Opinion: Tennessee Street Proposed Narrowing- Bad for Florida State Football
by fsu44 on Jul 21, 2011 4:16 PM EDT
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Every Florida State media outlet has basically beaten to death over the past few years the less than impressive attendance at Doak. If you wish to revisit the specifics of these issues in excruciating detail, read this post by our friend Andrew Carter over at the Chopping Block.
Every Florida State fan who has considered the issue probably has an opinion as to the root cause of the problem. The economy generally, disgruntled fans who were upset with the way Coach Bowden and FSU parted ways, gas prices, the improved HDTV viewing experience, lack of booze (for sale) inside the stadium, too many early games, too many games against marginal cupcakes, poor product on the field, etc. Realistically, some or all of these have contributed to the below capacity attendance.
Whichever reason you may have favored in the attendance debate, it is beyond dispute that the issue does not need to be exacerbated.
Enter the City of Tallahassee. Find out what they are doing to help supress attendance at Doak after the jump.
Apparently not content with narrowing Gaines Street from four lanes down to two lanes (creating a major problem on gamedays), the City is moving full speed ahead with plans titled "Moving Tallahassee, Cars Optional". This pipedream, plan calls for Tennessee Street to shrink from six lanes (3 in each direction) down to four lanes (two in each direction). The additional space will be reserved for busses and bicycles. So far, there is no word on whether final plans for the Tallahassee "Mobility District" will include an air-conditioned dome, whether the City will be giving tax breaks to businesses who provide on-site shower facilities for their employees, or whether the City will be handing out complimentary gas masks to cyclists who are otherwise unwilling to suck in the bus and car exhaust as they enjoy a breezy ride down the Strip. While most metropolitan areas have looked for ways to alleviate traffic congestion, Tallahassee should be given credit for their decision to boldly venture in the opposite direction.
For those of you who may be driving into games (or even work) from the west, your travel time and costs will increase. For those of you trying to exit Tallahassee after a night game, you have my deepest sympathy, and a reminder of the location of Tallahassee's Red Light Cameras, at least one of which you will certainly encounter and probably violate as the game day traffic backs up through the intersection.
Fortunately for Florida State fans, the Tennessee Street Shrinkage is not a done deal.
A meeting is being conducted on Thursday, July 28th, 2011 from 3:30 to 7:30 at the Renaissance Center, 2nd Floor Conference Room, 435 N. Macomb Street. If you cannot make the meeting, or if you plan on attending but simply enjoy flexing your civic rights, the contact information for the City and providing feedback is as follows:
Cherie.Horne@talgov.com
(850) 891-6400
See you (maybe) at Doak this fall!
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If public opinion is strongly against this, there is a good chance it will die.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
Gotta get them into town quicker
so everyone can sit in traffic.
Although realistically, there probably isn’t a ton of out of town gameday traffic coming in from Mahan, most of it is off the interstate, and thus, either down Monroe, Thomasville, or Tennessee.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
Mahan turns into Tennessee.
Mahan/90 is the exit road from the Interstate.
Yes
I just don’t know why anyone would take the Mahan Exit if you are going downtown. Maybe people will go that way heading back to Jax?
You’d be much better off taking Thomasville Rd. exit into town than Mahan out by the car museum. Leaving might be a different story.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
you take the Mahan exit so that you can
go by Hopkins Eatery on CCNE and get a hippie sammich on the way to the game.
"There is a guy out there who is 5-8 and 180 pounds who thinks he is 7-3, 380 pounds." -Jimbo Fisher on defensive MVP Greg Reid
itsn't cap circle ne by thomasville exit
there is a hopkins in market square….maybe there is another location I’m not familiar with
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
True...
But many people just want to get off boring I-10 seven miles earlier.
Plus, most people know that Thomasville is more efficient; therefore, they might take Mahan thinking they will beat the traffic.
Not saying it's quicker, but the Mahan exit to downtown is closer, distance wise.
Interstate 10 jogs to the northwest after that exit, making to total distance longer.
Correct...
And the speed limit is 55 on Mahan (many do not know this and continue to drive 45).
I'm just bitter
after I hit golfballs in the rain at cross-creek and it took the car in front of me 20 minutes when I tried to leave (slight embellishment) to turn onto Mahan.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
i feel you.
That particular stretch of Highway 90 near the Publix is something I’ve deemed, “The Most Perfectly Spaced Out Traffic in the World”. It’s a remarkable phenomenon. Cars spaced out juuuuust enough so you can’t safely turn into or across traffic.
And KJVNole above, I’m under 30 years old but I drive less than 55 on that stretch most of the time. Too many driveways and things to go wrong. I think going 60 on that 5 miles of road is suicidal/homicidal.
Problem solved...
Now that it has been widened.
Just drive in the inside lane....
or just continue to drive 45….whichever. Haha.
I dont get it
It’s a dumb idea. Plus, if an entire lane is for buses and bikes, say the right lane, then how would drivers turn right? Tennessee Street has bad enough traffic during rush hour, especially during school year, so why make it worse?
yes, the outside lanes would be a bus/bike combo
As far as turning right, I would assume that if there was a bus in my lane, I’d miss my turn, and if there was a cyclist in my lane, I’d run him over.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
by fsu44 on Jul 21, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
in my opinion
this just makes it more dangerous. So its a retarded idea. I hope everyone complains about it
I hope so too
I made it as easy as possible for people to send a quick email or make a phone call.
If they are worried about kids crossing, put in a pedestrian bridge. 6 lanes of traffic is still six lanes, however you want to slice it.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
there already is a ped underpass from degraff hall to the union-ish
this makes no sense at all. It wouldn’t make sense if we didn’t even have a football team. Its difficult enough to traverse Tennessee as it is.
For those of us students who bike to campus say 5 times a week
on an average 170 times a year…it makes a hell of a lot of sense. I’m sorry but frankly its about damn time Tallahassee realized that it needs to be much more bike friendly. The lanes on Tennessee street were narrow as possible and was completely unsafe. Would you rather students get injured in car accidents so that you can get away from the game 20 mins faster?
I hate bikers. they act like they own the road/sidewalk/grass
never obey any rules so frankly i don’t mind cars clipping them as they weave into traffic as they please.
by B-rod24 on Jul 22, 2011 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I dont like the fact that many cyclists
give a majority of us bad names. But I am absolutely appalled that you “dont mind” some getting injured and killed when in fact if you actually read the rules of the road a bicyclist has every single right to the road as a car. How many idiot drivers run red lights or drink and drive. I’m sure you would have a problem if you son on daughter was run over by some idiot driver who felt a bicyclist didn’t deserve to be on the road.
You lumping all cyclists into one category is in fact ignorant and downright pathetic. If a cyclist is not given a bike lane to right then they have the choice to ride on the sidewalk or the road.
I know the university's master plan called for "less auto access",
and that lead to the strategy of building 1,000 parking garages instead of improving traffic flow on campus. I didn’t realize the idiots at City Hall were up to the same (albeit worse) nonsense.
Anyone who’s ever been on Tennessee street – at any time of any day at any location – knows that it’s a hellish trough where dreams go to die. Anyone who thinks that it should be made worse for some eco-friendly waste of taxpayer money should be fired and given professional help.
by Nolesos Locos on Jul 21, 2011 4:38 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Anyone who’s ever been on Tennessee street – at any time of any day at any location – knows that it’s a hellish trough where dreams go to die
Really? This is a wild exaggeration.
I’m not making any commentary towards the proposed changes, just speaking on behalf of the current conditions, for which I cannot agree with your characterization.
I believe that is called
the theory of traffic jam relativity.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
Yeah, wrote it in a huff.
I’ve lived in Dallas, Houston, and Tampa and there’s rare a road that makes me fume as much as Tennessee St.
by Nolesos Locos on Jul 21, 2011 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Try living in Metro Atlanta
every road will have you blowing a gasket. Tennessee is a breeze, trust me.
i went to a Braves game in the spring
i was appalled to have to stop in 4 lanes of traffic at 3PM on a Tuesday. my first thought was “what the hell people, dont you have jobs? you cant all have the day off, can you?”
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
It's the worst.
I worked in the schools, so I got off around 3, and still would get stuck in 3+ hour jams. But the reason it happens is because there are no other options. Georgia/Atlanta refuse to support public transit, they just keep dumping money into expanding the interstate, which solves the problem for MAYBE a year, before it’s gridlocked again. Not a long term solution.
MARTA???
i still hntdeer and liv4noles.
by NOLEcasterWX on Jul 22, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
So common sense and choosing the best option for themselves led to them being stuck in 4 lanes of traffic during the middle of a week day?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
no, a poor choice in investment by the city led to this
the city’s job is to react to demand. clearly there is a demand for better public transit, and that demand has not been met. the ATL resident agrees.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
ATL wouldn't HAVE this problem if when it developed, it made public transit an option
Atlanta grew up in the age of the automobile (much different than older cities like NYC and Chicago), where everyone could afford a car and wanted to live in the suburbs. Thus, that’s the plan the city followed.
Now, it’s royally screwed, and people are just starting to realize it. Had the city thought this through, they’d build in options for public transit, as Tallahassee is trying to do.
by NoleFrenzy on Jul 21, 2011 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But "common sense" and "convenience" dictate transportation decisions, no?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
yep
but when the public transit system is less convenient than waiting in traffic, which option would logically follow?
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
The lack of common sense and planning for convenience led to the inefficient public transit, no?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
by tricknole on Jul 21, 2011 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
that is poor response to demand
that is not at all the same as attempting to drive demand by forcing people into your preferred option. really dont know why this is so hard for people to understand.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Because it's not force.
When nobody understands except you, the problem is you.
Well, right now, they're being forced into YOUR preferred option
don’t know why that’s so hard for you to understand
rubbernecking
Atlanta has the worst rubberneckers. I regularly encounter congestion due to people watching a balding, pale, fat man change his tire.
I avoid I-4 like the plague
I am what time, circumstance, history, have made of me, certainly, but I am also, much more than that.- James Baldwin
I would think...
that on game days they would be able to change the plan…perhaps allow the bus lanes to be used, make 3 of 4 lanes provide access into the stadium area before the game and then make all 4 lanes go away from the stadium…I just don’ t think this will be that big of a deal when it is all said and done.
This is true. I think after games the one way section of Pensacola St. runs the other way to get people away from Doak (or at least it did at what point) so maybe they aren’t totally hopeless.
As someone who has to drive Tally roads every day, I’m still totally against this. Tennessee St. isn’t perfect (that far right lane being just a couple feet short of a full lane, coupled with drunk people on the sidewalk has always seemed like bad news to me) but it’s livable as it is.
that's true about Pensacola on gamedays
There are tons of road closures and detours on gameday, and I’m willing to give benefit of the doubt to FSUPD and Tally PD that they are doing about as good as a job as possible at getting 60-80,000 people out of a central location as quickly as possible. Consider: I went to the FSU-UNC BB game this year in Chapel Hill, and even after getting lost while “exploring” campus finding my way back to my car (parked in free student parking away from the Dean Dome), it still took 20 minutes to drive the last 2 miles before getting on I-40.
I’m certainly very thankful not to have to drive in to Miami or Clemson every Saturday.
I agree.
Think this is a huge overreaction.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
Yeah why the bug out
there’s no way they’d have just 2 lanes coming out of the stadium on Gameday.
The Funk Phenomenon.
This.
City planners are simply looking for solutions other than building more and bigger roads. How dare they.
Q: What’s your favorite pre-game ritual?
A: Well, I take a doodoo. Before every game I doodoo.
Florida's Ja'Juan Story in an actual interview.
by 4-3ZoneShell on Jul 22, 2011 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Tallahassee is a very poorly planned city
And this makes it worse. How dare they indeed.
by Nolesos Locos on Jul 22, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
That's all well and good, but for the pesky fact that Tallahassee's in the middle of nowhere and its residents own 250,000+ cars.
One trait of adulthood is “majoring in the majors,” and dealing with how a quarter of a million people can go through town sensibly to get to and from work every single day IS a major concern.
This proposal does NOTHING to alleviate those concerns, and in fact makes things worse. And since they run on tax dollars, we’re paying their salaries.
So yes, How dare they indeed.
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
One of the things people are forgetting
Is that every single Friday and Saturday night tennessee street is packed with 18-22 year olds who are hammered walking on a sidewalk that is as close to the road as it gets. When I was in school I knew of two people who were hit by cars while on the Tennessee strip. If ANYTHING, reducing the number of lanes and slowing down traffic will go a long way to making college safer for college students. And I know this was one of the considerations for this idea (since I remember hearing about it when I was an undergrad at FSU).
The Swami has spoken.
by seminole_swami on Jul 22, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course them not being drunk in public would help too, but who's counting?
That would mean holding people responsible for their actions, even while inebriated.
And the lessening of traffic on Tennessee Street is only the thing you see.
What you don’t see is that the same number of cars still have to get from point A to point B every single day.
If they can’t get there using the main roads, they’re going to use the back roads and residential roads, where people live and children play. So instead of 21-year-olds who are drunk off their ass, the victims are more likely to be little children falling off their bikes or doing things like chasing balls or dogs into the street.
You’re essentially trading one victim and one general area for another. In this case, you’ve decided that 20-year-olds on Tennessee Street are more precious than little kids who live on what used to be traffic-free residential neighborhoods close to the main road.
Congratulations, your solution has just solved nothing, and may have even made things worse.
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
by Dogrel on Jul 22, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
this is how they do it in most cities
they did exactly this in CLT for the ACCCG, and it worked to perfection.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Just in case this happens...
Take note of an awesome shortcut to the west side of town: get off I10 going south on Monroe, take second right onto Lakeshore, take left at first stop sign onto Bainbridge, take right onto High Rd., right on Tharpe, left on Ocala, left on Pensacola. You’re there.
Larger questoin:
Why would you ever get off on Mahan? That thing is a nightmare. My place was off of hartsfeild, but even when i stayed at the U-club I went this way. So much better
by DoubleNickel on Jul 21, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Easy directions to campus
“Take Hwy 90 into town and just stay on it. It runs right by FSU.”
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
For some reason...
the city of Tallahassee never takes FSU into account when planning these ridiculous things. They need to remember that FSU is their number one client. Might not want to cut down access to their campus or football stadium. Customer Relationship Management 101.
Silly KJVNole, you're thinking that the main aim of the City of Tallahassee's government is to help people.
It stopped being that kind of government long ago.
Now, the only way its actions make any sense at all is if you start looking at the boards of directors of the businesses that win City contracts.
PS: Hi Mayor Marks!
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
Game Day has it's own laws...
I think we’ve all experienced enough game days to know that there’s a different set of rules that apply. As long as felonies aren’t being committed, TPD just does whatever makes their lives easiest…including traffic. Two way roads are temporarily one way, etc.
To think that designating 2 of 6 lanes during weekdays and non-gameday weekends to bikes/buses is going to somehow lower attendance is ridiculous. There’s plenty of much bigger cities that already have this in place and people still show up for big events.
by MikNole on Jul 21, 2011 5:25 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
bigger cities have highway on-ramps closer to high traffic areas.
this isn’t even a bad thing for gamedays. Its a bad thing for every day.
There are plenty of people with a lot more FSU football juice than me
who think it is a bad idea and who are concerned about its impact upon attendance and the overall gameday experience.
For people who are on the fence about attending, an additional traffic problem could be the tipping point.
I think you may be underestimating how much people hate sitting in traffic.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
honestly
it’s pretty pathetic if you won’t attend a game because of a few additional minutes in traffic…
I don't think that one thing would keep anyone
but add everything together, and I could see it happen.
Whether it makes sense is beside the point. I’d like Doak to be a tough place to play. I don’t care about people biking on Tennessee Street.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
Leaving the Orange Bowl after FSU/Miami games
In the time. Talk about nightmares.
A Seminole warrior killed in battle is a legend remembered. A Gator lost in battle becomes a pair of boots and a belt.
twitter of random stuff and tons of confessing FSU love @caine115
My point is that the idea may suck from a city standpoint but won’t affect gamedays. The lanes still exist and would most likely be opened up for games in the same way that traffic is redirected on streets around Doak.
by MikNole on Jul 21, 2011 5:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The only thing here is that so
many people come to Tallahassee for the game the day before. It won’t be just game day that is effected. I’m not sure I have an opinion on this yet, but certainly traffic to Tallahassee doesn’t just show up a few hours before the game starts.
FSU Football, making bad teams look bad since 2010.
by onebarrelrum on Jul 21, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
They could probably make the 3rd lane a normal traffic lane on the Friday before games.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
You seem to be ignoring what MikNole said.
On game days the traffic flow is altered to accommodate the traffic. They will just do the same here. If this somehow manages to decrease day to day congestion on Tennessee than I think it’s a great idea. But I don’t see this having any affect on football attendance.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
we assume the lanes would be opened
But maybe they will keep the for busses and cyclists to encourage people to use alternative means to get to the game.
Who knows…
In the short to medium term, losing two lanes will not reduce traffic. I don’t even think harper is arguing it would.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
by fsu44 on Jul 21, 2011 8:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Does that actually make any sense to you?
But maybe they will keep the for busses and cyclists to encourage people to use alternative means to get to the game.
