Fire coach Hamilton? Deconstructing the Florida Flambeau
by Michael Rogner on Jan 11, 2012 9:52 PM EST
in FSU Basketball
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Print99% of Tomahawk Nation readers aren't rabid basketball fans. But there are a few of us. A few who read and comment in every hoops discussion. I'm in that group. And as long as I've been a member of Tomahawk Nation there's been a consistent debate about firing coach Hamilton. That debate has been going on for years, and before TN I participated elsewhere. Every basketball thread on this site (and every other active FSU site) devolves into a fire Ham debate. And so, as a basketball writer here, I do my best to inject reality into the discussion, but nothing more. Because frankly, I don't care. Fans don't decide the fates of coaches, unless you happen to have a lot of money. I just do what I can to help Bud carry on the TN tradition of having the best informed FSU fans around. So I trudge through those debates. Over and over and over and over.
And because it doesn't matter, I've never written about it. Until now.
An assistant editor at the Florida Flambeau wrote an article this week stating that Ham should be fired if he can't get the offense fixed by season's end. And we all know that that is not going to happen. Only four of coach Hamilton's 9 FSU teams have had solid offenses (top-80 of 345) and only 1 had been elite (top-25). And this isn't one of them. And it's not going to be. So in effect, the author was saying he needs to go. And if the author thinks he needs to go, then clearly he thinks that is the best way for the program to move forward.
Readers making comments in a thread are one thing. Editors from newspapers that have a circulation of 25,000 are another. And so I have to respond. I have to inject reality. And so, word for word, here is his article, and here is my response.
They say defense wins championships. But, I'm sure those same people said, "The team with the most points at the end of the game wins."
Such an easy concept to grasp but yet it has seemed to escape the game plan of Florida State basketball head coach Leonard Hamilton. Hamilton's bread and butter is defense, and he even released a new slogan for his team this season: "Junkyard D".
Agree completely. The offense has been bad, and the slogan was assigned to this team. It probably would have been more in the realm of journalism to state that 4 of 9 offenses have been top-80 in order to avoid the appearance of wanting to fire him because of a handful of games rather than his resume, but whatever.
The Seminole defense has lived up to the name. FSU is tops in the ACC in opponent field goal percentage and blocked shots, holding opponents to a .364 shooting mark and averaging 6.6 blocks per game.
All true. Though I'd prefer the writer use more meaningful statistics like eFG% and block%, but that's nitpicking. It's unfair to expect all sportswriters to have a solid understanding of the statistics of the sport they are speaking about.
Unfortunately this supposed malicious defense has not translated into victories. It seems Hamilton has allocated so much practice time to defense that the offense is expected to be terrible.
Okay, here's where our thoughts begin to diverge. How a team with a terrible offense is 10-6 if the 'malicious defense' isn't translating into victories is beyond me, but the larger point is that FSU isn't winning. Sure, FSU has lost some games, but they also have solid wins over UCF (who beat UConn) and UMass (Virginia Tech came after this article was written). Certainly not world beaters, but both will be critical RPI top-100 wins. It's not like FSU has slipped to pre-Ham levels where they hadn't once finished better than 7th (out of 9 ACC teams) in eight years, and were losing home games to Furman and Western Carolina in front of dozens of rabid fans.
Florida State's roster is loaded with big me—seven Seminoles are six foot eight or taller—but the team still relies on perimeter shooting. Most recently against Clemson, FSU would pass the ball several times on the perimeter using patience to finally set up an open shot. When the open shot was available, they could not cash in.
Lots of stuff going on here. Yes, it's true that FSU has seven players at 6'8 or taller. However one of them (6'11 Kiel Turpin) is a redshirt, another (6'8 Antwan Space) broke his foot before the season started, and since he's a freshman who needs to learn the system he's essentially done until next year, and another (6'8 Terrence Shannon - who also happened to have the highest offensive rating on the team (irony alert!)) was lost for the season when he dove for a loose ball in the UConn game which FSU lost in overtime. So in reality, four Seminoles are 6'8 or taller....
....but the team still relies on perimeter shooting. A) that's simply not true. FSU is 197th in the percentage of shots taken from beyond the arc. And B) if the author not only watched the games but also understand what it was that he was seeing he'd know that every team FSU faces collapses their defense focusing on the interior players and attempting to dilute FSUs impressive ability to grab offensive boards. Teams are running under screens and fronting FSUs bigs with backside help.
As for the Clemson game, if the author thinks it's justifiable to hire and fire coaches based on whether or not their players make open three point shots in a single game, then he certainly has that right.
To beef that up with stats, FSU is the worst 3-point shooting team in the ACC, converting just 30 percent of their long distance attempts. Their 70.6 points per game is fifth in the conference and is fractions of points away from dropping to seventh. The poor shooting is not limited to behind the arc; as a team, FSU makes a measly 44 percent of their shots.
Excellent, beef away. FSU, indeed, is tied for the worst shooting 3-point team in the ACC. So it's a good thing the Noles are 197th in attempts. As for a per-game average, that's completely meaningless. In basketball, tempo is king. Each team gets the ball the same number of times, so it's essential to score more than they do when you get the ball. In that regard, FSU is even worse than the author understands. It's just hidden by being more uptempo than most ACC teams. The Seminoles currently are battling it out with Clemson, Wake, and Georgia Tech as the four teams wresting for the 8-11 spots (BC is so bad they're out of it), and FSU is currently 10th.
FSU indeed makes a 'measly' 44% of their shots. But how bad is that? Translating that to a meaningful statistic (eFG% - which gives greater weight to 3-pt shots since they're worth 50% more points) FSU has an eFG% of 49.3% which is slightly above the national average. So how does a team with a slightly above average shooting rate end up with the 10th ranked offense in the ACC? Well, the author never addresses that (hint, it involves no-look passes to the cheerleaders).
The team’s struggles can be because of the losses of Derwin Kitchen and Chris Singleton, two locker room leaders. But I doubt this because 27-year-old senior Bernard James is on the roster along with three other seniors and two grad students.
Leonard Hamilton has made the game of basketball boring for his players. It is no longer fun. With all the focus on defense, Hamilton has vacuumed all the excitement away from offense.
This, for a writer, is inexcusable. The game is boring for his players? If so, that's a HUGE indictment against this staff. Where is the source to back this up?
FSU's leading scorer, Michael Snaer, averages 13.2 points per game. That is No. 14 in the ACC—three pairs of players ahead of Snaer are on the same team and he is the only Seminole in the top 25.
Who cares, basketball is a team sport.
Hamilton's offense this season, to say the least, has been embarrassing so far. FSU has the worst assist-to-turnover margin in the ACC.
More meaningless stats but I'm not going to argue. However you look at FSUs assist rate it is bad.
In two games this season against Ivy League opponents, Hamilton's offense had its worst outings.
Versus Harvard, the ’Noles scored just 41 points. Against Princeton, they scored 10 points in the first half.
Through 15 games a year ago, FSU started off 11-4. This season the ’Noles are 9-6, which includes those inexcusable losses to Harvard and Princeton.
A loss to Harvard is 'inexcusable'? Based on what? The name on their jersey? Last I checked Harvard was 14-2 and is in the top-25 of the Coaches Poll.
As to last year, FSU did begin 11-4 (or 11-5 if you count the next game where they got completely waxed by a non-Tourney Virginia Tech team). Though FSU did that against a much weaker schedule and lost a game (to Auburn) that was far worse than any loss this season. Schedule's matter. Last year at this point FSU wasn't even in the bubble discussion. This year FSU is on the right side of that bubble.
Leonard Hamilton has been great for this program, there is no denying that. He has taken the Seminoles to three consecutive tournament berths including last year's unforgettable run to the Sweet 16.
But if the offensive woes cannot be corrected by season's end, it might be time to fire Ham.
Let me get this straight. For the 2nd time in program history FSU has been to three consecutive Tournaments. Attendance is up significantly. Since ACC expansion only Duke and UNC have won more games. The Noles just brought in two consensus top-100 players and have two more enrolling with the next class. On Saturday ESPN Gameday will be parking in Tallahassee for the 1st time ever and FSU will be playing in front of 12,000 fans. FSU is going to fire THAT guy? Because you don't like the aesthetics of his wins?
NC State, who has far more resources than FSU ran off Herb Sendek because all he did was tie the school record for most consecutive Tourney appearances (sound familiar?). NC State boosters threw their weight around attempting to land any number of high profile coaches, who all laughed at them. Why would anyone in their right mind coach somewhere where you get fired for making several consecutive trips to the Tourney? In the five seasons since then their best ACC record has been 6-10. They turned into a bottom feeder, and they brought it on themselves.
Wake Forest, who has far more resources than FSU fired Dino Gaudio because all he did in his three seasons was go to the Tourney in season 2 and season 3. Wake Forest boosters threw their weight around attempting to land any number of high profile coaches, who all laughed at them. They hired Jeff Bzdelik and immediately became arguably the worst team in ACC history.
College sports are all about money. Schools with the most money are the teams that consistently win. Unfortunately, the way schools account for expenses varies at every institution. So there's no way to compare exact expenses. But the revenues are trackable. In fact, the US Dept of Education requires it. So before FSU fires its coach it would be good to know what to expect. Certainly FSU isn't competing on a level playing field with Duke. Or UNC. Or Maryland. But what about the rest? Well, in the ACC, FSU is dead last. 12 of 12. So FSU, despite having the 3rd or 4th best program in the conference, should fire their coach because the fans don't like the way the offense looks? (the football equivalent would be Duke firing their head coach because he could only use defense to turn them into the 3rd best gridiron program in the conference) Who is going to explain that in the interview? Why yes Mr Stevens, we know you could go to some other program and double your salary, but we do expect you to come here instead and compete in the ACC despite having the fewest resources (and competing doesn't mean 3rd!) and if your competing doesn't look pleasant enough then you're canned.
There's a reason a common coaching axiom goes like this: if you start listening the fans, pretty soon you'll be sitting with them.
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Most win games against Florida and Harvard
Cannot lose to Harvard or the Harvard of the South
The Seminoles are still America's team
Can there be one with soul so dead whose heart does not leap at the sigh of Renegade and the flaming spear
Harvard of the South
I hate losing to Miami.
DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUVAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL!
by DownTownJax on Jan 12, 2012 9:12 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I wanted Ham fired a few years ago. But he keeps making steady progress, and we always have the same discussions every year. This season has been pretty ugly, but with how our BBall seasons go I wouldn’t be surprised if we turned it on at the end of the year.
My photo appeared in the Nightlife photo collage of the FSView for six weeks in-a-row. That’s who I am.
I wanted him gone as well, but it's simply out of the equation right now
by Michael Rogner on Jan 11, 2012 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
keep him
just make him hire a real offensive assistant
Hamilton D is the same thing to Bobby B O in the 80’s it wasnt until coach andrews came that we start wining, we need the same kind of thing for our bbal program
"We’re going to shoot for perfection every day, knowing full well we’ll never achieve it. But in the meantime we’ll find excellence" James "Jimbo" Fisher FSU Head Coach
by ColombianNole on Jan 11, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
Good point
These writers (not you Michael) need to realize that there isn’t just two options: fire Hamilton or Don’t fire Hamilton. Other measures could be taken to improve our BBall program, right?
Formerly known as 'stilts'
I think Mike has hinted at the fact that this offense IS Ham's
And no matter who we bring in, it’s unlikely to look much different than it already does.
