Florida State's Defense On Third-&-Long
A lot of Seminole fans have been freaking out about the defense on third/fourth & long downs. Let's clear some things up:
1. FSU's defense on third/fourth & long was not an issue against Duke before garbage time.
2. This has been an issue in other games.
| 3rd/4th & Long before 34-3 score | |
| 3-10 Duke 20 Renfree, S pass complete to Vernon, C for 11 yards to the DUKE31, 1ST DOWN DUKE P1 (PARKS,T.). | Quick strike over the middle, good route, miscommunication between Rhodes and Parks I think. |
| 3-9 Duke 32 Renfree, S pass intercepted by DAWKINS,E. at the DUKE25, DAWKINS,E. return 0 yards to the DUKE25 (Renfree, S). | Excellent pass rush by the defensive line, Werner bats the ball and Dawkins with good awareness intercepts. Terrible broken ankle here for McDaniel. |
| 3-6 FSU 22 Renfree, S pass complete to Helfet, C for 2 yards to the FSU20 (PARKS,T.). | FSU blitzes, forces quick throw, and Parks is actually there to make the stop. |
| 3-12 Duke 30 Renfree, S pass incomplete to Varner, D. | ^$^*# Jenkins is badly held, no flag. FSU forces the short throw and the coverage is excellent. |
| 3-17 Duke 38 Renfree, S sacked for loss of 6 yards to the DUKE32 (WERNER,B.). | Nice pass rush from Werner and hey, Demonte McAllister gets pass pressure. Timmy Jernigan is badly held! |
| 3-19 Duke 35 Renfree, S pass complete to Vernon, C for 17 yards to the FSU48. | FSU makes Duke throw short of the sticks and this is a really tough throw on the skinny post. Successful third down IMO. |
Let's first look at how defended third and fourth & long against Duke. This is defined as "5 or more yards to go."
When the outcome of the game was still remotely in doubt, FSU's defense dominated, stopping Duke on 5 of 6 attempts.
You can see the breakdown of these six plays, at left. These are pulled from the Florida State Film Review.
Below, you'll see that once FSU got up 34-3, they let up a bit on the focus and Duke made some very nice plays. That combination allowed Duke to convert a few.
But should you care that Duke converted some in the fourth quarter, down 34-3? I wouldn't.
Yet FSU's issues aren't necessarily solved. Inside, I examine the garbage-time downs against Duke, what happened in the other games, and what will change going forward.
| 3rd/4th & Long after 34-3 score | |
| 3-12 Duke 27 Renfree, S pass complete to Braxton, B for 15 yards to the DUKE42, 1ST DOWN DUKE P7 (RHODES,X.). | Lamarcus Joyner comes on the blitz and misses the QB. He got there clean. Well-designed blitz and Mike Harris does a great job occupying. But Joyner must make this sack. He was unimpeded. |
| 3-10 Duke 42 Renfree, S pass incomplete, QB hurry by DAWKINS,E.. | Another blitz by FSU. Not well executed as Harris and Telvin hit the same gap. Miscommunication by Duke causes pass to be overthrown wildly. |
| 3-21 Duke 45 Renfree, S pass complete to Thompson, J for 14 yards to the FSU41 (WILLIAMS,V.). | This I don't like. Why is Vince Williams on the field for third & 21? Perhaps Stoops wanted him to work on his coverage, because he definitely should not be out there in a non-garbage situation. Williams misses the tackle in space and gives up an extra 8 yards. Vince better not be on the field for 3rd and 5+ next week. In which case I do not care. |
| 4-7 FSU 41 Renfree, S pass complete to Holliday, B for 9 yards to the FSU32, 1ST DOWN DUKE. P8 | Greg Reid didn't play nearly as bad as some suggest, but I do put this one on him for not being alert. Too slack on the comeback against a slower player. |
| 3-17 FSU 39 Renfree, S rush for 5 yards to the FSU34, out-of-bounds (LUC,J.). | Jeff Luc and Telvin Smith looking good here, forcing QB to the sidelines. |
| 4-12 FSU 34 Renfree, S pass complete to Vernon, C for 13 yards to the FSU21, 1ST DOWN DUKE. P9 | FSU is clearly blitzing. Duke sees the blitz. FSU elects to blitz anyway. In a competitive situation, I'd like to see FSU check out of this. Some put this on Greg Reid, but Greg's body language suggests Jeff Luc did not get deep enough in his drop for a 4th-12 situation. I am convinced Stoops was repping some stuff here with the younger guys, because he didn't call the defense like this when FSU was stopping Duke on 5 of 6 third and longs. |
