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2010 Florida State Seminoles Season Prediction

We are finally here.  Tomorrow, we'll catch game one of the Jimbo Fisher Era as head coach.  As Matt Hinton says, "There's no need to recount Bowden's rise and fall as the legendary, back-slapping overseer of one of the most dominant runs of his or any era. But as much as he was the common link between the golden years and the slowly fading 'Noles of the last decade, by the end he had become an ossified, out-of-touch, nepotistic liability, a doddering figurehead overseeing a geriatric coaching staff."  No, this is about the new Florida State Seminoles.  

You've enjoyed our position previews:

Quarterbacks | Running Backs | Wide Receivers | Tight Ends | Offensive Line |Defensive Line | Linebackers | Defensive Backs

Now it is time for the predictions!

Whether FSU fans want to admit it or not, the 'Noles are in rebuilding mode.  FSU doesn't even have a winning record in the ACC over the last 4 seasons (16-16). FSU has lost 20 games in the last 4 years. And they had the 7th worst major-conference defense. There is much rebuilding to be done. 

But rebuilding at Florida State is different from rebuilding at other schools.  People expect results and fast.  Fisher, however, is focused on something else.  He's focused on the process that leads to results.  It started with hiring young, hungry coaches.  FSU's lackadaisical strength program has been scrapped in favor of a new, intense program like those seen at Alabama and Nebraska.  The mental conditioning program has been brought in to help players deal with both successes and failures.  A new, modern defensive scheme should help turn around FSU's awful defense from a year ago.  Fisher doesn't want to have good quarters or halves, he wants great plays on every play.  The attention to detail in this program is night and day compared to the lost decade.  The important thing to remember is that these changes have only been in place for a few months.  The elite teams around the country have starters stepping in for the first time, but those starters have been in the developmental programs for considerably more than FSU's have.

Offense

One of the reasons FSU fans have hope of avoiding another 6-6 season is that they've already seen Fisher turn the offense from one of the worst in major conference football to one of the best.  We expect FSU to again have one of the best ten offenses in the country, and with great health it could contend for the top unit in the country.  Christian Ponder is a legitimate Heisman talent, though his team's record likely won't let him have a legitimate shot at being a candidate.  FSU looks great at the quarterback position.  The offensive line should take a step forward and play like the best in the conference and one of the best in the country.  Rodney Hudson should continue to dominate there.  There are undoubtedly questions at receiver, but FSU has a quality group of four receivers.  It's likely this group will be more explosive than last year.  If the 'Noles can get consistent play out of its tight ends, this offense will go into another stratosphere.  Florida State also has a nice crop of backs with different talents who should help to make the ground game even more of a weapon under the tutelage of new coach Eddie Gran.  Schematically, we think FSU will use more motion.  That could be a product of new offensive coordinator James Coley's influence.  Though Fisher will continue to call the plays, Coley will be more involved in the game preparation.  

Defense

It's the new defense that FSU fans are most anxious to see. Last year's defense was simply awful.  The 88th best in the country.  Of the 66 major conference teams, FSU was only better than NC State, Louisville, Indiana, Duke, Stanford, Kansas State, Iowa State, and of course, Washington State. The last ACC defenses to be this bad in league play were some of the mid-decade Duke teams. If you want more comparisons and perspective, check out Closing The Book On The 2009 FSU Defense.  This season the group should be a lot better.  We've done a lot of research (some of which we haven't had the time to write about) to figure out just how much a defense can improve in a single season.  The answer is that it can improve a lot.  It won't go from awful to elite, but it can improve significantly.  We'll get into why in a second, but we feel confident in this chart

BCS Conference Teams FSU's Defense Was Better Than
2009 Projected 2010 

Cincinatti

Colorado

UConn

Wake Forest

Minnesota

Kansas

Kentucky

Rutgers

Maryland

Vanderbilt

Texas A&M

Baylor

Illinois

Washington

Syracuse
NC State NC State
Louisville Louisville
Duke Duke
Stanford Stanford
Kansas State Kansas State
Indiana Indiana
Iowa State Iowa State
Washington State Washington State

There were only 8 BCS conference teams that were worse than Florida State on defense last season.  This year, we would be shocked if FSU isn't at least better than 24 major conference teams (we listed the ones who should be the worst 24).  But can FSU be better than that?  Yes.  Though it would be a huge increase to go from 58th of 66th to 42nd of 66, it can be done.  Let's work backwards here.  FSU is not going to have a better defense than the elite BCS conference defenses like (ACC teams in bold) Alabama, Clemson, Florida, Iowa, Miami, Nebraska, North Carolina (if they don't lose all their players for the season), Ohio State, Oklahoma, Penn State, and Texas.  We also don't feel FSU will be in the next tier of BCS conference defenses consisting of LSU, Auburn, Boston College, Georgia, Mississippi, Oregon, Pittsburgh, South Carolina, Texas Tech, USC, Virginia Tech, West Virginia, and Wisconsin.  So better than 43nd of 66, but worse than 25th of 66.  That group of 25-43 consists of Arizona, Arizona State, Arkansas, Cal, Georgia Tech, Michigan, Michigan State, Mississippi State, Missouri, Notre Dame, Oklahoma State, Oregon State, Purdue, South Florida, Tennessee, UCLA, and Virginia.

If FSU is in that 26th-42nd range among BCS conference teams what does that mean?  

  • The Range:  It means that FSU will definitely have one of the best 50 defenses in the country.  We'd be shocked if FSU doesn't have one of the 50 best.  Note that we said best, meaning quality.  That doesn't mean top 50 in total yards.  We use advanced statistical efficiency measures to gauge performance because this blow is smart enough to understand their value and wise enough to not be misled by the flaws in raw counting stats.   FSU's defense could be as good as 25th in the country.  We do not expect that, but it is conceivable that if everything breaks right for the 'Noles defense, including perfect health, it could happen.
  • In conference, It means FSU will have the 6th, 7th, or 8th best defense in the ACC.  We see it ranking behind Boston College, Clemson, Miami, North Carolina, and Virginia Tech, but ahead of NC State, Wake Forest, Maryland and Duke.  FSU will battle Virginia and Georgia Tech for those 6-8 spots.
  • Our official Tomahawk Nation prediction for the defense is that it will be in the 26th-42nd range, and specifically the 37th best defense in the country, as measured by FootballOutsiders' F/+ Defensive Efficiency Measure.  That would be a tremendous jump, from 88th to 37th, but we think that jump can be made.  

Come inside for more!

Star-divide

There are several reasons why we think FSU can be one of the best 40 defenses in the country.

First, is the tremendous strength and size gains made by the defensive line.  With only one upperclassman on the two-deep, this group won't be excellent, very good, or even good.  But these young pups can be above average, an improvement on last season.  Better coaching for the defensive ends (they had none last year) and actual communication between the tackles and ends should help.  Just playing fundamental football and having a plan on each snap will make a big difference.  Expecting great or even very good things from this group this season is silly. These guys are in their first year of competent coaching at end and are not physically mature like they will be in 2011 and 2012. But it's not silly to think the defensive line will play much better than last year's abomination. And it's not silly to see this group lay the foundation for a dominant unit in 2011. It's not silly to think they will be more disciplined and play with better technique. With the lack of quality depth here, health will be key. Losing Moses McCray for the year already hurt. Another injury like that could mean the difference between another 6-6 record and potentially going 9-3. FSU must avoid injury if it is to have above average play here.  