If the city was so against accommodating traffic flow for FSU games they wouldn’t close Stadium to through-traffic on game days and they wouldn’t make Gaines one way only heading east after games.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
Random parking question.
On Game Day can you park in the student/teacher parking lots? I ask because there are a couple of smaller gravel lots I always find and they only have a few vehicles in them. I have wondered if that is because they all have decals and can not be towed.
As long as they arent designated booster lots.
Unless things have changed since i left.
On game day, parking decals don't matter
If you’re not in a designated booster parking lot and not in a specifically-marked parking space, you should be in the clear.
Decals are not needed to park on the rest of campus during game days. That is, if you can find a spot.
The last thing FSU needs is a bunch of paying ticket holders to raise a stink because their cars got towed while they were dropping $200+ each to visit town for the game.
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
What lots are you talking about?
The only ones I know definitely still exist are the ones across Stadium/Gaines from Doak. Those are Booster lots. If you were talking about others than you can probably park there because I can’t think of any that are close to Doak. Only other one I can think of used to be where they are now building the new Student Health Center and the second phase of Wildwood Hall.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
here is the updated booster parking map, I don't see any major difference from last year
http://one.fsu.edu/community/Document.Doc?id=690
Anything numbered is off-limits to non-boosters. If you really want free parking in student lots then I would definitely get there as early as possible. They stop checking for decals at about 5 PM on weekdays so you could park anywhere on Friday evening and you shouldn’t have much a problem if you needed it. On Saturdays, really after 12 PM I wouldn’t expect to find a spot anywhere. You will probably find some parking in the northernmost parking garage on Woodward (the one with the FSU Bookstore) in the morning; one good bet for parking is the lot behind Leach and Tully (get there by driving down Varsity Dr) right around 10/10:30 AM, when the Chiefs get done with their pre-game practice and many will drive off from that lot – good luck getting out of that lot though after the game in less than 90 minutes.
This article is very sensationalist and really leaves out some really important context.
There isn’t any mention of timeline. In its effort to sound super scary, the article almost gives the impression that we’re getting ready to start construction next year or something. The plan that the city is discussing is looking at the development of Tallahassee over a 20-year span. As in, what will Tallahassee, Tennessee Street and the surrounding neighborhoods look like in 2031? Tallahassee is growing and could someday actually develop a denser, city-like downtown that grows around FSU.
Tallahassee added 60,000 people over the last 20 years, and if we continue growing at that rate we’re looking at a population size similar to 2011 Madison, WI or St. Petersburg, FL by 2031 (grabbed those examples from the latest Census numbers. Doesn’t take into consideration population density). In which case, alternative methods of transportation could start to make a lot of sense. Otherwise, traffic just gets worse and worse because the only way for anyone can get around downtown or to FSU’s campus is by car. Those same 6 lanes of Tennessee will get packed with more and more cars as more people move into the area. Providing other transportation options could be a way to get some of those cars off the road.
I’m not going to discourage anyone from speaking their mind. I’m glad to see people involved in the local democratic process. In fact, although in general I’m pro-alternative methods of transportation, I too am skeptical about how this plan would work. But let’s look at what’s being discussed before going OMG OMG OMG. At TN, we pride our online community for being level-headed and non-sensationalist when it comes to football. Let’s extend that to zoning and urban development.
by Nolesferatu on Jul 21, 2011 5:47 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
The overall plan may be a 20 year plan
But I’m pretty sure that this Tenn street pilot project is about to be implemented…
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
It's a PILOT.
That means it’s not permanent and if it doesn’t work it will be scrapped. Maybe give it a chance before calling the worst thing since high-fructose corn syrup?
The West Tennessee Transit Pilot Project is a timely opportunity to test the impact of converting the outside travel lanes on West Tennessee Street into transit only lanes between Ocala and Monroe Street.
In 2014, the State of Florida will be milling and resurfacing this section of Tennessee.
Therefore, the City is considering a pilot project that would involve temporarily restriping the corridor to reserve the outside lanes for transit only, although right turns in and out of businesses would still be allowed.
The purpose would be threefold – one, to separate pedestrians on the sidewalks from fast moving through traffic (buses would only come about every 10 minutes); two, to provide faster transit service along the corridor; and three, to provide data for the Transit Alternatives Study.
Data and public feedback would be gathered during the pilot period, and only if the results are positive would the changes be permanently incorporated as part of the 2014 repaving.
What in there sounds so horrible? Talgov.com website
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
not sure you are appreciating the forces @ work
This is part of a master plan. Once it is implemented, it is that much harder to roll back…sorry, we don’t have 750k in the budget to re-re stripe the lanes.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
by fsu44 on Jul 21, 2011 8:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
the other side says
if it gives people extra days of paid work do it
A Seminole warrior killed in battle is a legend remembered. A Gator lost in battle becomes a pair of boots and a belt.
twitter of random stuff and tons of confessing FSU love @caine115
who pays for those extra days of work?
i certainly wouldnt want to pay for the city to do $1.5 million experiment on something nobody wants.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
I have no dog here
Just pointing out the facts. Obviously their are multiple sides here
A Seminole warrior killed in battle is a legend remembered. A Gator lost in battle becomes a pair of boots and a belt.
twitter of random stuff and tons of confessing FSU love @caine115
And your solution to reduce traffic is what?
This site is all about offering a counter-proposal if you disagree with an idea and you have yet to do so. How do you propose on decreasing traffic in the “mobility district” of Tallahassee?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
Right on the money
Wide roads don’t solve traffic problems.
but smaller roads do?
nobody is arguing that we widen any road, just dont restrict access for the sake of making it “walkable”.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Let’s extend that to zoning and urban development.
How about we keep our talk about zoning and urban development to a bare minimum?
Q: What’s your favorite pre-game ritual?
A: Well, I take a doodoo. Before every game I doodoo.
Florida's Ja'Juan Story in an actual interview.
by 4-3ZoneShell on Jul 22, 2011 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I like how everyone is a city planner and knows what this really means.
If you want Tallahassee to end up like a dead Jacksonville after 8pm: then continue to be against this plan.
If you want Tallahassee to develop an urban density that would support a profitable mass transit system and a density to make living within walking distance of the stadium a reality; then you might be for this.
But people who have no clue as to what urban design/city planning means and to see this + gaines st happen. Well, just continue to be loud – it guess it works.
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
by harper.rb on Jul 21, 2011 5:55 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Develop an urban density?
Are you serious?
How about developing a plan that helps people live where they want to live and go where they want to go instead of developing a plan that forces people to live where “planners” want them to live and go where “planners” want them to go (and the WAY planners want them to get there)
So doctor's should do the same?
When they tell you your cholesterol is high and your sodium is off the charts, you reply is, “Btch, I live the way I want to live”
Just like every other professional out there, a city planner has a specialization and a job. To develop a city in an efficient and organized manner. Because you see a piece of the puzzle that doesn’t make sense to you, city planners are ‘nazis’.
What is your credentials in urban design? or are you just loud?
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
by harper.rb on Jul 21, 2011 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Slight problem with your analogy...
With doctors and patients, the patients have the choice to listen to the doctors’ advice or not, and they live with the ramifications of their choice.
With city/central planning, that choice is taken away from the individual who must live with the ramifications of the (sometimes misguided) decisions of government officials (who may or may not have been elected). Obviously it’s a person’s specialization and job, but when developing a city in an efficient and organized manner they may not always be thinking clearly, or have to capabilities to comprehend all of the unintended consequences of their actions.
the choice to drive and park
its not fully removed, but it forcibly changes the choices people can make. soft tyranny (and i am not saying changing the road is on the same level here, but the principle is the same) is slowly nudging people into doing what you want them to do. nobody notices the little changes, and you havent technically forced anyone to do anything – you simply slowly remove all other options until they are forced to choose the one you think is best for them.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
I might argue
that the ability not to drive is what’s at stake here. As it is it’s difficult to use alternative means of transportation, it would be nice to have other options that are competitive with driving.
I do agree that though choice is important.
Hah, what a joke of an argument.
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
by harper.rb on Jul 21, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
oh i have to hear this one
please, go on.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
where you live
There are always choices. You don’t have to live in Tallahassee if you don’t like it. Sure you’re job may be there but nothing forces you to stay.
sure, but why do the minority get to choose for the majority?
i would imagine the majority of residents (students dont count, as they will not be around when the changes occur) would be against this, since they mostly drive and dont take the bus. why should a minority get to tell the majority they are changing the city, instead of the minority moving to another city that works that way?
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
They drive, because there's no other choice
There are lots of cars because there are lots of roads, not the other way around.
If there were lots of bike paths, there’d be lots of bikes
If there were lots of bus options, there’d be lots of bus riders
For God’s sake, if there were ostrich riding paths, people would ride ostriches.
wrong, wrong, and wrong
there are lots of cars because it is the best option for people right now.
if there were more people who were biking, the city could create more bike lanes. i love seeing wide open bike lanes without a biker to be found for miles, and then wondering how much that cost the city.
if more people wanted to ride the bus, there would be more bus options. there are plenty of options now, and yet nobody rides. it isnt because there isnt an option, its because cars are a better option at the moment.
you cannot drive demand, you can only respond to it. increasing supply in the absence of demand only leads to excess supply and abnormally low prices (if it were a business, the latter would be true. but take a look at Amtrak and see how the government isnt so worried about adjusting price and service to fit demand).
say it with me: you cannot drive demand by increasing supply.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Go read about Induced Demand
Even the Wikipedia article on it is entirely transportation-based. I think you’ll find that you are indeed wrong.
Because Wikipedia is authoritative and completely unbiased?
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
His point is that even wikipedia which is essentially
bleacher report, explains induced demand correctly. Its not citing wikipedia as the end all be all source
Even the invoking of Induced Demand is itself laughable
The concept in that sense is merely an excuse to oppress people for no reason. The solution he is proposing is to essentially make things so bad in Tallahassee that people will move away.
It is a horrendous idea, which was tried in many large northern cities 60 years ago by people who were even smarter and broad-minded than the people we have here.
The outcome of those decisions has been disastrous. Those very same northern cities, particularly Detroit, are now losing people and turning into ghost towns because those very decisions they made all those generations ago have turned into a series rigid policies that has made those towns unliveable.
If it’s already failed there, why on Earth are they trying it here?
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
by Dogrel on Jul 22, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I believe there was a study that showed Wikipedia was more accurate than encyclopedia brittanica.
And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you (Jimbo) fishers of (Grown-ass) men.
Amen.
-O-Town Nole
You just proved my point!
Cars are the best option BECAUSE THERE’S SO MANY ROADS AND INEFFICIENT BUS OPTIONS!
Ask yourself
WHY are cars the best option? Because:
a) our infrastructure supports them
b) The bus stops are too far from where we live and too infrequent
c) there are no safe bike routes
If we change those things (and people won’t do them until they’re given the option) then less people will drive.
cars aren't always the best option
but usually the most convenient. Most people would rather have the convenience of their own transportation than walk/bike/use mass transit. This convenience is >tolls, parking permits, meters, tickets, etc.
My source: working in FSU’s parking office.
My Car
Is the best option because I spent my hard-earned cash (of my own volition) on a nice vehicle with comfy heated leather seats, my own personal space, my sound system, a plethora of safety features for myself and kids, and the ability and freedom to take it wherever I want, whenever I want, and not have to rely on someone else’s schedule/stops/routine. I drive because I don’t want to sit next bums who smells like booze and piss (as I did for two years in Tally without a car as a freshman/sophomore, so don’t try for a second and tell me that’s not how it is.). I don’t avoid riding the bus because of lack of stops/available routes/options, I don’t ride it because it will ALWAYS take more time, force me to be packed like sardines in a can with my kids in close quarters with strangers, and I can’t make multiple stops anywhere without having to stand around and wait on another bus. Call me selfish, but Nole07 is exactly right about ‘soft tyranny’ (h/t to Mark Levin) removing all other choices until you’re forced to make the one they think is best for you. STOP trying to make my life choices for me, I don’t need you or any suits downtown doing that. Now you can begin a rant about “disgruntled, paranoid anti-government tea party rednecks standing in the way of progress and what’s best for everyone else” to tell me I’m wrong.
A Pessimist Complains About The Weather
An Optimist Waits For It To Change
A Realist Adjusts The Sails
by NavyNole on Jul 22, 2011 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Just about everyone of your complaints about public transit
Would be solved if it was more accessible, viable, convienant, reliable, and viable, which is exactly what we’re talking about here.
If it was made a more attractive option, more people (of all classes) would use it, thus solves your “bum” problem (and actually, I will tell you that’s not how it is, but that is neither here nor there)
If it was faster, and more routes were added, it might not take so long too.
Nobody is taking away your choice. As it stands now, those who want to use public transit don’t have a choice because in it’s current state, it’s not a viable option. So how are you NOT blocking people’s choices by being against ideas like this? You can sit here all day and go on about how this is forcing you into something you don’t want, but the fact is the current system forces people into something many don’t want (driving/sitting in traffic). You can’t use that argument one way, you have to think about other people too.
And I’m not sure why you feel I’d go on a “rant” about political parties since none of this conversation has centered on that so far. Not everything has to be red vs blue you know
by NoleFrenzy on Jul 22, 2011 10:29 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'd like to see a poll on narrowing Tennessee Street for bus traffic done locally
And see just how many locals fall on which side of having their choices intruded upon; I think you’ll find that you’re significantly in the minority, as in all my years there I’ve never heard someone say “Ya know, I’d stop driving my car if those darn buses were just a little more accesible.” Then again, everyone else will just be wrong anyway because you know what’s best for them.
A Pessimist Complains About The Weather
An Optimist Waits For It To Change
A Realist Adjusts The Sails
Because people in Tallahassee don't know what a quality transportation system is like.
And this is not only about transportation. Pedestrian communities or much more beneficial to small businesses (requires more, smaller stores, – groceries, more restaurants, more pharmacies, etc) spread throughout an area.
Its not about removing choice. Its about removing the monopoly of required self transportation and making a balance of options so nearly anyone can desire to commute the way they want to. If you want to bike – traffic is slow enough to allow you to safely do that – if you want to ride a rail system – density is high enough to allow you to do that – if you want to buy an apartment one block away from an office complex – you can do that.
Its about balancing the community to allow for a multitude of options.
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
This called the slippery slope fallacy.
Just because you take a step closer to the cliff doesn’t by necessity mean your going to take a running jump.
Q: What’s your favorite pre-game ritual?
A: Well, I take a doodoo. Before every game I doodoo.
Florida's Ja'Juan Story in an actual interview.
by 4-3ZoneShell on Jul 22, 2011 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions
This *is called
Dammit this board needs an edit feature.
Q: What’s your favorite pre-game ritual?
A: Well, I take a doodoo. Before every game I doodoo.
Florida's Ja'Juan Story in an actual interview.
by 4-3ZoneShell on Jul 22, 2011 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions
bingo
choice is the key. when you allow people to have their own choices, the group will inevitably choose the option that works the best for them. since Tennessee cant really get any bigger, traffic will redirect to another street (as it already does on gameday). that is a choice as well. it would be nice to have an interstate extension that runs into downtown, but that ship has sailed long ago.
and we dont need “credentials in urban design” to understand that this is a bad idea. common sense tends to take care of that. and the whole “i am above you because i see the bigger picture, and if you would just let me do it you will see how great it is” attitude is really off-putting. urban design is a nice way of saying “you idiots messed up the town, and we are going to fix it for you”. dont treat people like children and tell them what to do. its insulting to say the least, and its a profound misunderstanding of how to govern. choices and incentives work, force never does.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
I think the plan is a reasonable example
of incentives and choices. I’ve already explained below how those incentives would work to help mobility along the corridor. I also don’t see how the plan eliminates the ability for people to choose.
you havent incentivised or added a single choice
people can still take the bus or ride a bike. the bike is best used on a smaller road that runs directly parallel to the major roads, and the buses run everywhere right now.
and there is no incentive here, just a forced choice: wait in traffic for twice as long or more (because you cut the number of lanes in half), or take public transportation. both of these options exist, but only one of those will make the city any more money.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
How is the ability to not sit in traffic not an incentive to take the bus?
Also, cutting the lanes from 6 to 4 isn’t quite “in half.”
Lastly, the city loses money on transit. Adding more transit means spending more money. Filling existing capacity at least cuts waste. The city would never make profits from people riding the bus.
again, this is a *forced* choice, not an incentive
you have made it inconvenient for people to do what they want, instead of making something more appealing. the latter in an incentive, and the former is force.
and the city can make money from people riding the bus if they fill the buses routinely. when you run a bus with 8 people, it tends to lose money. but what happens when you magically increase demand? thats right, fuller buses and a more efficient form of transportation.
and where is Tennessee 6 lanes? i count 4 with a turning lane the whole way through.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Tennesse is 6 lanes from Monroe to Ocala
which is where this plan would be implemented. I think that the bus would sound more appealing if it didn’t have to sit in traffic with cars. Incentive.
again, you dont understand what an incentive is
and while the lanes mean it wont double the time in traffic, it would still increase it by 1/3 (in theory). there is no way decreasing lanes will increase traffic flow.
but i am done trying to explain how forcing someone to do something they would not ordinarily do is not the same as giving someone a better option. incentives are positives because they make a choice more appealing; they are not negatives that make a choice less appealing to elevate another.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
I disagree that this plan would actually force anyone to do anything
I think that is where we are having the problem. Incentives don’t always have to be flowers and puppies. Call it a disincentive to drive if you want, but it’s not forcing anything. A disincentive is like an incentive but the opposite. I’m sorry if you had trouble understanding because of my word choice.
