Nole Perspective: Oklahoma Sooners Preview 2010
I started the opponent preview series last year when it became clear that many of our readers had no idea what they were talking about when discussing FSU's opponents. I hope this leads to some informed discussion of Oklahoma.
Oklahoma went 8-5 last year, but was a much better team than most 9-4 or 10-3 squads out there. Some really bad injury luck conspired to stop the Sooner Scooner before it ever got rolling. Off a 2008 season that saw a record-setting offense and a trip to the National Championship Game, people had high hopes for the Sooners. But Oklahoma would lose 5 games in what was a disaster of a season, considering the circumstances. In this preview I will briefly mention 2009 and will focus mostly on 2010.
Oklahoma has consistently been one of the best offenses in the country over the last half-decade. Stoops has a real talent for finding excellent offensive coordinators, be it Mike Leach, Mark Mangino, or Kevin Wilson. Wilson came to Oklahoma from Northwestern and he brings a pro-style spread attack that often plays a very fast no-huddle pace. Ideally, the Sooners look to stay balanced. After having one of the best offenses in the history of college football in 2008, the Oklahoma attack failed to crack the top-50 last season.
I start my preview with the offensive line. It is the most important unit on the team, and is comprised of 5 starting positions. In 2008, Oklahoma had what some called the best offensive line in college football history. While that claim was silly, OU's line did feature multiple NFL draft choices and was the best in football.
But 4 members of that line graduated. And those members were a 1st-Team All Big 12 Tackle, a 1st-Team All-Big 12 guard, a 2nd team All-Big 12 Center, and a honorable mention All-Big 12 Guard. I've never seen a team lose that much offensive line talent in a single year. It would be like FSU losing Alex Barron and Ray Willis in the same year (this did happen in the middle part of this decade), and also losing two all-conference guards in the same year. Oklahoma had a tall task to replace all that offensive line talent. But the replacements hadn't played much at all, because the all-star lineup remained perfectly healthy, and because Oklahoma also lost two backups to graduation as well.
But Oklahoma did have Trent Williams, an All-Big 12 left tackle returning. And after that? At center OU had a tiny freshman center and a Colorado State transfer long-snapper. At Guard, they had an inexperienced but talented Sophomore in Stephen Good, a dependable senior in Brian Simmons, a JUCO, and 2 freshmen. The other tackle spot had three contenders. First, was the highly-touted Donald Stephenson. Also in the mix were Junior Cory Brandon and LSU transfer Jarvis Jones, a sophomore.
Nobody was expecting a repeat performance from 2008, but neither were they expecting the calamity that was to come. When a program has a tremendous lineup of seniors, it's difficult to accumulate quality depth behind those seniors. And that problem was exposed from the opening day of camp. OU suffered multiple injuries that kept starters out of camp. The Oklahoma line had talent, but it didn't have an opportunity to develop the chemistry that is so crucial for effective offensive line play. And further troubling was that camp was being used to determine who the starters would be, which wouldn't have allowed for much gelling even if the lineups could have been quickly determined. One thing did become clearer, however, when the ultra-talented Stephenson got himself suspended for the year.
Starting a lineup that lacked any semblance of health, chemistry or experience, Oklahoma allowed 5 sacks to a very average BYU defense in the opener. Oklahoma was absolutely more talented than BYU, but the Cougar defense is a complex 3-4 scheme and Oklahoma often had two men blocking one defender while another defender exploded into the Sooner backfield untouched. One of those miscommunications would change the course of Oklahoma's season as a BYU blitzer wrecked the shoulder of Heisman Trophy winner Sam Bradford. Oklahoma lost the game to BYU. BYU didn't beat Oklahoma. The Sooners literally gave BYU the game because the Oklahoma offensive line was a mess. 10 offensive line penalties and 5 sacks allowed to open the season.
The line would continue to be in varying states of disarray throughout the season. Williams would start all 13 games at left tackle, but a tight end would start 7 games for OU on the oline. 5 players would start a game at guard. Two at center. And two different players split starts at right tackle. In all, Oklahoma started 10 different lineups in 13 games.
But as the season wore on, and the line began to get healthier, the Sooners talent began to shine through a bit. It would have been difficult not to given the talent level. Some quality players began to separate themselves from the pack. Ben Habern, the scrawny redshirt-freshman center held his own given his size and experience level. This year he has bulked up to 290 lbs, an impressive gain of 15 lbs. OU people think he will continue to improve and should anchor the center of the line, if he can avoid ankle troubles. Stephen Good was, excuse the pun, quite good for OU last season at guard, starting 7 games and playing in all 13. The 6'6" 310 lb Good was selected as 1st-team ALL- Big 12 by Phil Steele. Tyler Evans is perhaps the weak link at right guard, but he did play in 12 games last year, starting 4 of them. The coaches were extremely excited to get the 6'6" 290 lb Stephenson back from suspension and he is slated to start at left tackle, ahead of Jarvis Jones. That's a very nice combination of talent and experience at the left tackle spot. And Jones could also fill in at right tackle, where Senior Cory Brandon will start. The 6'7" 315 lb Brandon started 8 games last year and he looked better this Spring, now healthy. Brandon is your typical huge right tackle who isn't overly mobile but can do a nice job on in-line run blocking. BlatantHomerism.com informs me that Jones might have pulled ahead of Brandon with the better Summer.
Oklahoma's offensive line was one of the biggest problems for the Sooners last season. But this group is talented and should be much improved assuming it doesn't fall victim to ridiculous injuries hampering its ability to work together as a unit. This should be one of the better offensive lines FSU will face this season, along with Florida and Boston College.
As I discussed above, that offensive line allowed the greatest football casualty of the 2009 season. Sam Bradford is one of the best quarterbacks in the history of college football. He won the Heisman in 2008. But when he separated his shoulder in the opening game against BYU, Oklahoma's offense was immediately in trouble. Landry Jones, a 6'4" 215 lb redshirt-freshman entered the game. And though he was a mega-recruit, he was not able to play like the Heisman-Trophy Winner. Bradford would play only 8 total quarters for Oklahoma (of a possible 104). Jones would have a very nice season for a freshman quarterback, completing 261 of 449 passes for 3200 yards and 26 TDs with 14 INTs. But that nice freshman season went unnoticed because it paled in comparison to what was expected of the returning Heisman winner.
We know that the biggest improvement for a quarterback comes in the sophomore year. Jones has the ability to be an excellent quarterback. He has good size and a good arm. He didn't make a disproportionate amount of boneheaded decisions for a freshman. He is not a major threat with his legs, but he isn't a statue. For an FSU reference, I would compare his running ability to that of Wyatt Sexton. One interesting note here is that Oklahoma's coaches call all the checks. Like a high-school team, Oklahoma looks to the sidelines for its checks or audibles. That takes pressure off Jones. Jones will be one of the better quarterbacks FSU will face this year and he is in the group with Brantley, Harris, Wilson, and Parker.
I won't get heavily into OU's backups at the quarterback position because this game is played so early in the year, making it unlikely that Jones would be injured going into the game. They have two talented but young backups. If Jones goes down, OU will not be able to volley with FSU.
For all the talk about Oklahoma's struggles in the passing game, and there were some, the bigger problem was the rushing game. The top-10 rushing game in 2008 plummeted to outside the top 80 in 2009, thanks mostly to the aforementioned offensive line struggles. Gone is Chris Brown (189 carries for 749 yards). But the Sooners do return Demarco Murray. Murray qualifies for the 10th-year senior award, given annually to the player who has seemingly played for an entire decade. Murray is a very talented back who has battled injuries over the last two years, including a hamstring surgery last season (again, Oklahoma's 2009 season was sunk with injuries). While he didn't always miss games, he was limited in his use and was unable to play at full speed. Still, he made 2nd-team All-Big 12. Murray is one of the best backs FSU will see all season. He's a rock-solid 6'0" 215 lbs, with a good blend of power and some wiggle as well. Murray has 2500 yards in his career, and now that he is finally healthy Stoops has said he will look to get him 300+ carries. Murray is also a true receiving threat, with 100+ catches and 1000+ yards in his career. Quite simply, Murray is one of the premier backs in the country when healthy. Many have forgotten about Murray as he has struggled to stay healthy for much of the last two seasons, but overlooking one of the best backs in the country would be a big mistake as he looks to be primed for a great senior year.
The backups are less settled here, though Stoops comments lead me to believe that OU will rotate its backs much less this year.
Depth is not a question at receiver as Oklahoma is loaded to the gills. Ryan Broyles is one of the best receivers in the country with 1800 yards over 120 catches in his first two seasons. He was limited last year with a fractured shoulder blade (there's that freak injury bug again). Broyles is extremely difficult for any college defensive back to cover and Oklahoma does a great job of moving the 5'11" 180 lb weapon all over the field. In their 3-wide set, Broyles typically plays the slot.
The other two positions are manned by a talented fivesome. First is 6'2" 181 lb Jazz Reynolds who caught 13 balls for 256 yards last year. Dejuan Miller stands 6'4" 224 and grabbed 36 balls for 434 yards last season. 6'1" Senior Brandon Caleb actually started 6 games last season and hauled in 26 passes for 408 yards. JUCO transfer Cameron Kenney caught 22 for 268. Finally, freshman Kenny Stills was one of the best recruits in the country and some at OU believe he can quickly work his way into the lineup. Stills is probably the only one of this group who scares a defense in terms of big-play potential, but the group is extremely solid and few teams can spread the field like Oklahoma can with 4 or 5 wide receivers.
Oklahoma did not lose TE Jermaine Gresham, a first round draft choice, because he tore up his knee in the pre-season and didn't play a single down for Oklahoma. You'll see a lot of ignorant broadcasters and writers citing the loss of 4 first round draft choices, but two of those draft choices really didn't play at all (Gresham 0 snaps and Bradford only 8 quarters). That said, Oklahoma's tight end situation is unproven. 6'3" 230 lb junior Trent Ratteree started 4 games last year and is essentially a wide receiver. Eric Mesnik could play offensive line, but as of now is listed as a tight end. At 6'6 285 lbs, he is an enormous tight end. If Oklahoma uses Mesnik at tight end, that could make for a really nice running formation, but still allow for the passing game to flourish with the 3-wide sets.
The bottom line is that Oklahoma has consistently had one of the 10-best offenses over the last decade. Last year was a huge aberration caused mostly by ridiculous injuries and some expected drop-off from the graduation of 4 all-conference linemen and the top two receivers. This year the Sooners once again have a lot of talent. But the QB isn't being rushed into an unfavorable situation. The receivers are not new. The running back isn't getting off-season surgery on his hamstring. And perhaps most importantly, the offensive line is not in a total state of disarray. There is no reason to think this offense will be anything but good. And it could be very good if it gets even a fraction of number of breaks to the good as it did to the bad last season. This offense is very talented, extremely well coached, and is now experienced. After its brief trip outside the top 50, I expect the Sooner attack to again be one of the 20 best in college football.
Inside, you'll find my look at the defense.
You might not have realized this, but last year's Oklahoma defense was tremendous. Behind only Alabama and perhaps Nebraska, the Sooner's defense was one of the best in the last half-decade. That shouldn't come as a surprise with a defensive mastermind in head coach Bob Stoops and excellent co-DCs Brent Venables and Bobby Jack-Wright. Oklahoma's defense has been the same for years now. They combine tremendous recruiting with excellent player development and a zone scheme that allows for a lot of flexibility.
This year the Sooner's defense should again be excellent, but it is unlikely to be one of the two or three best in the country. Let's take a look at what the Sooners bring to the table.
It starts up front for Oklahoma. Everyone knows about Gerald McCoy, the #3 overall draft choice at defensive tackle. Oklahoma can't replace him fully, but they can come fairly close. If a program like Oklahoma State lost a guy like McCoy, it would be different. But this is Oklahoma, and that means a new set of monsters is set to step in. OU does return three of its four defensive line starters, so let's take a look at them first.
6'3" 260 lb Senior Jeremy Beal is a flat-out stud at end. He is again a lock for 1st-team All-Big 12 and last year was 3rd-team All-America. He is in the class of players with Bowers of Clemson and Ojomo if Miami, though not as good as Robert Quinn of UNC (probably the best player in all of college football). On the other side is 6'4" 260 lb junior Frank Alexander. Alexander is a very nice compliment to Beal and really came on at the end of last season. Sophomore David King and redshirt freshman Justin Chaisson are very highly regarded recruits who can fill in in a pinch. I focus less on depth for a game like this because Oklahoma is not likely to be losing players for the FSU game due to the early-season date. Oklahoma's end tandem is one of the best in the country and the matchup between Beal and rising FSU superstar offensive tackle Andrew Datko should provide plenty of fireworks.
Defensive tackle poses a few questions and the answers could vary greatly. As I noted above, replacing McCoy is extremely difficult. But if anyone can do it, it's Jamarkus McFarland. McFarland was the #2 rated DT recruit in 2009 and played in 7 games last year. Like McCoy, he is extremely quick. Unlike McCoy, the 6'2" 300 lb McFarland is not yet a proven commodity. It's unrealistic to expect the sophomore to equal the production of the #3 overall pick in the draft. At the other tackle spot is Adrian Taylor. Taylor is really interesting because he could have headed to the NFL draft as well, but he snapped his leg in the bowl game. Now the 6'4" 295 lb Senior will be available for August camp. But there's a big difference between being in camp and playing like a star in early September. If Taylor is 100% healthy and playing great early in the year, then the rest of the country needs to look out because OU's defense will again be elite. If not, it could open the door for an early-season upset. Oklahoma has a pair of very talented defensive tackles behind Taylor and McFarland. Casey Walker is a 300 lb sophomore who should see some reps, particularly if Taylor is not 100%.
Much like what FSU's defensive line will do under Mark Stoops, Bob Stoops has his defensive line drop into pass coverage early and often. But they are still asked to play traditional DL techniques and are quite good against both the run and the pass.
For as long as Stoops has been at OU, he has had excellent linebackers. Last year was no different, as they lose Ryan Reynolds (honorable mention Big 12) and Keenan Clayton. But they return Travis Lewis. And what a player Lewis is. After winning Big 12 rookie of the year in 2008, he garnered 1st-team honors last season. Lewis has made 250 tackles in only two years and is a tremendous player. Think of him as Nigel Bradham, but with better agility. On the Strongside is Ronnell Lewis. This 6'2" 234 lb sophomore is a huge hitter and was probably the nation's best linebacker recruit of 2008 (along with FSU's Bradham). Lewis started the Bowl game and some at OU believe he is even better than the departed Keenan Clayton (4th round choice of the Eagles). FSU will need to watch for Ronnell on the zone blitzes. In the middle is redshirt freshman Tom Wort. Wort was all set to play last season before tearing his ACL. If there is a question among the linebackers, it is here. Wort isn't the biggest linebacker at only 220 lbs, but I suspect Oklahoma will play a lot of Nickel against FSU.
Oklahoma also has some very talented backups in Austin Box, Jaydin Bird, and Daniel Franklin. This linebacker group is scary good and is an embarrassment of riches. I would rate it behind only UNC among the teams on FSU's schedule and it is absolutely up there with UF, BC (Herzlich & Keuchly), Miami, and Maryland (you probably didn't realize how loaded Maryland is at linebacker).
An elite defense is typically solid in all three areas and Oklahoma is similarly talented in the secondary.
OU has one of the best safeties in the country in Senior Quinton Carter. Carter made 2nd-team All Big 12 last season and will lead the secondary this year from his free safety position. Carter has excellent range and is a comparable player to some of the guys Miami and Florida will throw out, though he is not as good as Clemson's McDaniel or UNC's Williams. At the other safety spot is Sam Proctor. Proctor is a talented safety in his own right and is a very capable player. Both Carter and Proctor are multi-year starters.
If there's a concern or a question for the OU secondary it is at corner. Remember that OU plays mostly zone defense so losing a corner is not as detrimental as it was for FSU when FSU ran its 100% man system. At one corner is Demonte Hurst. The 5'9" 165 lb sophomore is a promising player who the coaches love. At the other spot is probably Jonathan Nelson, who was honorable-mention Big 12, or Jammell Flemming. Both are quite capable options and OU people don't seem overly worried about either spot, but until one guy steps forward there is a bit of a question. Also, note that Nelson also plays safety so if Flemming bests him for the other corner spot, look for Nelson to get work as the 5th defensive back.
Note: There's also a chance Nelson could stick at Safety and bump Proctor out. He'll be a starter somewhere.
The bottom line with this defense is that it is extremely talented, has experience, and will again be very well coached. There is no reason to expect a huge dropoff here. A mild drop off is assumed by most observers, due to the loss of McCoy. An important thing to remember is that these players have been in the system for years. Unlike FSU's defense, which is trying to learn the system in a single off-season, Oklahoma's players have been trained in this system for two or three off-seasons in most cases. It is not new to them. This defense should again be among the top 15 or better.
