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
Wow.
Nutter.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 23, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
A terrifying trip back through time
When I went back to find this article, I looked at several posts about how bad things were. All posted before the season started. What’s worse is seeing the word “Coach” before the names Amato and Allen. It was almost depressing to think about having to go through that entire season. But in the end it was worth it!
Sheriff Branford: The fact that you are a sheriff is not germane to the situation.
Buford T. Justice: The god damn Germans got nothin' to do with it!
If we would've had more success last season, Bobby probably would still be here and CTC would be our Def. Coor.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
Fortunately, it was up to them to save themselves.
9-4 might have done it but I just don’t see how that defense/staff could have been that lucky.
Sheriff Branford: The fact that you are a sheriff is not germane to the situation.
Buford T. Justice: The god damn Germans got nothin' to do with it!
"The season is almost here. Are you excited?"
Yes. Yes, I am.
by Invictus13 on Aug 23, 2010 9:04 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The season is almost here. Are you excited?
Did you really have to ask?
Easily the most excited I’ve ever been for a CFB season.
Same here
Although I suspect my excitement will be doubled for next season. I’m just happy to see Ponder close out from a position of strength, accomplishment, and success.
As an aside (to everyone), is it just me or does it seem like the older you get the more excited you get once football season starts? I’m 27 now and it seems like every year I go through worse and worse football withdrawal. Ewen McGregor would be proud.
by AmplifiedJ on Aug 23, 2010 12:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Agreed on football withdrawals/age.
I’m 26. It gets worse every year. Especially during World Cup years, when I’m thoroughly nauseated by all the diving.
"Words ought to be a little wild for they arethe assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes
by Drew J Jones on Aug 23, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
actually at about
30 it starts to get better because you forget the outcomes of all the replay games on Sunsports.
Also if you have kids, football goes from priority 1 to priority 1 A.
"when I’m thoroughly nauseated by all the diving."
no kidding. After one particularly bad game I went straight home and watched an hour of Youtube football “big hits”. Drove me crazy.
"…You can't get enough Lonnie Pryors on your football team." -Eddie Gran
Great Trainspotting reference...
I don’t feel the sickness yet, but it’s in the post. That’s for sure. I’m in the junkie limbo at the moment. Too ill to sleep. Too tired to stay awake, but the sickness is on its way. Sweat, chills, nausea. Pain and craving. A need like nothing else I’ve ever known will soon take hold of me. It’s on its way.
I can't believe
That 2 weeks from now, we’ll be breaking down the Samford game and looking forward to OU. I can barely sit still these days.
This is probably the most excited
I’ve been about Florida State football and the beginning of the college football season in about 10 yrs!!!
I agree
I could spend days just looking at my calendar, waiting for the season. I’m excited to see change and production from some of the guys. While I’d love a ten win season, I’m not too caught up I wins and losses rightnow, just improvement and positive steps towards the future.
by cousinjay on Aug 23, 2010 10:08 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Bud
You have any idea how bad Moody’s injury is? Is it the couple week variety, or possibly the month or two type?
I mentioned on another post that very little has been heard coming out of camp for Andre Debose. I wonder if he is having trouble getting over his injury from last year.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
heres a little info on debose for you
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/gators/commentary-next-year-is-now-for-floridas-next-871790.html
Seems he’s recovered pretty well :(
Interesting
but rivals story I read said they haven’t heard about him making any big or significant plays during practice. We’ll see.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 23, 2010 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Supposedly he's looked good. Just hit a wall conditioning wise
Was making plays before that though
by westcoastnolefan on Aug 23, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
It is not so much
that I want him to fail, but his team to fail. Is that wrong?
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 23, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I am not confident on having him for OU
But I haven’t foreclosed the possibility.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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Not sure how bad of a groin injury it is,
but usually if a player is rushed before it is fully healed, it becomes a nagging injury all season long which really limits any type of athletic move.
mimimum 3 weeks I think regardless of how severe, plus will need practice time.
do we know the date the injury occurred?
Dexter
is “stunned” by these accusations and questions how the RBs “have the time” to learn all of this stuff.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand." - Wes Westrum, Mets Manager
"I guarantee you no running back in the NFL knows what all of his offensive linemen are doing on every play."
I highly doubt that.
In high school I played some fullback and I knew what the OL was doing and their blocking assignments for every play. Now I know things are a lot more complicated blocking wise at the next level but still.
by tdchrisdavis on Aug 23, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
This is tragic
It’s really not that complicated. If backs in the NFL don’t know what the line is trying to do in front of them…..well, please don’t ever interview a back again then. Because that would be a painful interview to listen to….
Horrible, just horrible.
In the article Carter says he taught the blocking on the play side but not back side. Also said his focus was on fundamentals as the RBs were young. Not defending him here just pointing out that he did teach blocking.
It was the use of the word "all"
That disturbed me. Surely, there is a back in the NFL, just one, that knows what the backside is doing as well as play side, isn’t there????
If you don’t know what’s going on backside, it might make it tough to cut back, seems to me.
sometimes fantastic professionals just aren't good teachers
its nothing to be ashamed of. If you take a look at the pinnacle of any profession you’re generally going to find a good portion of people who just cant pass on knowledge. Its because so much of their talent isn’t developed consciencely
by B-rod24 on Aug 23, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
there are a lot of great coaches
Who never even played major college football. Just like there are a lot of talented players who simply followed orders well and certainly never learned anyone else’s duties. Not everyone lived it like a George O’Leary.
Some of you have reading comprehension problems
It is like you read, or hear, what you want to.
He said he they know what the Oline is doing at the point of attack. That is the focus.
Seems the major source for a few paysites continues to sing
Just not to the paysites.
If you read between the lines, you see that FSU is definitely finding more time than just the 20 hours of contact.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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Oh I’m sure they do. Frankly the players can study and do whatever they like in their own time. I remember that from high school baseball.
Put it this way, “Voluntary Saturday Batting Practice” was ANYTHING but Voluntary.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand." - Wes Westrum, Mets Manager
Bingo
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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It’s sad that it seems like the previous administration didn’t push that kind of attitude. I understand 20 years ago it wasn’t necessary, but everyone caught up over the years. The difference between mid level and top tier is minuscule so every little detail counts.