We expect improvement from the linebackers this year. The difference in coaching will be night and day. Having a better defensive line in front of them will make a big difference. This isn't one of the best groups in the ACC (BC and Carolina have the two best by far), but the starters aren't awful. Actually having assignments will make a big difference. Staying healthy here is key as the dropoff from the starters to the 6th, 7th, or 8th guy is quite large.

And the secondary.   The ACC is absolutely loaded at defensive back, but FSU's corners stack up well against the league. We would only take the corners from Miami, North Carolina (provided they aren't kicked off the team), Virginia, and perhaps Clemson over this group. FSU could have the top corner group in the league next season, however, as these young talents have a second year in the scheme and continue to progress. Safety is a different story. We are really hoping that FSU's safeties can be average this season. It is our guess that FSU will trade some play-making chances for safety, keeping the deep guy deeper in order to avoid the big play. We are not particularly confident in this group and would trade them for every other ACC safety tandem with the exception of NC State, Wake, Duke, Virginia, and Georgia Tech. This group is very much wait and see.  Patience will be required as FSU changes over to its new scheme.

Special Teams

Expect excellence.  Shawn Powell has improved his punting a phenomenal amount per all reports.  FSU has perhaps the most dangerous return combo in the country in Greg Reid and LaMarcus Joyner.  And kicker Dustin Hopkins showed at the end of last season why he was the #1 kicker recruit in the country.  This is one of the better special teams units in the country and the attention to detail from coach Gran should make a big difference.

Season Prediction

A team with a top-10 offense, a top-40 defense, and good special teams.  That sounds like a pretty good team.  We do think FSU will be a good team, the best since 2005 in fact.  But this is also a murderous schedule, featuring Florida, @ Oklahoma, @ Miami, Clemson, Boston College, BYU, North Carolina, and the always dangerous Thursday night trip to NC State.  In short, FSU's final ranking in the polls will be worse than how it has played, because lazy voters pay attention to record and not resume.  

We think FSU will be one of the best 20 teams in the country, but will the 'Noles have the record to finish in the top 25?  Probably.  The goal is to play better football and not to achieve a specific win-loss record.  But we do think this team can accomplish some benchmarks.  

Forget Oklahoma.  Forget Florida.  This season is all about trying to win the Atlantic Division for the first time in 5 years.  FSU can take the Atlantic Division, but it will have stiff competition from reigning-champion Clemson, and the Boston College Eagles, who get to feast on both Coastal Division patsies, UVA and Duke.  It doesn't matter if FSU goes out to Oklahoma and gets drilled, like the odds currently predict.  It doesn't matter if FSU has an off game against BYU.  The first five games are all about getting ready for the showdown with a loaded Miami team.  Here's how we see FSU's chances of winning in each game (average of all our predictions):

99.8% Samford
31.3% @ Oklahoma
80.3% BYU
86.8% Wake Forest
83.3% @ Virginia
45.0% @ Miami
63.0% Boston College
71.5% @ NC State
67.0% UNC
61.5% Clemson
84.0% @ Maryland
37.3% UF

That's 8.1 wins overall and 5.62 in conference.  What does that mean for a season prediction?  An 8-4 overall record, 6-2 in conference, and a real shot at a division championship.  

The way we see it, FSU starts 4-1 and hopefully works out some kinks.  Then we see the Noles finishing 4-3, likely losing to Miami, UF, and one of the teams not named Maryland.  That should have the 'Noles in the hunt for the division title.  FSU can only control how it plays on the field.  If FSU is 6-2 in conference and beats Boston College, but the Eagles are 7-1 in conference by virtue of being a senior-laden team beating up on a weak schedule, FSU can't really get down on itself.  Here's how we would feel based on certain potential outcomes and factors including health and fumble luck (fumble recoveries are random and not a skill, yet they have a huge impact on a season):

  • If this team has great health and great fumble luck, it needs to go 9-3 or better
  • If this team has great health and average fumble luck or average health and great fumble luck, it needs to go 8-4 or better
  • If this team has average health and average fumble luck it needs to go 8-4 or better. 
  • If this team has great health but awful fumble luck or awful health but great fumble luck, it needs to go 7-5 or better.  
  • If this team has average health and awful luck or awful health and average fumble luck, it needs to go 6-6 or better and at least go to a bowl.  Against this schedule and with its depth, FSU really cannot afford either of those.
  • The only way it would be understandable for this team not to improve on last year's 6-6 record (meaning FSU goes 5-7 and misses a bowl) is if it is decimated by injuries at key spots and has really bad bounce luck.  You don't want to think about that possibility, but it is of course possible. 
  • There's also a very good chance that FSU will lose to UF and Miami but still show a lot of improvement.  Those teams' starting talent is better than FSU's and it is considerably more developed.  The possibility of beating them isn't foreclosed, but judging this team based on those two games, and not on the overall play of the team throughout the season, would be a mistake.

Anything between 7-5 and 9-3 is really pretty predictable.  But we think an 8-4 record (6-2 in conference) and a trip to Charlotte for the ACC Championship is the most likely scenario.  The real key to the season isn't measured in wins and losses or a division championship, it's in playing better football and showing improvement on a down-to-down basis.  That's much more important than wins and losses.

The future for this program is really bright.  In a way, I wish I could fast-forward to 2011 when we can really see the fruits of this new staff's labor.  But part of enjoying the successes is having been there for the growing pains.  This is Christian Ponder's final year.  Coach Fisher's first year.  For most FSU fans, this will be the first time in their adult lives that FSU has a new coach.  Let's enjoy the process.  FSU will blow a few teams out this year and will itself get blown out in at least one game.  It will win a close game and it will lose a close game.  It's all part of the growing process.  FSU simply needs to survive 2010.  Just survive.  

We hope you will join us here every Saturday for our exciting live-threads for gameday and the great community.  It's been a tremendous off-season and here's to an even better season.  

Comment 169 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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WOW!!

Forget Oklahoma. Forget Florida. This season is all about trying to win the Atlantic Division for the first time in 5 years.

There was a time when I never thought I’d read something like that about my alma mater.

by Diablo_2 on Sep 3, 2010 11:55 AM EDT reply actions  

Thanks Bobby!

Shot a Gator in Jean Shorts just to watch him die.

by AMFKNole on Sep 3, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

24 hours and 4 minutes to go.

Almost there, folks.

"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes

"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher

by Drew J Jones on Sep 3, 2010 11:55 AM EDT reply actions  

Post of the year

Nice work, fellas.

"It wasn’t that it was slippery or anything like that. It was just, dadgum, my hands and the balls were so wet..." - Tim Hudson

"And those two guys at the end. My God. Jonny (Venters) and Billy (Wagner), just awesome." - Bobby Cox

by KoKo the Monkey (T-Bone) on Sep 3, 2010 12:06 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

+1

Might be the best article that has every been put up on this site.

by FSUKook on Sep 3, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

The real key to the season isn’t measured in wins and losses or a division championship, it’s in playing better football and showing improvement on a down-to-down basis.