In regard to capacity and traffic flow, please see my post below.
by Sillence on Jul 21, 2011 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
you can disagree, but you are wrong
sorry to have to be so blunt, but you cannot honestly argue that restricting someone’s options in order to make them (or “encourage”) to do something else isnt using force.
and incentive is always a positive. if you give your kid a candy bar for a good grade, that is an incentive. if you spank them for a bad one, in order to convince them to make better grades, that is not an incentive. you havent encouraged an idea, you have discouraged another. the difference is that, in this metaphor, there is a good side and a bad side. in real life, only the people trying to remove options think restricting people’s driving is a good option and letting them drive is a bad option. the demand clearly says otherwise.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
You can use your same logic to support this plan
by NOT offering me viable options outside of driving, you are taking away my choice. You are forcing me to drive.
How come it’s only force when it’s against your opinion? Works both ways.
by NoleFrenzy on Jul 21, 2011 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
if the city wants to offer a viable bus system, i am all ears
but since it currently sucks, i am guessing it is a combination of lack of demand and poor planning. but it is clearly an option, as the bus system in Tallahassee exists, and has a lot of destinations within the city. people just dont want to use it because a car is a better option. nobody is forcing you to drive when the bus is right there in front of you.
forcing you to drive? come now sir, that is just absurd.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Do you know anything about Nova 2010?
This is a valid question, it’s just because I’m curious.
You just said yourself it sucks
so people drive. If it didn’t suck, people wouldn’t drive.
And it’s just as absurd as you saying you’re being forced to ride the bus. You just don’t like your logic used against your opinion. Apparently it’s only valid when it validates YOUR argument.
Because MY money is used to subsidize your option, and that's the difference.
Versus the status quo, my option, already being in place and not costing a dime to change.
A Pessimist Complains About The Weather
An Optimist Waits For It To Change
A Realist Adjusts The Sails
My tax money doesn't pay for
Roads, stop lights, traffic enforcement, highway maintenance, drainage systems for massive roads, etc?
Interesting, I wonder where they get all the money to do that stuff?
Bus passes ain’t free you know, it’s not like it’s a hand out. In Chicago they’re something like $80 a month. That’s money people work hard to earn.
by NoleFrenzy on Jul 22, 2011 10:35 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
They're still subsidized HEAVILY
And all of the stuff you listed above, sans traffic enforcement, applies to them the same. They bleed more money from public coffers in the name of being green/efficient/whatever this week’s excuse is.
A Pessimist Complains About The Weather
An Optimist Waits For It To Change
A Realist Adjusts The Sails
All Transportation options are subsidized heavily
Roads Highways are all money losers they bleed money from the coffers as you would like to say. The overall negative economic impact of traffic is in the billions out here in LA alone.
The Funk Phenomenon.
You could build...
…a world-class transit system in every major city in the country with all the subsidization of roads that goes on year after year.
This is my biggest problem with drivers (and I am one) — the hilariously oblivious sense of entitlement. Everybody’s a welfare queen but you.
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes
"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher
by Drew J Jones on Jul 22, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
You are wrong. Car drivers PAY for their roads, thank you.
What do you think the car registration fees and gas taxes pay for?
And there are that many roads because that’s how people like to get around. Amazingly enough, when left to their own devices, people want to be able to travel freely without having to rely on other people.
Try knowing some facts before you spout next time.
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
by Dogrel on Jul 22, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL
I know my facts just fine.
Care to take a stab at how much of the cost is covered by those things?
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes
"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher
by Drew J Jones on Jul 22, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Here ya go:
I don’t see the ‘09 and ’10 stats, but they’re probably even worse for your argument given the trend (since expenses have risen while gas tax revenue has likely declined as people have driven less in the last three years). Here are the 2008 revenues for highways.
Your vehicle and fuel taxes don’t even cover half the cost. Throw in tolls and other user fees, and you barely get above half. In 2011, they probably don’t make it to half.
So that’s about $90-100bn in subsidies and borrowing to close the budget.
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes
"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher
by Drew J Jones on Jul 22, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha.
I’d like to see a comparison between taxes paid by the average bus rider in Tally now and the average person who registers and drives their own car. Wonder which one contributes more from their own salary, and which one’s salary (or lack thereof) is further subsidized by the rest of us (including bus ticket $$). I rode the buses as a broke college student my first two years at FSU without a car, so I’m VERY familiar with the ridership, and could give you a pretty simple prediction on this one…..
A Pessimist Complains About The Weather
An Optimist Waits For It To Change
A Realist Adjusts The Sails
You're also
assumeing that people only pay into one side. I’m sure there are plenty who pay into both. Not that I disagree with your overall premise here.
If there really is demand for a bus system, the city won't need to pay for it.
There were private bus services in many major cities well before the public transit lines because it was profitable to run them.
Unsurprisingly, they all went out of business when the city governments decided to start their own public transit services and didn’t have to turn a profit to stay functional.
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
Alright
I tried giving you that an incentive was positive and disincentive was negative. Neither are force. Nothing is being forced. It is simply a disincentive to drive.
a "disincentive" means you are restricting choices
that is force, plain and simple. if i blackmail you and make you do something, i forced you to do it because i made the alternative unpleasant. i didnt give you an incentive.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
It's no different than an incentive
That’s the same as saying that if I gave you $100,000,000 to end this argument I’d be restricting your choices and forcing you.
by Sillence on Jul 21, 2011 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Tell him to say it with you.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
Actually, no. You see, the mob calls it "hush money."
And accepting it is an exchange freely entered into. A contract, in other words.
The nature of contracts presupposes free choice, meaning the choice to refuse is retained. You can still choose to talk, if you wish, and take your chances of being kidnapped you and thrown into the river with rocks in your pockets and your hands tied behind you.
If you are removing lanes from roads, you are removing the right to travel on those lanes. He did not choose not to travel in those lanes, so there is no free choice, only oppression.
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
So you are not free to
still drive on the other two lanes? By providing the option to have a bike bus lane am I permanently preventing you from being able to drive whatsoever? In fact its providing you the choice to drive, bus or bike whereas now the only reliable semi safe option is to drive.
Just out of curiosity
And I apologize if this has been asked/answered already, but what is the push for this? Have there been a lot of biking accidents/deaths recently involving vehicles? When I was at FSU 10 years ago, there were buses and they seemed fine. Just curious if there was some event(s) that’s pushing this.
From what I understand
and I’m not in tally not am I an urban planner (although I date one and am friends with a lot of them), Tallahassee has a master plan to reduce the number of automobiles coming in. Its a beautification/ transportation efficiency project slated to go on for a long period of time. By enabling alternate means of transportation and creating them such that they can be reliable, people will likely choose the easiest method of transportation. Slowing down drivers on Tenn St creates a much safer environment for both pedistrians/cyclists and drivers. The only real con here is the camp that is going to get frustrated by adding another 5-10 mins of traffic during the normal drive, but if that frustation leads to people seeking other forms of transportation then the city is happy because the total amount of vehicles goes down and the efficiency of transportation goes up.
That's not the only consequence of plans like these
Reducing traffic on main roads is only the thing you can see.
What you can’t see is that the same number of people still need to get to work every day. Yet meanwhile, you’ve made it more of a hassle to take the main roads.
So what’s a commuter to do? Easy: He’s going to be smart and take a less congested route.
Most likely, he’ll find a route that takes him over local neighborhood surface roads. So you’re transferring that traffic from one wide road onto many narrow roads. Roads that aren’t designed to handle the load of the heavier amount of traffic they’re going to see.
So the wear and tear and traffic doesn’t get better, it actually gets worse as more traffic flows onto roads that were not designed to handle them and those roads start backing up and breaking down earlier.
As another unintended consequence, those small roads are locally maintained, as opposed to the major roads in Tallahassee, which are US Highways and for which we receive Federal Highway funding to maintain them.
The net result of all of this is that the city will spend more money for the same amount of people to go to work less efficiently, and will cause more problems than if it had sat on its hands and done absolutely nothing
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
Thats your personal opinion
It could very well be that people find riding the bus system to be reliable and move toward a desired outcome of riding the bus becoming more efficient…
Tallahassee has had 'city planners'
they’re “Traffic Engineers”. whose only job is to divert traffic in efficient manners. However road construction could never keep up with consumer demand as people saw driving as a an easier and easier option. Many cities in the US and the South have only ever had traffic engineers. Not Urban Designers as City planners.
And your assumption of superiority is completely on your side. I do not profess to know your job, I only know mine. And those are my credentials. Changing the subjects to “the wounded” is just that. Changing the subject.
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
by harper.rb on Jul 21, 2011 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
changing the subject to the wounded? huh?
and traffic engineers dont plan the city, they react to demand. those are two totally different things. you can argue that they have done a poor job reacting, but that doesnt make them city planners.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Completely false.
and traffic engineers dont plan the city, they react to demand
I hate transportation engineering—it’s by far the worst specialty within my field—because it’s completely mundane, boring, traffic study after traffic study of various urban layouts and supporting roadway systems…………so you can plan your project. Planning is 99% of transportation engineering. Future growth and development is 99% of what you plan for, i.e. the whole purpose of the plan is to meet anticipated demand, not react to it. I’m no urban development expert, but the transportation network—how you’re going to provide means and paths to move people and goods throughout the urban area—is a huge part of it.
Better known as Dr. Kenneth Noisewater.
by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Jul 22, 2011 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions
These are just a funny remarks.
when you allow people to have their own choices, the group will inevitably choose the option that works the best for them.
common sense tends to take care of that.
If people, who were not at all learned in city and traffic planning disciplines were so good at choosing the best option, why does a traffic problem exist? People always say, “Common sense isn’t common.”
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
you dont need a degree to understand convenience
and the resident urban planner understands that as well, since he knows that making driving less convenient means more people will take the bus. problems cannot be removed, because people have the ability to choose (right or wrong). sometimes they choose wrong. but over time, the group will largely migrate toward the best option.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
I think you're making assumptions that you can't prove are true.
How do you propose the city reduce urban sprawl and traffic congestion?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
what false assumption have i made?
the principle is called spontaneous order, and it works. trying to force people into one option, however, always has unintended consequences and pisses people off.
and you cant reduce urban sprawl, nor should you. people have a right to live where they want. if everyone could afford to live downtown, they would do it, and there would be stores to get their business. everyone could walk to work and to the store. but things dont work that way in real life – you have a finite amount of space that a large number of people want, which means most people are priced out of the market, forcing them further out.
as for reducing traffic congestion, i am not an expert, so i cannot say what would definitely work in Tallahassee. but i know that reducing lanes and attempting to force people to ride the bus or walk will not work. central planning never works.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
What do you have to be to be an expert?
I believe that reducing lanes will increase capacity because I am particularly knowledgeable on the subject.
The one thing I have trouble with is how anyone is being forced to do anything here. Traffic is bad, this is a plan to make it better. What is your suggestion?
my plan is simple, and it doesnt involve a detailed framework for the next 30 years
continue with the roads as they are. dont expand them, dont remove lanes. there is no more room to expand Tennessee, Gaines, Monroe, or many other major roads for the most part, so they would remain the same. as traffic increases with population increases or people moving out of town, you allow people to choose what option suits them best. if they are willing to wait in traffic instead of taking the bus, let them. that means it is a more preferable option for them, and forcing them onto the bus will not mean they are happier. if more people choose to ride the bus, they will be paying their way into a more robust bus system. if the roads become too congested to contain buses and cars, that would be the time to invest in a subway or let cabs take over like they did in NYC.
is that a sufficient outline to explain my counter-argument?
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
That's actually a great argument for the status-quo.
And a valid stance on the topic. At this point I simply believe that the city is ready for the plan. I respect that you do not.
The main difference in your view is that you do not see traffic-jams and endless redlights and idling cars as a negative.
That, that is “okay.”
Well, for too many, ‘that’ is not an “okay” solution. In the end, it is the people who want to be a part of a solution that dedicate their life to the cause. So, yeah. People in city-planning and urban design, generally see endless waste (congested and clogged traffic) an issue warrant an answer. And it really is much more than this. Its about the welfare of society. No one wants to sit in traffic and given a quality and efficient mass transportation system, many would choose otherwise. but you can’t just say, “make it happen.” There is a process. And this is a step in the right direction.
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
i dont like it, but clearly the large population of Tallahassee doesnt mind it so much
at least not enough to use the alternative, i.e. the bus. when people get fed up with traffic and start taking the bus more often, there will be a good reason to increase the routes the bus takes and the number of buses it uses. but cutting into a busy area to make a dedicated bus lane will not make people ride the bus. at least not enough to cause the perceived decrease in traffic.
i respect that you see a good answer for the problem, and i think it can be effective – just not yet. nobody was rushing to make a battery for a hybrid car before they became popular, but now that they are, it is a good idea. you can plan it out right now, but implementation will have to wait until people actually demand it. until then, you are telling people “i know what you want better than you do”, and that is not the way to be successful. it ends up with empty buses and worse traffic jams, and people resent you for funneling them into a smaller area while they look at the wide open bus lane.
essentially, if you could add a bus lane, it might be feasible. i think it would be much cheaper to just run the bus on the street one block up during heavy traffic times, which would move the bus through the route faster and accomodate more riders, but the riders arent there to justify the extra cost of another bus running that route at the moment.
i dont think planning is a bad idea; who would be against planning ahead? the problem comes in when that plan involves pushing people to do things the way you think they should go. if it is truly the best option, advertise it, and let people decide for themselves. if you can prove that commute time on the bus is shorter than in the car, use that in your ads and people might take you up on that offer. it would definitely decrease traffic, which means the new bus riders and the drivers both win. but you cant make driving so difficult that you force people to ride the bus.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
So according to your logic
the reason millions of people aren’t driving Chevy Volts isn’t because of the inconvenient cost of the Volt, but because there’s no demand for it.
But we know, that there is a demand, and once prices drop (as they have on hybrids), more people will drive them. Same goes for buses. People don’t use them because they’re inconvenient in their current state. When they are made more accessible, more people will use them.
I am a bit late jumping in
and actually, Im not really even staying on topic but I have a problem with the theme Im picking up in this post.
i respect that you see a good answer for the problem, and i think it can be effective – just not yet. nobody was rushing to make a battery for a hybrid car before they became popular, but now that they are, it is a good idea.
Are you implying that its only good to work on an alternative once its a glaring problem? Maybe Im misunderstanding, but if that in any way is your mentality, I have to respectfully disagree.
I think there is something to be said about picking a course of action that might sting a bit in the short term to avoid a much bigger solution down the road that hurts a whole helluva lot more.
Not to give a ton of credit to China, but I happen to respect their way of thinking in certain aspects. Its been said that America thinks 50 years in advance, while countries in Asia think 300. Now while there is a bit of hyperbole to that, the point is I think you are being incredibly short sighted.
"However, I say, let UM burn." -onebarrelrum
Do they now?
And to stray even further off topic, do you realize how they’re planning on using the huge excess of young men that their one-child only policy has created? Hint: it’s not to build roads.
Not to say Tallahassee City Hall is China, but a bad example to bring up IMO.
by Nolesos Locos on Jul 22, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
In hindsight
I should have avoided cherry picking. I do think the underlying point is correct though, extremely short sighted. But I can man up and admit I shouldnt have gone in that direction.
"However, I say, let UM burn." -onebarrelrum
Actually Being a resident of China
no one cares about the policy and will pay a fine. Many rich people do this. And the poor people just give their children to their relatives to avoid a fine.
Children are the “social security” of China as there is no retirement, so the people dont give a damn about a penalty.
Your point valid as most people only understand China with what they read in the newspapers.
Now, the cost of a 70-year lease for a house/apartment with no land rights and the cost of 20-50,000 RMB per M2 is scary for the future.
In Korea they give incentives to have children.
Not to stray too far from the topic…….
by LincolnHighNole on Jul 22, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Because the city is trying to curb urban sprawl and reduce traffic.
I don’t know if this project does that but the city’s objective is the right one.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
Because that thinking has left us with an unsustainable, massive headache inducing culture of suburban sprawl
throughout the country, and it’s especially bad in the Southeast. Basically, it’s exactly the reason Tennessee St. is such a pain today. Everybody has to drive, because there’s no other option
by NoleFrenzy on Jul 21, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
there could be options, but people dont want them
if there was a demand for a large-scale mass transit system, it would exist. otherwise, you have to believe there is some nefarious plan to stop it from expanding. its the same reason Amtrak routinely runs in the red: this isnt Europe, the demand for trains just isnt there (not to mention that it isnt run efficiently).
and this isnt to knock mass transit. i love the DC Metro. i think there is definitely demand for it, and it seems to be run very well. the metro runs out to parking garages on interstate exits (which is genius), and it runs through the parts of town that use it. but this only works because there is a demand for it, not because it is a great idea.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
because there are too many people in a small area at all times
Tallahassee does not have that problem.
people literally drive 2+ hours to work in DC, which means a massive amount of traffic in and out of an already densely populated area. the Metro alleviates some of this congestion by having a dedicated rail system in the middle of the interstate (which, by the way, is 4-5 lanes wide on both sides) so it doesnt interrupt the traffic flow. this proposal in Tallahassee would not encourage bus ridership, it would just make a parallel road to Tennessee busier.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
3 major reasons.