Damn, I’m getting excited for the JF era… feels good for the first time in oh, I dunno, about 10 years.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand." - Wes Westrum, Mets Manager
Is this done “illegally” or are there loopholes the staff is finding (like, here’s a video on how play X is run or something like that)?
kinda feel
bad for the guy. And it seems extremely unlikely to me that he wasn’t teaching the running backs where the offensive lineman would be making holes on any given play. I think there might be some exaggeration here on lonnie’s part or something is being misconstrued. Absolutely no doubt though CJF made the right choice hiring Gran.
Me Too!
though the sour grapes & whine routine doesn’t play well. Even classy guys get caught up in the “I’ll work as hard as the guys around me mindset”……sometimes they forget that they’re supposed to take pride in their work regardless of how bad others are doing theirs.
There is a difference
In understanding the blocking schemes as a coach and TRYING to relay that to the rb’s and actually being able to coach/teach the rb’s what to do because of that blocking scheme.
Probably plenty of people on this site that could tell u what the line was supposed to do on a certain play, but I that doesnt mean theyll be able to teach that to others, especially in an on-the-field setting.
by BenDNole on Aug 23, 2010 9:52 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Wow.
He is mad but C’Mon man…
“You usually have only have 45 minutes to meet with your group. And something new is put in everyday. So I’m going to focus on what I need to teach my guys, not what the offensive line is learning.”
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 23, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
That sounded catty and extremely bitter
Did you ever even play the game? I guarantee I can coach my Little League team to beat yours 10 times out of 10.
by Caveman Mafia on Aug 23, 2010 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
This sounds catty and extremely bitter
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
So it's like taking a 3 hour college class.
You meet for 3 hours a week, but your homework can set you back another 9 hours. Usually my professors didn’t come back to the dorm with me to help me study. Though I wish that Russian professor who taught Soviet Nuclear Proliferation had…
Anyway, Dexter thought he just had 45 minutes to talk to his guys? Is he nuts?
That's about right...
Usually you spend 45 minutes – 1 hour discussing yesterday’s practice and you’ll also have a chance to implement new wrinkles. Football is kinda like life. Some may have it easier than others (i.e. better coaching) but sometimes YOU gotta take the initiative.
We had a mandatory 10 hours a week of film review that wasn’t done with the coaches.We had to sign in on a sheet when we came and left, so from Sunday to Friday you have to get the hours in. The trick was the film rooms were inside the coaches office, they stopped by to say “hi” multiple times while we watched film. I saw guys not travel for away games and not dress for home games if they didn’t get the hours in.
Thanks
for the insight. I have read your posts before. I enjoy reading them.
by LincolnHighNole on Aug 24, 2010 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions
As Usual
awesome job Bud. I’ve always anticipated the season but this year is so much different because of the changes in the program and the fact that I’ve gotten so much good info from you guys on the site. I know I pick at some of the posts using all the quantifiable data available, ie 7.6 wins and such but I respect what rolls thru the site despite the fact that I’m more of a gut intutition guy. I think there’s still something to be said for the team that just wants it more and plays that way. So what excites me the most about this year and this team is the fire that’s been lit. Fear the Spear!
excited?
I will be going absolutely nuts when they run out of the tunnel in 2 weeks. I plan on yelling like it’s the championship game.
You all need a laugh??
My wife’s 65 year old boss (gator fan) tells us at an office party that he thinks we have hired another Ron Zook in Jimbo. I was shocked (and a little angry) and told him that he must not be paying any attention to FSU over the last three years. In any event – this is what some of the folks from the little school down south think of our coach.
Good
let the little school down the road think that.
I do feel like most of the nation has no clue about the process changes that CJF has put in place. On top of that I think the nation thinks that OCJF had a lot more control than HCJF has now. It’s amazing to me how much Bowden didn’t allow to improve in his final years at the helm.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand." - Wes Westrum, Mets Manager
I get that same sense. But, even though it retarded FSU's growth the last couple years,
it helped distinguish between BB and JF. If Fisher had implemented all of this in the past, they would just say he’s continuing on with BB’s plan.
Excellent point. In all fairness though, if Bobby really had been “CEO” and the process changes = wins, I wouldn’t care if BB was still there.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand." - Wes Westrum, Mets Manager
Except that he occupied a valuable coaching position.
But you’re right. If he would have accepted the process changes, we’d be in a much better position. Those process changes, though, included firing his friends and a former player. Never going to happen.
Completely agree. Just saying that if the W’s and Titles were there, none of it would’ve been an issue.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand." - Wes Westrum, Mets Manager
Ideally that would have been nice
But it was a failed experiment from the beginning because CJF had no say over the defense.
I can just imagine his conversation with the wife on the first day home from the job as HCIW.
“Honey, I don’t really know how to put this so I will just say it. Our defense has no playbook.”
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
Bingo
Even with the process changes, the D would still have been under-coached and under-recruited.
Christian Ponder: Your favorite quarterback's favorite quarterback.
by Jamil Dawson on Aug 23, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
We just needed to get some Six-Sigma training for CTC & Co!
Sheriff Branford: The fact that you are a sheriff is not germane to the situation.
Buford T. Justice: The god damn Germans got nothin' to do with it!
With the HCIW situation
There was no way for Bowden to make changes to the defensive staff either so it was a bad thing for everyone.
That's not my understanding
Jimbo had no authority to hire, fire or block hires. Bowden could have done what he wanted on the defensive side (JF was the OFFENSIVE coordinator, after all).
The Head Honcho over at
The Best damn Poll in the Land (www.thebestdamnpoll.com) is a Gate and he said the exact same thing. Jimbo’s just another Ron Zook and not Head Coach material.
I cannot figure how anyone can make that assesment when the man has yet to be the Head Coach at any level?
Dilusional wishful thinking.
A Texan humbles himself before God; there the list ends. - Gen. S. Houston
The thing about Zook was
he had no success as a DC before he was HC – he was DC when we scored 28 in the fourth quarter in 94 and he was DC when UF gave up 62 to Neb in the MNC game in 95
Jimbo has had a lot of success at OC
Exactly
Florida didn’t reach the promised land until Stoops replaced the underachieving Zook.