Oh, and Phil Steele says that Oklahoma could very well have the best special teams in the country. Personally, I am not sure. I didn't look at the special teams. If Steele is right, watch out. They are probably pretty good because the coverage teams will have good athletes. Not sure on the kicking/ punting talent.
The bottom line is that Oklahoma has out-recruited FSU during the relevant time period. They have developed players much better than FSU has over the last 4 years. They are not breaking in new coordinators or new systems on either side of the ball. Oklahoma is a more talented, better developed, more experienced team. Quite simply, they are a better football team than FSU. OU's offense will be much closer to FSU's offense than FSU's defense will be to OU's defense. And the game is in Norman. It's not that FSU has no chance, it's that the chance is slim because Oklahoma has all the makings of another elite team and FSU does not. OU might be the best team FSU plays all year. Depending on your choice of casino, Oklahoma is the 2nd or 3rd favorite to win the national championship. I don't know if OU will win the title and I don't particularly care. I do know that FSU will be expected to lose and lose big. This game is so interesting because before Phil Steele came out, many were underestimating OU. I think OU is decisively better. But I also think FSU is flying more under the radar.
We'll get into the gameplans and the matchups the week of the game. I hope you enjoyed this look at one of FSU's opponents.
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Both sound observations!
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
"I do know that FSU will be expected to lose and lose big."
“I hope you enjoyed this look at one of FSU’s opponents.”
kind of like the line: "Well, Mrs. Lincoln, other than that..how was the play?
by 93noleman on Aug 4, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
With stuff like this I'm gonna be the bell of the ball at tailgates this year....
Thanks for all the info. I send anyone who will listen to TN for football related stories.
Unfortunately
You will be looked at like you are insane and branded a false prophet. Get ready to be martyred.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
Who's going to play the roll of Judas?
by PaNole on Aug 4, 2010 10:32 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Jack Black?
FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st downs against the run. And pass. And 2nd down. And 3rd down. Ok, dammit, whenever our D is on the field.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIaORknS1Dk
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 4, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Very good job. I do think it's funny. . .
How you guys seem to outright resent those who are overoptimistic about the season. Your pointed barbs against those of the Kool-Aid persuasion are peppered throughout the posts. It just makes me chuckle sometimes. Every time someone posts “I think we can reach 10 wins” or “not saying it will happen, just saying we COULD beat Florida this year,” I can just see you guys cringing and beating on the keyboard.
“No! Don’t you understand? We’re not good yet! We’re NOT GOOD! You uneducated buffoon! Why don’t you just go watch girl’s volleyball with all that flaming, misdirected, overly-enthusiastic Rah-Rah B.S.! Be happy with 7-6! Be ecstatic with 8-4! Go over to Scout’s free board!”
Love you guys.
"There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese." -- Coach Finstock
by BigSpear on Aug 4, 2010 9:33 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
If they can back it up with facts or logic then we are fine with their opinion
But the majority of the time they can’t
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
Oh yes, I deal with the irrational every day for a living.
And they are always the most convicted about their own instincts. But in sports, these are the guys who paint themselves with glitter and get on TV as FSU’s unofficial twinkly-toed crayons. But that’s part of what we love too.
I think the site ought to consider a warning in its motto, i.e. “Tomahawk Nation: Tempering unreasonable expectations with logic and research since _[insert date of startup].”
"There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese." -- Coach Finstock
The same person who thinks we will go 12-0 and will not support their opinion with any sort of evidence and will shout us down as "negative nancies,"etc will be the first to want Jimbo fired when we do not reach their unrealistic expectations.
by MattDNole on Aug 4, 2010 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
definitely done that.
as we grow, I really struggle to strike the balance between letting the ‘’dont confuse me with the facts’’ rowd stay and learn or just sending them back to the wc free board.
fsu can win 10. It’s just really unlikely. I see major improvement at 8-4
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Aug 4, 2010 10:03 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Thanks for your time and effort, "GREAT JOB"
First, I wanted to thank you for your time and effort , the whole website is a welcomed addtion to the NOLE NATION and this 30+ year fan/grad appreciates all the hard work of ALL the people involved.
Second, I probably fall closer to the don’t confuse me with facts crowd (rowd?), however, I try to keep up and learn. After a while, all the info just seems to run together and I go with the historical (hystarical?) gut feeling, that on any given Sat. (or what ever day it is) any college team can beat any other college team?, that is why we play the games, (that and for the riches?). Your articles and the info on the website keep that outward realism/realistic expectations where it SHOULD be, but deep down inside, we HOPE for that break through suprising season, like the times before the Lost Decade?? Thanks agian to you and to all of writers and the “posters” here at TN. thistype of dicussion would would have been great in the 70’s!!! GO NOLES!!!
(Asst Div. Cdr., June 6, 1944, RLTW Rangers, Lead the Way!!)
Just wait until you're dealing with state court judges.
“Facts,” “logic” and “law” are often disregarded in ways that will test your foundational faith in the system. But good lawyers learn how to tolerate and navigate, and enjoy the “process” even if the results do not always reflect it. Ought to be familiar.
"There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese." -- Coach Finstock
by BigSpear on Aug 4, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If "Facts," "logic" and "law" can be disregarded in the judicial system, then why not on a football blog?
14-0! Damn it! Anything less is unacceptable!
Them Shooners or whatever they are called have some decent athletes, but they aren’t Florida (state) athletes. Vegas is wrong, Ponder has way more experience than Jones and Fisher will have the Noles fired up for that game.
Oh… and (FSU’s) Stoop’s cousin’s friend who is dating one of (OU’s) Stoops’ wife’s girlfriend’s nieces says that if we just play man and blitz every other play we will be fine.
….. On second thought though, you just might be right Bud. Great write-up!
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
I agree
I heard from a friend of a friend who works an illegal in-home casino that this game is a lock for FSU. Yeah he was doing a little snow at the time but I believe he knows his stuff.
by freshcollegeboy on Aug 4, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
OU's CBs
seem to be rather small (Nelson 5’11", 172 & Hurst 5’9" 165). Shouldn’t this be an area we can exploit with bigger/taller receivers?
You would think so, but
OU runs mostly zone. Those CBs would be switching off with the big safeties and vice versa.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
Perfect chance for Fortson to pull one of these

Or Throw some nasty blocks.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 4, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Exactly... I think we run the ball better this year with improved size and some more/possible more consistent options at RB
Could keep the game from getting out of hand.
Giddy-up!
HA exactly. Was looking for a good photo of that hit.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 4, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I wish Jimbo would bench him for Josh Gehres
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
When UNC and FSU get together
things like this tend to happen
by truenole87 on Aug 4, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm looking forward to this game
again in 2010 as it should, along with OK, be a great benchmark of our offense
by StM on Aug 4, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Greg Reid is 5'8"
Maybe OU is thinking the same?
Also it’s different when you play zone. A Jump ball doesn’t work nearly the same.
by freshcollegeboy on Aug 4, 2010 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions
no. we think one big one and one fast one (size optional). I believe you are right that they want the same...
sounds like they are a little down at CB this year.
Giddy-up!
Easier to do if they aren't in zone out in the flats
Going after a size advantage with somebody like Rodney Smith would work much better if he was in man coverage with one of these corners. They’ll protect them with their safeties and LB’s towards the interior of the field. I could see Jimbo trying it, though.
>>---l>
I figure
that OU’s zone will prevent that type of one-on-one mismatch from happening, but won’t the sliding of an LB/S to help out there either open up a slot in the middle?
I'm not thinking they'll slide them outside of their normal coverage slot
I’m saying that we won’t be able to isolate a one-on-one match-up by forcing a corner to cover a bigger receiver as he heads toward the middle of the field. The only time I see use really being able to use the advantage is on an outside route of a shorter variety in length, or a deeper route in some cover 3 situations.
>>---l>
Wow, unbelievable
Amazing write up, especially for not getting paid. This is bookmarked for all my Nole friends.
This has probably been addressed before, but….how similar is Mark’s zone scheme to Bob’s? To that extent, I would think this will help in Ponder and the O’s preparation.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Aug 4, 2010 9:58 AM EDT reply actions
very
but the issue I see is Bob knows exactly how much can be installed in a time frame and ou haspracticed against it for years. Mark doesn’t know what wrinkles bob will have. This is the only game I see fsu allowing 42+
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Aug 4, 2010 10:08 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
42+ from long or short drives against?
i.e. killed underneath or by big plays?
FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st downs against the run. And pass. And 2nd down. And 3rd down. Ok, dammit, whenever our D is on the field.
Gotta be long drives against
We’re all fairly firm in our belief we can score. And I have faith Hopkins will be booming out the back o’ the endzone. It’s just that 80 yards won’t be impossible for them.
Shot a Gator in Jean Shorts just to watch him die.
Agreed -- I think zone is designed to have more eyes on the play as it unfolds
i.e. less big plays, but more holes / soft spots between coverage responsibility.
FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st downs against the run. And pass. And 2nd down. And 3rd down. Ok, dammit, whenever our D is on the field.
30 TD drives of 70+ yards in just 11 D1 games is almost 3 per game
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
My hope against an outcome like this is that our OL might allow us to slow this game down.
If we can manage a few 7+ minute scoring drives, we could keep things closer.
So you're telling me I'm losing the bet I made with an OU fan last weekend
He bet me fifty bucks that OU would put 50 on the board in this game…I took the bet. I still think I’ll win it.
Nice synopsis, Bud.
Yes - all the accolades TN gets are well deserved.
Sheriff Branford: The fact that you are a sheriff is not germane to the situation.
Buford T. Justice: The god damn Germans got nothin' to do with it!
So wait,
Robert Quinn > Allen Bailey?
Only asking because it was said in a previous post that Bailey was the best player we’d see all year.
Shot a Gator in Jean Shorts just to watch him die.
it's close.
I think those two are clearly the best we will see.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
Follow Tomahawk Nation's Twitter feed!
by Bud Elliott on Aug 4, 2010 10:05 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Proofreading
“he has struggled to stay healthy for much of the last two seasons to stay healthy”
“He running back isn’t getting off-season surgery”
“Brent Venerables” (should be Venables)
can someone edit? I'm on phone.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
Follow Tomahawk Nation's Twitter feed!
by Bud Elliott on Aug 4, 2010 10:06 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think you meant
I’m on (the) phone
/I kid
by freshcollegeboy on Aug 4, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
You people are rediculous. I sometimes wonder if you are even Nole fans. You went to Bama right? Figures.
You’d have to be stupid to not think this team wins 11 games with our schedule. Nobody will touch us at home, cuz Doak is gonna be rocking this year… even UF@Gainesville. All we gotta do is beat Miami (yawn) and handle the Sooners.
Oklahoma? Are you kiding? They went 8-5 last year with the same crappy players there gonna have this year. We fixed are problems, they still have to play there’s. Besides, you think Mike doesn’t know exactly what Bob is gonna do and has been coaching our boys up this hole time? Were gonna win by 3 touchdowns and then the whole world, and you fake Nole fans, will see that the Noles are back.
This win will start are BCS run and dont think Im gonna let you guys back on the bandwagon so you can be the frontrunners you are.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 10:02 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Well hello there Nexlevel
You are back. Yay.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
What do you mean, you people?
Obvious troll is obvious.
>>---l>
by DKfromVA on Aug 4, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I thought everybody at this site was all about arguments and facts and stuff. Why are you flaming me instead of giving an argument or a single fact why Im wrong? Oh. Because you can’t. Because you know I’m right.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
you people?!
that’s racist
by DownByTheRiverWalkinOnWater on Aug 4, 2010 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes and we would kindly like facts. WE will beat Miami "yawn" because??? and OU will still be "crappy" because???
by the way their 8-5 is better than our 7-6
Giddy-up!
We don’t lose in Miami. Haven’t lost there since it was the Orange Bowl. And if your really scared of JOKE-ory Harris then I don’t know what to say. Ponder destroyed them last year.
Our defense was awewful and we still should have won that game if Jimbo knew how call a play for somebody in the red zone.
And Oklahoma? Please. Joe Gibbs said one time that you are what you are. And Oklahoma is an 8-5 team. What big change happened there that is suddenly gonna make them some great team that can’t be beat?
They haven’t seen a QB like Ponder or linebackers like Nigel and Jeff. Besides, our boys will be motivated to get revenge for that joke of an Orange Bowl game.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Harris will be a second year starter and will likely have a big jump in efficiency... I still think we win that game personally, but it's not a yawn game and we will likley be underdogs.
Giddy-up!
G5 almost broke that punks arm last year. What do you think Jeff is gonna do to him?
That skinny kid has no chance against Mike’s defense with Vic’s influence.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I believe you mean Mark's defense.
Perhaps you should get your facts together before making unsubstantiated claims and labeling others as false fans.
by Gulfport Nole on Aug 4, 2010 2:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I just submitted you for the
Dewalt Tool of the Year Award. Think you got a good shot.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 4, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Jeff?!
Are you really throwing out Jeff Luc as the uber-beast playmaker? Where have you been the last decade…
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Aug 4, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
For a site that talks about facts and logic so much there really is a lot of flaming. If you can’t add anything to the discussion then why bother?
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Your invitation is in the mail.
For the ceremony you will be sitting between the all ways trusty nail gun and the new and improved belt sander. After party is at Chilie’s.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 4, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Chile's puts on a great after party for the Dundees
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Aug 4, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
"We fixed are problems"
we are Seminoles not pirates. The word is “our” my fifteen year old friend
by 93noleman on Aug 4, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Flame away since you guys have nothing more to offer.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Here's a FACT
Lightning strikes people…
But it is pretty rare…
Team Gold!
by garnetandgold on Aug 4, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Here is another fact
We don’t have a Mike Stoops as one of our coaches. So before you try to talk about facts, get your own facts straight
2010 The beginning of the next great decade for FSU football
So I messed up one guys name. Whatever. Doesn’t change the fact that we know everything Oklahoma is gonna do and they have no idea what we have ready for them.
Anybody who can’t see that is just trying to hard.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Just a note for TN readership
The above poster is not a TN mod trying to drum up traffic and posts; he/she just happens to be a fine example of bad thinking.
FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st downs against the run. And pass. And 2nd down. And 3rd down. Ok, dammit, whenever our D is on the field.
so bob is mark's brother but mark is not bob's brother??
how does this (incredibly overstated) advantage not work both ways??
Team Gold!
by garnetandgold on Aug 4, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Mark studied everything Bob knew, then Mark went on a learned more stuff. You think Bob has suddenly gotten better in the past 5 years?
Tell that to Boise, West Virginia, and every other BCS opponent Oklahoma has had.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
What did Mark learn that Bob didn't, during the last five years?
If they were learning different things in different places, then how does one have any more advantage over the other?
Think brothers don’t talk?
Although he is unbelievably off base, I see where he's going with this.
FSU has some advantage in that Mark will be able to give us an inside perspective of exactly what OU’s defense is trying to do while there is no person on OU’s staff who could give them the same insight on FSU’s offense. That’s about the ONLY thing he has said that makes any sense.
Bring back Korey Mangum — a true Nole!
By the same token
Bob will have about as much insight into what Mark is trying to do, and there is no one at FSU who would have insight into OU’s offense.
Mark has had stops at different schools since working under Bob.
No doubt some of his philosophies have changed since then.
Bring back Korey Mangum — a true Nole!
You haven't offered anything so

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 4, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps TN can chip in and buy him his own shirt

FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st downs against the run. And pass. And 2nd down. And 3rd down. Ok, dammit, whenever our D is on the field.
by ricobert1 on Aug 4, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
HAHA
Touche Salesman.
The sad thing is IF FSU wins, I would rather hear I’m wrong from this nut job than listen to babble from Bowden sycophants if FSU loses…
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 4, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Aww somebody got his feelings hurt because his boring stats stuff isn’t the answer for everything.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Come on, you know you'd wear that shirt if all your friends here chipped in on it!
FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st downs against the run. And pass. And 2nd down. And 3rd down. Ok, dammit, whenever our D is on the field.
Just because you can’t deal with the truth doesn’t mean it wasn’t offered.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
He is right we will beat Oklahoma because we the fans want to and since we are FSU we get what we want.
Forget superior knowledge of the system, better recruiting, better player development and only 2 home loses in 10 years.
We are WINNING, its just that simple any your logic and facts mean nothing.
And we would beat the Saints
because they don’t know what we’re going to do!
Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....
Fact vs. opinion
Your argument would hold more water if you acknowledged that it was based on opinion, not fact. Most of Bud’s piece is based on stats (aka-facts), so it has a greater base in logic. While this may not be romantic, it is probably more realistic.
