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Around SBN: FSU To Big 12 'Inevitable,' According To Report

Simple Rule Change Could Help ACC Scheduling

Very few teams are happy with the ACC Football Schedule this season.  It doesn't make much sense.  The match-ups are ill-timed and don't showcase the product in the best possible light, particularly on national television.

Recently, ACC Associate Commissioner Michael Kelly went on The Jeff Cameron Show to discuss the scheduling.  Give that a listen.  

One thing caught my ear.  Kelly talked about the freedom the ACC gives its teams in the non-conference, and the trouble it causes in scheduling.  ACC teams can pretty much schedule non-conference games whenever they choose.  That sounds good, but in reality it is a nightmare when trying to put together a schedule, as Kelly explained.  That needs to stop.  Yes, it will make things a bit tougher to schedule non-conference games, but the payoff is well worth it.  Here is the rule:

  • No non-conference games may be scheduled from October 1st to November 15th.   
  • A team may not be scheduled to play a conference game and another game in a seven day period.

Update:  Someone suggested a team be able to schedule a game in the "conference period" twice every four years.  This would be less restrictive on their freedom to schedule and would permit the scheduling of a home-and-home series in the four-year period.  That's something I will have to consider.

Why?

Establish A Defined Conference Season

Aside from great teams, what makes the SEC so great?  Predictability and tradition.  Georgia will play South Carolina very early in the season.  Alabama will play Tennessee the third Saturday in October.  Florida will play Tennessee the third Saturday in September.  Arkansas will play LSU right around Thanksgiving.  That's just a few.  There are many more.

The "Brady Bunch" arrangement that is the expanded ACC desperately needs consistency in its rivalries, particularly the games that are in-division.  My rule would provide that.

Sure, go ahead and have some fun with the two opposite-division games that rotate on a yearly basis.  But leave the the big in-division match-ups and the constant game with the other division as close to static as possible.  

Shouldn't FSU play Clemson in early November?  Shouldn't the ACC build to that match-up to decide the Atlantic Division?  

Shouldn't Virginia Tech play North Carolina late in the year in a cold-weather match-up to potentially decide the Coastal Division?

Shouldn't Miami and FSU square off in the traditional early-October contest when the sun is still shining throughout the state?  

Shouldn't Virginia and Virginia Tech square off on the same day NC State and UNC square off to decide state supremacy?  

Of course they should.  And my rule would allow it, I think.  By leaving the October 1st to November 15th window open, the ACC will have a clearly defined conference season in which every ACC team will play between five and seven conference games.  The only football during this time period will be ACC football.

Set Teams Up For Non-Conference Match-ups

The second benefit my rule affords the ACC is to set up the most favorable situations for the big non-conference battles.  The ACC is judged on BCS games, and three games at the end of the season:

FSU v. UF, Clemson v. South Carolina, and Georgia Tech v. Georgia.

The ACC can't control its BCS match-up, but it can and should encourage its three v. SEC representatives to schedule a cupcake or a bye before those games.  

Compare the teams the three ACC reps played before the SEC games, to those played by the SEC teams:

2010: FSU @ Maryland, Duke @ GT, Clem @ WakeTroy @ SCar, UGA Bye, App State @ UF.  

Perhaps the ACC thought Maryland would be awful, but the cold conditions in College Park are much easier to predict than the quality of the team.  Why make FSU travel 1000mi+ before representing the conference against Florida? 

2009: Maryland @ FSU, UVA @ Clemson, Georgia Tech bye  |  Kentucky @ UGA, FIU @ UF, South Carolina Bye

2008: FSU @ Maryland, Miami @ GT (Thursday), Clemson @ UVA  |  Citadel @ UF, Georgia BYE, South Carolina BYE

2007:  Maryland @ FSU, UNC @ GT, BC @ Clemson  |  FIU @ UF, UK @ UGA, SoCar BYE

In all, ACC teams played a conference game 11 of the 12 times before they played the SEC team.   SEC teams played a conference game just 2 of 12 times before playing their ACC game.  The ACC teams had one bye. The SEC teams drew a bye 5 times.  The ACC played zero D1-AA teams before their SEC match-up.  The SEC team played a D1-AA team twice.

It is undeniable that the SEC has dominated the ACC in terms of scheduling before an ACC-SEC match-up.  Why can't the ACC get smart with this?  Three goals for scheduling the week before the big SEC games to end the year.  These aren't rules, just directives:

1.  Encourage the three ACC teams to schedule a D1-AA cupcake.  

2.  If that doesn't happen, give the team a bye if they have not already played on a Thursday night (and thus used the bye before the Thursday-night game, by rule).

3.  Never make them travel.  Under no circumstances should FSU, Clemson, or Georgia Tech ever travel before representing the ACC in the three most important non-conference games.  All effort should be made to funnel Duke and Wake Forest to these three teams.  No offense to Duke and Wake, but they are historically the worst teams in the ACC by a large margin.  Teams in the ACC share equally in conference and TV money.  Wake and Duke can do their football part by playing a sacrificial road game before the marquee teams play the SEC games.  In that way, they are helping the ACC improve its image in football, and will receive more money in the next, bigger, TV contract.  To those who say this would hurt Wake and Duke in football, I disagree.  Teams like Wake and Duke occasionally have talented starters, but they have never had talented depth.  Playing a dominant team in the middle of the season could leave them worn out for several remaining games.  Playing in the second-to-last game of the year would leave the starters worn out for only a single game.  In that way, both the dominant team and Wake/Duke win.

This year, the ACC gave the 'Noles Virginia at home.  That's fine.  They gave Clemson a road game at NC State.  That is not ok.  And they gave Georgia Tech Duke, but it is at Duke, which really shouldn't be the case but is sometimes unavoidable.

No Short Rest

Part three of the rule should be known as the "No Short Rest" provision.  No team may play two games within seven days.  

Playing Thursday games after Saturday games, or Saturday games after Monday games, is a poor idea for many reasons.

It is simply bad football.  Teams do not have time to physically recover.  They do not have time to recover mentally.  They struggle to mentally "get up" for another game in such a short time period.  The coaches lack time to prepare the team for the game.  Sloppy football results, and the chance for an injury is higher because players are taxing their bodies that are not yet healed.

This is a terrible product to put on national TV representing the ACC.  People do not want to watch sloppy, undisciplined football.  Virginia Tech lost to James Madison in this very scenario last year.  FSU has lost games in this scenario to far inferior teams as well.  Why increase the chance that your product will be poor on national TV?  

The Violators

Which teams are in violation of this rule in 2011?

Star-divide

Violators of Rule #1:  "No non-conference games may be scheduled from October 1st to November 15th."

Here we have nine such offending games.  None of these would be considered marquee games for the conference.  

Sat 10/01:  Towson @ Maryland, UNC @ ECU, Bethune Cookman v. Miami, Idaho @ UVADuke @ FIU

Sat 10/08:  Central Michigan @ NC State, Louisville @ UNC

Sat 11/05:  Notre Dame @ Wake Forest

Sat 11/12:  Notre Dame @ Maryland

This must stop.  None of these games are rivalries such that they cannot be moved.  Heck, these games aren't even rivalries at all.  Yes, the Carolina legislature mandates that UNC play ECU, so I am told.  But it doesn't mandate that the game must be played in the middle of what should be a defined conference season.  This rule will not cause teams undue hardship.

 

Violations of Rule #2: "A team may not be scheduled to play a conference game and another game in a seven day period."

Here there are four violations.  Please note that I exclude the NC State @ Cincinnati violation here because that "two-game in seven days" scenario does not involve a conference game on either leg.

#1: Saturday NC State @ FSU, Thursday FSU @ Boston College.  

#2: Saturday Boston College @ Maryland, Thursday FSU @ Boston College

#3:  Saturday Georgia Tech @ Miami, Thursday Virginia @ Miami

#4:  Saturday NC State @ Virginia, Thursday:  Virginia @ Miami

Interesting that none of those games feature a team from the Carolinas.  Conspiracy theories aside, these two games featuring these four teams are likely to be sloppy contests between teams that are mentally and physically drained.  They also involve two of the longest road trips in the conference:  Virginia traveling to Miami, and Florida State traveling to Boston.

 

I firmly believe tightening up the non-conference scheduling with a common-sense approach to weekday games will improve the ACC product.  Thoughts?  Questions?  Concerns?  The opinions of all observers are welcome.

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This is great.

I hope somehow the ACC gets ahold of this article and that in the future we set our conference up to succeed rather than to fail.

by mn nole on Feb 15, 2011 10:55 AM EST reply actions  

Great article - I remain dumbfounded that the ACC just doesn't get it

This is common sense stuff when you’re trying to figure out how to best market your product on the field. Great point with the SEC parallels.

>>---l>

by DKfromVA on Feb 15, 2011 10:59 AM EST reply actions  

Considering the ACC is such a great academic conference

It seems like we would get smart about one of the biggest money-makers/publicity generators we have – football.

I agree that the conf should stabilize rivalries. Clem and FSU are the most likely annual Atlantic contenders – build to that “game for the division.” It won’t always work out, but it probably will more often than any other match-up.

Here’s something else – have the Labor Day game (if it must be kept) be one of the marquee out-of-division match-ups. That way, the loser can still control its own destiny (and isn’t punished for participating in an annoyingly scheduled game). This will still allow for a compelling match-up: FSU/UM, Clem/VT, even BC/UNC, etc. And don’t make one team do it too often… yes, that means WF, Duke, etc. will occasionally be in the game… do in years they expect to be better than normal.

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Bud's proposal is so simple, it's dumbfounding

The ACC must improve upon its gamesmanship – that is, the conference must be focused on branding itself as an elite conference. And the reason that the SEC is are the exact same reason the ACC is not.

Who or what are you glorifying with your life?

by ricobert1 on Feb 15, 2011 11:05 AM EST reply actions  

-5 points for is are is

Who or what are you glorifying with your life?

by ricobert1 on Feb 15, 2011 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

It shouldn’t be that dumbfounding that Swofford couldn’t give a crap about football

by Yakub2 on Feb 15, 2011 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not so sure it's that

I think it’s the old Federalism vs. States Rights issue. SEC is old power and rules with an iron fist (at times). ACC is newer, and seemingly grants autonomy in multiple areas to its member schools.

Who or what are you glorifying with your life?

by ricobert1 on Feb 15, 2011 11:17 AM EST up reply actions  

my poor grammar

basically, SEC smart – ACC not so

Who or what are you glorifying with your life?

by ricobert1 on Feb 15, 2011 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Unbelievable

Great point made here and fantastic evidence to back it up. The difference in ACC vs SEC scheduling blows my mind. The 4 days of rest between Maryland and BC is disconcerting – dangerous for our players (not to mention our season). Question is, what can WE do? What can Jimbo do? How to avoid being B-raped by this ridiculous scheduling?

by NolesTD on Feb 15, 2011 11:05 AM EST reply actions  

There's no way to avoid it completely unless they adopt The Elliott Plan.

But dropping the OU-type OOC games would help. If the ACC is going to make a schedule that puts us in position to lose 2 games then we have to schedule an auotmatic win somewhere else.

"A prediction, in a field where prediction is not possible, is no more than a prejudice."
- Malcolm Gladwell

"The reason you can't play defense is because you can't."
- Jerry West

by Jamil Dawson on Feb 15, 2011 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

they did it to Clemson too

Clemson does not have to schedule games vs Auburn. But if Clemson wins and they should, great prestige for ACC. Clemsons reward, FSU then at Virginia Tech next.

baffling.