1. Density = potential ridership. Easy.
2. Available options. Driving in DC is terrible. Parking is easy, but driving sucks. So available density ridership is now, people who can’t afford a car + people who don’t want to drive. If you make driving expensive you get in the Seattle area. Now you have a factor of available density ridership + people too poor to own a car + people too poor to afford to drive their car + people who don’t want to drive.
3. Quality of Transportation: People don’t want to ride in a crappy system. Tallahassee, you wait 30 minutes for about any bus anywhere. Seattle, its 10-15 minutes for all morning and evening routes, 30 minutes for mid-day neighborhood stops, and 5-10 minutes for downtown routes + they offer free routes in the downtown area.
3.a Where does quality come from? Investment. Why do people invest in the public transportation? Because people want to ride it. Why do people want to ride it in the first place? See 1. and 2.
3b. So how do we get people to ride public transportation? Restrict options. Most cities that have good public transportation have historic restrictions on options. 3b1. Old communities. Before the 1950’s and commuter engineering, larger communities were restricted horizontally, so people built up with narrow roads not fit for mass commuter traffic, which later in mid-century, incentivized mass transportation. 3b2. Geographic restrictions. Certain areas, like Seattle/ San Francisco, Manhattan have geographical restrictions on available land, making large roads extremely expensive (per sq ft). Also making building up a favorable option: it was cheaper to build a 2 story building than 2 – 1 story buildings. So density increased (see #1). 3b3. Design. Some fast growing cities outside of the culture of cars, decided that predetermining an systematic organization of people based on mass transportation, would be in effect a much more elegant solution than clogged traffic lanes provided by the US.
So, What do we do with this? We’ve learned that other cities, generally outside the US, has seen what happened to the US in the 80s and 90s. And determined they didn’t want that and designed around it. So now, only in the 2000s after determining that road construction could not keep up with car demand and as provided by another poster below, traffic engineering theory was inherently flawed, many US cities have adopted a international standard of controlled city planning based on mass transit. Do do this, you must, restrict options and build density: in the long run the community will develop the demand for mass transit which will bring the investment, which makes mass transit good.
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
by harper.rb on Jul 21, 2011 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
and this is the fundamental problem with your argument
So how do we get people to ride public transportation? Restrict options.
i resent being forced into your idea of a good option. thats not what free market choices are about. if you want to do it, go for it. i would rather drive, since it is more convenient for me. you want me to have to pay into your public transportation system to make it better for you.
you have put the cart before the horse and assumed that if the buses are great, people will want to ride them. that is a fundamentally absurd argument that does not take into account that people choose based on convenience. making someone’s life less convenient to push them onto the bus means you made their life harder, not easier. and i would prefer my life to be easier, thank you very much.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
You're forcing me to drive by being against better bus systems.
You’re making my life more difficult.
Your argument works both ways, dude.
no it doesnt
does the bus really need its own lane? would that make it run so much faster that people will want to use it? would it make the bus nicer?
the bus already exists, and it runs just fine. you can choose to use it, or not – that is your choice. it just so happens that driving will make your life easier at the moment. if demand is “forcing” you to do something more convenient, then i guess that is just a convenience you will have to live with. sorry your commute was faster and cheaper.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Yes, a dedicated bus lane makes the bus run more efficiently. Absolutely
Driving will make your life easier because our infrastructure is set up to cater to cars and not public transit. If it were the other way around, than taking public transit would make your life easier.
Like it or not, our system as it stands today is just not sustainable. Sooner or later, we won’t be able to suck oil out of the ground fast enough to meet the demand, and when that happens, there’s going to be some BIG trouble.
Making the infrastructure favor public transit will move us away from this very real problem.
As a person who actually lives in DC, I have to quibble with a couple points you raised.
A. Anyone who says that “parking is easy” in DC needs to have their head examined. You are correct about the driving, though.
2. You could theoretically say that quality comes from investment, yet the DC metro system has never once been profitable in its entire existence, and is now breaking under the strain of sustained ridership despite the amount of money being poured into the system. In the past year or so, rates have been increased for both metro and the bus system twice. They are working on repairs/replacing old or aging cars, but that’s about the extent of it. There are plans to build an entire new line going from MD to VA to offset the need to go through DC (billions in cost), but it is currently bogged down in negotiations between the states and NO MONEY has been allocated towards its construction, despite the fact that urban planners and developers are now including it as a selling point.
In my opinion, the primary problem with WMATA is that it is a public entity, complete with unionization of its employees, but that’s a whole other discussion.
In theory you are correct, but it is entirely circumstantial. A city like Tallahassee would probably benefit from more investment in public transit in the form of more/nicer buses, and more drivers of said buses. That’s about the extent of it. A city like DC, however, which is far denser and has a slightly larger variety of public transit choices, would not necessarily benefit from MORE investment than there already is, which is quite a bit.
D. I got nothin’, but I’m just maintaining the format we use.
I'd imagine demand exists because a system was implemented that met their needs.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
There's not a demand because people don't realize it can happen, I think
those of us who grew up in the South don’t know anything except for driving places. Sometimes we all need a little push in the right direction.
And not to open up the can of worms on fossil fuels and peak oil, but the system as it exists now just ain’t gonna work forever.
nah, no demand because driving is more reliable
if the city expanded to be so dense that driving wasnt feasible, people would be more apt to use public transportation. the reason the south drives more is because they can. this isnt NYC, where space is limited and taking (or even owning) a car is more headache than it is worth. things naturally progressed that way, and now the best options are the subway and cabs.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
But there's a reason the South is built that way, and it's not because "we like it"
Cities in the South grew up in the era of automobiles. NYC did not. So cities in the South are sprawled out. Now there’s no other option.
the option is to stop moving to the suburbs.....
americans need to stop thinking they need 20 acres and a white picket fence, stop believing the city is dirty and they will get car jacked..
Never work Retail!!!!!!
by phi*tau-nole on Jul 21, 2011 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions
people dont live in the suburbs because they require a huge property
for the most part, they do it because it is a cheaper option. they can get a nicer house for less money, and all they have to do is drive. when the areas closer to town stop being more expensive (which will not happen until they turn to crap, because of high demand that results in higher property values), people will move further in. it happens now, so it isnt some imaginary solution. “if you build it they will come”, however, only works in baseball movies.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
If you build it, HE will come.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
sure there is, it will just take time to keep up
the DC metro area has plenty of commuters from way far out, as well as a public transportation system. the two co-exist just fine. and if people get tired of driving, they can choose to take the Metro.
the south was built on sprawling amounts of land, and many places are finding that they have to do things differently to fit their needs. but to attempt to start something before the demand is there is a recipe for disaster and wasted money. you can anticipate when it will happen and try to plan for it, but you cant force the issue.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
People will continue with the status quo
If they’re never presented with an option, there won’t be demand for it, because people can’t see the benefits.
You think there was demand for Colombian Fast Food in Tallahassee before Super Perros opened? Doubtful. But they opened and people realized it was damn tasty, and now they do well.
Demand doesn’t have to proceed investment.
please take an economics class, and not from a Marxist
Demand doesn’t have to proceed investment.
this is so profoundly wrong.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Really?
So there was a high demand for SatCom before the government invested in the space program and discovered it?
Amazing that people could demand something they couldn’t even fathom could exist.
And I’m willing to bet your assumption that there is no demand is patently false. I bet a large number of people would say they would drive less if there were viable, convenient public transit options.
ok, one at a time
satellites happened because a new market opened up, and people used it to their advantage. it was an unintended consequence of space travel, not an investment to drive demand.
and there is demand for the bus: some people ride it now. but there is not enough demand to justify a separate bus lane.
how would you make the bus more convenient? why dont people who live near a bus stop all take the bus, or even mostly take it? hint: it isnt because they dont go all around downtown, its because a car works better right now.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
but WHY does it work better
because the system is set up FOR CARS. If it was set up FOR BUSES, more people would prefer them.
People do want them
But due to current restraints in tallahassee through people such as potentially yourself, it makes it extremely difficult to provide mass transit in an urban sprawl environment
what restraints?
and what have i done to make driving a better option than the bus?
if people dont take the bus, it isnt because somebody stopped them or made it more difficult, its because their car is easier. when that is no longer the case, more people will ride the bus.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
If you didn't live ten miles away from work
it would be easier to have a more reliable bus system. If people didn’t want to sprawl outwards but rather live in more dense mixed use communities then buses would easily be more feasible. See DC, Chicago, and NYC as an example. When you choose to spread out it makes for a more difficult attempt to create reliable mass transit.
if people dont take the bus, it isnt because somebody stopped them or made it more difficult, its because their car is easier. when that is no longer the case, more people will ride the bus.This is EXACTLY what Tallahassee is trying to do.
Oh, for Christ's sake.
Stop pretending that your taste is the same as everybody else’s. You can live wherever you want to live. Nobody’s going to take your precious little suburbs away from you. But that doesn’t mean the whole city has to be designed around your personal taste. Many of us who actually live here are pleased to see the city giving us better options (walkability and redevelopment on Gaines Street, for example).
Even setting aside the fact that it’s (1) a pilot project and (2) likely wouldn’t apply on game days, if you’re worried about traffic on Tennessee Street, I have a solution: Don’t use Tennessee Street. You can drive down to the south side and take one of the N-S streets up to Pensacola or Park. Park on the east side of campus or at the TLCCC, and walk to the stadium.
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes
"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher
by Drew J Jones on Jul 22, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
that doesnt work in the south
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'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 3rd in offense, 107th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)
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by Bud Elliott on Jul 21, 2011 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It can. The problem is that traffic engineers got to cities before urban designers.
the car revolution + cheap land + booming economy + false american dream of suburbia resulted in a mass of absolute chaos of traffic today.
The south has two problems with density. Lack of geographical limitations which has led to the second, sprawling growth. It can happen, but it is a 20-30-40 years of planning and organizing that will require this. Most people don’t think in this scale of time, and think that the only way it can be is the way it is now. Which is not the case.
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
by harper.rb on Jul 21, 2011 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It is too hot. Anything that involves walking more than a few blocks or standing outside waiting for a bus in 90+ heat won’t work. You can’t go into work with your shirt soaked.
'11: Minimum Goal: Win 10 games again
'10: 7th in offense, 41st in defense. Division Champions. 10-4. (6-3)
'09: 3rd in offense, 107th in defense. 7-6 (4-4)
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by Bud Elliott on Jul 21, 2011 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Not true. For a few reasons.
1. I live in DC. Which was rated by weather.com as the 6th hottest city in the US, as I type right now it weather.com says “it feels like 109 degrees” at 7:35 pm. But there are a number of very walkable communities that are extremely active right now. Bethesda, MD, Columbia Heights, DC, Silver Spring, MD to a degree, to name a few. Savannah is walk able, Charleston, parts of ATL. Miami. A healthy developed core can support more people, therefor have more investment, afford more accomidations that are shared by greater numbers of people (covered walkways, fountains) and have less paved roads that retain, and release stored heat throughout the night.
2. When you have to cross 6 lanes of W Tennessee, no one wants to do that at 80 degrees, 70 degrees, ever. A huge road like that only prevents anyone from walking anywhere. Reducing Tennessee would make crossing to FSU from French town much easier and make that area more appealing to students, investors, developers. Etc.
And really, if you had the opportunity to walk from your dorm on FSU campus to a stacked dept Store on the newly developed north side of W Tennessee, or drive 3 miles, thru traffic, stop lights and parking lots at the wal mart down the road. It ends up being an easy decision.
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
by harper.rb on Jul 21, 2011 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
rec'd for dropping a knowledge bomb on Bud
I would much rather have a walkable Dense city. The reason LA is so frakked is because of the sprawl which is why adding another lane to the 405 won’t do jack to the traffic.
The Funk Phenomenon.
So people aren’t willing to cross a Tennessee St. that is 6 lanes of open traffic, but will cross a Tennessee St. that is 4 lanes of open traffic and 2 bus/bike lanes? Or are you envisioning something different than the proposal fsu44 discusses in the article?
I don’t see it as a huge difference.
4 lanes of traffic is much different then 6 lanes
The bike/bus lane isn’t going to be occupied nearly as much as a third lane in each direction is. Thus providing a SAFER ability to cross the road.
ive never had a problem crossing any road in tallahassee on foot
just press the button, wait for the beep and the little white dude on the sign…
by B-rod24 on Jul 22, 2011 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I want to believe you but you lose all credibility when you list Miami.
We have one of the worst public transportation systems that I’ve ever seen. Want to head to the airport and not pay $15 a day to park? Well then you can take a cab ($20-30 plus tip each way, and I live in Gables). Want to go to South Beach/Downtown and not drive home drunk? Take a cab! ($30-40, unless god forbid you live in Kendall, where it would be $50-70).
The only public transit is the metro rail, which is fantastic only if you live by Dadeland and want to go to downtown. If not, its completely useless.
If you were talking about Miami of Ohio, please disregard all of the above
I never said Miami had anything of a good public transportation system.
I was inferring that Miami, in a tropical system has a number of walk able communities.
Expensive car parking is a goal to create a quality public transit system. If car parking is cheap, everyone wants to drive. If car parking is expensive, the incentive is for mass transit. More riders on mass transit makes worthy of greater investment. Greater investment makes a better quality system.
In Seattle, you pay 8$/hr to park in a garage. In DC you pay .75$/hr. Seattle mass transit/bus system is very good and their car traffic outside of I-5 is not terrible, depending. DC has ridiculous bad traffic. It is too cheap to drive.
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
I've read some Yglesias articles about DC having way too cheap parking
He loves Density articles.
The Funk Phenomenon.
this is a perfect illustration of how there is no choice created, only one nudged into removal
Expensive car parking is a goal to create a quality public transit system. If car parking is cheap, everyone wants to drive. If car parking is expensive, the incentive is for mass transit. More riders on mass transit makes worthy of greater investment. Greater investment makes a better quality system.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
So you're saying smokers don't have the choice to buy cigarettes even though tobacco taxes have gone up?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
they have the choice, but they are not give a new choice
they are being pushed into not smoking by prohibitive taxes. many are choosing not to smoke, but not because they dont want to do it anymore – because they can no longer afford it, which means you have removed the choice, not added anything.
cards on the table, i cant stand smoke. i think its inconsiderate to smoke outside a building where people who do not choose to smoke are forced to walk through it. but the business owner should be the one to restrict people smoking around their building, not the government choosing it for everyone. if i dont like smelling smoke outside your business, i dont have to go in, and you lose money. that is the market telling you people dont like the way you do things.
let people “vote” with their wallets. if there is a demand for something, let them choose to spend their money. the influx of new money will bring in the revenue necessary to expand. this is a basic understand in everything but the government – if people arent buying, it means you need to change your product or change professions, it doesnt mean you should make more of your product and make people buy it.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
But then the store is losing the choice to cater to smokers
because the owner can’t afford to anymore! The market took the choice away anyway. Incentives can be good or bad.
they can cater to people that dont care and smokers, since they buy stuff too
that means if you want to smoke, you can go to the smokers’ places. if you dont, you dont have to go there. give people the choice to either go somewhere or not. forcing people not to smoke around a building by city ordinance is restricting their actions. letting a business decide for themselves means they live with the consequences. it also means they can establish a market that nobody else has. that is the market creating options, not taking anything away.
do you go to Chubby’s on a Saturday night and demand that they play country music? do you go to Stetsons and demand rap? of course not. both of them provide options, and you are free to choose which one you like. if nobody in town wants to go to the club that plays country or rap, it shuts down and stops wasting money.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Speaking of shutting down. Chubby's did awhile ago.
Check out the 2012 Recruiting Discussion Threads in the FanPost section
oops, dated myself there
how long ago?
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Well, I think at least the beginning of this year, probably beginning of fall 2010
Check out the 2012 Recruiting Discussion Threads in the FanPost section
I thought you meant the chicken finger place at first.
Gotta get dat chub sauce.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
lived next door to the owner.
Guy was a total mess. Really funny stories…
FSU Football, making bad teams look bad since 2010.
by onebarrelrum on Jul 22, 2011 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
In this case
You are free to ride your bike to work, you are free to ride the bus to work, or you are free to drive to work. The choice is yours. If it is easier to do one of the 3 then you take it. Sooner or later tallahassee is trying to make it so that the first two options are easier then the third.
There aren't any walkable communities in Miami either other than Brickell.
But your point is not lost on me. I am in favor of Tally taking a step into the 21st century. I loved my years there, but the area around school needs an overhaul
i would drive every time
from late april-october. It’s not fun being drenched in sweat while in public. Every other time and after sundown I would walk though.
A ton of students walk to campus and wait in the heat for the bus.
The city could always build covered bus stops and use solar powered fans within them if need be.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
students, yes
but i am not sweating in my dress clothes before i go to work. and i used to sweat walking around campus. it sucked, but i didnt mind because i was wearing shorts and a t-shirt.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
I don't think anyone's expected to walk or ride their bike several miles to work at a law office, hospital or the like.