Christian Ponder: Your favorite quarterback's favorite quarterback.
by Jamil Dawson on Aug 23, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Doosh's advocate
I’m sure many Nole fans had similar comments about Meyer when he came from Utah, thinking it was impossible for him to bring that weak azz spread to the almighty ‘three yards ana’ cloud o dust" SEC.
Let the Gates be wrong and not placate to their nonesense. Like, say 8 out of the next 10 years wrong would be a better way to shut them up.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Aug 23, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Local Tampa radio guy and Cane Dan Sileo said same thing last year.
Every week was that Jimbo is not the answer because its really his team now and look how bad they still are. He, like many others had no idea what was really happening. After the changes and recruiting of Jimbo, Sileo loves him and is predicting us to win 10 games and the ACC. The Gates are really hoping he is a Zook and not predicting it since they can’t say that Jimbo can’t recruit, they are clinging to the hope that he can’t coach. Whats funny is that they will back anyone remotely affiliated with the SEC as superior and will now tell you that Saban is awesome after the beatdown but leave the SEC and Saban and the magic for CJF suddenly goes away. I guess Charlie Strong really sucked all along because he left Urban and coaches in the BE.
by TampaLawNole on Aug 23, 2010 12:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
So...
If Jimbo loads the cupboard with blue-chippers, gets in a fight at a frat house, then we hire Kyle Whittingham and proceed to win a couple of national championships with a semi-retarded fullback playing quarterback, who’s going to complain?
by wnc_nole on Aug 23, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Funniest post I've read in a long time...
And true. Maybe Jimbo is the answer, and maybe he’s Ron Zook Part II. Not sure anyone knows for sure though we are all VERY hopeful. If he keeps recruiting well though he’ll at least have things in order for the next coach and staff.
"No idea what he was doing"?
Great article but still scratching my head at your consistent need to attack the previous coaching staff. Bud, there is no question you know your stuff but if I had to put money on who was more knowledgeable about the RB position, you would lose convincingly to Dexter every time. With that said, I would never accuse you of having no idea about what you are writing.
We all recognize the Gran is an upgrade. Why can’t we be thankful he is here and just focus on the present and future without attacking a former great Seminole player?
by glommer on Aug 23, 2010 9:46 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Because
When your friends ask why the running backs seem to be performing so much more consistently, you can tell them why.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 23, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
That can easily be accomplished
by focusing on the positives that Coach Gran brings to the program. Everyone recognizes an upgrade was made.
by glommer on Aug 23, 2010 9:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It's about educating the masses
I don’t take it as attacking the previous coaching staff, but rather putting into perspective where we are coming from to know how far far we really need to go to get back to decent football. And we have a ways to go.
by freshcollegeboy on Aug 23, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Not true at all.
Anyone that knows me can attest how critical I was with the previous coaching staff. I am thrilled with the changes that have been made and can’t wait for this season to begin.
I have no problem with compare and contrast essays. My problem is when they include needless hyperboles or start to get redundant. At some point, a " we get it" response is needed and it is time to move on.
by glommer on Aug 23, 2010 10:18 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Fair enough.
Perhaps the wording is more troublesome to you than the reference itself.
Instead of:
One key difference, however, is that all-world RB coach Eddie Gran is now instructing these runners and not Dexter Carter, who had no idea what he was doing.
How about:
One key difference, however, is that all-world RB coach Eddie Gran is now instructing these runners and not Dexter Carter, who was far too inexperienced.
I have no problem with your revision.
by glommer on Aug 23, 2010 10:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Inexperienced is not fair though
As I pointed out before, Edgar Bennet’s first actual position coaching job was running back’s coach with the Greenbay Packers.
I think they could have coached Carter on how the system works then had him coach the players, but I think experience in recruiting was the big difference. In the first few games last year Ty Jones seemed to understand how to read the holes and the year before the backs seemed to read the holes and go through them well. I think they saw the position more of as a space to store a great recruiter though and Carter was not one yet, where as Gran knew how to recruit already.
Didn't Bennet just come out of that very system?
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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As someone else said though
Being a good player does not mean you will be a good coach. The coaches currently at Greenbay are different than when Bennett played, just as the coaches at FSU are different from when Carter played there or for the 49ers.
When was he hired?
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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Trying not to hurt somebody's feelings
Is one of the big reasons why FSU was in trouble. I think it is a good idea maybe we don’t continue this path in the future. How about we just simply discuss why things were screwed up and why some people had their butts run off?
Bring back Peter Tom Willis
Ann say hello to the grand kids
If anyone who frequents this board
has not been “educated” on the upgrade that took place with the coaching staff, they will never get educated. At some point, the past needs to remain in the past.
by glommer on Aug 23, 2010 10:02 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
next year. When we are comparing year 2 of fisher to year 1
right now the comparisons are year 1 to year 34 of Bowden.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Aug 23, 2010 10:09 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I’m talking about the Season Tix commercials and stuff though. Selling tix to the JF Noles but featuring Bowden in the Gator Bowl blows my mind. I guess there is just too much old money out there that is pissed about how everything was handled.
That will go away once the W’s start coming.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand." - Wes Westrum, Mets Manager
Well, I'm talking about this message board.
by glommer on Aug 23, 2010 10:20 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Oh I know, I agree with you totally. If people don’t get it from here, AC and elsewhere they never will.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand." - Wes Westrum, Mets Manager
believe it or not
I had a discussion with a season tix holder last week who didn’t even know Bowden was gone. He said BB was really just a figure head now and Jimbo was in control.
I believe it, judging by the folks I sit around on the west side of the stadium. After this year I won’t be subject to it anymore though, I’ll be in the cheap seats once or twice per year when they discount tickets.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand." - Wes Westrum, Mets Manager
Gone or not
Bowden will forever be tied to the team, just like Paterno or Bear Bryant to their teams. Charlie Ward has not played in years, but I am sure they still use old players like him for marketing purposes.
And what of new readers?