| 3-7 FSU 18 Renfree, S pass complete to Vernon, C for 17 yards to the FSU1, 1ST DOWN DUKE (REID,G.). P10 | This is not a bad play by Greg Reid at all. In this play, Reid is required to play tight man coverage and not allow the receiver an inside release. He does his job. The weakness in this coverage? A perfectly thrown back-shoulder fade. Which is exactly what Duke's QB threw. And it still took a circus catch by the All-ACC receiver to make it work. I hope Greg got a "+" for this coverage because there is nothing wrong with the job he did here. Every defense has a weakness, and if the opponent can identify it and then make the difficult throw, you have to tip your cap. This is a good QB and FSU shut him down for most of the day. He'll have a few of these. |
| 3-6 FSU 24 Renfree, S pass incomplete to Braxton, B, QB hurry by JENKINS,B.. | Why is Vince Williams on the field for third & 6? Duke misfires. |
| 4-6 FSU 24 Renfree, S pass complete to Vernon, C for 19 yards to the FSU5, 1ST DOWN DUKE (MOODY,N.). P12 | FSU brings a big blitz, it does not get home, and QB has time to find the All-AC receiver. Mismatch on Moody. Also, I think Rhodes was supposed to be dropping to a sideline hook zone and he didn't. Lack of focus with the big lead. |
But this was an issue against Clemson and Wake Forest. FSU's defense has been 8th on standard downs, but just 38th on passing downs.
Why? I have my theories on this.
First, there is a perception problem. FSU's defense is so vastly improved that it is forcing more long down situations. In previous years, the defense would face third and short, or simply give up a first down on first or second down.
Second, even though the defense is forcing more of these situations, we are still dealing with a rather limited sample set of perhaps 50 plays, if that. Even fewer in non-garbage time. In such a limited sample set, things can be skewed by a great offensive play or two, random bad luck, or a horrible call.
Third, is just that, penalties. FSU has been the victim of some atrociously bad calls on third down and long situations this year. You'd like to think it will even out, but even if it doesn't, that's not something FSU can control.
Fourth, overconfidence in the linebackers. FSU's linebackers played a great game against Oklahoma. Much better than anyone expected. You have to wonder if Mark Stoops wasn't overconfident in the surprising coverage skills of his linebackers. Not that this was unjustified, because Stoops had every reason to be confident. To him, it made more sense to stay in the base defense that had worked so well against Oklahoma, rather than trying to run some new nickel package without Greg Reid.
Unfortunately, it didn't work. They were exposed against Clemson and to some extent, Wake Forest. But they also had to play a bit, because FSU was without at least one of its top three cornerbacks for a decent part of those games, making nickel and dime formations difficult to play.
Fifth, the injuries mentioned above. None of FSU's corners have been healthy for the first six games. The injuries haven't been major, but they have definitely impacted FSU's defense.
How often did FSU play nickel/dime defense (5 or 6 defensive backs) on 3rd/4th-&-long:
9% of the time against Clemson (no Greg Reid b/c of leg injury)
3 7 Three-Four
3 9 Four-Three
3 5 Three-Four
3 29 Four-Three
3 5 Four-Three
3 10 Three-Four
3 5 Three-Four
3 10 Three-Three
3 14 Four-Three
3 10 Four-Three
3 6 Four-Three
33% of the time against Wake (no Mike Harris for much of the game due to injury)
3 13 Three-Four
3 5 Three-Three
3 5 Three-Four
3 12 Four-Three
3 5 Four-Two
3 19 Four-Three
3 25 Four-Three
3 10 Three-Four
3 11 Four-Three
3 8 Three-Four
3 8 Four-Two
3 6 Four-Two
100% of the time against Duke
3 10 Three-Three
3 9 Four-Two
3 6 Four-Two
3 12 Four-Two
3 17 Four-Two
3 19 Four-Two
Source: The best play-by-play stat sheet on the net.