I would think that said measures have already been implemented…
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman.
YEah basketball
On a more serious not though,
It’s interesting to me because I think of FSU as a football school and not a basketball school but we are in a basketball division. What would are basketball team look like of if FSU was in the SEC?
Winning is good. Watching Ham's team is hard
Yes, we are going to the big dance on D but if you want to put fannies in the seats, hire someone on the staff that can coach our guys on what to do when we have the ball. Turnovers are killing us but D is saving our butts
Yeah, I’m thoroughly asswhipped by the groundhog dayishness of each season.
My photo appeared in the Nightlife photo collage of the FSView for six weeks in-a-row. That’s who I am.
This is how I feel.
I’m not even close to being in the “fire Ham” crowd, but it is beyond frustrating, especially since we’re acutely aware of how talented these recruits are.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman.
Totally agree with the article
Every time I see a “fire Coach Hamilton” discussion I listen to their reasoning and they don’t make sense, I’m sure you can come up with a few reasons why you can but they wouldn’t trump why he is good at FSU right now.
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I agree. It is hard to get rid of a coach, based on anything other than wins and losses.
I love and hate that Ham does enough to keep his job. I love that I get to see my Noles play in the tourney. I love that at any time they can upset the best teams in the country. I hate that they can lay the ugliest egg/turd of a game also. I mean sometimes its absolutely embarrassing. These horrible showings are inevitable with this team and unacceptable.
This feeling of being in a rut of unentertaining, mediocre bball does get old, but the bottom line is hard to deny. FSU makes the tourney lately. Hamilton didnt agree to entertain anyone in his contract. With that said I would like to see a different brand of basketball and more consistency which can only come from a new staff and a revamped system imo.
"I dont hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around." -Bukowski
by cerebralfish on Jan 12, 2012 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
Nice work Michael!
I enjoy reading your write ups. Keep doing a great job!
by hookermctitties on Jan 11, 2012 10:08 PM EST reply actions
Very well written Michael, nice work
We were all created to be Seminoles. This is why we bleed garnet and piss gold.
by NoleThruandThru on Jan 11, 2012 10:14 PM EST reply actions
As I was writing this up Pitt scored 39, at home, against a CIT team
by Michael Rogner on Jan 11, 2012 10:15 PM EST reply actions
I'm divided
In the humble opinion of somebody who was probably closer to the team than most anyone on this site, I think Coach Ham is a tough coach for fans to love. He gets highly regarded kids, he gets them to play hard for the most part (especially on D) and finally, what probably goes overlooked and underappreciated the most is how genuine Coach Ham is with respect to these kids success in life while in school and afterwards. Certainly, I’m not making excuses because it comes down to wins and money therefrom, but he is a great coach in all of those aforementioned respects, not to mention that his teams are always close to tops nationally in D. I dont even necessarily fault Coach for the offenses he puts out NEARLY as much as for his inaction in replacing the coaches responsible for that side of the ball. Go on and read the bios of our offensive coaches; most are “qualified.” But Coaches loyalty to them – to a fault – is where I take issue. I have NO problem with Ham staying here, but he should be given an ultimatum to hire some offensive minds that can get the job done or leave, NOT to actually run him off but to nudge him to the sad reality that his friends/coaches aren’t getting the job done, and that is reprehensible.
"But they understand expectations don’t win games. And just because you’re picked to win, they don’t give you the trophy when the season starts. And we tell our kids that we have to form great habits and have great work ethic and form our identity as a team. We just have to reinforce that everyday because as we tell them, the pressure of expectations is only there if we aren’t prepared for them. If we prepared for them and we’re prepared mentally and physically, the pressure of the expectation won’t bother us." - Jimbo Fisher
by Sem1nole on Jan 11, 2012 10:20 PM EST via mobile reply actions
When I watch our games the shots are available. The lanes are available. The passes are available.
FSU just doesn’t recruit highly skilled offensive players. Ham only recruits kids with next level size and athleticism because that’s who he needs to make his defense function at such an elite level. But kids in that category who ALSO have developed offensive games don’t go to programs like FSU. They go to Kentucky, UCLA, UConn, UNC, Duke, etc…. When FSU lucked into one (Al Thornton, because other schools didn’t recognize his skills) FSU ended up with a top-25 offense.
I’ve played at a high level and coached high school for many years. That certainly doesn’t make me an expert, but I really don’t think the offensive woes are rooted in poor coaching.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 11, 2012 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I see the same things when I watch the games
And certainly your point regarding recruiting is true. In fact, just the other day, some friends of mine were discussing why elite basketball recruits would want to go to FSU and they all agreed that they would never even consider FSU for basketball. Now, I personally wouldn’t go that far, but the point rings true that this is a football school and basketball will never be funded enough or be able to achieve the national acclaim of those programs that you mentioned. The fact that we’re even as “good” as we are says something about Hamilton’s ability to coach. But at some point, either Hamilton needs to take a “risk” on a purely offensive recruit and use his proven skills to develop him to conform as closely as possible to his defense requirements, or Hamilton needs to find coaches with enough ability to turn these defensive recruits that Ham so wants into serviceable offensive players, both individually and as a unit. Certainly shots are there, but when they consistently fail to go in over the course of years, you have to look at the offensive coaching. If James Wilder misses the open hole over the course of his entire career here, the person that would likely be most culpable would be Gran and then Jimbo for not making Gran fix it or finding someone else that can do it. I realize our resources to find an elite offensive mind are limited, but with the results we’re getting, I would have no problem taking a chance on a hot mid-major candidate.
"But they understand expectations don’t win games. And just because you’re picked to win, they don’t give you the trophy when the season starts. And we tell our kids that we have to form great habits and have great work ethic and form our identity as a team. We just have to reinforce that everyday because as we tell them, the pressure of expectations is only there if we aren’t prepared for them. If we prepared for them and we’re prepared mentally and physically, the pressure of the expectation won’t bother us." - Jimbo Fisher
He's never going to recruit Scott Wood.
But the other option is to continue to elevate the program to the point that players with offensive skills AND NBA size see FSU as an attractive place to go. And I think Ian Miller and Terry Whisnant fit that mold.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 11, 2012 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
Miller has look atrocious on D lately, no?
dont know about Whisnant yet, but Miller looks totally disinterested in playing D at all.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
yes, awful IMO
YMCA stuff. Let your man dribble right by you on the baseline and then do the old reach around to slap the ball out. Whisnant seems more earnest and looks to be hustling to me. Just not sure yet what he should be doing.
On this particular topic...
Could the recruitment of Miller and Whisnant possibly point to Ham realizing that he needs to insert some more offensively minded athletes into his system, even though they probably won’t perform at the same level defensively (especially Miller)?
I mean, it’s not like completely ignoring the trend. He seems to be trying at least to rectify the issue
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman.
Not at all.
Freshmen rarely play in Ham’s systems, because freshmen rarely can play defense. Landing recruits like Miller and Whisnant means that AAU handlers have taken notice that Ham’s reputation amongst NBA scouts is sterling. Now they’re beginning to steer kids this way SO they can boost their chances at the next level by learning proper defensive principles.
That’s huge. His elite recruits used to have psychological disorders. Now they’re weak at moving their feet on D.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 11, 2012 11:20 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
psychological disorders?
like low self-esteem or being weak-willed?
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
wha???
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Miller and Whisnant certianly come to mind, and Snaer as well
But again, I’m hard pressed to be able to formulate an argument that Snaer has developed offensively since he’s been here. It is impossible for me to make that judgment about Miller or Whisnant, so I won’t bother. But Snaer is a prime example of the lack of offensive development for a player so skilled. I’ve mentioned this before on this site, but if you gave Snaer to Roy Williams, he might be leading the nation in scoring. Sure, Williams is one of the best offensive minds in the country, but I’ve spoken with people in the business that believe Snaer has REGRESSED since his arrival here. I’ll leave that to the opinion of people with more time to make a fair judgment after rewatching tape, but I certainly had higher hopes for Snaer offensively. One can blame Snaer for making bad decisions (although I believe that still falls on coaching) or one can blame luck (which I despise) but in the end, I believe a chance in the offensive coaching of this team would do wonders.
"But they understand expectations don’t win games. And just because you’re picked to win, they don’t give you the trophy when the season starts. And we tell our kids that we have to form great habits and have great work ethic and form our identity as a team. We just have to reinforce that everyday because as we tell them, the pressure of expectations is only there if we aren’t prepared for them. If we prepared for them and we’re prepared mentally and physically, the pressure of the expectation won’t bother us." - Jimbo Fisher
Regressed? The data most definitely disagrees.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 11, 2012 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
Again, not saying I agree but I've heard it more than once from people that know what they're talking about
If not regressed, I’d certainly agree that he hasn’t developed nearly to his potential. It’s frustrating and I don’t blame Ham for it, but I think a coaching change on offense from a young, talented mind could do wonders.
"But they understand expectations don’t win games. And just because you’re picked to win, they don’t give you the trophy when the season starts. And we tell our kids that we have to form great habits and have great work ethic and form our identity as a team. We just have to reinforce that everyday because as we tell them, the pressure of expectations is only there if we aren’t prepared for them. If we prepared for them and we’re prepared mentally and physically, the pressure of the expectation won’t bother us." - Jimbo Fisher
When he arrived he couldn't even initiate a dribble without traveling.
And coach Enfield had to completely rebuild his shooting motion, not only his ball and arm position, but the way his lower body entered the shot and the angle at which he took it. Now, his offensive rating has consistently increased year by year and he’s the best perimeter defender in the ACC and it’s not even close. If people are pointing to Snaer as an example of Ham sucking, then they’re pointing in the wrong direction. They should look to Gibson or Kreft instead.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 11, 2012 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
Agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment regarding Gibson
I had such high hopes for him. I do like the shot skills that Enfield provides, as it is what he is known for. But in team sports, it is almost the reverse of the old saying “the whole is only as good as the sum of its parts.” Our offensive coaches need to be able to make big-picture changes that also affect the way our guys play together and run a system that allows for greater offensive success. There is no excuse for our turnover percentage.
"But they understand expectations don’t win games. And just because you’re picked to win, they don’t give you the trophy when the season starts. And we tell our kids that we have to form great habits and have great work ethic and form our identity as a team. We just have to reinforce that everyday because as we tell them, the pressure of expectations is only there if we aren’t prepared for them. If we prepared for them and we’re prepared mentally and physically, the pressure of the expectation won’t bother us." - Jimbo Fisher
I have a hard time with Snaer.
I look at the guys around him in the recruiting rankings. Many are in the NBA or killing it in college.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman.
But have not improved at all, seemingly
In the two areas that keep us from winning against top competition, Turnover/game/% and ft %,
by realnole1128 on Jan 12, 2012 9:56 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, i agree with Mike here
Snaer has absolutely gotten better on offense since his arrival, no question about it. would he be better at an offensive coach’s school? sure, but he wouldnt be nearly as good on defense. thats the trade-off.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
What if he had gone to say, UK?
Calipari hs been able to get those elite offensive freshmen to play amazing D.
by floundringaround on Jan 12, 2012 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
Which is why he's at a highly prestigious program.
You simply cant compare Ham to Calipari. Thats kinda silly.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman.
by CornNole on Jan 12, 2012 11:51 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Like comparing Vanderbilt football to the Gators/Bama.