Can you say “Process Oriented”?

by jasonole59 on Sep 3, 2010 12:09 PM EDT reply actions  

This blog is Process Oriented

Shot a Gator in Jean Shorts just to watch him die.

by AMFKNole on Sep 3, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I abslutely agree about Bud's previous statement

FSU 2010 is Alabama 2008.

The final record will not show the development of players on the team. 2011 will.

"…You can't get enough Lonnie Pryors on your football team." -Eddie Gran

by harper.rb on Sep 3, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree....

this blog is clearly mutliple.

by Dcubbienole on Sep 3, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think I'm waterboy

FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st down.

by ricobert1 on Sep 3, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah it is the "process"

It is like the terminator, it never stops, nothing can stop it until it finally beats you down!

Don't miss the new best selling books by the Bowden clan

Just One Star Player And One Big Play Away Forever…By Bobby Bowden
Burned In Effigy By Classless WVU Fans...By Ann Bowden
Just Pay The Man.....By Terry Bowden
They Dared To Fire Our Arses....By Burning Ann
Purple Haze, Prozac, Geritol, Senility, Back Stabbing And Losing…By Ann Bowden

by DocHoliday2 on Sep 3, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s all part of the growing process. FSU simply needs to survive 2010. Just survive.

This is perfectly said.

>>---l>

by DKfromVA on Sep 3, 2010 12:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Thank you Bud.

You are at elite level of information and analysis. Let’s see if our Noles can match your level of execution. :)

Bring back Korey Mangum — a true Nole!

by SoCalNole on Sep 3, 2010 12:10 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Great Job as usual!

Was looking forward to this all morning. I feel like a little kid on Christmas eve.

by RonNoles on Sep 3, 2010 12:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Great job Bud!

I’m fired up for tomorrow!

by fsunole23 on Sep 3, 2010 12:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Good write up.

But BYU is Mountain West. Non-BCS

DISCLAIMER: Everything posted by DutchFSU operates under the premise that Christian Ponder remains healthy during the entire 2010 football season. As well as the entire Seminole offensive line, most of the cheerleaders, and quite a few of those seated in the student section. Maybe even a hot dog vendor.

by DutchFSU on Sep 3, 2010 12:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Yep, fixed it.

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Sep 3, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, must have missed it in the refresh.

My bad.

DISCLAIMER: Everything posted by DutchFSU operates under the premise that Christian Ponder remains healthy during the entire 2010 football season. As well as the entire Seminole offensive line, most of the cheerleaders, and quite a few of those seated in the student section. Maybe even a hot dog vendor.

by DutchFSU on Sep 3, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

less then 24 hours!!!

Great honest feedback, Love it. When I first came to the site (about 11 months ago) I was appalled (and agreed) that you guys were calling out our defense. I thought this was just another site dogging our boys out.
What a relief, when I followed daily, how knowledgable you all are. FINALLY being able to gets the facts instead of fluff.
You have earned my business, keep it coming!!!
Go Noles!

by BucsNolesRays on Sep 3, 2010 12:20 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

2010

Let us not wish away 2010, Ponder’s senior season, Fisher’s first season, and the turnaround season for FSU.

by NCSeminoles on Sep 3, 2010 12:22 PM EDT reply actions  

When you put your confidence percentage up, I wonder?

What does it means to say that you are 80% confident for a win over UVa, for example?

Are you saying that if FSU plays UVa 10, FSU wins 8 of them?

This is where that analysis causes me some trouble. Let’s say you have a schedule where your confidence level is 70% for all 12 games. Every game is exactly the same. Using the math, that says FSU wins 8.4 games that year. Even if we round to 9, if you give me 12 games that I am 70% confident on, I have to think that 10 wins is probable personally. And honestly, it’s a disappointint result UNLESS there are extraordinary circumstances.

That formula may very well work in Vegas, but I’m not sure it works out otherwise.

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 12:25 PM EDT reply actions  

It definitely works out otherwise and that's why Vegas makes money and people who can't understand it lose money to Vegas

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Sep 3, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Never put down a bet on a season win totals

Have bet on games before. Always understood that the book picks a number that they don’t believe is going to be the actual result but rather, picks the number that half of the betting public will bet on team A and the other half on Team B.

It would seem to me then, that the way to pick the number of wins (for Vegas) would be, the number that half would bet the over and half would bet the under, wouldn’t it?

All of that said, if there’s a schedule out there that says, “12 games, 70% confidence on all 12,” I will bet the over.

Similarly, if there is one that says “12 games, 30% confidence on all 12” which equates to 4 wins, I’m betting the under.

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

But Vegas often sets up sucker bets
All of that said, if there’s a schedule out there that says, "12 games, 70% confidence on all 12," I will bet the over.

Of what number? I’d bet over 8 and under 9 if I was forced, but really wouldn’t bet anything unless it was 7 or 10. Ditto the other scenario

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Sep 3, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

My understanding is

At 70%, the number in Vegas on 12 games would be 8.4 and even if it were rounded up, which it shouldn’t be, to 9, I would be the over, rather than the under. Or, if the over/under was 8.5, which I guess would make sense, I’d bet the over.

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

If it's 8.4 then I could easily see 8 or 9 wins. Almost too close to call.

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
Follow Tomahawk Nation's Twitter feed!

by Bud Elliott on Sep 3, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

In reading this, couple of quick thoughts

When you get to be favored by 5, your winning percentage is 68. Not sure I get that. I would get at 8 points. But winning by 5 is about the same as winning by 4, based on the point values of the scores.

This methodology is curious and new to me for sure.

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Forget the spreads stuff. Just forget it

Just go with “win X out of 10 times”

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
Follow Tomahawk Nation's Twitter feed!

by Bud Elliott on Sep 3, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
Follow Tomahawk Nation's Twitter feed!

by Bud Elliott on Sep 3, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

i somewhat agree with him with the don't bet on the season thing.

its really too difficult to accurately predict an entire season. Most likely scenarios are between 7-9 wins but injuries, suspensions, weather, morale, those weird “here’s something to play for” type of boosts, possible regression of some of our guys, possible guys coming out of nowhere to contribute.

I’d never put money down on FSU’s win total this season. With teams like Bama, UF, Ohio State, etc you can look at trends and make predictions that way. With FSU this season there are too many different things that I have questions about.

Is Ponder legit? Will BYU, UNC, GTech Ponder be there all season? Or is Clemson 2009, Wake Forest 2008, BC 2008, etc Ponder going to sneak in a few games?

Are our WR’s going to step up? Could some of our raw yet highly rated prospects explode into some stud?

What is the measurable difference between a lazy, incompetent, getting rid of coaches mid season, type of staff with a terrible questionable leadership hierarchy and our current highly rated, experienced, all on the same page type of staff.

How many more wins is that worth?

How beneficial will the new S&C program be for our team late in the season.

With the amount of young raw talent on the defense, will somebody step up faster than they’re supposed to? Will a Luc or Jones be some sort of Freshman All-American stud difference maker?

Will the team learn the new defensive schemes well enough?