Duke was the first game since Oklahoma that FSU had all three corners stay on the field for most of the game.
With the corners apparently healthy, and the emergence of extra defensive back Terrence Brooks (the one positive to come from the injuries to the corners has been then Stoops can now trust Brooks more), expect to see more nickel/dime on passing downs from this defense, and far fewer instances in which Nigel Bradham and Vince Williams are on the field together.
Here's DRN's thoughts:
Even though Rhodes got banged up again, he just looks healthier and more like himself. Saw signs of his old burst/closing speed against Wake and again last week. If Harris isn’t completely healthy…God help opponents when he is. Very pleased with Brooks’ play overall. Thought he looked good in spot play previous two weeks and played a lot against Duke, looks like a freshman at times…but lots of upside.
With an elite defensive front, FSU doesn't need to blitz all that much. Playing coverage with players suited to cover behind a great pass-rushing front will take this defense from very good to elite.
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FSU played nickel/dime defense (5 or 6 defensive backs):
7% of the time against Clemson
20% of the time against Wake Forest
90% of the time against Duke
Is this for third and long or for all downs? Either way is a massive contrast between games.
All downs
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by Bud Elliott on Oct 20, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I am glad you asked me that. I will go through and do it for third/4th & longs in non-garbage time
Clemson 9% (no Greg Reid)
3 7 Three-Four
3 9 Four-Three
3 5 Three-Four
3 29 Four-Three
3 5 Four-Three
3 10 Three-Four
3 5 Three-Four
3 10 Three-Three
3 14 Four-Three
3 10 Four-Three
3 6 Four-Three
Wake 33% (no Mike Harris for much of the game)
3 13 Three-Four
3 5 Three-Three
3 5 Three-Four
3 12 Four-Three
3 5 Four-Two
3 19 Four-Three
3 25 Four-Three
3 10 Three-Four
3 11 Four-Three
3 8 Three-Four
3 8 Four-Two
3 6 Four-Two
Duke (100% of the time)
3 10 Three-Three
3 9 Four-Two
3 6 Four-Two
3 12 Four-Two
3 17 Four-Two
3 19 Four-Two
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by Bud Elliott on Oct 20, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Shows what injuries do.
Reid, Harris, and Brooks all banged up, and if I’m not mistaken someone said Rhodes might have been battling an injury as well.
"Nothing like a tight one." -Heather Cox
what about for OU was it closer to duke i would imagine?
Is amazing how the loss of one or two guys can really affect how a team plays offence or defence – i guess is why i like football so much, its the total team sport.
We played a lot of non-nickel against OU. The backers were shockingly good, which goes with #3- overconfidence in the backers.
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by Bud Elliott on Oct 20, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Great Breakdown
Nice to see all the info. I’d be happy to see us go more nickel/dime like you said, especially with how Brooks has looked in limited action
by cincy_nole on Oct 20, 2011 12:01 PM EDT via iPhone app reply actions
even with all the issues Wake's 3rd down #s weren't outstanding against us
Shot a Gator in Jean Shorts just to watch him die.
by AMFKNole on Oct 20, 2011 12:02 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
The saying goes 'Perception is reality'
in the minds of most fans. Which is why we’re here on TN to get some educational insight. Everyone does a GREAT job of really adding value to knowing what is going on and why. That said, we will get better as the season progresses (if we stay healthy) and will really be good next season. You have to laugh at those calling for Stoop’s head.
What did we do before Al Gore invented the internet!?!?
Thanks Blaze. Glad you enjoyed.
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by Bud Elliott on Oct 20, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Awesome.
But….
7% of the time against Clemson
This just pisses me off, so, so much.
Have I mentioned that I hate Clemson today?