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
Al was a no-star recruit on Rivals, and a 3 star on Scout
he picked FSU over Cincinnati, if that puts it into perspective. not only did the better schools not recognize him, NOBODY did. oh, and Al was Ham’s first recruit at FSU. odds of finding that guy again are slim to none in the age of multiple scouts and free youtube promotion.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
But what about the guys that we DO pull away from those programs? They never seem to pan out offensively either.
I mean, you’ve got Snaer, who was a 5 star recruit. We beat out Kentucky for Singleton’s services. Uche picked us over UNC. None of those guys excelled offensively.
We constantly struggle to do the basics on offense: protect the ball and shoot well. We turn it over WAY too much and we miss open/easy shots WAY too much. I’ve got to put a good portion of that on the coaching.
by seminoleballer on Jan 11, 2012 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
But we are recruiting Andrew Wiggins
Cyberpunk - a lifestyle characterized by computer games, internet surfing, and large doses of attitude.
by FSUcyberpunk on Jan 12, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Doesnt a change in recruiting have to happen before the offense changes?
Even with a different offensive coach, I dont see many scorers on this team. Virtually no shot creators. I think the bigs play very hard but seem out of control and frantic down low. They throw shots up hoping they fall and then crash the offensive boards. I just dont see much offensive skill on this team. I see great size and some good shooters, but not much skill.
"I dont hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around." -Bukowski
by cerebralfish on Jan 12, 2012 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
Oh Ham...
Nice piece.
I admit that I’ve wished for Coach Ham’s firing on more than one occasion after witnessing a brutal turnover-fest filled with point-blank scoop passes and a lot of over-dribbling.
However, this Saturday I’ll be making my first trip to Tallahassee on a basketball road trip since I graduated. ESPN will be there. I kind of agree with a lot of the Flambaue’s frustrations but I have to admit…TV, butts in seats…something is going right with the program.
Somehow, someway…we have to learn to embrace this “roll the ball out” offense. Until we miss the tourney a few years in a row, then we should fire Ham.
Sounds like the opposite of my Knicks, great offensive head coach, crappy defense
He’s forced to hire a defensive minded assistant, and the d improves, as the stars work harder on that side of the ball as opposed to constantly winning a shoot-out. The d still needs work, but you can see the improvement and where the team may be heading in coming seasons.
I think this needs to apply to Coach Ham. He needs to be forced, as has been said above, to hire an offensive coach. There is no reason why a team can not be good on both sides. I am a Nole football fan but a ‘Quse basketball fan, and can see, especially this year, both sides of the ball merging. And any one of the guys can step up and be “the guy” offensively, but they play as a team, which is the path FSU can use. You don’t need, as the editor wrote, a star guy, just a team effort where, at times, one guy may take over. But do you really want that? Just knowing that we can rely on multiple guys as opposed to one is of great comfort, and why we are undefeated this year.
"I spent 90 percent of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted!"
FSU can't compete with Syracuse for players. That's just a fact.
Boeheim can hand select kids that fit his offensive and defensive philosphophies. FSU isn’t anywhere near that point.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 11, 2012 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
It must be nice to be a Syracuse fan.
They are so much fun to watch
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman.
Agreed - LOVE watching them play
I think you and I have spoken about that in the past.
That UConn/Cuse game a few years ago that went into a million overtimes was so fantastic. After work that night, I went out for (a ton of) beers, on my way home stopped for some chinese food, and then plopped myself on the couch for that game. It was honestly heaven. I was flipping out, pork fried rice was everywhere!
Yes, but I'll bet they think the same thing about FSU football.
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
It's awesome
Went to a game over the fall break at the Dome! They just smoked Seton Hall
The Funk Phenomenon.
Never understood being a fan of different colleges in different sports
If the cuse was playing FSU, you would want the Noles to lose? Get off my TN now sir!!
by New Mexico Nole on Jan 12, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
I don't get that one either.
Unless you actually went to both schools.
Come and see the violence inherent in the system!!!
Born and raised a fan of one school and attended another
I was born and raised that the sky is Carolina Blue because God likes Carolina. Yet I attended FSU. I can stop pulling for the team I grew up pulling for, but I’m not just gonna drop my alma mater. When FSU and UNC play I route for a good game.
Except
You should probably root for a good game rather than route.
As a network engineer, I know that routing will get you nowhere.
Of course, I should shut up b/c I root for both the Bucs and the Patriots in the NFL.
I am from New York, but spent a lot of time during my youth in Miami
Being in different places when you’re young shapes your allegiances differently than someone in the same place, I guess. FSU gets good players, yes not on the level of ‘Quse, but still, it’s not like FSU recruits crap. It’s the philosophy I’m looking at.
"I spent 90 percent of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted!"
Went to FSU undergrad
Syracuse Grad. FSU wins out if they’re playing not really a competition.
The Funk Phenomenon.
While this:
“But the revenues are trackable. In fact, the US Dept of Education requires it.”
Is true, those numbers are just about useless. No uniformity on how schools have to report revenue.
Knowing is half the battle, the other half is violence.
True, but multiple source have looked at it from every angle,
and FSU is always at or near the bottom in ACC hoops
by Michael Rogner on Jan 11, 2012 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
But Ham is up there with top paid coaches isn't he?
Knowing is half the battle, the other half is violence.
by onebarrelrum on Jan 11, 2012 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
Somewhere around 50-55th.
The ‘famous’ US Today article is complete garbage
by Michael Rogner on Jan 11, 2012 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks for clearing that up
this is the first I heard that it wasn’t credible (last weeks discussion). Where do you find the actual accurate data?
"I wish you loved me as much as you love TomahawkNation!"
""--;;--ⒻⓁⓄⓇⒾⒹⒶ-ⓈⓉⒶⓉⒺ--;;-->
by freshcollegeboy on Jan 12, 2012 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
So what if this year is the first year of a 3 or 4 year slide
by the end of which FSU has a couple seasons in a row not even remotely close to the bubble? Is the firing then OK?
Knowing is half the battle, the other half is violence.
This is what worries me.
This program has a ton of momentum, IMO. More than ever. Why? Lenny.
What I fear happening is the ACC returning to form. Outside of Duke/UNC, this conference has completely “flipped”. I never thought I’d see the day when Wake Forest, GT, and BC were at the bottom while Clemson beat our ass by 20 points.
The aforementioned teams plus Maryland, NCSU used to be some of the top programs in the country. If they get their stuff turned around, I’m not sure the current formula will be enough to consistently keep us dancing.
I’m one of the “basketball guys”. Never miss games…haven’t in about 6 years now. Got beer thrown on me in the ODome for being THAT guy during an FSU basketball game a couple of years ago.
I “like” where we are right now, but I fear we’re approaching the ceiling at light speed. What happens when we reach it and the rest of the ACC catches up?
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman.
If FSU admin doesn't put more money into the program then it's inevitable.
Wake Forest can’t expect to compete in football every year.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 11, 2012 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
Right.
The best possible thing for him to do would be to retire at the perfect time, when the scenario DOES come about.
I know some people would be happy, but even the most hater of haters couldn’t deny that he saved Florida State Basketball, and deserves some GD respect.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman.
Wake is an apt comparison
their game isnt pretty, and the players arent exactly stars, but they win every so often anyway. the difference is that we can recruit better athletes than they can, but those athletes would have to play both sides of the ball instead of the mix and match (which wont work, since it would break down the defensive efforts if we have 2-3 weak links on the floor). but yes, we have experienced Wake-like success when compared to our money and reputation, and we should thank our own Jim Grobe for making something out of nothing. if Wake fired Grobe, who would want that job? nobody really wants it right now anyway…
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
by nole07 on Jan 11, 2012 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well
The man does get paid over $2 million (inexplicably). It’s not all bad over at Wake for the HC.
Dan Patrick: "Is Ponder a good name for a quarterback?"
Christian Ponder: "Why? Because you say I overthink things? is that what you’re trying to imply? As crazy as it sounds, my mom’s maiden name is actually SuperBowlWinner. Isn’t that crazy?"
DP: "Now is that hyphenated?"
CP7: "No, it’s all one word."
Salary vs resources
His salary dictates he is doing an excellent job with poor resources and very stringent academic demands.
Such a simple analogy
but really puts it in perspective. You’re exactly right. We’re the Wake Forest of ACC basketball, and might as well learn to like it if you can’t love it.
I get as frustrated as anyone else, but it’s not just a three game tournament run. We’ve gotten the shaft, and gotten bad luck with opponents losses, etc. With some smarter scheduling and a little bit of a break from the committee, we could easily be in a 5 out of 6 year run or something.
I’m of the opinion that we should look at our basketball as realistically as we expect Maryland and Wake Forest and BC to look at their football. Look at post-Friedgen Maryland. Folks, it isn’t going to get a whole lot better than this. Yes, it could be a lot prettier, but FSU isn’t going to consistently play better than third in this conference over any five year period.
The thing that I find most laughable is that even in the absolute best case scenario, and we found a hot young coach that actually improved on Ham’s success somehow for a 2-3 year period, he’d be moving up and on immediately. FSU is not a basketball last stop.
I don’t think you consider firing Hamilton until he misses two tournaments in a row. Putting FSU in the dance every two out of three years is enough to keep this job. We may not like it, but it is.
Maryland football seems to be a good analogy
The Fridge was considered too old and too inconsistent so right after the team had their best year in nearly a decade, he gets canned. Who do you think is going to want to come in to that program? Nobody that is going to bring any excitement, for sure.
So Coach Ham can stay until he’s 70 as far as I’m concerned if he keeps the level of FSU basketball where it is. Right now our program has a low ceiling but I’m afraid our floor is still lower than some think, so the longer we can get Ham to get consistent butts in seats, recruits slowly filing in, than our floor and ceiling will both be raised. Getting rid of the coach and bringing in an unknown seems too big a risk, and we may end up with some dreadful seasons like Maryland FB is currently facing.
"I’m afraid our floor is still lower than some think"
Excellent point, I think you’re right. When you see what’s happened to schools like WF, Maryland, NC State, etc over recent years, the floor for ACC schools is a lot lower than what people want to believe. And those are basketball schools.
Think how much lower our floor is.
Vanderbilt has your fix. Just raise the floor.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 12, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Wow.
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
I like that
let’s do that.
"I wish you loved me as much as you love TomahawkNation!"
""--;;--ⒻⓁⓄⓇⒾⒹⒶ-ⓈⓉⒶⓉⒺ--;;-->
by freshcollegeboy on Jan 12, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
True, I think a lot of success the past couple
years can also be attributed to the slide of the ACC.
Knowing is half the battle, the other half is violence.
by onebarrelrum on Jan 11, 2012 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
In the past three seasons the ACC has been ranked 2nd, 1st and 4th by Pomeroy.
The “slide” is greatly overrated by media who think RPI is meaningful.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 11, 2012 10:57 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Seriously?!?!?!?!
How in the world was the ACC above the BE in the past 3 years?
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman.
In 2010 the entire ACC was top-75
Big East was very very good, but still had to deal with USF, Depaul, Rutgers, Providence. The media seems to forget that the Big East has 16 teams to choose from.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 11, 2012 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you for this
Finally something to back up what my eyes have been telling me, that the ACC isn’t what it used to be but is still elite in basketball.
by BobLoblaw113 on Jan 12, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
It will be dominant with Pittsburgh and Syracuse.
Could be scary.
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
UVA is looking Very good right now, too.