The way I see it is depending on injuries and many of these questions above, we could be anywhere from 6 wins to 12 wins. We have a stud offensive line, a NFL caliber QB, great RB’s, a few good wr’s and a collection of young raw talented wr’s, one of the most dangerous return games in the nation, a collection of talented defensive players that have had little coaching before this spring, and a brand new staff.

This team is the definition of a team who’s talented enough to beat teams who we have no business beating and with the new schemes, depth issues, and youth we’re going to be a team that will likely underperform against teams we should easily beat.

I feel like we can beat anyone we play this year, if the pieces fall exactly the right way we probably could. Its extremely unlikely though.

by B-rod24 on Sep 3, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

My expectations %s have us with ~8.9 wins.

But I fully expect we go 11-1. Just wanted to let you know that, Matt.

/ducks

"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes

"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher

by Drew J Jones on Sep 3, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Completely not serious.

"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes

"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher

by Drew J Jones on Sep 3, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's Racist!!!

Oh wait… that was something different…

by coonhound on Sep 3, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wanna see a magic trick?

Did you ever even play the game? I guarantee I can coach my Little League team to beat yours 10 times out of 10.

by Caveman Mafia on Sep 3, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm right with you on 7-5, 8-4, 9-3

In the mix for the division, must beat BC to get it

"Some people believe football is a matter of life and death. I'm very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that." - Bill Shankly

by SeminoleMike on Sep 3, 2010 12:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Fumbles

For me, fumbles are similar to loose balls/on the floor rebounds in hoops. Quicker teams seem to find more of them.

I agree that luck does play a large role in the recovery but quick teams benefit there. Additionally, smart teams do, as well. For example, knock the ball out of bounds if you’re an offensive guy. Know when you can scoop it up (and when you can’t) if you’re on defense.

How many times over the years have we seen a guy on defense have a ball all to himself, only to kick it/give it back because he got greedy?

Who knows, FSU might even have won the game last year against Ga Tech if not for a defensive player who shall remain nameless, recovering a fumble but giving it back to them.

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 12:35 PM EDT reply actions  

So all the scoop and score drills are worthless then?

Any fumble recovery drills, again, worthless?

That could be. But as a former player/coach, I ain’t buying it. Some folks rebound better than others. Some get on fumbles quicker than others, near as I can tell.

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

If that's correct, then we don't care who it is going after the ball, right?

I will take Greg Reid, I will give you Craig Yarbrough.

We will throw ten loose balls out there.

I think I will win the majoriity.

And that, I would bet on ;-)

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really isn't analogous to the situation

You can’t control around whom the fumble occurs, the direction in which the ball goes, etc.

>>---l>

by DKfromVA on Sep 3, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Point is

Where does the ball land? Yarbrough and Reid are 10 feet apart, ball pops out and is 1 foot away from Yarbrough and 9 feet away from Ried. I’m taking the walk on sensation in that case. Point is you don’t know where the ball is going to bounce…

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Sep 3, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

yup

the “does practicing recovering help” thing only accounts for equal opportunity. If the ball landed at equal distance between two players, both were moving toward it at the same time, etc…

by B-rod24 on Sep 3, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

the only thing you could control out of that is recruiting as many agile players as possible

to increase the probably very slight advantage that your player could dive on the ball before someone else. It really wouldn’t make that much of a difference because of what everyone else has stated about the randomness of where the ball is fumbled, where it bounces, etc.

Grace I call Your name, Oh won’t Your smile fall over me, I’m cracked and dry on hands and knees, Oh sweet grace rain down on me I need You grace
-Phil Wickham

by FSUvaFan on Sep 4, 2010 7:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

And I'll fumble right next to yarborough and win :)

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

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by Bud Elliott on Sep 3, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

HAHA.

Exactly.

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Sep 3, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

What makes you think that Yarbrough is EVER?

What makes you think Yarbrough is EVER going to be close to the ball?

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

The random nature of fumbles

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

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by Bud Elliott on Sep 3, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

But, but, but...

Don’t you get it. People have to be around the ball. Come on baby…

You know good and well that Yarbrough was never within one yard of the ball the entire year!

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Yarborough humor

MUST. END. HERE.

Or there will be hell to pay!

"We had a little come-to-Jesus meeting. And it was fire and brimstone." Jimbo Fisher on his halftime adjustments.

by Yarborough4Heisman on Sep 3, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Man

I gave you props for being faster than Greg Reid in a 10 foot race if given a 9 foot start…oh wait…

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Sep 3, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's like Bloody Mary.

Recite his name a couple times and POOF.. let the Seminole defensive blood-letting begin.

by arrdub on Sep 3, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

http://www.tomahawknation.com/2009/5/26/885586/skill-v-luck-why-fsus-should

Grace I call Your name, Oh won’t Your smile fall over me, I’m cracked and dry on hands and knees, Oh sweet grace rain down on me I need You grace
-Phil Wickham

by FSUvaFan on Sep 4, 2010 7:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I dont think recovery drills are worthless

if you and an opposing player are both in a position where you’re equally likely to recover a fumble and you practice those drills while your opponent does not, one would think that you are more likely to recover the fumble.

The thing is fumble recovery rates are unpredictable because it’s essentially a oblong ball thats going to bounce whatever way it wants to. How often does the ball just bounce right infront of a player who can recover it? Its not something controllable.

by B-rod24 on Sep 3, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

So you don't care if we have a hands team on onside kicks then?

I’ve seen many onside kicks take the two bounce and the big hop.

More often than not, the ball that squirts around crazy is the result of poor judgment, trying to pick it up and it gets kicked, etc.

I rewatched the 2000 Sugar Bowl a week ago. Opening drive, Tech fumbles. They are in position to recover it in the end zone and we “outquicked” them to the ball. They had the angle, they had position but Corey was quicker.

In my view.

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hands team

on special teams is a completely different scenario.

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Sep 3, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

and should be practiced.

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Sep 3, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

But it's recovering the oblong ball

So, all things being equal, like not being able to control when and where the ball is fumbled, you want good, quick athletes around to compete for the ball.

Love the numbers analysis but I suspect most coaches (this one will) will tell you that he wants guys on defense that are “around the ball.” That’s usually quick folks, it just is.

And it’s tough to recover the fumble if you’re not around the ball, seems to me.

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

With onside kicks

They have basically been cut down to three techniques.The high floater, pound it into the ground and hope for the bounce, or the slow dribbler. This lets you practice to defend those situations, even if you can’t reproduce the same movement f the ball.

With a legit fumble there are too many variables that affect the path of the ball and who would be around it at the time that you can’t get the same type of practice in.

by osceolafan2.0 on Sep 3, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

With a legit fumble, let me say this

With a legit fumble, we know that the guy who caused it and the guy who dropped it were the two closest people to the ball the last time somebody had a hold of it.

As to the onside kick, Ricky Anderson didn’t “hope” it bounced. He could make it bounce EVERY time. I think most kickers have learned to kick the top of the ball, have it take the two hops and then, BOING, up it goes up the elevator shaft.

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

only a portion of fumbles are like that

sometimes the ball bounces 10 yards from the carrier.

by B-rod24 on Sep 3, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know what the numbers are

But I suspect that it’s less than 20%. Of of those, I suspect that at least half of that 20% would be the ball got away due to someone trying to pick it up rather than fall on it.