There are more people tuning in now that ever before and they don’t know much of what’s been stated here in the past. I don’t have a problem with a quick line that expresses the poor coaching of the 09 season. If we’re still talking about it this time next year, I might feel as you do.
Christian Ponder: Your favorite quarterback's favorite quarterback.
by Jamil Dawson on Aug 23, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Did the players claim
Dexter had no idea what he was doing?
by glommer on Aug 23, 2010 10:09 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
read the link
and remember how he was effectively fired mid-season. Where is he working now?
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Aug 23, 2010 10:16 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I read the link and the one on chantrant.
Although both links had quotes from players sharing their excitement over the new coaching detail Gran brings to the table, neither link quoted a player stating Dexter had no idea what he was doing.
by glommer on Aug 23, 2010 10:28 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I could be wrong, but I believe that statement arose from Trickett having to take over as the RB coach roundabout the BC game last year.
If you combine that with players who are happy to have Gran and who are happy that they are finally learning what their blockers are doing, then it seems to be a fair statement. I taught 7th grade math for a year. It just wasn’t my gift. I was very proficient in doing the work myself as my undergrad degree was a double-major in physics and math. Teaching just wasn’t my gift. I wouldn’t take it as a knock if someone said I didn’t know what I was doing when it came to teaching inner city kids. I’ll let Bud speak for himself and why he wrote that Carter didn’t know what he was doing, but from the players’ reports and historical events from last season I kinda have the same feeling about Carter as a teacher/coach. Doesn’t mean he can’t get better; just means he didn’t have it when he was here. As I understand it, he also struggled on the recruiting trail and passing some test related to that. Again, I don’t think it’s meant to be hating on Dex—Bud’s commens are just sort of about where we were versus where we are now.
Interestingly i learned in middle school math
When you have a missing term but you know the outcome you can deduce the missing term. In this case X equals “he didn’t know what he was doing”
by Ponder This on Aug 23, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Glommer, its a losing battle.
This a great site, but for its relentless attacks on Bowden and his staff. Apparently praising the current staff can’t stand alone…there must always be some derogatory remark to accompany it. Thank goodness Jimbo and the current staff doesn’t dwell on the past in such a negative way.
I will say this. At least the guy who claimed the Bowden’s King -of-the-road nickname was blasted when he said it was a myth.
Gripper
by Gripper on Aug 23, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree. Even with the needless attacks on the prior coaching staff, I do love this site.
I usually stay in lurk mode. Funny thing is when people go after me for supposedly being a sunshine fan who can’t be objective about the program and the previous coaching staff. Obviously, they have never watched a game with me. I have no problem with objectivity…as long as that objectivity is done with class and respect.
by glommer on Aug 23, 2010 10:37 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Running a family business
With good ole boy hiring tactics was what was needless.
Stating the obvious is just another day on the forum.
I don’t think anyone is necessarily going after you, a lot of people here just became really disillusioned with all the smoke and mirrors surrounding the fall of a legend. Many folks were branded as traitors in the early days for having the audacity to point out that the emporor had no clothes.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
by Nattylite on Aug 23, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
rec'd
I recd this because I was the guy yelling for a few years that the king was naked and my fan dome was questioned
i was welcomed here
After getting blackballed from another site. Many of us had to endure crat posters telling us to “have some respect” for a guy who alleged we didn’t know how to use eBay. Sorry, you earn respect, and you can lose it.
For the record, I did get balled for railing on the kicker. But in my defense I didn’t get on him because he missed, but because he was crying when he realized the game rested on his shoulders, or atleast his eyes were bloodshot. Let’s see what was his nickname again?
Most of us
still probably get looked at sideways when we bring our opinions to the light of day in face to face discussions with anyone who doesn’t read TN…oh well!……Ill keep, keepin at it with all due respect and more importantly, FACTS..
love how you guys characterize those saying "the coaches were not doing their jobs" as "attacking."
Perhaps it’s important to point out that staff’s failures because (a) we’re still in the education mode for the Bowden enablers and cultists who contributed to The Lost Decade, perhaps including yourselves, and (b) pointing out what was lacking is a good predictor of high how we have to climb and may in fact climb very soon wityh actual coaching? Sometimes the truth hurts.
proud graduate of the Uncle Rico Quarterback Camp
by PeachTreeNole on Aug 23, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
And getting paid $2.5 mm as a staff to "not do their jobs"
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Aug 23, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Even if you have a problem with the occasional Bowden trashing (I think Bowden richly deserves it though)
this site is still so far ahead of any others for it’s FSU coverage it is silly.
Yep. Pretty rare unless we're making a comparison.
Really hasn’t been much need for the last few weeks.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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I like this site because it is unfettered
but I see glommer’s point. However, Bud’s tag line does read – Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports – so I am not shocked to read criticism in his remarks.
That being said, count me among the fools who hoped for one more year for Coach Bowden even though I pictured it more of ‘Weekend at Bernie’s’ type scenario. I had an inkling of the ineptitude and schisms within the coaching ranks but my loyalty got the better of me.
I started attending FSU in 1975. We didn’t even go to games. No one spoke of football at Florida State. Then, in ‘77, you started hearing whispers around campus and suddenly – and it was sudden – going to Doak Campbell became a popular thing to do and the football was exciting with JJ and WW airing it out. Larry ’Shake ’em’ Keys was awesome. So, count me as a loyalist.
To an extent. Last fall was ugly and the public feud undoubtedly left a sour taste in many fans mouths. Not mine. We are better off for it and the house cleaning that came with it. Anyone reading of the changes occurring within our program has to acknowledge the extent to which the regime had become stale under Coach Bowden. Frankly, I’ve been shocked at its moribundity.
So, count me among the fans of Nole-Holds-Barred opinions. And yes, I am more excited about this program than I have been in a very long time.
by HaveNoleOption on Aug 23, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Weekend at Bernies Bowden
oh man…sounds like photoshop time…
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 23, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
You have never seen that?
I have seen several Miami fans with that as thier sig.
I was more sympathetic to that viewpoint before the newest thread popped up.
The one with the BB interview…
Why the need for denial?
It happened. The old regime let the dynasty crumble under their watch.