But making public transportation more efficient and encouraging pedestrian traffic should help alleviate automobile traffic. Making the city more transportation friendly would seem to be a win-win for residents, businesses and universities alike.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
there are simple solutions
like you said, make public transportation more efficient. it doesnt run well as it is – i took the Star Metro in Tallahassee as a freshman, and it is routinely late or doesnt even show up at all. i would never bet my job on public transportation in Tallahassee being on time, but thats what you must do when taking the bus. if you take the earlier bus, it will put you at work anywhere from 45 minutes to 1.5 hours early, since there arent many buses run on the route. i would rather spend 10 minutes more in the car to get to work at a reasonable time (less than 15 minutes early) and have it in my own control.
the problem isnt people driving too much; they might consider public transportation if it didnt suck so badly.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
you dont actually read anything i say, do you?
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
This whole plan awknowledges that the current system is not efficient
and is trying to change that and fix it. Now you seem to want to prevent it from being more efficient
it makes driving much more difficult than making the bus more efficient
but again, how would a dedicated bus lane make the bus any better, or any more attractive to potential riders?
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
A dedicated bus lane would allow buses to pass congested traffic
which would make riding the bus much better.
I can back this up
Star Metro is extremely poorly run (from the top down) they’re under relatively new management after a lot of their leadership took jobs in public urban planning. Now they have no accountability at all. I have horror stories I could share.
Please share
I worked there for a year and I’d love for you tell us all about how a terrible organization it is. Tell us why they didn’t deserve the awards they won and why Nova 2010 was a horrible idea. Tell us how it could be run to meet your standards for a city transit agency.
they used to be great but have sucked for a couple years
I’ve had several complaints about drivers who start a route, go on a break with riders still on the bus, pull into a gas station to get food, then restart their route instead of resuming the route causing people to be 20-30 minutes late.
I’ve had several complaints about not just late buses, but buses that never show up.
I’ve had several complaints about buses skipping stops with passengers waiting.
Star Metro wont use the office provided in the University Center by FSU because that would allow us to keep a better eye on them.
Star Metro rarely, if ever, punishes a driver for doing the things I’ve mentioned above.
I know I have more stories but i can’t remember them right now.
I personally know of drivers being punished for much less
The cameras in the buses do work, and when a complaint is received, a supervisor will follow up and take disciplinary action.
I’ll admit that these things happen, and too frequently. But to say that the drivers never got punished is false.
The reason StarMetro won’t use the office in the University Center isn’t because that would allow someone to monitor them, it’s because it would be impossible to monitor them. StarMetro is responsible for all the campus routes, nobody at FSU is responsible. All the supervisors are at StarMetro headquarters on Appleyard or at the Plaza. These are the only place the drivers can legitimately take breaks.
None of these stories describe how it is poorly run from the top down, it’s just collection of anecdotes that indicate that individual drivers sometimes broke protocol. I also don’t know who you’re referring to regarding the management who left for public planning jobs.
I'm not trying to come across as a jerk
and I’m sorry if I am. It’s late and I tend to get defensive with topics that involve my (former) work. It’s far from a perfect organization but I think it’s getting better rather than worse, and I think Nova 2010 is a step in the right direction.
The moral of this thread for me is to learn to let people disagree with me regardless of what I think I know.
no, you've been fine
and I might be at fault for using broad terms with my experience. Just between 2009-2010 it hasn’t been great with Star Metro.
and there was a growing movement before budget cuts for FSU to not renew
their contract with Star Metro and seek alternative options.
One of the reasons it's so dang hot is because all the cities in the south are so sprawled out and covered in asphault
Atlanta is the perfect example. Literally 10 degrees hotter than surrounding areas at times during the summer. Weathermen constantly referring to “heat island”
90 degrees instead of 80 doesnt really solve the problem
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
That's a pretty big jump man
That’s almost a difference of Tallahassee in the Spring vs. Tallahassee in July.
but you still sweat like a whore in church before you have to go to work
that is not a good option for most people.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Not true...
I bike to work every day in 90+ heat…My coworkers all sit there and congratulate me as i cool off and have already started talk of converting something into a shower.
I think you need to spend some time outside of Alabama.
I see harper.rb’s already covered the obvious example of why that’s nonsense.
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes
"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher
by Drew J Jones on Jul 22, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I can't rec this enough
Amazing how many of you seem to think that the City of Tallahassee is going to make permanent transportation plans for at most 8 days in a year, when in fact it would benefit the community for the other 357
Gainesville Disagrees
The hippies running the People’s Republic of Gainesville have tried this. If you want to see how well that has worked out, try driving down Archer or University during rush hour. While urban design sounds nice it doesn’t work in Florida. People in Florida drive cars and will continue to – regardless of the state of public transportation.
Emailed
Shot Cherie an email, I might paste in here when I get home… Idiotic
FSU, home of the Bandit! Enough said!
Hotel Prices are horrible in Tally for game day weekends
As an alumn, in Atlanta, Fatherx3 ~ there is no way I’m going to pay close to or above $300 per night with a two night minimum. That’s the bottom line for me. That’s crazy! With tix that’s $1,000 before we eat a meal or watch a game.
No thanks
Supply and Demand my friend
Every hotel room in Tallahassee is already sold out for the Oklahoma game. I’ll probably rent out my couch.
That is a fantastic idea
I wonder how much I can make off of my spare room?
If you can't afford it or would prefer to watch the games in the comforts of your own home that's fine.
I don’t think anyone would get on your case about that. Just not sure what this has to do with Tennessee St? lol
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
I don't know what you guys are complaining about
I love driving down Gaines and being able to stick my hand out my window and poke the drivers in opposing traffic in the eyes.
We were all created to be Seminoles. This is why we bleed garnet and piss gold.
by NoleThruandThru on Jul 21, 2011 6:17 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The telephone poles on the north side of Gaines street
…that would on same side as The Warehouse and the old Haunted House.
There’s deep grooves in the wooden poles that run from near the bottom to 10 feet high. This is from years of large trucks scraping against them on narrow Gaines. True story.
I loved being in the center lane with a huge F-250 (or the equivalent) coming at me.
I think I wet myself a little each time.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
One of the worst displays of incomplete information, ever. Result = complete overreaction.
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
by harper.rb on Jul 21, 2011 6:36 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
the premise of this Opinion piece
Is that it is bad for fsu football, in terms of traffic and game experience.
While I’m skeptical that people will ride their bikes to work in the summer, the point isn’t to address the nuances of long term city traffic planning.
As I understand it, once public hearings occur, the lane reduction at least on a “trial” basis is imminent. If you have other info, please post it.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
by fsu44 on Jul 21, 2011 6:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
My other 'info' is my knowledge and experience of Urban Design.
BS ARCH, MS ARCH with a specialization in Urban Design. Current Project Manager for a construction company in the Capitol Hill District of Washington DC. I’ve done proposed projects for Gaines St, Jacksonville, Chicago, San Francisco, and DC; and I have also seen and briefed on both the greater Tallahassee area programme as well as the ever-going Gaines St/FAMU Way ‘project’.
This is not an arbitrary move to piss people off. It is a required step in a direction to increase the downtown population of tallahassee. Not to further frack off FSU fans attending games, but to create a community that is not reliant on the least efficient method of transportation to attend football games (cars). This community, would then more easily and in greater numbers attend FSU games = and in probably the greatest of hopes, give the opportunity for nearly anyone anywhere in the central Tallahassee area the ability to get to a game without the use of a car.
This is like a piece of road construction. A relatively short term delay for a long term better system; a very small part of a much larger plan. Except it happens to have a method of which is not readily intuitive. So the first reaction should be, “What’s the entire, long term plan?” not, “Holy fck, whats wrong with you people.” Deciding this step is “wrong” without knowing the mechanics of the entire plan, is just short-sighted.
But less selfish people than I have determined they’d like to spend their life trying to prevent Tallahassee from turning into a dead Jacksonville; and more like a Savannah/Charleston, or the Georgia Tech area of ATL. Good luck with that people.
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
by harper.rb on Jul 21, 2011 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
If your position is that it is good for fsu football in the long term
that’s fine. I think that point could be argued.
But you’ve pretty much admitted that in the short term, it it will be problematic. As I said before, I’m not looking to have a city planning debate.
Also, please try not to swear so much, I don’t want your posts to get deleted, but as this is a subject that borders on the political, tempers tend to get up, and then we have to start policing everything.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
This is a part of an extremely long term project that probably won't be completed before I retire in 30 years.
There is no telling what the conditions will be and the effects that it may or may not have on FSU football. But attempting to kill it before understanding the entirety of the plan, long-term, is again, short-sighted.
FSU football will be more successful for having a better Tallahassee, not a worse one.
I understand this is an ‘opinion piece’ but instead of trying to have an informed opinion, you’ve created a circus and a shouting match that limits the ability to discuss.
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
who doesnt want a better tallahassee
That’s like saying who doesn’t love free money. The devil is in the details.
In writing for a constituency, ie rabid fsu football fans, I opined that the gameday experience will suffer and attendance will be negatively impacted. I haven’t heard anything from you to rebut that point.
I’m trying to refrain on commenting on the master plan, since I don’t know enough about the specifics to give an informed opinion on that topic.
I understand you city plan for a living, but frankly your posts are coming off as a bit arrogant and condescending. There are plenty of people involved in development other than those in your profession. These are the people with money. I work with and represent many of them. In fact, one of the projects you will probably be soon applauding as a shining example of urban redevelopment and responsible land use in tallahassee is something I’ve helped papered.
I don’t think I’ve created a circus. It seems like you are just upset that people without your professional pedigree are interfering with the “experts”.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
by fsu44 on Jul 21, 2011 8:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Then you aren't reading dissenting comments.
I opined that the gameday experience will suffer and attendance will be negatively impacted. I haven’t heard anything from you to rebut that point.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
I have learned as an architect and urban designer.
A City planning Dept consists of economists, traffic engineers, and businessmen, and urban designers and many others. I am quite aware of this.
I think you talking to football people is fine about this, but what pains me is that you are only now saying, “since I don’t know enough about the specifics to give an informed opinion on that topic.” – which is exactly the topic at hand.
I have no problem with dissent and discussion. My issue at this point is faux-controversy without accurate information.
And yes, you happen to be talking about a passion of mine. If you talk to a passionate lawyer and tell him that law is crap and pointless and our society should not be one based on law but acts of arbitrary chaos, your spitting in his face. If you yourself have knowledge of law and societal-theory, you could have an intellectual discussion perhaps on the values of a society of law and a society of anarchy and respect each other for it. but you haven’t given me that chance here. Instead, I have to defend my values, because I believe in them and I have studied them, and I know them well.
So its not that I think I do it any better than anyone else, it not that I think I’m smarter than anyone else. Its that arbitrarily you have decided to attempt to kill something that you don’t even know what it does and your saying what I do is crap. Literally. That years of study, research, investigation were absolutely pointless and there is no reason that anyone trained for urban design should have a better idea what to do than the hum-drum construction laborer/electrician that – I used to be – could do. Well, I know for fact that is not true. There is a world out there that exists outside of intuition. That before people knew the earth was round, they had an intuition that it was flat. They were wrong. Deciding a proposed – pilot – project is wrong based on pure intuition and little to no fact is the same in my opinion.
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
by harper.rb on Jul 21, 2011 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
the issue here is you are only on one side of the argument
debating whether many laws are necessary, or right, has 2 sides in the legal community. debating whether a medical treatment is the most effective has multiple options. but debating whether urban planning is a good idea only has the urban planners and the rest of us. there is no expert on non-urban planning, so you appear to have the intellectual high ground.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
You could be a planner who disagrees
but it appears as though the people with particular knowledge are all on the same side in this case. Which should be telling.
well
there is no expert on non-urban planning, so you appear to have the intellectual high ground.
There are. They are called urban planners.
FSU Football, making bad teams look bad since 2010.
by onebarrelrum on Jul 21, 2011 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
an urban planner wants to *plan* the city, one way or another
how is that disagreeing with wanting to plan the city, exactly?
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
No. Anyone can read a law and have a discussion on the merits of the law. A lawyer might win the argument, but still, it can be a conversation.
All I ask, is understand what you are arguing against beyond its apparent face value. In the end whomever is the expert might disagree, or not, but that is a conversation that can be had with points. Not a “you are wrong; no you are wrong.”
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
He never once said it would be problematic for FSU game days.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
he compared it to a short term delay
I think I understand his point. Short term pain, big payoff at the end.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
by fsu44 on Jul 21, 2011 8:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Short term for your typical daily traffic, NOT for football games.
They do not follow the typical traffic patterns on gamedays. I know this has been mentioned numerous times in here but you don’t seem to be acknowledging this point.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
i dont think anyone knows
how they would treat the hypothetical lanes on gameday… maybe ill ask at the meeting.
Saying they will treat them the way they treat a certain way because that is what they have done in the past is a classic fallacy.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
by fsu44 on Jul 21, 2011 8:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
And the original premise and delivery of this thread deceptive, misleading or unsound in any respect?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
if there is already a plan
To deal with gameday traffic issues in connection with this pilot program, probably, if not, no.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
by fsu44 on Jul 21, 2011 11:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Thats what they said
about the flyover. It still seems like a disaster. The only thing that helped was increasing traffic lanes.
"Well, If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak." -Jayne Cobb
Flyover is a traffic engineer not a city planner.
City planning has had a revolution in the last 10 years in which traffic engineering has lost traction because they could not keep up with car demand. Now the new goal is to create a system in which people don’t want to drive and are happy with a quality transportation system. It works in many other places,
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
The flyover works great.
How bad would Thomasville and Cap. Cir. be without it?
Q: What’s your favorite pre-game ritual?
A: Well, I take a doodoo. Before every game I doodoo.
Florida's Ja'Juan Story in an actual interview.
by 4-3ZoneShell on Jul 22, 2011 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you should write a rebuttal.
I’d like to read it. They should both be front paged.
The Funk Phenomenon.
Don't think traffic is that bad on game day
Here is my route. Coming from Leesburg. 75-n 10-w exit 209a. 90-Mahan-Tennessee. S-Monroe, E-Jefferson-W Pensacola. Park at the Civic Center 7$, get a bus ticket 4$ round trip. But i show up 3hrs before kickoff. Takes me 30 minutes to get to I-10 after the game. Was surprised on how easy it was. Been to FSU games in Jax and Orlando. Traffic sucks real bad in Orlando. Anyway, my point is getting in and out of Tally on game day isn’t that bad.
Oh come on
you must be leaving in the 3rd quarter when we have already blown the Gators out.
"Well, If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak." -Jayne Cobb
Hey! Not nice! :-(
Editor at Alligator Army - The Florida Gators Blog
The Florida Gators - The most despised team in all of college football - Which is fantastic.
The plans also call for FAMU Way to be extended
By extending FAMU Way, any lost lanes from Gaines and Tennessee would be resolved. Also, the new-found ability to walk on Gaines St without being mugged will encourage more foot traffic within a mile radius of the stadium.
my sources tell me
That is a long way from being done. Doing the narrowing before accomodating the current traffic is backwards, imo. I might feel differently if famu ext was done.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
by fsu44 on Jul 21, 2011 7:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It is a long way from being done. Quite a ways, And not something I am in agreeemtn about.
but really a compromise. FAMU way will only create another barrier that will further segregate the lower income south Monroe side of Tallahassee from the Gaines st proposal. So rather than developing a mixed-opportunity district that brings together both lower income current occupants in a way that gives access to the facilities and increased land value to nearby long term residents., FAMU Way will cut off any connection between the existing Gaines St area into two zones: one a wealthy developed area for those of a certain class, and another significantly poorer area that has been completely cut off from any benefit associated with said development.
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
So you are saying
the North side of G street will be safer? By the way, you should know it is now G street, not Gaines street, G.
"Well, If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak." -Jayne Cobb
Safer? yes. But safety is not associated with income.
The most dangerous place in Rio de Janiero Brasil is the the Copacabana beach, where all the rich people are. Because the impoverished poor (who live in the hills) know where to get some money.
This area is a difficult situation with not great options. FAMU Way is a necessity, but its current proposal is poor for those who live on the south side of “G” street. Rather than improving their opportunities and reducing crime, it decreases opportunities and will most likely, decrease their opportunities, making for more desperate people.
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
No.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
Oh yes
They did- drive on down that way next time you are in town for a game. New signs say “G” street.
"Well, If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak." -Jayne Cobb
by Ponder This on Jul 21, 2011 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't the train tracks already geographically segregate the area?
Railroad Square is the only cultural component south of the tracks.
Yes they do. But the train track is not a constant stream of 1-way traffic that is difficult to cross.
But they are a problem. There have been numerous proposals on how to address this though; One of which is a enhanced path and footbridge leading from the south side of FSU campus through railroad square and into FAMU campus. In effect to make pedestrian/bike traffic from FAMU to FSU a viable and comfortable option. I used to bike to FAMU from the Tallahassee Mall. And really there is no viable or comfortable option.