If being realistic means being a bad fan, I guess I am a bad fan. Nevertheless, I will be at the games cheering just as hard as anyone; but I believe we are going to lose some games this year. History tells us so.
Lastly, don’t try to tell me what time of fan I am because I haven’t gotten my “2010- National Champs!” tattoo just yet. I am a die-hard Nole fan whether we win or lose and I support my school and its football program.
PS- It is hard to give credibility to a guy that does not know the difference between ‘are’ and ‘our.’ Feel free to install Spell Check on your Commodore 64…
Guys, lighten up
It’s a web board, not a legal brief.
I believe you meant…“a guy WHO does not know the difference…”
I stand corrected
Who, not that. I’m not getting serious, but this guy is briniging this upon himself.
You called down the thunder, you got it!
You've clearly not seen Tombstone
and you are a lesser man for it.
Shot a Gator in Jean Shorts just to watch him die.
by AMFKNole on Aug 4, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Haha
I wish I REC this more than once AMFK
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Aug 4, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Truth is relative...
at least that’s what I gather that you believe based on everything you’ve written…
Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....
"At least I didn't get an award for the smelliest bowel movement!"
Bring back Korey Mangum — a true Nole!
Satirical Humor?
Poorly executed if so
by freshcollegeboy on Aug 4, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
it's*
sh*t
Shot a Gator in Jean Shorts just to watch him die.
by AMFKNole on Aug 4, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Haha
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Aug 4, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I rec'd that
Too good of a flame-out to pass up
by freshcollegeboy on Aug 4, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
by mmmCheese on Aug 4, 2010 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Im often a proponent of using cuss words
to exemplify an emotional reaction. But that was a little much.
It's definitely over the top.
But it still makes me laugh.
Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
That picture almost wins
It would have truly won if the author had punctuated his last sentence. </grammar nazi>
Your Correct
You’re correct? Anyway, l enjoy reading your stuff to.
by LincolnHighNole on Aug 5, 2010 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions
What is humor is how you guys all just sit around and bash your favorite team. That’s what is humor.
Either be committed or go back to cheering for the Cowboys and Yankees.
I think you've convinced me.
I surrender. You are right. That’s what you have wanted to hear all along right?
YOU ARE RIGHT.
Florida State is going to go 12-0 the regular season this next year and win the championship. It was just bad luck that prediction didn’t work out for you in 2006, 2007, 2008, or 2009.
THIS is the year. I see what you are doing. I mean, even the most illogical predictions ever have increased chances the more you are consistent with them.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
Yeah here are some more facts for you.
Like this fact. In 1980 nobody thought that little old FSU could go into Nebraska and come out with a win. They went 10-2 the year before. They were ranked number 2 at the time. They had 6 All Americans and a guy you might have heard of named Roger Craig. And guess what? We won.
So forgive me if I don’t think going to Oklahoma and winning against there 8-5 scrubs is going to be some difficult task.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
no one here is saying we can't beat OU or go for 10 wins. We're saying it's highly unlikely, and
shouldn’t be an expectation for Fisher in his first year. We will all be routing to pull off the unthinkable in Norman.
Giddy-up!
by truecolors on Aug 4, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Rec
Make true’s post green. This is in essence the sentiment of all TN staff and members. Other than the routing rooting part…
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Aug 4, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
If you don’t start expecting the best you’ll never be the best.
You think Alabama expects to lose? What about Texas? And it’s no coincidence who played in last year’s championship game.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
No one here said that FSU players should enter the game expecting to lose
See my comment below
Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....
You are not on the team - what you think doesn't effect the outcome of the game.
by 93noleman on Aug 4, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Why do you even go to the games if you don’t cheer and try to will your team to victory?
There are a lot of people here who should be a lot more committed to their team instead of looking cool on the internet.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
FSUnbelievable, we should also be outraged at Coach Fisher...
He came in and tore up the way FSU was doing business, a clear admission that we had problems. He criticized the defense. He even said “we don’t know how to win.” How did we let this infidel into our ranks?!? HOW DID THIS HAPPEN, I ASK YOU!!
pessimism has no place at our fine institution
by coonhound on Aug 4, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Situation-dumb football
was Jimbo’s exact words at some point. And it was a breath of fresh air that the coaches were now finally admiting to the unacceptability of the mistakes we mere stoopid/unathletic/unknowledgeable fans were tired of screaming about for years.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Aug 4, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Logic is flawed
As fans, if we’re objective in our expectations it doesn’t mean the players will play the game expecting to lose. The internet is magic, lying to ourselves about the chances of winning aren’t going to actually increase the chances of winning.
As was pointed out above, we will all be cheering for FSU win, lose or draw. We’ll all curse at the television when something bad happens and go crazy when something good happens. We’re fans just like anyone else, we’re just not delusional.
I thought it was to be the best you have to beat the best
Also what would it matter what I expect I dont play I just watch. Last what is your point. We all love FSU and there sports. No one is saying we want to lose. They are saying OU has a damn good team. Thats all. Stop trying to be a bigger man. Leaders should seek to develop and improve what three leader counseling skills?
Active Listening
Responding
Questioning
You have your homework.
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
With all due respect
But what does 1980 have to do with the 2010 OU Sooners or FSU Seminoles?
Not seeing the connection there at all.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
Things happen in football that you can’t figure out with a calculator. Unless the stat geeks start to figure that out theyll never really understand the game.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Here's a good example of something to figure out how we'll fix in one off-season:
Keep in mind that Ward and Weinke had the benefit of playing alongside some of the most feared defenses in the nation. Last season’s Florida State defense frightened only its own fans.
Florida State recorded four shutouts and yielded an average of 9.9 points in 13 games during Ward’s Heisman season. The Seminoles allowed an average of 10.5 points in their 13 games the season Weinke won the Heisman. Last season, Florida State gave up 30 points per game. The only FSU team to fare worse in that category was the winless 1973 squad that allowed 30.1 points per game.
http://collegefootball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1109079
"There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese." -- Coach Finstock
I thought the supposed problem last year was the coaches. Well those guys aren’t here anymore. So why shouldn’t we expect to play good defense?
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Coaches cant implement an entirely new scheme in on off season and a 1AA game..
If OU were week 10 the odds would be much better.
Giddy-up!
I believe the "stat geeks" refer to that as an upset
When a team that isn’t favored, beats a team that is favored. Nobody here is saying this is exactly what will happen. It’s a prediction based on facts, not desires. Every FSU fan WANTS the Seminoles to win every game they play. But it isn’t realistic.
So if you don't think it'll be a difficult task
you think it’ll be an easy one? And you’re thinking so based on a game that happened in 1980?
It was just an example. You know, what you guys like to call evidence.
If we can’t beat an 8-5 team maybe we made the wrong choice this offseason.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I bet
You and Les Miles have awesome conversations…
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 4, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
they are not an 8-5 team
that was the 2009 sooners, we are playing the 2010 sooners.
and with that logic wouldn’t they expect to beat us (a 7-6 team)??
Team Gold!
by garnetandgold on Aug 4, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I will be referring to you as Troll Harder for the remainder of this thread...
Using your skewed logic, why would a 7 win team be expected to defeat an 8 win team? I would like you to explain your basis. While you’re at it, would you kindly highlight all of your reasons for believing the Seminoles will defeat Oklahoma? Remember kind sir/ma’am that facts are the basis by which we should found our arguments. Trying to base your position on opinions and flights of wild fancy is generally frowned upon.
by Caveman Mafia on Aug 4, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
How can you not see that we fixed what was wrong with us? Are you really that blind that you can’t see that we’ve gotten better. What has Oklahoma done?
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
alright i'm done
this is obviously a joke or an eleven year old
Team Gold!
by garnetandgold on Aug 4, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Two questions for you:
(1) Do you agree that last year’s FSU defense was atrocious?
(2) How much better will this year’s FSU defense be?
I think this can serve as a better framework for dialogue, if ye truly be no troll…
Of course last year’s defense was bad. That’s what I’ve been saying all along.
We were in the top 20 in defense in 2008. If we don’t get back to at least top 30 then we should question the hires we made.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Your not serious with that statement are you, our 2008 D was a ton of smoke and mirrors. We weren’t nearly as good as that number portrays.
Oh so the numbers only matter when they help you out.
You guy’s claims about “evidence” and “objectivity” get weaker by the moment.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
OK, then, how are you measuring defensive performance?
Points scored, total yards allowed, yards per play — or overall efficiency?
That's total yards allowed.
No adjustments are made for:
- the caliber of your opponents’ offenses (which is why UConn, NIU, San Jose State can fall in top 25).
- the proportion of time your own offense held the ball (which is why average yards/play is superior).
Could you be convinced that there are better metrics for measuring defensive performance?
It doesn’t matter when “metrics” you use. In 2008 we were 15th and we went 9-4. In 2009 we were 108th and we went 7-6.
With the way our offense has grown, if we can get back to top 30 we should win no less than 10 games in the regular season.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I just don't think we were the 15th best defense around.
I believe we could potentially end up as a top 30 type of defense by end of year, but not right out of the gates.
www.10winSeasonOrCanJimbosAss.com
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
by FrankDNole on Aug 4, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I can't believe I'm diving into this, but...
Surely the metrics matter. The reason most people are taking a deeper look at the metrics most commonly used is that they are flawed. The metrics you stated show that our defense was a top 20 defense in 2008 based on yards per game. However, that metric does not take into account how long the offense holds the ball.
If defense A gives up 400 yards on 20 plays and defense B gives up 200 yards on 10 plays is defense A really better? By your logic the answer would be yes since defense A gave up more yardage, yet both teams gave up the same amount of yards per play.
What if I told you that defense A played against UF (averaging 8 yards/play) while defense B played against UCF (averaging 4 yards/play)? Would you still consider defense B to be the better defense?
Just continued to be one of the 3 best programs in the country over the last 10 years. They continue to develop players they recruit and most of those players were big time recruits. Don’t you realize that we are trying to catch up, we have made improvements but they have been clicking for years now. This isn’t a simple fix and the fact that you wont listen to reason is why everyone is frustrated.
Pardon me Mr. Harder but would you care to elaborate on:
we fixed what was wrong with us
Do you believe that the fix is complete?
by Caveman Mafia on Aug 4, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice picture. It distracts from weak arguments.
Why wouldn’t it be? Why can we not get back close to our top 20 ranking from 2 years ago?
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Because
I would almost believe you more if your reason for us winning was just ’Because." It leaves less room for error than your flawed logic.
Still haven’t installed that spell check yet, have you?
And now there’s the second internet distraction tool when you’re losing. Talk about somebody’s spelling.
You’re doing a terrible job of disputing the facts. We were the 15th best defense in the country in 2008. We fired our bad coaches. Why can’t we be top 30?
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Because those fired/retired coaches didn't recruit well enough when they were sucking.
We couldn’t get interior linemen when our roster was screaming “early PT”. We couldn’t get decent safeties, either. We’re now forced to roll with young, unproven albeit talented players.
Does that make sense?
sooooo....
Who are you….really? You’ve known of this site long enough to mimick a screename that hasn’t been used in months. Your run-of-the-mill flamer will sign up and post this garbage immediately after learning about this little safe haven. You’ve been here before and I’m smelling a troll…..maybe even a respected member
by Caveman Mafia on Aug 4, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I am someone who is tired of all the negativity I read on this board. I’ve followed this site for a while and sometimes I wonder if the people here are even really fans.
Either you are committed or you aren’t.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
You know what committed means?
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2010/7/20/1579064/are-you-committed
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Aug 4, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Hey there Troll Harder...lets get back on point
Using your skewed logic, why would a 7 win team be expected to defeat an 8 win team? I would like you to explain your basis. While you’re at it, would you kindly highlight all of your reasons for believing the Seminoles will defeat Oklahoma?
Do you have an answer to any of these questions?
I know you’re trolling but I’m wondering where its coming from. Either a respected member having fun with us (Spetman maybe?) or a jilted writer from some pay site….which one are you? A person with this level of reasoning couldn’t stand to read this for months without venting….
by Caveman Mafia on Aug 4, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Reading was never your strong suit was it? I clearly said several times that we got rid of the problems that made us 7-6. What did Oklahoma do? Nothing.
I have also clearly pointed out why we will win this game. I couldn’t make it any easier for you if I read it to you myself.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey now, we will not tolerate you to insult other members or you will be banned for the rest of the day.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
The problems that led to us being 7-6
can not be fixed in one year. In fact the 9 win season is more of an anomaly than last year since we have been 7-6 3 out of the last 4 years
by osceolafan2.0 on Aug 4, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
How exactly did we fix what was wrong
so much more than OK fixed what was wrong. We have started the process of fixing what was wrong, we have put the pieces in place to be better, but have not actually taken the field against anyone yet. As for that 1980 game, the fact of the matter is that FSU went 11-1 in ‘79 so the problem was everyone’s perception of FSU rather than a mismatched game. The 1980 team also lost to Oklahoma in the Orange Bowl so that might not be the best example to bring up for this discussion. By your logic, we lost to OK in ’80 so we will lose to them next month.
FYI, the ’81 Seminoles lost to Nebraska by 20 points on the way to a 6-5 record so prior year results are not an indication of future performance.
So how is going 8-5 make them easily beatable scrubs...
@home and how does that logic translate when we were 7-6 last year, seems like we would be the more beatable scrubs, but what do I know.
I think I saw where the 2-10 Maryland program just canceled the season, there’s no way they can beat people after going 2-10 so why play the games, wait didn’t that team almost beat FSU at home?
No they didn't
There was a comical article written about it
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
Don't think people are saying that FSU team/players should (psychologically) expect to lose
but that if both teams play to the best of their abilities, Oklahoma should win.
Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....
I can't figure out if this guy is for real or not
Shot a Gator in Jean Shorts just to watch him die.
The million dollar question
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
Believe it.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
TROLL ALERT!!!
But it was fun while it lasted. His posts are such obvious taunts, it wouldn’t surprise me if it were a long time member who knows the sensibilities of this site and exactly how to get a rise out of everyone.
First, he admits he’s a bandwagon fan:
“This win will start are BCS run and dont think Im gonna let you guys back on the bandwagon so you can be the frontrunners you are.”
He wants instantaneous results:
“If we can’t beat an 8-5 team maybe we made the wrong choice this offseason.”
He even makes grammatical mistakes:
- Rediculous instead of ridiculous
- hole instead of whole
Finally, he totally ignores all the facts stated in the article and says:
“I thought everybody at this site was all about arguments and facts and stuff. Why are you flaming me instead of giving an argument or a single fact why Im wrong? Oh. Because you can’t. Because you know I’m right.”
This is entertaining, even if it is a scarily accurate portrayal of a large portion of the fan base. Kudos FSUnbelievable! Step forward and reveal yourself!
Also, may I suggest we have “FSUnbelievable Hour” once a week when he can come on and give everybody hell? It will keep us on our toes.
Sheriff Branford: The fact that you are a sheriff is not germane to the situation.
Buford T. Justice: The god damn Germans got nothin' to do with it!
We do have "FSUnbelievable Hour"
and it’s usually on Fridays
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
Ya know what, anyone could write this
I wanna see the in-depth Samford preview.
Gauntlet = thrown down.
Shot a Gator in Jean Shorts just to watch him die.
by AMFKNole on Aug 4, 2010 10:26 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
My thoughts.
But first, a couple of house-cleaning issues to get out of the way. I question this statement:
We know that the biggest improvement for a quarterback comes in the sophomore year. Jones has the ability to be an excellent quarterback.
Should read “in their 2nd year as a starter” vs. sophomore year, right? Or is this another phenomenon I am not aware of?
And a purely semantic edit:
n the other side is 6’4" 260 lb junior Frank Alexander. Alexander is a very nice compliment to Beal and really came on at the end of last season.
…should read “complement,” I believe.
Now, for substance… while I cede to Bud’s scouting of this situation and do believe his prediction for the outcome of this game, my nature is always to try to dig and see what might present itself as the opportunity FSU needs to pull the upset.
First, the OL situation is obviously key. They really, really struggled last year. And while there is obvious talent there, I still do not think you can assume they will make a dramatic leap forward, immediately. Bud did a great job of documenting strengths but this remains an area of at least slight uncertainty. Historic precedent says they improve greatly due to an achieving system, but the most recent precedent (last year) suggests question marks, especially to start the year. Glad that we have them early. College football is a very rapidly changing game and a down year can either suggest a bump in the road — which seems likely given all the “bad luck” — or (hopefully for FSU’s sake) that something more systemic is rearing its head. (Admittedly, the latter is a difficult case to make given their performance as the top OL in the country just 2 years ago… but it can remain a glimmer of hope relative to our chances.)
