Previewing the Notre Dame Fighting Irish
In a battle of opposites, the Seminoles take the court tomorrow night against the 2-seed in the Southwest, the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame. At this point in the season you know what you’re going to get from FSU so this feature is focused on getting to know Notre Dame.
The Irish are led by 11th year head coach Mike Brey, who had previously led
The primary difference between Brey and his mentors is his lack of attention to the defensive side of the ball. He’s stated publically that he’ll willingly sacrifice defense to maintain proper offensive execution, and to that end he has few peers. He’s the offensive version of Leonard Hamilton. Unfortunately, like Hamilton, his one sided approach hasn’t led to much post season success. In 8 trips to the NCAA Tournament Brey’s teams have survived the opening weekend just once (once in 5 trips for
Here is the average national ranking of these two polarized squads over the past 9 years:
Brey calls his offense the "94-foot motion." It’s a standard 3-out 2-in motion with a key exception. Motion offenses are by nature slow, and when you don’t run stacks (as shown in the Texas A&M film review) then there’s typically a lag time from the moment the point guard crosses half court until any real action happens. This is because the offensive players are all making their reads, and then reacting according to the rules of their offense. Brey wants an offense that flows from full-court to half-court without hesitation. So during transition he uses audibles which dictate the opening moves of the motion. For example, this video shows him teaching the audible "Cross" which is exactly what it sounds like. The 2-guard and small forward both begin in opposite corners, and then cross through the paint where they receive screens from the post players which allows them to pop free on each wing. The point guard will then distribute the ball to one of them who will turn and look to the post (or make another offensive move). If you are interested in learning all of their audibles, former assistant Sean Kearney breaks them down in this article.
The results of his 94-foot motion offense, at least during his first 14 ½ years as a head coach, was a motion offense run at a significantly higher tempo than most. In fact, the efficiency of the offense was directly correlated to the speed at which it was run. Here’s a look at his teams adjusted tempo charted against offensive efficiency since 2003 (the year those data became available):
The pink line (points scored per 100 possessions) followed the blue line (possessions per game) closely, until 2010 that is. There we suddenly see the tempo drop to the lowest point of his career, while the offensive efficiency rose to the highest point of his career. So what happened? The answer is Luke Harangody’s knee. He went down on February 11th, and at that time was averaging over 20 points a game and nearly 10 boards. Notre Dame immediately lost their next two and fell to 6-8 in the Big East. But then Brey decided to do something radical which was to go to his "burn" offense. The burn is what he’d traditionally run in the last four minutes of games where he had a lead. It is designed to run time off the clock and limit possessions. In the four remaining games of the regular season he stepped off the gas enough to average only 56 possessions a game, which, over the course of an entire season, would have placed ND as the slowest team in the country. They won all four games. So in the Big East tourney he slowed it down even more, averaging 53 possessions in three games, losing in the semi’s to eventual Final 4 team West Virginia. They then lost a crawling 54 possession 1-point game to Old Dominion in the opening round of the NCAA’s. But the lesson was learned, and in 2010-11 Notre Dame had the slowest tempo of any Big East team (though not in the burn 50s).
With Harangody in the NBA this year’s Irish are led by five seniors starting with 6’3 G Ben Hansbrough and 6’8 forward Tim Abromaitis. Hansbrough (
Another arena is which these two coaches differ is in their rotation. While coach Hamilton prefers a deep bench from which he can substitute without stop for 40 minutes, Brey takes the opposite approach and runs his starters until they fall apart. FSU has 11 guys who average at least 13 minutes a game, while Notre Dame has 6. That 6th player for Notre Dame is 6’1 freshman PG Eric Atkins who’s role has diminished since conference play began, and he rarely shoots the ball, averaging 5.8 points and 3.1 assists.
Notre Dame is almost completely reliant on scoring from beyond the arc and from the line. They score a smaller percentage of their points on 2-point shots than 323 of 345 D1 schools. They are going to spread FSU out defensively, and if they have a good shooting game then I don’t think we can win. As a team their eFG% is 54.1, which is 15th in the country, while FSU limits schools to 42.2%, which is best in the country. In 18 of 23 (78%) games against top 100 opponents Notre Dame has scored more than a point per possession, while only 3 of 21 (14%) similar opponents have scored at that rate against FSU.
Their defense is defined by what they don’t do, which is force turnovers, commit fouls, or give up offensive boards. They mix man and zone defenses.