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
I agree
A wise polish man once said: If you don't look out for #1, you get a hand full of #2
by PalmAireNole on Jul 22, 2011 1:57 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
One thing we can agree on is the picture chosen for the article
How great is it to look back and know that with 9:52 remaining in the first quarter, the Gator offense had made it’s last contribution to the game?
How about a Tennessee beautification project instead?
I haven’t looked into the specifics of the proposal so I’ll refrain from commenting on the lane reduction.
However, am I the only one who finds Tennessee street to be a complete eye sore for the city and university? Between the lafayette crackhouse hotel, multiple chicken finger joints, and auto-body repair shops it always leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This is a major artery not only for the city but also for our university since it frames and bookends the north side of campus. I can’t be the only one who is embarrassed that more efforts in the zoning/tax/landscape/ect. city departments haven’t addresses this.
I would imagine that's a long-term goal of the city's.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
Although it’s difficult to suppress a gut reaction of sickness at the thought Tennessee turning into another Gaines St. situation, particularly considering how rarely I witness actual construction on that crippled road, I’m trying to be rational. I would consider at least attending the meeting, but I have three pertinent questions, other than the proposed timeline:
1) Will a bike lane actually attract bikers? It certainly hasn’t on Call St. I would assume if biking were likely to be a popular option, we’d regularly see it on the sidewalk now? I can’t fathom riding a bike down Tennessee in its current state, but I understand reducing lanes might facilitate this. Still, I wonder if anyone has discussed the implications of building a bike lane across a strip of undergrad-oriented bars on a congested street where even sober drivers are often reckless. Am I the only person alarmed by this?
2) I must not understand the need for a bus lane properly. Does designating a separate lane for buses that already run down this street actually streamline the process and alleviate traffic congestion? I wouldn’t imagine operating only two lanes, rather than three lanes (one of which is occasionally slowed by bus stops) would improve the situation. Does a separate bus lane really encourage people to use a service that already exists? Would it somehow make routes more efficient, or would the service remain as it is now? The only incentive this would give to stop driving that’s immediately obvious to me would be frustration over worsening traffic. Frustration over the parking situation already motivated me to move within walking distance, but not everyone can do that. There must be reason for people to believe this will streamline traffic. Can anyone explain?
3) Are there areas elsewhere that additional lanes would be opened to provide space in the event that the seemingly optimistic notion that students will flock to public transportation proves incorrect?
good questions
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
by fsu44 on Jul 21, 2011 7:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The city's website says that if the effects are not positive than the changes will not be made permanent.
This is a pilot study they are proposing.
I thought the bike lanes got a decent amount of use when I lived on Chapel in 2004-2005. Why do you disagree? I don’t think they actually want to make the 3rd lane each way on Tenn a bike lane. Their site discusses incorporating bike lanes into other, less congested streets in the “mobility district”.
And your question about how this even makes the buses more efficient or reduces traffic is a good one. I didn’t understand that either.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
Certainly, people bike around campus, but I don’t imagine a renaissance of bicycling on Tennessee in part because I don’t notice that many cyclists on the sidewalk. Mainly, though, I think I’m not alone in that I wouldn’t feel safe biking down that road. I don’t know how the lanes would be set up, and the buffer of a bus lane would surely help, but it seems like such a hazardous area for a biking hub with the number of drunk drivers coming out of Bullwinkle’s and the nearby bars. It’s hard for me not to imagine serious injuries.
The question about bus efficiency seems like the heart of the issue, though. I think most of us would favor a pedestrian friendly downtown where people willingly relied more on efficient public transportation. The question is how a bus lane in an isolated section of town specifically facilitates this. What’s the new incentive to use an existing service? Does it improve the speed of transit significantly in an area with a speed limit of (I think) 35 mph imposed? Will this allow more frequent routes, or will they somehow be altered for efficiency? Although it doubled my commute, I preferred riding the bus when I lived down Appalachee, but it was rarely an option. As one of the 1,000+ FSU music students, rehearsals and evening engagements ran later than the Star Metro, preventing me from using it. It seems to me that factors discouraging students from riding the bus would be largely unaffected by isolating a lane, unless that dramatically increased the route speed, but I’m sure there must be information I don’t have.
by matt the bat on Jul 21, 2011 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, I think I missed the critical part of your post, setting up bike lanes on less congested streets. I’m sure that would be fine. I don’t know if it would make a huge difference, but then again, if we’re talking about less congested streets than Tennessee, it seems like a peripheral issue to what’s upsetting everyone anyway. I’m all for it if people aren’t getting mowed down and it doesn’t require them to tear up the half of town that isn’t already torn up.
by matt the bat on Jul 21, 2011 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Absolutely it would attract bikers
There is a bike group that every so often rides down Tennessee blocking 2 lanes of traffic to force drivers to realize we exist and take notice.
Congestion
A major rule of transportation planning is that congestion cannot be reduced. Drivers will take other routes, leave earlier or later, or use other modes of transportation if they don’t want to sit in traffic. Adding more lanes simply leads to these people instantly taking up this new capacity. The plan is meant to allow mobility along the Tennessee Street corridor in the future by increasing multi-modal capacity that is resistant to congestion.
Filling a lane with buses is significantly more efficient than filling it with cars. On gameday, a reasonable shuttle bus service would be able to move people more quickly than if Tennessee were widened to 10 lanes. Allowing buses their own lane to move freely means people can get in and out more easily. The argument that this would be bad for attendance is actually kind of backwards unless you feel the only option to travel to a football game is to drive there yourself.
yet another "green" failure
the only green i care about is money, because its how people make decisions about what best benefits them. the solution to a busy area isnt to make it harder to get through. whats the motive here? is it to make the city all nice and rainbows, and to save the planet? nope. the real motive is to force people to ride the bus, which makes the city more money. that sounds like the definition of corruption to me.
this is the south. we like the fact that we can take our cars where we want instead of riding the bus. most places dont have a train, and the bus is for poor people down here (for reference, i stopped riding the bus when i graduated and got a job, and i mostly only rode it around campus when i did). Atlanta has the MARTA and buses, and it still has multiple lanes everywhere (as many as 5 in midtown going one way). why? because we love the freedom to drive to work instead of relying on public transportation. it works for some people, it doesnt for others, but they have the choice.
this is Tallahassee FL, not NYC. it will never be a sprawling urban center; it will always be a college/government town. urban planning is another way of saying “i know what will make you happy better than you do”. the only thing that helps downtown areas prosper is gentrification, plain and simple. that happens because there is a profit motive. people choose to invest their money in something they believe will bring a return. the city should respond to the demands that follow, not dictate how they believe it should work.
i live in Columbia, SC (for the next week anyway), and they have wasted countless taxpayer dollars to make Main Street look more pedestrian-friendly and attract more businesses. the result? many businesses have closed because the construction and higher taxes drove them out of business. there has been no increase of people choosing to live downtown. the city tore up the changes and made new ones. guess what? same result, no improvement. all they did was put a nice facade on a street where nobody will use it. its as close to the proverbial “paying someone to dig a whole and fill it back up” as you can get. if i wanted the city to waste that kind of money, i would hope they would at least have something to show for it. we ended up with a couple of trees and a very expensive brick-lined median in the middle of the street that nobody uses and the cops park on. as if anyone would walk in the middle of the street…
you cannot drive demand by spending money to make things look the way you think they should look. you certainly cant solve the problem of a busy road by making it smaller and forcing people onto the bus system. yet this is exactly the frame of mind that goes into decisions like this one. if i still lived in Tallahassee, best believe i would be at that meeting and make my voice heard. the residents do not deserve to pay for this, and i will not be forced to pay to ride the bus when i want to go see a football game – not in a city of less than 200k people thats 3+ hours from any major city.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
by nole07 on Jul 21, 2011 7:39 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Nobody would be making you
ride the bus. If you want to drive there would still be two lanes in either direction. Forcing people to drive because that’s what you want to do isn’t any better, at least this plan provides alternatives. You seem to be economics savvy, do you think that the cost of re-striping and signing a 2.5 mile stretch of road would really cost more than not doing it? My time is valuable to me, I’d rather pay a few dollars to be able to move quickly through town than sit in progressively worsening traffic.
saying that this provides any alternatives is an absolute lie
there are no new options created here, just options made more difficult, in order to slowly remove your options and nudge you to the one the planners think is best. nobody is forced to drive anywhere, they choose it because they would rather do it. there are buses that run on gameday. if the city wants to make that change and make it more bus friendly, they can always block off a lane for buses for that day, which only costs them cones and police to direct traffic and is a temporary change for a temporary problem.
i dont understand the relevance of whether to re-stripe a road or not. nor is it even remotely true that decreasing the number of lanes will make your move more quickly through town. that assertion is just absurd. but if you would like to take a smaller, less busy road to get through town, feel free to choose any of the other small downtown streets that run parallel to Tennessee.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Decreasing the number of driving lanes
and using those lanes for alternative modes means actually leads to an increase in capacity, as a lot more people can ride in a bus than a few cars. That’s not absurd that’s math.
must...not...laugh...
you think that running buses through a lane (which would be empty most of the time, since there are only so many buses to keep up with demand) is going to increase capacity? you are predicating your opinion on people choosing not to drive, and to instead take the bus, which would (in theory) level out the number of drivers. but you underestimate how much people would rather drive. you will literally have to make driving nearly impossible for people to want to take the bus, which means you are removing an option to force your own idea onto other people. thats not a choice.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
this only works in a busy, densely populated area
Tallahassee is not even close to that.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Think long term, no present
Tallahassee is growing. It could be on the level of cities like Madison, WI or Orlando. A lack of foresight now will leave us more like Orlando and less like Madison 20 years from now (which is a very bad thing).
Tallahassee is not growing at that rate
not even close. Orlando has a big tourist draw (which creates jobs to support their spending), so it expanded as rapidly as Disney and Universal did. Tallahassee has FSU (which is cutting back on its classes), FAMU (an HBC isnt going to overtake the city, since only 12% of the population is black), and the state government isnt going to grow significantly. there is no incentive for people to move into Tallahassee en masse, so i see no reason it would expand like that.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
A previous poster mentioned that Tallahassee has added 60,00 residents in the last 20 years
If that same rate is maintained, we will be around the level of Madison and Orlando currently sit at
no way it grows like that
State and university jobs won’t expand at a fast enough rate.
The concept of the scale of development it would take to transform that area is simply massive. I don’t see the jobs to support it.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
by fsu44 on Jul 21, 2011 11:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Have you even seen the growth rate for Tallahassee throughout it's history?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
What sector is gonna grow to maintain that growth. Not state gov.
A wise polish man once said: If you don't look out for #1, you get a hand full of #2
by PalmAireNole on Jul 22, 2011 1:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't see the 50 year growth average as being relevant
Florida’s population isn’t growing the way it was. Immigration is the only thing that is going to save facilitate true growth.
Tallahassee numbers are skewed due to students being counted at school rather than at home. Student population isn’t going to support the kind of redevelopment on Tennessee that we are talking about. Students aren’t going to live in 1,000/month apartments/condos on the strip. If they would, we would have already built them.
State jobs on average don’t pay the kind of money to support the neo-urban lifestyle either
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
here is a graph showing the change in growth rates over time
Leon county has grown at a rate of roughly 1.4% per year for the last 10 years.
Not terrible, but not exactly explosive. I don’t see the state government adding jobs (nearly 100k from 2000 to 2010) the way they have been able to in the past.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
No. This completely incorrect and irrelevant.
Florida’s population IS growing the way it was. I am a demographer and I’m not going to spend as long as other nice people have trying to explain complicated concepts from educated and informed people that you refuse to either objectively listen to or are just bad at reading comprehension.
Jobs follow people and people follow jobs. They work in a mutually beneficial way that compound each other. You’re lack of understanding in the Tallahassee economy is very apparent. It is not just University and Government jobs. There is more to Tallahassee’s economy then that.
The Swami has spoken.
by seminole_swami on Jul 22, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Why don't you post what is wrong with that graph?
If the state government packed up and went to orlando, you don’t think the bottom would fall out of Tallahassee?
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
Please read my post right above yours
it outlines how congestion works. I do believe that a few buses driving freely will carry more people than a bunch of cars sitting still. I’d love to see evidence to the contrary.
sure
you assume people will choose to park their cars and ride the bus. they wont, because they havent. making one road busier will only serve to change their route, not make them take the bus. that means you will have approximately the same number of cars and buses running, with one gaping open lane where a bus should be. if we assume, for the sake of argument, that the bus is running at full capacity (when that isnt going to happen), you would have the same amount of congestion but with a wide open bus lane.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
They haven't taken the bus
because the bus as it stands currently isn’t a viable option. If steps are made to make it viable, they will.
why isnt it viable?
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Why don't you look up how long it would take you to get to the grocery store from your house
Google maps will even tell you how to do it. I bet it will take much longer, require a long walk to and from the stop, waiting for the bus, etc. If there were more routes, faster buses, more stops, buildings set up with bus stops right outside, it’d be viable. Our system doesn’t support it, and it needs to.
I don't understand your issue here
You clearly no longer live here, why do you care about the congestion and the transit system?
But, but I took away their choice so no, they aren't on another route they're on my bus
you can’t say that people won’t have the choice to drive and then tell me that they’ll still drive.
by Sillence on Jul 21, 2011 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
When we come to a topic
that directly involves your master’s thesis (mine was using Cube Voyager, which used an econometric model I helped create, to estimate transit demand in Tallahassee). I promise I won’t laugh at your points either. I like to debate as much as anyone, but you need to know when you’re in over your head.
by Sillence on Jul 21, 2011 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
nole07 think you need to go to law school...
You have a fight to ya. Don’t agree with all you say. But, you have enough nutsack to do it.
i will be there in a few weeks
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
and yes, i have been told i have quite the pair
not always in a nice tone, mind you, but the opinion remains the same.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Atlanta has tons of lanes because "people love the freedom"
Please, come up to Atlanta and ask drivers stuck on 75/85 for 3 HOURS ON WEEKDAYS why they’re driving. I’m guessing none of them will tell you: “I love this! The freedom to sit in traffic is just wonderful.”
No, they’ll all tell you (myself included): “I’m driving because there are no other realistic options in this God forsaken city. I want to stab my eyes with a fork right now sitting in this traffic.”
by NoleFrenzy on Jul 21, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
good point
but the point remains in most average sized cities
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
well the problem with atlanta is that everyone wants a giant suburban home
because the city is considered hell and dangerous, which is b.s.
Never work Retail!!!!!!
by phi*tau-nole on Jul 21, 2011 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I know it, can't stand it.
When I worked in the schools, I worked in both South and North Fulton County. Can’t tell you how many times, when I told people this, they said “Oh! Isn’t South Fulton just SO different than North Fulton?” I’d say “uh, not really. It’s a whole lot easier to get around in South county, I like it more.”
White fright abounds in this place.
white fright my butt
my boss, who grew up in ATL, is black. he knows that there are some seedy parts of downtown ATL, and the rest of it is really expensive (which prices out many people who might consider living there).
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
There are seedy parts of EVERY city on the planet.
and if you don’t think there are some serious white fright issues in this city, you clearly have never spent any extended amount of time here.
never went to Techwood, huh?
my boss grew up in metro ATL, and yeah, a lot of the city is hell and dangerous. the parts of Downtown, Midtown, and Buckhead that arent dangerous are really expensive.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
The danger is grossly exaggerated.
Worked at a school in East Point. Heard gasps from the suburban moms in Alpharetta when I told them this. However, it was one of the nicest schools I’ve seen. Full of polite, respectful students. Parked my car on the street in the neighborhood across from the school. Left it unlocked multiple times when my locks were broken. Never had 1 issue.
The problem is people EXPECT it to be dangerous
so when they hear about a crime in the city, they say “Well, that’s Atlanta for you.” When the same crime happens in the suburbs, it’s “shocking” and a “tragedy.” When it really isn’t, it just doesn’t fit into their preconceived notions of their safe suburbs vs. “dangerous” cities.
Atlanta has tons of lanes because the the city itself has very little power.
The political power in the metro resides in the counties. And when Cobb county said they don’t want Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta (MARTA) to have any lines in Cobb county, so it became. Everyone has bought into suburban sprawl as the epitome of economic development. Carroll County, which is on the Alabama border, thinks that its the next Gwinett county. More capacity means more drivers. More drivers mean more congestion. More congestion means more capacity is needed. And more capacity means more drivers. It is a circular loop where building more roads and widening existing roads leads to more traffic congestion. This has been an observable fact in nearly every city in America, regardless of its size.
The Swami has spoken.
by seminole_swami on Jul 22, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I quit planning school
when i realized it will never work. This is a peice of a big puzzle eh? Well 8 years later when only 30% of the puzzle peices are in place a new boss will get elected and the urban designer will get a better job in Seattle. Guess what? New 20 year plan. Rinse repeat.
Still, you have to love the notion that screwing up traffic really bad will get people to ride the bus or ride their sweaty bicycle in a bus lane next to drunk drivers. Try having kids who drank a 32 oz stadium coke in the car while you patiently wait for a cute little street to clear. This after you walked 1/2 mile to your car.
The only traffic reduction plan that will work is to make everyone park at the edge of town and rent a golf cart to get to campus. Everything else is just folly.
"Well, If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak." -Jayne Cobb
by Ponder This on Jul 21, 2011 7:54 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
this argument also applies to not giving politicians more power
you may love the hell out of the current guy, but what happens when the other side wins the next election?