Everyone kept asking how FSU was doing so badly and had fallen so far. The national media even tried to portray the University in a bad light as pushing Coach Bowden out of the door when all they were doing was desperately trying to win some football games.
Reminding everyone how things went down helps to keep the history straight and the facts in order.
Yes, Bowden was a great coach who brought FSU out of the dark ages, but history has a way of re-writing itself if ALL the facts aren’t kept straight.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
If, from reading my posts in this thread, you have concluded I'm in denial...
I can not help you.
by glommer on Aug 23, 2010 12:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It was a general question
Not you specifically, although you seem to be of the opinion that it is better to sweep what happened under the rug rather than hold the old coaches accountable for their actions.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
Not an attack
The conversation started when Lonnie Pryor mentioned the content and quality of their coaching this year compared to last year. I think it lent credibility and validation to a lot of the speculation expressed by those of us hypothesizing about the job our coaches were (or were not) doing.
In an odd way, it is also reassurance that it is not a talent issue, although the talent level does need to increase overall.
At what point will the validation be complete?
I agree with substance of what has been stated about the previous coaching staff but how long will we continue to beat this horse? When can we move on?
by glommer on Aug 23, 2010 2:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Perhaps when we have a year of the new staff to compare year 2 of the new staff to?
This “move on” attitude is pretty silly. You have to make comparisons. Why is something new? Because it’s not what the old group was doing.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Aug 23, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
when it silences the very loud voice saying "FSU should have given the winningest coach in CFB one more year!"
and “The fans were spoiled by Bobby Bowden!” as the voice of fools trying to revise history with half the facts. Ideally, such a travesty will not happen to FSU again.
proud graduate of the Uncle Rico Quarterback Camp
by PeachTreeNole on Aug 23, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed, and I'll also throw in the voices of
fans/alumni from other schools (Miami and UF, especially) who ask questions like “So how do you feel about what they did to Bobby?”
Pardon me if I don’t take input about my team from people who would benefit from a certain event occurring at my expense.
My answer to that question is always the same
I think they were too kind to Bobby. They overpaid him for years and let him hire his unqualified family and friends who ran a once dominant and proud program into the ground. He held FSU hostage and milked them for money because his other not so bright son talked him into some awful investments. In a few years I am sure I will be able to remember the good Bobby, but until then all I can remember is the arrogant fool who put himself above the program and for that lost all of my respect.
2010 The beginning of the next great decade for FSU football
by BS37FSU on Aug 23, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
NO denying it is a fact
the fans were spoiled by Bobby Bowden. He set the standard, and he mentioned it years ago. He said if he stopped winning ten games a year people would say he was too old. Sure enough that is what happened.
That's not what happened
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Aug 24, 2010 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not what happened at all
said if he started losing more than a couple games a year he ’couldn’t stand it’ and it would be time to quit. LIE!
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 24, 2010 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Did you read the Carter interview?
The whole thing is redirecting blame and “woe is me I only have freshmen running backs”
Did you ever even play the game? I guarantee I can coach my Little League team to beat yours 10 times out of 10.
by Caveman Mafia on Aug 23, 2010 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
On this point:
Expectations on the practice field are higher.
There is one shift that has been noted (perhaps as early as last spring?) that I think has been understated in terms of the dividends it could pay — the concept of several units practicing simultaneously: 1s vs. 3s and 2s vs. 4s.
When I was a walk-on in 1998, practice was generally pretty slow-paced. During individual/one-on-one drills, everything went along at a decent clip, but when running group drills (skeleton or 11-on-11), you would find yourself standing around quite a bit.
So, I wonder…. are these guys getting 30-40% more live reps than a player might have experienced under the former circumstances? What type of effect is the equivalent of an extra week+ of practice going to have on the pace at which the defense can learn the new scheme? Are we going to be a lot farther along because of this?
As long as we have enough eyes watching all that is going on and players are getting sufficient instruction in this framework (which, given the micromanaging nature of Fisher you would have to expect is the case), this could be our ace-in-the-hole for how this team looks coming out of the gates.
I think this is the case. No sense in having 80+ watch 22 run a play.
If you have a finite amount of practice time, you have to look for ways to maximize it. This makes too much sense. I’m not sure what the drawback is. Perhaps the previous regime was unwilling to hire the support staff to make this work right.
There's part of it that I'm not sure about.
The way it was run back in the day was to have the offense running against a scout team defense on one field, and the defense running against a scout team offense on the other, So, technically, we are talking about 22 + 22 players in action even back then.
However, it was the 1st and 2nd team alternating against the respective scout team O/D — which included 3rd teamers down through the walk-ons. So, the 1st team offensive/defensive units would be getting probably 60%+ of the reps, with the 2nd team picking up the balance.
I think they must now have 4 different groups running simultaneously,
1st O (11) vs. 3rd D (11) = 22
2nd O (11) vs. 4th D (11) = 22
1st D (11) vs. 3rd O (11) = 22
2nd D (11) vs. 4th O (11) = 22
TOTAL = 88 guys in action at once?
And, at least in terms of how I remembered it going, it would seem that the biggest dividends would be realized by the 2nd teamers, who, instead of getting the scraps after the 1st team was done, are now getting an equivalent number of reps: e.g., 1st teamers go from 65% of snaps to 100%, and 2nd teamers go from 35% of snaps to 100%.
In your opinion
Why did the second and sometimes third stringers, that subbed into games, seem good to go, even though it is obvious from what you have told us, they did not get to practice as much against first team opposition?
Also, did the scout teams actually emulate the opposition for the week or just run the same basic plays each week?
Scout teams having meetings and film review just like the starters. They run the other teams offense or defense and really try to give the best look they can.
What he said.
Scout team unit swould have separate film sessions with the GAs and go over that week’s opponent’s film, get our assignments for who/how we would emulate, etc., and then run those plays against the “real” team.
I think the 3rd teamers got to run plays if other players got gassed, injured, etc., in addition to position coaches simply subbing in as necessary to get guys reps that needed them. So it wasn’t an explicit set of 11 guys comprising a unit; everybody else was waiting in the wings and position coaches would sub as necessary.
actually
As a youth football coach I made sure every player was engaged in practice and every other coach I knew did the same.