FSU playing at Clemson after Oklahoma?

baffling

by Mr. Smith on Feb 15, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

It's all part of the "set 'em up, knock 'em down" philosophy.

“Hey, wouldn’t it be great if Clem beat Aub and FSU beat OU? Just in case that happens, let’s schedule them to play the next week. That’d be a great match-up!”

A) Both teams likely won’t win.
2) If they do, let’s have one lose immediately, thus lowering the conf’s rankings.

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

While we're at it

Let’s make an additional rule that no one can ’Bama us (whole conference chooses their bye week before playing FSU).

Who or what are you glorifying with your life?

by ricobert1 on Feb 15, 2011 11:06 AM EST reply actions  

rec'd one million times

Who or what are you glorifying with your life?

by ricobert1 on Feb 15, 2011 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

b-b-b-b-but

they beat Virginia Tech AND Oregon Staaaaaate, waaahhhhh!!!!!!

by NoleFrenzy on Feb 15, 2011 11:43 PM EST up reply actions  

For me this is the big one...

“A team may not be scheduled to play a conference game and another game in a seven day period.”

I don’t understand why the ACC or any conference does this. I personally love Thursday night games but either have it the way you just explained it or not have them at all, if that is even possible I’m not sure of the rule or contract from the ACC or TV deals that dictate that.

Another concern I have about this schedule is not having a home game for 36 days. For people like me that live in Atlanta I can’t make it back to back home games because of work, family, life if the powers to be could space this out better I would be able to spend more money on my team, hotels, etc….

by ganole10 on Feb 15, 2011 11:06 AM EST reply actions  

For a conference supposedly concerned with academics

We sure do screw the student athletes on the short week. Kids will miss 3 days of class that week (W-F). But we all know what Thursday night match-up$ are really about.

Who or what are you glorifying with your life?

by ricobert1 on Feb 15, 2011 11:08 AM EST reply actions  

kids will be back friday morning before class.

whether they actually make it is a different story. baseball team travels every tuesday and wednesday, granted they never travel out of state (only to gville, stetson, jacksonville, maybe tampa) but that’s still a lot of time on the bus every week.

by stevib on Feb 15, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

UNC/VT

“Shouldn’t Virginia Tech play North Carolina late in the year in a cold-weather match-up to decide the Coastal Division?”

Last six Coastal Division Champs: Virginia Tech, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Virginia Tech, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech.

Literally, none of the other four Coastal teams has ever played for the conference championships. So please explain why VT should play UNC late in the year to decide the division.

by gmlane on Feb 15, 2011 11:16 AM EST reply actions  

Because we look at things from a program standpoint

GT is 4th or 5th in the Coastal in terms of resources. When programs are operating at a maximum, GT isn’t winning a division over VT, UNC, or Miami. Obviously, you can’t look at things like this in a vacuum, but it’s the best predictor of long-term outcomes.

>>---l>

by DKfromVA on Feb 15, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

UNC hasnt won the conference since 1980

They are a richer version of Duke or Wake (who have both won it since then).

Conference homers are the lowest form of fandom. That is why the SEC has so many of them.

by gtne91 on Feb 15, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

But they have been a consistently better team.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Georgia Tech has finished higher than UNC in the ACC standings six straight years and eight of the last nine.

I am confused by this argument/perception.

by gmlane on Feb 15, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I mean higher than Duke/ Wake, because they were compared to Duke/Wake.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Access to talent, facilities, booster support & having shown a commitment to football in recent times = more resources

If they maximize these, they are definitely a top-tier Coastal Division team. This may change after the NCAA rips them, of course.

>>---l>

by DKfromVA on Feb 15, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I changed it to “potentially decide the division.”

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Good point.

Counterpoint – it is hard to make the case that GT will be better than UNC over the foreseeable future. Recruiting classes are consistently better at UNC. UNC has more resources and lower academic standards. UNC recently upgraded it’s coaching staff considerably.

I expect the ACC to be a battle between FSU/Clemson and UNC/VT for at least the next few years.

by sonofagunn on Feb 15, 2011 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

UNC has lower academic standards than GT?

Tell that to all the out-of-state valedictorians on the UNC admissions wait-list.

by FLAK8 on Feb 15, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes..

Not harder to get athletes admitted, but you can’t hide them.

So it’s a defacto admission standard, you can’t even bother recruiting/signing kids that aren’t going to be able to stay eligible.

by LouC on Feb 15, 2011 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Are we talking about football players or valedictorians here?

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick

by tricknole on Feb 16, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree in all, except

Playing BCCs of the world during the conference season. don’t mind it if its scheduled appropriately.

Now, till then….WTF do we do with USF and WVU next year.

"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett

by The Ryno and I Know on Feb 15, 2011 11:21 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

I think we will play USF.

The word going around is that the WVU game will not be played. It will likely be canceled.

by Lpfsu511 on Feb 15, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Who's word?

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick

by tricknole on Feb 16, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

No. WVU is part of a settlement.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 17, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

what do you mean by settlement?

like we agreed to something worse, and both parties agreed to WVU?

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 17, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

when the acc raided the BE

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 17, 2011 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

i found it

here’s the link

The settlement specifies home-and-home series between Florida State and West Virginia

what losers, 4 Big East schools sued the ACC for “consipiring with the ACC to weaken the Big East.” are they serious? seems to be, the better settlement would be for them to play only the former Big East schools. since thats what changed, right? thanks a lot Dick Blumenthal.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 18, 2011 8:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I would also propose conference realignment. Why not swap out VPI and FSU. It would be more in line with those regional rivalries.

by Yakub2 on Feb 15, 2011 11:23 AM EST reply actions  

The ACC would never go for this. It would destroy their dream of a Miami v FSU championship game rematch.

by noles07jd10 on Feb 15, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Which was poorly planned anyway

At the time, FSU and UM seemed to be the ACC’s most likely BCS teams. So, let’s guarantee one of them a loss the week that the BCS invites go out!

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Who would FSU’s other-division rival be?

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

So you put the 2 programs with the most potential in the same division?

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Actually, I like that. Clemson has more potential than Miami. Nevermind.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but keep in mind the short sighted goal of having an FSU/Miami matchup has been part of the problem. I just think the regional match-ups would prove to be better games

by Yakub2 on Feb 15, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree. I just think that the ACC will hold on to that short sighted goal at all costs, given their repeated attempts to have FSU/MIami square off on Labor Day.

by noles07jd10 on Feb 15, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed on this

pure North/South divisions would be better, if we could get the carolina schools to split up.

Conference homers are the lowest form of fandom. That is why the SEC has so many of them.

by gtne91 on Feb 15, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

They're already split up.

FSU, Miami, Clemson and GT in the same division?

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick

by tricknole on Feb 15, 2011 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure, why not, its not like Miami or CU will ever win the ACC anyway

Conference homers are the lowest form of fandom. That is why the SEC has so many of them.

by gtne91 on Feb 15, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe because it'd make the other division that much easier for VT...?

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick

by tricknole on Feb 16, 2011 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

GT wouldnt give up Clemson as cross-divisional rival

Conference homers are the lowest form of fandom. That is why the SEC has so many of them.

by gtne91 on Feb 15, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Then FSU could get Wake, haha.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

GT wouldn’t have to

by Yakub2 on Feb 15, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes they would. You get one cross-division rival.

Let’s not get into this today please. Focus on what we can do with scheduling

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Ok fair enough. You now have another topic to post on for later.

by Yakub2 on Feb 15, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I realize these are rule changes for the ACC in general

and I think they sound good, but to me the most important scheduling change for FSU in particular is moving the UF game to earlier in the season. It’s a huge disadvantage going into the ACCCG. Ive heard a trade with Tennessee might be possible where they would play UF late and we would play them in their old spot. Dont know how true it is but something needs to change there more than anywhere else for us to have the best chance at success in the ACCCG.

by cerebralfish on Feb 15, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm with you here. Love to see us play UF earlier; we've got our own CCG to prepare for.

I’d rather us be more healthy going into the game that really puts us into the BCS. FSU’s in a BCS conference with a championship game; winning the conference gets us where we need to go. We ought to be much more conference-savvy and work to maximize our chances of winning the ACC. If we win the ACC, the BCS games and MNCs will follow.

We used to need a late-season ratings boost to push us into a bowl game with MNC implications, and the UF game gave us that; we don’t need it anymore. Rivalry aside, the UF game is now just a brutally physical OOC game that grinds us down right before the ACCCG. Much smarter now to play them earlier and avoid beating ourselves up right before the biggest game of the year.

"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra

by Dogrel on Feb 16, 2011 2:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Virginia.

We already have an established “rivalry” game with them every season for the Jefferson-Eppes Trophy. They were the first ACC team to beat us after we joined the conference.

by Lpfsu511 on Feb 17, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

bingo

>>>─────;;─►

by NorFla_Nole on Feb 17, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd rather swap BC for GT.

I’d like to play our closest opponent EVERY year.

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick

by tricknole on Feb 15, 2011 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

The less distance we have to travel the better.

"A prediction, in a field where prediction is not possible, is no more than a prejudice."
- Malcolm Gladwell

"The reason you can't play defense is because you can't."
- Jerry West

by Jamil Dawson on Feb 15, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

The GT fanbase is also all for this idea

We’d love to get that series going (y’all are second closest for us, after Clemson).

by mjacksongt on Feb 15, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

You'd split Duke and UNC?

It seems in most sports, they have quite the rivalry.

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly.

Every inter-division rivalry is matched in my list.
BC-Miami, Maryland-Wake, Virgina-FSU, VT-GT, NC State-Clemson, UNC-Duke

by Lpfsu511 on Feb 15, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Looks pretty good to me.

I feel a bit of the old “too unbalanced” argument (FSU, Clem, UM vs. VT, UNC), but Duke/WF help a bit. Although Atlantic and Coastal are cool-ish division names, I like the more logical geographic alignment.

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Do other sports keep the cross-division rivalries?

Or do divisions even come into play in the other sports? Soccer looks to be a round-robin, in basketball this year, it looks like we play NC and UM twice but BC and Mary once… etc.

Also, in the above proposal, who would be our cross-div rival? NCSt?

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

if we were in the same division

that game would never be for an ACC title, but it could very well determine which of us goes to it if Miami can improve. so its not as though that game would lost its luster, just that it would never be for an ACC title. theres an advantage on both sides, but i think it made sense when they made it the way they did.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

But I still disagreed back then

In the 90s, UT/uf played early, and by the end both teams could still be in the NC talk. The ACC guaranteed that FSU and UM would eliminate one or the other in the ACC CG. Of course, neither team has sniffed the NCG since the expansion…

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

technically

if one of them didnt get into the ACC championship game, they likely wouldnt have the record to go to the NC anyway, especially if the team that made it won the ACCCG. what they were setting up (or hoping to set up) was a scenario in which the both had NC-worthy records. the two could play each other, and the winner might go to the NC, likely putting the loser in the Orange Bowl, since they would likely still have the best record of any of the remaining teams.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I never liked it myself either

Miami and FSU should be in the same division. We’re playing them anyway, I don’t see any reason to play them twice.

A geographic realignment would significantly increase the quality of the conference, even if it made our road a bit tougher.

I think the comparison to the UF-UT game is a very, very good one.

by LouC on Feb 15, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

True, that was a different NC back then

But it might be interesting to see how many CG losers are in BCS bowls as opposed to teams that placed second in their divs and don’t have that extra loss.