Behind OL, OU’s performance comes down to Landry Jones, and everything suggests that he should blossom into a great QB. Fortunately for us, he is not yet a proven commodity against an elite defense. Unfortunately for us, we won’t have an elite defense — and may not even have a serviceable defense since this game shows up so early in the season. So, you have to expect Jones to be able to get the ball into his receivers’ hands if the OL gives him time. What we might hope for is that the Hudson-Stoops merger generates some looks that Bob does not expect, which gives our defense just a very few opportunities to surprise with a particular blitz package or coverage scheme to force a mistake — either in protection or Jones’ read.
Consistent with the above assessment of the passing game, if the OL is performing serviceably, they will get their yards on the ground. We know they have the athletes in the backfield to chew up yardage if holes are opened.
Regarding the defense, returning 3/4 on the DL is the biggest plus for them. Yet, losing their best overall defensive player from that unit in McCoy counters that to some extent. In FSU’s glory days, we always expected our next stud DL’s to step into the gap and play up to the benchmark set before them (“reload”); and sometimes they did (Wadsworth after Boulware), but sometimes they didn’t (Seymour after Wadsworth). The coaching was consistent over this period (Gladden), so sometimes it is possible for the stars not to align despite all the pieces being in place. Again, the likelihood is that the DL does perform at an elite level, but the prospects of an elite recruit trying to replace an elite performer, along with a high performer coming off of injury, allows some doubt to remain about the units performance.
To sum… we do see a substantial number of new starters, starters returning from injury, and other elements of flux in the trenches on both sides of the ball. While any of these circumstances is unlikely, individually, to develop into a weakness, we know that a confluence of suspicions — call it the summed expectations of a couple question marks — might just result in an exploitable flaw in this presumed juggernaut. Thanks in large part to Bud’s research, I know what I’ll be looking out for.
by arrdub on Aug 4, 2010 10:32 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Good reading for
the hopeful fan. Take notes nextlevelFSUnbelievable.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 4, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow, I learned a lot reading this
Thanks… a lot. Souds like the Sooners actually have superior player talent, but their greatest advantage is that their D players are much more familiar with D system—the D playbook they actually use will be much larger than ours. This alone gives them the clear edge—mastering details pays huge dividens in CFB. Should be a frustrating day for the FSU D….
Accountabilty is back in Tallahassee....
On paper a steep climb
But I think my Noles are gonna shock some people. We have the OL to keep our O on the field, Ponder ain’t no joke, when talking about OU’s talent being some of the best we see all year I think the same can be said about our WR/QB/OL/and by committee RB in regards to what OU will see on their sked.
D concerns me, esp. w/ Murray toting the rock, but I just feel our guys are tired of being on the short end of a schitty stick.
Ameica, Land of the free and home to the entitled.
2009 Oklahoma Defense : Tackles for loss
- 11th nationally in TFLs (94)
- 7th in Sacks (37)
- 13th in stuffing the run rate (1 in every 6.9 rushes against ended in negative yardage accrued)
FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st downs against the run. And pass. And 2nd down. And 3rd down. Ok, dammit, whenever our D is on the field.
This means they were good for the statistically challenged.
Christian Ponder: Your favorite quarterback's favorite quarterback.
by Jamil Dawson on Aug 4, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Even moreso, it shows that OU’s D was elite in rush and pass defense.
FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st downs against the run. And pass. And 2nd down. And 3rd down. Ok, dammit, whenever our D is on the field.
I wrote the book on it! ;)
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2009/12/9/1194014/stuffs-a-hidden-statistic-for
FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st downs against the run. And pass. And 2nd down. And 3rd down. Ok, dammit, whenever our D is on the field.
Great job!
I would like to learn a little more about the linemen dropping into coverage. Is this to free up a BD or backer to blitz? They won’t be expected to cover receivers downfield will they?
In a zone Blitz package
normally you will have a DE drop to the flat from the side a CB or LB are blitzing or a DT drop back and cover the short middle part of the field where a LB or Safety would normally be if that same LB/S is blitzing. You will not have a DT or DE trying to match up 1 on 1 with any receivers running down field.
2010 The beginning of the next great decade for FSU football
Cover 3 Zone Blitz

FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st downs against the run. And pass. And 2nd down. And 3rd down. Ok, dammit, whenever our D is on the field.
Thanks BS37FSU and ricobert1
That end has to move pretty well even to cover that short route, doesn’t he?
Hopefully you get enough pressure to at least hurry the QB.
by SeminoleMike on Aug 4, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Great read.
I’ve skimmed through some season previews for FSU’s opponents, but only for basic information. I’ve been holding out for the TN preview because I knew it would be the best, and it did not disappoint.
I’m really not looking forward to facing this offense in the 2nd game of the season. I have a feeling this game will resemble some games from last year in that our best defense will be a good ball control offense. I do not expect our defense to get gashed like last year’s, but more dinked and dunked down the field with a big play or two sprinkled in. Murray and Broyles alone is enough to make me worry. Both are legit homerun threats everytime they touch the ball, and are 2 of my favorite non-FSU players to watch. Ratteree would scare me if this was a Mickey Andrews defense and Mesnick sounds like OU’s version Caz (though probably not as athletic for his size as Caz was)
Interesting to see that their starting MLB is only 220 lb. He will be enveloped pretty welll with the DL in front of him and the two All-Conference LBs next to him, so I guess it’s not that big of a deal. Ronnell Lewis is a beast. I remember watching him in the Under Armor game a couple years ago, and he was the best LB in the game. Even better than 5* Manti Te’o. Lewis was all over the field, and seemed to be the most consistent tackler when he arrived on the scene. He exploded in their bowl game last year, which I saw as a preview of things to come. Their CB situation looks sketchy (probably just as sketchy as ours), but the front 7 they put out on the field can help mask that.
Should be a fun game to watch in a jam-packed week 2 of college football.
Week 2
Is absolutely unbelievable. My retinas will burn.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 4, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Seeing as CB
is their most evident problem on D, what type of effect do you expect a new DBs coach to play. In my mind it gives CB play even a bigger question mark having to learn from a new coach.
Thoughts?
OU's bad luck doesn't outweigh FSU's bad/lack of coaching...
This OU is much better talk is bs. We played a tougher schedule resulting in one less win last year, but beat the only common opponent (on the road no less). Look at the star rating in the 2 deep for both teams. Most of you will be more than shocked…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
i hope you're right...
…but know you’re not
Team Gold!
by garnetandgold on Aug 4, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Too much negativity bring pumped out here under the guise of "being realistic"....
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Although the article is very well written, per usual, here's what kinda bugs me:
It consistently praises each of the (“extremely” or “very talented” or “best recruit in the country”) OU players, but it still speaks in generalities, with statements like:
We know that the biggest improvement for a quarterback comes in the sophomore year. Jones has the ability to be an excellent quarterback.
Generally true, but when does that big jump occur, exactly? Offseason? By game 2? or sometime later during the year?
The bottom line is that Oklahoma has out-recruited FSU during the relevant time period.
I thought this was covered in a previous thread and, based on enrolled numbers, was shown not be a significant difference?
They have developed players much better than FSU has over the last 4 years. They are not breaking in new coordinators or new systems on either side of the ball. Oklahoma is a more talented, better developed, more experienced team.
If all of that is true, why did their OL disintegrate last year? They should have had multiple well-developed backups ready to step in, no? And that generality is used to gloss over the few weaknesses that were pointed out, with the conclusion that their problems are solved and they’ll be ready to steamroll us in game 2.
I love the article, and sincerely appreciate it. But I’m not ready to call Randy and recommend we try to buy our way out of the game just yet.
Bring back Peter Tom- a true Nole!
by PeachTreeNole on Aug 4, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
No man haven’t you heard? Oklahoma is going to win by 50 points. We shouldn’t even bother washing our uniforms. I know because somebody on a message board said it.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
FSUnbelievable, I like the cut of your jib.
BTW, what’s a jib?

>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
OU lost 4 all-conference offensive linemen. They had guys ready to step in. They all got seriously hurt and or suspended. They even had to move their starting tight end to center and then he got hurt. In no way is that an indictment on having players ready to step in.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Aug 4, 2010 2:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Finally somebody else that gets it.
I’m afraid the truth isn’t looked at kindly around here NaGa.
by FSUnbelievable on Aug 4, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you just go straight to posting and completly bypass the whole article?
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
by RaysnNoles on Aug 4, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Read the whole thing.
I completely respect Bud’s player/team analysis. It’s the conclusions I don’t always agree with.
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
For comparison
Bud says we will lose big, I think he means by 12 or more, as he predicted earlier that we lose like 45-32 or something like that. I see that as more likely than not. How COULD you see otherwise after knowing the facts? They were a better team last year and are better this year. We are moe likely to lose than not. Just accept it or you may commit suicide after week 6 (Miami).
by freshcollegeboy on Aug 4, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Well since you state it as fact, how can I argue?
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
I just think it's hard to find the logic in saying "This OU is much better talk is bs." when OU has had
A.) More on the field success over the last few years
D.) Better and more stable coaching over the last few years
2.) Better recruiting over the last few years
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
Well...
A) With largely the same set of players they had in returning from 09 when they had one more win vs an easier schedule, so I will respectfully disagree.
2) No disagreement here
D) Completely false. Look at the 2 deep, I’ll see if I can locate the thread I saw the comparison in. FSU is putting a more talented team on the field.
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
My first sentence is messed up bad, lol. Let me try again...
With OU having most of the same players back in ’10 from the ’09 team that had but one more win vs an easier schedule, I respectfully disagree…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
I recall the thread that compared talent.
FSU was closer than many expressed, but Oklahoma had a decided edge in one of the "more mature’ classes — 07? — who comprise a large share of contributors.
OU has the edge in experienced blue chippers, and added to that, it is safe to assume that AT LEAST their defenders have had decidedly better development since enrollment.
A) With OU having most of the same players back in ’10 from the ’09 team that had but one more win vs an easier schedule, I respectfully disagree…
Wins are not always indicative of success, had you read the article you might have picked up on that
2) No disagreement here
Which should be a huge factor to why they are much better than us
D) Completely false. Look at the 2 deep, I’ll see if I can locate the thread I saw the comparison in. FSU is putting a more talented team on the field.
Star ratings only matter so much of you don’t have the A and D going for you
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
Ummm...
Wins are not always indicative of success, had you read the article you might have picked up on that
What does that even mean? Winning equals success. Regardless of the team’s focus on process over results, it doesn’t change that fact.
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
So if FSU wins 7 games again and has another top 10 offense and the D improves from 100 to 60 it is not a success in your eyes?
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
I'll view it as what is it...
Improvement, not success…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
So what is your defenition of success?
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
How much?
8, 9, 10, 11 games or is undefeated the only acceptable outcome?
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
To further clarify,..
if FSU’s record is the same but the defense improve and the offense stays stagnant, I would have no problem being satisfied with that improvement, but that is not success…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
So by your defenition of succes OU has been much better than us over the past few years
Thanks for playing
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
DING we have a winner
With Injuries to the Oline, losing your Qb and the best TE in college football they still managed to produce a better record than us. They even started a TE at center one game.
Did I ever say they weren't more successful?
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
So having more success doesn't equate to being better?
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
Not always...
Goes back to the strength of scheduling argument, and why our schedule is ridiculous. We could better a better team and not have as much success. We are setting ourselves up to fail playing the OOC we do…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Before you said winning is all that matters when accounting for success and now you are adding variable?
Which is it?
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
He isn't adding variables
He’s saying winning equals success and success(winning) is impacted by the schedule you play. He admitted that OU has been more successful and that they’ve had more stable coaching.
He feels that one of the major reasons for FSU’s record being so poor are due to having a tougher schedule than necessary. He uses it in his argument against OU by comparing our schedule to their and our record to theirs. They played an easier schedule than we did and won one game more than us.
Right
But how do you achieve success by winning? By having better offensive and defensive units. That is something that OU has had over FSU the past few years and what I think NaGaNole fails to understand.
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
Not always...
Please see my previous post…
Winning equals success, why is that so hard to understand? The reason a better team might not have the same success (read:winning games) as an inferior team is because of a tough OOC schedule. Do you think 11-2 BYU was better than 7-6 FSU in ‘09? I don’t, but they had more success on the field…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Of course the better team doesnt always win and no where has anyone ever said that they do
But the majority of the time the team fielding the better players, with the better coaching in a better overall football program wins. OU has had that and that is why we expect them to win.
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
OU doesn't have better players
Absolute myth…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
I'll let my buddy FSUnbelievable do that for me...
Care to ask him for me?
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
This is what I mean when posters throw out opinions without backing it up with facts or logic
OU has had better recruiting and better player development resulting in more on the field success, more player awards and more players drafted to the NFL.
Given all of that how do still believe that FSU has better players
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
I see....
So where’s your proof that OU has out recruited FSU? Oh that’s right, you’re defending someone else’s opinion w/o any facts to back it up, same as you are accusing me of. C’mon man…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Your method of discussion is basically "I know you are but what am I" instead of refuting the points that have been made or defending your own claims?
That tells me all I need to know about where you’re coming from.
So you right and I'm wrong cause you say so...
Brilliant!
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Have you not read
all of the comments on the past recruiting years?
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
I know about our bad recruiting years...
Did you know that OU has the same number of kids starting from the 06-07 classes as we do. FSU 06-07 class members starting: McMahon, Ponder, Husdon, K Smith, Easterling, Reed. OU has Brandon, Mensik, Murray, Beal, Taylor, Carter and Neson. FSU 6, OU 7. Not as pronounced as you’d expect….
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
How do 2010 starters have anything to do with being outrecruited for the past 4 years?
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
He made a reference to our bad recruiting years...
Easy to see both teams have the same amount of senior leadership…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Because it can be argued that
recruiting for FSU wasn’t bad from 2008 to 2010. Pretty competitive with OU as a matter of fact.
Which would leave 2006 and 2007 as the only relevant years in which OU may have blown FSU away in recruiting. The talent that FSU fields from the 2007 class is good talent and about the same amount of players that OU fields from that class.
Using ESPN recruiting rankings, in 2010 FSU was 6th overall, OU was 5th.
In 2009 FSU was 8th, OU was 11th.
In 2008 FSU was 12th and OU was 8th.
Overall its really close to a push when it comes to recruiting over the last 3 seasons.
No am I right because their average class ranking has been 9th in the same time that ours has been 15th.
And you are wrong because you don’t have a point.
6 spots sounds like a lot until you break down who's actually seeing the field...
I’m working on getting this done for comparison to confirm research I SIAP. Either I’ll be
or I’ll STFU after I’m done, but I’m pretty sure I’m right here…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
by NaGaNole on Aug 5, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would say look at the
two deep. See how they match up to our two deep as well. Not as important on say oline but d-line, backs, linebackers, etc…
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
The problem with this line of thinking would be...
“Oh FSU has 28 starters and backups from the 2008 class. That means their 2008 class was great.”
Or it could just mean the 2006 and 2007 classes really sucked.
Judging this based on who sees the field is difficult to independently evaluate.
Absolutely see your point, but...
We’ve discussed how the 06-07 classes have may handicapped us, and I’m just pointing out that they have the same contributions from those classes. If OU was out recruiting us as much as some would believe, wouldn’t you expect to see more seniors?
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Here's a proposition:
I think someone has done something along these lines already…. but…
take the 2-deep, weight stars by some arbitrary weighting for years of experience. BUT, give OU an (again arbitrary) edge in defensive player development to see how it plays out.
I, for one, respect NaGa's stick-to-it-tiveness.
And look forward to the result.
Should be a separate fanpost so we can debate minutia of the broader OU-FSU discussion in bite-sized quantities.
This thread has become.. cumbersome.
by arrdub on Aug 5, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I second that
It’s took an act of Congress for me to make through all of these posts.
Christian Ponder: Your favorite quarterback's favorite quarterback.
The most important part of the entire review is the oline
The defense should be as good or close to as good as last year.
But as was said they were plagued by injuries and they weren’t even able to practice as a unit in the spring leading to 09. This time it was completely different. They got the practice in and so far aren’t banged up. The starters have emerged and they are talented players. So fans shouldn’t think, “same lame line from 2009, they wont be able to run or run to set up the pass.” It is a much improved squad that the entire offense is anchored around. With out it last year they looked like…well FSU did going through Oline growing pains.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
Plenty of time left to get banged up! Camp is just starting...
And I actually feel that, though this is a variable that presumably could happen to either squad, I have more confidence in a green Trickett player than a green OU player — see last year’s OU team for reference.
haha
well they were so banged up they were in serious triage mode. Tight ends playing oline? Not good. Just didn’t have the bodies with so many guys banged up. Were they green? Sure. Just a difficult situation.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
But the reverse must also true for FSU's defense...
To think OU’s offense can return close to 08 levels when the OFEI had them at #2, you must also think FSU’s defense can return close to ’08 levels when their DFEI ranking was # 23.