Again, I don’t know that. Again, I’ll go back to the 2000 Sugar Bowl when Vick fumbled on the opening drive. There was no doubt that Corey Simon was going to end up with that football. None….

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really think the issue is

you have a specific image of a fumble in your head or an instance where you were watching your players and one recovered a fumble because he knew how to dive on the ball the right way and the other kid didn’t so your guy got to it quicker and thus recovered the ball.

This is only a portion of fumbles. too many are unrecoverable by one team thus random.

by B-rod24 on Sep 3, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or it pops right into another player's hands (O or D player)

Or it rolls out of bounds. Or the first player it comes near doesn’t have good hands. Or one guy gets it, but it gets stolen in the ensuing pile up. Etc.

by Invictus13 on Sep 3, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't mean hope the ball bounces at all

physics dictates that it will bounce. I meant you hope to get a bounce that is most variable for you. 6 inches can by the difference between your team getting it, the opponent fielding it, or the ball not going far enough.

by osceolafan2.0 on Sep 3, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

thats not a fumble

we can predict that the ball will go X direction and hopefully X amount of yards.

if player X returns a punt, gets hit, drops the ball into a crowd of 5 opposing players recovery practice isn’t going to matter.

if the qb screws up an exchange with the runningback, fumbles, and nobody else is in the backfield recovery practice isnt going to help.

If Thomas is running, the ball slips out of his hands, then bounces up chest high moving forward at a similar rate to what he is running than recovery practice isnt going to matter

by B-rod24 on Sep 3, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think we're talking about recovering the ball while it's on the ground

Forget how it got there, that’s not important. Who gets to it first, who falls on it.

I think it’s like musical chairs. This analysis would suggest that this kid’s game is entirely luck. Yet, some kids are better at it than others.

The number of fumbles over a year probably isn’t large enough to be statistically significant (help me out StatsDNole) but I would think that over time, we would find that good teams fall on the ball and bad ones don’t (at least in percentage terms).

Many years ago I had a Sports Illustrated NFL dice game that was all based on stats. And one of those was fumbles. And different teams recovered the fumbles at a different rate. Now it was only a game. But it was supposed to be based on the rates, Strat A Matic or something like that.

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

you're talking about a hypothetical scenario

where the ball is open, not moving, and two players are of equal distance away to recover. In those situations practice, muscle memory, strength (if fighting for the ball) all matter.

Fumbles in general aren’t like that because a large portion of them just happen to bounce randomly into a guys arms, at a guys feet, back toward your own team, 10 yards away from you into a group of 4 opposing players, etc.

by B-rod24 on Sep 3, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I suggest that guys who are randomly in the "right place at the right time"

Those guys are what we call good football players.

Again, I don’t know what the numbers are. But if I know nothing about the elements or condition or type of fumble, then I want good athletes going after it, not bad ones.

Interceptions off of tips are luck too ,then? But are they? A player has to be quick to react, change direction, not drop it, the whole bit.

Or am I wrong there and the tip drill would therefore be worthless, as well?

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

But you want everyone on the field to be a good athlete at this level

Catching a tip would be a repeatable skill because the flight of a football is much easier to predict. Since you can predict the path whoever reacts first and has the skill to catch the ball is in the best shape. The only ball in flight that would resemble a fumble that I can think of is a knuckleball, which every catcher says is the hardest ball to catch because you have no idea where it is going and it can change at the drop of a hat.

by osceolafan2.0 on Sep 3, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

no its not

Greg Reid having the instincts to jump a route is being a good football player.

If the ball drops in front of me I and I fall on it its not being a good football player. its taking an advantage of an opportunity

Let me put it this way. Birds crap on cars. People joke about having birds having good aim but in reality they just take a shit and a specific car happens to be driving at the specific point to get hit with it.

Some people might respond “well my car gets bird crap on it way more often than my neighbor so the birds must be trying to crap on it specifically”.

No, you just happen to have more birds in your yard so the opportunity is greater.

Its a random occurrence that is only effected by amount of opportunities.

Forced fumbles are one thing. Hypothetically you could have a player that is really good at ripping the ball out at the line of scrimmage and the force of ripping the ball out generally moves the ball into the defensive secondary. You’ve increased opportunity thus increasing your ability to recover the ball.

The issue is only a portion of fumbles are like that. Too many are non forced/controlled. A large number of fumbles are “hey look there’s the ball on the ground and i’m the only player near it. let me dive on it” type of fumbles. That number is too large to make the data not statistically significant.

by B-rod24 on Sep 3, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is my belief that to fall on the ball

I believe that to fall on the ball, you had to be near the ball.

Think if you’re a bad player, you aren’t near the ball.

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

no

if the runningback and the quarterback fumble an exchange and the quarterback falls on the ball immediately than you can’t call the defense bad players for not being near the ball if they haven’t had the opportunity to get there.

by B-rod24 on Sep 3, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

If a player goes in to recover a punt

and he muffs it and it bounces off of his hands backwards and he’s the closest player to it, the rest of the players on the field aren’t bad football players for not being near the ball.

by B-rod24 on Sep 3, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

As a coach let me say

This argument is really making points for guys that don’t hustle. I mean, why bother? Hell, it’s luck anyway where the ball ends up….

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is better to use your coaching time

teaching ball security and proper carrying technique than it is to throw the ball in the air and say, “go get it.”

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Sep 3, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

But the difference might be due to random variation

If you and I and 118 other people on this board (there are 120 Division 1 teams) toss a coin 36 times apiece (12 games with an average of about 3 fumbles per game), we’re going to get different numbers of heads. In fact, if we repeated this experiment many times, fully half the time the “best coin flipper amongst us” would have 18 more heads than the “worst”. But of course who was best and who was worst would change, because the process is totally random and has nothing to with skill.

That doesn’t mean that there is no skill in fumble recovering (I wouldn’t claim to know), but it does mean that you have to be careful about assigning any meaning to an observed difference in recovery rates.

by csfuu on Sep 3, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

We all know that luck has an impact on sporting events, and in some individual situations it is easy to see that some team or another got “lucky.” In the aggregate, though, it’s much more difficult to say. There is no concrete rule that all good breaks and bad breaks must equal out in the end, and the truth is that some teams do get luckier than others. Again, though, it’s generally pretty hard to quantify in many areas.

One of the areas we can quantify luck, however, is in regard to fumbles. Though fumbles are huge, game-changing type plays, they often come down more to luck than anything else. The research has been done, fumble recovery is nothing more than a random event — causing fumbles, whether by coughing up the football or stripping the ball on defense, is a skill, but fumble recovery is not. It’s basically little more than luck, it all mainly boils down to whether or not someone wearing your color jersey happens to be near the fumble, see it, and be able to pounce it.

Stripping the ball is a skill. Holding onto the ball is a skill. Pouncing on the ball as it is bouncing all over the place is not a skill. There is no correlation whatsoever between the percentage of fumbles recovered by a team in one year and the percentage they recover in the next year…

Fumble recovery is a major reason why the general public overestimates or underestimates certain teams. Fumbles are huge, turning-point plays that dramatically impact wins and losses in the past, while fumble recovery percentage says absolutely nothing about a team’s chances of winning games in the future…

…[T]hey have no value whatsoever for predicting future performance.