Last year: 0. Arky didn’t even play for the SEC title
2009: 1 (SEC, uf 12-1)
2008: 1 (SEC, Bama 12-1)
2007: 0 (Kans and Geo didn’t play in CGs)
2006: 0 (LSU didn’t play in CG)
2005: 0 (Tex didn’t play in CG)
2004: 1 (OU entered CG #1, lost to KSt)
2003: 0
2002: 0 (uf didn’t play in CG)
2001: 0
2000: 0
1999: 0 (Tenn didn’t play in CG)
1998: 0 (uf didn’t play in CG)

Several #2 teams have made it from confs without a CG, but it doesn’t seem like a CG loss helps you get into the BCS, unless it’s your only loss. If the ACC wants/expects UM to be elite again, it seems like FSU and UM should be in the same div to maximize BCS appearances.

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

That is a fantastic look at the issue

I’ve always thought it had much more potential to hurt than to help if both teams were elite.

So let’s say FSU and Miami are elite. FSU is 12-0, Miami is 11-1. They are playing in the ACCCG. If FSU wins, it’s extremely unlikely that a 10-2 Miami team is going.

If FSU loses, then both go. But in that scenario, the ACC get’s two teams whether we lose to Miami, or anyone else. If we get beat by a 9-3 VT team, VT and FSU are going. So I don’t see how it helped to have FSU and Miami in separate divisions.

On the other hand, let’s say they are in the same division, and FSU is 12-0 and Miami is 11-1. In this scenario, Miami can get the bid if FSU wins. They might even get the second bid if FSU loses. So in this scenario the ACC gets two teams whether FSU wins OR loses.

Am I missing something? In other words, in the dream world where Miami and FSU are top elite teams:

If they are in separate divisions, the ACC scores two teams only if the team with one loss now wins. You are essentially rooting AGAINST getting a team in the national championship game if you are rooting FOR the ACC to get two BCS teams.

If they are in the same division, you come out of the ACC champtionship game with two BCS teams NO MATTER WHO WINS. And hopefully, you have two BCS teams, and one of them in the National Championship game.

It just doesn’t make any sense to me. If we didn’t play already, it might make sense, like when the Big 12 was formed and the two perceived strongest teams were TX and Nebraska and they didn’t play each other every year (I know the Big 12 didn’t have the cross division rivalry but just go with me). Then we could potentially have both teams go undefeated and meet, with both teams going. But as it is, it doesn’t make any sense to me.

Now whether any of the other schools are willing to play in a division with Miami and FSU both, that’s a different story I guess. But trying to engineer a FSU-Miami rematch in the ACC CG is just stupid.

by LouC on Feb 15, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think there are many projections of Miami sliding.

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick

by tricknole on Feb 16, 2011 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Huh?

Maybe we’re looking at different reference points. I’m talking about a slide from a dominant program. So maybe in today’s terms, it would be better phrased “levels out as a good to formidable team” — but doesn’t return to elite status.

by arrdub on Feb 17, 2011 9:41 AM EST up reply actions  

ACC scheduling parity

It seems like In Atlantic division they are purposely trying to schedule so teams other than FSU and Clemson have a chance next year. How else to explain Clemson and FSU schedules? ACC seems to want everyone to be 8-5.

Many points Bud made are common sense and would be a clear improvement.

by Mr. Smith on Feb 15, 2011 11:25 AM EST reply actions  

Auburn-FSU-at Va Tech

no excuse for ACC to do that to Clemson. Auburn may be a 6-6 type team next year, but they can win that game. Tough physical game for Clemson which they should win, will be close. Then FSU, bigger tougher game. No excuse to send then at Va Tech next week. None.

by Mr. Smith on Feb 15, 2011 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

ACC doesnt seem to grasp emotional side

Auburn game will be huge, players, coaches, fans fired up like its the super bowl. If Clemson wins, town goes crazy. tough to put that away and get just as up next week vs FSU ( FSU in same boat after Oklahoma). Then ACC really sticks it to them by sending them to Va Tech, critical conference game for both, after Auburn and FSU.

 Clemson needed a breakup or bye in there.

FSU end would still be rotton, but one simple switch for FSU, move Clemson date with at Duke or at Wake date and it would be a lot fairer.

schedule needed to be proofread by an outside body after it was prepared. this would be an excellent future rule to add, whoever makes the schedule, have maybe a 3 person expert panel look it over and circle problem areas and suggest alternatives before it goes out.

by Mr. Smith on Feb 15, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

example of emotional side of the game & scheduling

Two years ago early in season FSU goes to Provo as a 7 point underdog, big inter-conference matchup and flat out demolishes BYU.

Next week FSU unable to get up for a second big game in a row ( Even though they knew S Florida was pretty good and was gunning for FSU) and looked sloppy, sluggish and bewildering in a 17-7 home loss to an improving South Florida.

The loss infuriated many FSU fans who could not figure out why the team looked so ugly and bad. It was the scheduling. Self-imposed though, FSU did that to themselves.

by Mr. Smith on Feb 15, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree

Who or what are you glorifying with your life?

by ricobert1 on Feb 15, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

That, and FSU fumbled four times in the redzone

and Ponder was injured.

But I agree, it was a letdown.

The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.

by fsu44 on Feb 15, 2011 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

not that you are wrong, but there were other things going on with the S FL game. (coaches fighting)

but you can point to pretty much any other big win and see the game after was very poor.

تهنئة للشعب المصري الشجاع

by harper.rb on Feb 15, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

pardon the pun

but that would be giving Ron Cherry’s refereeing career the “death nail”.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

and yes, i know its death knell

which is why i said pardon the pun. its a stretch, to be sure, but i thought it was worth it.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Jack Childress is worse than Cherry.

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick

by tricknole on Feb 16, 2011 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

You just made every gata's day.

I’m not sure which crew/individual is the worst. I’d say one of the worst displays was in our game at Wake that XLee QB’d a couple years back. That was legitimately a shameful experience for the conference on a national stage. Seems like I recall them taking more than one commercial break to consider, re-consider, and de-consider a punt muff or something and still got the call wrong.

by arrdub on Feb 17, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Excellent rules...you will however notice that one of the big problems is that the

ACC has again prostituted the member schools by agreeing to play these ridiculous Thursday night games. Let the Big East or Mountain West play games on Thursday nights. It buys the ACC nothing. You don’t see the SEC, PAC-10 or Big 10 playing Thursday night games. As people have pointed out in the past; the ACC thinks that you broker television contracts and schedule football just like basketball. I hope that some of the member schools will read Bud’s suggestions because that is the only thing that is going to make the ACC change its ways. If you get enough pressure on the school trustees and president’s to fix the problem and see the revenue potential of implementing a system like the one suggested. It is not an accident that the SEC and the Big 10 make money hand over fist from their television contracts.

by Baltimoron on Feb 15, 2011 11:33 AM EST reply actions  

Excellent rules…you will however notice that one of the big problems is that the
ACC has again prostituted the member schools by agreeing to play these ridiculous Thursday night games. Let the Big East or Mountain West play games on Thursday nights. It buys the ACC nothing.

This is false. The ACC must do this. It is an essential reason why they don’t get paid at the level of Conference-USA

The ACC cannot go head-to-head with the SEC on a Saturday and win in the ratings. It needs to play these games. That is not up for debate. It is just my hope that the ACC plays them smarter.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I disagree on that point...If it buys the ACC so much why is it the same four teams that

are ALWAYS hosting the games. As you have pointed out FSU will not schedule a home Thursday night game because of classes at the stadium complex, parking and a variety of other reasons. This holds true with a few other schools as well. The ACC lived just fine without Thursday night games for the better part of a decade with FSU playing in the conference. You may feel that ACC cannot go head to head with the SEC on Saturdays but if they followed your scheduling plan I guarantee that you would have games on Saturday that would go up against SEC match-ups that would easily split the regional viewership and in some cases the ACC would gain market share since the ACC market is from Boston to Miami and includes some of the largest television markets in the country (Atlanta, D.C., Boston, Miami) Every game that the SEC plays is not a marquee match up.

by Baltimoron on Feb 15, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

The ACC lived just fine without Thursday night games for the better part of a decade with FSU playing in the conference.

That was before money really mattered in college football.

I really think you are off base here.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

ACC was playing Thursday games by mid 90s.

So nowhere near “better part of a decade”.

Conference homers are the lowest form of fandom. That is why the SEC has so many of them.

by gtne91 on Feb 15, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

what if

FSU plays a acc thursday night game in jacksonville or orlando?

by jhunter723 on Feb 15, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Against who?

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

well seeing we play a thurs night game every year

@ bc, @ nc state, or @ a unc, gt, vt.

why cant we get a big dog over there…..like clemson? or a vt?

by jhunter723 on Feb 15, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

People won’t travel to go see those teams on a Thursday. it’s just not big enough.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

clemson would be good

its not very far for clemson fans to travel well.
vt) always travels well.

by jhunter723 on Feb 15, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t see that game drawing more than 45K

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

if we dont force a host thurs night game next year

we will be playing @ a virginia tech or miami on a thursday night

by jhunter723 on Feb 15, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Jacksonville for a midweek game is not an option.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

why not?

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Because FSU won’t give up a home game
Because it would be poorly attended.
Because the opponent wouldn’t give up the home game.

It’s just wrong on every level.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

FSU will give up a mid-week Thursday home game.

they just did. for the last several years.

you may or may not be right on your other points. I think FSU + Clem draws more than 45k in ATL. but I dont mind disagreeing there.

تهنئة للشعب المصري الشجاع

by harper.rb on Feb 15, 2011 5:39 PM EST up reply actions  

No they haven't

We’ve refused to schedule a Saturday game on Thursday, we haven’t given up a home game.

The real exception of “not giving up home games” I brought up elsewhere, when Wake/Duke sold their home games for “neutral site” games vs. us in Orlando. Not sure if the payout these days, and on a Thursday, would be substantial enough to make them do it now. Probably depends on how good we are, based on Orlando’s expectations for us drawing a big crowd.

by arrdub on Feb 15, 2011 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

bingo

so there is a possibility of that happening. that seems to be the ideal scenario for something like this.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

he meant a game in JAX

but thats a good point about FSU-Clemson. but i still would rather that game were played as a home/home to sold out crowds on saturdays than move it. only stick a typical, non rival, thursday night game there. dont put a well attended and well-watched saturday game on thursday at all.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

our record the last ten years in JAX

is better than in tallahassee. if that matters

by jhunter723 on Feb 15, 2011 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

its nice, but it doesnt really help

cool stat, though

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I say we move all our games to Jacksonville and see how long we can ride that streak.

by 38Noles on Feb 15, 2011 7:27 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

No, they didn’t. FSU has played all four conference gome games each season.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, JAX maybe should be excluded

not the right combination of proximity and population to make the attendance worth it. for the record, i dont think these games would sell out, but i think it would make enough money and make the ACC brand more popular, which helps the ACC. im not all about the conference, but it doesnt hurt us to not have to play at someone else’s house on thursday.

but like i said down lower, if the ACC cant tell (insert NC team here) that the game has been moved (and compensate that team somwhat for the move) then it wont work. i figure with the way they scheduled FSU and Clemson in particular, they couldnt care less about what the teams want, its all about them, which is why i think an idea that helps FSU and helps the ACC isnt such a bad idea. as long as they arent sticking it to FSU, i am all for it.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 5:44 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s not true. We could easily play @ NC State or @ MD

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Miami's not likely

I can’t see Miami wanting their guaranteed home sellout vs. Florida State put in jeopardy by eliminating FSU fans that drive to Miami for a weekend game that can’t do it on a Thursday night.

by Kazoonole on Feb 15, 2011 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

it doesnt work for a matchup that already draws fans

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you just made that up.