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Oh I don't
expect OU to go anywhere close to 08 levels but I don’t expect FSU to get to their defensive 08 level or number 23. That is the question, who improves more? My money is on OU’s offense rahter than FSU’s defense.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
This is a good train of thought.
I think the core of Bud’s argument — correct me if I’m wrong — is that, at game 2 in the season, this will be:
- an elite FSU offense against an elite OU defense, and
- an elite OU offense against a mediocre – or worse — FSU defense.
So a push on one front versus a decided advantage on the other… projects out to a very likely loss.
If you agree with this approach, where do you expect OU and FSU to come in in terms of offensive/defensive efficiency?
Perfect arrub
this explains the rationale behind the point spread for the game (plus 3 pts for homefield)
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Aug 4, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that's the point
I’m just not sure people are sold on Jones being an Elite QB or the OU D being perfectly ‘reloaded’.
20 TDs vs
Idaho State
Tulsa
Kansas
Kansas St
Texas A&M
Texas Tech
not one of those teams had a D between 1-40
take Idaho State out of the equation and see what you get.
Bring back Peter Tom- a true Nole!
by PeachTreeNole on Aug 4, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
well, here's the question then:
if their banged-up, ever-changing OL was responsible for Landry still driving the offense for only 13 pts. in game 10 last yeare, i.e., if he was still running for his life all year, then what experience will he have by game 2 this year to sit back in the pocket, quickly make the correct reads, and carve up our defense?
Or
Is the unspoken assumption here really that our defense just isn’t going to show up, isn’t going to confuse him, isn’t going to get pressure on him, isn’t going to force turnovers, but is going to be susceptible to big plays like last year?
I see room for disgreement over the strength of the assumptions that (1) their offense will have improved more by game 2 this year than our defense will have, and that (2) their defense will hold our offense in check..
Bring back Peter Tom- a true Nole!
by PeachTreeNole on Aug 4, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The team is either 2nd or 3rd best odds for the Nat Champ
Factoring in schedule, LOTS of people think this team is ELITE.
Only Noles who are hoping for the best will make attempts at second-guessing the potential of Oklahoma while at the same time look at FSU’s question marks with a half full mindset. Sheesh.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Aug 4, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Ponder certainly
exceeded my expectations last year. I don’t see why Jones doesn’t have that same potential. He looked like a brand new QB against Miami over the year before (not that he wasn’t good 2008 but he wasn’t exactly a stand in the pocket confident passer either). I don’t see why OU can’t expect that kind of improvement with the talent they have.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
It's not that people expect them to improve more quickly than us, it's that
they’re starting from a 50th ranked offense, we’re starting from a 100th ranked defense.
Defense can still improve quicker than an offense can
But your point still holds validity
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
itls not BS. You don’t know what you’re talking about. OU was one of the 10 best teams in the country even at 8-5. Focusing on record instead of how a team plays will get you in trouble.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Aug 4, 2010 2:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Not true.
Your idea uses a lot of “ifs”. If Bradford doesn’t get hurt or if Landry Jones could have taken all the snaps during the summer they MIGHT have been a top 10 team. Same works both ways. If we had a better coaching staff on defense, we MIGHT have been a top team. Why exalt them and trash us?
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Even if we had a better staff last year our guys would of still been in year 1 of the new system, I think a lot of the problem is coming from not understanding how the cohesiveness of the staff they have makes for better player development.
Some system >>> no system
I think most of y’all are underestimating the impact the coaching situation had on this defense.
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
very minimal practice time though
Basically a few weeks here and there and then suddenly playing the games
by osceolafan2.0 on Aug 4, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
We've had a whole spring and summer.
Same as every other team…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Roughly 25 practices learning a whole new scheme
vs. a team that has had players learning it for 3 years
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
Most teams have had years in a system
We had a few weeks in the spring and the summer the coaches aren’t actually allowed to coach.
by osceolafan2.0 on Aug 4, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
You read it wrong
OU was one of the best 10 teams even WITH all that bad stuff happening.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Aug 4, 2010 2:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
BTW, OU's FEI ranking for 2009 was 21st,
Only 3 spots ahead of FSU at 24….just saying…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Um, OU's D was ranked 4th - FSU...92nd
FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st downs against the run. And pass. And 2nd down. And 3rd down. Ok, dammit, whenever our D is on the field.
In overall FEI O+D, OU was only 3 spots better...
Selective stats wont work here, both units for both teams will play….
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
No...
The OU team we saw after Bradford went down is largely the team we’ll see this Sept. It wont be Bradford under center, it will be Jones. As far as injuries go on the OL go, you don’t lose 4 all conference players and expect a drop off. Why make excuses for OU? They were only marginally better than us last year, and I don’t think they are better than us this year. If you say it’s because of Bradford not being there, you have to say that with a playbook our defense would have been better…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Having a playbook and understanding it is one thing
Expecting them to execute it by week 2 is irrational
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
I don't even think you read this piece
Why make excuses for OU? Seriously? They had the worst patchwork of an offensive line I have ever seen. Their #2 defense was better than our offense, and their offense was much better than our defense. They return an elite RB, an OL with talent that will actually be healthy, a solid QB, excellent WR’s, serviceable TE’s, and they’ll reload on what was an awesome defensive unit last season. You’re just believing what you want to in the face of facts. Nobody is saying we can’t win, just that it isn’t likely.
>>---l>
Their #2 defense was better than our offense?
Seriously? lol
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Yes. They were better on defense than we were on offense and they were better on offense than we were on defense.
>>---l>
You said their # 2 defense was better than our offense....
Not the same thing…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
#4 according to DFEI for last year.
Was very impressive….
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
And I am not exhalting them and trashing us
They just happen to have much better players who aren’t learning a new system and the game is in Oklahoma.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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We're just going to have to disagree on the much better player part.
Learning a new system or not, any system is better than none. This is not an apples to apples comparison. It’s not like we had a plan and couldn’t execute. We didn’t even have a playbook last year per our own players mouths. I put more weight on simply having a plan then you do…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
In the irony of ironies, you probably learned that we did not have a playbook courtesy of Bud's research.
As TJ said, you cannot have a democracy with an uneducated citizenry.
Alas…
But seriously… as of Game 2, what type of defense do you expect from FSU? What type of offense from OU? Don’t you think they will have the advantage that early?
typically
doesn’t it take an offense longer to find it’s rhythm?
(assuming that we’re talking about random offense A and random defense 2, not FSU and OU)
If they don't "find any rhythm," but just continue off last year, they'll still be top 50-ish.
Will we be a top 50 defense that early?
How many yards do you think OU will put on us?
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
I don't even want to think about it
I’m hoping less than 400, but I don’t know if I see that coming.
Maybe I read your post wrong
If we give up 400+ yards how will we be top 50 early?
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
I just re-read it
I meant absolutely not. The only way that we’ll be close to a top-50 ranking defensively when we play OU will be in total defense, and that’s only because we play Samford before that (which I don’t think even counts)
Why ironic?
I’m a member of TN.com because I like his research and write ups (and most everyone’s too). At the end of the day all that matters if that we love this university and it’s teams. It’s ok to have disagreements. Would be a pretty boring place w/o them…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Ironic, but in a goodway.
It is inevitable that folks will challenge Bud with the material that he provides.
and as long as they challenge it with LOGIC and FACTS we encourage it
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
They and We?
Aren’t we all on the same team here?
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
"they" and "we" refer to "mods" and "folks," aka non-mod TN posters.
I don’t think any further class segmentation was intended.
"Game in Oklahoma"...
Consider that they don’t play a very tough home schedule traditionally…. They always play Texas at a neutral site, and the rest of the big 12 has not been nearly up to OU’s class. Similar to our “home winning streak” during the early ACC years, although we at least had UF or UM at home every year, and spattered in USC and some other teams.
OU has lost at home to TCU to open the season a few years back.
I think their home “dominance” is a little overrated due to always playing Texas in Dallas.
excellent special teams and the defense was so ridiculously good
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Aug 4, 2010 2:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
There is but I am not sure if it is publicly availabl. I'd have to ask the guys who produce it whether I can reproduce it.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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IIRC
Hasn’t the value of special teams play been called into question on these very boards? Not trying to open an additional can of worms…
(if not, i must be remembering incorrectly)
records....
I am happy to concede that OU is the better team, so long as you concede that we will beat them anyway!!! C’mon…you can do it…..just remember….being the best does NOT equal wins!!
The best team wins the majority of the time
Which is the point we are trying to get across
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
records...
sorry, just a jab at buds comment….that the best teams don’t always have the best records. That is why they give the trophy to the best 8-5 team. They were, in fact chosen by at least one big site to win the NC LAST year, and ended up at 8-5. and obviously better that most of those 5 teams that they lost to. Not here to say that we will kill them, but am not ready to concede a loss yet. They have probs on offense, and have not yet proven that they will improve so quickly. I think we do hold them to 35-ish in score. That being said, I think that our offense has a great chance to pull out a W for us…they have a great defense without last years leader, and a couple of others. Lets see hou they do….
Over/Under on YPP for the OU Offense
For reference (2009)
UF – 9.3
BYU – 8.9
GT – 8.5
NCST – 7.8
CU – 7.7
UM – 7.4
BC – 7.1
WF – 6.6
USF – 6.3
I will arbitrarily start it at 7.7
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
Good Grief! How did we win a game?
can you post FSU’s Offensive YPP for comparison? I need to balance that out to justify our 7-6 year as not just from good luck.
by freshcollegeboy on Aug 4, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bud, meticulously researched and thorough as always. If I may be so bold as to add a piece of trivia that was not mentioned in your story or in the comments.
This information falls more into the intangibles of the game, rather than the X’s and O’s.
A) Oklahoma currently holds the nations longest home winning streak at 30 games.
2) Bob Stoops’ record at home is 66-2.
D) Their last loss at home was their home opener in 2005 against TCU 17-10.
Oklahoma, then-ranked No. 5 in the country, opened the season against TCU at Oklahoma Memorial Stadium. Not intimidated by their surroundings, the Horned Frogs jumped out to a 10-0 lead at halftime. The Sooners rallied behind a hobbled Adrian Peterson, who scored on an 11-yard run in the third quarter. A Garrett Hartley 21-yard field goal tied the game but Oklahoma couldn’t stop TCU running back Robert Merrill whose 2-yard TD run sealed the win. It was only the second home loss under Bob Stoops and the first one since 2001. It was the biggest win for TCU since beating No. 7 Baylor in 1960.
What does this mean?
Well, if I can put myself in new member FSUnbelievable’s shoes for a moment, this means they are way past due to lose, so why shouldn’t they lose to FSU. It’s bound to happen SOONER or later.
Also it would be nice to bring back some sod from GAYLORD Family Stadium for the Sod Cemetery.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
by FrankDNole on Aug 4, 2010 2:11 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Leaving out some pertinent info there, Frank...
Tell me how many top 25 teams have come to Norman in the last 5 years. Remember that UT is a neutral site game…care to take a guess?
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
I'm going to take a stab at 3.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
'I'm not a Role Model" - Charles Barkley
How many have come to Doak?
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
What does that matter, we're talking about OU's "unbeatable home advatange"...
Nice change of subject you magician you…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
I get the reason that you asked the question, but for arguments sake isn’t 66-2 a pretty good indicator that they rarely ever lose at home opponent be damned?
It is but it's a little like the argument against Boise
Yeah, you’re undefeated but you only played 1-2 teams with a pulse. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean to knock what OU has accomplished at home and I agree with your earlier post that their record is impressive (I think teams should get more credit for beating who they should beat) but I’m not in awe 66-2. I don’t think the location of the game will be the reason we lose, if we lose.
Christian Ponder: Your favorite quarterback's favorite quarterback.
by Jamil Dawson on Aug 5, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Nice use of "quote" marks.
I pointed out a fact. Nowhere in that fact did it state they had a “unbeatable home advatange advantage.”
Nice insertion of quote marks on a non-existent quote you literary magician you…
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
What does this mean?
Well, if I can put myself in new member FSUnbelievable’s shoes for a moment, this means they are way past due to lose, so why shouldn’t they lose to FSU. It’s bound to happen SOONER or later.
We can smell what the Frank was cooking…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Thanks Rock.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
After a quick glance was
- Texas Tech and OU thumped them but that was with Bradford in 08.
Ok State was #12 when they played them at home and they blanked them 27-0 and that was last year. Stanford was number #21 at home. FSU last two years? Hasn’t beat one ranked team at home. So their home field advantage I would say is pretty significant. FSU will not be a top five team going into Norman…
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
Whoa
Format craziness.
Texas Tech was Number 2 in 08 at OU and OU beat them soundly.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
How was BYU's home record when we came there last year
as long as we’re throwing around irrelevant info…..
FSU Football: United We Stand
by stevegrizzle on Aug 5, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Steve, since you asked the question, I imagine you already know the answer. So please do tell.
However, I do not consider OU having the nations longest home win streak of 30 an irrelevant fact. I was simply responding to NaGaNoles insinuation that OU only has that streak because they don’t play top 25 teams. And as we learned, they have played 5 and we have played 6 since 2005 at home.
Also, nowhere did I ever say the were not unbeatable. In fact, I said they are way past due to lose, albeit in a sarcastic tone, although I give our Noles more of a shot to win than the rest of the TN staff. Why? Because our players will play harder than theirs and have more heart. (Sorry, the a$$hole in me has to come out every few sentences or I will self-destruct.)
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
They schedule easy at home, they pay for their wins like we should....
I applaud them for this…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
We will also in the near future, thank God.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
by FrankDNole on Aug 5, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We won't be a top 25 team though either
We will just be another unranked team coming in on a Saturday
by osceolafan2.0 on Aug 4, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Please, you cannot go and say that dogmatically.
That’s your reasonable assumption/expectation/whatever, sure… but even the term for what “Top 25” means is subjective — AP voters can’t even stay consistent. Is it where you think they’ll end up at the end of year? In terms of potential, right now?
That type of talk will just put the trolls on steriods.
Statement based on fact, according to ESPN.com at 2:57 pm, August 4th, the year of our Lord, two thousand and ten.
Nothing more, nothing less.
I prefer to feed them stale veggie puffs.
At least the neighborhood geese like them.
2009 CFB polls are just cruel.
Your troll baiting exercise has expired.
<href=“http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/usatpoll.htm”>FSU ranked 20th in this year’s poll.
Nice use of SOONER Frank!
If their home winning streak is at 30 games, it really makes you appreciate our old streak of 54 home unbeaten. Is it football season yet???
True, and as much as I hate to admit it, the scUM's 58 game streak, which is the record, is pretty incredible.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
as I posted above...
They also never play Texas at home, and have a traditionally easy home schedule.
Keep reading below and you will see they have played 5 ranked opponents since 2005 and FSU has played 6.
Meanwhile OU is 30-0 and FSU, with just as weak of schedule, is barely winning 60% of those games (.625).
Also, why has the fact that they don’t play Texas at home become such constipated turd in everyone’s a$$. The fact remains that they have played proportionally the same amount of ranked reams and weak teams as FSU, but we can’t defend our turf and they have, and that is what well run programs are supposed to do. Hopefully, those days are behind us.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
by FrankDNole on Aug 5, 2010 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because anectodal evidence from memory is easier to use in this type of discussion
even when it isn’t right.
Shot a Gator in Jean Shorts just to watch him die.
I think the No Texas factor comes into play...
…because folks are dismissing the streak relative to Miami’s 58-0, or FSU’s dominance in the 90’s. So, they’re not comparing it to what FSU has done recently, just saying the OU record is a bit of a sham/misleading relative to those homefield feats that are most commonly referenced.
If we played Miami in Orlando, wouldn’t we have have had an unbeaten streak that extended from Clemson/1989 to NC State/2001, right? So OU’s 00s are not FSU’s 90s, is the extent of what is being said here.
Not that this has any particular relevance as to how much better OU is than FSU, but that issue is begging to be red herring’d when it’s allowed to enter into the discussion. Their homefield is worth 3-4 points, like most other teams. It’s just that they’re usually already better than most of the teams they play at home.
But let's go through a probability exercise with this.
Let’s assume that they had an equal probability for winning each of the last 68 games at home (huge assumption, but let’s go).
If we use a rough win shares model, we can translate point spread to percentage chance of winning. Let’s say they were 3 touch down favorites in EVERY single home game they played (to account for not “playing anybody” at home). This is another big assumption, they definitely played teams that were better than 3 TD underdogs. But let’s just make it this high to be really conservative about their quality of competition.
Win shares conversion would make give them about an 88% chance to win any single game.
Using a simple binomial distribution, you know what the probability of winning 66 games or more out of 68 is? .00883229
Even a 3 touchdown favorite for every game has less than a 1% chance of winning 66 out of 68 games.