It is inexcusable for a college program to have players standing around at a practice unless you are demonstrating a point, like angles of pursuit or something .
Another point to add to yours is the use of tape to breakdown practices
I’m not sure but am pretty sure Jimbo records every practice his assistants are expected to breakdown the tape allowing them to have a better understanding of where guys are. This could happen under the old regime because of the time commitment required on the part of the coaches. I’ve been told the D Staff went from a 50-60 HR week to 80-90.
FSU football is the new case study for the outliners phenomon
Defensive Depth Chart Speculation
Some (mostly) uninformed speculation….
SDE
White, Werner
WDE
Jenkins, Hicks
DT
Dawkins, McAllister
NG
McDaniel, McCloud
WILL
Alexander, Williams, Jones
MIKE
Smith, Luc
SLB
Bradham, Williams, Jones
BCB
Rhodes, Harris
FCB
Reid, Joyner
FS
Jenije, Harley, Demps
SS
Parks, Moody, Harley, Demps
I'd have
Parks and Moody as the starters, with Demps and Jenije backing them up, and Harley behind Jenije
Since Moody is out, that would make
Parks and Jenije the starters, with Demps and Harley backing them up.
At LB, I’d have
SAM: Bradham, Jones
MIKE: Williams, Luc
WILL: K. Smith, Alexander
This is exactly what I have except
I have Williams ahead of Luc. Heard Luc is not progressing as fast as some might have thought. Freshmen.
and Jenije is ahead of Moody and both are playing the same spot.
also Harris and Joyner are flipflopping at both crner spots
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Aug 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
response to FSU44
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Aug 23, 2010 10:14 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly
You project Williams as the primary backup at all 3 LB spots right now?
No Jones is the backup to one of the outside spots.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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Any word on Harley?
His attitude toward the changes wasn’t the greatest last I heard
by westcoastnolefan on Aug 23, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
so is it pretty much consensus that hicks is ahead of toshomon?
i dont think ive seen one depth chart w/ tosh ahead of hicks..
Can we expect Toshmon 2.0 to contribute
seriously though, can we? He’s bulked up well under Vic….
Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....
I have been looking at Alabama's history since Saban has arrived as somewhat of a blueprint for what to expect.
Granted, I know the situations were not the same but the similarities in overall leaders are remarkably close. I expect us to struggle at times, similiar to Bama the first year as we are learning so many new things. But just like Bama’s second year, I expect us to have a very high ceiling next year….ACC championship should be almost given if we continue to progress as expected and hopes for even more are not a stretch.
or a BAMA vs FSU
performance? Ouch…
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 23, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I've thought of this too, but think about this...
Our roster is far more loaded with talent than ‘07 Bama. Saban was rebuilding from essentially scratch. We’ve got a lot of undeveloped talent on both sides of the ball.
Jimbo also has a head start in that he was able to recruit for a few years in the program. The offense is elite, the defense needs to catch up. I don’t think there is as much of a culture change either as Jimbo was able to institue some things.
Bama was actually pretty loaded. Shula did a good job of recruiting, especially considering they were on probation.
I have a hard time saying we have elite players on offense
some of them are now elite – Ponder – Hudson – but not when they were recruited – and the contributers – some were young and highly rated – are generally not going to the NFL – I do not think we have seen what Jimbo’s guys can do when the high star talent are JRs and Srs. The best is yet to come – imagine if Ponder had this freshman crop of receivers his JR and Sr year – and they were Jrs and Srs too.
I can agree with Ponder/Hudson
But Fortson a 1st rounder?
Note: Arguing just for the sake of argument.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
hahaha
Right on.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
I think he was a legit late 1st round/early 2nd round talent
Then again, I’m no Mel Kiper
I'd have agreed at the end of last season (and I did think so at the time)
but after looking at the potential draft for WRs this year (2011 draft), he would’ve been at best a late 2nd rd pick and more than likely a 3rd rd pick even if he had a phenomenal year (phenomenal defined as 70+ catches, 1200+ yds and 12+ tds).
Draft class for WRs is too deep. There are 5 WRs that he couldn’t pass even with those numbers and another potential 3-4 that he’d be fighting life and death for to pass with them. This is the deepest WR class in a very long time for the upcoming draft.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher
Things are going smoothly now
But we must remember Fisher does not have the head coach experience Saban does. When a bump in the road arises, that is when we will see if he is as good.
I really don't want to post this link to give the idiot who posted it any hits, but I will, only for the purpose of proving what morons walk amongst us in the Seminole Nation, and the kind of mentality this site is forewarning against.
This POS was brought to the attention of the rest of the TN staff by editor fsu44, and obviously he did not post it for a reason, but some of the comments I read here and especially elsewhere shows how ignorant some of the FSU faithful are, and how loyal to Bowden some out there remain to this very day, and I felt I should share with the rest of the members here to show what we are up against.
Fisher has not even coached his first game as head coach and this shit is already out there.
Granted there is a chance this was posted by a rival troll looking to stir shit up in Tally, but I really doubt it.
WARNING, if you watch this bullshit, it will make you mad and could ruin your morning. Again though, I am only posting to prove the point many of us here believe, that there are those who will never let go of the past, and will never give Fisher a fair chance. So keep that in mind and try not to let this garbage ruin your morning like it did mine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z5wqUI_haI&NR=1
I apologize if my language offended anyone, and if so, flag this comment and it may be deleted.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
by FrankDNole on Aug 23, 2010 11:19 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Offended
I would only be offended if you lacked passion in vilifying this mentality.
You passed with flying colors Frank :)
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
Rec'd as proof you have to be honest about the 09 season
Even if it means consistently calling out the coaches that failed the program (Carter, Amato, etc.).
Christian Ponder: Your favorite quarterback's favorite quarterback.
by Jamil Dawson on Aug 23, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Not 100
percent sold this was done by an FSU fan (Bowden/FSU fan would probably turn comments on so they could keep spewing insanity to people trying to correct them). But never the less, people that think like this exist. Eff’em, don’t need’em.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 23, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
At first I thought it might be troll work, but then I viewed his other video and it had a lot of BB getting fired stuff.