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick

by tricknole on Feb 16, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

i would rather play a home/home with clemson every year

and always on saturday. if it was VT, i would say the same thing. the only advantage to playing a neutral site on thursday night is to cater to fans in a game that isnt 2 marquee teams. the thursday night games have traditionally been proving grounds for slightly lesser teams so they can draw a TV slot for that matchup. the big games like FSU vs. clemson or VT will always draw a crowd and a good TV spot on saturday.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

it wouldnt be the first time i skipped class

or the worst reason, either. i have skipped classes for much less than going to see the Noles play football.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Jacksonville

isnt very far from tallahassee

by jhunter723 on Feb 15, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Close to 3 hours from FSU to the stadium in Jacksonville.

Not very close, either.

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick

by tricknole on Feb 16, 2011 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I wish I could find it again...

I’ve tired several times but the Democrat ran a piece a few years ago analyzing the financial impact on the city of moving a home game to another city and it was something like $5 million that would have been dumped into the local economy that was lost due to playing games away from Doak.

IIRC, it ran in 08 a little before or after Colorado at Jacksonville.

A.K.A. geoofisfoagoos

by geoffissiffoeg on Feb 15, 2011 9:27 PM EST up reply actions  

actually

Ohio State, Oregon, Miss State, Auburn, USCAR and a host of Big 12 teams played thursday night games this past year; and bud is dead on about big games for the ACC that no one else would care about unless they were the only game on tv. Think Boise, who has to play on a lot of Fridays just so folks can see their product. And speaking of which, Bud is again correct in criticizing the moves if the product is junk (fewer days of rest after a big conference game).

"If St. George would have killed a dragonfly instead of a dragon, who would have remembered him?" - Fredric March, Inherit the Wind

by SalmonNole on Feb 15, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

The ACC seems totally incapable of recognizing that last point. When FSU and Miami played in the first week of the season, the games were some of the ugliest ones in the history of the rivalry. All the ACC saw was the payday and national coverage.

by 38Noles on Feb 15, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Though the scheduling could be tweaked

FSU does have the advantage of 2 cupcake games to start with instead of Miami 1st game or OU 2nd game. Next, in the 2nd game of our “2 games in 7 days” scenario we play BC which will also be coming off a sat. game b4 facing us thursday so thats a wash. Also instead of playing a more competitive Maryland team b4 UF like last year, FSU has UVA at home prior to UF. Finally, we will face Clemson directly after OU which would be terrible except Clemson will play a tough game vs Auburn prior to our showdown also. I think win or lose Clemson will have a letdown because that game is a toss up or at least close to it. FSU could lose to OU which could be a letdown, but if they win and beat the #1 team in the country I think it builds momentum and huge confidence going into Clemson. The only thing that NEEDS to change in my opinion is playing UF last game of the season as I’ve heard talk around here(near knoxville) talk of FSU trading that game with Tennessee so they can play them later in the year. Not sure if that would happen but UF last game needs to change as its a huge disadvantage before going into the ACCCG. What is clear is that the ACC isnt targeting FSU and picking on them as has been suggested. Other teams in the ACC have an equally crappy schedule.

by cerebralfish on Feb 15, 2011 11:34 AM EST reply actions  

Wouldnt call the BC thing a wash

BC travels to Maryland then comes home for a Thursday night game where we have to travel 1000+ miles to a game. Like someone else mentioned above theres a distinct possibility that Auburn stinks it up next year, i see them losing 4+ games, OU not so much.

by Deaux on Feb 15, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Dont forget to factor in ....though we travel 1000 miles

we are still a far superior team. A wash is being nice. I give us the distinct advantage in that game.

by cerebralfish on Feb 15, 2011 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Advantage, yes

But I’m not sure about distinct.

"A prediction, in a field where prediction is not possible, is no more than a prejudice."
- Malcolm Gladwell

"The reason you can't play defense is because you can't."
- Jerry West

by Jamil Dawson on Feb 15, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Far superior agreed but

BC is one of those teams that constantly gives us trouble, no matter how bad they are.

by Deaux on Feb 15, 2011 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re right. With their sound defense and limited mistakes, I think they always will. Even if we get good enough to start challenging for National Titles were going to have to worry about that game as a potential slip up.

by 38Noles on Feb 15, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

don't see how the travel 1000 miles thing factors in

other than there will be like 5 fsu fans in attendance… it’s only like 90 extra minutes on the flight to boston instead of to raleigh.

by stevib on Feb 15, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

There are many factors invloved in who wins and loses a game beyond what happens between the 1st and 4th quarters.

Longer flight, fewer recovery days, and fewer pratice days is a big deal. If you look at one factor it seems fine. If you look at all the factors, no matter how small you think any single issue is, they add up.

"A prediction, in a field where prediction is not possible, is no more than a prejudice."
- Malcolm Gladwell

"The reason you can't play defense is because you can't."
- Jerry West

by Jamil Dawson on Feb 15, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions  

its not the time that matters

flying that far means a change in atmosphere, so its not so much about the travel time as it is the change in climate. 1000 miles from any place in the US to another is going to be a change in climate, whether in temperature, humidity, etc., and it makes it harder for our team to adjust, especially on a short week.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

ok that makes more sense. I think the worst thing still is the short week

I think much of the Eastern half of the US doesn’t have a whole lot of different climate, and if anything going north (apart from the winter extremes) just makes it easier. I mean, I spent a summer in Rochester, NY and was happy to both wear shorts the whole time and not sweat through them every day. Going to BYU may have been a different stadium, you’re going into both a different climate zone and a different altitude.

by stevib on Feb 15, 2011 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

try sprinting in cold weather when you're used to florida

it burns your lungs, and it drags you down.

but theres no question the short week is the worst part of it. the travel makes it worse, but its not the worst part.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 16, 2011 9:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Rec'd so hard.

What are the chances we get Swofford and Co. to read this?

Seriously, this is a very well thought out and logical proposal. If it were a petition of some sort, my name would be on it in a heartbeat.

"Florida State, we're about business...Miami had that party swagger, we've got that business swagger, and Gainesville...they're left out." - Karlos Williams

by EnterTheOcho on Feb 15, 2011 11:34 AM EST reply actions  

Calm down bud

This isnt TKs house anymore.

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by Miaminole on Feb 15, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

damnit

I forgot about that. What a load of crap that was.

touche

Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole

by Miaminole on Feb 15, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree, major load of crap

I wished FSU stood up and sued them over it (I don’t see the authority of the ACC to penalize a team unless a rule was broken). Maybe we were worried about being punished in other areas… like scheduling…

by MWM Nole on Feb 15, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Swofford won't read anything that will make him a good commish.

Mike Slive he’s not.

"A prediction, in a field where prediction is not possible, is no more than a prejudice."
- Malcolm Gladwell

"The reason you can't play defense is because you can't."
- Jerry West

by Jamil Dawson on Feb 15, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I like the rules but would propose slightly different set

same generally idea though:

1. In weeks 1,2,3,13 (Thanksgiving) teams MUST schedule 3 of the 4 OOC games. The other game can be any weekend. Provides some flexibility, allows for FSU/CU/GT to schedule a patsy week 12 if they want.
2. No short weeks before conference games. So no Saturday→Thursday 5 day scheduling.
3. Cross-divisional games are scheduled as early as possible. No November rematches in ACCCG. November games should be intraconference games to determine divisions.

Conference homers are the lowest form of fandom. That is why the SEC has so many of them.

by gtne91 on Feb 15, 2011 11:46 AM EST reply actions  

intradivsion, not conference in #3

Conference homers are the lowest form of fandom. That is why the SEC has so many of them.

by gtne91 on Feb 15, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I don’t see the added benefit of #1.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

It is similar to the "No non-conference games Oct 1-Nov 15" rule

only wider time frame and allowing a little bit of flexibility for ONE and only one midseason OOC game.

Your rule says ZERO OOC games from week 5-11, mine says 1 max OOC game from week 4-12. Same concept, slightly different implementation. It gives teams like BC a chance to schedule Notre Dame, for example…this year that game is week 12, so would work under both rules, but other years I think it is slightly earlier.

7 teams would be in violation of my rule this year. They have at least 2 games in middle of the season, which is the big problem for scheduling around. 3 teams (FSU/CU/GT interestingly) have all 4 of their OOC games in weeks 1-3 and 13. My rule would allow you to move Charleston Southern to week 12 if you want or schedule it as you have. Or to play a homecoming patsy in mid-October instead, if you prefer that.

Conference homers are the lowest form of fandom. That is why the SEC has so many of them.

by gtne91 on Feb 15, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

That wouldn’t fix much IMO. i think you need to give the ACC people a lot of flexibility to do things right, particularly because Thursday nights are involved.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

It makes a huge difference

Ive played around with the schedules in past years and scheduling around a few games isnt hard, scheduling around a bunch is nearly impossible (which is why they had 2 short week games this year).

Yes, yours gives them a bit more scheduling flexibility, but I think its a bit too strict. Wake and BC both play ND this year, and ND has some tradional games at the start of the year, so I doubt both could fit the game in under your rule. Allowing one game in that period (you are actually allowing two by not blocking out week 4 and week 12) provides a middle ground between a pure BigInt style 4xOOC, 8xConf style schedule and the chaos we have now.

Conference homers are the lowest form of fandom. That is why the SEC has so many of them.

by gtne91 on Feb 15, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around yours. I guess dates would work better.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I dont think in terms of dates, weeks dont change* :)

For this year, Sept 24-Nov 19 is weeks 4-12. Your Oct 1-Nov 15 is week 5-11.

*excepting weird 14 week seasons

Conference homers are the lowest form of fandom. That is why the SEC has so many of them.

by gtne91 on Feb 15, 2011 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmm. I just don’t trust those in the ACC to do it without an entirely clean slate. And I think we need a 100% defined block that is pure ACC

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Removing rule #1. Just letting #2 and #3 stand

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Call it a political thing

I dont think we can get a 100% block, so push for what you can get.

Conference homers are the lowest form of fandom. That is why the SEC has so many of them.

by gtne91 on Feb 15, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I took our rule #1 entirely. We don’t need to tell teams when they must schedule their non-con if we are already telling them when they cannot.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

True...my rule #1 doesnt tell them when they cannot at all

The idea is to open up the big chunk of the schedule for conference games while not intirely limiting schools.

Conference homers are the lowest form of fandom. That is why the SEC has so many of them.

by gtne91 on Feb 15, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Is it possible to shade an entire article green?

This would be the TN article. Anyone arguing over semantics is really missing the big picture and its importance here. FSU will never win a national championship in a 12-team ACC with this kind of scheduling. It produces losses that the general public has no accounting of. Simply look at this schedule and fast-forward to a 2013 scenario: “They lost to BC?!?” And there goes FSU from another national title hunt.

FSU used to schedule itself out of MNCs. Now the ACC will.

by TRMNole on Feb 15, 2011 11:54 AM EST reply actions  

Im not on twitter, so someone else should do it

Re-tweet this article or the link on Michael Kelly’s twitter page ( http://twitter.com/ACCGridiron ) .

by TriNole83 on Feb 15, 2011 11:57 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

This makes sense, too much sense almost.