Their run is still impressive, no matter the competition.
So, what you're saying is --
the +3-4 point standard for homefield is entirely bogus?
Or, the the relationship between point spread and likelhood of winnnig is grossly overrated? A much better team almost always wins at home?
I am saying that even if you were playing against the Sun Belt every week, winning 66 out of 68 games is an uncommon occurance.
What I am saying is,
The empirical doesn’t seem to align precisely with the tail-end of the model — no statistical definition/meaning re: tails implied.
Otherwise, Michigan/Apalachian State wouldn’t be as big of a deal, because it would happen a lot more frequently. A 28 point favorite seems to win more frequently that the point spread translations suggest???
I do not know the research so I will bow out,
but there have been at least hundreds of games where a team was favored by that much. There has been 1 Michigan/App State and 1 Stanford/USC. My guess would be that it isn’t far off at all in the long run, but without knowing the data I won’t argue one way or another.
I'm going on intuition as well.
But it seems like you are agreeing? Two incidences across multiple hundreds of games translates to less than 1 percent… does -28 translate to >99%?
I thought you were saying the percentages didn't match the point spreads.
It is my understanding that the -3/3 -125/125 payouts on which the % are predicated are based on the empirical data of frequency of wins at given point spreads.
Its like being a kid in a candy shop
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
Here's what I take from the article:
A) the safe bet, particularly based upon quantifiable and tangible predictors, is we will lose.
2) there are certainly intangibles through which we could win, but in the same way that there are always intangibles, such as the fact that we are showing up with a defense of unknowable performance, employing a new scheme, going against a team with a sophomore, mustachioed QB, and an O-Line that is probably not as good as the ones our D-line lines up against in practice; and
D) if we win, it will be an upset, the gravity of which will be readily apparent to anyone who reads this site’s analysis carefully; and
!) It will confirm what I’ve always believed, which is that God is a Seminole and still loveth the world. If we lose, I will still believe this, but with the caveat that he is not a micromanager who interferes with Jimbo’s process-oriented approach and the natural, long-term curve of measurable progress.
Incidentally, does OU have a sister site—would be interesting to see how they analyzed us.
"There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese." -- Coach Finstock
by BigSpear on Aug 4, 2010 2:38 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
did you know...
the gators think God is a UF fan because at sunset the sky is orange and blue….don’t they teach any earth sciences classes down there…
also…props for the mustachio effect!
Crimson and Cream Machine on SB nation...they mostly don't get as in depth as we do on opponents...to vain.
Also they just have a stick up their butt still about Bobby voting them down on a coaches poll and turning in one of their players for NCAA violations…whatever.
Giddy-up!
^ not so fast my friend
Their loss to BYU last year was at home IIRC. A BYU team we whipped by 26 at their crib. Just sayin’…
"Your liver pays dearly now for youthful magic moments...so rock on completely with some brand new components"
negative
v. BYU was in Arlington (JerryWorld)
OU has played 5 teams that have been ranked when the played, at home, in the last 5 years. FSU has played 7 ranked teams, at home
I'm too busy to look it up. What is FSU home record for the past 5 years? Thanks.
Say what you will, I would love being 23-7 during the last 5 years with the 7 losses being against the ranked teams. However, I have a gut feeling we are just over .600, but I am probably wrong.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
Protecting this house since....
well I can’t really remember when
2009 – 3-3 Overall, 0-2 vs Ranked – Wins against Jx St., NCST, MD
2008 – 4-3 Overall, 1-1 vs Ranked – Wins against W. Car, Chatt, VT, Clemson
2007 – 4-1 Overall, 0-0 vs Ranked – Wins against UAB, NCST, Duke, Maryland
2006 – 4-4 Overall, 0-1 vs Ranked – Wins against Troy, Rice, UVA, W. Mich
2005 – 5-1 Overall, 1-0 vs Ranked – Wins against Mia, Citadel, Syracuse, WF, MD
Overall 20-12 and 2-4 vs Ranked
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
I'm running errands. If you ask me a question this afternoon I probably won't answer it. Not ignoring you.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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Correction: Ghandi wants to fight YOU

FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st downs against the run. And pass. And 2nd down. And 3rd down. Ok, dammit, whenever our D is on the field.
My favorite movie of all time
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
You're a lucky boy, Billy.
You found the marble in the oatmeal!
You get to drink from the FIRE HOSE!!!
"There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese." -- Coach Finstock
I think FSUnbelievable
is Bud.
It’s too convenient. On the article dealing with the team he’s been getting the most frustrated with most of our fanbase’s beliefs there just HAPPENS to be a rapist in lincoln park, he’s climbing in your windows, he’s snatching your people up, so you better hide you kids, hide your wife and hide your husband cause they raping e’rbody out here
troll running around talking about how clearly we are in a better position than Oklahoma AND Bud just HAPPENS to be “running errands” all afternoon and unavailable?
I’ma calling you out.
Shot a Gator in Jean Shorts just to watch him die.
by AMFKNole on Aug 4, 2010 4:17 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
It's not Bud, I guarantee it. I wanted to make sure it wasn't a previously banned troll, so I traced the IP address back to Tallahassee.
The call is coming from inside the house.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
Damn, thought I was on to something
Also thought my strike through joke was funnier than it was apparently.
Shot a Gator in Jean Shorts just to watch him die.
strikethrough = very yes
I’m with ya AMFKNole, that strikethrough was internet gold.
\m/(-_-)\m/
by metalheadnole on Aug 4, 2010 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
It was funny
but you forced it a bit. Next time just wait for the opportunity. It will come, my son.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
LOL
been a long time since I saw that movie.
Bring back Peter Tom- a true Nole!
by PeachTreeNole on Aug 4, 2010 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Good writeup - though I learned nothing
about the techniques they teach their outside blockers on punt formations. The author may have a law degree, but he’s still a slacker.
So How does our Offense?
Prepare for this Zone Defense? What plays should we run to be successful?
There will be more
analysis as the games get closer.
We’ll get into the gameplans and the matchups the week of the game.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
Bud definitely will address this later on, but here's one play that can expose the soft spots & holes in a zone defense - the "levels" play
http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2009/01/peytons-favorite-pass-play-levels.html
FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st downs against the run. And pass. And 2nd down. And 3rd down. Ok, dammit, whenever our D is on the field.
Speaking of defense…do we have our two incoming freshmen DTs Damien Jacobs and Cameron Erving on campus
by elite_Nole on Aug 4, 2010 7:09 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
what
who the heck is bud? you sound like an OU fan…OU has not out recruited FSU over the last 4 years, that is flat out wrong. They have done a much better job of developing players however since 2007 they’ve lost to 2 teams that FSU has beaten in the same years. OU is good yes, but they aren’t alabama…
OU has not out recruited FSU over the last 4 years, that is flat out wrong.
Will you pretty please present any type of factual information to back up this ridiculous statement
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
2006
FSU 3, OU 9
2007
FSU 21, OU 14
2008
FSU 6, OU 9
2009
FSU 7, OU 13
2010
FSU 10, OU 7
FSU = 10.6 avg
OU = 10.4 avg
-minus 2006
FSU = 12.5
OU = 10.75
either way. looks pretty even to me.
I am pretty sure those are not enrolled rankings
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
No its not
And you might as well as thow out the 2007 class.
YET TO CONTRIBUTE SIGNIFICANTLY
CB Dionte Allen
BUZZ: Has been slowed by injury but the Detroit, Michigan native should be in the cornerback rotation this fall.
C A.J. Ganguzza
BUZZ: A knee injury kept the redshirt sophomore out of action most of last season, but he will be the backup to C Ryan McMahon this fall.
LB Aaron Gresham
BUZZ: Another player in this class who has dealt with unfortunate injury luck, he has yet to play a game. Tore the ACL in his right knee before the 2008 season.
LB Maurice Harris
BUZZ: Also a victim of injuries, Harris, a redshirt sophomore, has played in just three games to this point but will fight to earn playing time this season.
DE Jamar Jackson
BUZZ: Missed ’07 season with a torn ACL and played in three games last season.
WR Cameron Wade
BUZZ: Headed into his third season, Wade has made just three receptions in his career.
THE DEPARTED
CB Bernard Brinson
BUZZ: Top-rated cornerback prospect had academic issues; never played a game at FSU.
DE Brian Coulter
BUZZ: One of the best junior college prospects in the nation, he never qualified and never played a game at FSU.
OT Will Furlong
BUZZ: Former DeLand High standout was starting on the offensive line last season before breaking his foot. Left school after the injury and transferred to North Alabama.
OT Anthony Grosso
BUZZ: Made it to campus in the summer of 2007 but left school shortly thereafter and transferred to Deleware.
TE Jonathan Hannah
BUZZ: Journeyman tight end never qualified academically and never played a game at FSU.
OG Zach Hillery
BUZZ: Former Winter Springs High standout had academic issues and never played a game at FSU.
OL Jatavious Jackson
BUZZ: Was declared a non-qualifier and never played a game at FSU.
ATH Brandon Paul
BUZZ: Undersized receiver left the team during the 2008 season after playing a minimal role.
Yeah I went back and checked it again and I really don't think he is.
FSU = 12.5
OU = 10.75
either way. looks pretty even to me.
Whereas if he examined the enrolled rankings, which are a more accurate reflection of the real recruiting a school is doing, he would see that all of the little caveats that he threw in about the 2007 class cause the numbers to dramatically favor Oklahoma.
And you might as well throw out the 2007 class.
Why? Because it sucked? And because is the primary basis for the statement “Oklahoma has recruited better than FSU”? Throwing out outliers and data points that don’t fit your argument is never a good approach.
And, if he owned a calculator, the "FSU is better" argument would have been much more difficult to combat.
Especially since 3+21+6+7+10 equals 47. And 47/5 equals 9.4, not 10.6.
He subtracted the 2006 class
Because apparently RS Seniors will not factor into the game at all
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
Rivals enrolled rankings 2007: OU-11 FSU-25
2008: OU-6 FSU-8
2009: OU-10 FSU-12
2010 enrolled rankings have yet to be released, but in initial team rankings: OU-7 FSU-10
>>—-l>
by DKfromVA on Jul 20, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
>>---l>
I posted on another spot about
the 2006 class, rs seniors. They have 8 or 9 FSU has I think 4…
Could go look but I’m far too lazy.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
Yeah I remember that, good point also
So we’ll say it for a final time.
OKLAHOMA HAS OUT-RECRUITED FLORIDA STATE IN EACH YEAR RELEVANT TO THIS SEASON’S GAME. OVER THIS TIME PERIOD, OKLAHOMA HAS DEVELOPED THESE PLAYERS SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER THAN HAS FLORIDA STATE. OKLAHOMA HAS BETTER FOOTBALL PLAYERS THAN FLORIDA STATE AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME. /definitive
>>---l>
So that's like 8.5 vs 13.75 (taking some liberties with the 2010 data)?
“FSU has not been out-recruited by Oklahoma PERIOD”
whew. Sorry I missed all the excitement
I’m on west coast time here, so I post after most people leave and most people post before i get here.
Anyways.
I’m was just responding to RaysnNoles to imperative “present factual data”.
I had no agenda. Since no one else did, i figured I would.
The original remark was concerning past 4 recruiting classes. And I added in 06 for RS Seniors, etc. but removed them because that was 5 classes ago.
Yes I could have got the math wrong, but I guess that’s what happens when you use MS calc with a mouse and don’t double check.
Whats with all the aggression all of a sudden?
No agression harper. At least none intended. Potentially some conveyed. I apologize if so.
Just want to be clear that we can’t just throw out outliers. And you were the second person I’d read say something to that effect.
Again, apologies if I came off too harsh.
I didn't intent to make a case with one post
which was why after he mentioned “enrolled” students I went back to see where that would lead and that was my comment on the 2007 class.
I was just trying to have a dialog over a few posts to see where it went.
Well, I wouldn't trade either of you guys for anyone, so there.
Christian Ponder: Your favorite quarterback's favorite quarterback.
FSU was much better than 7-6 teams out there.
three more TDs and we are 10-3
a. Fortson vs Miami
b. not be dumb against USF
c. No INT and finish a drive against GT.
d. Just throw in Ponder not playing hurt against Clemson and we win 80%.
FSU has more talent than 60-70% of the top 25
I just made that up, but it sounds right.
Early departures (brown/rolle) and injuries (thacker/mcneil/robinson/anotheroneiforgot) really hurt the D.
It just sounds to me that you guys are saying losing to OU 50-17 should be expected, and its okay. I don’t think either one is true
we also pulled out a couple gut wrenchers
UNC, Maryland, Jax St (yikes), NC State
We were a botched exchange away from losing any of those.
2009’s team could’ve gone 5-7 or 9-4.
by The K-Man on Aug 4, 2010 8:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I believe 38 was making a tongue-in-cheek reference to Bobby Bowden's penchant
for exclaiming FSU was only 1 playmaker away from being back on top.
FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st downs against the run. And pass. And 2nd down. And 3rd down. Ok, dammit, whenever our D is on the field.
I got that.
just don’t see where it fits here.
Just because someone is arguing that FSU doesn’t suck (even if they arnt being serious) does not imply that they were sponsors of the previous regime. Its a cheap argument that shows a lack of effort.
Welcome to the offseason!
FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st downs against the run. And pass. And 2nd down. And 3rd down. Ok, dammit, whenever our D is on the field.
FSU-Oklahoma
This is one hell of an opponent preview, props for putting it together. I went to one of OU’s early nonconference games in Norman and all I can say is that they might have the best 1-2-3 of skill players on offense in the nation. Landry Jones looked extremely composed for a frosh and he was making all of the throws with accuracy despite the problems you noted with the O-Line. Give him a better (healthier) line this yr and I think he is even better. Murray is a tough running back when healthy and Broyles is a stud.
I sure hope the D can slow down a skilled opponent this year unlike the challenges of last fall, because thats our only hope in this one. As someone pointed out, OU is tough at home with only 2 losses (OK State by a FG in 2001 and the home opener to TCU in 2005 when they had a new QB Rhett Bomar) this decade. But its important to note that they don’t play a whole lot of tough games at home. Their series with Texas is at the Cotton Bowl, so their only real Big 12 challenge has been a Nebraska team that has been down for most of the decade.
For anyone who is still reading this 400 comments down, does anyone have acces to tix for the FSU Oklahoma game. Being from the Midwest I don’t have many chances to make it to Noles games, but since I am in Austin for law school, Norman is a fun road trip that I’d like to take for this game. I would be forever grateful to anyone who has extra tix to sell.
tickets
I am also in Austin. Tickets are tough to come by. I have some friends in OK that are trying to find some. Even if we don’t find any, we should get all the Noles in Austin, rent a bus and head to Norman.
sounds good 326. I am going either way (tickets in hand or not). I gotta buddy in Fort Worth I was planning on meeting up with on Friday and we were probly gonna head towards Norman around 4 or 5 Saturday morning. How many Noles fans are there in Austin that are on TN? We should start a weekly tailgate/beer drinking/college fb crew for FSU in Austin
Austin Tailgate crew
I’m in. Where do you normally watch the games? I watch at Legends or Third base in Round Rock/Pflugerville. I have the same plan- stay in Arlington Friday night and drive to Norman Saturday morning.
I'm an OU guy
and the FSU game is already officially sold out (they had a few singles at the beginning of the week) through OU. The best bet would actually be through FSU as they get an allotment as the visitors.
OR…there is always scalpers around the stadium. Face on this game I believe is $80…so you could find a pair or about $200..if you haggle and wait till right at kick-off.
Colorado Rockies correspondent at My Team Rivals (www.mtrmedia.com/rockies) and my own site Rockies Reporter (www.rockiesreporter.wordpress.com) and one of the top Rockies writers at the Bleacher Report.
Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
No fat chicks
by Volstud on Aug 5, 2010 3:32 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Well Bud This was a great piece.
Thanks I still think we smoke OU. Why because they fear the spear. I understand I have the koolaid but I found out adding Soju to it makes almost anything believable. I think Nextlvl is with me sorry I mean FSUnbelievable
Why is the sky blue? Because, God Loves the Infantry
But the lost puppy really was like the Industrial Revolution
FSU Football: United We Stand
by stevegrizzle on Aug 5, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
This was not intended towards any author..
I just felt like it was much needed somewhere in the comments…
No fat chicks
I can't wait till we win
and all the “Jimbo shouldn’t be responsible for a loss” crowd come back to praise him to no end..
I seems that there is just a group of people out to lessen the expectations so that Jimbo won’t be seen in a bad light.
To me this is wrong. for 1, the team feeds off of the fan expectations, and those trying to lessen the expectations are doing a grave disservice to everyone, bar Jimbo. and 2. there is no reason the whole program expectations should be lowered just to save Jimbo’s job.