They were in the Duke game last nite right to the end. Could’ve tied if either of the three’s they jacked up as time expired had gone in.
have you seen espn's recruiting rankings lately?
not sure how reliable espn is (don’t get as caught up in bball recruiting), but 7 teams not named duke or unc from next year’s acc are in the top 25 classes; scary
"If St. George would have killed a dragonfly instead of a dragon, who would have remembered him?" - Fredric March, Inherit the Wind
You got a beer thrown on you in Stinktown??
I love you man!
by New Mexico Nole on Jan 12, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
I don't keep up with basketball much
But the passion you write with about it is moving. It makes me interested to see what it is all about. Great writers have a tendency to do that I think, to people who normally wouldn’t care.
Tomahawk nation is spoiled to have you Michael.
'Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football.' John Heisman
Also,
Take this:
Leonard Hamilton has made the game of basketball boring for his players. It is no longer fun. With all the focus on defense, Hamilton has vacuumed all the excitement away from offense.
and change it to:
Leonard Hamilton has made the game of basketball boring for the fans. It is no longer fun. With all the focus on defense, Hamilton has vacuumed all the excitement away from offense.
and he would have a very valid point. This team, with all the turnovers, is excruciating to watch. It is just flat out horrible.
Knowing is half the battle, the other half is violence.
by onebarrelrum on Jan 11, 2012 10:44 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Agreed 100%.
Watching FSU basketball is like watching the first half of the Notre Dame game.
by CFCNole on Jan 11, 2012 10:52 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Strange then that we're experiencing all-time attendance highs,
especially in a football trough. And as you know, football boosters get the best basketball tickets. It seems to me that those that can’t watch (but continue to do so) are more of a vocal message board minority than representative of the fanbase on the whole.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 11, 2012 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
the whiners are always more prominent when times get tough
they come out of the woodwork to “recognize” whats wrong with the team, while the real fans watch week in and week out and know whats going on
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
I haven't been calling for Ham's head.
And I agree with Michael’s premise. It is an excellent and intelligent article. I have followed FSU basketball since before Hugh Durham; coach Bud Kennedy and a center named Gary Schull. We ran the “Aubun Shuffle.” One of my buddies was a benchwarmer on the 1966 team, Dave Ross. I attended the head-to-head in Tully between JU (and Artis Gilmore) and FSU (and Dave Cowens). I also saw Otto Petty and Reggie King play in person. I played pick-up ball with Reggie Royals and was stuffed trying a reverse layup, from across the rim in front, in Tully, by Willie Williams. I gave Skip Young a ride to the Hill. I saw John Burt make the most amazing stuff off a free throw that I have ever seen in my life. I played PE softball-basketball in the same class with Jan Geiss.
Call me a whiner if you like, but Hamball is very, very, tough to watch when we are making the aforementioned no-looks to the cheerleaders.
Dogs bark in the night but the caravan moves on.
by fmnole on Jan 12, 2012 5:02 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd for Otto Petty and Reggie King!
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
attendance at all time
High coming off 2 trips to the tourney. People had expectations for this year. People bought tickets. Instead the turnovers are worse, defense hasn’t played at the consistent quality level to bail the team out, and Ham has said this is the most disappointed he has ever been with a fsu bball team. If fsu flops this year, it won’t be a leap to think a significant number of season tickets won’t be renewed next year. For as fickle as people think football fans are, just see what happens if this bball season turns into a full face flop. I agree, there is a level of reality fans need to understand, but I also don’t want fans thinking that ham is untouchable and will be here indefinitely or has the right to be. I’m not even saying get rid of him if this year is a flop. But if he does flop after getting rid of some of the dead weight on the team and some of these younger guys are key players, then I hope there is a very vocal majority saying maybe it is time to move on. He might be a victim of his own success, but once a coach has proved a certain level of play is attainable, he puts it on himself to try and at least maintain. I like ham. He’s kind of a nut. I hope fsu turns it around this year and by mid acc play and the flambeau writer looks even worse.
Knowing is half the battle, the other half is violence.
by onebarrelrum on Jan 12, 2012 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
I completely disagree...
I think it’s more exciting, you never know which FSU basketball team will show up, the one who beat Duke last year, the crazy good defense that makes amazing offenses look scared, the turnover filled terrible offense or the one where everyone seems to be clicking so it keeps you wanting to watch. I can’t wait to watch Saturday’s game against North Carolina, we will either look terrible losing to them, or we can come out dominating and winning the game. I have spoken to many fans and there is no one who thinks it’s a definite win for UNC, we’ll just have to wait and see what FSU does and that keeps it exciting.
I believe it depends on what you expect from the basketball program.
If you expect them to have a pulse than Coach Ham has done an excellent job.
If you expect this team to perform at a top 50 level than Coach Ham has done an excellent job.
if you expect for this team to compete for NCAA tourney bids than Coach Ham has done an excellent job.
If you you expect this team to compete and win ACC titles well…
If you expect this team to compete for national titles well…
All about expectations and mine for this basketball team are compete for tourney bids every year.
My prediction for 2011 is 12-2 (6-2)
I expect to be in contention for the National Title but a late loss will bounce us out of it. We should finish in the Top 5 and win the whole thing EJ's senior year. Legal_Seminole 01/09/2011
by Legal_Seminole on Jan 11, 2012 10:55 PM EST reply actions
As someone who has coached basketball
Watching our team play offense is frustrating, and the lack of “flow” is something I see in Rec Leagues.
My prediction for 2011 is 12-2 (6-2)
I expect to be in contention for the National Title but a late loss will bounce us out of it. We should finish in the Top 5 and win the whole thing EJ's senior year. Legal_Seminole 01/09/2011
by Legal_Seminole on Jan 11, 2012 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
No.
He has raised my expectations, but I do not expect to compete for the ACC title or the national title.
My prediction for 2011 is 12-2 (6-2)
I expect to be in contention for the National Title but a late loss will bounce us out of it. We should finish in the Top 5 and win the whole thing EJ's senior year. Legal_Seminole 01/09/2011
by Legal_Seminole on Jan 11, 2012 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed.
We chuckle at Wake, BC, Maryland fans who believe they should win the ACC consistently. Us expecting to consistently unseat Dook/UNC is essentially the same thing (if not worse)
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman.
by CornNole on Jan 11, 2012 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
FSU is hard to watch...not just on O
…but bricking at the charity stripe with the game on the line. Hit 1 lousy free throw and FSU beats UCONN and Princeton making this discussion more one sided. FSU at 11-4 this year is a LOT more impressive than last year.
My expectations is the Tourney every year. Hamilton has delivered that recently, so in my mind his job is safe. With the way he is recruiting, and the Defense he can coach, anything can happen in the NCAA…..ask George Mason University.
"You're either carrying a spear, or running from it"
by BigSpearDiplomacy on Jan 12, 2012 6:44 AM EST up reply actions
One thing you forgot to mention is
the things out of Ham’s control, like Singleton and Alabi leaving early. What do you think this team would look like had they stayed? The word fear comes to mind. I’d like a new coach just as much as the next guy, but we would have to get a better coach and I’m not sure there is one out there right now.
We're not the only team that loses players early
If Kentucky’s players stayed all year, college would look a lot more like the NBA.
Glad you mentioned Sendek
When I lived in Raleigh (the last six years of Sendek’s tenure there) I used to argue like hell with NC St. fans about Sendek. They always complained about the style of offense they ran or how they rarely beat Duke or UNC despite making the tournament five years in a row (which only tied the school record I might add). I told them I would trade losses to Miami and Florida with the ugliest offense imaginable every year IF it guaranteed FSU a spot in the tournament every year. And those fans didn’t care. They eventually won and effectively ran Sendek out of town and have sucked since.
I don’t care enough about FSU basketball to truly have a dog in the fight for whether or not Ham stays. But as long as he gets us into the tournament, I’ll be a happy camper.
Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
I'm pretty sure Sendek was fired because his face scared little children
Which hurt attendance.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman.
by CornNole on Jan 11, 2012 11:01 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Well played sir.
Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
It will be interesting to re-vist this post and comments once the season is over
I agree with Coach Ham getting someone to focus on offense. It is frustrating to see that Coach Ham’s overall talent is being diminished because he lacks the sense of reality that our offensive strategy is unacceptable.
He has taken our program to new levels without a doubt but we should continue to raise the bar and not make excuses for our lack of success.
With only a moderate improvement in our offense, our road to comptetitive top 25 play is sure to follow.
by MarchingChiefsRock on Jan 11, 2012 11:34 PM EST reply actions
I'd be interested to know what is wrong with the offensive strategy or game plans?
by Michael Rogner on Jan 11, 2012 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
Does our "motion" offense really work?
Although I’ve watched a whole lot of basketball over the years, you clearly have a far greater understanding of the detailed Xs and Os, and I would love to see you do a breakdown of exactly what our offensive strategy is. I’ve heard for years about this motion offense that Hamilton employs, but I have a hard time telling what it is that this strategy is attempting to accomplish a lot of the time.
I’d also love to see you break down how it is that we turn the ball over with such remarkable consistency year after year after year.
My unprofessional opinion is that at least part of it is attributable to Ham not benching players who turn it over immediately (obviously, not for every TO but certainly for those “passes to the cheerleaders”). I recognize that there aren’t a lot of better options on the bench as far as this goes, but I’ve noticed that any blatant defensive lapse will mean a ticket to the pine, but Hamilton seems to have a much longer rope when it comes to terrible offensive mistakes.
I'm trying to figure out how to get HD video from my tv to my laptop.
Once I get that, I’ll break down the X’s and O’s to show that our offense actually does a decent job (not great, but not bad) at putting players in position to score.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 12, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
A point guard would help, right?
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
HD PVR
http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr.html
Cyberpunk - a lifestyle characterized by computer games, internet surfing, and large doses of attitude.
by FSUcyberpunk on Jan 12, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
Wow - any idea if that works with Directv boxes?
by Michael Rogner on Jan 12, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
Yes according to the sites I'm reading
http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/260268-transfer-recording-dvr-computer-3.html
I have this and it works great on cable. Here’s another discussion.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1317647
A couple of more
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1373241
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1055232
Hopefully that helps. I love your commentary and visit your site as well as this one everyday.
Cyberpunk - a lifestyle characterized by computer games, internet surfing, and large doses of attitude.
by FSUcyberpunk on Jan 12, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
Since I ride the technology short bus, let me make sure I have this straight:
- I hook the Hauppauge PVR to my Directv box and record on it
- I transfer the files from the PVR to my laptop (probably need a better video card?)
- I use a video editing program to create clips
- I use them in a post at TN and everyone says wow that’s awesome
Am I missing something?
by Michael Rogner on Jan 12, 2012 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
I think there's something about WC and Tally Democrat
complaining about showing pics and video. Conspiracy cries about Ham eliminating open competition; we will have to rely on his laments for news on how games went.
That's right
If you use VLC you can take pictures or stream video to other devices.
You hook the HD PVR to your component out and that avoids having to deal with DMR encryption in the video stream. If you need any help with your video after it’s on your computer check here: http://www.videohelp.com/
Plenty of tools (some free) and advice. Also look here: http://forum.doom9.org/
I’m not an expert by any means that’s why I use these sites.
Cyberpunk - a lifestyle characterized by computer games, internet surfing, and large doses of attitude.
by FSUcyberpunk on Jan 12, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
Nice post and discussion
I have followed FSU basketball for years, and as I stated the other day, I’ve just gotten to the point that I can’t bear to watch Ham’s offensively challenged teams anymore. The constant turnovers in particular are excruciating.