Given that, and the fact that this is the ACC we are talking about, what are the odds that something like this, whether in full or any portion, is eventually put in place?

by Pinto on Feb 15, 2011 12:26 PM EST reply actions  

I’ve said before I’d like to stay in the ACC for many of the reasons that have been thoroughly discussed in other threads. But that said, every year I lean a little more to bailing for the SEC (if an invitation were to exist) for many of the reasons you’ve pointed out in the last year or so regarding expansion.

In other words, this is low hanging fruit, and if the ACC doesn’t pick it, it’s an embarrassment.
But this sums it up. If they can’t do this, then I don’t have confidence in them to get anything else right for anyone other than the Carolina schools.

Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.

by mmmCheese on Feb 15, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I beleive this and it further proves the idocy of the ACC brass.

But in football, they want to see everyone at 7-5 and send 9 or 10 teams to bowls.

The SEC has sent 10 teams to bowls in each of the past two seasons while managing to have two 10+ win teams in 09-10, four 10+ win teams in 10-11, and each national champion.

"A prediction, in a field where prediction is not possible, is no more than a prejudice."
- Malcolm Gladwell

"The reason you can't play defense is because you can't."
- Jerry West

by Jamil Dawson on Feb 15, 2011 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

On the SEC: I bet a lot of that also has to do with smart OOC scheduling

If you always schedule at least 2 bottom tier Div 1 teams and 1 non-Div 1 team (because I think the rule allows one non-Div 1 team to count for bowl eligibility), then you need to win a max of 3 conference games to be .500 and bowl eligible

by MWM Nole on Feb 15, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

It absolutely does

The ACC’s poor scheduling is part of a greater issue I have not only with Swofford and the Brass but also many of the AD’s and coaches of the 12 teams. If the SEC scheduled the way the ACC does, I believe Slive would “suggest” the schools water down the OOC sched. I also believe he would protect his most valuable programs. Swofford does neither.

"A prediction, in a field where prediction is not possible, is no more than a prejudice."
- Malcolm Gladwell

"The reason you can't play defense is because you can't."
- Jerry West

by Jamil Dawson on Feb 15, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

One thought though.
All effort should be made to funnel Duke and Wake Forest to these three teams. No offense to Duke and Wake, but they are historically the worst teams in the ACC by a large margin. Teams in the ACC share equally in conference and TV money. Wake and Duke can do their football part by playing a sacrificial road game before the marquee teams play the SEC games

See the thing about that is the ACC acts like they take pride in teams like Duke, Wake, Virginia, and BC being good competitive teams. If they do that the ACC is admitting that Duke and Wake are the Vandys of the conference and I think they dont want to hurt those program’s feelings. Somebody said it best yesterday on another post. The ACC wants to be like the MLB where every team beats up on each other and you have a bunch of good medicore teams but no great team.

by feardaspear on Feb 15, 2011 12:42 PM EST reply actions  

MLB wants everyone to beat up on each other?

Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman

by CornNole on Feb 15, 2011 1:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

It is a concern, but I think it shouldn't be a concern

It’s similar to trickle-down economics. Because the SEC looks so good, every team in the SEC is given more credit than is deserved. The average fan thinks the bottom of the SEC is better than the bottom of the ACC, when there probably isn’t that much separation (2010 F/+ on bottom of both conferences: Vandy at 96 and WF at 97).

Taking one for the team (if they are even taking a disadvantage here) would actually improve their perception, even if it nets a worse record.

by MWM Nole on Feb 15, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

And WF beat Vandy 34-13

Woo hoo! A-C-C! A-C-C! A-C-C!

(We’re supposed to give the old conf cheer when our teams beat teams from other confs, right? Or am I confusing us with another conf?)

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Feel free

The was a bit of wink-wink, nudge-nudge in the post in question.

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 10:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I just did it because I'm a Vandy fan.

So I didn’t need you pointing that crap out. Ass.

Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman

by CornNole on Feb 15, 2011 10:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Rule 2 is a complete no-brainer

I do feel better that BC has a short week as well, but I don’t see why they would do that to anyone.

Is there a set number of Thursday night games per year the ACC must play to satisfy the ESPN contract?

Florida State 45 Miami 17
Florida State 31 Florida 7
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by SeminoleMike on Feb 15, 2011 1:12 PM EST reply actions  

This is brilliant

Should be on the agenda for the ACC’s pre-fall get-together.

by csfuu on Feb 15, 2011 1:46 PM EST reply actions  

Just wondering...

When the SEC or any other non-ACC teams play on Thursday night (or any non-Saturday dates), do they also play with a short week? Just wondering if the ACC is the only stupid conference schedulers.

Gripper

Tommyhawk Nation: Bobby Bowden is the all-time ACC leader in conference titles, conference wins, total wins, winning percentage, bowl appearances & wins and owns the longest conference winning streak.

by Gripper on Feb 15, 2011 1:52 PM EST reply actions  

great write up Bud

however, to play devils advocate suggestion #1 does eliminate any opportunity to showcase the ACC on a weekend when the SEC essentially plays no one and we could own the Saturday timeslots with division deciding matchups (I do however agree your suggestion is certainly more advantageous to to FSU but just wanted to point that out).

Also, not sure if it is already in the ACC/ESPN contract, but given ESPN will have no SEC matchups to showcase that weekend would they apply pressure on the ACC to keep conference matchups on that weekend in order to make sure they don’t wind up with the SEC and ACC having an entire weekend of cupcakes?

by orlnole on Feb 15, 2011 2:03 PM EST reply actions  

To point #1: Couldn’t the ACC showcase those with the ACC games that are assigned there?

Which week are you discussing?

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I confused myself – Your suggestion was that Oct 1 – Nov 15th dates be reserved for only ACC games versus my initial thought that schools must essentially squeeze all ACC games into that time frame (impossible).

My point no longer make sense. However, can I point out I don’t even feel bad since my comment warranted my first ever direct reply back from Mr. Elliott himself.

by orlnole on Feb 15, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Haha, now I get it.

Yeah, teams would still have to play 2 or 3 ACC games outside the window

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Serious questions

1) What “real” leverage do the ACC bread winners have to affect change?
2) Is FSU realistically in a position to part with the ACC in the near future (3-5 years)?

FSU - 2011 recruiting national champions - sponsored by processed cafe cubano

by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Feb 15, 2011 2:28 PM EST reply actions  

1. If FSU were to have an offer to join another conference, it would have a lot of leverage because the ACC would be in serious football ratings trouble and I imagine ESPN would look to re-negotiate that contract if at all possible. The answer to #2 determines the answer to #1, I’m afraid.

>>---l>

by DKfromVA on Feb 15, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Does it all hinge upon FSU?

I mean, does anyone else have any leverage?

On #2, what I mean is if the offer came would FSU be able to take it? I’m quite ignorant on this subject.

FSU - 2011 recruiting national champions - sponsored by processed cafe cubano

by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Feb 15, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Miami would for the same ratings purposes

Clemson and VT would to a lesser degree. I’m not 100% sure on any contractual obligations FSU has to the conference, but I’m not aware of any off of the top of my head. FSU should be able to go as it chooses, although I’m not sure if there would be a buyout of any kind pursuant to the new TV contracts.

>>---l>

by DKfromVA on Feb 15, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Pretty sure Miami is a much bigger tv draw than Clemson.

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by tricknole on Feb 16, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

They are.

Clemson actually has a negative affect on TV ratings, per the Wall Street Journal. FSU is #2.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204527804576043870683872488.html

by Lpfsu511 on Feb 17, 2011 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I personally think FSU has leverage

People think the SEC isn’t interested because adding Miami, FSU, Clemson and GT/VT doesn’t expand their market footprint. And also because of more teams to split the money with.

But I don’t buy that for a couple reasons. First, if those schools leave the ACC, ESPN is going to renegotiate that deal, as well as the SEC deal, and basically take from the ACC and give to the SEC. There’s no way the SEC has to make due with the same total pot, at least not for very long.

The second reason why they would take these teams even within the footprint is that FSU and Miami are national teams. It’s deceiving because in Florida UF fans may outnumber us, but get outside to the rest of the country, and FSU has a lot more cache. Miami may have even more. Growing up in New York State, while everyone wasn’t a big college football fan, everyone was interested in Miami. Miami may have been the first or second most popular team among people.

We’ve squandered a lot of it no doubt, but we still see stellar national TV ratings and get a ton of attention. We are in a small handful of schools that people are really interested nationally, along with USC, Notre Dame, Michigan, Ohio State, Penn St., Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Miami and Alabama. I’m sorry, I don’t think UF or LSU or Auburn has that kind of glamour.

Do I think the SEC would rather have Texas and Oklahoma – hell yes, because those are national programs + new markets.

But short of that, us ACC schools are next. Because the huge hammer is their own network. They don’t have to actually create their own network, but they have to have the threat of their own network.

The Big 10 network works because of two things, the massive population, plus the fact they have three national draws in Michigan, OSU and Penn St, and are about to add Nebraska.

The SEC has one thing in it’s favor, and that is that they have the most relevant football. But they don’t have the national following that would guarantee them getting picked up on every cable system in America.

Think of it this way, the premier games are going to be on a major network no matter what, CBS, ABC, ESPN. But the key is the second tier games that make up the Big 10 network schedule. Throwing Ohio State versus Minnesota on the Big 10 network draws big eyeballs, because it’s Ohio State, even if OSU is 6-2 and Minnesota is 4-4.

The SEC doesn’t have that kind of national draw on their second-tier games. I’m sorry, LSU vs. Mississippi State or Georgia vs. Vanderbilt doesn’t draw that much interest outside the deep south, and there isn’t going to be a huge demand to have those games on your cable network in Los Angeles or Chicago or NY.

But you throw Miami and Florida State in that mix, and it’s a different story. Yes, maybe not the pull of Michigan or OSU, just because of the size of the school and the far flung alumni and the length of time they’ve been playing. But more interest than any SEC school outside of University of Alabama.

So if the SEC pulls FSU + Miami + two more, the viability of an SEC network is a lot stronger. They don’t have to actually form it, but the viability of it forces ESPN to pony up even more, and take it from the ACC, Big East, etc to do it.

If they don’t, they face the prospect of losing not only second and third-tier SEC games, but second tier FSU, Miami, Clemson and VT games. ESPN’s college football franchise can’t absorb that, especially when they are trying to provide massive online content as well.

So people say that the SEC wouldn’t be able to get more money out of ESPN, but I say they most certainly would because ESPN wouldn’t have a choice.

by LouC on Feb 15, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I've heard SEC fans play up TexA&M

It expands the SEC into Texas (and Texas recruiting), adds a solid but not great team.

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm sure they would

I could see A&M and Oklahoma or Oklahoma state, and FSU and Miami.

That would be good for them. But the only advantage of taking all ACC schools is it decimates the ACC. An ACC that still has Clemson, VT, GT and UNC still has some, if diminished, value. I think decimating the value of another conference is important, because you need to pick up another conference’s cash eventually.

Getting Oklahoma might decimate the Big 12/10/8 or whatever, but A&M and Oklahoma State probably doesn’t. They could probably pick up TCU, maybe BYU without a huge net loss.

by LouC on Feb 15, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting take, Lou.

FSU - 2011 recruiting national champions - sponsored by processed cafe cubano

by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Feb 15, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks

I think the idea we shouldn’t go to the SEC can be a reasonable point, even if I disagree strongly.

However, I just can’t stand how many people state that us joining the SEC is not a possibility, usually based on the ESPN contract or markets.

by LouC on Feb 15, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Being completely ignorant of the logisitics/politics etc. involved.

and just from a fans perspective….I’d love to be in the SEC.