Let the nole chips fall where they will, and let negative nancies be quiet.
It matters to the team what I think!!!
My outlook is important!!!
Well, except when I’m calling for the head coach’s job because he didn’t meet the artificially inflated standard I dreamed up so that my coworkers would stop making fun of me in the fall.
by MattDNole on Aug 5, 2010 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
yea yea
stoops won it all his first year if I recall, jimbo can’t possibly do it because he has too much against him…
let us be practical, lets just show up at the game and have a parade with a big “DEFEATED” sign
You don't recall. You don't recall at all.
Oklahoma won 7 games in his first year.
How ‘bout we be practical and fly a banner that says "Mr. Seminole won’t do any research before making his crazy claims"?
by MattDNole on Aug 5, 2010 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I do lotto calculation research and have yet to win the whole thing ; )
Where I come from we take your SOD and bury it too!
which is crazier?
to expect good things, or to expect bad things?
to have hope or to have no hope?
to have faith or to have no faith?
to have fun or be a negative nancy?
to say yes to possibilities or to say no to possibilities?
by Mr. Seminole on Aug 5, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
We like to objectively analyze the performance of the program
Step one of this process is to create the standards by which the program will be judged. If you don’t like this method, then that’s fine. We try not to let our fanhood skew our analysis.
>>---l>
oh
if after your analysis you expect to lose, the least you could do is state what must be done to win
by Mr. Seminole on Aug 6, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
The article sates that he will do that as a seperate piece.
"Don't bite your friends" - DJ Lancerock
This is the general preview of Oklahoma as a team
The match-up preview will be done the week of the game
>>---l>
Why should a team that has ben 7-6 3 out of the last 4 years and .500 in conference
Expect to beat a legitimate national title contender on their field? It CAN happen, but it isn’t likely.
>>---l>
Because it aint Bobby's team anymore.
I also believe we beat uf as well!
Where I come from we take your SOD and bury it too!
lmao...yeah, Seriously....here,have a sip it's good.
Where I come from we take your SOD and bury it too!
Based on anything more than you wanting them too?
Because UF is better than FSU is just about everything.
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
well,
they lost almost their entire coaching staff and replaced it with (imo) lesser skilled coaching. They lost a ton of talent and the game is in Doak this year, I guess I’m a dreamer….oh well
Where I come from we take your SOD and bury it too!
The talent the lost is be replaced with similar if not better talent
I agree with you that they lost good coaching but who is to say at this point in time they can’t to what the old staff did.
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
absolutely! But one thing,Tttttimmy's not there anymore ; )
so please uf, feel free to throw that ball….I’m going on record now and say 2 picks by our D
Where I come from we take your SOD and bury it too!
Completely off topic and irrelevant.....
Glad to see the new rule about the eye black having to be solid and no more Timmy verses..
But you're not the only one...
I hope some day they’ll join us…
and the Noles will live as one……
Bring back Peter Tom- a true Nole!
by PeachTreeNole on Aug 5, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Nice
you say we’re LOWERING the expectations to save Jimbo’s job? How about lowering them because:
OUR DEFENSE WAS 92ND IN THE NATION LAST YEAR
WE ARE NOW USING A SCHEME THAT HASN’T BEEN RUN AT FSU IN NEARLY 30 YEARS
WE HAVE GONE 6-6 AGAINST DIV. I TEAMS 3 OF THE LAST 4 YEARS
THIS IS JIMBO’S FIRST YEAR
WE HAVE ONE OF THE TOP 5 TOUGHEST SCHEDULES IN THE NCAA
OKLAHOMA HAS BEEN PREDICTED TO WIN THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP
WE COULD PLAY SEVEN TOP 25 TEAMS THIS YEAR
Now then, you would say going 8-4 and being in the ACCCG and possibly a BCS game could be DISAPPOINTING?
by freshcollegeboy on Aug 5, 2010 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions
HAHA holy crap I just posted this on AC's blog
Some tool posted this:
8 – 4 Would be a HUGE dissapointment. Jimbo has had 3 years to plan this transition and if we only get an 8 – 4 with the returning players we have then why did we change coaches this year. I believe Jimbo’s plan is better than 8-4. We did not accept 8-4 out of Bowden, we will not accept 8-4 out of Jimbo. First year grace can not be applied here. -mAT
My Response:
mAT,
What is disappointing about an 8-4 season?
What is disappointing about an 8-4 season after going 7-6 three of the last four years?
What is disappointing about an 8-4 season with a chance to win 9 and even a chance to win 10?
What is disappointing about an 8-4 season playing against a top 10 schedule in the country ?
What is disappointing about an 8-4 season after having one of the worst 15 defenses in the country?
What is disappointing about an 8-4 season after having one of the most dysfunctional coaching staffs in the country?
You know what is disappointing? You mAT. You disappoint me. Planning a transition is not the same as implementing that plan and letting that plan effect an entire program in need of change. Bowden and his team of sycophants, standing around collecting a paycheck, did serious harm to the FSU program. It will take more than a year for things to be corrected. So adjust your outlook accordingly.
-onebarrelrum out.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 5, 2010 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
OUR DEFENSE WAS 92ND IN THE NATION LAST YEAR
They have a playbook now ; )
WE HAVE GONE 6-6 AGAINST DIV. I TEAMS 3 OF THE LAST 4 YEARS
that was under the Bowden regime
THIS IS JIMBO’S FIRST YEAR
you mean 5th year,right?
WE HAVE ONE OF THE TOP 5 TOUGHEST SCHEDULES IN THE NCAA
Thank god it’s our last season for that
WE COULD PLAY SEVEN TOP 25 TEAMS THIS YEAR
nothing new there,we could also beat all seven teams too!
Where I come from we take your SOD and bury it too!
no, he means it's Jimbo's first year,
the first year he controls the program. You do realize he was 4th on the totem pole under Bowden, Andrews, Amato, and only controlled certain aspects of the offense, right?
Bring back Peter Tom- a true Nole!
by PeachTreeNole on Aug 5, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
This is the first year Jimbo will have any input in the defensive approach.
While he was able to help recruit the defense’s best players (Reid, McDaniel, et al?), that side of the football will only begin to show his extended fingerprints this year.
I am going to start buying it by the case~!~!
I prefer the Kool-aid
by Mr. Seminole on Aug 5, 2010 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I dont think the site has any vested interest in Jimbo succeeding, if that is what youre suggesting.
FSU Football: United We Stand
by stevegrizzle on Aug 5, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed, no vested interest. But I believe 99% of us here (site chiefs, authors/mods, and members) are all hoping and feeling good about Jimbo's chances of succeeding.
I believe only the Bowdenista, and their offshoot brethren, the Bowdenites, are hoping for Jimbo to fail.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
Seriously?
You think some people are hoping Jimbo will fail and that will somehow make Bowden look good? How ridiculous is that? I hope that’s a small group of people. I don’t think Bobby Bowden would even be part of that group (don’t know about his wife)
by SeminoleMike on Aug 5, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
They are out there
Minority group, but they exist.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 5, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks OBR, thus my 99% remark.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
Oh no doubt
but you said 99% percent of the people here,
But I believe 99% of us here (site chiefs, authors/mods, and members)
feel good about Jimbo’s chance. That percent, unfortunately goes down, if you are talking about people that don’t follow closely or follow and haven’t seen or have participated in this site. When FSU loses, all those tools will do a search for firejimbo.com and thanks to all of your comments with that site, they will find this site, and it will be nextlevel multiplied by a tub of tard. And I will blame that on you.
/bwahahhahaha. This thread is getting colossally ridiculous. Thought I would add on.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
www.banOneBarrelRumforlife.com
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
by FrankDNole on Aug 5, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I truly, honestly believe with 100% of my being that people like PJD want Jimbo to fail.
PJD is convinced that Jimbo “conned” his way into FSU, and slowly forced Bobby out, with every single compliment paid to Coach Bowden being completely 100% insincere and backhanded.
They worshipped the man. Not the program.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
And
If/when FSU loses to OU, they will make themselves known. Probably on this board.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 5, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Absolutely.
Not required, but would keep the haters at bay.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
by onebarrelrum on Aug 5, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Absolutely
It would take monumental fail this year on Fisher’s part for me to start screamin for the boot.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
With our schedule, what would be a monumental failure?
Hell, read AC’s projections. We’re not world beaters.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
monumental failure would be:
losing season, defense in the bottom 90’s, losses to virginia and some other crap team, etc…
My projection is the same as AC’s, 8-4.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
I don't get it
I experienced the glory years and I loved Bowden, but it’s time to move on!
by SeminoleMike on Aug 5, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Same here. That is why I would not classify you or I as a Bowdenista. But you better believe they are out there lurking, and not because they don't love FSU, they just learned to love Bobby more and feel he was bigger than the program.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
yes, is true
but that doesnt mean we need to lower expectations..
no need to spoil the fun because someone is lurking out there ready to pounce on “unmet expectations.”
Fisher will survive a long time, even if we dont win, and no Bowdenista can do anything about it, so to me, in my opinion, we don’t have to worry about Bowden’s gang, they are history. No matter how hard Ann Bowden wants it, Terry Bowden is not going to come here and coach…… God forbid.
We have real coaches now, that care about the program, so there is no need to go retrograde… it was hard enough the first time.
by Mr. Seminole on Aug 5, 2010 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
By failing I mean let's say we go 7-6 again. If that happens, can't you see how some of "those people" would consider this failing and they would scurry out of the floorboards like the cockroaches they are, and ask
What would it have hurt to give Bobby one more year?
If you can’t see this happening, either you are a better person than I am, or my 32 years of following FSU football has made me very cynical of some of the fan-base I have gotten to know during that time.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
Oh no, I can see that
There will surely be some critics if we go 7-6. It was the “hoping for Jimbo to fail” part that I was having a hard time with.
I guess some folks were in denial that we were slipping? I don’t know how they could be if they watched the Florida games the past five years.
by SeminoleMike on Aug 5, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
"Why couldn't we let him try to get to 400? Come on guys. JoePa is almost dead, Bobby just needed a couple more years."
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
Well if they players on the field feed off our expectations then we as a program are in more trouble than you or I would believe. How can you or I honestly say we expect 10 wins or a NC next year when we have been 7-6 three out of the last four years? Learning a completely new scheme, new coaches and honestly learning how to win again.
Do we really need to write something on the subject of fan expectations having absolutely nothing to do with a team's on-field performance?
It seems like some people aren’t grasping this concept.
>>---l>
don't be naive
programs are never so one-dimensional — there is a complex interaction from all parties, including Tomahawknation.com etc…
by Mr. Seminole on Aug 5, 2010 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
If you think that what we write on a blog impacts the play on the field of FSU's players
Then there’s no need to continue discussing this.
>>---l>
Fk it all
Practice starts today. Let’s move past speculation, and starting watching some heads crack.
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Aug 5, 2010 9:49 AM EDT reply actions
Hoping to be there
Sunday and take some pics. Hopefully no rain. Will post the good ones.
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
sooners
you have done a great job dissecting the game “on paper”. However, if you look at the Big 12 last year, they were terrible and I am including Texas. Texas played absolutely NOBODY, especially outside the Big 12 and sailed into the National Championship game. And they play nobody this year.I realize there are enormous questions regarding the FSU defense but our new DC is a Stoops and one would think he will be ready for his brother’s offensive scheme. I think our offense will give people fits this year. We have a stable of running backs and if Fortson can hang on to the ball this year he will be very good. I don’t think OU will be ready for Ponder and crew or our special teams. GO NOLES!
Texas was terrible?
I am pretty sure you lose all credibility with that statement
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
Texas played NOBODY
I’m telling you, Texas was no good. As soon as McCoy was “injured” you could see Saban go into defensive mode. Plus, the Alabama QB was playing with cracked ribs. The Big 12 is more like the soft 12.
A couple of issues here
Texas was not terrible. They were an excellent team that could play with Alabama (but probably still lose) with a healthy QB. They didn’t play anybody OOC because they don’t have to. It’s smart. Also, having a Stoops as a DC does not mean that we’ll have some inside track on OU’s offense. Bob, like his brother currently working for us, is a defensive guy. Regardless, the book on the OU offense is out and has been out for quite a while. Why should OU not be ready for a team that they have better football players than and are playing at home?
>>---l>
I wish we were turrible enough to wind up playing for a NC and wind up #2 with a 13.1 record.
Turrible, turrible, turrible.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
by FrankDNole on Aug 5, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've EVER heard on TN.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
The Big 12 did not live u pto its expectations last yr, but it was still a lot better conference than the ACC. Nebraska had a top 5 defense. Texas was a top 5 team. OU would have been a top 5 team with a healthy Bradford. Texas A&M has a potential Heisman dark horse QB, OK state last yr was loaded at the skill positions. I wil lagre ethat the North was a weak division, but the Big 12 could play with anybody. And very few of the top 25 play any “good” teams out of conference, there is no reason to
new coaches, new scheme
all of you that think FSU cannot turn things around this year are forgetting what Stoops did at OU. He was in the National Championship his first year (and beat FSU). The Noles will be great this year.
Keep perpetuating the falsehood until someone believes it, but the fact is Oklahoma only won 7 games in Stoops' first year.
actually
it was the 2nd year under Stoops that he won the NC. The first year he went to the Independence Bowl in lovely Shreveport, LA.
Colorado Rockies correspondent at My Team Rivals (www.mtrmedia.com/rockies) and my own site Rockies Reporter (www.rockiesreporter.wordpress.com) and one of the top Rockies writers at the Bleacher Report.
Ahhhh Shreveport.
One of the only cities to make Pensacola look like a respectable place to live.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman
This whole argument has inspired me to be a kinder, gentler MattD.
From now on, when someone refuses to research or support their claims I will not attack them. I’ll simply point out the flaw and move on.
Yeah… probably not. But it was worth a shot.
Matt, where do I find FEI rankings for 2008 and 2009?
I need to see if a thought I have has any validity.
There is a drop down menu
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/fei
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
I didn't bother reading the above article because...
It started like this:
I started the opponent preview series last year when it became clear that many of our readers had no idea what they were talking about when discussing FSU’s opponents. I hope this series will help you to intelligently discuss Oklahoma and other 2010 opponents rather than blindly regurgitating poorly researched drivel spewed by lazy talk-radio guys.
Can you say Superiority complex? I will somehow strive to be worthy to read TN. Until then I will remain and Unintelligent cog in the great TN machinery.
Btw, its attitudes like the one that started the article that made me drop Warchant.
Well when we see statments like this how can you argue
- Stating a team has a 50/50 chance to win every week is wrong.
- Stating that FSU has outrecruited OU is wrong
- Stating OU has a brand new QB is wrong
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
I'll reply as such:
1. The comment that started the article came 1st before the replies.
2. If the article is good then no snarky comments are necessary.
Those comments were from previous OU articles, not this one
Wants to live in a world where Batting Average goes the way of the Dodo!
Crap, I forgot to be kinder and gentler, so I deleted the original and I am going to try again.
I’m sorry Diablo_2 got his feelings hurt.
But there have been 2 separate people who have claimed Oklahoma won a NC in Bob Stoops’ first year in this thread. Both have been rebuffed. Is it that vast of a leap to think that maybe our fans could use a little tutoring about teams that are not FSU?
And that's not even a matter of opinion. It is a fact. And we've still had people regurgitate the wrong information despite evidence to the contrary.
So maybe, just maybe, there needs to be a source of information that will help a lot of us understand the football world outside of Tallahassee.
That’s about as kind and gentle as I can get.
No hurt feelings here.
I just thought it wasn’t necessay to point out how ignorant we readers are before starting the article. I read magazines and newspapers to get info from writers who are more knowledgable on subjects than I am. These writers manage to impart that info without 1st pointing out how inferior my knowledge is. Hell if I knew more than the writer I’d be writing for the publication not buying and reading it.
On a side note: reading some of the responses here really reminds me of the WC boards where disagreement (informed or not) got you ridiculed and booted by knee jerk reactionaries like Madcow and Seminole64. I hope that doesn’t start hapening here.
No one has been booted because of this thread. So as much as you might want to make it look like we're the same, this is not WC.
We have always delivered arguments with a certain amount of snark. You’ve been here long enough, you know how we do.
And half of it is all in fun anyway. There is no one I’ve disagreed with here that I wouldn’t sit with at a game. Stuff happens. People are opinionated.
by MattDNole on Aug 5, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I never wrote it was THE SAME.
or that anyone got booted because of this thread just that some of the comments were reminding me of the old WC board. I like TN or I would visit here.
And I stand by my original statement that the comment was unnecessay.
I'm too am gonna have to agree with you that maybe the first sentence wasn't really necessary, and I can see how it might rub some the wrong way and detract from a meticulously researched story.