What is relevant is fumble luck and future performance, and that is what we are analyzing here. When you do that analysis, there is simply no correlation whatsoever between fumble luck in one year and fumble luck in another. In other words, there is simply no indication whatsoever that those things are connected. Again, it’s all random, the data points are all over the places. I’ve got 10 years of data at my disposal, and there is just nothing to it. No team has been able to consistently have good or bad fumble luck, you generally just bounce all over the place with nothing but white noise.

Don’t get me wrong, no one is saying that fumble recoveries are not the product of hard work and effort because they certainly are. However, in the aggregate it is a “lucky” event, meaning there is no correlation whatsoever to future performance, and meaning that at the end of the day it is not an actual skill. Successfully arguing that it is a skill can only be legitimately concluded once we have evidence of a particular team being able to consistently overachieve or underachieve in terms of fumble luck, and with 10 years of data at our disposal, we have no evidence of that.

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

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by Bud Elliott on Sep 3, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks Bud

This:

  “There is no correlation whatsoever between the percentage of fumbles recovered by a team in one year and the percentage they recover in the next year…”

is the fumble analogue of what I said about flipping coins:

  “But of course who was best and who was worst would change, because the process is totally random and has nothing to with skill.”

It definitely is evidence that recovering fumbles is a lot like flipping coins and not a skill that one should waste practice time on.

by csfuu on Sep 3, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are right

But if it is totally on luck than why is it that most of your good teams tend to get more luck than your average teams? I think it is 30% luck 70% skill. Most elite atheletes have faster reaction times and are usually stronger. I think that these certain atheletes see the ball faster and react quicker than most and in turn will recover more fumbles.

by rllewis on Sep 3, 2010 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, according to a post below...

Last year in the NFL, the Bucs were the “best” at recovering fumbles. Weren’t they, like, 3-13?

Read the studies, and see if you think that better teams are really better at recovering fumbles, or if that’s a false impression. I agree that it makes “sense” that they would be, but sometimes what seems logical really isn’t actually true.

by Invictus13 on Sep 3, 2010 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

They don't. Your assumption there is wrong.

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

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by Bud Elliott on Sep 4, 2010 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Please read this excellent post, not to presume you will change your mind, but give theory a good test and be open minded.

http://www.tomahawknation.com/2009/5/26/885586/skill-v-luck-why-fsus-should

Grace I call Your name, Oh won’t Your smile fall over me, I’m cracked and dry on hands and knees, Oh sweet grace rain down on me I need You grace
-Phil Wickham

by FSUvaFan on Sep 4, 2010 7:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'll have something on this later, but google "fluck" or "fumble luck"

It’s not like rebounding. Different ball.

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Sep 3, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fumbles and rebounds are completely different

From the force of the shot, location it hits and what angle you can instantly predict the area where a rebound will go. This is why the faster person with better training and athleticism will get the ball more often. In football you can’t predict the speed or direction of the fumble, and the shape f the ball can cause issues with picking it up or falling on it. The point of fumble drills is to make falling on the ball muscle memory, but over time who gets the ball will be fairly random

by osceolafan2.0 on Sep 3, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was talking about "loose ball" rebounds.

Rebounds where, 8 guys are on the floor, scrapping for the ball.

“Get on the floor!” is what we used to scream. And still do….

That’s what I’m talking about.

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

thats random

i know from experience. goes off of someones shoes and bounces toward somebody. the rate of fumbles in football is significantly greater than a situation where players are diving on the floor trying to grab a loose ball.

by B-rod24 on Sep 3, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

What is your experience?

I will be you that if you go back and break down FSU hoops film, you will find that Soloman Alabi did not come up with 3 loose rebound his entire career. On the other hand, you can find halves where Toney Douglas got three.

I don’t think that’s luck. I think it’s quickness. I think it’s being built low to the ground. I think it’s effort. A lot of things besides dumb, blind luck.

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think we might have had

3 loose rebounds the entire season. the “ball open on the floor scenario” rarely happens after rebounds. Sometimes somebody tips the ball and its open on the court. Recovery is mostly due to positioning (ball deflections off of passes from the top of the key toward the wings are most likely to be recovered by guards based on their proximity to where the ball is going) and effort (see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvcbMNJQVbI )

“diving for the ball” drills in basketball are more about establishing the fact that the wood floor isn’t going to kill you and you need to dive for the ball.

by B-rod24 on Sep 3, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

If this theory is correct

Then doesn’t it follow that a certain number of errors for baseball players are associated with “bad hops?” If so, those types of error numbers would change, year to year, then, because it would be random.

Yet, I think most folks will agree that some fielders handle “bad hops” better than others. The ball is round, unlike a football but it can strike a pebble or other uneven spot in the infield dirt.

That said, give me Ozzie Smith as, even though he played on turf for half of his games, somehow he seemed to handle bad luck, I mean, bad hops, better than other players.

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, some players handle bad hops better

but the offense cant recover hops. if the ball hops to third base than the right fielder isn’t going to be able to recover it no matter how good he is at it. If the ball takes a bad hop at second base and stops next to the center fielder is the center fielder now great at fielding bad hops because a motionless ball fell at his feet?

Jermaine Thomas has good hands. he recovered that one fumble in mid air. But if a ball gets fumbled at player X’s feet and thomas is farther away from it, the gap in ability is going to have 0 effect on the outcome of that recovery.

by B-rod24 on Sep 3, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't you think that some offensive linemen are more aware than others?

I’m gonna let this one die after this but I suspect (well, know) that some linemen are more aware than others.

I have made mine do up/downs for not following the ball behind the play. “Gee coach, why bother.”

“Glad you asked young man. See, I don’t know when that doofus carrying the ball isn’t going to lay it on the ground. And I want you to have the best shot possible at falling on it.”

“But coach, they say it’s all luck anyway, so what difference does it make?”

And yet, I’ve had linemen that will bust their ass behind the ball carrier. And I’ve had some that didn’t. The ones that busted their ass, saved us a couple of times.

You call it luck. I called it hustle and preparation.

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think anyone is arguing against players hustling

But hustling doesn’t mean the ball will bounce toward you and not toward the opponent. So defender “hustles,” but an OL is “aware” of the ball… well, where does that ball drop?

I would agree that good things come to those who hustle. I have no problem with you having kids work on ball-handling or improving reaction time/quickness.

But what you can’t “teach” kids is where a ball will hit the turf… and if you’re hustling in one direction to get in on the tackle and a fumbled ball bounces in the opposite direction, your hustle has just taken you (a good player) out of the recovery range. If the ball bounces forward, your hustle has put you in a great position to recover the ball.

by Invictus13 on Sep 3, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

How many fumbles in a game?

I bet the numbers are similar in hoops and football.