FSU - 2011 recruiting national champions - sponsored by processed cafe cubano

by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Feb 15, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

As would I.

The ACC is who I thought they were.

"A prediction, in a field where prediction is not possible, is no more than a prejudice."
- Malcolm Gladwell

"The reason you can't play defense is because you can't."
- Jerry West

by Jamil Dawson on Feb 15, 2011 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I like the ACC, and it's potential if played right

We will not be a football giant, perhaps, but strategic planning and maybe expansion could enhance our profile greatly. In that case, FSU has an attractive conf (also think academics and non-football sports – weren’t four ACC teams in the Director’s Cup Top 10 at the end of last spring?).

But if the conf won’t make the smart moves to maximize its potential, I’d be open to the SEC or something.

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I think this is where I stand.

The football sacrifices aren’t worth it if the conference is going to continue to be stupid. Needs to get its act together ASAP or we should walk.

by arrdub on Feb 15, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the answer to #2 correlates closely with our win %.

If we’re competing for ‘ships, we’re a good pick-up for the SEC – if for no other reason than monopolistic purposes of keeping championship caliber teams in the fold. If we’re doing well enough, a 16-team league becomes more appealing to the SEC, with us as one of those teams.

Contractually, the exponential growth in money seems to allow anything to happen. ACC raiding the Big East, for instance…. members had fines to pay, but they paled in comparison to benefits. But maybe conferences have become more savvy in this regard and bound their teams a little more tightly in recent years?

by arrdub on Feb 15, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Did the ACC help with those fines?

FSU - 2011 recruiting national champions - sponsored by processed cafe cubano

by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Feb 15, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

You know, I can't recall how that panned out.

But I remember the figures being markedly less than what a coach’s buyout would be these days… like a couple million or so.

by arrdub on Feb 15, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

a monopoly sounds good

but at some point you are looking at dimishing returns.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the thought would be,

either FSU brings in ‘ships or it gets beat down by the conference.. but either way, the powerbase of FL recruiting remains in the SEC’s hands.

by arrdub on Feb 15, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand what you're saying about diminishing returns

There would definitely be some. But you’re not going to add more than once conference game. For SC, UF and UGA, it’s potentially a wash because you were playing those teams anyway. Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, etc would have to drop their one tough/semi-tough OOC game, but that would be semi palatable for a while since the new conference opponents would be attractive and exciting.

One way of thinking about it is that you would pin an extra loss on a bunch of teams that would diminish their record and appeal. I’ve thought about that as a negative. But I’m not sure that’s the case with the top level teams in the SEC.

I do think it would potentially brutalize the lower teir of the conference though.

Somebody would have to extrapolate what a 16 team conference schedule would look like with FSU, Miami, Clemson and GT added, and see what that would do to the potential for 10-win teams.

I’m not sure it affects national championship aspirations too much, since I think it’s established that a 1-loss SEC champ is a shoe in for the national championship game, and I think in this scenario a 2-loss SEC team would be in the conversation as often as they wouldn’t.

Maybe it’s their hubris, but I’m not sure the SEC would be super intimidated by those additions either. I don’t think GT would scare anyone, FSU probably would because of our recruiting and tradition, and Clemson because of their home environment. In Miami’s case, for all the reasons given on this site, the SEC might see a chance to get great value, with a top tier name but a second tier program.

by LouC on Feb 15, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

screw the SEC

lets jump to the Big 12. Replace Nebraska. Keep Miami on the OOC. Frack UF, frack Clemson.

If TCU can → Big East, then FSU can → Big 12

not really serious here. but sorta am. seriously.

تهنئة للشعب المصري الشجاع

by harper.rb on Feb 15, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I still favor the ACC/PAC10 merger.

Play almost exclusively night (prime time) games. East meets West for the championship.

by arrdub on Feb 15, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Why not a ACC/WWF merger

We could open the season against Thunder Lips.

FSU - 2011 recruiting national champions - sponsored by processed cafe cubano

by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Feb 15, 2011 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Perhaps the ACC should pick up lingerie football?

That might help with the Title IX scholarships, and we could add men’s soccer or something. j/k

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

we would win that too

some of the other teams would be horrific

>>>─────;;─►

by NorFla_Nole on Feb 15, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

beautiful!

i might be worried about some of those girls ‘roid raging at the leach, though. they arent pretty, petite sorority girls, after all. but it would mean adding another profitable program like men’s soccer, and im all for that. even if you dont like watching soccer, bringing in more money would sure be nice.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Thunder Lips rampant roid usage would render him ineligible.

"A prediction, in a field where prediction is not possible, is no more than a prejudice."
- Malcolm Gladwell

"The reason you can't play defense is because you can't."
- Jerry West

by Jamil Dawson on Feb 15, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

New game:

analogize major football brands with WWF (or ECW or whatever letters they use now) characters.

No Faruq for FSU, Rock for UM, or Goldberg for UGA because it’s too obvious/easy.

by arrdub on Feb 15, 2011 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I smell a fanpost.

"A prediction, in a field where prediction is not possible, is no more than a prejudice."
- Malcolm Gladwell

"The reason you can't play defense is because you can't."
- Jerry West

by Jamil Dawson on Feb 15, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

1st person to compare FSU to Tatanka gets smacked

FAMU – Nation of Domination
UF = “the Corporation”
Lane Kiffen (anywhere) = N.W.O.
Miami = The Miz. Claims to be “awesome”…….but isn’t.

http://Twitter.com/DRusso97
#TellJokesGetMoney

by DRusso97 on Feb 16, 2011 1:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I could not believe it when I saw that idiot on a commecial for pro wrestling...

and then saw that he was the champion??? These kids today are a sick, sick brood if the Miz on top is what draws ratings. I bet an 80 year old Hulk with a entirely fused spine could still whip that fool in a street fight.

by arrdub on Feb 17, 2011 9:50 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't want to see Hulk Hogan wrestle *EVER* *AGAIN*

I cringe when I see his Rent-A-Center commercials…

http://Twitter.com/DRusso97
#TellJokesGetMoney

by DRusso97 on Feb 17, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

night which time?

PAC people will get super pissy if you try make 8pm eastern games, so look to be limited to 330pm

تهنئة للشعب المصري الشجاع

by harper.rb on Feb 15, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

and the sarcasm continues...

although it basically makes for a CaliFlorida game in terms of large portions of the talent on those teams, so thats interesting.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not opposed to that

in the sense that I think you’d have a nationally attractive conference.

I would say the problem is in all the other sports.

But anyway you slice it a 16-team conference is going to look different in terms of scheduling from what we’re used to, with some conference opponents playing once a decade or whatever, so who knows how that could be worked out. Could one West Coast road trip knock off our entire cross division slate in baseball or women’s basketball?

I just don’t know how it could work in terms of practicality.

by LouC on Feb 15, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

so you mean play all division games, with maybe 1 cross

that would mean it would be the best of the ACC playing the best of the Pac-10 for 1 spot at the top of the superconference. neither conference would go for that.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

You sound like UCF fans who think they could tell the Big East to piss off and join the Big XII instead.

I don’t see joining the Big XII as beneficial for us in pretty much any way.

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick

by tricknole on Feb 16, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Is a Thursday-night neutral site game a possibility?

any way to work that out? I’m sure some schools will get pissed that they lose a home game. So that could be the determining deterrent. But I figure you might be able to work it out if you can get a hold of the whole schedule.

تهنئة للشعب المصري الشجاع

by harper.rb on Feb 15, 2011 2:45 PM EST reply actions  

I'm for this

An annual game in Jacksonville or Charlotte would be nice.

"You make the helmet, the helmet doesn't make you." << Jimbo FN' Fisher

Follow my mindless rants on Twitter @RobbedbyJT

by Marmaduke1 on Feb 15, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Screw Jacksonville.

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick

by tricknole on Feb 16, 2011 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

why?

"You make the helmet, the helmet doesn't make you." << Jimbo FN' Fisher

Follow my mindless rants on Twitter @RobbedbyJT

by Marmaduke1 on Feb 16, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

People having to travel to a neutral site on a Thursday?

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

1 team has to travel anyway right? just get two teams who both need away games and both gunna do a Thursday.

تهنئة للشعب المصري الشجاع

by harper.rb on Feb 15, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

attendance wise I can see the problem.

but 2 decent teams at a neutral site in a city shouldn’t be much of a problem, especially on a holiday weekend.

تهنئة للشعب المصري الشجاع

by harper.rb on Feb 15, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I feel like that takes away from tradition instead of adding to it. Don’t like the idea.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

You wouldn't rather face VT in the Georgia Dome

on a thursday night instead of Lane Stadium? I mean if we could get the GA Dome for this thursday night game I’d be much more for is because at least we’d be less then a days drive to be able to tailgate and then catch the game.

by fsugrizz on Feb 15, 2011 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

No, I think it takes away from the collegiate atmosphere and wouldn’t want to give up a home game.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it's a horrendous idea.

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick

by tricknole on Feb 16, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

very intriguing

that also eliminates the need to shut down classes and account for parking. one school loses money, but it also means that the ACC can schedule anybody to play on thursday, since one of those teams doesnt have to be one of the few that can host.

it also means both teams are technically away, so they would both object to a short week on the same level. right now, FSU and BC have a short week this year, but BC doesnt have to travel 1000 miles to play it, so they have a distinct advantage over us there. if we both played somewhere else, say ATL or CLT, both teams would have to travel. that also means the neutral site would change to make the distance more fair, i.e. no FSU vs. a NC school in CLT, and instead in ATL. another example would be FSU or GT vs. Miami, which could be in MCO (Orlando), TPA, or JAX, and Clemson or a NC school vs. Miami at JAX.

they can get a central location, which means equal chances or fans traveling, and they could negotiate with the stadium for a contract for that year, which would make both teams some money to cover the cost of travel. the fact that the ACC could negotiate it means that they can take the stadium willing to pay out the most money to host, and then schedule a game that fits the location out of several team choices, giving them negotiating power to demand more money. offer ATL and JAX an FSU vs. NC State game and see who wants it more.

this shouldnt happen with rival games, like FSU-Clemson, that should always be home and home, but for the other standard games, it might make the scheduling more flexible and make the game more interesting. it could be similar to the Chik-fil-A Kickoff in ATL, which seems to sell fairly well.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Fans are not going to travel to something like this for a weekday.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

they travel for Labor Day, meaning most of them have to skip work the next day

why wouldnt they skip a couple of days and make a long weekend of it?

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Because BOTH fanbases would have to travel quite far. The game would be poorly attended.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

nobody lives in Tallahassee

both fanbases ALREADY have to travel far to go to a game at FSU game on Labor Day. putting the game in a large metro where a lot of the fans already live eliminates more people having to travel than putting it in Tallahassee does. there are likely more Noles living in ATL, TPA, or MCO than in TLH, so it makes it a home game for them, and they dont have to travel OR take a day off to go.

same goes for CLT. most people that live in NC and are fans of their respective school probably dont live in that city, so again, they would have to travel either way. CLT is a bigger city than Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, or Winson-Salem, the only exception is Raliegh, which has a population of barely more than half of CLT (60%). basically, you cater to a larger population to increase attendance from both crowds, but only on a one time basis, and the stadium pays for the rights to do it.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Wrong.