All of Notre Dame’s 6 losses this year were to tournament teams.
Vegas opened with the Irish favored by 6.5, and Pomeroy has ND -7. The game tips at 9:40 EST.
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Wow! Talk about a study in contrasts between ND and FSU.
As boring a match-up as the committee set up between A&M and the Noles, they got the exact opposite in this game. While these teams don’t create the glamor match-up that makes for good soundbites on t.v,, the difference in style and philosophy, and which will win out in the end, should make a non-interested college basketball fan pay attention.
And will we actually have the first game of the year (I think) that requires separate 1st and 2nd half threads around here???
Dammit, Florida won.
Why ask useless questions? How deep is the ocean? How high is the sky? Who is John Galt?
I think Duke got over a 1000 comments, but we never started a 2nd thread.
Hopefully there will be a good turnout.
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I'll be working
so you can expect 50 or so less useless comments.
Your Welcome!
Is it football season yet?
by NOLEcasterWX on Mar 19, 2011 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll be there
count on it.
There's another one: SMACK!
by Gator Slapper on Mar 19, 2011 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
1613 (1st and 2nd half threads) and counting
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
two things about this matchup that i dont like
1. they have multiple shooters who are patient and will find the open man – combined w/ our penchant for leaving the 2nd or 3rd option wide open in our defensive rotation
2. w/ all their upperclassmen they will be less likely to succumb to pressure, force teh action, and get into bad situations that our defense thrives on
if we collapse on penetration like usual, they will have too many options for open looks
be interesting to see if FSU more funnels the drives into the trees and dares ND to score among the shot blockers. thats what i would do.
good point - we have a clear athletic advantage in teh paint
the only silverish lining is that hopefully we wont be beaten off the dribble to often, so we won’t need to help, similarly we shouldnt have to double their post guys, which we tend to do quite often
if we can avoid double or helping then we can stay home on their shooters, and just like duke, force them to adjust and beat us w/ an area that’s not a strength (w/ duke, k either couldnt or wouldnt abandon his game plan and attempt to go into the post)
i don't think we win this one
Historically, we’ve struggled against these types of teams. It would take another Duke game (re: perfect gameplan, perfect execution) to beat ND.
It’s not impossible though.
foul 3pt shooters + turnovers >=< points?
ill shoot the moon and go equal
Post Play
I would like to see us commit to getting the ball to our big men in the first half. First, i like our offense a lot more (which is to say any at all) when we utilize the athleticism of our big guys. Second, it doesn’t sound like they have a lot of depth there, and one of their big guys is prone to fouling. Let’s get him out the game, keep the game in 50s, keep the turnovers below 13 and give ourselves a chance to get to the sweet 16.
I don't understand why we haven't.
More games than not we look disjointed in the 1st half and take a lot of contested threes, then come out in the 2nd half and pound it inside.
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by norcal_nole on Mar 19, 2011 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
For some reason
our guards have a hard time getting the angles to feed the post..
by CelticPride on Mar 20, 2011 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
True. Our entries are terrible.
But what I don’t understand is why we play so many 1st halfs that are predictable, and then adjust for the 2nd. Why can’t we come out playing inside out?
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by norcal_nole on Mar 20, 2011 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
James
doesn’t demand the ball and doesnt have moves just brute force. Unless he catches it deep it wont matter, Kreft and Gibson are better post players. ND has no where near the size to match up. So why not go big or/and crash the boards? Our shooter always falls away, runs back. Why not have him follow his shot? just once…
by Mannieblunts on Mar 20, 2011 3:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I disagree with much of this.
James does a good job of demanding the ball imo. He doesn’t have a plethora of moves but I’ve definitely seen improvement from the beginning of the season. No way would I call Gibson a better “post” player.
If we go big, Notre Dame (I’m assuming you mean 2 of Shannon, Kreft, Gibson and James in at all times?), we’ll just play into their shooters hands. I don’t want bigs having to guard the 3 point line.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
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Im pretty sure he didnt get it once in the 1st half on the block. You would think hey Im 4 inches taller than this guy, throw me the ball somewhere. Let me do something. Didn’t happen. Kreft and Gibson had immediate impacts but both aren’t consistent or capable enuff on D to take away James mins.