Having said all that, Michael makes a very good argument that we can’t expect any better from a coaching change and that there is some reason for hope in the future. And I do think that Coach Ham is a stand-up guy, which is a lot more than I can say for some of the other folks in his business.
I just wish he could get his teams to play smarter on offense.
GPD: To correct and to serve.
This is an excellent article. Great job!
by FSUjab on Jan 12, 2012 12:13 AM EST via Android app reply actions
All I'm going to say is..
If you do fire him, you better have someone in mind already to take his spot that you are convinced will do better.
If life gives you lemons, go ahead and watch some FSU football.
Excellent read!
Basically what I always think when I see the “Fire Ham” crowd. He has FSU at #3 in the ACC behind FREAKING DUKE AND NORTH CAROLINA. FSU up there with Duke and Carolina? How can anyone be dissatisfied with that? Just because it may be frustrating to watch, it doesn’t change that fact. If the offense was better and the defense worse with the same results, people wouldn’t be so upset.
If you fire Ham who do you go get? FSU is not an elite basketball job. Face it. What Ham has done is outstanding and FSU is lucky he is still here. Don’t act like if Ham is fired things will get better, because barring a miracle, FSU will not continue to progress with out an absolute home run hire.
Great article!
The problem is...
That Hamilton teams always make it just above the mediocrity line. They continually flop in the must win games in the post season.
Last year is a prime example. The way everything played out, FSU actually had a strong shot at bringing a title home, and they couldn’t capitalize. I love the guy, but it may be time for change in Tally.
you'd flop too if the other team had a better shooting percentage beyond the arc than in front
“strong shot at bringing a title home” ???
What is this "strong shot" you speak of sir....
cause I’d like a double!
by NolePlaceLikeHome on Jan 12, 2012 4:41 AM EST up reply actions
Though last year's team was playing on "borrowed time" in the tourny.
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
Unless FSU finishes last in the ACC
Then its simple, you keep him. Who are these people that think FSU must do better at basketball than this?
Football, Baseball, Track – That is our bread and butter.
Hey, I’ll take a team that might not score a lot of points but plays great defense. If we can notch a win against a Duke or UNC at least once during the season even better. How much more can we really expect from FSU basketball anyway?
by NolePlaceLikeHome on Jan 12, 2012 4:35 AM EST reply actions
FSU Basketball
I love the Seminoles no two ways about it. Been one for nearly 40 years.
I no longer enjoy watching FSU Basketball and not getting to be that way with Football.
I have never enjoyed watching FSU Basketball under Coach Hamilton. The style he coaches is barely above streetball…sloppy inconsistent ball. One week his team beats Duke one week, the next loses to a lousy Auburn team. I just do not enjoy the roller coaster of sloppiness and inconsistency. He has never impressed me with the program and I find it hard be a fan of his program in spite of my love for FSU.
Great Analysis
Ham is not going anywhere. Not since Durham has FSU been this successful. Ham is attracting top level talent because he is placing people in the NBA. However, if defense is going to be his forte, and it is, then it must be on display every game. As Bowden used to say, as well as dozens of basketball coaches, your offense can be off a game and you can’t do anything about it. Defense is something you can control each and every time you take the field (court). Very salient point. If that is so, then as head coach, you have to make sure your boys play defense each and every time they take the court.
I went up and watched the Clemson game. I do not remember seeing our boys so lethargic on defense. They were easily beaten down the court ten times. There were countless uncontested drives to the basket. No one in garnet and gold could contain the big 7 footer for Clemson. My understanding is that he rarely plays and never plays good. Well, he had a breakout game! Couldn’t believe how small Kreft looked compared to him.
Anyway, the point is that if defense is your mantra, you cannot afford to take a night off. Defense will win, as Ham has shown us. It is just that when you take the night off, you look like a high school team.
RWHUGHESJR
Annoyed Sports Radio Host: I'm looking for one brave Gators fan to call, just one. Oh so Gators fans talk trash all the time but when they play a game and lose nobody has the guts to call in?
Leonard: What are Gators?
Henry Desalvo: Football. College.
Confused Sports Radio Call In: I'm a Gators fan.
Annoyed Sports Radio Host: And what do you have to say?
Confused Sports Radio Call In: You said that Gators fans don't have the guts to call in.
Annoyed Sports Radio Host: Your point?
Confused Sports Radio Call In: My point is that I'm calling you now.
Leonard: [notices Snake and Eddie escorting Arthur wearing dark-colored pantyhose on their head] Is that him?
Henry Desalvo: I think we got Gator fans.
The Flambeau has become garbage this year.
I’ve been a casual reader of the flambeau since I’ve been here @fsu and a new regime of writers has really destroyed the paper. It’s one giant editorial section that I find to have little journalistic integrity. Not even when Bowden was let go and emotions were high did the previous regime stoop down to the level of crap that’s being printed right now. What a joke.
When Tim Tebow met Bjoren Werner he was so in awe of his presence that he spontaneously knelt upon one knee and placed his head upon his hand, and Tebowing was born.
I don't wish to digress too far from the discussion of Mr. Rogner's article,
(which, btw, was a superb piece of writing), but the move toward editorialized content isn’t peculiar to the Flambeau. Bianchi and Dave George immediately come to mind as two writers who seem more interested in generating “sound bites” and pithy, snarky little comments that cause an emotional reaction than in researching any “news.”
i'm not too in to the basketball team
but I am down with any article that breaks down the haughty crapiness of the FSView and Florida Flambeau with real facts. Good work.
@andywittman
The FSView
I completely agree with the idea that FSU does not need to fire Hamilton. My reasoning is similar to points you brought up but the biggest thing is that I don’t think we can do better at this point without a major gamble on a young coach. BUT this website is know for its superior high level content and analysis. The FSView is written by students for students. It is a free publication with a circulation of 20,000. I think we could all find articles written by professionals that would cost us money to read with the same errors in reasoning and data (cough, rivals, cough). I just don’t see the reasoning behind bashing an article that is opinion based for the most part when it was probably meant to create interest and intrigue in the program by the students.
Bashing? Was I unfair in my criticism?
Writers understand that putting things out publicly opens them to critcism. I went through the writing program at FSU and got MUCH harsher criticism from my professors than anything I did in this article.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 12, 2012 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
Ok. Fair point
Perhaps bashing is not the correct word. Like I said, I agree with your assessment and don’t feel that Hamilton should be fired. What I was saying was that I don’t go to McDonald’s and expect fine dinning. As someone who was a die hard fan as a student (AL’s PALS represent) I would have loved for more students to care about the program, no matter if their opinion was right or wrong about the direction of the team. I just don’t see the point in poking holes in a story that was probably meant to drawl awareness to a program that deserves better support. Most informed FSU basketball fans realize you are right, but most students who read the FSView are not informed basketball fans.
. I just don’t see the point in poking holes in a story that was probably meant to drawl awareness to a program that deserves better support. Most informed FSU basketball fans realize you are right, but most students who read the FSView are not informed basketball fans.
FSU has had the better support this year than any year prior and attendance is way up. What it needs is for fans to realize what we are and who we have, not some baseless accusations with “facts” that dont point towards a real story. You are right, most those who would read this are not as informed, thus when you write something like this you need to be informed such that you can inform your audience. This was not the case and Michael jumped on him for misleading uninformed people. You dont draw support for a program by misleading them into thinking they deserve fine dining when you attend a basketball school version of McDonalds.
The simple idea is that through this article the student basically claimed Hamilton needs to be fire purely because we dont score well. Please, it mentioned nothing about the history of FSU, nothing about what challenges he faces, and exaggerates faults. I’m not basketball super start, but comparing UVA to UNC to FSU, UVA scores 65.7 points per game, FSU scores 70.7 points per game and UNC drops 86.9. Which team needs to work on offense? Its not the one that scores 65.7 per game.
When you publish something you should always realize its fair game for anyone to respond.
To clarify
I was not comparing our basketball program to McDonalds. What I was trying to say is that when reading the FSView I don’t expect the same type of analysis that I get from Tomahawk Nation. In my analogy TN was ‘fine dinning". With that it is completely fair to respond to anything that is published. I guess I am just surprised to see the reaction to a piece written by an uninformed student. As for the support/attendance, I know what the numbers say but I think most people who have been to games this year would agree that the atmosphere especially regarding the students hasn’t changed much. But that is just what I think.
An assistant editor
writing an opinion piece shouldn’t be ill-informed.
The biggest issue with gameday atmosphere was FSU taking advantage of growing support and removing the Nole Zone for high priced courtside seats. Yes they made money but it removed some of the crazed student atmosphere that was awesome for Duke/UNC/UF
Resources
Just exactly how much money would FSU need to spend to get players to want to come here? I mean, yeah, FSU has been to the tourney the last 3 years and believe me that is freaking awesome. Now that we have gone to the sweet 16 and expectations are where they are how to we move past just getting big athletic kids and get athletic kids with ball handling and shooting skills to come here? So how do we advance our expectations with where we currently sit on resources and talent levels?
It's all about the process
Great post. Thank you!
Can someone explain to me how the revenues are shared within a university (athletic department)? If FSU is one of the top revenue generators for football, but the worst in basketball, are these mutually exclusive? Is there no revenue sharing within an athletic department? If we can afford great football facilities, why can’t we afford decent basketball facilities? Is this because all of our booster money goes to football? Just curious.
I think you may have answered your own question.
Is this because all of our booster money goes to football?
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
Very well written article,,,but,,,
It is time for Ham to go. We will not get any better. I want to be in the sweet 16 every year. I have high expectations and so should FSU. Do we strive for perfection?,,,or will we settle for middle of the road and make excuses. Money, football, Acc etc.
For what reason(s) do you think FSU can possibly do what you want?
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As absurd as a BC fan demanding to finish in the top 10 every year
Or a Maryland fan expecting to play in the ACC Championship at least every three years.
You can want it all you want, but it’s absurd.
Teams that are “in the sweet 16 every year” are the elite of the elite. You can want it all you want, but it’s ridiculous.
For years I've been demanding to be 6'8.
Somehow I’m only 6’1. Probably because I’m making excuses.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 12, 2012 10:02 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
FUNNY! not really
In the words of the great orator, my 13 year old daughter,,,,,,WHATEVER!. To be serious though,,,I know I might seeme like a blow hard or an out of touch fan but I dont feel that I am. Bud, lou and Michael, I respect all three of you. I am serious in the fact that in my world I refuse to accept second tier or even middle of the road. How can each one of you really accept the fact that “this is the best we can do”. Personally, I would rather screw the whole program up trying to be number one then being content with middle of the road. For what reasons do you ask,,,,All of you seem to shoot for just making the tournament, I say we shoot for winning the damn thing. Not to say we will do that obviously but you guys seem happy and content on “one and done”. Not me, just a different mind set. I will not settle for mediocrity in anything. Happy to be part of the greatest FSU web sight there is. You guys make all others look lame. GO NOLES!
I want what is best for the program.
And firing coach Ham right now isn’t it. Your same logic means that Duke should fire its football coach on annual basis.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 12, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Different sport, different atmoshpere
We can and should do better in basketball. Duke cant and should not expect to do better in football.