FSU has at least 25K fans who regularly attend games in Tallahassee.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

and they all live in Tallahassee?

if so, that still only accounts for 30% of the stadium. are you including students in that number? when you consider that Tallahassee has a population of less than 200,000, and its about 3 hours from the nearest average-sized city or above (PNS one way, JAX the other), it cant compete with ATL, CLT, TPA, JAX, or MCO, in terms of total population.

besides, how many people go to games in Doak is irrelevant, since we are talking about moving a game thats already on the road for FSU to another road location that is more convenient for FSU fans.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

yes. Student section + 10K more.

If you ask other teams to do it, FSU will be asked to do it. This is silliness.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 5:17 PM EST up reply actions  

look down

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

that one get a rec for 2 reasons

it made me laugh, and because if somebody didnt get what i was saying, it would look pretty random, so it works more often than not.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Let’s make this go green.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 16, 2011 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

do more than those numbers go to a game at Duke or Wake?

since nobody is arguing that we move a game from Doak, thats the only thing thats relevant here. since Duke only SEATS 33,941, i would say that selling 37,310 is an improvement, no? and wake seats 31,500, less than 34,974, also an upgrade.

even if we assume that Duke and Wake sell out their games vs. FSU, they STILL wont sell as many tickets as those 2 games. but thanks for proving my point.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 16, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Why would those teams agree to play a home game against FSU in the state of Florida?

Besides, the leasing of the stadium would could potentially cut into the “extra revenue” a few extra thousand fans would bring. I don’t see any point being made.

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick

by tricknole on Feb 16, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

they already did it before

but beyond that, it doesnt have to be FSU that plays them, nor does it have to be in Florida. nevermind that it would not be leasing the stadium, but selling the game to the stadium for them to host it. thats money in, not money out. welcome to the party.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 16, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Somehow the dollars worked out that it made sense for Wake/Duke in the past.

Maybe Orlando gave free access to the stadium as an enticement to draw in the extra visitors to the city. Presumably the ticket prices are more expensive than tickets at either of those teams’ homes stadium. Who knows what else was involved. But it certainly worked out before.

BTW, I went to that Wake game, had no recollection of the stadium being that empty. What is/was the capacity?

by arrdub on Feb 17, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Awesome info.

Historical data is hard to dispute.

FSU - 2011 recruiting national champions - sponsored by processed cafe cubano

by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Feb 16, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

unless its irrelevant

then its just cool, but useless

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 16, 2011 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

FSU fans are going to pay to go see another game, against a poor team? Doubtful.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 16, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

said "historical data" proves that wrong

like i said, if you make it an extended weekend event, you can get the locals to go for just the game, then go back to work on friday, PLUS fans not from that city who want to make a vacation of it.

tell me people wouldnt plan a weekend in, say, orlando? hit up downtown disney if its you and the guys or the mrs, and if you bring the kids you can go to disney world. tampa? maybe theres a home Bucs game on sunday that you stay for.

this is all assuming that the ACC or the stadium dont set up activities like they do for bowl games, in order to make more money on activities and by encouraging ticket sales.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 16, 2011 10:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Again, we had only 52,000 show up in Orlando for the Champs Bowl

against Wisconsin. A Big 10 school we had never played, after an 8-4 season (first 8 win regular season since 2004). Yes, I am telling you people will not go to this game. I don’t know about the rest of you, but 52,000 is NOT a big crowd, and it wouldn’t look good under the lights on national television.

As a reference, the Capital One Bowl (SEC vs. Big 10) routinely gets sold out. There are usually crowds in excess of 65,000 at the game in the same stadium in Orlando. Why shouldn’t FSU be able to sell out any game there in our own backyard? It’s been proven time and again that we can’t do it. People talk about the location of Tallahassee being a huge burden. So a game gets moved to Orlando and 50,000 people show up instead of 82,000.

by Lpfsu511 on Feb 17, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

How is it irrelevant?

FSU - 2011 recruiting national champions - sponsored by processed cafe cubano

by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Feb 16, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

when comparing ticket sales to Doak, it is

the only question here is whether a team would voluntarily sell their home thursday game to an outside venue to make more money, not whether we should do it. we wont, nor should we, since its not going to help us at all. but like i said before, if Duke and Wake stand to have more seats sold to play a game elsewhere than they would if they sold out that game at home (which is unlikely), it may be cost effective for them to do it.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 16, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

this

>>>─────;;─►

by NorFla_Nole on Feb 16, 2011 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

while true, it doesnt refute anything i said

this game doesnt have to be FSU, it could be any other team. my point is that this might increase ticket sales in an otherwise underattended game, and if that game is well attended, it would not be ideal to host that one.

regardless of that, as i said, even if the locals show and the game is sold out, there would still be more tickets sold in a larger venue, as evidenced above. they cant compete with a stadium that found 4000 more seats filled than they have available. and the host would make money on ticket sales, concessions, and possibly on activities they set up outside the stadium. considering that it would be a special game, ticket prices would probably be a little higher than at Duke/Wake, so they would make their money back and then some.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 16, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

There is no chance moving a home game to a neutral site location on a weekday will draw larger crowds.

None.

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick

by tricknole on Feb 16, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

thank you for that bold opinion

if you read the rest of what was said, you might not think so.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 16, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I read it all and it makes no sense.

MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick

by tricknole on Feb 16, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

then either you dont understand what im saying

or you do, and you disagree. either way, i dont care, i made my point and im not going to explain it to you again.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 16, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Im sure he read it, and Im sure he understood it

Im in the it doesnt make sense camp, you know, since you care so much.

Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole

by Miaminole on Feb 16, 2011 10:25 PM EST up reply actions  

eye = poked

FSU - 2011 recruiting national champions - sponsored by processed cafe cubano

by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Feb 17, 2011 2:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Selling home game vs. FSU has been done before,

so I’m with you on that. Hasn’t happened on a Thursday, though, so presumably they’ve either done the math and figured out it won’t work, or FSU has been too down to make it feasible.

If we’re in championship contention for a while and pull in the FL swing voters (i.e., bandwagoneers), maybe something like this becomes a consideration.

by arrdub on Feb 17, 2011 9:57 AM EST up reply actions  

I went to 6 of those 9 games.

I remember zero of those 6 games.

"You make the helmet, the helmet doesn't make you." << Jimbo FN' Fisher

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by Marmaduke1 on Feb 16, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Take out GT

That would be stupid,

But any other team would be nice to have a Thursday night game in the dome.

by BenDNole on Feb 15, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

why would GT be stupid?

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Basically a home game for GT

I think the point was to make both teams travel a bit (meet halfway) for the game.

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

thats why i said to send GT elsewhere

specifically, i mentioned sending GT to play Miami in JAX, MCO, or TPA, which would all be somewhere between the two of them.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

He mentioned the dome and GT

Someone probably misread something at some point.

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

i see it now

stilts replied to himself to take out GT. theres the problem, thanks invictus

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

No prob

I also overlooked that he replied to himself, lol.

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly.

I’ve never understood FSU fans that think games like this would actually work. We can’t sell out home games, and barely sold 10,000 tickets out of our 18,000 ticket allotment to the 2nd most prestigious bowl the ACC has to offer against the SEC East Division Champion (coached by hated Spurrier) in the Georgia Dome in Atlanta (which has a HUGE FSU alumni base), and people think thousands of people are going to flock to a neutral site game against a Maryland/BC/Virginia/NC State type team on a Thursday night?

Hello reality…

by Lpfsu511 on Feb 15, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

FSU actually travels really well.

like Bud’s already pointed out, we don’t have the population to solely support a 83K stadium. Need at least a few thousand fans to visit and FSU hasn’t got that with the ACC.

تهنئة للشعب المصري الشجاع

by harper.rb on Feb 15, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

We don’t need to sell out Wake, Duke, and 2-3 cupcakes a year when they are in Doak. Not necessary.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 16, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

That does look good.

But we are talking about the present. Since 2007, we have sold out exactly 3 home games out of 20 home games, 2 of those were UF and the other was USF and both of those teams brought 15,000+ fans to the game to help us sell it out. We’ve had triple the amount of games with 25,000+ empty seats the past three years than we have had sellouts.

We have lost over 20,000 season ticket holders and over 4,000 Boosters since 2004. We have A LOT of work to do just to get our home attendance back to where it needs to be so that this program is not losing MILLIONS of dollars a year on ticket sales. We don’t need to be worried about inventing neutral site matchups against Clemson/NC State/Wake/Duke or anyone, that is the point.

by Lpfsu511 on Feb 17, 2011 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Ooooooh, forgot about another reason why this wouldn’t work.

Any teams worth matching up from the other division wouldn’t be a good idea because they could re-match in the ACCCG

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

so make it only within the division

FSU-BC and FSU-NCST are both within the Atlantic, so its not as though theres a precedent that the games are from separate divisions

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Won’t work. People don’t travel to see BC or NC State play.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

point taken on BC, they just wouldnt get a thursday game

but if you put the FSU-NCST game in ATL or JAX, you mean to tell me that an increased FSU fan attendance wouldnt make for a comparable total attendance, making attendance virtually a wash?

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

FSU will then be asked to move a game too, which is a no.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

even though we already successfully said no to a thursday night game?

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Teams are fully in control of their home games. No way a team gives up one without someone else returning the favor.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

so it wouldnt work as both teams' away game?

would that just not work within the schedule? plus, if we are talking about the ACC screwing teams with scheduling already, couldnt they just do the same here? admittedly, since FSU has really nothing to lose here, i may be biased, but it wouldnt shock me if Swofford said “screw you NCST, we are taking your home game and a pro stadium is paying us to host it instead.”

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

No, that would not work. Why give up a home game?

Do the best thing, which is not giving up a home game.

No, the ACC cannot move your home game. You control your home game.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

like arrdub (i think) said above

some teams have sold their home games, which is what i was getting at when i said move the game and compensate the team. i thought it would have to be forced, but apparently some teams do it willingly, which is much preferred. i wouldnt give one up, but it they will, it sounds like an all around winner to me.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

this is good stuff

i think after all this healthy back and forth, we may have hashed out a way that this scenario could play out, and all parties would agree to it. now THIS is what i came here for.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

When is the last time someone did that?

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

dunno when it was, defer to arrdub:
The real exception of "not giving up home games" I brought up elsewhere, when Wake/Duke sold their home games for "neutral site" games vs. us in Orlando. Not sure if the payout these days, and on a Thursday, would be substantial enough to make them do it now. Probably depends on how good we are, based on Orlando’s expectations for us drawing a big crowd.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 6:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, I remember that. Was mid-90s, before the TV contract.

1. Wouldn’t happen now.

2. Definitely wouldn’t happen on a Thursday night.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Didn’t Birmingham offer Duke $1 million to move their Bama game there? If that didn’t get their attention, I agree, they’ll never do that again

by Jonathan Loesche on Feb 15, 2011 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Duke sold out season tickets this year. Bama estimated its fans bought 15,000 of those packages.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

No to mention, Bama home tickets are hard to get.