Going big absoultely will not happen, but they way we shot the 3s (not even close Dulkys) or my disbelief that we will stop ND has me thinking outside of the box. We have little chance to win so why not completely change it up?
by Mannieblunts on Mar 20, 2011 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
If I had a nickle...
for every time I was yelling at the TV to throw the ball into the post like you freaking mean it, I’d be rich. For some reason, we love to stare the guy down from the wing, then after thinking about it for what seems like an eternity, we gently toss the ball down low. Most times it’s knocked away, if not though, the big guy has had to work so hard just to collect the ball, he’s off balance and/or out of position to make any significant move to the basket.
by SteelerNole21 on Mar 20, 2011 8:03 AM EDT up reply actions
we dont make good entry passes and the bigs dont hold position through the pass
id be curious what percent of our turnovers occur trying to feed the post
Bad Passing Team
The problem is twofold. 1) Clearly the coaches don’t make this a priority in the gameplan, and 2) FSU is (and has been for at least the last 3-4 years) one of the worst passing teams that I have ever seen. I don’t mean they are selfish, because I really don’t think they are. I mean they don’t do things like step toward the person person you are passing to, etc (you know, things we were all taught when we were 5). As much as I know everyone will hate to hear it, watch Duke pass and catch in their halfcourt offense. That is how it should look.
Part of the problem of holding the position during the pass is that they are forced to hold their position for too long.
When I was at the game on Friday, I was consistently frustrated at the delay in getting the ball inside. James would be open and have good position, but the passing anticipation was so poor the defender would recover and James would have to re-establish himself. When he re-established, he was either in a terrible position to make a solid post move, or the inlet pass resulted in a turnover.
The Noles have to work the post consistently throughout the game and wear Notre Dame down inside.
I wonder if Hamilton will move to using the zone on defense earlier than he did against Texas AM. However, that could spell a quick deficit that would be unrecoverable.
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I think our bigs do a decent job. Our guards just do a poor job.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
It seems like the team and coach ham know we need to get the ball inside
We just don’t know how to do it or coach it effectively.
They've said explicitly many times over.
They want to get it inside, just like they want Kitchen to be aggressive on offense, but it doesn’t happen. Why? I don’t know.
It's frustrating
Typically we stand around and pass the ball around the perimeter for 30 seconds (assuming we don’t turn it over) and fire up a contested three. Pound the ball down low in the first half, get their big out of the game and let DK, MS and CS penetrate in the second half. This will also cut down on the passes around the perimeter where they tend to make the more frustrating turnovers.
Nice preview, Norcal.
Even nicer that we had another game to preview.
Go Noles
Season is a success. The rest is cherries on top
by DeanerNoleProphet on Mar 20, 2011 2:10 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Old bus still relevant.

>------::----::------->Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
FSU: "Where The Elite Become Champions"
by FrankDNole on Mar 20, 2011 11:53 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Well the women are on ESPN2 right now playing their opening round game, if anyone is interested.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
Samford 5 of 24 shooting. FSU leads 28-19 with 1:20 left.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
45-24 12 minutes left.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
Samford shooting 7 of 41 for 17.1%.
FSU up 57-28 with 7:02 left.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
dont know if Samford is god awful, or Coach Sue has been reading Ham's playbook
but thats just crazy good.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Samford wasn't that good or tall.
We were fairly tall and good.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
I think FSU will lose for 2 reasons
1) Notre Dame saw how good our interior defense was vs Texas A&M. They will not try to go through it, they will look to shoot over it.
2) FSU is stupid on offense.
#1 Defense means...we always have a shot (if we don't turn-it-over first)
this is why we should go big. ND w 5 senior is very tough unless we wear them down and they get thin. ND is very good at ‘team defense’ but super par on 1-on-1 matchups. We can take advantage of this by pounding it low early and then having Snaer and Kitchen start driving later.
ND will excute the NCSU-Scott Wood offense to perfection. Im interested to see when we go to the matchup zone or any other wrinkle to throw off their rhythm.
by Mannieblunts on Mar 20, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Hamilton's tenure at FSU broken down into 3 year intervals:
First 3
Total: 45-48 (.484)
ACC: 14-34 (.292)
Middle 3
Total: 61-38 (.616)
ACC: 23-25 (.479)
Last 3
Total: 69-30 (.697)
ACC: 31-17 (.646)
We’ve obviously improved. Just makes you wonder how far we could go if we didn’t self-handicap ourselves.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Trick is right.
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
Thanks tricknole!
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
its a joke, but...
if we keep improving at this clip, we will be able to pull better players, so its not out of the question that we could have a team that competes for 1-2 in the ACC.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody

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