Why should Duke football not expect to compete for Championships?
by Michael Rogner on Jan 12, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
Ok I accept it
I guess I should not get excited to go the B-ball games because we should not win against better ranked teams and at best we might upset a higher ranked team once or maybe twice a year. Just have to live with these expectations,,,,Really makes me want to buy season tickets next year doesnt it.
And even then, someone else out there would kill to be 6'1
Good analogy. My guess is some fans of histotical ACC teams would kill to be where we are.
Formerly known as Randall W. Spetman.
by CornNole on Jan 12, 2012 12:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
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by freshcollegeboy on Jan 12, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Swee 16 every year
I would kill to be a Sweet 16 team every year. If we never won the national champinship, but could be in the sweet 16 every year, I would consider our program a major success. So many things have to fall just right to win the championship. Being in the final set of teams that might just get hot at the right time, or have the right matchups to put us in the championship game is all you can ask for.
RWHUGHESJR
Annoyed Sports Radio Host: I'm looking for one brave Gators fan to call, just one. Oh so Gators fans talk trash all the time but when they play a game and lose nobody has the guts to call in?
Leonard: What are Gators?
Henry Desalvo: Football. College.
Confused Sports Radio Call In: I'm a Gators fan.
Annoyed Sports Radio Host: And what do you have to say?
Confused Sports Radio Call In: You said that Gators fans don't have the guts to call in.
Annoyed Sports Radio Host: Your point?
Confused Sports Radio Call In: My point is that I'm calling you now.
Leonard: [notices Snake and Eddie escorting Arthur wearing dark-colored pantyhose on their head] Is that him?
Henry Desalvo: I think we got Gator fans.
Being the third best ACC program consistently
Should project to our being a consistent Sweet 16 program.
Great article, MRogner. The Flambeau article brought nothing new to the
discussion about Hamilton, and I thought it used superficial, warmed-over arguments from years past. MRogner’s article brought a heavy does of reality to the situation. I never was in the “fire Hamilton” camp, for the very reasons MRogner mentioned (things could be…and were…a LOT worse). On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with making demands of a man to whom you are paying a good deal of money. Unless you want to be in another Bobby Bowden situation, suggesting that Hamilton’s big success with little resources gives him carte blanche.
The one thing I’d throw into this discussion that has not been mentioned yet is Coach Ham’s age. He’s 63, and while I can see the recruitment of Miller and Whisnant as good signs, the school and athletic program are going to have to consider the reality that being the second-longest tenured coach in the ACC means he is on the tail-end of his coaching career. Does he have the time left to build on the elite defense/Whisnant/Miller base, or is the reality of being a senior citizen amongst some new, young coaches going to get in the way?
Come and see the violence inherent in the system!!!
Really great work Michael
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Bravo.
As someone who has found himself having this discussion at a bar or on the internet more times than I can count, I found this to be an excellent articulation of my position. The FJM style breakdown is always fun too. Unfortunately, I doubt that anything, at this point, will end the debate. I suppose it’s partially the nature of sports that there is always going to be some section of the fan population that wants a new coach, loves the backup quarterback, etc.
All that said great work and thanks for this and all of your other contributions! Probably the best source for FSU basketball on the planet.
Here's the problem...
Florida State basketball has hit it’s peak. Maybe someday I’ll make a fanpost that further breaksdown what I’m about to say and supports it with more facts. However, FSU basketball can’t be expected to perform much better than it has the past 3 seasons. How can anyone expect FSU to finish ahead of Duke or UNC in a typical season when those two programs are ranked in the top 10? It’s just not going to happen. FSU just doesn’t have the resources or tradition for basketball to finish top 10 or 15 on a yearly basis, much less multiple times in a decade. Therefore, finishing #3 in the ACC, behind Duke and UNC is as high as FSU should ever be expected to finish. And ever since ACC expansion, that is where FSU has been.
The problem with the recent success by FSU basketball is that we have a fanbase full of football fans who naturally expect FSU football to win the ACC every year. That’s fine for football, however, those same fans also expect FSU basketball to do the same thing now that FSU is respected in the ACC. You have to draw the line between football and basketball and realize that those two sports aren’t on an even playing field at FSU. What I fear is that Coach Ham created expectations among fans at FSU that are higher than what is possible. In a way, Coach Ham is setting himself up to fail with the success he has had at FSU. Fans are now expecting even more (ACC/National Championships) and that’s unfair. We should congratulate Ham for raising the bar and not be calling for his firing. We are not Duke, UNC, Syracuse, Kentucky, etc…
You are correct
For people with these expectations, I really wonder how long or deep their basketball fandom has run. Do they really understand what we’re dealing with here?
People that want Ham fired because of aesthetic reasons, it’s at least a valid point. It’s damn near unwatchable sometimes. I think it’s a ridiculous attitude to have, but at least it’s an opinion based on something that is factual. It’s absolutely ugly much of the time.
But people that want him fired over pie in the sky expectations are the real problem. Because if FSU fires him and drops back to 5 win ACC seasons, they will just forget we have a basketball team again.
Not all of the ridiculous expectation crowd are johnny-come-lately, but I really think a large percentage must be to not understand our place.
Giving booster money to the Basketball program would be a start.
For people with these expectations, I really wonder how long or deep their basketball fandom has run. Do they really understand what we’re dealing with here?
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Well not even our football program has as much money as they’d like. It’s taking a while to raise money for an indoor practice facility so I don’t expect many boosters to support the basketball program right now. But there certainly is a lack of funding in the basketball program and it’s not Coach Ham’s fault.
Well it expected because UF is winning national titles in basketball
Cyberpunk - a lifestyle characterized by computer games, internet surfing, and large doses of attitude.
by FSUcyberpunk on Jan 12, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
does anyone have a link to show this man the kind of money UF has, compared to our 12/12 ACC teams in basketball?
how about the huge support for the UF basketball team, compared to our sorry support system?
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
This right here is why I love this site...
I’m not the biggest basketball fan, but I like to catch an FSU game when I can, wouldn’t get this type of analysis on FSU basketball anywhere else.
I couldn’t see firing the coach just one season removed from last season’s tournament, but my only question would be can Hamilton keep moving them forward especially with the coming of ’Cuse and Pitt?
What about all the turnovers?
Season after season Hamilton’s team rank near the bottom in turnovers. What’s the value of a good defense if you’re going to give the ball back to the opponent 20 times a game?! His refusal to recruit a true point guard plays a large role in exacerbating the situation.
The only years FSU basketball will have success is when it happens to bring in a player like Tony Douglas who can put up some point, has natural leadership, and can carry the team on his back.
he doesnt refuse to recruit a true PG, they arent coming here
he realizes the reality of the situation, and focuses most of his efforts on players he can actually get. thats like complaining that your ugly friend isnt bringing in 9’s and 10’s consistently – you should just celebrate it when he manages to do so, but we all know they arent interested for the most part, and it doesnt surprise us when he goes home with a 5 – at least he isnt settling for 2’s and 3’s anymore…
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
But they had Chris Singleton
Besides, you avoid discussing my central point, the bucket loads of turnovers that Hamilton and his staff either refuses to or are incapable of addressing.
Singleton was injured during the tournament. And he wasn’t a guard so he didn’t exactly put the team on his back. He was a defensive player like many other players that come to FSU. Yes, he had more offensive skills than other players at FSU and that’s why he is in the NBA now, but he wasn’t a guy who carried the team.
Turnovers have a lot to do with the players, not the coaches. I agree that lacking a true PG has helped lead to many turnovers but that’s not something to fire a coach over. No matter how you look at it, Coach Ham has brought the program up to the #3 program in the ACC and I don’t think it’s possible to get any better than that when Duke and UNC are holding down the top 2 spots. Expecting us to pass those programs would be like Duke football fans expecting them to become better than FSU in football.
If turnovers happened one year you could say its the players but if it happens year after year after year then it’s definitely the coaches’ fault. He achieved the #3 status for one year— think we’ll be #3 this season?
It’s simple, if he’s going to get paid top 20 money he needs to produce top 20 results consistently.
Valid criticism, and something I consistently point out when people say he's a great recruiter.
But coaches should be judged on wins and losses and how well they run a program. Style points are for discussions at the bar.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 12, 2012 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
Didn't Jimbo mention building a program vs. building a team.
Seems Hamilton has actually done that, yet no where near the support of our Football HC.
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you and go for it.
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
This was the best read on this site all year...
and 2011.
If I could wear a bucs shirt with a noles hat for the rest of my life, by golly I would be the happiest man in the world.
Salary nor program revenues is a better metric
According to this USA Today article Hamilton salary ranks as the 21highest among coaches but with the exception of last year’s results— which is clearly looking like an exception this season— he hasn’t come close to fielding top 20 teams. Almost every other coach and program in the same salary range as Hamilton has had far more and consistent success. FSU is not getting its money’s worth out of Hamilton that other programs are. Maybe if FSU won more consistently there would be more fans in the seats and thus revenues would rise.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2011-coaches-salary-database.htm
You'll notice above I point out that this exact article is complete garbage.
I’ve fought that battle a hundred times before. He’s currently somewhere between 50th and 60th. I think somewhere right at 52 or 53, but it’s hard to tell because some private schools don’t release any data
by Michael Rogner on Jan 12, 2012 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
What schools in particular
have not released their data? The major programs are listed.
2 different issues.
The US Today article is one thing, and it’s garbage for any number of reasons which I’ve outlined several times.
Trying to move forward from there and figure out actual data is where the private school block occurs, as many of them don’t release salary info
by Michael Rogner on Jan 12, 2012 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
With all due respect
you are asking people to take your word for things without providing any objective evidence. You pull the Hamilton’s salary is somewhere “between50th and 60th” out of thin air! You don’t say which private schools are blocking information and what info they might be blocking. I also have a hard time believing that a large university like FSU in a premier league like the ACC would have a hard time competing with a private school when it comes to funding an athletics program.
Athletics as a whole no
FSU put money in football not basketball look at this page in revenue… Something that is actually reported, and you’ll find FSU is dead last in the ACC in basketball revenue yet 6th in the ACC in expenses. Something doesn’t add up there. We are spending as much as we can but you can’t write a check you dont have the money for…
...unless you are the government
they write checks for money we done have all the time, except there is no separate source of revenue (football) from which to pull. we see how that works out for us.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
I've cited salary data ad nauseum in the past.
No need to waste my time rehashing old arguments.
And why wouldn’t private schools have money? You think Notre Dame is struggling to keep up with FSU?
by Michael Rogner on Jan 12, 2012 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
this post shows a profound misunderstanding of how money works in athletics
this is why you dont understand why we are near our current ceiling, and why you having so much trouble accepting that.
also, he didnt say to take his word for it without any objective evidence, he said he has already done so several times. that means the exact opposite of “i have no evidence to support my point”.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
A. Use the reply feature
2.
he hasn’t come close to fielding top 20 teamsYou’re wrong. FSU went to the sweet 16 last year.
D. Salary without resources is completely out of context. We dont have the history and prestige to be an elite team.
I noted last year's success
What resources does FSU not have? While off campus the LCCC is a nice basketball venue with substantial seating capacity. Basketball training facilities were substantially upgraded a few years back. You don’t need substantial history to recruit in basketball like you do in football because you’re only recruiting a couple of dozen players. There are many examples of programs who turned their programs around in a couple of years (e.g., Purdue). I’m not saying we have to be UNC or Duke but we shouldn’t be a perennial bubble team either.