Refresh. I changed them to “against third-&-long”
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by Bud Elliott on Oct 20, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
But then the question becomes
Why can’t we find a suitable nickel for those situations? Terrance Brooks, Avis Commack (although I never believed any of the hype he got in spring anyway, which has become evident at this point that he is not/won’t be a playmaker here) Nick Waisome, anyone? Hell, why not Telvin? Vince Williams is NOT who we want in on 3rd and long, even Bradham is bad enough in pass D. What gives?
I think the coaching staff was too conservative on this and went with seniors instead of the young bucks.
Can’t prove it one way or another but I would have preferred the approach of favoring the personnel groupings OVER experience of personnel in the system.
But the seniors played great against OU in coverage. They had every reason to believe they could do it again.
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by Bud Elliott on Oct 20, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
You have to wonder if Mark Stoops wasn’t overconfident in the surprising coverage skills of his linebackers. Not that this was unjustified, because Stoops had every reason to be confident. To him, it made more sense to stay in the base defense that had worked so well against Oklahoma, rather than trying to run some new nickel package without Greg Reid.
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by Bud Elliott on Oct 20, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
OK...
9% of the time against Clemson
Might piss me off even more!!!
That an out-of-state program can benefit SO MUCH from our failures, bad luck, and legacies is absolutely confounding…
You have to wonder if Mark Stoops wasn’t overconfident in the surprising coverage skills of his linebackers. Not that this was unjustified, because Stoops had every reason to be confident. To him, it made more sense to stay in the base defense that had worked so well against Oklahoma, rather than trying to run some new nickel package without Greg Reid.
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by Bud Elliott on Oct 20, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure.
How similar are the OU and Clemson schemes in terms of the personnel/threats they throw at you? If its close, yeah, go with the OU plan… if not, then I’m not sure.
Also, did OU specifically try to exploit the LBs? I know they don’t have a talent like Allen at TE, so that is one major difference that got us killed vs. Clemson.
But the alternative wasn’t the regular nickel, it was Nickel with no Greg Reid. Your best Nickel guy is Harris. He doesn’t play the slot if Reid isn’t there.
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by Bud Elliott on Oct 20, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, might even need to look at Clemson's success in 1st half, 2nd half...
to see if Stoops was stubborn and not changing things up when they were killing us.
Again, penalties were a mitigating factor that might have led him to believe “we’re doing it right, if we just don’t get a flag — have to stick with it.”
But they had a lot of success early so I am skeptical.
You’re onto something there with the penalties. We got screwed on two of those, and on another (Erving facemask), it had nothing to do with Nickel DIme Quarter penny whatever
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by Bud Elliott on Oct 20, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Tip Your Cap Plays
Sometimes the opposing offense just makes great plays despite excellent coverage. Maybe it is exaggerated in my mind but it seems that we have had a lot of those. We have a knack of bringing out the best in opposing QBs and receivers.
OR…
Perception. FSU doesn’t give up the easy play.
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by Bud Elliott on Oct 20, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
And also consider that
T. Parks should have about 3 INT’s by now, Bradham and Vince should have a few. These are plays you expect your experienced players to make but they just haven’t.
The good news is that we will be replacing those guys with players who will not miss those opportunities (which IMO are momentum changers).
by FSUActuary on Oct 20, 2011 12:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Good point
Those turnovers would have made a difference in the games. Maybe not the outcome, but they would have mattered.
Not tho' the soldier knew, Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply, Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do & die, Into the valley of Death Rode the 85.
by Shooter McFrattin on Oct 20, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
We've had phenomenally bad bounces/tips go against us all year
Just one of those years. It’s not the reason we’re 3-3, but it certainly doesn’t help matters
Missing Opp
You can’t really know at this point whether they will take advantage of those opportunities. How do you know Luc, Brooks Los etc will more often than not convert the turnover? Didn’t we say the same about Bradham?
by MarchantWarchant on Oct 20, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm moreso basing this off the "robotic" nature that guys like Parks and Bradham have displayed in this new defense.
Much easier to teach a new guy that’s a natural fit for the scheme, then to unteach a vet an old style and then re-teach him a new one half way through his playing career. And then to expect said guy to look natural and make those plays.