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Generally this doesn't happen too much.
A former boss was a city planner and developed a 30 year plan 20 something years ago. Since then it has been passed down through numerous city planners with minor changes depending on the necessities of the times. A good city plan does not specify what to do to an exactitude, but has a series of goals and phases to accomplish over time.
There is no way to determine what to do 30 years from now, but there is broad goals to be set and met over time. And this stuff happens in city planning dept. not the govs office. The governors come and go, budgets rise and fall, specific projects requested, but generally a plan is followed. The Mayor or Governor does not go into the city planning office and tell them what to do.
˙uʍop ǝpısdn sı pʃɹoʍ ǝɥ⊥.
Really, then all the Walmarts
are right where the planners envisoned them? I think not.
"Well, If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak." -Jayne Cobb
by Ponder This on Jul 21, 2011 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Since then it has been passed down through numerous city planners with minor changes depending on the necessities of the times.
A good city plan does not specify what to do to an exactitude, but has a series of goals and phases to accomplish over time.
There is no way to determine what to do 30 years from now, but there is broad goals to be set and met over time
but generally a plan is followed
In georgia, local officials can play a very large role in where big box stores locate.
More times than not the big box store ends up on property that a local official sold to the big box store. Coincidence? I think not.
The Swami has spoken.
by seminole_swami on Jul 22, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And this is what people don't see
It happens like this everywhere. I was with producing a local watchdog radio show for a while, and you wouldn’t believe the amounts of money local politicians made because they sat on planning commissions. They were able to use that information to buy land and exploit like this. And it’s all legal.
The more power you put into the hands of politicians, the more those same politicians can manipulate that power to enrich and aggrandize themselves.
"My mistress is pooped, the reds have Oklahoma, and I'm going to bed."
-Hodge Podge, Bloom County
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. "
"In practice, there is."-Yogi Berra
by Dogrel on Jul 22, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bud - I blame you for this - you have attracted the intelligent/over educated football fan who is willing to type paragraphs about urban planning on a football website
Bud – you had a dream about what this website could be…This is not it… this is not it. ;)
OK...
Now i get it… People are to lazy to walk…
Pretty much.
If we could get everyone on board with the changes necessary to make more of a walking city, I think it would be great (particularly on game weekends, since it could give us an atmosphere we’ve always lacked). But I have to sell on the idea that we will actually get enough people out of their cars and on to buses and bikes. It’s hot most of the year, the buses don’t have the best reputation, driving is ingrained in the culture, etc.
I could be wrong, but I envision 4 crowded lanes of car traffic with empty buses and the same number of bikes there always were.
bingo, this is exactly what would happen because the demand isnt there
I could be wrong, but I envision 4 crowded lanes of car traffic with empty buses and the same number of bikes there always were.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
i live 10 miles from work, and most people live about that far away or further
safe to say walking is not an option for most of us. too many people live in too small an area for us to all be in walking distance from work.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
And why do you live so far from work?
Probably because there wasn’t another option. When the city you live in started to grow, somebody decided it’d be a good idea to have all the offices over here, all the businesses over here, and all the houses over here. Everything spread out, thus walking is made impossible.
But if somebody had some foresight, they would mix the business/office/residential districts so you COULD live close and walk if you choose. And if you really like the idea of driving to work, you can live out in the country. But the point is, our system now, in most cities, has but 1 option: drive.
thats not how city growth works
everyone lived where downtown is now. then there were too many people, so some of them had to live farther away. when they got far enough away, some businesses sprung up or relocated to get in with that new market, while many stayed downtown. over time, the businesses didnt move (creating a business district) and the homes spread farther out (the suburbs). dont forget zoning laws that actually force these two to be separate.
things will change, slowly but surely. but the model for building a city wasnt somebody’s bad idea, it was the direct result of property values and natural growth. it takes parts of downtown turning into slums, followed by gentrification, to make downtown an option for people to live.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Zoning laws are exactly what I'm referring to
zoning laws are the problem. Forcing business and residential districts to be separate is what has led us to suburban sprawl.
not as much as you would think
but it has been a contributing factor
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Complete over-reaction
no one is going to say “Wow, I’d love to go to the football game this weekend, but I don’t want to drive on Tennessee St.”
The ability to park in the outskirts and take public transit in sounds pretty awesome. Atlanta dealt with an uproar when they took away the MARTA park and ride for Braves games. It makes it easier to get to games, not harder.
by NoleFrenzy on Jul 21, 2011 8:33 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Not to mention the whole "problem" sounds like a Catch 22...
If frustrating traffic on Tennessee Street lowers attendance at home games… then traffic will improve since less people are driving on Tennessee Street.
Which in turn will encourage MORE people to attend home games… then traffic will worsen due to more people driving on Tennessee Street.
Which will lower attendance at home games… then traffic will improve since less people are driving on Tennessee Street.
Which in turn will encourage MORE people to attend home games… then traffic will worsen due to more people driving on Tennessee Street.
Which will lower attendance… HEAD ASPLODE.
But with lower crowds our team will suffer
and make recruits want to come here less which will make the team suffer more, until recruits realize they can walk in and start which will make us more attractive to the best recruits, give us a big boost on the field and get the crowds back. . .Bloom!
"Well, If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak." -Jayne Cobb
by Ponder This on Jul 21, 2011 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
and that is a good idea
but it doesnt mean you are taking away anyone’s ability to drive normally. this is giving people a choice.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Somebody above mentioned Jacksonville.
I say we take a cue from the Jags and move past this whole conversation.
Parking near the stadium blows. Much like with us. But in Jax you can pay about two bucks to take a city bus, round trip, from a dozen different sites in Duval and Clay counties. Why would FSU not be able to foster a similar arrangement? Park at a Publix or at the mall and catch a bus. Spread the traffic (and revenue) out a bit.
"This year I am focused on scoring. I want to score, along with getting good field position for the offense. I am going to try and score a little bit this year. I kinda miss the endzone a little bit." -G5
Me too
even better would be taking a water taxi to the stadium. Hey, lets dig a canal down the center of Tennesse street. No one will want to drive through that mess, so everyone will support the water taxi. The engines can run on hydrogen, turning water into fuel and oxygen.
"Well, If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak." -Jayne Cobb
by Ponder This on Jul 21, 2011 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
You CAN do that.
Park at the Civic Center and take the game day shuttle to the stadium.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
Maybe the problem there is that you sorta have to get into the traffic jam you are trying to avoid before you reach the shuttle?
I come from the other way on gameday so not sure exactly how bad it gets around the civic center.
If these sites are spread out
than that problem is solved.
Anybody that thinks
They can show up at kickoff with no problems is a idiot. Not going to happen poeple. My adventure is 460 miles round trip. My plan is to show up 3hrs before the game, have a few cold beers, and have some more cold beers… The key to the traffic issue is don’t park close to the stadium…
If you're coming from the west you can bypass the stadium completely and go south on Macomb/Railroad to the CC.
If traffic is truly that bad by the time you reach Ocala or High while driving east on Tennessee, turn left on those roads to hit up Tharpe and take Tharpe down to Old Bainbridge and follow that to the CC. There’s also that new parking garage FSU built across from the CC. The walk, if you don’t mind it, is less than a mile to Doak. There are many places on the north and northeast sides of campus where you can park free and just walk to the stadium as well.
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
WHOA! this is probably the first time I have a problem with an article written on TN!!!
As an urban planning student at FSU this article sounds like suburbanite trash…I dont mean to disrespect FSU44, But please understand how car congestion works and how actually making a road larger has a negative effect on road congestion…..if you need some info just let me know.
Get money fudge Biatches
by phi*tau-nole on Jul 21, 2011 8:39 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
More Roads May Pave The Way To More Traffic
Never work Retail!!!!!!
by phi*tau-nole on Jul 21, 2011 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I so glad we have people knowledgeable on this to help inform the misinformed
thank you.
by NoleFrenzy on Jul 21, 2011 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ugh
where is Good Will Hunting when you need him to debunk some freshman textbooks?
"Well, If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak." -Jayne Cobb
by Ponder This on Jul 21, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
that isnt in question, and it only makes sense
when you make something a good option, people will use it. if you expand a road, you have to have a plan for how to make another place for the traffic to go. the question is whether decreasing road size will decrease traffic and encourage people to use public transportation. i maintain it will only make traffic worse on that (and other) streets, and will not make people more likely to ride the bus.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Your contention and argument are incorrect.
Perhaps you should educate yourself on the ways congestion works before making an extremely uneducated and incorrect hypothesis.
The Swami has spoken.
by seminole_swami on Jul 22, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
who wants to make the road larger?
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
umm thats what the OP thinks would solve traffic problems, more lanes
Never work Retail!!!!!!
by phi*tau-nole on Jul 21, 2011 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions
ummm, where does it say that?
all i see is the suggestion that the lanes be decreased, and an argument that this would be a bad idea. that means maintaining status quo.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
never said that
I was simply arguing against reduction. The npr article you posted essentially says that traffic expands to fit the available lane capacity. But at some point, there is a baseline of traffic, at least at certain times of the day, that has to be on the road.
Less optional driving, less trips to the store, less local spending. Maybe it sounds nice in theory to get this done, but the private development side has to be there, which it isn’t and probably won’t be for a long while.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
by fsu44 on Jul 22, 2011 12:08 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The private backers behind
the “College Town” development proposed for the new Gaines street area disagree.
disagree with which part?
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
by fsu44 on Jul 22, 2011 8:21 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
this thread is about tenn st
Pretty sure they’d prefer that new gaines become the new center of town, not new tennessee st.
This isn’t a guess, I’ve actually had the conversation with people who are involved the deal and who are vehemetly opposed to tennessee street modification.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
by fsu44 on Jul 22, 2011 8:30 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
mmmmmmmmmm
A Seminole warrior killed in battle is a legend remembered. A Gator lost in battle becomes a pair of boots and a belt.
twitter of random stuff and tons of confessing FSU love @caine115
by caine115 on Jul 21, 2011 9:02 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Because it won't affect attendance?
MiNDSET? SWAG-ER-ISM!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Wherever you are, Trick, you are wise, indeed.
Correct, Sir Trick.
You truly are one of God's treasures, Trick
by tricknole on Jul 21, 2011 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The only thing that matters to me is...
When siad and done. I’m watching my Noles…
Holy cow this group needs fall practice to start.
Sometimes God calms the storm, sometimes He calms the sailor.
by slumgullion on Jul 21, 2011 9:41 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Who knew?
Most contentious discussions on Tomahawk Nation. Bobby Bowden retirement/removal and….city planning.HAHA.
FSU Football, making bad teams look bad since 2010.
by onebarrelrum on Jul 21, 2011 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I might have won that bet.
If I call “Casey Anthony verdict” now and she makes headlines in the next week, can I get credit for a trifecta?
"It's one thing to grab an extra shampoo bottle off her cart, but I draw the line at actually raping hotel maids." - Norm MacDonald
It's like forcing to go back to VHS, because DVD's don't make as much "revenue".
The government is meddling too much here. Just like always.
Check out the 2012 Recruiting Discussion Threads in the FanPost section
No its not.
Its like Netflix versus blockbuster. One movie streaming to multiple users or one dvd rental at a time.
Can't believe I wasted 9 hours reading it.
"You make the helmet, the helmet doesn't make you." << Jimbo FN' Fisher
Twitter @RobbedbyJT
FWIW
The first paragraph after the break’s one of the best pieces of satire I’ve ever read. I don’t care how you feel about the best drinking spot on the planet, but if you didn’t laugh out loud at that commentary, you don’t have a soul. Bravo.
"It's one thing to grab an extra shampoo bottle off her cart, but I draw the line at actually raping hotel maids." - Norm MacDonald
I support reducing the number of lanes
Going to disagree with a lot of people here. Tennessee looks like sh*t at the moment. They’re doing this to beautify the area, which it desperately needs. Tennessee is one of the busiest if not the busiest street in Tallahassee and it’s an embarrassment currently. I’m extremely happy the Tallahassee government is trying to improve the cities aesthetics.
you support it most of Tally does not...especially older people that work in that area.
A wise polish man once said: If you don't look out for #1, you get a hand full of #2
by PalmAireNole on Jul 22, 2011 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
The area is not being completely blocked off. I’m not an urban planner, but I have to believe the traffic will adjust. The side streets will be become more utilized.
I think this will help FSU, not hurt FSU. If any of you read the sites were high schools students and other prospective students post, you’ll find Tallahassee and FSU have a bad reputation. People talk about how dirty Tallahassee is and what a bad area FSU is in.
This will not change the area that Tally is in, it will always be a bad neighborhood. Unless they plan on renovating French town and the student ghetto near Jackson Bluff.
Colleges can easily be expected to be in less desirable areas as they typically have cheap rent around them, attracting those with low incomes.
A wise polish man once said: If you don't look out for #1, you get a hand full of #2
by PalmAireNole on Jul 22, 2011 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Just a for instance for you
if by providing an option for people to bus in, you remove say 20% of the amount of cars on the road, then isn’t it a success? Dont you inherently reduce the amount of people who drive? Its not about game day, its about the other 357 days in a year.
No
Reducing 20% of the cars…but you have reduced the drivable space by 33%…somewhere math is going to show you have more cars fighting for lanes.
A wise polish man once said: If you don't look out for #1, you get a hand full of #2
by PalmAireNole on Jul 22, 2011 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Transportation planners can show you that this system can and does work.
The reduced drivable space means that people start parking elsewhere and busing in thus decrease the amount of cars on the road by a much larger amount then simply just 20%. Its about providing options and frankly as someone who likes to ride to work I’d much prefer a safer alternative then riding on the road with people who quite frankly are actually just pissed off theres a bicyclist on the road. Just tonight I almost got hit by someone riding my bike home from work. I came up on a 4 way stop sign and was there before the F-250, was wearing 4 lights and a reflective safety vest yet the driver of the truck chose to ignore that.
Its completely about reducing the number of people who drive because there is already way to much congestion. If by increasing the ability to ride the bus they can decrease the number of people who drive then this plan is absolutely a success.
If you are a biker and stop at stop signs, that is amazing. You should teach a class or something.
A wise polish man once said: If you don't look out for #1, you get a hand full of #2
by PalmAireNole on Jul 22, 2011 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I completely follow the rules of the road, and many others do as well.
Sure there are a few bad apples, but thats the same with drives. Its just a darn shame that certain drivers don’t seem to respect them when bikers are present. If you’ve ever been to Austin is just a thing of beauty as a cyclist. People realize that cyclists have the exact same right to be on the road as cars if bike lanes are not present. Unfortunately Tally is not like that. Try riding a bike on Tennessee St. Heck I wouldn’t even ride a motorcycle on that road as it is.
I don't ride a bike on Tenn, I do understand how that is nightmare, I keep a bike on campus and just go for a ride around campus Sunday mornings
Used to ride around in Sofla, but damn they have terrible cyclists. Every last one of them thinks they are Lance Armstrong.
A wise polish man once said: If you don't look out for #1, you get a hand full of #2
by PalmAireNole on Jul 22, 2011 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Florida hates cyclists in general
I’ve never been in a state with more people who hate cyclists, combined with cyclists who think the lane is only there for them.
Dude got killed on Tram Rd in Southwood area a couple days ago.
Tallahassee looks down their noses at non-motorists.
I wanna say
a couple of years ago same thing happened. Dude was walking across capital circle in a cross walk and got mowed down. Its pathetic and so disheartening.
IMO
Terrible Idea. I understand the issue, but perhaps the problem is the quantity of traffic lights on that darn street. Is a light really needed, by the liquor loft, or the robotos?
The people that I have talked to that have lived in tally all their lives and live in that area are not thrilled. The conservative minds in town have
The city is trying to make the star metro profitable. Period. I have heard essentially the same thing come out city officials mouths. This is an attempt to do that.
The FSU busses are decent but I prefer the convenience of my own car. I enjoy stopping at publix on the way home without worrying about the bus. I know people who have shopped that way while living on campus, by using the bus. They used to ask me for rides. you know how long the bus was on TN street to get to near publix…1 block. One block of clear traffic would not not make taking the bus more enticing
I will be amused to see the conditioning of thousands of kids from Tampa, SoFla, Orlando and attempting to force them to not use a car. Can we all agree on this point?
A wise polish man once said: If you don't look out for #1, you get a hand full of #2
Yes there is an absolute need
for a light next to robotos because there is a large density of students who live on one side of the street and NEED a safe crossway to get from one side to the other.
You currently prefer to use your car because the buses aren’t reliable. If the buses because reliable and it was frustrating to drive your car, you’d see it otherwise. Tallahassee is aiming to reduce the number of drivers in the city. I applaud that effort. People in Tally don’t see to carpool and parking is a terrible mess on a daily basis. By providing student and local businesses the option to take a bus in then I’, sure it will be used. Just look at the shear volume of people who currently take the bus to campus every day.
there is a cross walk like 100 yards west..what is wrong with that one?
A wise polish man once said: If you don't look out for #1, you get a hand full of #2
by PalmAireNole on Jul 22, 2011 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Show me the cross walk from the Love Building
or the one from Rogers hall where I lived? Or from the alumni lot where at any given time there are roughly 70 cars parked? There are none. Asking students to walk from the Love building/Rogers to stadium is not going to happen.