To clarify, I’m not suggesting that Hamilton should be fired immediately. He has clearly brought the program a long way from where it was. But his performance is not consistently commensurate with his salary. We pay him too much to keep doing this two steps forward one step back routine with the bball program.
by Resources I meant Revenue
and ability to spend money.
For instance. Per Michael’s link
Duke had 26 mil in revenue and spent 12 million
UNC had 20 mil in revenue and spent 6 million
FSU had 5 million in revenue and spent all 5 million
Give our football team 20-25% of Clemson’s revenue and see how long we keep a solid staff/build practice facility etc. FSU ranks 12th in the ACC in basketball revenue. FSU can not compete with Duke or UNC. Then add in that Pitt and Cuse are coming and at the absolute best you would be looking at is 5th. The peak of the pyramid is always going to be shorter then UNC and Duke. We should be enthusiastic that Hamilton is producing a team that gets to the dance on a worst in the conference budget.
Spend additional revenue on what?
Your post lacks specifics? So if we just throw in more money things will improve? In what way?
Recruiting. Support staff. Assistant coaches. Promoting the program. The list is endless
by Michael Rogner on Jan 12, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Recruiting is aready quite good
and frankly the results haven’t been commensurate with the recruiting. When it comes to assistant coaches resources isn’t the issue. Indeed many have pointed to Stan Jones as the coach most responsible for the offense’s ineptitude but we all know Coach Ham isn’t about to replace his long time assistant. So who would ham replace? Much of the support staff as well as promotion are endeavors of the entire athletics program. Basketball doesn’t have it’s own trainers, tutors, nutritionists, etc., the athletics program provides these things. The athletics department’s sports information office is responsible for promoting FSU sports.
No recruiting is not already quite good
You expect to compete against UNC and Duke yet UNC starts 4-5 McDonalds all-americans and we start 1. We get 1-2 semi-elite recruits a year and UNC/Duke get 3-5 of the best high school players in the nation. Big Big difference.
Don't put words in my mouth
Nowhere did I say I expect to compete with Duke or UNC, quite the opposite actually. From above:
“I’m not saying we have to be UNC or Duke but we shouldn’t be a perennial bubble team either.”
Hamilton has had several top 10, top 20 recruiting classes— indeed a few years ago he had the #1 recruiting class IIRC.
Rivals Basketball Team Ranking
2011. #23
2010. >25
2009. >25
2008. #9
2007. >25
2006. >25
So we haven’t exactly had burning recruiting class. Its not like we put together complete classes with good to great players.
Sorry I attributed you to competing against UNC and Duke, I was making a broad statement that if we expect better results something needs to change in recruiting. To do that we need more money to compete in the AAU scene.
Money to recruit host camps/staff/equipment
You name it….Without more money FSU has peaked. What elite D-1 coach will go to a school that gets income of less then 30% of its competitors in conference?
Great piece Michael! Now that we know the problem....
What’s the solution? Hire an offensive mind? Recruit more offensive minded players?
The program is continuing to move forward in baby steps.
But without a significant influx of cash the best avenue for big improvement is blind luck. It almost happened last year when FSU drew weak 1st and 3rd round opponents in the Tourney.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 12, 2012 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
he is not the guy going to win us a championship therefore
he should be fired. period. we suck. 6 losses this year already? really? that’s making progress? horrible embarassment
You fail to see that
as FSU currently stands. There is no coach we could hire that would win us a championship. FSU isn’t going to pull a Maryland football and fire a guy only to hire someone inferior. We out kicked our coverage by finishing 3rd in the ACC back to back years.
by fsugrizz on Jan 12, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Steve Robinson's been Roy's understudy at UNC for awhile!
Maybe he’d come back?
hmmm...
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Never thought FSU adm was ever too concerned...
about moving forward in basketball…haven’t seen anything that suggests otherwise.
Good article. Michael, you deserve a better basketball team and I sincerely hope you get one.
by Buddy Reynolds on Jan 12, 2012 11:49 AM EST reply actions
Good Stuff
Thanks for the good write-up. I’ll be forwarding thisto my homies.
Not enough people seem to understand that the alternative to Coach Ham might fall well below Coach Ham. Of course you might be able to land someone who might have more success…but you might not. First, as you say, a it’s hard to lure a good proven coach to FSU because of the resources the program has. Second, it’s hard to get lucky hiring a good unproven coach (and good luck keeping him here). I suppose one could take a chance…
Hamilton is fine,
if we don’t apsire to accomplish the level UF and many in our conference have. Obviously, most Noles’ feelings about our basketball program are “meh” : Kennedy was here for 11 years, Robinson for 7, and now Hamilton.
It’s only fair, however, to make a change once in a while and let some other mediocre coach get paid. None should have a right to a lengthy tenure. But it doesn’t really matter when that happens, now or later, if that’s our standards.
great write up - thank you for tackling this issue head-on
ive defended ham on here numerous times over the years –
and i know he wont be fired anytime soon
but my biggest frustration comes b/c it appears that ham does the hard stuff really well –
he recruits well vis-a-vis our prestige, reputation and resources
he runs a clean program and competes – which is a lot tougher than it may seem
he graduates a respectable # of his players
he gets college kids to play defense (again, a lot more difficult than you might think)
these are the hard things to pull off -
but despite all these great accomplishments, he cant seem to get them to break a simple 1-2-2 press, or attack a straight forward defense (2-3, or man) w/out turning it over 25% of the time – and we’re not talking syracuse or wvu d here
its that disconnect b/t his ability to do the hard things really well, while somehow unable to do the simpler things that kills me..
but he wont, and shouldnt be fired…
i had the unenviable position of trying to teach athletic college students how to play IM football
trust me, the “simple” things arent really that simple. you should have seen their faces when we tried to play zone D instead of man.
the hard things you listed, like running a clean program, graduating kids, and getting them to play defense, are really not that hard if you have kids who are willing to work hard. thats what i had – a lot of guys that were excited to play and wanted to do well, but didnt have the knowledge base whatsoever to do so. it was frustrating to think that they wouldnt understand the basics, but thats what you get with eager, raw athletes. you have to project how well they will learn these things, and that is just as hit or miss as how well they will progress athletically.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Good article Michael
As usual.
Excepting casual fans, I don’t think there are very many people who think Hamilton should be fired.
My view is the same as it has ever been. Ham recruits great athletes first, and basketball players second, for a couple of reasons. First, these may be the best guys we can get in order to try to compete at an elite level, and second, Hamilton prefers these kinds of potentially higher upside projects. Given our prestige level, we aren’t really competing for guys who are the total package. I get all that.
Where I take issue is what I perceive to be a complete lack of offensive development of these players and lack of accountability for failing to pay attention to detail on the offensive end. For the most part, we have run the same offensive sets with Hamilton, regardless of whether we have the personnel to utilize them effectively. Even your Va Tech article acknowledged (almost surprisingly) that FSU seemed to actually make real, concerted adjustments.
I don’t think Hamilton’s offensive strategy maximizes the strengths and minimizes the weaknesses of our players. I also don’t believe that our players are held accountable for their sloppiness. You only need to look at the turnover issues that have plagued FSU over the past several years.
If we are going to continually take offensive “projects” in order to get the kind of athletes Ham wants for his defense, we need to figure out a way to teach these guys how to play offensive basketball. I want him to bring in a coach who can figure out the best way to maximize our athletes on the offensive side of the ball.
FSU never seems to lose close games that they play well in anymore. When they lose, they beat themselves with stupid plays and bad decisions. As a fan, I don’t see an attention to detail on the offensive aspects of the game and it is incredibly frustrating.
Standing Tall.
by fsu44 on Jan 12, 2012 12:13 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Excellent post
You basically summed up my thoughts on this subject. I lived through the mid-late 90s as a student here and have a very concrete understanding of just how BAD bad can be. It is completely ludicrous to discuss firing Hamilton at this point (although I may have to make a small exception to that opinion if we continue to see “effort” from the team akin to that shown in the Clemson game).
But man alive…is the offensive “strategy” and substitution pattern that Hamilton has gone with for over a decade now to very limited success really the only one this staff can come up with? Is it just me or is our offense very close to the definition of insanity (i.e. doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results)?
This is exactly how I feel
I get that the recruits we get aren’t good offensive players by nature. And it makes perfect sense why they aren’t. I can come to grips with that in lieu of all of the positives Michael and others point out. BUT, why can’t we teach ball security better? Just a little bit… please! I don’t know what it would take to achieve this, but I am not getting paid to. Maybe after all the defensive drills in practice are done have all the players do dribbling and passing drills for an hour? I know it might seem silly to have to teach basic fundamentals to D1 athletes, but maybe it would work? Or do they need a new offensive coach? Seems like that probably isn’t the answer from what a lot of you are saying.
In the end, the TOs are my biggest problem with the team. If we could turn it over at the national average instead of what we do, I think that would result in at least 3-4 more wins per season (with the defense that we play). Sure that number is arbitary and I pulled it out of my ass, but don’t we all agree this is our biggest problem? I’m not asking for guys to shoot like Ray Allen and Reggie Miller or run the break like Chris Paul and LeBron – just don’t turn it over so damn much! Please, I will beg if I have to.
The problem is...
If this were football, the school would spend $$$(competitive salary) to get an offensive guru (similar to giving Stoops a raise). But doubt that will happen with the lack of spending.
Spending less than the Canes? That’s just sad.
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
i think you confused "would" with "could"
as in, the school “could” spend competitive money. we make less than any other ACC school in basketball. are you willing to pull any more money away from the football team, which makes all the money for every other sport? you have to know your good and bad investments, and we have never been a basketball school, while fans spend tons on football. maximize football profits first, and if people start caring more about basketball (like being basketball-specific boosters and buying more tickets for non-Duke/UNC games) we can spend more on basketball. i want to win at basketball, but not at the expense of football and everything else that depends on football money.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
I think most people who pay close attention want him to hire more youthful
more technically proficient assistants. Not necessarily fire Ham.
However, Ham appears to be a pretty loyal guy with no intention of shaking up his coaching staff.
If Ham made a move to bring in a young offensive guy with the proper pedigree, I think most of us would get off his back and even probably support an extension for him beyond 2014.
Standing Tall.
What offensive guru do you think FSU can afford?
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
nobody that would stay longer than 2-3 years and be unknown before coming to FSU
which means we have to get lucky very 2-3 years hiring an up-and-coming offensive coach, and then hope our reputation is good enough when Ham retires to hire a head coach that fits the same criteria, every 2-3 years. not happening if we whiff on one of those offensive coaches, which is likely considering how hard they are to find. for the roulette fans, we would be putting it all on a corner every 2-3 years to hire an offensive coach, and putting it all on Black 20 every 2-3 years (or less) to hire a head coach.
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Isnt that the problem? He has not and will not.
Like asking Bobby to fire Jeff all those years.
Bobby had no problem with available cash to hire assistants, he just chose not to.
Hamilton doesn’t have that type of resource.
Comparing FSU Football to Basketball is almost like apples to imitation apple juice?
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
For the record
I’m very frustrated with LH. But I realize were FSU is in the realm of the basketball pecking order. Its more then frustrating every day to read the same previews watch the same games and be worried come March. Consistently our defense will be legit. We will struggle with turnovers, force bad/lazy shots and struggle with passing into the post. It is what is it is.
If we could hire someone better I’d be all for firing Leonard and moving on, but we simply can’t.
by fsugrizz on Jan 12, 2012 12:38 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
IMO just cannot expect to...