Fans from the Carolina’s, Tennessee, Georgia, and Virginia probably NEVER get to see the Tide play. Alabama just added another 8,000+ seats to their stadium and they still have a waiting list for season tickets of over 5,000. Not to mention the cost of being a booster just to buy the tickets in the first place. It’s a much better deal to just buy Duke season tickets, attend that game, and try to sell the rest.

by Lpfsu511 on Feb 16, 2011 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Yep. I bought 4 player’s fam tix for Bama-LSU for $225 a peice and felt like I got an absolute steal (50yard line, row 1)

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 16, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

why wouldnt it happen now?

its not as though duke or wake suddenly got better. if anything, wake is back to being terrible again, and duke is still bad. seems like they might make more money from the contract than they would in ticket sales if they keep being non-competitive in many of their games against much better teams. it could also make more money against a lower level team like virginia right now, since i dont see that game being well attended either.

so even though total attendance might stay low, they might stand to make money, and the game would be more enticing since it includes a long weekend, and hosting in a different city with things to do makes it a well rounded short vacation.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

 Birmingham offered Duke $1 million to move their Bama game there? If that didn’t get their attention, I agree, they’ll never do that again.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

how much would duke make for a home game vs FSU?

and how much vs. UVA? if either of those numbers is less than $1 million, and assuming that a stadium would pay them more than that, why wouldnt they do it? duke wouldnt move their game for $1 million likely because they have now made more than that from Bama buying their tickets

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Definitely a lot more than a million. Rays has the actual figures.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

which is a lot more than a million?

and where are the figures? i honestly have no idea how much a team like duke makes, considering their stadium is smaller, they likely sell their tickets for less, and they arent likely to sell out.

but more importantly, what are the numbers that Duke would make for those games, and how much would a stadium pay to host an ACC game? ive gotta believe the numbers would be at least comparable.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 7:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Duke could, theoretically move a non-weekday game.

But moving a weekday game is not an option because people would not show up. Not that Duke ever hosts a weekday game anyway.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 7:15 PM EST up reply actions  

It would have to come as an Orlando package with some incentives thrown in.

Like big discounts for extended weekend stays to see the Mouse in conjunction with the game ticket package. I have no idea if there’s a precedent for this though. Cities are getting creative with economic development though, so who knows.

by arrdub on Feb 17, 2011 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

A re-match is possible anyway

So play the game early (like on Labor Day, instead of on a Thursday night)? Still tries to highlight the conf’s product, and a rematch could add an element to the CG (if the first match was a good game)… a rematch only a few weeks later loses its luster.

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Bud, why do you feel that...

since we have the best name recognition in the conference we should be given an eariers schedule? If we are this “marquee” team then we should have no problem beating the all the other teams in the conference right? I mean after the year was over and during the recruiting season you had been warning all of the teams in the ACC and especially in the Atlantic division about our impending and future reoccurring dominance. Now you want to complain about the schedule? Doesn’t make sense… I get that we have some tough scheduling but I think Alabama, at LSU , at Auburn (a stretch of UFs schedule) is a bit more difficult than our toughest strech (NCSU, Thur at BC, Miami). I don’t understand why you think we are owed something bc of being a perceived front runner in the ACC. In the past we have been favored for the conference but havent won it since a lucky win in 2005. Bud I agree with you most of the time but saying we need an easier schedule bc its better for our conference so we get a better TV contract is bogus. We have been mediocre over the past 8 years and still got an improved TV contract. I think you are way off base here. Life isn’t fair. Win your games.

by camfsu04e on Feb 15, 2011 3:47 PM EST reply actions  

It's not just our schedule

It’s also marketing – don’t set FSU/Clem up the week after both teams play huge OOC games. Give our teams the opportunity to focus completely on the OOC marquee match-ups (if both win, the ACC improves its reputation), without having to worry about losing a key divisional game the following week.

Sched FSU/CU later, just as the divisional races are wrapping up – that game could decide the div champ, so give it a good November time slot. Etc.

by Invictus13 on Feb 15, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

its not that we are owed anything

the SEC is deep, so there are several teams that could be title contenders. the ACC is not, its pretty much FSU on top, with VT and maybe Clemson hanging out just below. it is in the best intersest of the ACC for them to look good, so they should schedule all three of those teams to have an average schedule with no big roadblocks to success. they went 1/3 this year and helped VT, but they screwed FSU and Clemson at the same time (scheduled us to beat each other up when we come off OU/Aub, 2 good OOC teams, and then they sent Clemson to VT).

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Analogies are the worst form of argumentation

Would you jump off a bridge just because someone else did too? (Sorry, stupid quote AND an analogy but it is very applicable here and gives you a counter-example.) EVERYONE, PLEASE STOP USING UF’S AWFUL SCHEDULE AS REASON FOR US TO HAVE AN AWFUL SCHEDULE

Our slate of teams is not in contention (we are not asking to avoid player tougher teams). Instead we are asking for the ACC to give ALL of the teams a fair schedule – one that makes the conference more money and places ALL teams in better positions to win their OOC games. Making our schedule more favorable for us does not mean others’ schedules must be worse (in Clemson’s case, it would definitely get better). We do not want to see sloppy football (teams not playing up to their potential because of hard games unnecessarily grouped together or short weeks).

by MWM Nole on Feb 15, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I get what you are saying and that makes sense.

I just find it ironic how bud boasted about how we were going to leave everyone in our dust in the ACC, and now the schedule comes out and he starts complaining. Thats all. I still think this is a do-able schedule.

by camfsu04e on Feb 15, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

We ARE pulling away from the pack....

How fast it will happen is speculation.

Regarding the schedule, he’s not the only one. When you have a legit gripe(i.e. 2 games in 5 days AND you lose a day traveling 1,000 miles) it’s not just complaining. This is way more complex than that. These decisions have implications on a billion-dollar industry that we can play a much more prominent role in due to inherent advantages. It’s like pulling up to the old guy at the stoplight in the ‘Vette. I’m sure you’ve seen the old guy in the ‘Vette. When the light turns green he accelerates so slow you see a Prius fly by him. We’re the old guys grandson, waiting for him to either die or realize he needs to take the bus.

"One good thing about music, when it hits ya, you feel no pain. So hit me wit music, hit me wit music now....."-----Trenchtown rock

by Scalpemall on Feb 15, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

You're messing with a racecar, right now.

Don’t run it in the red….it could blow.

FSU - 2011 recruiting national champions - sponsored by processed cafe cubano

by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Feb 15, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Racecar is a palindrome.

Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman

by CornNole on Feb 15, 2011 10:51 PM EST up reply actions  

star buttons not tub rats

Ill never forget that one. Dilton from Archie comics taught me that

Bring back Peter Tom Willis— a true Nole! -FiestaNole

by Miaminole on Feb 16, 2011 8:48 AM EST up reply actions  

We got the improved TV contract because we still draw the huge TV numbers. VT doesn’t draw. Wake doesn’t draw. Etc.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

just a guess here, but

hasnt viewership (and number of games shown in primetime) gone down and back up to correspond with FSU’s record at the time? that would mean all the more reason to make FSU look better, right?

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Not really, because people love a train wreck.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

No, it makes sense from a marketing standpoint

How do you bring the conference to relevance? Put the best product on the field on the biggest stages. How do you do that? Schedule favorably for your top programs. Give them the best chance to win big OOC games like Florida and Oklahoma, just as the SEC does. Do what you can to have a FSU/Miami or FSU/VT conference championship game that people will actually watch. Give your best teams a shot to be nationally relevant when the season ends. Your post alludes to something I addressed above – this idea that the best teams will always “rise above and beat whoever they play” is THE BIGGEST FALLACY IN SPORTS.

>>---l>

by DKfromVA on Feb 15, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

yep, 2010 Bama says hi

arguably the most talented team, and they got shafted by a tough schedule.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

and a smart SEC decided to never let that happen again. The ACC freakin drives me crazy.

by TonySopraNOLE on Feb 15, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

2010 bama

was not the most talented team. theyre secondary was shaky all year, theyre qb was finally exposed. and they had a pretty stinky special teams. they were overrated all year

by jhunter723 on Feb 15, 2011 5:42 PM EST up reply actions  

i said arguably, but please expound on that

who was more talented. Auburn and their terrible D? Oregon? Stanford? some other SEC team?

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

no, but they dont go from undefeated national champs

to 3 losses in one year, after not having lost enough talent to justify the fall. its hard to go all year and not lose, but its even harder to all of a sudden lose (and struggle) for a large number of games with a team of near equal talent to the one that didnt lose at all.

essentially, if theres no major change in coaching (none), no major hole in talent (like Auburn will have this year), or no really rough schedule, they should probably only lose once, twice at the most. they also nearly lost to Arkansas. funny thing is, when they actually had a fair shake at 11-1 Michigan State, they whipped them solidly. i think thats telling.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 16, 2011 9:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Where's my un-rec button?

"A prediction, in a field where prediction is not possible, is no more than a prejudice."
- Malcolm Gladwell

"The reason you can't play defense is because you can't."
- Jerry West

by Jamil Dawson on Feb 15, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

FSU has been "on top" for while

but as soon as the season starts we blow. I do see changes and believe this year we are front runners but if you are looking at precedence, that doesnt help our cause.

by camfsu04e on Feb 15, 2011 3:59 PM EST reply actions  

what does that have to do with anything?

sound like you are pessimistic about the season, but that has nothing to do with a change in scheduling

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Not pessemistic

I actually like our schedule. But I have become down trodden over the past years. I get filled with hope and then it gets crushed. It doesnt help that my college years were 2004-2008. haha.

by camfsu04e on Feb 15, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

mine were too, dude

but it helps to be a realist. when a tough game is coming, you are cautiously optimistic, but you expect that it may or may not go your way. you make arguments for both sides, and you hope your team wins out. it helps when you get down big early on to know that it was a possibility, and it makes the second half more bearable to watch, as you find yourself analyzing the play and not being devastated about the result.

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

If your precedence is 7 years, no. If you’re smart enough to look beyond that, yes.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

no Im not going to look at the 90s

as a precedence for todays game. If you are smart enough to recall, even you have noted how much the game has changed since then.

by camfsu04e on Feb 15, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

The 90s were the last time fsu was trying to win.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Except for 2010

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

he means REALLY investing to win

FSU wanted to win, but they werent doing everything possible to get the wins. see the difference?

"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

by nole07 on Feb 15, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

if FSU can go 9-3 again and then win the CG or a bowl, they will have b-2-b 10-win years and will be fully back in the CFB establishment once again.

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I look at it this way

The ACC had a chance to help the best team in the division go 7-1 or 8-0 in ACC play. With our current schedule, we’re probably on the 6-2 or 7-1 bubble.

I think we make the ACCCG either way, but we look like a better team if we go into the game 10-2 (7-1) than we do if we go in 9-3 (6-2)

by BenDNole on Feb 15, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Excellent read Bud.

Somebody needs to show this to Kelly and co.

by fsunole23 on Feb 15, 2011 3:59 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Test

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
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by Bud Elliott on Feb 15, 2011 6:28 PM EST reply actions  

Sorry, Bud - logic has no place here

Who or what are you glorifying with your life?

by ricobert1 on Feb 15, 2011 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Can someone Please!!!

Email this article to the ACC board!!

by FSUsBiggestFan on Feb 16, 2011 2:02 AM EST reply actions  

Ann Bowden??

http://Twitter.com/DRusso97
#TellJokesGetMoney

by DRusso97 on Feb 16, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Tom Lemming.

FSU - 2011 recruiting national champions - sponsored by processed cafe cubano

by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Feb 16, 2011 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

One HUGE problem with this...

It makes WAY TOO MUCH SENSE….great article, great facts to support your argument, and someone please make sure this gets into right hands! Love to see these implemented as soon as possible…and to be honest, wouldnt be that hard to do. Thanks Bud!

by mplangCU on Feb 17, 2011 11:28 AM EST reply actions  

Spread the word!

'11: Minimum Goal: 9-3 Regular Season. Given FSU's non-con slate, don't care who the 9 are.
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 8th in offense, 88th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)

Tomahawk Nation: Nole-Holds-Barred Analysis of FSU Sports!
Follow Tomahawk Nation's Twitter feed!

by Bud Elliott on Feb 17, 2011 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

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