I think it’s a deranged Nole.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
Yikes.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 23, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I would say that this is a very rare exception but....
I must have run into his wife at the alumni luncheon because she was spouting off all kinds of ridiculous nonsense about how a legend was run off, it was Jimbo’s fault, she hopes we lose every game, refuses to wear the colors anymore…..you name it…she said it. And she had a crony there agreeing to every word she said. Now this would not bother me so much except that I happen to know that she is somewhat involved in some parts of FSU where this type of dialogue can be destructive.
Tell his wife to shut up and get me a beer....
in that order!!!
You should have asked her
If the rest of Ann’s sewing circle came along with her. Yeah I am sarcastic SOB
Bring back Peter Tom Willis
Ann say hello to the grand kids
How in the world did some of that stuff get recorded?
Is that Coach Trickett? I have to wonder really.
I doubt it. Some of it sounds like it came from a movie I once saw, but I can't remember and don't have the time to look it up. Also the voices sound different.
Obviously someone with an agenda.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
That is various movies clips
None of that crap is from our coaches.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 23, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry,
Movie clip mentioned below and Pro football coach meltdowns…
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 23, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Jim Mora is prominent in that clip
Christian Ponder: Your favorite quarterback's favorite quarterback.
by Jamil Dawson on Aug 23, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
HAHA yup,
could picture his face but couldn’t remember his name.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 23, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I really don't want my morning ruined.
So Ill wait till before dinner, have a couple beers, watch it and then sulk.
"…You can't get enough Lonnie Pryors on your football team." -Eddie Gran
Suggestion, watch it before the Sunshine special at 8 PM and you will soon forget all about it.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
Troll
I think it was posted by some douche just trying to stir it up. If it was a true Bowned support, they would have more class than to post trash like that.
On a point-counterpoint angle about the offense versus defense debate: How many shining performances did the Offense have last season: several. How many did the defense have: NONE. How much progress did the offense make: A lot. Meanwhile, the defense probably regressed throughout the season…
Just listened to it
The voice is Nick Nolte. From my search it must be North Dallas Forty, which FWIW is supposed to be an awesome book to read on the Cowboys of the early 70s.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Aug 23, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Although it was set in Dallas
I always figured the two main characters were based on Stabler and Biletnikoff
"Lock up your daughter, lock up your wife, lock up your back door, and run for your life" - Bon Scott
by SeminoleMike on Aug 23, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Really wish
That guy had comments turned on so I could post this.
Cause eww wee, after a speech like that, with Amato’s gum smacking being the next most audible noise to the crickets, I’d be ready to tear me some Boston College Eagle heads off…
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 23, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Meh
Meh, there are always wackos in every fan base. No sense in getting riled up about it.
It IS possible (I’m not saying that it’s likely) that FSU doesn’t progress over the next couple of years and Jimbo gets pushed out the door. I happen to believe in CJF, but there’s still that chance. I fully believe if that happened, the level headed FSU blogs out there would point out the problems and want them solved. To me that’s what happened with Bowden, it wasn’t some witch hunt by the “young fans” out there. It was right vs. wrong. Right finally won out.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand." - Wes Westrum, Mets Manager
You got it.
People here see the positive changes we are all familiar with. But it isn’t like Fisher gets a free ride. If for whatever reason there is no progress or a little progress and then a plateau, this site and the members, will be upset. They will want things fixed.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 23, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah just playing gator's advocate here
But Jimbo did make some mistakes last year. On the other hand, he seemed to learn from them and not repeat them unlike a previous head coach who apparently no longer needs to be criticized.
Likewise, Jimbo gets a little credit in his bank as a new head coach.
Full steam ahead Frank
And one big reason don’t move on as they say is because BB not only did not want to move on, he wanted the boosters to buy out Jimbo Fisher so he could keep the status quo and keep all his friends on the payroll. Frankly I love it when people need to be educated.
I was told I didn’t really understand what was going on, Bobby knew his stuff, if he thought Jeff was the man for offensive coordinator he certainly knew more about it than me, blah blah blah, when Jeff was hired. Some how some way I just knew FSU football wasn’t going to be quite as much fun in the coming years. I was right too.
So here we are, ticket sales down, 7 win seasons and some seemingly not able to understand why. I think anyone here will tell you I defended Jimbo from day one and never wavered because I knew he was the best hope we had going. I was called an idiot for that too. But hey somebody had to do it.
Bring back Peter Tom Willis
Ann say hello to the grand kids
Did I say this before?
It was obvious we had a man had achieved success and built a great program but was now ready for his family to cash in on it.
Bring back Peter Tom Willis
Ann say hello to the grand kids
You weren't kidding....
about ruining someone’s day… made me wish we could find the person who posted the video, let bradham watch the video, then put the guy on the scout team for a day wearing a jersey saying “i posted it”… followed by the paramedics peeling the guy off the field!
No way that is Fisher
I can understand what the guy is saying. Jimbo talks too fast for me to follow. I know Fisher has a southern accent but it is a different dialect than mine.
Bring back Peter Tom Willis
Ann say hello to the grand kids
Great read Bud.
I am extremely pumped for the season to get underway! You guys, as well as some other FSU media have been really high on Xavier during fall camp, and I am really excited to see what the kid can do once the games start!
Bud, where do you think we would be now had Jimbo been HC last year?
I know there are many things that would be different if Bowden stepped down after the ‘08 season rather than last year—different assistant coach availability, etc. At the same time an active, modern head coach would’ve been at the helm who would’ve still brought in competent (perhaps better) assistant coaches and run the whole organization better. Without “what-iffing” this to death (for example, Gary Brown & Stinson would’ve gone to FSU, hence better d-line depth, etc) I’m curious of your thoughts… And maybe this requires too big of a comment to detail.
I just remember the former FloridaStateOfMind saying back in 2008 that 2010 was going to be a solid run at a BCS bowl & top-10 finish, but that was with the thought that Bowden was done after that season.
I'd say 10-2 and ACC champs.
Basically 2008 Bama but with a tougher schedule (bama faced a 6-6 clemson, 3 cupcakes, kentucky, Tennessee that missed a bowl, MissState under croom’s last year).
big differences would be 2 years in offseason program, better depth, etc.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Aug 23, 2010 11:39 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Now let's the opposite
What do you think would have happened had BB stayed on for his “last year?” This isnt meant as a bash.