But I will not be the one to recommend to Bud that he remove it, because it is after all his site, he know’s what’s best, and he alone has made TN what it is today. I do know that as the site manager, he gets very frustrated having to repeat the same points over and over for some who refuse to see the whole picture from a more advanced point of view. There are some who just aren’t able to see the big picture, but no one is banned if they don’t agree with the majority. I do know that the only time anyone gets banned is they are disrespectful, argumentative/combative and don’t follow the community guidelines. I don’t have the exact number, but I am willing to bet only around 25 members have ever been permanently banned.
Also, I have offered my opinion on previous occasions that every single one of us, mod’s and members, needs to be less aggressive to those that refuse to agree with our or the site’s general POV. Sometimes, you have to know when to walk away, and when someone is a lost cause. However in a blog atmosphere, we often type out things and continue arguing debating where we would not waste our time if we were face-to-face.
There are two features I wish we had here on TN that would make this site even better. They are,
A) A ignore button, and
2) A edit feature.
Unfortunately, that is something that is totally out of Bud’s control.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
by FrankDNole on Aug 5, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And when to run screaming and crying like a scared little girl. That is what I usually do.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
thank you for the kinder and gentler side
Personally, I dont post from the perfect knowedge of facts, I just post from my heart. Now the heart can be wrong, but I dont need a sledge hammer to wake me up to the facts..
by Mr. Seminole on Aug 5, 2010 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, it's completely accurate...
Most people are vastly underinformed when discussing FSU’s opponents because all they do is repeat what they hear from national pundits. They don’t put the effort into research that Bud does. He does the previews for every team and then uses them as reference material when writing the previews for each game during the week.
>>---l>
Our readers often were clueless about FSU and much more so about the opponents.
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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What is insanity?
Making insane statements on a football blog? Or continuing to argue with those continuing to make insane statements on a football blog? The world may never know…
Truly Amazing!!!
Let me start off with saying that I am a die-hard Sooner, so this is hostile territory for me. But thank you so much for writing this! This was a refreshing read in a summer that has been full of god-awful game previews. I truly admire someone who can thoroughly break down an upcoming opponent, especially when the two teams haven’t met since the 2000 Orange Bowl. Just about everything you have in this preview is spot on! I wish I knew of a Sooner fan who could write such a respectable preview of OU’s opponents, but sadly I haven’t come across one yet. If any you FSU fans make it to Norman for the game, I hope its a great trip for y’all and hopefully we can even share a drink when it’s all said and done! Good luck on the 11th and cheers!
by Jeff Frederick Jr. on Aug 5, 2010 3:17 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for joining and posting Jeff. I am sure Bud will appreciate your remarks. Good luck to OU also and hopefully it will be a exciting game.
>-----:----:------>Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
I imagine expectations for this season are pretty high in Norman.
Christian Ponder: Your favorite quarterback's favorite quarterback.
Cautiously optimistic? There’s a lot of reason to get excited but I’m one of the few that really is thinking this season could be special for OU right now.
Colorado Rockies correspondent at My Team Rivals (www.mtrmedia.com/rockies) and my own site Rockies Reporter (www.rockiesreporter.wordpress.com) and one of the top Rockies writers at the Bleacher Report.
I'm also an OU Guy
and I have to say this was a great preview as well. Good job!
Colorado Rockies correspondent at My Team Rivals (www.mtrmedia.com/rockies) and my own site Rockies Reporter (www.rockiesreporter.wordpress.com) and one of the top Rockies writers at the Bleacher Report.
I'm going to leave this here w/o further comment until later (I have to go out for a bit)...
Depth Chart
(Pos, name, star rank)
FSU
Offense:
LT Andrew Datko 3
Rhonne Sanderson 3
LG Rodney Hudson 3
Henry Orelus 3
C Ryan McMahon 4
Jacob Stanley Walk-on
RG David Spurlock 3
Antwane Greenlee 3
RT Zebrie Sanders 3
Bryan Stork 3
TE Beau Reliford Not evaluated
Will Tye 3
WR Bert Reed 3
Willie Haulstead 3
WR Taiwan Easterling Not evaluated
Jarmon Fortson 3
QB Christian Ponder 2
EJ Manuel 4
FB Lonnie Pryor 3
Debrale Smiley JC
RB Chris Thompson 3
Jermaine Thomas 4
Defense
DE Brandon Jenkins 4
Dan Hicks 3
DE Marcus White JC
Toshman Stevens 3
NT Jacobbi McDaniel 5
Amp McCloud JC
DT Everette Dawkins 3
Moses McCray 3
LB Nigel Bradham 4
Vince Williams 3
LB Kendall Smith 3
Jeff Luc 5
LB Mister Alexander 4
Carr/Jones* 4
CB Greg Reid 5
Dionte Allen 4
CB Xavier Rhodes 3
Ochuko Jenije 1
S Nick Moody 3
JuJuan Harley 3
S Terrance Parks 4
Gerald Demps 4
Average star ranking for FSU = 3.26
OU:
Offense
LT 70 Cory Brandon 3
79 Darryl Williams 3
LG 77 Stephen Good 4
68 Bronson Irwin 3
C 61 Ben Habern 3
51 Brian Lepak Walk-on
RG 75 Tyler Evans 3
72 Tavaris Jeffries JC
RT 76 Jarvis Jones 2
73 Josh Aladenoye 3
TE 82 James Hanna 4
47 Trent Ratterree Walk-on
WR 24 Dejuan Miller 4
8 Brandon Caleb 3
WR 16 Jaz Reynolds 3
85 Ryan Broyles 3
QB 12 Landry Jones 4
15 Drew Allen 3
FB 32 Marshall Musil 2
48 Brandon Crow 3
RB 7 DeMarco Murray 5
23 Jermie Calhoun 5
Defense
DE 44 Jeremy Beal 4
90 David King 2
NG 97 Jamarkus McFarland 4
53 Casey Walker 3
DT 86 Adrian Taylor 3
92 Stacey McGee 3
DE 84 Frank Alexander 3
95 Justin Chaisson 4
SLB 56 Ronnell Lewis 4
12 Austin Box 4
MLB 42 Tom Wort 4
31 Daniel Franklin 3
WLB 28 Travis Lewis 3
55 Jaydan Bird 3
FCB 19 Demontre Hurst 3
9 Gabe Lynn 4
SS 27 Sam Proctor 3
5 Joseph Ibiloye 4
FS 20 Quinton Carter 3
13 Marcus Trice 3
BCB 3 Jonathan Nelson 4
32 Jamell Fleming 3
Average star rankings for OU 2 deep = 3.27
I didn’t count JuCo transfers for either team as ESPN doesn’t not evaluate them. FSU’s total didn’t include the 2 unranked players or the one walk-on, and OU’s total was not penalized for having 2 walk-ons as I simply omitted them from the count. If you feel the proper thing to do was grade the unranked/walk-ons as a zero, the adjusted stars would be FSU = 3.02, OU = 3.11.
I’d like your opinion. Is this a substantial talent differential?
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
I think the issue is player development on one side of the ball.
Our D is way behind their D.
Way oversimplified:
OU O > FSU D (but the gap here is MUCH bigger than the gap below)
OU D < FSU O
Giddy-up!
Depends.
Rivals has half those guys evaluated higher.
Ponder 3
Reed 4
CT 4
JT 3
Greenlee 4
Haulstead 4
Easterling 3
Fortson 5.9 – 4
Pryor 4
McCray 4
William 4
Smith 4
Luc 4
Jenije 4 – really 1 star? I thought there were no 1 stars….
Moody 4
3.02 and 3.11
is honestly a tie to me. ~.1 means almost nothing to me, that’s less than my made-up % of error.
Like the other poster said, its all about player development and further, identifying quality players beyond the physical stats rivals and espn provide.
Now, see, if you had just listed class next to each, we could work something out..
Where, perhaps, a player got + some % for each year in a good developmental system — basically, our O, and OU’s O&D. Maybe diminishing returns… something like +20% for 1 year, compound an additional 10% for 2 years, and then another 5% for 3 prior years… maybe 10% for a redshirt year, maybe -10% for an injury. For our defenders, I might give them +5% for each year, up until this one, and give guys that went through spring +10%. You see where I’m going here?
The percentages would be arbitrary, but it would at least give a framework for how much value to assign development, and the impact associated with it.
Any guess about development would be subective...
How about player weights, would that be an agreeable measure of development…?
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Stars aren't subjective?
And the reason for the exercise is to pinpoint just how much of a difference development could account for.
The list of star rankings here is a statement of fact. Nothing more and nothing less.
This is a record of the stars given out by ESPN to these players. We have no way to compare how much more effective OU’s S&C has been vs FSU with Stroud and now Viloria. Throwing them a curve to their ranking based on what we assume is a better S&C program seems futile. How much better, if any? How could we possible determine that other than a guess..?
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
The key result from the analysis would be the finding that...
“if OU’s development was X% better than FSU’s, it results in a X% gap in the quality of the roster.”
The development %s have no intrinsic value in themselves; what this exercise would do is illustrate the importance relative to current the quality of the team for talent + years in system, as compared to recruiting rankings alone.
Great work. I'll take a look tomorrow.
by MattDNole on Aug 5, 2010 10:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
My initial reaction is that you have apparently changed the argument from "who has recruited better" into "who has better players left."
Diversionary, but effective. I’ll look at it more when I’m not on my phone.
by MattDNole on Aug 5, 2010 10:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Isn't that what matters?
Why would we be concerned with kids that won’t be on the field?
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
I think I can explain the issue here...
It relates to “expectations” again, but this time in terms of the projected quality of a player developing from a pool of recruits of varying initial pedigree. To illustrate, we’ll take one position in isolation — we’ll say we’re looking at enrolled rankings of strongside DEs. All else is equal in this exercise, in terms of development — coaching/S&C are the same at Team A and Team B.
Team A has a 5*, a 4* and two 3*s duking it out for the spot (avg = 3.75*). It just so happens that the 3* is a late-blooming Andre Wadsworth and puts on 40 lbs of metal in quick fashion, and shoots up to the top of the chart. One of the 4*’s also develops at a surprising pace, and he ends up taking the 2nd team job. Your 2-deep ends up looking like 3* – 1st team; 4* – 2nd team; (avg = 3.5*).
Now, Team B recruited a 4*, a 3*, a 2*, and then a walk-on (1*) competing for the position. These kids generally progress as they’re expected to, and the 4* starts and he is backed up by the 3* (avg = 3.5*).
The analysis of the 2-deep would show that, despite the much more highly regarded recruiting base possessed by Team A, each team now has an average talent of 3.5* in the 2-deep. So, do we then assume that the talent is equivalent at the positions?
Probability says NO. The deeper, more talented initial crop increases the likelihood that a superior player will emerge from the competition, regardless of their initial star ranking. The equation is loaded on the front-end to generate a superior outcome. This is where the flaw could come in, looking at depth charts vs. enrolled recruiting rankins.
I will add the caveat that the numbers I’ve seen between initial enrolled rankings at FSU and OU that you and others have provided don’t suggest a huge initial gap — but I think we are still faced with a shortfall due to a lack of well-developed juniors and seniors on FSU’s defense. Even if we were starting from even footing, they will have outpaced us on this front.
arrdub, please tell me what you know about OU's S&C program....
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
K?
(a) it was superior to FSU’s.
(2) so was their defensive skill/technique coaching.
(d) ?
(#) profit.
by arrdub on Aug 6, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Glad you appreciated the humor.
Wasn’t intending to be an a$$ about it the NaGa, though —
I don’t know the ins and outs, but just think points (a) and (2) are fairly evident from the outcomes we’ve seen over the past few years.
LOL...
You did answer my question though. You’re just guessing, which is fine except you’re stating it as fact when you have no idea. There’s a lot of that in regards to OU and you’re not the only one doing it….
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
It's not so much guesswork as logical deduction.
You’ve consistently claimed that OU hasn’t recruited much better talent. I think that’s a reasonable argument that the raw materials have not been substantially different.
How, then, did OU have the #2 ranked D and we had the 100th? Development — strength and technique — plus scheme. The fact that none of our former coaches are employed by DI schools, except our S&C coach, who is at Colorado State no longer teaching S&C proves there was a lot lacking. I don’t know why you’re arguing this point.
LOL, because I don't take people's guesses as gospel.
You still haven’t told me one thing about OU’s S&C program because you don’t know. If you choose to believe the company line on blind faith, then so be it…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
The market, brother.
If they were good at what they were doing, they’d be getting paid to do it.
And I suppose you’re arguing S&C only? Because that’s only part of development. But even in that silo, this offseason’s weight gains alone demonstrate something was missing, previously.
Which is still only an indictment our our team.
Our was lacking. We developed stamina and disregarded size and that’s not what wins football games these days. Stroud didn’t even want that job, taking it because he’d thought he’d coach LBs when Amato was made the DC (lolwrongnumber). Still, you’re comparing us to what you believe is a better S&C program, but you’re not sure…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
But it is irrelevant to the question "Has Oklahoma recruited better than FSU in the past 4 years?"
By looking at who is on the team right now, you are not looking at recruiting. Instead you are looking at a host of other factors such as player development, injuries, luck, and players leaving early.
In effect, you are saying “if you take away the superstars Oklahoma has recruited then we are equal to them.”
It is a completely different question.
Those factors are important, but those things happen to every team...
We both have very similar talent. I wanted to show the misconception of their dominance in recruiting and IMHO I accomplished that…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
No, but you are welcome to keep trying.
average enrolled ranking per mattD for the relevant classes:
So that’s like 8.5 vs 13.75 (taking some liberties with the 2010 data)?
Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.
Ok, so you know what the difference in class rankings is from 8.5 to 13.75 come out to..?
At most, .09 of a star average on the field. Do you think this a big advantage onebarrelrum?
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
They have consistently better rated football players
And if you think that our player development over the past 5 years even compares to their stable program that has produced many top draft picks, then I don’t know why anyone would further discuss this with you.
>>---l>
Look at that depth chat DK...
What do you see? Do you see better rated football players? There can’t be any further discussion because all I hear is they MUST have better player development because of program stability?!?! Really? We had the same head coach for three decades and the same DC for two, how’d that work out for us?
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Yes, I see better recruits put through a system that has produced legions of top draft picks
In comparison, we have begun to recruit on part with OU, but this is the first year in which we have any semblance of organizational structure that could hold a candle to a program like that.
>>---l>
OK, if .09 of a star average better is better recruits to you, then that's our disagreement..
No big deal…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
So we’ll say it for a final time.
OKLAHOMA HAS OUT-RECRUITED FLORIDA STATE IN EACH YEAR RELEVANT TO THIS SEASON’S GAME. OVER THIS TIME PERIOD, OKLAHOMA HAS DEVELOPED THESE PLAYERS SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER THAN HAS FLORIDA STATE. OKLAHOMA HAS BETTER FOOTBALL PLAYERS THAN FLORIDA STATE AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME. /definitive
>>—-l>
by DKfromVA on Aug 5, 2010 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions
>>---l>
LOL, definitive cause you say so eh?
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Still waiting to hear anything about OU's S&C program...
:patientbear:
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
No that's actually a recurring joke
But yes, they have better players that have been developed in a better system, and they’re playing at home. It isn’t that we can’t win, I just think we do about 25 times out of 100.
>>---l>
We're just going to have to disagree...
Go Noles… 
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Rivals enrolled rankings 2007: OU-11 FSU-25
2008: OU-6 FSU-8
2009: OU-10 FSU-12
2010 enrolled rankings have yet to be released, but in initial team rankings: OU-7 FSU-10
>>—-l>
by DKfromVA on Jul 20, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
>>---l>
And and average of 2.33 spots is "being outrecruited"?
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Of course you have IYO, but that doesn't make it true.
You have answered a completely different question with your analysis.
The question being "What does each team have left out of their recruiting classes?"
It’s asking the same question in a different way. You can only keep what you start with…
Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...
Give me a break
“BYU didn’t beat Oklahoma” / “Oklahoma has all the makings of another elite team and FSU does not. OU might be the best team FSU plays all year. Depending on your choice of casino, Oklahoma is the 2nd or 3rd favorite to win the national championship. I don’t know if OU will win the title and I don’t particularly care. I do know that FSU will be expected to lose and lose big”
by TrueSeminole2010 on Aug 6, 2010 2:19 PM EDT reply actions
I read all of this.
Wow, what a train wreck. You smell that? Its football season.
Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole
very entertaining thread
I can’t believe I read the whole thing! And still I am not convinced half the posters even bothered to read the entire article… amazing my guts don’t fall out. I had to LOL about the Mark and Bob posts early in the thread.
Thanks for your great hospitality and spirited debate. Nothing like it on the OU boards. Best of luck this year! I know I want every team on OU’s schedule to win every game, but one. Peace
And they still lost to BYU
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