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Best I could find in a quick search

was this page, which gives the number of fumbles per game committed in 2009 by each of the 120 D1 teams. For my post above I was lazy and just went to the middle and figured that the average team fumbles 1.5 times per game.

http://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/fumbles-per-game

by csfuu on Sep 3, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is different from a fumble as well

because of the shape of the ball. You always know the ball will go fairly straight so you hustle and dive for it. The ability to know with near certainty where the ball will go lets whoever reacts increase their odds of getting the ball. The shape of the ball also makes it easier to secure, especially when you factor in the lower level of contact. Now if a legit scrum breaks out for the ball then all bets are off since you don’t know how the ball will be redirected.

by osceolafan2.0 on Sep 3, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Someone should talk to JT

I think twice last year (2nd half of the year) he fumbled the ball and had it pop right back into his hands – almost like he was dribbling a basketball.

Losing the ball = not good
Having it pop perfectly back into your hands = very good

JT has pigskin dribbling skills…

by GraniteStateNoles on Sep 3, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can see that fumble recovery is random - but what about fumble inducing?

It seems like some teams are coached to strip the ball or put their helmet on the ball in the RBs arm or to just wrestle it away. In my opinion that doesn’ t seem random. Now – once the ball pops out – who recovers it – sure I see that as fairly random. But are there some defenses that year over year cause more fumbles (not necessarily turnovers)?

If not, then all the more reason I guess to spend heavy practice time on punt blocking which does appear to be a coachable skill and is effectively the same as causing a fumble (which because punts are on 4th down normally) is equivalent to a turn over no matter who comes up with it.

by GraniteStateNoles on Sep 3, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Teams that HIT, force fumbles

They cause people to be nervous, they knock the ball loose, whatever.

Absolutely, good players cause fumbles!

by Sobering on Sep 3, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

not random

talent/strength help. if you’re good at ripping the ball then, as long as opportunities present themselves, you’re going to have a higher rate of forced fumbles

by B-rod24 on Sep 3, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent writing. I could not be more pumped about the upcoming season.

I mean it, this is excellence – Putting qualitative and quantitative issues together, a product that sums up a lot of statistical analysis behind it in words that you could explain to your grandma. Inspiring and well balanced conclusions.

I am thrilled that TN came up with what it thought would be a success or failure given certain circumstances. I like testing what I think against its product. Please keep doing this.

Grace I call Your name, Oh won’t Your smile fall over me, I’m cracked and dry on hands and knees, Oh sweet grace rain down on me I need You grace
-Phil Wickham

by FSUvaFan on Sep 3, 2010 12:37 PM EDT reply actions  

I still think the most interesting win percentage question is this:

How would a win against Oklahoma affect everyone’s projected win percentages?

After all, hitting .313 gets you in the hall of fame. There will be many teams who are 69 percent to win who will lose. If Oklahoma happens to be one of them and it happens to be to us (see: fumble luck, etc.) then it seems to me it would be worth MORE than just 1 win in the projected win total for the season.

That is, if FSU were to defeat Oklahoma in Norman, wouldn’t that affect one’s assigned percentage to the UF game? As well as other games?

Don’t want to get hung up on this, but the truth is, there is tremendous fluidity with this particular team, this particular season.

The set of facts in front of us:
—historically inept defense nonetheless manned by underachieving talent
—entirely new defensive staff
—coach in waiting post mortem
—high-achieving offense with virtually everyone returning
—micromanaged program succeeding a macro-UNmanaged program

…. in my 30 years of loving college football, I can’t come up with anything close to an analog nationwide, much less at FSU.

While I agree with your range of 7-9 wins, the truth is, I wouldn’t be shocked with 5 or 11. In fact, I think this is the most difficult season to forecast since … well .. 1976.

by Fsued on Sep 3, 2010 12:42 PM EDT reply actions  

It would depend on if FSU beats OU because of LUCK or

Because FSU was the better team. If OU fumbles away the game and FSU gets lucky then no, my precentages stay the same. If FSU goes out and we find out Jimbo is a miracle worker then yes I’ll bump everything up. A lot.

by FSUKook on Sep 3, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually I can think of a game off the top of my head

where a team with 69% to win odds lost last year.

Drum roll…… UF vs. Bama

I agree with you about a win at OU, and I’d love it if someone came up with a model that adjusted for wins/losses as the season progresses.

by BenDNole on Sep 3, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

37th in defense

and a trip to the ACC championship game. I’ll take it.

"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time." - Vince Lombardi

by 1newplayer on Sep 3, 2010 12:42 PM EDT reply actions  

A parallel to consider

Bama went 6-6 (2-6 in conference play) in the 2006 regular season, just before hiring Nick Saban.

That next year, Bama went 7-6 (4-4). One game overall improvement, but two game improvement in conference play. More importantly, though, Bama’s 6 losses in 2007 were all by 7 points or less (average margin = 6 points). There was evidence, even in Saban’s first year, that the process was in place for continuing improvement.

I bring this up to say that I am interested, also, in the process improvements FSU makes this year. And while a 7-6 record would stink to repeat, I’d be ok with quality losses of 7 points or less to: UF, BC, OU, Miami, Clemson, and NC State.

FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st down.

by ricobert1 on Sep 3, 2010 12:43 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree with everything except OU...

I think everyone has them way overrated this year. I sure pray that’s the case…lol

Football is played with an oblong ball. Take your roundball and GTFO...

by NaGaNole on Sep 3, 2010 12:44 PM EDT reply actions  

its tough to say

It’s extremely difficult to project player regressions especially when nobody here is able to scout practices. They have a lot of injuries, a lot of youth, but they have two skill position guys who are leaps and bounds more talented than anyone we currently have at the position (murray and Broyles who might be the best wr in the nation [ 89cth-1120yd- 15td; 11-83-1 rushing with the frosh qb throwing to him]). I think we can win based on team speed (i know, i know). We can contain Murray who is more of a reggie bush type of guy rather than a between the tackles type (he can run up the middle at 6’1 207ish) but he’s more dangerous on tosses, screens, and off tackle type of plays.

Broyles is a great wr but he’s not one of those physically dominating guys at only 5’11. If he was 6’4 i’d be more worried. Reid, Rhodes, and joyner should be able to stay with him.

by B-rod24 on Sep 3, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great analysis

The gambler has analyzed it perfectly and therefore the bet is whether you think FSU will be better or worse than the analysis.

The analysis in my opinion is based on the Defense and is right on.

The great question is can the offense be dominant to the point, where they can overcome defensive misses not only against the weak teams, but against the strong teams.

The one thing in analyzing the team that is hard to measure is the play of Special Teams, IMO, this could be a difference maker. We return a good punter and kicker, who from what I have been reading have really improved. Close games are often won and lost on the Punting and Kicking. We have a good return team from last year, Coach Gran will only improve that component.

Therefore, I would bet we beat the odds and win more than 8.

by rspknole1 on Sep 3, 2010 12:45 PM EDT reply actions  

surely this article was written to mock FSU

The talent is there, FSU can be top 25 defense.
Top 3 offense

Top 3 special teams

FSU schedule is tough, and last year i would have predicted 6 losses, but now, I can’t see any losses…

UNDEFEATED go noles

by Mr. Seminole on Sep 3, 2010 12:59 PM EDT reply actions  

junk time

we put in the “all freshman team” and they squeeze two field goals in.

by Neon Deion on Sep 3, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I almost want to rec this.

Hilarious.