If Parks is just looking to not make a mistake and get yelled at, it can explain those plays where he had a chance to make a difference and did not.
by FSUActuary on Oct 20, 2011 1:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I just hope
We see more Telvin or hell even more Brooks as an extra DB instead of Vince on passing downs. He just doesnt have pass coverage skills that some of the other backers have, especially 3rd and longs.
I get what Bud is saying with Stoops’ possible over confidence in the backers; but damn were now 3 games removed from OU. I just hope the DL continues to play as well as they did in the Duke game (and get more holding calls……lol) and help out the guys in coverage with pressure.
I wonder if
Stoops played nickel a lot because Duke is primarily a passing offense or if this will be the strategy going forward. It’s something I’ll look out for.
Awesome write up
First, there is a perception problem. FSU’s defense is so vastly improved that it is forcing more long down situations. In previous years, the defense would face third and short, or simply give up a first down on first or second down.
I never thought about this, but found myself nodding my head when I read it. Great point.
Damn shame our LB’s played so well against OU and couldn’t duplicate the performance when it mattered in conference play. Do you think even with one of our corners banged up that Waisome or Brooks would have been a better option than Vince or Nigel in pass pro?
Not tho' the soldier knew, Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply, Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do & die, Into the valley of Death Rode the 85.
by Shooter McFrattin on Oct 20, 2011 1:00 PM EDT reply actions
Stoops Over-confidence in the Linebackers...
was a great point… Our linebackers are very talented but him electing to go from being aggressive against Oklahoma to more of a conservative (drop back in pass pro) style against Clemson and Wake was very costly for this team. Most linebackers are more effective when they are playing down-hill, attacking the line of scrimmage and the ball and only a few special ones are great in pass protection, as far as being consistenly dependable in coverage situations… Stoops mixed up aggressive play-calling with conservative, against Oklahoma, and as a result, our linebackers played probably one of the best collective games together, we’ve seen in a long time.
But then he changed to a more conservative approach against Clemson and Wake, in which our linebackers were always on their heels, dropping into pass protection… Coupled with the fact that our secondary wasn’t healthy, proved to be too much for our “D” to overcome… Linebackers didn’t look aggressive, and at times, even apart of the games. Even Telvin Smith didn’t look good in coverage, during those games. Even without a run game, I believe we would’ve still been a 1-loss team if Stoops didn’t get cocky and change-up the defensive style against Clemson and Wake…
Those are different offenses, mostly because of the QB run.
FSU doesn’t need to be blitzing more.
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Our Linebackers are very talented?
No expert here but aside from Jones our LB play has been average at best. Hoping to see more of Luc soon
#58 should be retired in honor of the most destructive force to ever wear garnet and gold
by Wire2Wire99Grad on Oct 20, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Stoops
stoops can even see that our linebackers are getting murdered i still dont understand why on third and longs tell los or brooks the coverage and run them in for one play.. Parks is never n position which everybody can see and opposing OC can exploit us over and over again.
I do not want Karlos Williams near the field on passing downs.
Unless he’s playing DE.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman.
He
Knowing is half the battle, the other half is violence.
by onebarrelrum on Oct 20, 2011 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Los could be close to the field if Jimbo isn't just coach-speaking
On 3rd and long you want guys with ball skills in at LB obviously. You can argue that none of ours have them. Telvin, C jones are best cover guys why not have a package for both on the field together? C Jones was in at LB alone Vs Duke once at least. I’m guessing in a dime look.
by FireRicobert on Oct 20, 2011 7:18 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I'm not sure what is considered garbage time
but our 1’s were in toward the end of the Duke game, and coming off losing 3 in a row, I would expect that group to want to and be coached to finish games. They did not finish the game well, period. I’m not sure at what point garbage time started in the Duke game, but if the 1’s are in, I ain’t buying it.
I don’t care if it is to be “expected” or “understandable” that the D takes a break when up by a few points; it is, in my opinion, unacceptable for FSU’s defense coming off 2 games where they gave up 35 points to ever “take it easy” If the 2nd unit is in, fine, I understand that, but that was not the case. It was a poor way to end the game for a team underachieving overall, regardless of what the overall 3rd/4th and long stats are. Finish.

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