People still don't use the cross walk. I seen many people while sitting at Robotos cross not using the crosswalk to go to burger king
A wise polish man once said: If you don't look out for #1, you get a hand full of #2
by PalmAireNole on Jul 22, 2011 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions
The busses are fairly reliable, I just know that my car is still a faster option.
A wise polish man once said: If you don't look out for #1, you get a hand full of #2
by PalmAireNole on Jul 22, 2011 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions
The ones that serve the campus yes.
the ones that serve the rest of tally not so much. And for students to are on a budget, busing to school saves you money on gas and makes life much easier without having to dread spending a half an hour finding a parking space for your 11am class on a tues thurs
For the students on a budget, they should be using the buses that are are convenient so I don’t know why you brought that up.
The rest of tally, I don’t see my friends from Bradfordville carpooling anytime soon. It is going to be a sore subject while they implement it. It could very well work, if so, GREAT. I’m all in favor of carpooling, but I don’t know if it will work.
A wise polish man once said: If you don't look out for #1, you get a hand full of #2
by PalmAireNole on Jul 22, 2011 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions
For the people I know in
Southwood, the would absolute use mass transit if it was reliable, same for killearn. I dont know anyone that would prefer a 45 min commute to work by themselves frustrated by traffic.
This in reality is a small stretch of Tennessee street. Most of that road is already a two lane road so people would just resume business as usual. Its about the future. This kind of implementation isn’t about the next year or so, its about the long term goal of giving people incentives to move back into the city and disincentives to drive. If you want to drive, thats your choice. No one is going to take that choice away from you. They just want to create other viable means of transportation for those who are tired of traffic and frustrated with the way things currently are.
Good point about the stop lights. I’ve often wondered if reducing the number of side streets, and consequently, the number of lights, would improve traffic in Tallahassee. It’d make the city look better too.
Tallahassee could improve traffic
by simply realizing it has a north/south road and a east west road and making the stop lights reflect that. How many time do you end up getting stuck at every single one of them…Blame that on traffic engineers.
by fsugrizz on Jul 22, 2011 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cause there are no stoplights or cops
So people drive 45+ on residential roads.. But yes. I abused those going each way, and actually those are the roads I used to ride to school and back. Can’t tell you the number of times I got to hear engines rev’d or got honked at.
This frustrates me the most
How much does that kill everyone’s MPG? How much fuel, time and money does that waste? Its insane. I would like to hear a reasoning behind this if anyone has one.
I just want to say that I appreciate
being able to discuss these kinds of matters with you all. Obviously we dont all agree but its at least refreshing that anyone with a dissenting opinion doesn’t get banned on the spot and we were all able to not resort to name calling etc.
This is a flawed argument.
Anything they do to restrict lane usage will have no bearing on game days. I do this for a living and work college football games in Atlanta every home game. You know what the #1 concern of the Athletic Department is? Traffic. Why? Because that’s what the #1 concern is of their customers. So what do we do? We have a game day traffic plan that addresses ingress and egress at different times before and after the game. We take over the traffic signals, turn 2-ways streets into 1-way streets, and pull traffic strategically to limit how long folks have to wait coming and going.
Point is, they can turn every lane into bus traffic, but on gameday, the police and game day planners don’t care. They’ll do whatever it takes to pull traffic.
This will have 0 effect on gameday attendance and logistics.
I think it's hilarious
that anybody with a driver’s license is a mass transportation and urban development expert.
Better known as Dr. Kenneth Noisewater.
by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Jul 22, 2011 8:45 AM EDT reply actions
Its so true
I know Sillence and the girl I date was in the urban planning program with him… Its humorous to see people complain about star metro not realizing that its been darn near completely redone in the pass year or two (a lot of it actually by sillence who realized things weren’t efficient). I’m not transportation planner but as a cyclist who likes to ride to work I commend the city for actually trying to provide me with a safe method of transport.
harper,
well done. I rec’d just about every one of your comments.
Better known as Dr. Kenneth Noisewater.
by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Jul 22, 2011 8:50 AM EDT reply actions
Too late to the party to really get in but I'll just say this
Mass transportation stinks. Literally. Aside from Tally I’ve lived in NYC, Newark, Philly and Baltimore. People smell awful and the buses/trains are stuffy and hot. That is the number 1 reason I cite every time when its an argument between public or personal transportation. If I don’t have to ride to my destination with disgusting smelly people then I’m not going to.
This was amazing. I started reading it 20 minutes ago
Wow. This was definitely an information overload since there was smart opinions on both sides. I think its funny how you can see political leanings in everything, even stuff that on its face would appear to be minor.
I love TN.
"However, I say, let UM burn." -onebarrelrum
Public transportation always seems to bring out the political ideology in everyone. Its tied to a lot of areas that are political (Environmental, economic situation of the passengers, individuality vs. a collective, etc) so its only natural the leanings would be seen. Not as much anymore with their immense popularity, but another minor issue that I would always see bring out politics was Mac Users vs. PC/IE users.
Tennessee St. is such a dump
I don’t know the details of this plan…but I wish there was a redevelopment plan for the north border of campus. That section of Tennessee St. is a complete eyesore and an embarrassment to FSU (not that its directly responsible). And it’s likely to just get worse as the Madison/Gaines development moves forward.
PS The City of Tallahassee govt is the worst…so I have no trust in any of their ideas. That being said, again, I don’t know any details on this initiative.
Tennessee Street is also insane
That is one of the scariest roads in Tallahassee—blind lane changing at excessive speed, just craziness. As a huge a fan as I am of FSU, the ease of getting to a football game shouldn’t be the overriding consideration here. I’m in favor of narrowing that road. And I agree about Tenn St being a dump and an embarrassment. So is Gaines St, and now at least that is improving. Either one would make me wince as a parent of a potential FSU student.
I'll give up my car and the convenience it provides me, when you pry my steering wheel from my cold dead hands.
I’ve worked hard to have the freedom to be able to conduct business on the phone (hands-free of course) while sitting in traffic in my Navigator, to make the necessary stops along the way as I see fit, to not have to worry about my Chunky Monkey ice cream melting on a bus, and not have to resort to public transportation which would not allow me any of these advantages. Even if public transportation were improved, and even if I have to sit in traffic with other commuters for longer periods of time, I will choose to drive. Public transportation is not an option for me, nor do I see it ever becoming one, not because of the “luxury” driving my car affords me, but due more to the practicality, especially in a large spread out metropolitan area and living outside the city limits. (Yeah, I’m one of the bad guys in many of your views)
I don’t live in Tally, so I don’t know if this plan is better than the status quo. But I do think, as others mentioned previously, students should have little say in the proposed plan since they will leave after graduation. The residents and professionals who live in Tally year round should be the ones making and voting on this proposal.
Buses do not travel any faster than cars if they are stuck in the same traffic as cars, unless they implement the bus only lane. But then, unless you double the budget for public transportation and increase the number of buses in the system, it will not work, the bus lanes will be mostly empty and you will have pissed off commuters.
It’s been a few years since I’ve been to Chicago, and Tallahassee is no Chicago in terms of population and traffic, so this is probably not an option for Tally’s Tennessee St. But I don’t understand why it isn’t used more in metropolitan areas like Atlanta, Tampa, South Florida.
They have (had) a system where the middle lanes were bi-directional. That is, they converted them towards downtown in the morning, and then switched them away from downtown at the end of the day. At the time, these were not HOV lanes or SunPass lanes like we have down south that charge extra for the privilege of usage, but they could be such. I don’t know if these bi-directional lanes are still around, but I found them fascinating, and I guess since they make too much common sense for other congested cities to incorporate this brilliant concept in order to alleviated traffic jams.
>------::----::------->Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
And that's fine
You are free to make that choice and continue driving. But as it stands now, driving is really the ONLY choice, and I would like the freedom to make my own choices and take public transit to work. But I won’t be able to do that unless it’s made a more realistic option.
by NoleFrenzy on Jul 22, 2011 11:00 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
And that's fine with me also. No disagreement there.
The problem comes down to $$. As I put in my comment, the only way this will work will be if they double the budget for public transportation, and with the budget shortfalls facing most cities/counties (I don’t know Tally’s situation, but I imagine it the same as everyone else’s), will the elected officials have the balls to allocate more money in that direction? Where will the money come from, higher taxes? From the little I know about this subject, most public/rapid transportation systems are not self-sustaining.
>------::----::------->Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
Not self sustaining
But (if planned and run efficiently) it is almost always more cost effective than constant maintenance and expansion of roads and bridges that our current system requires.
People seem to forget (not you, just in general) that roads are far from cheap. Just because it’s your car that you paid for doesn’t mean it doesn’t cost other taxpayers any money for you to use it.
by NoleFrenzy on Jul 22, 2011 11:44 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No transit system is self-sustaining.
That charge against mass transit is silly, Frank, because it’s equally true of roads — maybe even more so. People aren’t still believing in that “gas taxes pay for the roads” story, are they?
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes
"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher
by Drew J Jones on Jul 22, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
What charge against mass transit?
You took the last 8 words of my comment out of context and tried to twist it into a debate with the cost of maintaining roads.
>------::----::------->Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
Not intended to be out of context.
Sorry. The theme’s been repeated in the thread ad nauseum.
"Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought on the unthinking."
- John Maynard Keynes
"We'll be here 'til midnight. We ain't not gonna practice."
- Jimbo Fisher
by Drew J Jones on Jul 22, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
As a poster who read this entire thread.....
It is interesting to see some of the different opinions (however misinformed they are). I actually am a professional Transportation Planner (MS, FSU) and I really appreciate harper.rb’s commments on this topic.
WHAT!!!
When I heard this, I was shocked! If anything the road should be widened, though with the historical buildings you cannot do so. Terrible idea. Just terrible. Nobody in the world likes sitting in the traffic jam close to Monroe every day.
by Lauren Stratman on Jul 22, 2011 10:57 AM EDT reply actions
You can not widen the road
and as some of the transportatio planners have already mentioned, given more lanes does nothing to allievate congestion because it simple means more people willl drive and there will be more cars on the road. Traffic problems will always exist. This is an effort to just reduce the number of cars in that traffic jam.
We all know how it worked out for Kramer!
It’s so luxurious!
FSU, home of the Bandit! Enough said!
by cmk07c on Jul 22, 2011 11:04 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Clearly
the next article needed here is on Religion.
What are you glorifying with your life?
by ricobert1 on Jul 22, 2011 11:14 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
No thanks.
I had this sane argument with my fiance the other night. She kept yelling out real loud, GOD, OH GOD, and I had to tell her to keep it down so the neighbors wouldn’t think she was praying.
>------::----::------->Spearing 'em and Scalping 'em like it's 1999
I'm not so sure this Jimbo fella is the right man for the job.
I never thought I'd see such political discussion on this site
This a classic liberal vs. conservative debate. If you’re a liberal/progressive you probably are in favor of the bus plan. It is more environmentall friendly (increasing traffic makes people less likely to drive and more likely to use the bus, thus less emissions), and it involves planning for what is best for all, especially the lower class. If you’re a conservative/liberatarian you probably dislike the idea of big brother and central “planning” deciding what is best for you by making your preferred option less desirable for the sake of their vision of what the perfect city should look like.
You guys aren’t going to change each others minds because liberals are going to stay liberal and conservatives are going to stay conservative. Both are needed in our society and I love all of you. Are you ready for some football?
by SDnole on Jul 22, 2011 11:15 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The irony of your comment...
its that at least one of the people in favour of this bus plan is extremely conservative and im not talking about myself. I care about the environment sure, but I’m absolutely riding my bike to work because i care about emissions. I ride because i like the exersize and freedom of having nothing to worry about but the wind in my face. I’m actually a liberatarian and feel you’ve incorrectly lumped me in with the dislike of city planning. When cities are planned correctly you don’t feel like big brother is interfereing. Its when cities were poorly planned in the first place and planners try to correct it that you have this feeling of interference. and….
Are you ready for some football?
YES
Let me be as clear as possible:
I don’t care how you label yourself. I think opposing opinions are good for society and that we develop the best ideas when people start with different positions. The environment is awesome, exersize is awesome, expediant travel is awesome and—above all—Tomahawk Nation is awesome. Let’s get back to what we agree on: our love of FSU football.
Just something I've noticed
reading this thread. There are obviously two camps regarding this issue.
Camp 1- I hate this Idea camp.
Mostly in this camp you have people who have no knowledge of City Planning, Urban Development or Design. Who believe at a fundamental level that government interaction into traffic and urban development amount to Civil Engineering and Tyranny.
This group ignores any evidence that counters their predisposition.
Camp 2 – The I love this idea camp.
In this group you have people who actually work in this field, people who studied the problems and do this everyday for a living.
These people argue that doing nothing amounts to a choice in and of itself. This is another form of Soft Tyranny in and of itself because it forces everyone to drive. They argue that opening up bike and bus lanes will enhance the city center and actually reduce traffic when density and public transportation ridership increases.
Full Disclosure I’m about as liberal as one could be. I am fully on board with this proposal because I haven’t seen a valid intelligent reason why it shouldn’t be done. The only dissents I’ve heard are things like “They’ll pull the steering wheel from my cold dead hands” and “They’re forcing me to ride the bus” which no one is doing. This whole argument seems silly to me.
The Funk Phenomenon.
by willdabeast on Jul 22, 2011 1:25 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
So you’re argument is that those who disagree with supporting this idea are stupid and ignorant and those that agree with it are the smart ones. That seems helpful.
My grammar/spelling is horrendous...
Packing all our stuff to move and I packed up my coffee maker. Exhausted.
I never said anyone was stupid
I did say that the people who oppose are largely people with no deep knowledge of Urban Design or Development. If someone with extensive knowledge in these fields would like to weigh in opposition I would love to hear it. I haven’t heard that in this thread.
The Funk Phenomenon.
it isn't really surprising that people who claim urban design as their profession
take the side of the learned professionals in their same field.
i think if both sides are honest, they would agree that in the short to intermediate term- 1-10 years, reducing capacity makes traffic worse.
It is kind of ironic that the conservative side of the debate is almost taking a Keynsian (in the long run, we are all dead) approach.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
Is there another camp?
One that lumps civil engineering in with something terrible and in cahoots (sp) with tyranny? We’re not bad guys. One of the disciplines within the field is heavily involved with planning and developing………not some a-hole telling Bubba where to pour the asphault.
Better known as Dr. Kenneth Noisewater.
by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Jul 22, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I think so
But in fairness, I believe it is the urban planning crew in this thread who brought the “i’m an expert, you’ll take my plan and like it” vibe to the thread.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
I think the use of 'soft tyranny' is being misinterpreted in a "King George" sort of way
And I wouldn’t intend to demean or demonize civil engineers in this at all; they’re not the ones with whom I have beef on this project. Soft tyranny is sort of a “we’re going to slowly, over the course of years, remove choices from your every day life until the only one you’re left with is the one we want you to pick.” That’s at the level of bureaucrats and suits in capitol office buildings, not the city planners. I wouldn’t insinuate that there’s some nefarious government conspiracy out there to take our cars away from us, but I would certainly say there’s an uncomfortable amount of govt’ social engineering when it comes the way transportation and infrastructure decisions are made these days.
A Pessimist Complains About The Weather
An Optimist Waits For It To Change
A Realist Adjusts The Sails
I think there is a third camp
made up of people who like the idea of turning Tallahassee into a downtown/campus area you can walk, but don’t believe cutting out a lane will actually get people out of their cars.
I live a block off Tennessee, and I am probably going to sit in the Tennessee traffic or use Pensacola/another route before I figure out a bus schedule, do extra walking on both ends in Florida heat/humidity, deal with the issues of public transportation, etc.
There are over 480 comments on this thread. The idea that all the arguments against are crap is insane. I don’t have a degree in Urban Development or City Planning or anything like that, but I don’t think that makes my questions or my dissent any less valid.
It sounds like at least in the beginning this would be an absolute nightmare for traffic in the city. Right now, most people are driving and are used to that and prefer that. Eliminating lanes would only increase congestion, and that only gets better if in the long run people end up preferring buses and/or using a bicycle, which no one knows would actually happen. Its been a few years since I’ve been in Tallahassee, but I’m guessing its still hot as hell there most of the year. Riding a bike in that to work sounds horrendous, as does cramming onto a bus with dozens of people with questionable hygiene who have been baking in the sun for a while waiting for the hot sun and humidity. No thanks, I’ll keep my cars.
I figured out why there was so much conflict in here
Look at the picture……..UF 7 FSU 3. We won by 24!!!! Couldn’t you find a picture from a little later in the game?? haha.
Better known as Dr. Kenneth Noisewater.
by Dr.KennethNoisewater on Jul 22, 2011 3:56 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Update
I received a very well thought out response to some of my questions from the contact person.
Rather than run through the specifics, the most pertinent portion of the email was the statement that they had received quite a few comments concerned on the negative impact on gameday that it was “very possible” that the restricted lanes would be utilized during gamedays for regular traffic" if the pilot program is green lit.
I think locking the thread is appropriate.
The Navin R. Johnson of Tomahawk Nation.
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