"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes

"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher

by Drew J Jones on Sep 3, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jenije to start at safety

per IraSchaffel on Twitter

FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st down.

by ricobert1 on Sep 3, 2010 1:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Not good news, imo

Not as a Jenije slam, but it means none of other safeties (you know, the ones who actually have trained to play the position) could hack it. I’d say that decreases the chances we get to a rating of “average” with our safeties, Jenije’s improvement notwithstanding.

by Fsued on Sep 3, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

They are being cyuatious with Moody and rewarding Chuko for switching to safety

We’ll have Moody for a game he can make a difference imo (Miami)

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Sep 3, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rewarding for switching?

Kind of like we rewarded Craig Yarbrough for being a senior?

I’d just as soon our best players be on the field Saturday to get prepared to play the games that matter.

by Fsued on Sep 3, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow

That really sounded more confrontational than I wanted it to!

by Fsued on Sep 3, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

But, I'm at home sick

Day 5 with bronchitis, so I know you’ll cut me some slack.

by Fsued on Sep 3, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shoot Fsued. Hope you're ok!

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Sep 3, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great week to miss work ...

… because, you know, you want the last 5 days before football season starts to go as slowly as possible ….

by Fsued on Sep 3, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well they could throw Moody out there but he's not 100%

And Jenije is the #2.

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Sep 3, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stop it

"We had a little come-to-Jesus meeting. And it was fire and brimstone." Jimbo Fisher on his halftime adjustments.

by Yarborough4Heisman on Sep 3, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not good news...

…but we don’t know if it’s only for the Samford game.

"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes

"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher

by Drew J Jones on Sep 3, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm interested to see who gets the majority of reps when Jenije isn't out there

"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary." Vince Lombardi
"We'll win games with talent, we'll win championships with character." Jimbo Fisher

by RishiM on Sep 3, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow

Great work. Excellent summation of an entire off season of speculation and debate. And what an off season it was. My fellow TN readers, please send this article to friends and family if they get down on the ’Noles for losing a tough game in Norman. It is NOT the time to give up on this team.

All of the long time fans should think of it this way: You were around to see this program become something special. It was a process. It took time for Florida State to become Florida State. Think about how great it will be to see it done again. It will be something I will share with future generations. “I was there to see FSU pick up the pieces and set things RIGHT!” And it starts tomorrow at high noon.

I can’t express how excited I am that this program has finally chosen the right steps to be worthy of national media praise and adoration of local fans alike. I am jazzed and to steal a line from one of the best “It’s a new dawn, it’s a new day…and I’m feeling good.”

Nation, meet FSU, FSU, meet nation….again. GO ’NOLES!

Not an alcoholic, just an FSU grad.

by onebarrelrum on Sep 3, 2010 1:19 PM EDT reply actions  

"Just playing fundamental football and having a plan on each snap will make a big difference..."

what is this “plan on defense” idea you are blathering about? In Art of War, SunCity says “No plan on defense neeed when you have fastest defense ever.”

First prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired.

by GoNolzOhio on Sep 3, 2010 1:50 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't think retreating counts as "defense"

Maybe that was our mistake last season, using that defensive speed in the wrong way.

by Invictus13 on Sep 3, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

interesting...so on defense, "direction of play" matters? That must tie in with that whole

“line of scrimmage” concept.

First prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired.

by GoNolzOhio on Sep 3, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

This SunCity guy you speak of would be a revolutionary coach

“Therefore the superior militarist strikes while schemes are being laid.”

Sounds like the D should strike while the opponents are in the huddle.

by Invictus13 on Sep 3, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have to quibble with your Miami number.

Because you clearly did not factor in +7.5% for it being a rivalry game where anything goes and the teams play each other tough, and another (give or take) 10% for FSU SWAGGER-YA-HEARD. Ergo, using simple arithmetic and completely ignoring the time-honored rules of statistics people at this site use for predictions….we’re on top over Miami.

“Not so fast, my friends!”

But seriously, I’ll take 45%. To me, that is a tough but fair number, and it will be a statement game besides. I expect at a certain point the predictive numbers might get thrown out the window the day of. I’ll let you know how it goes since I’ll be sitting in row 25 in the lower level, behind visitors bench, near the 10-15 yard line, and will be able to see swagger from my house!

by AmplifiedJ on Sep 3, 2010 2:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Really Bud....

you’re going to make predictions on fumble luck? Lets be real. Its not luck. You may say that it is random underneath the pile which I believe is fair. But if you don’t fumble you won’t have to worry about who gets the ball under the pile. Holding onto the ball is a skill, see Mike Hart of Michigan. And recovering other teams fumbles can be beneficial or even game changing but i don’t think that the opposing defense was complaining about fumble luck last year when Jermaine Thomas fumbled and the ball popped right back up into his arms, and you cant loose something you didnt have. Thats why we have a defense. If a team recovers its own fumble, force them to punt. Our offense is prolific enough to make up the 40 yard difference. I loved the write up and think that it was really good except for the fumble luck stuff. Lets just make a prediction and stick with it, and get rid of the phony caveats… Its like my dad said. If my aunt had nuts she’d be my uncle..

by camfsu04e on Sep 3, 2010 3:23 PM EDT reply actions  

What are you talking about?

He’s saying that over the course of the season, if we have good luck in terms of fumbles gained/lost differential, as well as other factors, then our record will be improved. With which part of this do you take issue?

>>---l>

by DKfromVA on Sep 3, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Try using google

I don’t have time for this. It’s been proven not to be a skill. Nobody does it well year to year.

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Sep 3, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

sorry bud

I know that you’re too busy to entertain people’s comments who disagree with you. haha. Holding onto the ball is a skill. Get real. Other than that I think you are usually spot on.

by camfsu04e on Sep 3, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

You don't get it. You're arguing against something I never said.

Seriously. Use google.

This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
Follow Tomahawk Nation's Twitter feed!

by Bud Elliott on Sep 3, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was going to congratulate you for being efficient with your time on the post right above this one

and then you posted again. tsk tsk tsk.

Look at what the analysis provided last year did for the readership. What do you think this season is going to do.

Ive got my popcorn ready.

Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole

by Miaminole on Sep 3, 2010 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

You need to realize he is not talking about Fumbling the ball

he is talking about how many fumbles a team as a whole recovers vs. does not recover (no matter who is fumbling us or them) throughout the course of a season.

NOT limiting fumbles themselves.

"…You can't get enough Lonnie Pryors on your football team." -Eddie Gran

by harper.rb on Sep 3, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cue the circus music

FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st down.

by ricobert1 on Sep 3, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

No sense arguing on how much the defense can improve swiftly

We will know tomorrow. If it turns into another Jax State game we will know there are problems up ahead. I really don’t expect that however.

Don't miss the new best selling books by the Bowden clan

Just One Star Player And One Big Play Away Forever…By Bobby Bowden
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Purple Haze, Prozac, Geritol, Senility, Back Stabbing And Losing…By Ann Bowden

by DocHoliday2 on Sep 3, 2010 4:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Regression to the mean

Regression to the mean is a concept that more people should be aware of.

by csfuu on Sep 3, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Green this up

FSU Defense 2010: Taking back 1st down.

by ricobert1 on Sep 3, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

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