A shift towards even more rock bottom.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
I dont know how much further we could have gotten
The only thing that wasnt rock bottom last year was the offense. I doubt we would have landed JWJ and we’d probably only have about 5-6 commits at this point.
Tough to say
Who is our DC? Amato, Stoops, someone else?
I’ll go out on a limb and say that if Bobby comes back but doesn’t agree to the terms of his final season, the bowl streak ends, the stadium is half full for most games, ESPN is all over the fall of the Noles, fans have even more apathy and less end up coming back in the short run, we get waxed by UF once again, and it gets real ugly b/w Spetman Cornole, the trustees and BB. This isn’t even to mention the recruits we keep/lose if BB had stayed.
If BB would’ve agreed, I think the record is only 2 games different but we lose a year of developing the program and acquiring talent.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Aug 23, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
6-6 again, probably.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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The difference between 2009 and 2010 is:
last year we had talent, but no discipline and no depth. This year we still have talent, have gained discipline but still lack depth.
In 2011 we will have talent, discipline and inexperienced depth; in 2012 we will have talent, discipline and experienced depth in 2012. For 2013 and thereafter, repeat 2012.
Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....
Loved this line...
The focus has been on technique and not making plays
What do you mean – go out and make a play is coaching at its finest! ;)
I really find it hard to comprehend the fact that Dexter Carter played RB his entire life but couldn’t coach the position. How does that happen?
but not retarded,
and that’s the important thing :)
proud graduate of the Uncle Rico Quarterback Camp
by PeachTreeNole on Aug 23, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
After watching Nip Tuck
I hope I never get the Yips
by freshcollegeboy on Aug 23, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Thats not the same thing...
it would be like Tiger not being able to help someone with their swing…at least IMO.
Alabama running backs are young.....
And they seem to know what the OL is doing(All-Access)….
FEAR THE SPEAR!!!!!!!!!
Though he did speak of intensity, Andrews also spoke of winning their gap
meaning gap control. That does indicate there is a plan, but the players were not good enough to execute. Other schemes may have helped some last year, but the poor defensive line and safeties would have made it hard for Stoops or anyone else either. Bud attacks Andrews for not visiting other schools which technically may be true, but failed to repeat other reports that Andrews visited NFL teams to study their defenses. Thus he brought back the Prowler package. As we saw, that new idea did not always help. 2008 was not great, but not awful. One bad year does not prove coaches incompetent. It proves lack of talent for that one year. Unfortunately some people on here can get away with snipes because there is no redo this year with different talent for Andrews, etc. Good year or not, he was likely gone and I think people should respect that.
Incompetent Remarks
I don’t think those are necessarily aimed at Mickey Andrews. He was just a man who was manipulated into over-staying his time. His heart wasn’t in the game anymore and nobody can fault him for that.
I think the incompetent remarks made by a majority of members on this forum are aimed squarely at Jody Allen and Chuck Amato.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
Actually I did report those
I was the one who asked him those questions at media day.
You can say “gap control” but the overwhelming evidence is that it was not stressed. It wasn’t a priority like, say, intensity.
Also, I’ve defended Mickey quite a bit because he was under some difficult circumstances. His 2008 defense, however, wasn’t anything special and he had 7 or 8 seniors in the two-deep.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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Now Amato
On the other hand may have failed at teaching technique at linebacker, which may have had a hand in making the defense look bad. Thus if the linebackers are bad, again scheme is not so much to blame.
As Jimbo Fisher stated, “I don’t know that it was a fundamental problem. You’re talking about one of the greatest coordinators in college football history. And he had one year where his stats didn’t match,” and “Sometimes things happen. We’re different philosophically in that we’re more zone-oriented now, we’re more read-oriented — not as penetrating. Teams [that] still do the penetration, play man, are very successful … [it was] just one of those years.”
Fisher and him are very good friends
Of course he won’t say “the scheme was archaic and our rivals built their attacks to beat it and we did nothing to adjust”
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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Coach Andrews
coming to a practice made my day. I’m sure the players were very happy to see him still take interest in the program. I’ll remember Mickey as one of the greatest.
I won't knock Mickey
We know Fisher asked him to stay to save us from the chest. Mickey went through some terrible family problems and at his age just couldn’t get out there and recruit like he used to either and that is why we were a little short on defensive talent the last few years. It was hard for him to adjust to some of the new schemes also. But anyway it is over.
I am glad to see him take an interest in the program and still come around. If I saw BB coming around I would hire Fisher a food taster.
Bring back Peter Tom Willis
Ann say hello to the grand kids
Teams [that] still do the penetration, play man, are very successful … [it was] just one of those years."
That’s BS. Nobody out there is doing what FSU did. Everyone still plays some man, of course.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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and now he'll run along and tell his friends
you just won’t listen to “facts” :)
proud graduate of the Uncle Rico Quarterback Camp
by PeachTreeNole on Aug 24, 2010 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Mike Harris
why is mike harris not listed on the roster – either on TN or seminoles.com? it seems as though the roster is updated immediately after a player is removed (Carr, Allen, Fortson) but not after mike was cleared to play?!?
He is listed on our roster
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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Thanks Bud, I must be blind because I don't see him listed on either site...
Oh well, as long as he can play – that’s all I care about!
Left sidebar is the roster we maintain
Use that one.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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By the way
If they had bought out Fisher, FSU would be looking at 0-12, considering giving up football and Wetherell would be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. Terry Bowden would probably be just taking the reigns to chart the new course and passing out cds on campus outlining how to achieve success. Many of our fans would be saying Fisher was another Zook and wouldn’t have done the job anyway. Some of our fans are clueless, let’s face it. I am not only looking for a good year to shut up gator fans but our own as well.
Bring back Peter Tom Willis
Ann say hello to the grand kids
I am with ya Doc.
Of course you and I have been saying pretty much the same things about Fisher for years. He proved us right last year and things look to be headed in the right directions so far. I am a lttle nervous to be drinking so much of the koolaide this early.
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