A.) Give football coaches raises every year
and
2.) Raise money for indoor practice facility for football
and
D.) Say with a straight face to another basketball coach “we will do everything in our power to give you all the resources you need to build our basketball program.”
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
So we are saying that there is nobody in America who is a better coach than Ham who would come and work for his salary? come on people
I think a lot of us (and MRogner spcifically), are pointing out the potential downside:
there’s no guarantee a coaching change will be successful; it could make the program worse (see the Robinson years). There’s more than ample evidence that this is possible.
Come and see the violence inherent in the system!!!
Funny you point out the Robinson years
because some said the very same things about getting rid of Robinson.
Ham is a great recruiter, good defensive coach but he hasn’t shown he can coach offense nor has he shown he is willing to bring in any assistant coaches who can. No amount of good defense can overcome the weak offense and turnover proclivities Ham’s teams have shown. My main concern is I don’t see any plan in place to improve the weaknesses of the bball program. The notion that the program will continue to progress if only it had more resources is too pie-in-the-sky.
Really?
People were defending Robinson’s ACC record (3rd in the ACC since expansion) and his NCAA tournament appearances to defend his employment?
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
Not permanently.
I’m sure you could find someone who will coach our team for a year to scout the ACC while using leverage for a big contract at a Mid Major.
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Be afraid to reach higher because we take the chance of falling lower?
We have already given in to the fact that we cant be any better than we are havent we? Come on guys this is shameful.
See maryland football
when you have unreasonable expectations you fall flat on your face and become the laughing stock of a laughing stock of a conference.
Why? Improvement has been slow, but steady.
If that’s shameful it’s because your expectations are not based in reality
by Michael Rogner on Jan 12, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
accepting fate implies knowing the future and accepting it.
Perhaps your statement should read:
Michael, do you think as fans we should just accept our circumstances and be happy with where we are at?
That answer, in my opinion, is yes.
"I wish you loved me as much as you love TomahawkNation!"
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by freshcollegeboy on Jan 12, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
Just remember
It hurts me more than it hurts you.
"I wish you loved me as much as you love TomahawkNation!"
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by freshcollegeboy on Jan 12, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
By the way I do know
Our fate will be the same year in and year out. When you dont expect excellence then your fate is sealed.
So year in year out
We will be in the sweet 16? That’s what happened last year.
Be the #3 team in the ACC? That’s what happened the last 5 years.
This is our fate, and this doesn’t work for you?
"I wish you loved me as much as you love TomahawkNation!"
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by freshcollegeboy on Jan 12, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
I understand your point
We wont be in the sweet 16 anytime soon, it was a fluke. We do not play up to our talent. I cant help how the level of play is the other schools. I see FSU and the future aint pretty
If ain't pretty means consistently in the tournament and in the top 3rd of the ACC
Then I agree, it’s fugly.
"I wish you loved me as much as you love TomahawkNation!"
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by freshcollegeboy on Jan 12, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
As a fan, whether or not you accept your fate
has nothing to do with the future of FSU basketball. No matter how hard I wish FSU would be a top 5 program and team every year in basketball, and that they play fun, uptempo offense like UNC, it won’t change a damn thing. The only thing that can change our program’s ceiling, is a substantial influx of resources towards the FSU basketball program.
As fans, we can help that by going to the games and donating money as a booster, not by whining that we shouldn’t accept a program that is at its peak in the last 20 years. The simple reality is at the moment we are currently overachieving in regards to our basketball program. We don’t have the resources or the ability to field a top 5 team. The top players in the country do not consider FSU, and why should they. We are not on the same level as Duke, UNC, UCLA, Kentucky, in fact, we’re not even in the same stratosphere as those guys.
So appreciate the Jim Grobe of basketball, and learn to embrace the excitement of never knowing whether each pass is going to an FSU player, or to a cheerleader.
that would be "i reject your reality and substitute my own"
and it is a reference to science experiments, the only place that works. do anything else in a vacuum and you will have a terribly unachievable result
"I guess they have a reputation of being more of a tricky team and not being tough. You hit ‘em in the mouth, and they don’t like it. Other teams that have beat them just hit them in the mouth, so that’s what we started out with.’’ - Nick Moody
Gotta go guys!!!
Enjoyed it. I really wish and hope we do better. Nothing better than FSU sports regardless. I will be hoping that all of your realize that you are wrong and I am right,,,,(insert laughter).
Good Stuff Michael
I understand the frustrations of watching our team play. I share them. I watch us miss bunnies, throw the ball OOB and shake my head with the Fire Ham crowd. But I also see the D compete, night in and night out. We’re 1-1 on the road in the ACC.
Some Summary Points
- The offensive coaching has been terrible. It cannot be said to be a fluke thing; the turnover and shooting issues are a multi-year problem spanning many different players.
- The defensive coaching has been excellent.
- This is a frustrating team and program to watch. An aesthetic issue.
- The recruiting has been good. This works both ways because people wonder why we don’t do more with the 4 and 5 star players we have.
- The program’s record in the NBA draft is outstanding. Again, works both ways. Why not winning more with all these NBA players?
- FSU has gone to three straight tournaments and went to the Sweet Sixteen level last season. One of the best spans in program history.
- The fan support has gone up under Hamilton overall, but it is not what I would call through the roof.
- FSU does not currently have the money or the inclination to make men’s basketball a significantly higher priority. Football is king, and there are funding concerns with even football. FSU is not going to give someone a $20 million deal to lure a big basketball name to Tallahassee, which means the options would most likely be an assistant coach at a big-name program (Steve Robinson is available) or a mid-major coach. The question is whether Hamilton has done poorly enough to justify rolling the dice on a more unknown quantity replacement.
- FSU could have fired Hamilton a few years back, prior to the run of tournaments. I believe FSU would have been justified in doing so and would have faced little meaningful blowback about it. Coaches are well aware that reaching the NCAA tournament is the benchmark for most programs and FSU was clearly underachieving. By not firing Hamilton, however, FSU gave Hamilton the opportunity to earn more job security, and that’s what he did. Before the 08-09 season, I felt Hamilton should be fired if he didn’t make the NCAA tourney. He made it in 08-09 and 09-10. After losing in consecutive years, and with a very talented team returning, I felt like Hamilton needed to pick up a win in the 10-11 tourney to justify his job. He won twice. In my view, that bought him not only security in 2011, but security in 2012. We can’t fire coaches in a fit of pique about one year’s (or one semester’s) results. We have to view the whole picture. Based on what Hamilton has done in the past three years, it would not make sense to fire him even if the 11-12 squad underachieves. We basically need to wait and see how this season ends and then, if this year’s team doesn’t make the NCAA tourney, wait and see how next season goes before we make any final judgments.
Mostly agree.
I believe Ham’s recruiting – though strong – is overrated. And his offensive chops – though weak – are underrated.
There’s also an NBA talent myth. In the Ham era FSU is tied for 6th in the ACC in 1st round picks. Since expansion FSU is tied at 4th/5th, but have the 3rd most wins.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 12, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
That is impressive, thanks for that.
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
by pasadenanole22 on Jan 12, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
Question from somewhat ignorant fan...
Why does Hamm seem to refuse to recruit true point guards? It seems like since he got here he takes combo guards and tries to turn them into point guards – and while Toney and Derwin had some success making that move, wouldn’t a true penetrate and dish guy completely change the way our offense runs? I don’t see Miller developing into that kind of guy.
I guess Loucks can be considered a true point, but that guy really doesn’t look like an ACC caliber player, and the transfer we brought in this year looks somewhat true point guard-ish, but he’s in his last year of eligibility, no? Its tough seeing a team like UF who always has good point guards, and we keep trying to plug good athletes with average point guard skills into that role.
From what I have seen he does recruit them
but the good ones never come.
"I wish you loved me as much as you love TomahawkNation!"
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by freshcollegeboy on Jan 12, 2012 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
The state of Florida currently has two great PG prospects. Kasey Hill was down to UF, Louisville and FSU – picked UF. And Solomon Poole will likely end up at Memphis or Louisville. For kids who have next level athleticism (a Ham requirement) and a polished offensive game – they aren’t coming here.
Ham has to be more creative in his recruiting. Like finding a PG in Alaska that had re-classed and was about to enroll at Cal, but then convincing him to go play in Vegas for a year and then come to FSU. Big time programs don’t have to do that.
by Michael Rogner on Jan 12, 2012 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
And to follow up what has been said
The guys athletic enough for this system, and yet still recruitable for this program, are going to be offensive projects. What elite point guard is going to want to distribute to those kind of guys when they could distribute to the kind of offensive weapons at the elite programs.
It’s a bit of a chicken or the egg thing, but I’d have to imagine that point guard would be the most difficult position for Hamilton to steal an elite recruit.
Michael form Northern California.
Excellent article. Best written piece I have read regarding Leonard Hamilton and his impact on Florida State Basketball.
"You can’t live a perfect day until you do something for someone who will never be able to repay you."
— John Wooden
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
Let me get this straight. For the 2nd time in program history FSU has been to three consecutive Tournaments. Attendance is up significantly. Since ACC expansion only Duke and UNC have won more games. The Noles just brought in two consensus top-100 players and have two more enrolling with the next class. On Saturday ESPN Gameday will be parking in Tallahassee for the 1st time ever and FSU will be playing in front of 12,000 fans. FSU is going to fire THAT guy? Because you don’t like the aesthetics of his wins?
WELL!!! If you’re going to put it like that……
I'll say one thing to people who compain about our "low expectations"
Obviously, we all want an elite program – and be clear, being a lock to the sweet 16 every year is an absolute elite program. That’s like saying playing in a BCS bowl every year is your minimum expectation in football.
What is the best way to get there?
a) Fire a coach that is the third most successful in the ACC and has gone to three NCAAs (or 3 out of 4 if we fail this year). Hire a new guy and hope you find a diamond in the rough that NOBODY knew about and wanted (please see difficulty of other more traditional basketball ACC school have had hiring coaches recently). Have that guy take us to the Sweet 16 for three years. Have that guy leave for a better job.
2) Give Hamilton a chance to continue what he’s doing and make slow progress until kids know FSU as a perennial NCAA tournament team, top tier ACC team, and hopefully top 25 stalwart. Recruits are young, eventually we will be recruiting kids that only know us as that. Give a fan base that traditionally doesn’t give a crap about basketball time to come around to this program – same point, let a couple FSU student body classes pass through that know nothing but competitive basketball, and are willing to pay to keep it that way. Remember, most of the new fans that these last few teams may have created are still in school or their first jobs, certainly not in a position to support the program.
Nothing is going to change about our potential until the culture changes. To me, option 2 is a MUCH more likely option at this point, especially considering we’re well into that process. Could it go off the rails, sure. But I wouldn’t take it off the rails just to try a much more risky option. It will take YEARS to make a cultural change with FSU basketball.
Do you think if we hire a hot young coach (which schools like Maryland and NC State can’t seem to hire) and comes in and somehow takes us to two sweet 16s is going to change the culture in a span of 24 months? Because otherwise, he will be gone, and what happens then? You try to catch lightning in a bottle again?
Because in a process that will take years, a couple of 8-20 seasons automatically resets that process back to day 1. And to me, that makes option A sound like a recipe for FSU having mediocre basketball for my lifetime.
I’m all for hiring Hamilton once he proves that he is no longer clearly on the path of option 2. Until that day, it’s not under discussion for me.
by LouC on Jan 13, 2012 9:52 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
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